 Good morning to you and welcome back. It's time for youth and politics. And of course today we get to talk about something we have for long been talking about corruption and of course fraud. Well, since the 1965 gay mares scandal, we have had a series of these corruption scandals coming all through from the gay as I mentioned and of course the golden bug, the famous one, then now we have the recent. Of course the NYS and the most famous Aral and Kimmural Dam scandals. Well, what have been leading to all these kind of issues? What is the role and the responsibility of young people in combating corruption and fraud? This morning I'm joined by a panel of quite informed people and persons who have been in the field and still are in the field. Of course right to my next is Aslan Jiro who is a fraud examiner and of course an investigator and the project manager at OCS. OCS is the Ojiambo Consulting Services Group and of course right on my right hand side far far right is Kavere Bahru who is a political analyst. Good morning. Right then next to him we have Mr Collins Ojiambo who is a forensic investigator at Ojiambo Consulting Services Group. You don't need to hold it in the mic. I want to begin with you Collins. Let's begin the conversation. Corruption has become the song of the day. We have had scandals after scandals after scandals. What do you think is leading to all these issues in the country? I think the main thing is lifestyle and cultural. In the sense that everyone wants a good life and what has happened over time we've glorified that the only way to make a success is by having money, the big thing, the glamorous living. Now because of that everyone is actually rushing to a mass wealth and if you are a public servant or you've been working this is the fear of poverty. You are looking and going and retiring what will happen to me. So you want to amass to build security and then where the society has also messed is people say this person was in office now look at, he doesn't have anything. What does it inform? The guys were there saying now I don't want people to say that I don't have anything. Let me amass I build security for myself and my family so that I can show guys that actually I was there in office and I'm someone who's worth respecting. So we have a wrong measure of success which is heavily get towards money and material things regardless of how they've been acquired. Is it a question of success or is it a question of the people that you need because often times we have as we were talking alone outside of the set we talked about the issue of the private and public sector. Now we have made it look like it's a public sector thing. What are some of the things that we need to consider when also talking about the private sector? You see what happens when it's a public sector. The main area where corruption takes place is through procurement. So when public sector is doing procurement they are basically doing it with someone in private sector. So if at all if it's something as basic as a bribe, the person paying a bribe is not from the public sector, from private sector. So the thing is that you cannot have public sector corruption without a player in the private sector. All right. We thought I think it's time for me not to bring in barrier. But the corruption index for Kenya is at the rate of 143. That is where we stand. And when we consider countries like Botswana they are far much better than we are doing. We cannot consider, we can of course consider the population, of course, looking at South Africa, Nigeria, but Kenya is at 143. Nigeria is at 144 and the population is quite significant. What is not happening? Well, good morning and thank you for having me on the show today. And I can see that in Kenya there is a lot of hard work when it comes now to corruption, not even on fighting. People are working hard to be corrupt. People are working hard to be corrupt and I think all the systems are favoring corruption in the country because when you look at even the three arms of the government from the executive, the legislature and even the judiciary first, let's look at the executive. What is it that, what roles have they put to implementation such that we have a good will from top, from the president to the cabinet to fight corruption. We are seeing that these are the same people who are employing and recycling people of corruption cases and we have seen them even from the ones who are with the scandals previously that the same people have been brought back to the government on the legislation side. Do we have strong laws which are there to make sure that even those people are corrupt and even those people with intention to be corrupt, they are scared enough. I think that the punishment for corruption is not punitive enough to scare anyone. Actually it has become like a reward because looking at the governors and the senators, we have people who have long history of corruption and these are the same people who have wandered either with votes or even with planned state positions. Exactly, but now we have now changed the lens that even we as common monainchi we have a role to play in terms of fighting the corruption and that's why we think that as we are talking of other people from even the other arms, let's look at even the common monainchi, what role do we have as the people. This is now we change the narrative and the paradigm, we have a paradigm shift whereby we start with integrity to start with us so that the people in trust with the leadership, these are the people with clear integrity issues and no corruption. Alright, Kaberia talking about the paradigm shift that you need to have. My question is Kaberia, we have seen the president coming out category clear and saying that we are going to fight corruption to our best. He brought in DPP in all in Haji, we have seen so much radical changes. We have seen arrest and even the latest we have seen people being evacuated from their offices. Well, I think to be honest and you know we are all living in this country we know we understand the politics and workplace inside and out of this. There is a very big difference of starting out in public holding a microphone like what I'm doing and seeing that we are fighting corruption and there's another arm whereby you don't just