 In this session we're looking at China's approach to counter terrorism and we'll be thinking about policies and implications of the current situation. And we have Dr Mei Tian-Rong from the Chinese People's Public Security Bureau, so University of China, sorry. And so please join me in welcoming him to the session. Thank you. Good afternoon, dear friends and colleagues, in fact, it's a great honor for me to stand here in this famous university and speak to all these established scholars and experts and thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. I come from Public Security University of China in Beijing. So as I've known, my talk is about China approach to counter terrorism, policy and implication because of my Chinese accent, in fact, local accent for Hubei province where I came from. So I write my presentation slide in very detail so that you could understand my points clearly, otherwise my accent may make you misunderstand what I say. So when talking about China terrorism and counter terrorism, in fact, there is a very long story. In fact, this morning, Mike outlined some kind of key questions about this. This issue about China and its effort to counter terrorism is getting more wide attention in the national community. The Chinese government responds to this, so in the national community there are a lot of skepticism to outsiders. So the Chinese government responds to this skepticism usually related to the issues of dual standards. When the debate on dual standards seem to contain political and utilitarian meanings, the jargon cliché, one man's terrorism is another man's freedom fighter, reflects the complexity facing media academia and the government personnel in China and also in other countries. So by applying the above cliché to the context, could we say China terrorism is the United States or another country's freedom fighter or vice-visa? U.S. terrorism is China, freedom fighter, my answer is very simple, no, why? Because I want to answer this question. So I argue that generally speaking, terrorism and counter terrorism should be examined with reference to the specific historical and cultural context. This doesn't imply that this paper adopts the relative approach to the study of terrorism rather than that it attempts to take universalist or even the opposite approach to the study of terrorism. The relative approach or absolutitism approach may have its own weeks. The first one may lead to the practical quagmire of dual standards. The later one may negate the cause or dynamics of terrorism in a specific context. So with the above stance, this paper attempts to explore the following questions. Well, I'm bound to explore in detail but in fact some questions finally I cannot or hardly answer in detail. So this question includes that does China face a problem of terrorism? If yes, to what extent? If not, what does it mean that the Chinese government claim is face a terrorism threat domestically or internationally? And the second question is that what approach does the Chinese government take to address the problem of terrorism? The third question, what are the rational and the essentials of the Chinese approach to counter terrorism? How have these rational and the essentials been conceived? And what effects the approach that have been or will be taken? And the fourth question is about I would introduce in China approach in paper, in this paper part three, and analyze the essential approach and its relevance in part four is also specifically address final Australian counter-terrorism cooperation and finally bring forth some suggestions on this cooperation in part five. So I want to address these kind of questions. So let's go to the first issue, China face terrorism is imaginary or factual domestic or international past present. About terrorism facing China, there are different narrative. So one official account from Chinese government. So terrorism threat in China, this is the first source about these issues. There are several important official documents addressing the violent activities perpetrated by some illegal terrorism group, including the VD1, ETIM. In different eros, for example, in 2002, China sent consul issue a white paper in the title East Turkestan Terrorism Force cannot get away with impunity. So this is the first one, also very important one. After that, Chinese government also issue other white paper regarding situation in Xinjiang. So apart from the above specific white papers clearly addressing the issue on East Turkestan to other white people about ethnic unity and the freedom of religion belief in Xinjiang also was issued later. So specifically, the China Ministry of Public Security officially released the name list of terrorism and the organization in three different years. China Ministry of Public Security designated four terrorism organizations and 25 percent on the list. By these channels and products, China clearly announced that they are terrorism incidents inside and outside China. These incidents damage or pose threat to Chinese interests domestically and internationally. And most of these incidents and threats are attributed to these four organizations, basically, or to the so-called three evil forces more generally. So this is China, Chinese government official account. So the second source is the rejection of those accused. So for example, the World Weagle Congress, one of the four designated terrorism organization is very active, is established on April 16, 2004 in Munich and Germany. In this past, in this just July this year, the World Weagle Congress hold assembly in Paris. In fact, before this meeting held by the World Weagle Congress, I just visited Paris and held a meeting with French Interior Ministry about how to jointly diffuse this kind of threat. According to Wikipedia, this organization is found by part by National Endowment for Democracy or NED, which gives this organization this amount of money and money annually for human rights search and advocacy out of KC projects. This organization is a U.S. nonprofit organization founded in 1983 to promote democracy by providing cash grants founded primarily through a large allocation from the United States Congress. So what's the mission of this organization? This organization is to promote democracy, human rights and freedoms for the weaker