 Okay, so hi everybody. This is so exciting. Welcome to all brains belongs first ever hybrid brain club We have a whole bunch of people here at the statehouse lawn We have a whole bunch of people here on zoom and None of these things are defaults We are going to try as best we can to create an equivalent experience in Zoomland and in real life Because this way because I know my personal experience is that like lots of times I'm the zoom participant when something is happening somewhere on site And I feel othered because I'm like the extra watching so we're we are going to try to have this be Meaningful to all the people. Oh, I should introduce myself Oh, okay Where do you think the feet what's the source of the feedback? How about now is it any better? Okay. All right. I Realize I didn't even introduce myself. I don't know everybody who's in zoomland. So I will say hi I'm Mel Hauser. I am you she they pronouns. I'm executive director here at all brains belong And I am joined by my colleague Sierra Miller And you can have this on your lap Hi, everybody, I'm Sierra Miller. I am a nurse practitioner all brains belong and I'm really excited for this hybrid brain club Yeah, it's really nice to see people in person and it's nice to see people in video and it's a beautiful day out Awesome. So as we kick off this first of a series of three topics where About neurodiversity and the double empathy problem I thought I just wanted to say a little bit about what the double empathy problem is And how this fits into everyday life and then we will start our conversation about neurodiversity and Relationships So the double empathy problem is a term that was coined by dr. Danian Milton who is M a and an autistic researcher in the UK and This term refers to like there's not a one right way to communicate It's that there's a mismatch of worldview a mismatch of communication styles where and in his original study 10 years ago looked at neurodivergent people communicating with one another versus communicating with And neurotypical people communicating with each other and with neurodivergent people and turns out that both groups had a really hard time understanding one another And it's not that that that one group of people have like social skills deficits It's it's um, I think our zoom may be crashed You're still on it. Okay, great. I'll just keep talking. This is what I do anyway, um, so Again, it's not that there's like one default way of being a person and everyone else has deficits it's that really it's about zooming way out and Struggling to perspective Even people with brains who think learn communicate like the majority of brains can often really struggle with perspective taking of And so how this impact how this fits into relationships is it's like everything if it's into literally every aspect All kinds of things and so I am I'm curious and we can we can start with the folks in on zoom What is what's jumping out for you? What what how does perspective taking impact you are relationships in your lives and feel free to type in the chat or Unmute and speak and actually if I turn my if any of us turn our speakers on Finn, what's gonna happen? We don't want to do that. So if people talk they're gonna come out of those speakers Okay, so anyone who's going to speak in zoom world. We can all hear you um and maybe Do you think that you could give the zoom folks a view of the crowd? And if anyone does not want to be on camera here feel free to come on this side Sure, I can ask the question again um So when we think about perspective taking in relationships is that hard is that easy is it uh What's been your experience? I see in the I see in the chat that this is everything I Part of parts in a my relationship is that when we're not on the same page We often don't know we're on the same page until conflict happens So we think we're on the same page or not or not and that's what that's what the trouble Assumption making anything Yeah, um, I think thank you for saying that I think that's that's that's very very common um where um Not being on the same page. Um, it's easy. It's easy to not be on the same page for sure Um, how about how about anybody here? perspective perspective taking um In relationships where if you have the kind of brain that Maybe has a mismatch of communication style with someone else in your relationships. How does that? How's that play out for you? Linda sometimes I find that I Oh, there's one at the table Sometimes I find that things I assumed to be self-evident Are not to the other person and things that they have assumed are self-evident Are not to me. I'm you're gonna say something Vibe I felt your vibe Hello Something I was thinking about with this theme is um When you do have that communication breakdown, so there's friction happening, but you're not talking about the friction um, it becomes very easy to put a lot of that weight on yourself and think that the um Communication mismatch is like your fault like you're like That went so poorly blah blah blah blah when really it's like Both parties are all parties like have their own needs and have their own styles. So Yeah, is this working can people hear me? Yeah, okay. Okay. Awesome. Um, this is sierra I just one thing that this makes me think of is one of my favorite metaphors about narrative origins is comes from the podcast black girl lost keys um, and she talks about Specifically adhd as a mac in a