 Welcome once again to the breakfast on plus TV Africa our first major conversation for today is going to be discussed in electoral matters And of course the National Assembly the Senate of course, which has given a go-ahead for the use of a direct primaries For of course a Nigerian political parties. They have been certain persons who have spoken against it And of course there's also a group of people who have said yes, that is the way to go of course in the argument For all gangs direct or indirect primaries here in Nigeria We're speaking this morning with the chairman young progressive party on the state chapter Dotton or John Good morning. Mr. John. Thanks for joining us Good morning. It's good to be here. We also have a public affairs analyst. Mr. Katch on Nono Jew Thanks for joining us. Good morning to you, sir Thanks for having me All right, Mr. Nono Jew. I'll start with you and of course, I'd like you to speak with regards persons who have said The National Assembly should not be getting itself involved in intra-party affairs and how Nigerian political parties choose To run their their affairs What's your response to that? Do you think the National Assembly? Maybe, you know, you know, she has gone too far I agree The National Assembly has no right to interfere in internal party matters in regards to how other people in line with the law and existing extant Conventions produce their candidates You have different forms of primaries and these primaries people should be allowed to choose as far as they are Transparent enough as to not go against their stated rules Having said that, I will say there is nothing wrong in the direct primaries It is an arrangement that seems to mimic the original Open ballot system. So I really do not see anything wrong with it What we see that's wrong is the attempt to not turn it around The way the APC has done You will see somebody counting and you will see one, two, ten, fourteen, twenty-six, twenty-seven, thirty-eight, twenty-two That is very fraudulent and then at the end of the day I give you an instance prior to the by-election in ABBA The APC counted about 140,000 persons at its primaries direct primaries When it came to election proper they get less than 4,000 votes So when you start fraudulently counted without it because it's an internal party issue Nobody was going to touch you and then you fraudulently count by your primary had up to 200,000 persons and then at election you now score less than 4,000 votes It simply shows the public that you are not sincere That's the problem I've seen but Generally the Open primary system is a system that we can find to we can do very well and because these things are done on the camera It makes our democracy a laughing stock the way the APC has presented it It is not a bad idea It is the way the APC has tried to parade itself as Exponents of open primary and in doing that abuse the process You see you can all these things are based on perceptions Perceptions are very very important when it comes to political engineering Open primary as exposed as done by professor Mosul in the option A4 Will seem to be clean will seem to be good But when you now abuse it in the counting process You don't care because under the law the law sees it as an internal process Nobody might come to tell you what you do this. It's against the law Then people start losing their confidence in that particular process that looks very good I'm not afraid of open primaries Open primaries is good. And as I said in there The process will get well just as you saw us from open primary We did a very good thing in allowing INEC who had said that they have demanded to conduct Transmission of results from everywhere because if you look at the data sets and how many words you need How many characters you need to actually transmit these are characters that can be transmitted easily by text easily through the satellite System which of course if you mandate INEC they can buy Telephones that can go through the book cellular system and also to the satellite system and Nigeria has hundred percent satellite coverage and satellite phones are available and can be purchased by INEC So when you see fraudulent people telling you that there is no service in their house And yet me have gone to his house and I've made phone calls from his house To other places he starts to tell you that the system is actually undermined by the quality of leadership And that's our problem Leadership selection process is the bane of our democracy. Okay Let's also look at this Between the 19th and the 20th century in the United States some citizens were concerned about You know the type of primaries I mean the way They picked your candidate and as such The system that was in practice at the time and so they clamor for the direct primaries because the system at the time allowed for You know corruption in the political process now looking at because we know the shortfalls of the I mean Indirect primaries as it is The fact that some influential people Hijack the entire system because they do have the resources and then you begin to see the Dollar rain you begin to see people who buy Delegates and ensure that they have a particular candidate the issue of God for darris and thrives a lot in that system with all of the shortfalls in the system of the in the indirect Primaries that that that mode of picking candidate. Don't you think that we should be embracing, you know, the direct primaries as it is I think it's not about what we embrace as I said earlier It's the quality of leadership that guides that process The quality of leadership that guides the process is what ensures the outcome If you have very corrupt people as you do now have In several strata's of a national life leadership Then we corrupt the process if you have people who think about the country and the processes that bring it to a better place and Go ultimately form forge nationhood, then they will do things right. It doesn't really matter the process you use the problem is the Art come is tinted by the benchmark sets of very corrupt leadership So if you do indirect or direct primaries, you can get the same result What the problem is is when corruption undermines the process Then the outcome becomes a tinted and primitive one. That's where I can put it indirect primary because of who we are Seems like it's in your face But then it also has its own problem because there are those who may want to Secretly cast a vote for someone else that when you now make it direct You might still be afraid that if he is seen to physically have stood on social and so persons line that Somebody could harm him because don't forget in our process People do harm other people. You can see the use of threats. You can