people and use peaceful, nonviolent and democratic means to determine the political future. So this is the mission of this organization. And another organization is ETIM. In contrast to WC, which claimed to be a peaceful and nonviolent movement for the collective interest of weaker people, ETIM, on the contrary, also known as TIP, or Turkestan, is that movement of openly-autofocated use of violence to overthrow Chinese rule in Xinjiang. And it's definitely in dependence of East Turkestan. ETIM and WC may have some difference. Namely, there are some kind of basic similarity, I think. Both claimed in dependence of Xinjiang, East Turkestan, as they refer to it, denying that Xinjiang is a legitimate part of China. And both citizens both criticized the policy of China, central government in Xinjiang, and both claimed that there are many problems in Xinjiang, such as human rights abuse, intolerance of religious freedom and cultural assimilation. While ETIM autoclared the use of violence, WC proclaimed the nonviolent peaceful movement. The nature and the goals of the two movements are the same. The nature is separatism. The goal is founding the state, the core, as East Turkestan. So this morning, discussion also raised some kind of issues, ETIM and other weaker movement, the difference, but there are differences, but also there are some similarities. The third source is from the outsiders, so there are a lot of doubts. Facing these conflicting views on these issues, outsiders tend to feel perplexed, while some accept the condition of Chinese government. There are still many in person with different backgrounds for various reasons who have raised many questions, casting doubt on issues about terrorism in China. Principally, these questions may not necessarily be limited, but most fall in the following categories. First, the doubt on the existence of terrorism, either terrorism organization or individual terrorism in China. Second, the doubt on the allegation of Chinese government. Are the allegation of Chinese government regarding the legal consistency with the fact? Are the allegation exacted by Chinese government? And third, the doubt on the reason that leads to this isn't of terrorism. Why did this perpetrate the Commit Levine Act against Chinese government, Han national, and others? Is the oppression by Chinese government drawing them to seek religious freedom and justice in other places like Turkey or even the US? Or have they been brainwashed by fundamentalist ideology and maneuvered by some outside force as Chinese government alleged? And fourth, the doubt is about the legitimacy of policies and the measures taken by China against terrorism in Xinjiang and in other places. So regarding this kind of doubt, there are a lot of papers, articles. So and also fifth, the doubt on the motivation of Chinese government to fight terrorism. So some persons say that does Chinese government suppress, wiggle, dissent under the clock of the terrorism? And internationally does the Chinese government use terrorism issue to strengthen some coalition like SCO or to level the trade off in geopolitical dialogues? So a brief of literature could illustrate these above points. For example, I just give some points, like Dr. Sean Roberts examined some works like the work entitled ETIM, China's Islamic Medicine and Global Terrorist threat by Reid and Diana Rasek, published in 2010. So Roberts found that these words are based on the second source as this morning the Roberts said that. And recently released a report published by the New American in July. And this report titled OjiHard is local. What is this file tell us about its fighters also by Nate Rosamond-Bort? Find that contextual evidence in China such as that countries anti-terrorism campaign in Xinjiang could be a push factor for people to leave the country and look elsewhere for sins of belonging. This argumentation resonate on the reason that make terrorism in China. So this is a new one report. And a very interesting one is by Mary Scott Turner because another James. So this report in fact sponsored by US Congress commission on China economy and security issues. So in this report, Turner and Scott systematically introduced the background about terrorism in China and also China perception of terrorism threat policy and bureaucracy. And finally he addressed this issue about Sino-US Contemporary Corporation. And Turner observed that while China does have a terrorism program and has suffered a multiple terrorism attack in recent decades. It is difficult to determine the nature and magnitude of China's terrorism program. In fact Turner visited Beijing several times and I met him at least three times in Beijing and so I talked about something about terrorism and bureaucracy of terrorism in China. But luckily in his report he didn't refer to my name. And because I don't know what my name was referred to. So while there are some kind of doubts, some positive feedback also existed. Also there are many controversy over the issue about terrorism in China. There is still some positive feedback on the issue. In the practical sphere, since September 11 attacks, EDM has been designated as a terrorist organization by many countries. Also in 2002 UN Security Council also cited EDM on the list. And in the primary academic sphere also I just mentioned Todorid and Diana found that EDM existence and activities should be confirmed independently of Chinese government source. Using information gleaned from EDM, no now defunct website reports from human rights group and academics. And testimony from Wiggo Detainee at Guantanamo Bay. So this is I think is a positive feedback. So I just mentioned a different source. I just so I'm very interested in find that when talking about the terrorist threat to China I think it may be considered as a rational effect. This film is Japanese film directed by Akarara Kurosawa in 1950, which won the Oscar award. It's about a feudal Japan, three men shattering from a storm, discussing an instant where a bandit raped a woman whose husband then somehow died. The film's innovative narrative structure records that individual is in the form of four different viewpoints. This film I think is very interesting and also shows some kind of consideration when we consider the terrorist issues in China. So I think as