 The next panel is on Opportunities for Academic Research. The moderator is Chris Chitzy. And we have five panelists at Druvorowa from Shell, Amy Herhold from ExxonMobil, Shafiq Jaffa from Total Energy. We have Leora Dresselhaus from Stanford and Matt Cannon from Stanford. So I'm just going to turn it over to Chris to run the panel. Good morning, I guess. This is Chris Chitzy from Stanford University. I just want to check in with Richard. Can you hear me okay? We can hear you fine. Great, great. Okay, well, so what we want to look now in our last panel is at Opportunities for Academic Research. And this would focus more on longer term places where we can identify what are the major obstacles to even deeper decarbonization than some of the things we've heard about so far. We want to identify the opportunities for research in science and engineering that will go to maybe longer term, but as I said, deeper decarbonization. And specifically we've got a mixture of academic and industrial speakers today. And we want to look at where are the specific needs by industry that could really be addressed by long term research opportunities at the academic level. And then I think the key question is where does innovation really make a big impact? And of course that's crystal ball gazing, but I think it's important to kind of give it a shot. So that's where we're going to finish off the conference today. And with that, we have five, excuse me, we have five panelists. So we're going to move along fairly quickly. And I'm sorry to the panelists, but I'm going to need to kind of keep you to some fairly strict time limits here. Our first panelist is Amy Harehold. She's a senior advisor for Research Corporate Strategy at ExxonMobil, Technology and Engineering Company. Amy is, like myself, a PhD in chemistry, which of course is always nice to see when you're doing basic, asking questions about basic research. And she's been at Exxon throughout her career in 20 years in a wide variety of research areas. But for the last several years, she's been the director of physics and mathematical sciences for corporate strategic research at Exxon. And I think that provides a really good perspective on how we can look for the longer term opportunities. With that, I'm going to turn it over to Amy. All right, thank you. I'll let me share. I just have a couple of slides here to frame the discussion. And all right, am I in the right view? Yes. You guys see the projected view. Okay. Good. So, so thanks for the chance to participate on this panel. It's been a pretty exciting three days. And I'm going to frame the big picture on what some of the key research opportunities are. And, but before I do that, I actually want to talk a little bit about also how we go about the research, because I think that's going to be important, especially as folks start to develop ideas for new research opportunities. And, you know, and that's if you look at the, you know, over the last couple of days, right, I think everyone's gotten the picture that, you know, the scale of what is needed for industrial carbonization is enormous. And also that the, it's a very complex system with a lot of different needs. And so it's important to think about how we collaborate in the space to be able to go faster. And so, you know, in this collaboration, I think needs to be university, national lab and industry. And the, there's, there's three kind of key factors I want to emphasize to think about, and, you know, the academic research, the longer range research is really all the way over on the left in the discovery phase, but you need to have some line of sight to where you're going. And so three factors to think about one is very interdisciplinary problem, you know, a challenge for every, you know, for every discipline and chemists and beyond. And, and I think what's great actually about pre-court and the new school coming with Stanford is that's kind of a way to do interdisciplinary research on steroids. So please take advantage of that. Another key challenge is whether ideas can scale. And, and we have a lot of, you scale in a lot of ways, but scale here, you know, there's the scale of the industry and of the gigaton CO2 challenge. But here I'm talking about the scale as a verb. How do you go from lab scale up to field scale? And, you know, when you're doing, developing a new process, sometimes it's not obvious what are the killer variables, scientific challenges that might come later. So I think if we want to accelerate here, we need, there's an opportunity to collaborate with industry, with national labs to help assess what are some of those killer variables and tackle them earlier. And the last is the, you know, the need for a system view. And I was so excited to hear Jewel talk about that yesterday. So completely agree that that's important, whether that's the process, whether that's the plant view or the whole integrated supply chain or value chain. So I think it's important for two reasons. One is you need to be aware of the ramifications of making a change in one part and how that can affect others, sometimes negatively, right? If you reduce, you know, if you use less heat in one area, you may have been using that waste heat to heat something else, right? So you need to look at that bigger picture. But I think the system view is also important for the opportunity because if you look back, you know, rather than trying to optimize just one part of the process, it's really important to look at the whole system to understand where, you know, where are the opportunities where I can skip steps or, you know, use fewer pots and pans. So key things to think about for collaboration. So let me just frame the, the research opportunities. And I think we've had lots of really great discussion on all of these throughout the workshop. So first, you know, if we're, we're going to go for electrification, which is a really important option and gives us lots of new tricks. And so definitely an area to, you know, that I think is, there's a lot of excitement there. As we've been talking about and was emphasized again this morning, you know, we really need to increase the reliability of the electrical supply, you know, with renewables coming in, especially if you want, you know, low carbon intensity power. And so, you know, key way to do that, right, is the medium is energy storage, which could be, I think, in particular medium to long duration storage. And in, you know, electricity, you know, doing that with electrons is a key thing. We had a really good discussion this morning on heat, which is a pretty exciting area that's emerging. And so lots of work needs to go on there. And I think also modeling the grid to understand what that looks like it help us make choices, which is, you know, what's the scale of that demand? Where should things be placed? Where should the infrastructure go? And, and also this industrial demand, you know, it's going to be a lot if we really want to electrify and how that couples in with, you know, transportation, electrification, which has been a big focus recently. And so, and so I know NREL and others have been doing this and I think there's more that needs to be done. The next question is once we had the electrons, how do we best use them? And I think, you know, lots of discussion throughout the last three days on one area that I want to highlight, highlight, because I think it's a real, you know, longer term challenge is how do we better use and generate high temperature heat, you know, 850 C and above with electrification. And just to give a little, little concept of scale, physical scale now that photo is a steam cracker being installed at our Singapore chemical plant. And several years back, so you can see the physical size of it. And that's one of 16. And so not only are these, you know, is a high electricity demand if we're going to heat the electricity, but also it's high throughput. So, you know, the products are going through very quickly. And so it's a high flux need. And