speak but to move with action. Having a DPP is not enough. Having maybe a DCI strong decision is not enough but now we need to see you know when you are the president you are in charge of the government and the state. You should move more from just threatening it drawing ones which are scaring but also coming and see what action are you taking as the president because president can veto powers and do so many things but now the president himself is the one who is appointing those people who have been in the corruption. We've seen him even recycling some of the commissioners like allow me to mention Kazunku Kambi. Kazunku Kambi was saktas as he is sometime back because of some corruption at the NSSF but now the same person has been recycled to bring him the same corruption as a commissioner in the National Land Commission. This is a presidential appointee so I can't see a good will or a strong will from the president himself to fight corruption. This is just a narrative to Shuga Koti Dings just to flavor beings to put some chocolate so that we can be able to see that he is fighting corruption but on the ground we need to fight. Alright before I come to you Elsa let me come to you Collins. He has talked about several issues about the system and the laws and everything that comes with it. Do you think the government has put across stringent measures to try and combat corruption? When you talk about measures one thing the most fundamental is the law. I think in Kenya the law that we have currently is enough to work with. What is lacking is implementation and what is just mentioned about the good will. With the current law we have a good framework on paper we have offices that are supposedly independent but the good will is where the problem is. Over the last two years we've seen a lot of publicity in terms of the executive and also from the president himself in terms of the support but still we have a long way to go. Why is it that through our system we are unable to punish offenders? What happens when you're looking at any vice? A human being will want to rationalize that is this thing beneficial or not? If it's beneficial and he said about rewarding see if I'm rewarded for being corrupt I'll continue being corrupt and even the one who is not corrupt will say everyone knows he's corrupt he was hounded out of office or he stole this and that but then after going through the processes he's still being rewarded. So you have more people even now looking at it as a positive as something they want to engage in because the reward is there. We will be talking about the three arms of the government especially the judiciary which has been quite alleged with so much of issues but let me bring in Asa and Asa I want you to talk about the issue of we have been talking about the public sector let's talk about the private sector and the issue of corruption and fraud what's your take on it? Okay good morning and thank you for the opportunity I'd like to first say that the notion of that fraud and corruption happens in the private sector is not 100% because I think it's the same way it's been perpetrated in the public sector is the same way that it's been perpetrated in the private sector and people tend to dwell so much on what's in the public and forget the private the private sector I mean and thus the perpetrators of fraud in the private sector they tend to understand that these guys do not even look into us they do not even try to recover our assets yet we are perpetrating behind closed doors and all the focus is on the public sector so as we are looking at fighting corruption and fraud we should also consider the fact that things are happening in the private sectors the perpetrators know that the private sector is closed and that people are just dwelling in one sector Do you think the private sector is far much worse than the public? I can say it's far much worse but it's just behind the public sector Kabere lemi bring on board because I understand also in the private sector what she is mentioning about the private sector do you think there is something need to address? Well I agree with you that the private sector is not left behind when it comes to even matters of corruption and all that simply because as it clearly put it we have you know government does business with the private sector and as a matter of procurement government cannot procure things directly from other manufacturers in one way they need to come now to the private sector these are the limited companies and all that now looking at two factors which are so much affected by the corruption one is the procurement and the other one is the human resource human resource in terms of employment we've seen a lot of nepotism tribalism and all that and it's a pattern which you see it's recurring in so many private sectors that some of these people at the top either having people from their tribes and all that that's corruption by itself it's the other side on the procurement I mean the private sector I run a consultancy company and some time when I even try to bid for tell us from the government there are so many bottlenecks which are put for you so as to make you vulnerable to pay the price which even a simple document as even the pre qualification and all that always omit that the process has been made so rough and vigorous such that now you have something which you should get in hours it's made to take days so you'll be vulnerable even when someone ask you for a bribe and not everyone who has the ethics and the moral standards to even resist that so it's something which is there touching the both hands but it's mostly driven by the public sector it's the public sector which drives the corruption in the private sector simply because they have put it as a blackmail for you to be able to penetrate this or this then you really need to talk to our rules so that's something which is there and it's just in black and white it's a matter of fact which as the situation is now Alright with what you've mentioned Elsa do you think it's time that we redefine what corruption and fraud is because most of the people probably even them who are some of us who are watching they think corruption is just a matter of stealing billions of money and then you are walking out here as mentioned in a potism has talked