there are different or even conflicting views on China terrorist issues, could this different narrative make the issues become a rational effect? If it did, how could the truth be found and how? So all the above arguments seem to have their own logic of reasoning. These people cannot definitely assess all views or can it be verified some views unequivocally? Nevertheless, these people can use some basic facts to make some judgment, which may be useful to disclose the myth of the Russian moon effect about China's terrorism. So I just want to give out my points. First, there is a terrorism threat to China, which is perceived as great by the Chinese government. This threat date back decades, but in the past it was called something different. In most times it was usually referred to as counter-revolutionary. China did not use the term terrorism or even there were terrorism activities from 1940s to 1990s in China. So Chinese government don't use that term terrorism. Why? I can explain. The reason can be attributed to the following. First, Communist Party doctrine that said power comes from the use of violence. This is the first one. The second, as Karl Marx in Manifesto of Communist Party says, is doctrine. The second one is a gross experience of Communist Party during Chinese civil war, especially during 1920s and 1930s. That is especially the massacre of Chinese communists in Shanghai in 1927 by the Communist Party led by Chiang Lai-shek. Both broke the coalition between Communist Party and K&T. Communist Party led a coalition as the White Terror and therefore launched the Red Terror to fight back. So in this civil war time, the so-called White Terror and Red Terror in fact were used to term this kind of special period. And third, the special service times in Cold War. While the Soviet Union and the US both used proxy terrorism groups, some leftists in Communist Party also saw to reinforce the rule of China in the World Party arena. This example is very obvious in Lin Biao's defense minister. He conceived the theory of exporting revolution. Lin Biao wrote Long Live the Victory of People's War in 1965. The publication, I think, was approved by Mao. So in this article, Lin Biao in fact, outfitted the exporting of revolution to other, to the developing countries. So due to this reason, China usually did not use the term terrorism to describe what is termed today as terrorism. So however, near the end of Cold War, Deng Xiaoping pointed out that peace and development had become the central theme of the post-Cold War era. And the Cold Dog Train, the old dog train highlighting the use of violence in the proxy war had failed gradually. Especially after September 11, human took place in 2001. The new environment in the world marked the critical world share of change in China's narrative of terrorism. So they changed a lot. So China dropped the old dog train which strengthened the politics in command and adopted a new one, which prioritized economic growth to adapt to new segments of time. So the second time change, China's policy and I think the policy's narrative also changed a lot. So in the current era, as the world environment changed, the new scenario shaped the new concept of terrorism and its threat. So this morning, discussion on the scholars mentioned several terrorism attacks and also violent activities in China. For example, Tiananmen Square and the Kuomint Railway Station attack. And also in Wumuqi on this date and also July 5th incident in Wumuqi, 2009. I have a short video, just very short. So this incident, in fact, is a very important driving force for Chinese government to take the hard strike policy. Because it happened just before President Xi Jinping visited Xinjiang. So in fact, just after Xi Jinping playing take-off, the incident happened in Wumuqi. So this incident is considered as a very serious threat to China's legitimacy role in Xinjiang. So I think there are terrorism threats in China. And also this incident happened in China, but overseas there are several big incidents that happened and also changing the perception of China's leadership to this threat. The first one is the Chinese citizen killed by Islamic State in 2015. And this kid sent a shockwave across China. And the second is also in the same year and the killing of Chinese executive in Mali by a violent group linked to have some kind of linkage with Al Qaeda. So this kind of domestic and overseas incident, in fact, I think changed the perception of Chinese leaders. So all these attacks have profoundly shaped the new environment of Chinese domestic and overseas security, greatly impacted the perception of Chinese leaders and the public. So the current situation of terrorism in China may be difficult to understand for outsiders, therefore, a simple comparison between China and the UK may be useful to share light on understanding. Because I think it is very helpful for us to understand. Because before I leave for Australia last month, I met a consul of UK embassy in Beijing. I just gave him very simple information that if you cannot carefully fully understand what happened, in China, you go back to study the IRA in UK, because there are many similarities. So the threat and the response, so UK, once faced the IRA threat and also similarly China now faced EDM and other three evil groups. Also similarly, there are similar response, in fact. UK's response to IRA and nowadays China's response to EDM and three evil forces. There are many similarities, so I just gave some kind of simple analogy. And also, very interesting information is that I've got to see a very interesting film in the name of the father. It's casted by Daniel Dyer Lewis, because in that film, a lot of issues raised. So when I taught in our university, I also asked our university student must watch this film, because this film raised many very important or so, very interesting issues regarding terrorism and counterterrorism. So second, China terrorism and or terrorism related groups, cracked down by policy, by police, have increased nationally since 2013. According to Chief Justice's report to National Assembly, in recent years, these numbers are increased, obviously. For example, the case and the groups and the persons, the groups cracked down or convicted by a court and the persons convicted by the court increased. And