so, you know, I know the talks this morning outlined a lot of different options. And I think that's a really key area for research. One thing that I don't know if it came up earlier, but I think my panel partners may, may bring it up as well is, you know, if for power conversion and power supplies, there's an opportunity, I believe, to increase the efficiency of the power conversion equipment as well and control, because if it's like 70 to 80% efficient today, you know, that's a, that can be a big issue when you really have a high amount of electricity. And last on this part is just, you know, there's also the opportunity for newer processes that have lower energy intensity. And the real prize here is newer processes that also not only lower the energy intensity, but give us something else, give us better products, give us more selectivity as a big opportunity. And, you know, so advanced separations, for example, to, you know, separate molecules by membranes instead of heat. And again, you got to look at the system view, make sure you're, you know, you're not breaking something somewhere else, but lots of fun there. Last thing on this is that the, the top, the bottom part is the new part, you know, the novel process. The top part is the retrofit. I think while academia usually wants to focus in that myself, as I recall, right, on the new future futuristic process part, the retrofit is so important, given the asset base and the long asset lifetime. And if we really want to decarbonize, we're going to have to be able to do that as well. Last part on the right is just, it's not just electrification. I think we've heard that throughout all of the talks. I won't go into details because I think we've had a lot of discussion and and, you know, we've talked more. I just think, you know, and I'll just put out there, there's a lot of interesting things about hydrogen. I know we've had a lot of discussion about whether or not it makes sense. And of course you have to look at regionally where you are. There may be areas where hydrogen makes sense. And I think as a question is, can we do something with hydrogen beyond, you know, putting it in a burner and, you know, putting it in a fuel cell. So an open challenge. I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's a, you know, there's some interesting white space there. So that I will look forward to the discussion. Great. Well, thank you very much, Amy. And now with that kind of broad introduction to where maybe addressing my question of, you know, what is, what does industry need? I'm going to turn it over to my academic colleague, Matt Canan from chemistry at Stanford. Matt is an associate professor of chemistry. He's also the director of the Tom Katz Center for Sustainable Energy. His research focuses on novel processes to use CO2 as a feedstock for fuels and other areas as well, maybe, but that's most relevant to this, this conference. And he has a strong interest in the commercialization of innovations from the academic sector. He's done some of this himself and is with his own lab mates or lab members. And he, more importantly, I think has really driven Tom Katz to be center for commercialization of academic innovations within Stanford. And I think that's a very major contribution. Matt, take it away. Thanks. Thanks so much, Chris. It's great to be on this panel. I have a couple of cartoons really to share. It's helpful. Yeah, so I'm going to focus my comments on electrifying and decarbonizing liquid fuels and chemicals. Okay, so sort of a subset of the scope of topics that Amy introduced. So let's sort of set it up at the outset. Why do I think this is, you know, particularly important oils, you know, something like 30% of energy supply right now. And even though there's great progress in electrifying light vehicles, nearly all projections indicate increasing demand for liquid fuels going forward in the next few decades and it's driven largely by commerce by heavy shipping and then the production of consumer goods. So I would argue that it is a large unsolved problem in the decarbonization space. What do we do about all of these carbon products that we rely on and will increasingly rely on as global population grows and the economy develops. And, you know, there's a lot of emphasis on using biology. I won't spend a whole lot of time on this but basically, you know, biofuels, biobase chemicals that are limited by, you know, a very low efficiency of natural photosynthesis so I think there's opportunity to harness synthetic systems, take CO2 water and renewable power as the input and generate fuels and chemicals and beyond. You know, Chris asked to identify, you know, what are the key sort of back to basics questions that academia can focus on. And I think the challenge is that there is no one set or, you know, one small number of particular questions or problems because there are so many pathways. So what I'm showing here is basically, you know, in cartoon fashion you have inputs of CO2 and water and renewable power. You have to have some electrolysis. Okay, water electrolysis or CO2 electrolysis. I'll talk a little bit more about the choices there in a minute. And then typically can have a downstream processing either thermal catalysis or microbial transformation to turn that into your final products. We've talked a lot about fuels and chemicals. There was a great session on refining and chemicals yesterday moderated by Matteo. I'll put it out there that you can also make food or food ingredients I should say this is this is an area of increasing interest and also one that it can have a huge impact on sustainability because of the inefficiencies of the current food production system. I think the key research areas I resonate with Amy on this really clarifying and benchmarking the pathways that are available now and their their impact that is far from trivial and I think that requires a lot of collaboration between academia and industry. And then from that framework identifying the opportunities for process intensification that could be a new reactor design that that can be a new catalyst but but all of those insights have to be gathered in light of what is the overall process and pathway look like. And of course in academia particularly in chemistry you know we like to try to enable new transformations and develop catalyst that catalyze reactions that just really weren't possible or very inefficient before those can then open up new pathways. But again those have to be sort of analyzed from the systems level to realize how they can impact the big picture. And then finally I think you know as these systems scale and hopefully succeed. You want to be able to do minimal processing of CO2 you want to use CO2 really as a waste stream and not as a, not as a highly purified chemical. So just one thing I want to I want to point out on this upfront choice of the electrolysis. So, I would argue that that we're possibly at a inflection point for water electrolysis. And so projects, you know, announced recently amount to hundreds of gigawatts it's actually almost impossible to find up to date information because these numbers are changing so rapidly. It is about three orders of magnitude larger than the installed capacity today. Undoubtedly there's some noise and all these announcements, but there's a huge opportunity to leverage hydrogen plus CO2 to go to fuels and chemicals and I think that's going to become increasingly important. If you want to do the transformation directly on CO2, you can take CO2 to CO at high temperature systems. And then there's been a tremendous amount of effort to develop low temperature systems for doing this, although there's, they're currently sort of stuck at low efficiency and low current density. And finally the future is really, can I take CO2 electrochemically to some product that would normally take several steps through other routes. This is really tantalizing. But again, there's there's major sort of fundamental obstacles to overcoming this. So