about even so much do you think it's time that we really talk about what corruption really is? Yes I think it's high time that as a nation as a country we should start if amending the acts whatever perception is out there for corruption we should put clear stance on what corruption and bribery and fraud is as a nation and as a country Do you think greed is why we are having increased cases of corruption? Yes It all comes to greed because for a corrupt person to go into corruption he or she must have a motive and greed is one of the motive that drives to corruption and all other fraudulent issues College do you think greed should be addressed in as much as we are taking corruption? Actually yes but it's at a very basic level it's at at home You see the things that someone doesn't just become corrupt one day it's a journey Right they begin young That's why you see the cultural system where religion comes in and so on things that are supposed to form children as they grow up they are basically providing stepping stones of the foundation Now what happens is if the focus is so much of its mind we are killing the communal aspect of things you just take it as an example you go to an estate where people live In our traditional setting people used to live together now we live in single dwellings this is my compound this is my gate now it goes ahead to now what I was talking earlier about the lifestyle and the good things of life the more you want the good things for yourself then you are directly to work hard to try and achieve those things but then the more when you achieve what happens is that I want a bicycle when I get a bicycle I feel that this bicycle is not nice I want a motorbike and then I want a car and then I want a bigger car and all that as a human beings we tend to want good things things are just as time is going by you may overdo it everybody has greed in themselves as in wanting things to satisfy themselves as individuals but then if it gets to a point that you fail to see the bigger picture that you are living in a society and its communal that even for example if I have a mansion next to a slam you get it am I living well because the mansion is actually like a factory and its more like even a prison so what happens is when you don't control your greed you will get those things that are satisfying you but around you if there is a people who lack the property he may end up biting and then what happens when corruption is concerned is that you want to get more as I said security and all that but then you are stealing for example from the public all these things all the good things that you want from yourself for yourself and your family you are living with these other people that you are selling from you have a 4x4 machine but the road at the portal which everyone else is using you are getting so the level of greed is a big factor when you are looking at the dark side of things when you are looking at investigations and fraud specifically pressure any form of pressure is one of the things that can make someone become fraudulent and there is good pressure you see when you want to pay school fees you need to pay rent so everyone has some pressure meaning everybody has the potential of being fraudulent because of that pressure but then it becomes too much and the pressure is now negative you see when you want is it a question of how you handle the pressure or rather it's a question of how to just go and steal and solve the situation and move on with life I think everything should be measured too much of anything is bad you're getting and if your pressure is coming from advice you need to satisfy it if you cannot satisfy it from legitimate you need to satisfy that pressure all right Collins let me come to you Asa he has mentioned about culture and upbringing and you of course mentioned about the same Aliland my question is should we really be blaming the government or should we be bringing the parents who are bringing up these children in the context of failure in terms of how we build corruption we can put the blame on both because on looking at the government it all comes to the culture that it has given us as little kids our children growing up what do they find what do they find other people doing what do they find people that they look up to doing it's all about the culture and if my government is corrupt maybe my family is not corrupt I'll grow up in a family that is not corrupt I agree but what will happen when I leave my family and go out to the corrupt government a corrupt government that I have to pay to get a job I have to pay to get a certificate I have to pay even to see someone you know I might come from a non-corrupted family but once I enter the market and find the government or the society or even the private sector that is corrupt then the culture I'll get you know bad morals what they do to the good morals they corrupt so it's two way now that it's two way let me come to Kiberia the ECC was constructed in 2011 from the Kenyanya Anti-Corruption Commission and now we have seen several arrests but as of now verdicts remain with the judges what is not working well I think we've seen a lot of changes in the ECC and some it's even drew the resignation of the commission of the chair like we hand kinesu and before kinesu we hand mumamatemu and then that's now at least wabukala at least has served for some quite a longer time but now looking at for ECC to really function they really need to be a lot of goodwill and support from both the judiciary the legislation because ECC their works is just limited for them just from the investigations and even to some extent in the prosecution draw the DPP but now when it comes to that's left now to the judiciary and now that's why we have we have seen Ayujigap because we've seen ECC doing some internal investigations they have done various documents going even abroad exactly going even abroad they present DPP and the other side will do a very good work and even ensuring the prosecution is done very fast now when it goes to the judiciary now that's the time we are hearing of some funny finds and some things which really which really cannot be able to stand on that sometimes they claim that the evidence is not substantive enough to support the case which I don't think is the