see the use of violence in an umbrella state You can also see the use of These violence across the country. Well, that tells you is that violent people may be hired to come to centers where Direct primaries are being done And if anybody sees people standing on the line of a candidate they want to lose They will send talks to go there and attack them physically so They are your your your chances of being attacked physically Could be Driven by what the eye sees you to stand if the eye sees you to stand on the line Directly of a candidate. They do not want to win They could come visit you with violence or they could mark you for later the elimination through violence That's why to some of those are some of the problems of the direct primary if you have security and the provision and safeguarding of life and property as We currently do not have in our country Then you can understand that that direct primary could be very dangerous because people could now be persecuted Simply because they have been seen to stand in a particular line for a candidate that The violent man does not want to win or as it is good Let's let's take a ball that also does have its own backpacks And that's why you saw during those days you're talking about in American history Those days were days where there was white supremacist reactions Against those who stood on lines that the supremacist Violet people may simply say if you stand on that line then count yourself as marked for attack So people are a little bit, you know Mindful about those things when they are Exposed but that does not say we cannot do this. We can Kindly hold on I think you know, you've already started moving into talking about some of the negative Aspects concerning direct primaries, but we would expand on that in a bit Let's bring in that don't you know, so you can also get to share his thoughts dot two or John The chairman young progressive party on the state chapter welcome once again I want you to share your views with regards the reaction that I stated earlier The persons who say National Assembly has no business with interparty or interparty activities And they should be allowed to you know freely choose how they elect their leadership Share your thoughts on that first and then also go ahead and let's know what you think about direct or indirect Okay, thank you so much for having me one more time I think Majorly, we must understand that and what differentiates democracy from Military rule that we've heard over the time is the National Assembly So if in the process of democracy we try to eliminate The National Assembly then we eventually have issues with our own kind of democracy now Anything that has to do with lawmaking is the duty of the National Assembly And you cannot live within the space of the community I want to totally detach yourself From the engagements and the happiness in the community So for those arguing that the National Assembly may not have total control over the activities of the political party They are right to that extent But when you want to take a look at the National Assembly as The the the lawmaking body for an entire community Then I think they may not be totally right. So What the National Assembly has done in my understanding and the understanding of My political party the young progressives party is still within The frame of what they have the power to do Whether the other political parties are carried along or not is a discussion for another time So let's leave the National Assembly what they have done You know minority will always have Their voice they are safe so to say but the majority will always have their way and that's exactly what has played out Now when you want to talk about Direct and indirect primary I think we should be very careful the way we define it so that everybody will understand what it is You see direct primary is actually a method Of choosing a candidate. It is not a form of election. What that means is that Direct primary is not Is not necessarily open ballot or secret ballot Direct primary means that every member of the party Will participate in the process of choosing their leader. They can participate secretly. They can participate openly In other words, the direct primary we have even seen in some other places They've been secret ballot. What that means is that all the members of the political parties They gather together at a particular point and what they did is they gave them a paper You choose whosoever you want And this kind of process is very very important because we have built too many powerful politicians Who directly Decide the destiny direction of a whole lot of people including their members And this is what I mean if you are to choose for example in a political party They have what they call in a party system Secretly or openly there's this issue of statutory delegates statutory delegates are the Appointees of government the commissioners the essay to the governor the special advisor the special assistant and order By determining you want to pick a hundred delegates And you accommodate this statutory delegate. You discover that the 13 40 percent slot of the entire delegate that are supposed to represent the political party In that election. So what happens at the end of the day? It means that the governor or whosoever gives them appointment We eventually decide the direction that the election will go But in this kind of direct primary that to a certain extent may be eliminated So direct primary we give room in our belief as a political party We give room for more people to participate in the process of choosing whosoever will represent their party In a particular election and I think it may not be totally around to say that that will help us agree Okay, still on the issue of direct primaries now some quotas are also saying that this is not entirely to You know promote internal democracy that there's an on the on the interest on the lining interest And that interest could be that you know the legislatures are trying to protect themselves from the governors This is just to say hey, there's an interest they want to protect themselves from the governors So it would also ensure they are returned because in most cases you find out that if there's the governors actually Would probably have delegates and when they do have delegates They can actually dictate, you know, maybe via monies and all of that Who they want to you know go back to the senate or to become a house of rep members And so some people are arguing that this is not just Totally for protecting the interest of internal democracies in political parties But rather it is for the selfish interest of these lawmakers. Do you agree with that? Absolutely, absolutely right. Absolutely. You will see