I think I'm just about running out of time here but yeah I just want to reemphasize these these messages that the opportunities really have to be identified in the context of the of the whole system that that one is looking for. And particularly for kind of highlighting, you know, where we can go with with CO2 utilization and the different pathways you've articulated for getting started on that obviously just to intermediates that then go on to more, more developed products, carbon carbon bonds and so forth. But I think it's really important to kind of highlight the the importance of the water electrolysis pathway versus the various CO2 electrolysis pathways. So thank you for that. And now we're going to turn to another academic colleague of mine. It's Miora Dresselhouse Maris who is an assistant professor in material science and engineering and by courtesy and in mechanical engineering. Notably she also it's like the first four of us on this panel are chemists I'm very excited by that has a PhD in physical chemistry from MIT. Mark has of late focused on the study and imaging of defects and dislocations and materials particularly in metals. And it's in this context that she's going to help us look at the opportunities in iron making and the steel industry broadly. And with that I'm going to turn it over to the aura. Thank you Chris. Just to make sure that I'm on track here. How many minutes do I have. So we're working on five but I've got 20 for my discussion with you which I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of because I think already everybody's going to take a little bit more than five it's five people, it's a lot. Please take it away. I'll interrupt you when you are going on to one. Well thank you all so much. And thank you Chris for for your introduction. So, I kind of come at this problem of investigating steel making and looking towards how we can utilize new advances in science and optics and in physics and. In chemistry towards finding opportunities to rethink how we've done these kind of historically older processes within metallurgy. Primarily I've been focusing on manufacturing and beneficiation. So that's the extraction of the ores from ores out of the earth into metal feedstocks that we can use in the subsequent steps. What we find in this industry is that really there's a lot of quite antiquated approaches that, you know, we're making big strides in in moving forward with approaches to decarbonization, but the gigaton scale is really challenging to come up with new strategies towards. So, what I prepared here is a little bit of a case study looking at how that manifests in the steel industry specifically with a little bit of my work that I might skip through now that I see the time limit. So steel is ubiquitous across our society. It is one of the most essential materials in the modern world. In fact, even you know the quality of life in a country is evaluated based on the consumption of steel. However, if we start to look at the emissions that comes out of that we see that actually total emissions globally each year across every single sector, including environmental emissions amount to 8% coming from steel. So, the challenge of course is that that is today, but steel demand is increasing exponentially as modernization and societal progress continues to evolve. So how does this work. I'll speed through this quickly that we start with the mining and extraction then we have to crush and pelletize make that into iron alloy it into steel cast it and then process it. So this is a multi step process, each of which are very large scale processes. And when we look at how that's man that manifests in industry we see that there is kind of three basic types here. There's the basic oxygen steel making which makes up about two thirds of the market share today. There's direct reduced iron and arc furnace which makes up about 5% and then there's the recycled steel which is the largest progress towards decarbonization. Although as Chris Pistorius mentioned yesterday there are some challenges in the sustainability of this approach, because of copper copper impurities and other types of things like this. So if you look down at the energy intensity you can see that you know steel making via the recycling approach has massive advantages, but the blast furnace isn't doing so bad this basic oxygen steel making. However, in beneficiation you, you always have to take that with a grain of salt that carbon footprint is really not just a discussion of the energy footprint, but also of the native emissions from the process itself. And with this you see that actually the iron making in that blast furnace accounts for about 50% of the carbon emissions from today is steel making process across all the different types of technology today. Even though it was not necessarily that bad in terms of the energy consumption. So we have some work to do thinking towards how to reinvent this process, and to look towards the chemical approaches in the long term. So strategies to decarbonize iron making kind of fall into three primary categories that really are based on the infrastructure costs and translation required to get from the lab scale into this large scale at the gigaton scale. So we have things that you know we could implement and actually are working to implement today, reducing the carbon footprint in the current infrastructure there's things like top gas recycling direct iron reduction with sin gases that looks towards natural gas, which is significantly cleaner than coal and things like the recycling industry but but we also have kind of new directions that are starting to build here. So we have iron reduction with gray hydrogen which is much cheaper but still comes with some scalability challenges. We have things going towards biomass blast furnaces and carbon capture. We have longer term approaches that we can see kind of new technologies that can enable a truly carbon zero version of steel making, but that don't actually really enable, or that aren't really scalable on on the five to 10 year term, and therefore aren't any of the same approaches that we can do. So no one solution as a lot of people have said in this workshop no one solution is enough for the urgent timescale of climate change. We really need to be working in all these areas. I prepared a little case study on the green hydrogen direct iron reduction should I go into this Chris or should I. Yeah please give us give us a slide or two on this. So the general approach here is is if you look at blast furnace, the blast furnace as we have it today, or sorry, basic oxygen steel making as we have it today, what you can see is that this entire process, really the lion's share of the emissions from this blast furnace as I mentioned before. This hybrid technology is is the current kind of carbon zero approach that is working on the pilot scale right now. And you can see you go down in orders of magnitude and carbon reduction or carbon emissions. However, this has not yet been demonstrated as a scalable approach so you can ask yourself well why is that. If we go into this we can see that the blast furnace. As we start to reduce this and we replace the coal with the hydrogen it now changes the reactor design as the coal in the blast furnace was the thing that actually created the mechanical stability of this furnace, meaning that we now need to lower the temperature giving us efficiency but making it a much more complicated process to map. So, in the long term we now have to shift from thinking about these established blast furnaces to new approaches that we can do for this low temperature, much more efficient version of steel making. But this requires a lot of fundamental science to be able to scale this process. You can look towards this chemical pathway, but it's not quite as simple as as chemical steps here because as you start to scale up this process, you see unexpected changes and incomplete chemistry that arises from the fact that as you reduce the