situation we've seen that even somebody who is corrupt and with the cases of what the billions is then are fine of 50,000 so it means that whenever I'm stealing let me steal with the 50,000 on top so that that can be able to cater for the fine and the legal fees so we are seeing some mediocrity in that and I think for the ECC to be very functional and strong let's have a much sectoral support all the way from just executive I know there's a lot of the backstops with the executive because there's a lot of power in the presidency president has a lot of powers to control various things what motion the president do? well one thing on the president when looking at the powers of the president itself even the ECC itself we've seen the way president himself look at what the good will has given to the DCI the other day in safari pak attendant the tax payers day and the president I publicly stated that I have given a lot of support and have a lot of confidence with the DCI and the DPP and we see that these two gentlemen cannot and no need to urge they are so close to the president there's a lot of support and the good will they are getting such that if DPP cannot arrest you you cannot make a phone call to the president to protect you simply because this person is given like that same powers and privileges which are like by the president but now when it comes now to the ECC matters of corruption sometime you see a lot of protection the other day we saw some politicians members of parliament who are being investigated but because they are aligned to this party or to this community you'll see that there are other powers from the presidency when I say the president is not even the president is the executive when they are coming trying to interfere with the cases they even trying to do some exoneration of the person even before the judiciary takes over so I think presidents should give a very strong good will through his powers and even through the systems that he is controlling what are the systems that you think the president should be focusing deeply on well I think one is the ECC itself one looking at even the budget of ECC and the president has even power to lobby is the party leader of let's say Jubilee which is the majority stake in the parliament and which again he will be able to lobby for them even to get more funding and more support again looking at the direct of public prosecution we also need the DC and the national police service but now there are some reforms which goes beyond the budget and the financial issue they just need a good will for look at the way what Michuki did Michuki to bring the sanity in the matatu sector he did not even require a budget it is required a strong voice and firmness for him to say that I've given an ultimatum of 48 hours or 2 weeks I want to see all the vehicles with safety belts people complied again has not the same when we had the digital migration some people are protesting but finally it happened so that's now the strong will we need from the president just from threat something which is actionable and miserable do you think that can work for the public private sector rather? we need that aggressiveness and boldness because at the end of the day it's the tone at the top whatever the top says shall be implemented the tone is strict the tone is implemented colleagues what do you take on that should we really employ that ok what I'll say is I have a different way of looking at it when you look at ESCC I think most of the investigations ESCC, DCI, they are focused towards criminal persecution meaning you want to punish them on so I've stolen 100 million you go through a process of punishing me how does it go they investigate they summon they define the process they go to the DPP he agrees he takes you to court witnesses come and all that the magistrate of the judge will make a verdict will make a ruling if I have 100 million in my pocket I have a serious watchest to number one manipulate the entire process or pay people or come even to media to shape public opinion but if I don't have that money I cannot do that so why am I saying this I think the ESCC should be focused towards recovering the money punishing is good because if for example you just frozen my assets all my accounts as the case is going on you say I don't have money to stay around and you say I start feeling the pain of stealing which of course has happened before we have seen even the KEMBU governor his accounts were frozen we have seen even him shutting down his company just here right next to us which has happened but now I want us to come now let's exempt ESCC out of the discussion now let's talk about the role and the responsibility of young people in combating corruption and fraud what is their role what is their place young people I think they are the most unfortunate group in our society right now they are the majority but they hold the least stake let's start from our government and the political city how has the government formed via election what is election all about representation the person who has the most numbers to represent the youth have the numbers meaning they play a big role in electing whoever is in office from president to the MCA now during political mobilization it's actually the youth who are mobilized most of the time the mobilization that's the beginning of corruption voter bribery paying money to you see all the things that happen we call electoral practices but they are the beginning because if you go through that process corrupt people youth are being paid money to fight among themselves or to go stone a candidate do all that you are having a candidate who is ready that's their style when they go into office that's what they are going to do and then secondly on elections and youth to do all that and to manage this politics it requires resources so what's happening the money that has been stolen or illicit money is used to finance the youth during the electioneering period so already if the youth are supposed to they can say no they mobilize themselves and choose who they want they can even have one of their own so that they are in and have a stake they have a stake in representation because political campaigns are expensive if I come and splash 50 million, 100 million, 200 million to be elected why am I