that a fairness we are building to Too many powerful governors and when you want to become powerful Be powerful in the kind of programs and projects that you execute Not in manipulating the political process Absolutely true. But again, there's a gain In the entire process For example, you can be a member of us of International assembly, for example, that means that if you are still not popular The people may still decide to vote against you during the primary But what this has done is to have Move the hand Of It's not that about that. But again, the people will see Continue to have their say and their way Like mr. Knowledge you have said We seek to fall back to the issue of leadership. No doubt about that. But It must be sounded quite correctly also They have also indirectly protected the interests of their party members who we definitely have a say in the entire process of choosing to represent them. Okay It's on on the drill. Let's go back to you now. I want I want you to respond to something That was said by former senator she-hoo sanny He said yesterday indirect primaries are peaceful But it's money Direct primaries are popular But it's chaotic And that's of course his response to the idea of direct primaries or indirect Mr. Knowledge, do you do you agree? With that narrative indirect primaries are peaceful But cost a lot of money While direct primaries are popular, but you know very chaotic Yes, yes, and also talk about the money angle concerning direct primaries, you know, there's people who said It's more difficult to describe that when I hear this in Nigeria Whether it is direct primary or indirect primary money is involved You're talking about the scale of money When it is direct primary We have more people participating When it is indirect primary It's all as prescribed by the rules of the party You could do direct primary And yet It will be delegate base then it delegates directly stand where they want to be You could do direct indirect primary and yet You will still have it As chaotic if you do not then organize yourself. I've said this before When it is direct primary It comes a lot of risk What she-hoo forgot to say Is that it is how the parties choose direct primaries Who are the people that do direct primaries? Is it every membership of the party? It is still based on the rules speculated by the party Direct primaries are delegates to stand So we are just seeing the slope the law has now gone neatly into What come what composition? Those who will vote at the direct on indirect primary will be A party could tell you We are doing direct primary but then direct primary shall be by Special delegates Special this special that so we're still in it. The law hasn't told us it has not been passed to tell us That it has to be all membership for the party. There will be no delegates. Don't forget We've had these issues of delegates. So if the direct primary counsel the idea of delegates And then the law says it counsel delegates Then that means You will not be able to manage that where the chaotic part of it comes in But if the direct primary will still be based on who is qualified to vote at the primary You could call if you have a direct primary for all total 40 participants Those are people who have been selected to come and do this Is different from having a direct primary that you say everybody from the world level cannot line up So these are still what we have not yet finished The political parties are the ones to talk about who can vote at their primaries Direct primary is only about the move Of that election. Everybody will stand in line What does the internal party will say about who is qualified to stand in line? Is it those who have been previously selected? So that's what you have to understand If You come now to elect for a Senate Who are the people that will stand? Yeah, you could have direct primaries initially from the world level And then those who demand will not become the ones who will stand directly at the primary of the local government level And then those who will stand during the direct primary I'm sorry about that Those who will stand at the direct primary It depends. It could be managed Let us wait for the laws to come out All right to you Mr. Um, or John, let's bring you in here. Yes. Sorry, Mr. Ononuju. You may want to get a glass of water Mr. John, um, now I want to you was to get you to speak about um party membership And how this is going to open up, you know another conversation in in the parties on the registration Of their members and how they will be more critical, you know about this now Seeing that they do not want the influx of non-party members to participate in You know the election process, you know in the direct primaries So how how vital is this? Aspect if you remember also, Mr. Ononuju has stated something that happened in Aba Where they stated that they had more than a hundred thousand people participate in the primaries and less than and then about four thousand people vote and so Membership of the parties and their registration of members. How vital is this perspective? Okay, um, I just took part in an election as a candidate of the new diverse party on the 10th of october 2020 And one thing that I need did we must continue to understand the father term Our processes are getting better One thing that I need did um some months before the election was to ask All the political parties that had intended to do a direct primary To submit the list of all the members of the party So when you face Because in our own party in your progressions party before you party owns that register you have assessed Toe to your car the the Was the passport actually to reduce whether you have the capacity to change the passport at any process So what I think we happen is that if we are going to do a direct primary for any office The list of membership of any political party will have first got to ionic Some days or some months before that primary So that because ionic has to be represented in the place of the direct primary So you go through the process you bring your membership card Then they look through the file that the party had earlier submitted to ionic to identify that dot Is actually a member of young progressions party This is my card and my name actually tell us Which the list that the party has submitted before time? I think the direct primary it's just um A microscopic exercise of what the general election should look like so There will be issues here and there no doubt about that You we are not running a perfect system In fact, we do not have the perfect people to run an imperfect system So we are in a situation where we have imperfect people running an imperfect system So there will be issues here and there but people