system, the volume of the system changes by 46%, meaning that you now start to have these this interplay between a reaction moving forward but also thermal transformations change to the kinetics and to the mass transport as the material starts to crack from the reaction as it goes. In my group we've done a lot of work starting to zoom in on what this chemistry goes as and we've looked at kind of industrial systems and built up model systems to be able to understand the kinetics, as they pertain to these unusual driving forces that we're not used to thinking about at this industrial scale, and we've been able to demonstrate that we have a surrogate system that really can map out these representative kinetics, although it shows differences that we're working on understanding and we can demonstrate how they're you know at this low temperature and now different types of chemical mechanisms that are at play, that are starting to compete with each other, changing the performance and efficiency of the of the whole process. But we can go a step further than that in fact we've been able to demonstrate that at the macroscopic scale we can see these interrelated mechanisms based on the rates. But as we zoom in on the micro scale we can see that actually the crystallographic facets that I have shown here in different colors all reacted different rates and show different kinetics which, as we start to zoom in further and further. We eventually see turns into a microstructural evolution that can mitigate the efficiency and performance of the reaction. We don't think of this as a shrinking core model but this is really what it looks like because we have this volume contraction that is totally transforming these these particles as they're reacting. And we've been able to now map this out and map out how the size scales of this process, transition from 10 nanometers all the way through microns scale particles, and we can directly watch that as it happens to start to build this and compile this into these models. We can ask ourselves well, you know how to how does this type of a kinetic model translate to that it's really at lab scale translate to this type of reactor scale model or understanding of this gigaton scale technology. To translate science from the process or the science in the lab to the process at scale. We have to start with model systems like this that allow us to understand the fundamentals that drive the system. And we have to be able to measure and model the kinetics that dominate the process. And then we have to go a step further, we have to be able to implement those types of models reducing dimensionality in different types of ways that we now start to have access to with AI technology. And we can start to build these types of reactor scale models so now we have a reactor scale model and we can start to demonstrate the ability to scale this type of a process. And now the next step becomes demonstrating with techno economic analysis, the appropriate tradeoffs we need to be thinking of to be able to understand the cost benefit analysis of which scientific questions are even worth answering. And then finally we need to have opportunities to be able to build these types of pilot scale reactors at different levels of pilot scales to demonstrate that we can get to a gigaton. So what does this mean I mean the the take home message that I send here is that this takes a long time. And so this type of early stage long term solution must still be prioritized today for us to in 100 years be fully carbon zero. And so, with that, I will turn this back to Chris thank you for letting me talk on a little bit longer. I hope that this helps to spur discussions of kind of a key study on exploring how to actually translate the science this way. Thank you very much, Leora, and I think it's well did take a little more time and same with Matt I think what's, what's nice about both your examples is it shows how in the long term we may be able to reduce the temperatures of many of these key transformations. Obviously by using in both cases I think electrolytic processes to get to a key intermediates in both cases potentially hydrogen, but then be able to do things at lower temperatures but that requires new science so so I really appreciate that perspective. Now we're going to turn back to our industrial participants to get a kind of a closing out of how we kind of close the loop on on going from from the lab to to innovation to to implementation. But now looking at the longer term that the collaborative kinds of things that Amy was speaking about in her presentation. So, Druva Aurora is leading shells effort to integrate renewable generation and storage of electricity for desired power quality within within the petrochemical industry. And he has previously worked in a variety of shells R&D projects from catalysis to CO2 utilization corrosion management many other areas. And, and he now turned has turned his attention to this critical question of electrification so I want to hand it over to him to for his remarks. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks Chris and can you, can you hear me all right. Yes, you're coming through clear. Okay, thanks. So, first of all, it's an honor to be here it's an honor to be listening to all the impressive discussion that that we've had in past two days, and this morning as well. And I must say, I'm very. It goes back to the remark that this is a giga ton. This is a giga scale problem, and this is a giga scale effort that is needed in the next few decades to come. And while this is very daunting, I believe this is the this is the right time as well. This is the right time to one use the electricity to to electrify the processes such that we can decarbonize what we are industrial processes, but also start thinking about alternative uses of electricity in ways that we have not thought of this through and specifically without getting into all the discussion that has happened. Yeah, and all the avenues in which we can, in which we can approach, I would like to propose two areas, which, which I'm very passionate about, and we have we are focusing on this as well. And these are these are longer term research topics to be to be thinking through the first one is what I call as the we are pivoted by the Bunsen burner in the in looking at the chemistry. So the first topic is essentially to think about processes which leverage the electricity. So these are electrically or electricity leveraged processes to be thought about electricity as we know is a is a higher quality of energy. Yes, while you utilizing electricity to as an alternative to all the sources of heat that we have been using in the past is an important task in near term that needs to be utilized, or that needs to be met with all the shelf technologies that we have and a few other technologies to come. We really need to be thinking about how can we utilize electricity in various other ways utilizing. And there are two aspects of this. One is utilizing the higher quality of electricity for process intensification. And the second one is using the abundance of electricity for, for novel chemistries that we that we that essentially were economically unviable because of the higher prices of energy. The first one being the higher quality of utilizing the higher quality of electricity for process intensification. What I mean by that is that utilizing microwaves utilizing plasma utilizing electric fields magnetic fields. We can also use the relatively charged surfaces catalysts and so on to come up with the processes which which can explore a much wider range of process conditions pressure temperature. These these process conditions which were not. We were not capable of thinking in the, in the conventional base. So leads us to not thinking about scale up, but even scaling down so so not pivoted by our conventional ways of thinking. It can be thought about micro reactors where some of these chemistries would then become a lot more viable. That is a long term