third, patterns of MO of most groups could be identified. First, ideology is hybrid of separatism and radical Islam. So it's very important to find out, because for example, in the 1930s and the 40s, and most of these kind of groups, in fact, are privately based separatism. But nowadays, the separatism ideology still exists, but also the new elements of radical Islam, I think, also come together with traditional separatism. So this ideology is a first issue. Second, weaponry, IEDs and knives and trucks and others also use these kinds of weaponry. And the third, recruitment family and friends networked. And fourth, age of members of them are young and feels fancy, most of self-financed, but some of them also get found overseas. And sixth, radicalization dynamics, violent video clips from internet are the crucial tools to radicalize the use. So this is a video released through the internet by ETIM, really increased. And the seventh, travel routes are for the jihadists. The pushing the poor effect makes a successful individual take the form of jihad to move out of Xinjiang and tend to go broadly, legally or illegally. This is the internet report, also from Australia, New Zealand to some kind of a stop in China, Guangzhou, or Tokyo, or South Korea, so then to go to Turkey. But this is a national route, but in China, also the routes from Xinjiang to central China, also there are two different routes, North route and South route. Then North route go to Russia and South route go to Malaysia and the Philippines and others. And the database also very important issue is database. So some research is very difficult to find kind of reliable source of data about Chinese terrorism. In fact, it's real. For me, I also face the problem, because I went to Xinjiang and other provinces in China, also it's very difficult for me to collect some kind of data, why, the reason. First, China lacks the traditional to collect data. The second is bureaucratic obstacles. The third is central and local government delicate relationship. The fourth is between mass media and terrorism. So finally, I just very brief that China dimension approach to terrorism. So the counterlaw of China taking effect this year, they are 97 articles, but in fact, these 97 articles I think can be grouped in only three dimensions. First, there is a policy dimension. The second is a mechanical dimension. And finally is a major dimension. The policy are basic rules, guiding system, building and operation are the rationale of all humanitarian works. The mechanism are institutionalized requirements, organization, procedures and the protocols. And the majors are tools in the means in line with the policy taken to achieve the above goals. So these 97 articles I think can be grouped in these three categories basically. So these five basic rules I will not talk in detail. So, and primarily analysis of China approach. So I think the characteristics of China approach to terrorism can be outlined as this first policy dominated approach. Because in Chinese context, the Ministry of Public Security is centralized, but also very powerful. So some friends from the United States say that in the United States, there are FBI, DHS and other organizations. But in China, all these organization missions come together to Ministry of Public Security. So it's very powerful. The second one is a strike hard campaign approach. The third one is a responsive approach, intrigued by waves of instant. The fourth is top down central to local approach. This approach is determined by the central like the policy police system. And the fifth one will drive approach. What does it mean? One will means that the government dominated the sphere of humanitarian. This is no substantial involvement of public. In other countries, the partnership between government and public is very important elements of humanitarian architecture. But in China, as you know, in most time or so in no time, government in fact very highlights the people's war in China against Japanese nowadays against terrorism. But it's just the idea model. The actual implementation of people's war against terrorism faced some obstacles in Xinjiang and also in region in China. Because you know why? Because the relationship between public and government in fact changing a lot from most time to nowadays. So there are problems with China approach. There are problems with China approach are described as the following. For example, the police dominated considering the other elements of criminal justice especially, and other partners generally are weakened in terms of the role. And also the strike hard approach tends to be at a halt and not legally institutionalized. And the third, the responsive approach may mean that the police lag behind terrorism. So just after an attack or so government response. So why Chinese police want to proactive but I think they lack some kind of key tools. And the top down approach may overlook the locality of terrorism threat in different region and the limited manual space by local actors. And then one wheel driving approach along with the police dominance approach may cause that a passive or a passive of other participating organizations or groups. So these kind of problems are just sketched. And also I wrote some kind of information just suggestion for Central Australia commitment of cooperation. And I will not give you detail. So also I thank for your attention especially thank for your standing my heavy accent and for your comments. And on my personal experience based views and also heartfelt gratitude to organizing of these conference and especially to those friends who helped me and make my attendance today full feel finally. Because without the helpful support I cannot come to you to attend today's conference. Thank you very much. So I'm now turn over to the discussant for this particular paper and that is Professor Roderick Broadhurst from the Research School of Social Sciences here at ANU. Good afternoon everybody. What a tour of the force Professor May Jan Ming provided. I have to say Jan Ming was a real pleasure to actually hear you present this talk. I have to share just a tiny little bit of disappointment if I may. And that's I think probably shared by the rest of us and that is that that last piece we are going to share some of your thoughts