world built for pc's and how they both are really great operating systems But it's difficult to communicate across those operating systems and it's difficult for a mac to work in a world um That's built not for them And I also think that one thing I've been thinking about recently is how there's uh Um There's an assumption of the kind of steps of a relationship whether you're talking about kind of a relationship escalator in terms of romantic relationships or just kind of how intimate certain relationships should be and I think that um For Myself at least for my brain. Um, it can be really hard to figure out how intimate a relationship is supposed to be for the other person and Often it comes across as me either being too interested in the person or Too uninterested in the person um And thinking that I don't share the same thing Oh, just thinking that I don't like I don't want to be in the relationship or I want a different type of relationship with somebody. Um, whether it's a friendship who Is expecting us to talk once a week and I'm thinking oh, I want to talk every day Or I'm somebody who wants to talk once a month and those are all valid ways to communicate But there's an assumption of This type of relationship needs this sort of communication or this type of relationship needs this level of intimacy I think that's really complicated. Yeah, um and Uh, often people share with me that they're that they get feedback from the people in their lives About that there's a right and a wrong way to interact like that It only counts if you are going out to dinner Like it only counts if you are in real life real light like as though it's not real life to have a connection with someone Um on a zoom meeting or a phone meeting or that you go five years without interacting as long as it You pick up where you left off kind of thing. Um, so I'm I'm wondering for for we can we start with the folks here um Has anyone found anything helpful some strategies about um Perspective taking when you're communicating with someone when you're in any kind of relationship that You just you you know, you're not on the same page Anything but helpful Um in the in the chat. Yeah, um in the chat we have Laura saying I once talked to a really happy neuro mixed couple Who live apart monday through friday and together on weekends and it worked really great for their needs um, I think that's a really great example of Making relationship structures non-traditional to work with everybody's brain um when my my husband's sitting here, um When when we met um, so like when seara gave the example Um of like there's no right way to like the stages of a relationship on our first date Um, no, it was our it was our second date that we like covered our like goals of care and our advanced our advanced Directives like we just like got to it like just boom and actually on our second date I had said um, we're we're probably gonna get married And like that was not Typical Uh, but just just got to the point. Um I don't mean to have my back to you Matt Yeah, yeah, because I'm so tall. I'm blocking the sun for you. Yeah. Yeah, I'm for 11. Um for those in zoomland. Anyway Um, I I I think even in um when Even in really long-term relationships where people really know each other very well There's still a lot of Brain rules. Um, so for those there's like there's a couple folks. Um who've not been to brain club before I talk a lot about brain rules versus world rules Brain rules are like the thing you think are universal life truth But you really made them up for someone made them up when you were a kid and like lots of people made them up And kind of passed them along versus world rules of you know Don't hit people in the head. They don't like it. Um, um, but uh You know, I I there's another another there's there's more people in the chat that they they knew they were gonna they were gonna marry Um, their partners on the first. Yeah, sorry. Just get to the point. Great. Anyway, um, but Um, brain rules and relationships are totally a thing like I had so many brain rules like I Loved when people could predict and anticipate my needs So it was like a brain rule that like if you really care about me, you're gonna read my mind Um, that's a brain rule It's it's it's a world rule that people have access needs and that you're supposed to communicate them to people and that I absolutely agree. I think that there's a lot of brain rules both that come from like The view of what your relationship should look like on the outside and the view of how you and A partner whether we're talking about Romantic partner friendship a relationship with a parent or their family member should look um And I think I think about this. Oh, it looks like laura go ahead I didn't mean to cut you off sierra. You can finish I was just rambling I I think if I'm being honest, I think a big challenge for me was Overcoming what I thought other people would think of my relationship um Like I can think of an example way early on that Instead of getting me a bouquet of flowers My partner got me a pack of pansies that you would like plant in the ground and I remember being like horrified Like who would get this like I if you're getting somebody flowers You get them a bouquet of flowers and when we talked about it He was like, well, you can plant those and they're gonna stay alive and you could keep them Like I thought it was nice and I was like mad because I'm