research area. That is one. The other is on the abundance of of electricity that is going to be available as well. So as it has been mentioned in several places that yes, we can bring the pvs online. Yes, we can bring wind energy online. But to be able to connect them to the grid is is a challenge as well. However, if there are industrial processes that can utilize these bespoke generation assets, then they can be using utilizing intermittent power, but abundantly available to generate products so again thinking about that way, our electricity is generated into the chemical processes. Essentially, in this whole space, we would be thinking about higher quality electricity and normal processes and putting them together. So a multi disciplinary approach between the chemical engineers, chemistry department and the and the traditional looking into into the space together. The second area is really about. We have had electricity for a long time, but we are still learning how to utilize electricity. So when I what I mean by that is that the power conversion systems, which need to be now interacting or which we can utilize to enhance the molecular processes interaction processes is something that we need to be operating at that frequency as the power conditioning systems, which are which are then utilizing higher power quality and higher power intensity is something that we need to be researching upon. These are conventional power converters power electronics, they need to be researched. The battery management systems that the battery storage systems and so on, they all need to be need to be looked upon as an area which requires not just research right now, but a continued research for decades to come. Those are two areas that I would I would like to propose in this basket of all the other ways to look at, and I reiterate them here, the first one being being the electrical power leverage processes. And the second one being an efficient power conditioning system that we should be thinking about for the for the decades to come. Yeah, with that, back to you Chris. Thank you very much. Druva. And that was useful to get us a perspective on where we really need to look long term, and where academia can focus on needs that actually are going to make a difference and I think in both of those cases those needs are cross industries it's not just in the petroleum and chemical sector. And then finally for our final presenter today, we have Shafiq Jaffer, who is the VP for totals corporate science and technology division in and projects in North America, and he is focused on building a long lasting relationship with academia startup companies and the private research companies and so in many ways it's just perfect for him to have him finish this off with a kind of a perspective on how we bring this all back together maybe, you know, kind of closing off some of the things that then Amy opened up for us. And of course I hope he will take us even beyond that but Shafiq, the floor is yours. Thank you Chris. I wanted to kind of group my thinking into a few different buckets I kind of went back through the three days and start first perhaps first with the ruins talk and kind of some of the things we heard also from the speakers just in this session today. Very similar comments is that know when we're looking at still pulling a lot of carbon out of the ground right Matt you mentioned this. We're still having fuel oil demands chemical demands and that carbon ends up in the atmosphere and the environment eventually. And that end of life is a big question mark always for me is kind of what are we really going to do with this. One of the key things here is that the reduce reuse recycle we heard about from Arun is really critical but also we have to think about the waste streams as a feedstock now. Right, you mentioned CO2 as a waste being a feedstock, but we have to think much broader than that and we talk about plastics recycling and that but no we need to think much broader in terms of everything that we're producing coming out of our refineries and chemicals and we're going to be the end of life strategy to really bring that back and close the carbon cycle fully. Right, and this is a big question mark still on the table I think that we're just nibbling at the heels of still fuels, obviously is the gorilla in the room but that's, you know, I think we have a number of we've got to go after there but you know the CO2 as a waste stream not as a pure stream coming into our plants is a big one. And so we have to think very differently about how we look at our feedstocks going forward. The second thing there is also substitution of materials. I mentioned, you know how far we still are from the steel substitution and cement is very similar that trying to find solutions that are going to facilitate the quality of life for the rest of the world to have the quality of life of infrastructure we have in the sustainable countries is not viable with the carbon budget we have no way, no chance. It's a dead end street. This means we have to significantly reduce the cement and steel we use in our infrastructure. And this means that we have to bring in substitutions the polymer composites the wood that are mentioned, but also in terms of architectural design we have to reach out into what is the basic needs and think about new designs for architecture for infrastructure. We have to bring in ways to bring leverage how to take advantage of ground heating and cooling, because the thermal load is a major challenge we have for decarbonization creating and cooling of homes buildings commercial, etc. And so we have to think about really what is that investment upfront from the short term versus the long term to really bring down the carbon footprint of, you know, all our infrastructure and our buildings and that we didn't speak about that much. We're talking about industrial, but in general, you know we supply the fuels and that for all these, these buildings and that we have to think about how we're going to work with our customers to really reduce their footprints. Again, back to this kind of tie it back to last year seminars around carbon management a little bit. We spoke a lot over the three days about kind of closing the cycles which is really flattening the curve. But we have to have a more holistic thinking about how we're actually going to get to a reduction of CO2 in the atmosphere and direct air capture we haven't spoken about much here. Matt you mentioned it about CO2 as a way stream being pulled. But you know when we're talking about trying to work with dilute streams of CO2 with direct air capture. It's a major uphill battle still we're very far from. We have to think a little bit more synergistically with nature inspired solutions here. And how are we going to think about really taking advantage of starting to reduce the carbon in the atmosphere, not just okay we're focused on our own little world of trying to flatten the curves of our scope but really what are we really going to do from a synergistic standpoint to bring down the CO2 in the atmosphere. The other one that I note here is a scale one of the things that you know our previous session to us spoke about this a little bit but when I look at a refinery for us typical size you know you're talking about 10s to hundreds of square kilometers of land area needed to power, whether or wind. And today in Europe, I don't know if many of you are following there's a lot of pushback on due to NIMBY right not in my backyard. There's a lot of people saying yeah I want solar I want wind and then when you talk about okay it's going to be here it's going to be here here's all the electrical lines that have to go in. We don't want it right can't you put up something else can't you put it elsewhere. And so surprisingly nuclear is back on the table and even in countries that didn't even want to talk about it. Last year which is Germany, Sweden, Norway. They're all talking about potential use of nuclear to augment this