about cooperation potential ways in which we can cooperate was the sort of bit that I was going to lead from. So I'm going to sort of if you don't if the audience doesn't mind I'm going to sort of try to go back and ask Jan Ming to talk just very briefly about some of the key ideas and particularly the sensitivities around how do we manage to get our counterterrorism cooperation going. I mean I know it's the fighter felon felon fighter problem that's very central. But I just want to advance that so I want to leave that as a must come back to you because in many ways that was a terrific way to end and I know time is kind of precious. So I'll cut my chaotic chaotic sort of blurb about Jan Ming's really interesting presentation. And if you like me this is it was nice to have really is very helpful to have somebody can kind of bring it all together and you sense give us the Chinese perspective if I can be so bold and to sort of train that to be able to calibrate that against what is an intensely rich history for which you know for one of the better word communist doctrine or Marxism doctrine often had an interesting kind of struggle with. So I don't you know I mean there was some fantastic presentation which you know yours truly being you know otherwise occupied couldn't come to where a lot of the sort of kind of stuff to some of the sort of you know the kind of wild extremism that we're dealing and the history background was presented. But I just wanted to make that point that you know Jan Ming has actually given us a really really strong context in which to evaluate how things have changed in China and how they're continuing to evolve and change. But I wanted to sort of kind of lead you know being a criminologist and sort of various I guess probably a bit sort of applied in a way I wanted to tackle that really that the ending this sort of pen ultimate a bit about the lead role that the Ministry of Public Security plays in the repression or at least the investigation of violent extremism. I think you made those very important comparisons about how violent extremism what it means has changed particularly over time and anybody who's been engaged with the Chinese online or the Ministry of Public Security or the Public Security Bureau generally would know that actually the Ministry's job even though it's coordinating from the top there's a very very how can I put it I would say vast variability or difference in the capacities and capabilities of the local policing units and that of central and that variations can be very very significant by the way he dropped in a little bit of a surprise for me which I'm delighted that you did. He mentioned at the end there the famous film forgetting the name the wonderful actor Daniel Day Lewis. Daniel Day Lewis thank you. I remember him sort of kind of in a cowboy and Indian form much more vividly but what you did raise there was that's a great example of some of the problems that crop up when you deal with terrorism in a sort of kind of you know I'll call it a profile or stereotypical way that people get caught up in the sort of stereotypes about what constitutes a violent extremist but I wanted to just add this little bit of I'd call it a little bit of what I don't know a little bit of ginger or garlic and spice to that story by saying that the really important follow up element of that episode the Billford floor was that there was an incredibly important and very deep seated change in the way Anglo-Saxon or at least common law policing jurisdictions tackled the problem of false confessions and so the lesson that was learned quickly I have to say in many ways was that you know you don't fit up you don't tear you know you don't extract unreliable confessions from people who you assume to be terrorists there's a proper procedure and there's methods that we've lost at least in the policing fraternity have learned that lesson well and of course it's hard to put into practice but I'm constantly being assured when I visit policing agencies and practices in China that the degree of professionals is constantly improving and like us they've embraced things like audio tapes and video records so that these sorts of events have less likelihood so I just wanted to add that one of the follow ups the really important follow up was this increased concern about how to make sure that when you do investigate these kinds of extreme events unpleasant and ugly with all the political pressure that goes with them that we never forget that the fundamental practices of proving an event you know we don't you know in any way like when I know you of course at the Chinese People's Public Security University spend quite a good deal of time worrying about the quality of interviews and tests and so on so just to make that's this little aside so just to go back to that point about the variability of the capacity of policing agents since they're at the forefront of if you like prevention I guess I want to ask you is the breaking ice question takes a long time to get there and you know what the rules are for discussants obviously not the blabber on too much what the basic sort of you know how that presents as a problem that variability the fact that the ministry is also kind of the lead organization in quite a complex security or what we call high policing environment we've got state security which we know is terribly you know it's a terribly high degree of efficiency and effectiveness we've also got the People's Armed Police which of course have a role to play and at the same time given the massive changes that are going on in China there's all kinds of hotspots everywhere there's lots that we know there's been very very frequent mass disorder so how is the ministry trying to sort of pull all that together from a top down point of view when you're also driving a good old-fashioned strike hard campaign with all its problems so let me just leave a final at last sorry audience for being such a pest that's my sort of kind of lead question thanks for those comments and questions and in fact his question raised some very interesting issues first about the bureaucracy of terrorism in China because generally speaking Chinese police system is centralized however as I mentioned that terrorism threat in China in fact in different regions are different for