like how am I gonna walk in and show my parents Like this is what my boyfriend got me instead of these beautiful flowers And I think it took me a long time to and I think I'm still working Except pansies and and love pansies and not that need to be imagining that that assumed like I I love the paintings, but it was a fear of what other people would think of the way our relationship looked Um, and I think that has taken a lot of time to try and sort out those brain rules versus world rules And what works for us versus what other people want to see Thank you. I think that's a really great point that um, I think that I talk about this a lot with like lgbtq and queer relationships and I think it's talked a lot about in that sense of Um, sometimes your relationship doesn't look like what you thought it would or what other people thought it would And it's okay to grieve that sometimes and it's okay to feel like Even though this is a great thing and I'm really happy in this relationship Like I'm really happy with the pansies, but it's okay to feel a little unsettled by that and it's okay to feel Um, whether you're grieving the loss of a Future self that you thought you would be or whatever ends up being It's okay to feel a little unsettled about that and that doesn't mean that everything's horrible and you're doing everything wrong I think you have to do You're gonna run into a bunch of brain rules You know that out front It helps a lot a lot you know, because I remember I shaved off my beard on one date and Trudy didn't even she was on the date and she wouldn't even kiss me goodbye She was like totally had just a weird emotional reaction to that And um So yeah, anyway, you're gonna run into them And I think if you just accept that that's part of it and you're gonna work through it It helps a lot. That's definitely helped for this when i'm working with clients and um Oh, no worries, um when I uh when i'm working with clients and and i'm gonna talk about this with uh people in my own life too, um a great way to foster communication is to talk um You don't have to get specific about any given subject when talking about values is relating to it and can Well, it can provide a broader understanding and um, if there's a conflict happening It can lift you above the conflict to what really matters Oh, I love electronics backtesting Okay, um, yeah, that's just my my uh Little trick of late. Um instead of talking about the specific subject talk about how you feel about it or uh delve into You know Your reasoning or or you know broaden the conversation Thank you for that. Um one thing so so I I feel like so Much of my own because I don't I thought I was neurotypical until like a year and a half ago and um I feel like I've learned so much about my like develop my identity through social media of like seeing total strangers Like articulate my innermost thoughts like in an infographic like whoa I would never have been able to find the language to articulate this like deep part of my identity Thanks random stranger on instagram. Um, but anyway, um Uh, I saw this this this post a few months ago that I have personally found very helpful And then I've shared with a bunch of people and I'm gonna share it with everyone So a lot of times with um, uh, like like uh communication guidance It's about like the eye statements or like just like like a specific Way that there's like a right way to communicate about yourself and like that didn't really ever work for me. Um So this one When you said this The story I told myself Was this Wow And that has been really helpful because it doesn't have to be rational. It doesn't have to be The same as theirs. It's just like I'm telling you the truth My truth is that the story I told myself a story and it was this and that that's That's gone a long way. We have some we've got some nodding heads here Um, and someone is and a couple people in the chat saying, uh, yes, I've had that experience too. Um, yeah um How about in in zoom world any strategies that anyone else has found helpful about to support perspective taking In in relationships talking about literally everything That's in the chat. Yeah, um in and and um sometimes It's about finding the right time and the right, um The right approach to talking about something or communicating about something like in My in my relationship. I don't know where my husband went. He left without communicating. Um, okay Um, but but like he has the kind of brain that like Legit hates to talk about things Like it's the auditory auditory processing that is hard But like, you know, we could write emails so we can communicate about all the things but not in like, um Often when there's a mismatch between like I have the kind of brain that needs to Verbably, you know, like in spoken speech dump all the things right now because otherwise, you know It's like involves a whole lot of impulse control and working memory and executive functioning to like do the things some other time That's hard too. So kind of negotiating Negotiating that and that comes up with a lot of my a lot of my patience too of especially when when when both members of a relationship have Um, I mean it's conflicting access needs is really what it comes down to Is that if I have the kind of brain that needs Complete quiet at the same time that someone else has the kind of brain that needs to talk out loud right now like that is That that that's a conflicting