challenge of NIMBY issues that they're having right. So I think this is again, one of the key things that we have to think about is that land areas demand is huge. And how we think about where and how we're going to deploy renewables to power or retrofit our existing infrastructure existing industrial sites is still a major challenge going forward it's not going to be a straightforward answer. There's going to be a lot of resistance I think from the local and regional. And that brings me to the next point which is we have to think about co benefits. So what is it in it for the local communities what is it in in it for the regional communities that is going to help them understand the value not only for the decarbonization of the industrial sector but what other benefits does it bring for them beyond just the short term jobs and construction right. How do we facilitate the integration for heat for example for the cities or the towns, Switzerland has done this, I'd say fairly well compared to most countries but it's a small country, relatively short distances, etc, but can this be broadly applicable. So we need to think about kind of more co benefits in terms of how we think about our strategies to be industrial decarbonize our industry such that the regional and local communities are really with us, hand in hand. The other one that Amy you mentioned as well as Matt and others and drew as mentioned is the systems thinking. You know if we took a blank piece of paper and we thought about our industry and how you would meet the consumer demand customer demand for the chemicals and fuels. Let me just put this out to the next three billion people are going to be in the continent of Africa. It's one and a half billion is going to be four and a half billion by 2100. We need to do something very different, very new, trying to take advantage of really that growing market to do something in a very different way than we've ever done before. If we continue to copy what we do in the Western countries what we've done, you know it's a dead end street, we're done. We have to rethink the opportunity from a systems level from a standpoint of how the markets are going to be developed the business is going to be developed and then how does the industry really meet those demands in a new way for that continent. And I think this is a big one that's facing us in in a tremendous way that doesn't get enough thinking. And finally, I've started to see a lot more thinking about in terms of how to drive the business development in Africa in different ways than just let's copy and paste what we've done in the past. So this is still early days and I think this is a big opportunity for the globe to end the academics really to to work towards. And the last one that I'll just point out here that, at least in terms of the US as an example of point but it's pretty much all the Western countries. Develop countries is that the long term energy storage we cycle 4000 billion cubic feet of natural gas between summer and winter. 4000 billion cubic feet one kilo of hydro of natural gases 15,000 watt hours of energy and substituting that with solar wind and some form of storage whether it be hydrogen or some kind of hydrogen carrier. This is a massive massive challenge. I mean we can do all the great things of the world but if we can't solve the seasonal energy storage problem. There's no way we solve the carbon problem. And so when we look at hydrogen, you know there's a lot of issues still facing us here, whether it be blue hydrogen and CCS and scale that we've already spoken a bit about. You talk about green hydrogen we're back to the land area, or even simple things like storage and transport we don't have good solutions for hydrogen today. So transport and pipeline still is a lot of question marks storage underground whether it be salt caverns or in depleted oil gas reservoirs still many questions to be resolved. So there's no ubiquitous solution here there's no silver bullet on seasonal energy storage and I point to, I think this is a major major challenge that we need significantly much more research deployed towards. So hopefully I keep the time and Chris, we can have a good discussion. Thank you very much. That was, it was great and it really broadened the opened up the discussion, particularly I really want to come back I mean obviously this last point about storage is going to be critical. But I want to come back to something you said just before that which is that there are new markets coming on. And, you know, from a humanitarian point of view you really want that to be the case you want to encourage and improve the quality of life elsewhere on the globe and frankly if we don't other problems come up. So I think it's, it's really a great opportunity to think about. I'll just use the the old trope of the cell phone how much the cell phone change the way telecommunications works. And the fact that, you know, it came in and didn't even have to displace an old technology it just came in new in large parts of the world. And I think something similar may, maybe what you're pointing to so I think that's a really interesting thing to keep in mind as new markets open up. And I want to bring us all back to, you know, sort of opportunities for basic science and engineering in the academic context. And so I have a kind of couple, I think three areas that I'd like to highlight. And I want to start with something that that perhaps is is almost back to to our previous panel. And maybe a little more advanced than that and that's a question I'll put it this way. What processes can be redesigned, or the, or the processes improved, maybe fundamentally redesigned, such that you get a pure CO2 stream that makes it easier to do things like Matt and others have talked about of carbon capture and utilization or if necessary, carbon capture and storage. And I'm particularly focused on CO2 here but I think there are other way streams that that might be important. And I think methane is another one that that you might think of in this terms how do you design a process so that if you're going to have a way stream, it's really a high value way stream and not something that's highly dilute and going to cost you a ton of money to benefit to it. And so I'm going to actually start with this one by, by, I think we'll start in the same order as the speakers and we'll mix the order up for for future questions but that maybe I could have Amy see whether she has some comments on this idea of higher quality CO2 streams. Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll just start with of course an obvious places with oxy combustion so using, you know, not just using oxygen or enriched air as, you know, to do that and so I think that that's, you know, people a lot of people are exploring that I think that's an important avenue to look at. And I'll just add the, you know, there's the, in addition to the, you know, changing the, the CO2 concentration which is you're talking about which you know makes it more valuable for for carbon capture storage. But you also have the issue of a distributed right I mean some plants have a lot of very distributed lots of different CO2 sources so how to handle that is another challenge but anyway oxy combustion is a good, good place to think about. Great. Okay, so we'll put oxy combustion on the table. And with that I think I'm going to turn to Matt this is obviously key to your concept of how to use CO2 how do you get good CO2 streams. I think it's important to remember in the short term, there are good sources on the on the megaton scale, you know, from ethanol fermentation plants, and from some performing plants as well so it shouldn't be viewed as an impediment to new CO2 utilization technologies The question is, as those scale, and hopefully create more demand for CO2 as a feedstock, what's going to move into to take the place and I certainly think ultimately it has to be direct air capture. And I think the opportunities are, you know, can the process that