example in Xinjiang the most incident happened but in other provinces there are no so serious threat so however the Ministry of Public Security is centralized they want to command all these counter-terrorism efforts so Ministry of Public Security set the basic lines and strategies and tactics but at the bottom line the local police sometimes they can use the discretion to find their own way but sometimes they also complain that Ministry of Public Security don't have some kind of guideline regarding how to deal in this kind of situation or that kind of situation so also these kinds of centralized I think police system in fact I see in some way is a high proficiency in dealing with some kind of situation but on the other hand also the local management to deal with specific situation also low down so I think this is the first issue regarding the bureaucracy also another situation is also in the same issue as bureaucracy because public security is also a leading organization leading agency in the counter-terrorism effort but on the other hand the paramilitary and also state security operators and other also military also involved in counter-terrorism issues however all these elements in counter-terrorism efforts must follow the order by the police so this is the counter-law stabilized the basic that means command system in counter-terrorism efforts so that means no matter police or PRA or other elements involved in counter-terrorism efforts locally on site or generally they must follow the orders by police you do a parallel between the IRA and the situation in Xinjiang I'm wondering how useful that comparison actually is in the troubles in Ireland you had two groups going at each other very strongly the terrorism went two ways you have people that the main difference was religion rather than stronger racial cultural things in the end the IRA leaders are now leaders in Northern Ireland they're in the British Parliament is it really a valid comparison other than a few bombs went off? Yes, when talking about the IRA and those terrorist groups in China I think there are some kind of resemblance and similarities for example both organizations are separatism national news for IRAs separate this Northern Ireland from the UK but also for Chinese these we go terrorism groups also the goals want to separate the state apart from China but there are many differences as you pointed out that for example IRA is more violent and also IRA is I think not so religious so it's a traditional this kind of say not levity but this kind of right nationalist based separatism but for Chinese this we go terrorism group as I mentioned ideology changed from traditional to nowadays this means the radical Islam is above views and principle elements of the ideology so there are bigger difference and on the other hand the big difference I think for example most of these we go terrorism groups use some kind of self-made tools weapons but IRA as in the movie as indicated that they're more powerful so there are many differences and also for the future direction of IRA and future direction of this we go terrorism group I think the maps may be different Charles Knight from Charles Sturt it's quite difficult to agree on quite what terrorism is but many of our understandings of terrorism say that there's a direct target that's physically attacked and there's a much bigger target which is the audience who we're trying to influence now in discussion we say if we could break the nexus between the media and the terrorists and the symbiotic relationship that exists there by controlling the media we could diminish the problem now you draw the Northern Ireland comparison the British tried that very unsuccessfully as you may know but I imagine that in China it's possible to control the media to a far greater extent than it is here so the question is to what extent can you mitigate the effects of terrorism by simply not publicizing and indeed is that more increasingly a problem because things like this mean that it's actually impossible to control information so what degree are you able to control the media and how does that help you in your battle? This is a very important question also I think this issue is the media and terrorism so not only now a dilemma faced by the Chinese government also is a dilemma faced by many developed countries like the United States and the UK I remember that there is a great scholar named Paul Wiccanson at St Andrews University also in his book, terrorism in democracy in democratic countries he also noted that this dilemma between media, mass media and terrorism in fact is a very obvious and major problem most democratic countries faced however nowadays also I think many years ago more than 15 or 16 years ago I read Paul Wiccanson's book I think okay because this kind of media and terrorism relationship is a problem faced by democratic countries so nowadays countries like China or Soviet Union because the media are usually tightly controlled by government so this kind of problem may not exist for China and other countries but nowadays the media relationship I think has changed for most time to notice so even in China, even government want to carefully or as somebody says that censored some kind of information but some kind of information in fact are difficult because the public can't get information from the internet and other source so Chinese government on one hand carefully control the information about terrorism that is partly one reason researchers not only in other countries but also even in China very hard to find information about terrorism so for me I want to find some kind of database like those global database in University of Maryland but I find it very difficult because the media, no media even from the document of government source is also very difficult to find this kind of sense on the other hand as you said that without adequate information how the public can mobilize to take part in people's war against terrorism so government must have to balance these kind of two different needs Dr. May, I just wanted to ask you a couple of brief questions the first one is you outlined these transit routes that we've been talking about the sort of northern route through Heilongjiang and through Russia and the southern route there have been some analysis that some