access need and it's not that one of us has you know, our needs are more important than the other um in the chat Picking the right time and space to talk about something important seems to be very important. Yeah Yeah, super well said and above that Taking for granted that we love each other and that most of our conflicts come for misunderstanding Not from us not loving each other um Taking space to process Reflective listening Another comment asking many questions to get information, but sometimes that can be annoying Oh, yes. Yes Um in and in and in my house and this doesn't relate to uh romantic relationship But even just like my relationship with my five-year-old. I'm not allowed to ask questions Our new thing is we actually we made an access need board on the fridge um and um Her access needs are to not have any Unsolicited bids for attention like Like including like don't wave to her in the morning. She flips her lid It's violating her access needs because she's thinking about something She's like got something going on and for me to say good morning is an interruption for her thing So anyway, I've been trying to follow the thing on the access board Um, and um, I'm not allowed to ask questions. I can wonder I wonder if you want chocolate or vanilla ice cream, but I am not allowed to ask a direct question It's a trigger. It's a limbic trigger and she doesn't. Oh, there's more people in the waiting room Um, you got them. Yeah, all right. Cool Yeah, um I wonder so conflicting access needs like as a theme, you know, we like that I can talk about that all day. It's it's it's the key to the universe. I wonder how how what what what uh, I'll start with the folks here on this at the state house. Um, conflicting access needs in relationships you've been Yeah, Liam Conflicting needs and that has always put a strain in our relationship And I don't know how to describe it. It's like basically everything that I need. She hates and vice versa And I I don't have a happy ending to this story. We just we just we don't talk much anymore Yeah, it's it's it's it's a work in progress Yeah, do you think that she recognizes the that it's a conflicting access needs problem Because even getting that stage might be really helpful I'm not sure I don't want to I don't want to like assume that she's not aware, but I also don't want to assume that she is I don't want to make an assumption or Imply anything about her I so I really don't know Yeah um, and I think that um because because I talk with a lot of people personally and professionally who have strains and relationships, um, and Uh Conflicting access needs as a theme Is just so common and mostly because We're not at a place where it's Talked about a lot of times when you have to like frame it as an access need like everybody has access needs Everybody needs something in order to meaningfully participate in their lives Was that? Oh my goodness Hold on Absolutely I'm gonna what are you still in the process of logging back on? But your mic should If I switched if I if we have sierra's mic be the mic would that be or it's connecting. It still says it's connecting How about now? So uh, so so an access need um, so an access need is What to participate meaningfully in life So this could be things in the physical environment like um, I needed to be quiet in order for me to participate in the activity of thinking um really Um, uh, I might need I might need to know that someone likes me in order to feel safe in a relationship um, I might need Close captioning on when I'm participating in a zoom meeting. So these are all like there's all different types of access needs um and Framing it that way can be really helpful. This is what I need in order to participate in this relationship in this conversation in this meeting um, and Anyway, I um, just just I I I wonder if If that resonates with anybody else about like relationship strain related to two people needing Things that conflict at the same time There's some nodding heads here I was thinking about examples of some dating experiences and um, I guess thinking about it with this kind of a sense of humor, but how I realized thinking back to a lot of The experience says that I feel overwhelmed when there's maybe I get a certain type that it's asking like If I'm getting asking multiple times a day, like how am I feeling or just another and we're getting like Are we a couple yet or are we dating or what's our status or you know, it's like it's like 15 minutes later How are you feeling right now? What's your status? Do you like me? I don't know like I don't know I get over Extremely overwhelmed and they want to just kind of run away, but if I think about it a different way Like it doesn't mean anything is wrong with that person that um, If you frame it, you know as an access need, maybe there's a better way to communicate You know Instead of run your way Relationship I've ever been in before my husband because like my access need is that because I think it's because I have the kind of brain that finds it really hard to know whether someone likes me or not Um, I have a hard time interpreting Um, uh, you know like really not I wouldn't say that I have a hard time interpreting expressions It's that I take in too many expressions I take in like so many like little things and I'm like analyzing like what does that mean and so um I'm just gonna assume that like when you when I when I saw that