doing it you see every is an entrepreneur for any shielding you are putting in a venture you need to get returns it has to come back in profit so the thing is that all this money that flows around election mostly goes to the youth is seed money for someone running into office and when this person gets into office the youth will be happy that they have given money and all that they need to get a return on their investment how do they get it public covers so I think for the youth the level of awareness first of all of how what happens in politics during election and how it influences how they are governed on a day to day basis is very important I want to bring you and ask this question we have seen Botswana bringing in measures of how to sensitize young people on how to deal with corruption and from a tender age in their juniors course they are being told about how to deal with corruption should we really employ the same here in Kenya or should we exactly do I think we should employ the same here in Kenya we should start teaching our children from a tender age about corruption because I can say even at for the small kids they might not know that they are engaging in corruption but small deeds like if you give me your pencil if I use your pencil for this class I'll give you Mandazi during break time I know that whatever they are doing is corruption they just think that since they want to get something they need to ask for something in return so I think education is one of the thing that we should focus on and also awareness in our schools not only even in seminars or grown up talks even kids and meeting them in schools having campaigns that cut across secondary kindergarten secondary school I think is a good way to go Are there any other measures that we can take? Yes there are many measures especially for the private sector there are many measures if I can say from fraud perspective as a fraud examiner I think at the top will really can do a lot of changes in an organization even employ educating employees to be aware of what fraud is what corruption is they think that corruption is just bribing a policeman corruption is even your thoughts can also be corrupted not just the deeds but even the thoughts can be corrupted so I think awareness for both employees and maybe the the public can also be a good way to go in mitigating all that it's quite a topic of concern and I don't know Kaberia what do you think about the issue because it's affecting the youth so much considering that the fact that young people are the biggest portion of Kenya's population according to the recently released census what should we address in terms of corruption and the young people what should we invest so much in the young people to reduce corruption in Kenya well thank you so much and one of the things which makes me happy is that and it's really one of the channels which is really advocating and creating awareness and giving space for young people to behave even to speak like we were speaking this one tool whereby we are trying to create awareness and getting some platform to iron out our issues and I wish other media stations are also able to advocate this and borrow this leaf but not looking at the young people as you said these young people are so vulnerable to so many things unemployment and you will find out that unemployment in Kenya is so high at 67% and when you look at all the resources it will go back to corruption this unemployment when you are not financially stable you are so vulnerable to anything which will give you finances so that means if a politician want to raise to power and you are given 50 bob sometimes it's not the mistake of these young people for them to get the 50 bob as per say to be honest about this system these people are so vulnerable they don't have anything meaningful to bring them an income at the end of the day so for us to be able now to bring our own changes young people one is you can be able to fight that by first of all looking for ways of even empowering yourself I think when you are empowered as an individual you reduce the vulnerability sometime corruption it does not really come up even on the grid level because before it comes to grid it means that you should be having something and there is something you want to get but as young people they are positioned by they have nothing even if you multiply zero it will still be zero and so most of the young people they are positioned they want to be on step one but now when you look at even like the way you are talking about providing a police office or if they have a salary what they want is to have more but young people what they have is zero and they are trying to get something but now for you to be able not to be vulnerable for example like for employment and all that I mean the training space at business advisory and I tell young people please look for something just don't despise any form of work if it's selling mandizia, vokando whatever thing because when you have your 50 shillings and a politician gives you that 50 you will have a reason to say no but if you do not have a reason to say no as much as you may have the values they integrated the ethics you will be so much vulnerable and at some point you will think I've seen so many no's and the ones who say yes they are really doing something better than me so the first thing as a young people empower yourself in a means that you'll be able to make an income so after then the other thing is not to change the lens you see it's very unfortunate that with the young people we say that we are the majority but when it comes to making decisions you know we are the most elite you know we have the internet we understand the law more than anyone but now when it comes to elections we have not been able to change that lens to bring the objectivity because we are voting in people who are giving us now the money and you know the ones who has made a name there you know the most famous guy so if you are able to be objective and say let's say these are the issues we are talking about we are young people we need employment for us to achieve this we need somebody to be able to bring in a bill or so on about employment so we are now talking about the things of issues so what the young people need to change first of all our mindset