of these routes particularly the southern south east Asian routes there have been some effectiveness in shutting them down to a very significant degree in the last couple of years what is your assessment of the kind of flow of people now moving through these routes in southeast Asia and even the kind of what must be a much smaller number through the northern routes how successful do you think China's been in shutting these down and then one issue that wasn't covered that I was a little curious about what distinct policy challenges have been posed by some of the efforts at recruitment of non-Weigur groups in China there have been some, it appears that a very very small number of Huai Muslims had shown up in Syria as well I'd just be curious to get your assessment of what distinct difficulties and new elements this might have introduced to thinking about counterterrorism policy in China thank you for your two questions regarding the first one, I think because in my papers I just mentioned a general model like terrorism and counterterrorism in fact both are mostly effectively adapted to the different environment when the environment changes also, counterterrorism changes the MO and similarly also counterterrorism efforts counterterrorism agency also need adapted to the new environment like using new technology to fight back so about your specific questions for example these travel routes of terrorism groups north or south in fact as long as those groups like water usually fly from the height to the low place these groups also must find some kind of weakness as long as that specific region their weakness can get away from law enforcement agency that would find this place is a route to go abroad so when Xinjiang, I think border control is very tight so they want to go to other parts of China north or south to go abroad in past months I think public security bureau and department and find some kind of these kind of new patterns of travel routes so in north route in Xinjiang, in Heilunjiang and also south route in Yunnan and in Guangxi I think border control is very tight however as I said these kind of wiggle groups must find some kind of place of weakness for example in one province in north China I visited and interviewed and discussed local police police said that we have found some kind of groups of wiggle once these groups visited here and also communicate each other say how about local police monitor us communication so police because use some kind of monitor technology to find that this kind of threat so local police strike and these kind of groups finally withdraw from the routes in one province in China so this kind of thing I think north or south travel routes change depends and also the second issue is apart from wiggle also there may be some kind of other groups for example as you said Hui or others be interested in use some kind of violence but I'm not sure I don't have some kind of specific data or case regarding this also I just add one information that I don't have time to show Islam states in fact last year used one Chinese song song in Mandarin Chinese and released on the internet so I think it is kind of as media in fact I want to target some kind of audience rather than wiggles Professor in both your examples of the wiggle and the IRA you linked the goal of political autonomy with terrorism how does China's CTE policy distinguish between a legitimate political dissent and the desire for self-determination and terrorism Yes and I think the Chinese government the so-called self-determination is very clear and as this morning Dr. Robles said that in fact in 1955 the Chinese government set up some kind of mechanism of Xinjiang wiggle autonomous region this kind of mechanism in fact this kind of policy in fact I want to give local minority some kind of self-determination but I think the Chinese perception of self-determination may be different from those for example Irish, North Irish, these kind of concept I think in the bottom line no matter what kind of self-determination or others there are some kind of basic line for example for whatever reason for whatever kind of cause people cannot in name of self-determination to fight to kill innocent this I think is the basic line so no matter in UK, IRA or in China wiggle or terrorism group as the short and medium I just said that old man is a bystander but those violent group use knives to kill these bystanders so I think terrorism must have some kind of reason the reason can be explained in different way but whatever no matter what the reason is the basic line must be obeyed the human being, the human life cannot be deprived for whatever reason Thank you Marina Terebus from the National Security College and thank you very much for your presentation Professor The previous question touched a little bit on this but I'd like to hear your perspectives on the one hand I suppose we are talking about a group that to a certain extent wants more autonomy is racially distinct bounded by a land area but on the other hand what we are hearing is there's this overlay of extremist violent Islam and the threat of ISIS or al-Qaeda affiliates increasingly becoming influential globally but also in China ISIS as we all agree is a terrible group which uses horrific methods what I would be interested in hearing about and we are struggling with this in the west is how do you address the appeal or the sex appeal in inverted commas of ISIS as a group to disenfranchised young men what would be a Chinese perspective about how you tackle the ideological appeal of a group like ISIS Yes, I think if I understand your point correctly I think you mean how Chinese counter back as extremely narrative and counter back Yes, and as I know that in past years after September 11 in most countries for example the specific case is the United States and some countries used the war or used some kind of force to fight back domestically or internationally but basically Chinese experience Chinese also find that as we online that Chinese terrorist threat in fact lasted long several decades but why nowadays this kind of threat became grave so Chinese I think academic and also practitioner also considered reflectively why this situation in China also became grave like those situations in other countries so that means just resort to use of