little mini furrow of your brow That means you don't like me Um, and that's like childhood trauma. That's like what goes on in the world of growing up neurodivergent Anyway, um um One thing that that makes me think of is when um, we have some people saying the same and relatable so very common experiences sounds like um One thing that I that direct things like an access need we're like somebody needs in my case I need like pretty constant communication to know that I'm Somebody likes me and like we've said and my partner does not like communicating or texting especially virtual communication And so we settled on a compromise of three texts a day morning afternoon and night to like make sure that They're alive make sure that they still like me and Then they don't have to be texting me constantly. I don't have to worry all they have texting me for two hours It means they hate me. Um, and so sometimes it's just being able to really kind of openly talk about Those access needs and find the mic sounds fuzzy and in and out Okay, um And so yeah, so sometimes it's just really communicating those Well, I think another thing that this has been making me think of is sometimes I find that um In relationships where people have conflicting access needs. It can be nice for people to take turns masking. I think that there's a um There's an assumption sometimes that like perfect connections or perfect relationships mean that you should never have to mask And I think that's not always true um So much better awesome um And sometimes it means one person taking a turn to like mask and not get their access needs met So the other person can fully get their needs met for 20 minutes and then you switch and Being able to sometimes use that as a way to kind of get everything out. Oh, what is masking? It's a great question. Um I I think there's a lot a lot of different views. I think of masking as a um um putting on A mask whether it's carrying yourself a certain way dressing a certain way using certain facial expressions to appear less Neurodivergent, I guess in this case. Um, I don't know if you have a yeah And I would say that that you might be just I wonder if you're describing something about, um Just like as a negotiation strategy for um, like it's kind of like, uh Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles But I will watch an episode with luna I wouldn't necessarily think about that as masking. I would think about that as like I'm not torturing myself by watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Um, I'm just like suck All right In the back Yeah I'm looking at Laura Lewis. You're my like you're my compass. You tell me whether or the way So it's like, um, yeah, it's not it doesn't give me dopamine It's not particularly pleasing But like I really care about having a good connection with luna So I will watch this show even though like I have zero interest in it Masking I would like and and I guess I guess it's important I think when people use any word is like, what do you mean? You know tell me more about what you mean by that word and so when I think people mean different things by that word Um, so I wonder the way you used it sierra. Was it kind of like the way I was just describing the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle thing as opposed to I guess as an almost an emotional suppression or suppressing your like native reaction where if Um, somebody wants to kind of ramble on about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and I'm not excited about it I'm not gonna say. Oh, I'm not excited about this. I'm just gonna leave. I'm just gonna sit and listen because that's What's gonna make My kid happy or whatever Right, and I think that when oh go ahead sierra. Yeah So for me, this is kind of dovetailing really well with the idea that idea of perspective taking um because um Like If I'm for example watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to experience the Experience it from the perspective of someone I care about and experience what it's like to be This person I care about And how an experience the world through their eyes. That's a that's a um That's a that's a relationship building thing and it's also a like a building thing in me Like I get to experience the world from a different way of being and the Just to totally wing off on this but um The thing that sort of the really geeky part that that I kind of love about the perspective taking thing is like I mean, this is it's like it's how Einstein discovered relativity It's like he experienced he looked he is like everybody else looked at the world of subatomic particles as like big people who and and subata and Through the what it was like to be a subatomic particle from the perspective of massive Beings and Einstein looked at the world. They've discovered relativity by looking at the world of subatomic particles through the world of subatomic particles And so and and what would it be like to be a subatomic particle? If I were a subatomic particle, how would I experience the universe? And so what we're really talking about we're talking about this incredible This incredible way of experiencing life And and so I guess in some ways if I do this this if I some some ways if I think well, I'm I'm suppressing myself but in other another way I'm I'm really I'm sort of I well I'm turning myself into a pretzel but but but but to experience the world Through a lens that I