uses the CO maybe turn it around and say, can the process that uses the CO2, can we relax the constraints on that this really gets a sort of the catalyst with you know whether it's synthetic or or biological, can we relax the constraints on that so we don't need, you know, four nines CO2 coming into the coming into the process. And so I think, you know, the two have to meet kind of somewhere in the middle, but yeah, ultimately the sources be the air that's not impediment on the on the several year horizon. You have a great process that there are good sources today. I think short short term we have plenty of CO2 in the marketplace but longer term I think we will find it's dirty CO2 and I and obviously if the process can handle that that's that's fantastic. Though I think some processes may need to clean it up or not want to process such high volumes of dilute CO2. I would kind of point to the cement and steel industry which produce intrinsically large process missions, and turn it to Leora and ask, you know, are there ways to get those those get higher quality CO2 out of one or both of those processes. That's a great question and I would say it's something that in the steel and cement industries and I'm going to loop in now the critical materials world, where with rare earth element extractions. We think about this a lot because the rare earths come out in carbon, mostly in carbonate type type ligands, where we also are generating, I think it's 12 tons of CO2 per ton of a rare earth. So we think a lot about, I really liked what drew was saying about finding new ways of coupling energy, going from electricity to atoms that have heat or atoms in excited states that there's been a lot of efforts in these industries to think towards those lines. There's that approach to it and I would say the electric arc furnace has has made very large strides in that in being able to use plasma, plasma based chemistry to be able to rethink how we're we're processing this type of reaction. There's some recent work that's come out coming up with new ideas to think towards hydrogen based plasma is how we can do kind of a one pot version of both steel or iron reduction and steel making. And so there's some really interesting things coming out on the horizons towards that. And a lot of it comes back down in answer to your question Chris to how are we liberating the CO2 in this process and which is the step that we can use to get rid of that. Europe has had this top gas recycling program that started in I believe 2004 that has been quite successful in finding ways of extracting out the hydrogen and carbon monoxide and gases in the steel making process that were are simply unreacted. But are still exhausted so that we can at least purify the way streams to refeed in the pieces of the way streams that are still reactive gases. But you know that purifies the CO2 but you still have the problem of the CO2 streams, which kind of gets back to Shafiq comment. I would say. I think that covers everything perfect. Okay, great, great. And, and with that I guess I'll go back to to Druva. Would you like to take a shot at this with respect to, you know the quality of the CO2 stream that's going into various processes or could go into future processes. Yeah, so with respect to the CO2. There are point sources of CO2 that would be that would be. From Qatar so where I was based in my previous assignment, we have the largest gas to liquids plant in Qatar. Over there, you can find a really pure sources of CO2 specifically in the process where we are taking the natural gas and we are creating sin gas out of it. And they would be CO2 sources that point sources that you can really tap into. So, as we start looking into areas where. Where we can utilize the CO2, and this goes back to CC us right so it's a utilization and the sequestration part. The dirty sources can be sequestered, but the pure sources of CO2 should be utilized for for any kind of reaction. And they will be bespoke reactions as well because what is that purity of CO2 is something that it may be mixed with hydrogen and that's a perfect combination for a reaction which goes back to taking that and making sin gas out of it. Or it may be mixed with something else that you can utilize as well. Yeah, getting into a methanol or an ethanol or higher alcohol kind of chemistry. Now, that is that is one aspect. The other, of course, is as I was pointing out here, how would we utilize electricity in a completely different way, not just thinking about the heating applications. And I would point out to one of the review papers that we wrote last year with Texas A&M, which is on a novel reactor. And we are like we are utilizing the internal combustion engine as as a reactor now, also powered by an electrical energy that internal combustion engine can then be looked as as a small reactor. And when I look at the pressure and temperature conditions that we can reach inside an internal combustion engine, which was a combustion engine in the past now it's a reactor engine. You can see areas which are completely unheard of in terms of the both in terms of the time and the pressure and the temperature that can be reached. And what kind of chemistries are going to be possible there we haven't even explored. So that was those are the two points that I would I would say one is of course, every CO2 source that we can look at has a certain purity that can either be sequestered or utilized in a certain chemistry so the chemistry has to be adapted to the source as well. And the second being, yeah, that chemistry does not need to be limited with everything that we have right now, but thinking about chemistries of the future that can utilize electrical power in a very different way. Very nice. Thank you. I just want to mention to those who may be interested. If you put your questions in the chat I will I will try to get to them in the next several minutes. I want to turn now to a, and maybe we'll do this more as a lightning round to to a question, which has been on my mind for very long time, which is, you know, it's great to store electrical energy as electricity and a battery or as heat in a storage device, but can you store it cost effectively as intermediates for the step, you know, using the steps that that you can afford to make intermediate. And a couple things that just come to mind are, if we're going to make method, we're going to make hydrogen with an intermittent process, because the electricity is intermittent. Could you go all the way to methanol? And, and, or could there be innovations and catalysts that allowed you to get all the way to methanol as as or other intermediates maybe not methanol as as as a as a higher value stored product, and one that might be easier to store than hydrogen. And another example of this would be because of the high heat flux necessary to make lime from calcium carbonate. Is that a case where, you know, okay, sure, it's a lot of heat, but you're going to have to apply that heat really quick and in large volumes anyway. Maybe it doesn't matter if you only do it for a third of the day. Now I'm, I'm no chemical engineer and so this may all be very naive but I'd love people's thoughts on the idea of actually storing beneficial intermediates rather than trying to build a separate storage process which has all the complexities of storing either electricity or heat or, or, or even hydrogen as a gas, when maybe you could just store something that you're going to use later anyway. So I just want to let's, let's take it in in reverse order and do it really as a lightning round just one idea of something where you think there might be an opportunity or not maybe I'm crazy and CapEx will always stop you from doing what I'm talking about. So let me, let me take it in reverse order and go to Shafiq first and, and, and then back through the protocol Shafiq. Just a very quick comment on this, I mean we're looking at methanol and ammonia as well as many others and formic acid and others that can be hydrogen