violence the force may be programmed so Chinese government also launched some kind of program in other countries so in Saudi Arabia and UK also in Russia and also in Australia the regularization strategy is very important to counter the narrative for extremism and ideology so in China also especially in Xinjiang central and local government also launched similar programs but I also want to add that also Chinese continental law stipulated some kind of mechanism of deregulation assessment that means inmate after release from the prison there must be assessed the potential threat after release so Chinese government said that there must kind of some kind of assessment but in fact at practical level I don't think we have some kind of adequate tools carefully or scientifically to assess which guys after release they have some kind of stress assessment so this is the issue I think as an academic we need to study further Thank you very much Professor May for a very interesting presentation I wanted to ask a very specific question which in some ways draws on what a discussant was talking about looking at international cooperation to talk about the relationship with Turkey in sort of CT cooperation terms I know historically it's been difficult I'm wondering what is the current state of the relationship between China and Turkey looking specifically at CT questions international cooperation I think because in my final part I also address this international cooperation strategy for China the international cooperation strategy is very highly prioritized but on the other hand Chinese government also in past years don't want to play some kind of high profile international counter-efforts because there are several reasons however as I mentioned those incidents happened in 2015 those incidents in fact raised the overseas security for China so Chinese government in fact highly prioritized the international cooperation with other countries nowadays for example I know I attend training program jointly sponsored by FBI or United States and China Ministry of Public Security I also academic advisor to China and the French Contemporary Cooperation I'm only academic advisor from Chinese side also later this year I think United States and China will set up a very high level Contemporary Dialogue issues so in terms of your raised specific cooperation with Turkey I think it's very difficult nowadays for Chinese government to set up this kind of dialogue nevertheless I think Chinese government must think carefully must face the music to cooperate with Turkey government in some way in fact when I was in university I also met some colleagues from Turkey's National Police and also from other countries for exchange Back to your point because I think that leads in on Sino-Australian cooperation if we can just have a bit of a chat about that now in terms of what you perceive in terms of Sino-Australian cooperation I think this kind of issues is very important because as earlier speakers raised that for example Chinese Uighurs also arrested and presented in Southeast Asia and also Southeast Asia for Australia in fact is the gate of National Security Front so if for the growing of this kind of Uighur threat in Southeast Asia I think for example while attacking of this kind of Uighur group in Central Asia or West Asia and in other places this kind of threat may spread to the lower place as I said as I mentioned because those groups also want to use some kind of weakness for some specific place so in considering this kind of dimension I think China and Australia cooperation is very important however this kind of cooperation also is very difficult to propose in some way because as you see that South China Sea this kind of problem in fact make China and Australia relationship in fact in some way low down in some way and also very sensitive so I say that even if not only China but also Chinese government want to propose this kind of cooperation but how and in which way the China or Australia government raise these issues to the opposite side and also in which way for example in which field the cooperation the continental cooperation could be conducted internal exchange or some kind of for the cooperation for example set up some kind of regional continental platform for Southeast Asian countries and also China and Australia both play a key role in this platform and also for example using some kind of current resource like Australia and Indonesia Jagada law enforcement training cooperation this kind of center so how Chinese continental police and personnel will be involved in this kind of training program so I think this kind of issues need to consider for the China and Australia continental cooperation nevertheless as I mentioned China has set up some kind of bilateral or multilateral cooperation with for example Shanghai cooperation organization and even other Central Asia countries in fact Central Asia countries in Russia I think have a lot of cooperation with the Chinese government meanwhile Chinese government have some kind of bilateral cooperation with France with UK this kind of I think this kind of relationship between China and UK seems to be getting warmer and more substantial and also so how China and Australia cooperation continental cooperation will be proposed I think should be promising Can I just chuck and just throw in I should say throw in a point about that because we already have at least on paper and in fact it's quite a good arrangement for dealing with fugitives fugitives from China and fugitives from Australia committed ordinary crimes how could that be kind of lifted up to be more effective I mean I know that there are some constraints but since it's already operating how could we make that work more effectively from your point of view? Yeah and in past year Chinese government also strengthened some kind of oversee fugitive operation so most of them surely in the pool so the in the pool and other bilateral channel in fact are used by Chinese government as a major channel to dealing with kind of oversee fugitive issues however when dealing with this kind of fugitive also some kind of very important issue for example financing of these kind of fugitive was also financing of terrorism I think is a challenging job for Chinese government and also partners in other countries