couldn't experience it unless I turned myself into a pretzel Einstein was autistic Yeah, yeah, um, by the way, you just made me care about physics For the first time in my life That's amazing Comment in the chat for me Masking is sometimes matching the energy of the people around me so as to not upset them Yeah, yeah, um, and I think that so and there was another comment in the chat a couple of ago about masking as a survival strategy So when we talk about that masking like we really want to discourage masking for purposes of like I have to hide my true self in order to survive like um You got to leave that environment And it's unfortunate because there's so many people who don't have control over their environment So masking as a survival strategy Um, like it's not safe to unmask Um, and this comes up in all kinds of settings and it's because people don't really understand brains They don't understand what you know, they don't understand what stimming is they don't understand what dysregulation manifestations look like across people in different settings and it becomes It really is a survival strategy Um comment in the chat I think the default is that the neurodivergent person needs a mask or to change to meet a neurotypical person's needs I like the idea that the responsibility is on both people to worry about meeting the other person's needs Yeah, yeah, it or and meeting your own needs In order to fit in and be liked. Yes, liya. Right exactly. So so um, many people grow up There's a video that I think that I I I I don't remember when I played it. It might have been in internalized shame Bring club a couple months ago. Um, I'll find it Where there's a kid like a middle school kid giving a talk and everybody was at that brain club the middle school are talking about like Masking to fit in and be liked and it was like the saddest video But I mean, I mean there's kindergarteners who mask already. Um, because The message is is being given explicitly or implicitly that somebody's fundamental way of being in the world is wrong and broken and needs to be trained out of and that's that's not good for mental health like at all and and and and masking or camouflaging sometimes it's it's um, it's it's referred to and just a A trigger warning briefly for the concept of suicide but masking and camouflaging is There's research that shows that that is independently correlated with Suicidality and so anytime people are being given the message that they need to hide their true selves. It's it's it's very bad for mental health That other thing that I think is frightening is that I think masking is the primary message being put out there in like marriage counseling and couples counseling Like if you have a neuromics couple, it seems like that's the go-to mentality is that the that one partner needs to mask and That will solve the problems and it seems like that just makes everything a lot worse Yes Right, and that's this this double empathy problem is is really turning that on its head So many people who end up in traditional Marriage counseling couples counseling whatever that Laura said that is the message that that people get and you know, I hear this from my patients all the time And it's right. It's terrible advice Um, and it's that you know, this person needs to change this person needs to do the thing and as though there's one thing to be done Laura, I'm wondering can you speak at all about about you about your research study? About the neuro mixed couples. I would find that so interesting related to this Yeah, so um, the study that I did was on um, neuro I shouldn't even say neurotypical partners, but people who identify themselves as neurotypical and identify their partners as neurodivergent Um, this was all by self-report. So I didn't and I think one of the really important disclaimers right off the cuff is that A lot of the people who I interviewed so these are like the the supposed nt partners the neurotypical partners um A lot of their partners weren't even self diagnosed. So these are partners that are saying I think my partner is autistic um, but basically what these participants were were sharing with me was That things went really well in their relation. I'm sorry. I've got some noise in the background Things went really well if they looked at their partner as an equal and they saw it as this mutual reciprocity type relationship where they're a team and they each hang on that They each have needs and those needs are different and that's normal and that's okay um, but the more that they look at their partner's needs and kind of logical and more that they viewed it as like their disorder and they have a problem um, the more two more talk relation relation anything I'm surprised um And the less and less happy the the person who identified as not autistic became in the relationship um, I could go into a lot more detail, but that's the gist of it and that that that that makes so much sense that if you view someone you're in a relationship with as having Pathology like that's not gonna That doesn't really contribute very well to co-regulation. Um, and it It's disappointing and and not surprising um One of the other things that happens also is that there is and again, this is this is I think going back to brain rules Of what it means to be an adult There are so many brain rules about what it means to be an adult. So often um People will share with me. Well, you