carriers and that the big issue here is you have to look at from end to end the system level efficiencies every time you touch and do any kind of transformation you're taking a hit in the efficiencies, and there's a big demonstration now between Asia and the Middle East on ammonia. So it's going to be very interesting to understand kind of what kind of efficiencies they're really able to get across the entire entire chain. And that's the issue is, it depends where you're taking it to what you're going to do with it at the end, or how you're getting your materials at the beginning, and each kind of supply chain there is going to be unique so the efficiencies really are going to be what limit you, and so it's not going to be a ubiquitous solution that this is used for every single problem. So I think that's a big part of it is that every time you look at it for a specific case you can't generalize it. And so you got to kind of think about it very much again at the local regional aspects of where it fits right for the right problem so there's no single answer here, in my view. Okay. Okay. And let's, let's just thank you let's just keep going here. Drew. Yeah, so thanks. And I think somebody mentioned this in the in the in the talk, which was with the fantastic comment that electric that the energy transition can be also thought about the energy digitalization and energy digitalization what I mean by that is as that every every unit of electricity counts. And you can utilize that and you can utilize this in, you can definitely store this in an intermittent way, or you can even store this in products, and it can be as simple as a farmer, getting the utilizing the pump and making sure that you can store that they can be that they can use it to to irrigate the field. So that those kind of storage is also that energy utilization. So when the intermittent, the intermittent nature of the renewable energy will definitely lead to that intermediates part. Yeah, and that those intermediates can be not just chemical but all sorts of products that you can utilize. So I totally agree with that way of storing energy. Okay. Thanks but just to keep things moving Leora. That's a really interesting question and I'm going to answer this question with scientists kind of picture on this that in metallurgy. We often talk about this type of storage of energy in in crystal plasticity which is the science behind storing defects inside of metals to shape them. So we can think about basically the distortions in a material as little point sources of energy that we have stored there that if we heat up the material and meal it will liberate that out or energy back for us to use later in the form of heat or however else we decide to use it. So I think that these approaches do exist I heard people in the previous session talking about phase transition materials, using phase transitions to be able to serve as a type of intermediate. And so I think that these absolutely do exist. This, this comment is maybe not directed to steal or cement, but but it's a really interesting perspective. Thank you, Matt. Yeah, so I, I think I'm aligned with with Shafiq on this one so so so first of all on on the electrolysis capacity factor. I think you can use batteries to buffer it. So so you want the, you're going to size the electrolysis that are run 24 seven you're going to buffer the renewables with batteries that my understanding that this is this is what's done as the large scale hydrogen storage projects in the US. If you, you know, if you're going to take the hydrogen and CO2 and make a make a product I think you really want to make something that's not not storage to go back to electricity but something that's going to displace a hard to decarbonize product in some other you know, be it transportation or chemicals I think it's just going to be too hard to compete with with other forms of electric energy storage. If you're thinking of product as a, as a is going to a product and back for. Well I didn't mean back I just meant to build it up over some, some cycle of intermittency some some utilization cycle but yeah so take your point that batteries may may. Yeah, I think the batteries of advance that it's compatible with making hydrogen and then doing, you know, be a hydrogen to methanol, or, you know, some more elaborate process to get to gasoline or diesel. Okay, I think those are compatible. All right, so you're taking the alternative perspective which is batteries are really just going to solve that problem for us, at least at the chemical transformation level. And, and finally, I'll turn it to Amy, what are your thoughts on this question of intermittency and how it's best stored, or energy is best stored. So, I mean I'll agree with everybody else that there's no single solution, but I think it's, I guess what I would say it's worth looking at and I think you need to sit back and again look at the system view and look for the opportunity. I think the. I think there's a lot of fun to have in this space. I guess the, you know, the challenges also depends on the process in which you do it right if it's an electric chemistry process for example. How do you scale that up and interest some of the, you know, the fundamental challenges so bottom line is, I think that's worth looking at. And I think a system view allows you to look and look for synergies that you didn't think of. And that's going to probably vary regionally, as everyone has pointed out. Okay, well thank you. And then to to round us out we have a question from the audience. Andreas, I'm wondering if you can be unmuted to go ahead and ask your question. Yes, hello everyone. I'm Andreas Madzakus. I work with Shell. I was glad to see it groove and the rest of the distinguished panelists present that topic. I thought one of the problems we discussed is of course for R&D is the availability of adequate and proximal renewable energy, or low carbon energy and one thing that we haven't talked a lot about is the transmission of electricity, or low carbon electricity from areas that have abundant supply, and probably they're curtailing it because they don't know what to use it, to areas that need a lot of it that don't have it. And there may be a lot of a lot of technologies that may be able to develop to transmit it thousands of miles away. I think here the question really is, are there basic academic research areas where we really haven't, we haven't taken full advantage of the opportunities obviously there's policy issues as we heard a lot in the last session around the grid. But there's also just a question of whether the grid could be done differently. Any, any thoughts on on getting electricity around from places where it's abundant places where it's needed. Anyone want to try them in here Amy. Yeah, I'll just I'll just add that, you know, people you know I mean there's certainly probably ideas on novel transmission lines I just I think the, going back to kind of what I was trying to point out that the, we have to think about modeling the grid and what the choices are right because you may mean, you know you may want to. Look at what that infrastructure build would look like and what it will buy you, and or whether you go to other options in places where you don't have renewables, you know, natural gas, CCS and so I think, I think the kind of overall system modeling is going to be important to help assess options. Well, back to the integrated perspective. And with that I think we are, you know, a few minutes over and I want to thank our panelists for really great presentations thank you for providing kind of the long term bigger picture of where we might go to get at this huge challenge. And, and hopefully it's inspired some of the folks on on on on the call to come up with great new ideas and I'm sure they'll be bringing them to map to help him, ask for his help in commercializing them at the Tomcat Center. And with that, thank you all very much for your participation and I will turn this back over to Richard.