will continue to grow Systems will continue to be developed I need we continue to understand the nyannis and the peculiarity of the Nigerian people So there will be issues here and there not that about that But with what I've told you now, I think ionic will demand for the register Of the political party before any direct primary is here and you that you are coming to vote You will come with uh, what's he called an identification miss that we actually Tell me with a list that your party has earlier submitted to ionic This is not going to totally eradicate issues because of course we still have issues in our election But at least to a certain degree. I think it will minimize some of the problems that might arise Okay All right, Dr. Still staying with you now at your chairman of a political party And the reason this conversation we're having this conversation is because I mean if you look at, you know, the political parties across the country Some element is missing and that's the element of democracy And we know that that has a trickle down effect on what happens because at the end of the day Let's talk about the issue of god fadarism the fact that you have someone Who puts you there against the will of the people in the party and that makes it, you know, almost impossible because Nigerians would always chose. I mean you I have to choose with the options the options that have been presented Especially in a situation where we seem to have, you know, two dominant political parties So really really expand shading or talking more about this. How then can we solve the problem of lack of democracy in the political party and end this issue of god fadarism in our system because you know, at the end of the day The masses would definitely suffer whatever happens in the party You know, it's been pushed up to the people and then it feels like we have no choice than to take it Okay, I want us to start by understanding That it's only in Africa that we continue to demonize the issue of god fadarism And that's because of the fact that greed has become our god ordinarily the concept of god fadarism is a traditional concept It moved from being a traditional concept to being a religious concept If you got married in In a church, for example, if you have to get married in a church There must be somebody who brings you to the altar Not necessarily your parent They is some of these orthodox churches. They even refer to them as your godfather These are people who have experience in marriage Who are supposed the church believes that when you follow this set of people They are going to show you the light of how marriage will work In our traditional settings, we have what we call the king makers. They are godfathers in their right but because In politics godfadarism Is being seen as a man who sits somewhere Does nothing and gets out the gain of government And of course that's the reality That is why everybody wants to run away from the issue of being a godfather or being named with a godfather Now there's a there's supposed to be naturally a leadership recruitment process What does it entail? It entails that a person that is coming into government or into politics or into governors Has somebody is looking up to Has somebody who will give credible advice that can be followed for the benefit of the masses When I run for for a lesson, for example I have to rely on some people outside of the country Because I knew that once I rely on people inside of the country That a lot of people will tell me as a godson to somebody who doesn't have a credible character You get what I'm saying. So the concept of political godfadarism In essence, it's not a bad concept But because everything in Nigeria is about money, bring the money, bring the money, do it my own way I want to gain something from the governor's process. That's why everybody is against it Having said that One of the ways to deepen democracy in a party system Is to allow Party members to have it say I have it mean And one of the ways to do that is to actually prevent somebody's city somewhere From having direct From having financing over the entire political process And I think this direct primary that we talk about to a certain extent we have Impact on that Because in the interest of time Dr. O'John apologies in the interest of time We may have to wrap up here. Ms. Anonju. Can you still hear us? Yes, yes, yes All right. I'm sorry. I know you had to take a short break earlier But we would like to wrap up with you. Dr. O'John apologies because of time Ms. Anonju, can you just quickly in 30 seconds share with us What your expectations are as we continue to fine-tune the electoral process Because that's how some of these things have been described in order for Nigeria to have a cleaner and a finer electoral process Are you excited? Are you looking forward to, you know, a better, you know, electoral process in the next couple of years? Yes the single fact that They've allowed INEC To introduce technology that will help the election Be better from their own perceptions It's the greatest thing we have gotten election wise on that the Buhari presidency allowing for the inclusion of innovations That will make the election better and in that case INEC said that they have the capabilities for electoral transmission of results Electoral transmission of results eliminates the need for collection centers Because rigging of election are normally done at collection centers If you remove collection centers, you also remove the need for people to be hijacked. We laid on the road killed and results snatched and then you also now make it possible that Results generated from boots where there are agents present What will be transmitted to a general collection room Where the tabulations will be done and if possible the Pre-announcements made as to how the projections are going I believe we can build on that I believe that singular Issue of transmission Will go a long way to also give because INEC can employ satellite technology If it does not have cellular reception in any part of the country, we will get to that stage You know as soon as possible, you know, but of course For now it's kudos on the steps that we have taken and of course looking forward to what more Innovations you need to come into our electoral process Dot to our John. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Catch on on the dude Thank you so much also for joining us and for your for sharing your Friday morning with us Looking forward to speaking with you both again. Many thanks for joining us Thank you for having me All right, stay with us on the breakfast. We'll come back and talk a little bit about sports Blessing our categories in the news this morning and she's our focus next