know, my husband should be able to Do the thing because he's an adult or you know, my partner should be able to do the thing because they're You know They're a parent and this is what parents do like just brain rules of like what it means to to Be a person um, like when when really we're really talking about guess what one and five people has executive functioning differences at least, you know, so Being an adult. Um, what when people use that they are often referring to like This is what it looks to have typical executive functioning skills, but Many people do not Um in the chat, there are so many marriage and couples counseling books and messages out there that basically focus on how to work together to Quote help the autistic person to basically look less autistic in essence. Just totally ignoring that person's needs yeah and um that That's not good for the health of the couple for the health of the individual for the couple of all the For the people in all the couples lives Yeah, I wonder in zoom world. Um The the idea of like so I just we have about 15 minutes left. Is there Anything that's standing out to folks about access needs perspective taking brain rules or something else We haven't talked about entirely about about relationships that That is on anyone's mind Feel free to i'm actually looking at the screen if you oh laura go ahead I'm sorry. I feel like i'm dominating but one more thing from my research I just feel like is really important to say is that there are a lot of online support groups out there for neurotypical partners of Autistic or neurodivergent folks And there I would just tell people like if you're in a relationship and your partner's thinking about those or you're thinking about those To be really really cautious. Um, a lot of them are actually kind of paid groups in disguise as support groups And they end up being a lot of venting and bashing and negative stereotyping and Pretty toxic places. So I would just really caution people before going to those as a place of actual support Thank you for saying that linda I want to share Some advice that my dad gave me for anyone who needs to hear it. This is a dad speaking And i'll share my dad with you He said to me linda beth Just because everyone tells you you're wrong It does not mean that you are in fact wrong So Take that I think that there's also this element of just um Learning to trust your intuition like a lot of people who Get the message over a course of a lifetime that that that You're wrong. You're doing it wrong. You don't know the thing like you you you really Predictably lose touch with intuition Um, and a lot of times is like, oh well, you know, it's just maybe it's just me but or and really like the invalidation from The environment leads to self invalidation of not not trusting your instinct go ahead lamb I was told that basically my whole life by schools When people would have conflicts with me I was always the one in the wrong from their eyes always the one who just misunderstood And it and it finally I realized how Ridiculous it was in my first year of university. I was told well Why did you expect people to follow quiet hours? And I was like those are the established rules this time. It is not me And now I'm I'm able to see a little bit better sometimes when it really isn't just me books ever Um is bernie browns. I thought it was just me, but it isn't Um and like talking about shame shame the you know the profoundly You know the powerful negative emotion of feeling defective and deficient And like one of the most powerful things you can do when you recognize feeling shame is to tell someone else because almost always they will say Me too. And then the shame is like automatically dissipated like pretty quickly In the chat, I think it's less that specifically And more that neurotypical is the default. And so we're all taught to act Neurotypically. Yeah, thanks for saying that lia. I mean when um often we get um We get calls and emails from community members being like do you teach social skills like No, um, we do not we bring people together based on their shared interest because guess what there is not a Universal like default set of social skills when you bring people together based of shared interests You talk about access needs and you you know, you don't violate people's access needs other people's access needs That's the only world rule of social skills um is yeah Um, we had um one one of our one of our junior advisory council members a nine-year-old I said, what do you think we should do to help kids feel like they belong and the sweet little love said You just let us do what we love What like what do you mean? And he's like if I just you just let me do what I love and you let that go Like really it really it really is that that's simple Um, and so when you like bring people together in like a group and you're like oh All you you don't know how to do that thing. Let me train you how to do the neurotypical social skill thing like guess what not good for mental health In the chat, I I'm having trouble scrolling. Um Yeah, I think the chat was talking a little bit about being shocked that their advice Um that there is advice telling people to pretend to be something that they're not in an intimate relationship. Um And laurid said that it's the default in the medical model to focus on treatment rather than co-adaptation and accepting differences And then social skills