to be able now to look at the issues and not even just things beyond money the money and the tribe we have mentioned something about corruption being a whole something it entails the government and even the young people and everyone else do you think as citizens we have played our responsibility in fighting corruption well I can say some citizens alright some citizens actually the number is smaller than I may even be able to put it and you know the reason why is that you know we are citizens there are things we call the models there are so many like even in the media there must be someone in the media who you look up to when you say when I grow up though I know you've already grown up but now there is always that somebody looking up for direction and for vision and unfortunately most of these people we look up these are now our leaders the politicians sometimes we as the community I heard somebody saying that this you are good as long as you are stealing for us you know there is a community which say now somebody student public and say you know I was stealing for you and people are clapping because I was in government I stole money but it's not bad because I was stealing to help you and now this is what now the citizens have done as long as you are stealing and helping us now you are good that's not corruption I think the public also they have not played a big role because the people have looked at for even direction and the people have given us the wrong image of what the marking scheme should be so but now for us to be able to fight as citizens corruption one thing I always talk about is ethics integrity and the morals you know the mayor of fabric is so broken when we stand on that to be strong enough and we have had some reasonable voices the activists the others who have been able to stand and say no to corruption some people have been asked for a bribe from a policeman and they have refused to pay the bribe and they are ready to face the consequences but now are we ready to face the consequences so that now should be the big question for me I am ready I don't know about others alright thanks very much for that insight we get apparently to wind up because of the interest of time we are farmers spent but I want to give each and everyone of you a bit 30 seconds each and I want to begin with Collins you have done so much research investigations and what would you rather recommend that we do so as to try and mitigate corruption and fraud I think something very simple for everyone in society I don't think we are mad enough or we are annoyed by corruption I was just looking at this you see now we are interacting with us on Twitter when people are annoyed with a product or something there is no matter what venting and you can see how people are annoyed in this country but when it comes to I think we tolerate corruption and we are not very annoyed the moment as a society everyone is annoyed from the elite to the person on the ground it will mean you are actually making the space smaller or rather the room for corruption because the guys who are corrupt you see a policeman will take a bribe today because he took it yesterday and he was paid when it becomes difficult to get people who are paying they also stop asking but then the tolerance level for me is what we need to work on so we have been tolerating corruption each and every single day being a political analyst and of course being on the field in terms of private sector what would you advise? I think what I would advise let me speak to the young people because I know this is the biggest followership for this channel I will never emphasize the need for you to empower yourself and to join association which have a common voice for reasoning for example we have the Kenya private sector alliance we have the Kenya national chamber for commerce let's not ask the question of why it has been functional to some extent because I can say it has been functional because always they do have the round table with the president though not everyone needs to go there but there is a platform for you to be able to raise your views there are other things like lobbying for you to get businesses just a networking forum but now because when you are in an umbrella you have a strong voice as compared to one voice of Kabere here when your voice is in bring you are able to champion and ding switch of common interests so my advice is young people please as much as we are speaking about unemployment as much as we are talking about waiting for jobs please one of fighting corruption is being empowered as an individual start a business do something even your talent can be your business I know it's not a business segment but something which I know it can be able to assist you are economically empowered you are less vulnerable alright from an entrepreneur's mind of course alright many thanks and now winding up with the ULC let me ask you are a forensic or rather a fraud examiner investigator you have dealt so much for some time now should we really employ tough measures and more stringent measures in combating corruption and fraud I can say yes and no at the same time yes because it might work for others no because as long as I have a drive whatever measure you put there cannot stop me so I think as a conclusion what I could say is that we should look at some of as a youth from a youth perspective we should look at other youth activists for example like Boniface whatever he has been saying he has been very strict on the fight of corruption and bribery but what are youth doing condemning him saying if you were elected you would be the same so I think we should believe in the people who are trying to fight corruption and we should take a stand and say no to corruption as individuals not even as an organization but it all starts with the individual alright that has been of course Kiberia, Elsa and of course Collins Ojembo from OCS and many thanks for making such an honor to have you of course well that has that's it for now we wind up and we call it day for youth and politics it's always a pleasure to have you from that's time and this time now fire comes up next and we get to have so much land up for you my name is Garanja Alex we get to do this again next week on Monday see you tomorrow for entrepreneurship Tuesday