is a limited meeting in the neurotypical world. Absolutely And uh david wrote um that this is very helpful My oldest kid's partner is autistic and they mask all the time and is moving in It will help me understand that I need to tell them that they don't need to mask Oh, that would be the like like the single most beautiful and supportive thing And it's possible that that that person has never been told that ever Um, what what a gift That you will be to them Yeah, good. Yeah I was just um thinking about um this maybe the success rate for Couples when they're both neurodivergent like I've been thinking for a while That's like the only way to go. I mean not saying the only way but Uh, would it make things a lot easier? You know, um terms of being understood Sound issue Nina. I think what I heard you say um was that I was picking up context clues because it was breaking up every other word But that there's an alternative to being told that people need social skills training. Is that what you were saying? Or did I miss that? entirely if It's something like Would you mind saying it one more time? I'm sorry to ask you to repeat yourself. I want to make sure I miss you no problem Yeah, I just I've been thinking for uh over a while like Is it just much easier just you know, what are the success rates? When the couple when they're both neurodivergent, you know, I mean we're talked about people that don't know We'll talk to people who are I guess mixed um terms of their you know status, but I mean is does that make things like dramatically easier? I feel like I connect more naturally to people that are also neurodivergent neuro can absolutely um, so um I think it depends on where people are own self awareness in any type of relationship if you can if you're If you come to understand your own brain your own needs and you're working on niche Construction designing your life based on your brain's needs in your environment in your relationships in your work and your play and your everything Like yeah, that works out pretty well. Um when we have um situations where there are you know multiple neurodivergent partners um and one is coming to self awareness and Others are not just not in that place of the journey. Um That is when there can be some of the most um rigid adherence to brain rules Because brain rules we all make brain rules and in in in life because brain rules make us feel safe And we hold on to them when we feel unsafe And if a brain rule is helping you you keep it if a brain rule is not helping you you might consider making a new brain rule but And and this will come up. I think in um in two weeks when we have the neurodiversity and employment brain club Um, uh, I have so many stories where like people will be like well, I got fired from this job or like Oh, you know this conflict with my boss and it's like yep that was possibly multiple neurodivergent people with brain rules with conflicting access needs um and Some of them knew it and some of them didn't um, but remember we're talking about one in five people um who thinks learns communicates in a way that substantially departs from the like So-called typical brain even though that's I don't think that's a thing But the brain that like society has deemed um, you know Yeah, the story that's been created. That's exactly exactly right. Um Yeah, um, um, so so um autistic adults being taught their whole life to act a certain Way, so it's like stunting growth never able to develop a true self until um Until there's often some kind of critical shifting point And i'm just growing up to Megan's point as an autistic adult Please keep space for people who continue to mask often It's unintentional after so many years of having to have learned social skills aka masking hard to turn it off absolutely um and um often so in in my experience And this is certainly my experience as an autistic adult. Um, and it's the experience of many of my patients People first learn that they are autistic in the context of something called autistic burnout Which is um, uh, reaching, you know, profound levels of dopamine deficiency Disregulation mismatch from the environment and the people in it that basically it's a disintegration of executive functioning And you need executive functioning skills to mask And so when you lose the ability to mask That is often when people, um, may be more likely to manifest more quote stereotypical medical model definitions of autism That's how I got my diagnosis And you know, I I sure did showing up the way I show up now, but I didn't used to show up that way I used to have like a pretty intense like very Very Just so kind of professional mask because in the medical environment it is completely unsafe to be anything else You are actively shamed for anything else So I really appreciate everybody coming Um, um in zoom here on the steed house a big thank you to orca media for making this possible and um, I'm super excited that um This is our largest ever brain club like this is so cool and you know, um, I and and and people say it can't be done That there's always a default and then like a sidebar But I don't I don't think it's necessarily true and I really appreciate all of you being here tonight to make that so Thanks, everyone, and we hope to see you next tuesday um, uh for more more neurodiversity and uh family Dynamics next week, um and the week after neurodiversity and employment Yeah, thanks everybody