 So hi everyone. This is one of my casual catch-up conversations with friends. I'm with Joanne McCall and We've actually known each other for How many years now Joanne? I think six six or seven six or seven years in a while. It's been a while and It's been probably Three four at least years since we've talked. It has been a while too long too long so we're just wanting to Learn what each other is working on what seems to be working How our perspectives have changed and what we're what we're learning about doing business from the heart and I was just talking with I was just Recapping with Joanne kind of what what's been changing in my business and I was mentioning how Now that I'm giving away all my content for free Joanne actually Knew me from the time in my business where I was selling all of my content You know and you're actually Joanne you're one of the you're one of the few you know kind of people that I'm I'm Talking with now recently that know my history way back then and I was selling you know $2,000 programs and most most of the most of the time people were buying these $2,000 programs Because I really hyped up how great the content was they really were buying the training Sort of ideas the knowledge right and then what came with it was some group coaching Never one-to-one, but just group coaching so now in the past two years since 2014 2013 really I started It made the decision give away all my content for free and only make my money from doing one-to-one Coaching now now that I'm doing it like two two and a half years into it. I'm now brainstorming Creating some group structure, but let me get to that in a bit. So one thing I was just mentioning is that When I now I'm giving content for free I Have I'm needing to really step up to the plate To create even better content than I was before because the irony is when you're selling content People don't really and it's not if it was like on Amazon where people could lots of people could review it Then it's like oh you can check out whether something is good before you buy it But in our world of you know internet marketing There is no such Amazon review for $2,000 internet marketing programs and so you just kind of have to buy it trusting that all the testimonials are what you're gonna experience to and Then you go in and then you see whether the thing was really as good as the testimonials said it would be and In my case and I think in the case of most of my peers We of course used the testimonials from like the top 1% of people who bought and had great things to say about it and Honestly, I think probably the the majority of the people who bought my programs They either didn't use it or they didn't use a Foley or they got stuck somewhere and weren't They didn't really try to come to the Q&A's and figure it out and really or or they just use it Didn't work for them And so they just kind of moved on or they got distracted by another program somewhere Which sometimes I was the one promoting other programs, right? so So in other words, I was able to keep selling the same program over and over and over again without Doing a whole lot of updating of the content and now that I'm giving it all away for free Okay, so when people pay lots of money they naturally Think well gosh, it's it's two thousand dollars. So it must be really good content and that kind of illusion I think That colors the human mind Makes a difference Unfortunately in the marketing of something because if I the higher the price the human mind says well Must be more valuable and then once they get the product The the perception that it's more valuable Actually makes them think it's more valuable even though that same content that I used to sell It's not as good at the content. I'm giving away for now for free. The irony is now that I'm giving up for free Because it's free and there's no price on it people naturally By default think that they must not be very valuable because it's free And so therefore I have to step up to the plate and really deliver value really deliver Effectiveness of the ideas and maybe a little bit higher quality production value or something like that back then I was just recording telephone calls and selling them basically with some slides now I'm like, you know, you know just up a little bit and like Make make some make some higher quality videos or whatever. I never used to make videos for my products. So Anyway, I have to step up that in other words the competition in the free market Ironically is much higher than the competition in the paid markets And I know that and financially it is definitely I'm making a lot less money than I used to be Gratefully, I am still doing okay, and I'm now really building for the long term So it sounds like it sounds like a spiritual practice to me Yeah, I Told yeah, I feel like I was kind of reborn two and a half years ago It's reborn spiritually and reborn in my business. I just you know kind of started with the beginner's mind and says, you know what? Let me just try let me just try to get as I've created content I really have grown faster in a lot of ways than I did when I was just Rehashing the same things and kept selling it which I see a lot of internet marketers still doing You know, they just and they they almost boast about it on some calls. I hear tell us how much I hear webinars here They kind of boast. Oh, I just created a program and I just keep selling it You know for months and years and people just keep buying it and I get lots of money and and I was no longer Okay with that I couldn't stomach that. I mean I just couldn't like if I could stomach it I would keep doing because I Couldn't stomach it. So that's why I said I had to really create quality and I have to let the quality speak for itself rather than make the pricing Give the illusion of quality, you know, I think it really speaks to your integrity and also something I've always appreciated about you is your beginner's mind and you're willing to experiment and try things I mean you come up with an idea and you are out there with it. I mean, it's awesome Better at it Yeah, yeah, it's it definitely takes willingness to To fail but the thing about failure. I notice online Nobody ever really said or said anything bad about my things. You know once in a while In the past really in the past two and a half years since I've changed I've gotten almost no negative criticism. It's been amazing in the past because I was charging so much I did occasionally get grumbles, you know But really when we're trying to do the right thing worst thing that happens Is silence That's really crickets. It's it's we're and you know, honestly, I experience that every week Because I nowadays I make five videos a week Not all five videos take off I'm lucky one of five videos a week gets above average likes but most of time it's A couple of my really loyal Supporters, you know oftentimes liking it just because it's me and they like it and so Anyway, um, I I was where we left off before we started recording this was I was talking about how now two and a half years into just earning money from the one to one And giving it all away for giving all the content away for free I'm now realizing that I'm experiencing something a little bit similar to what was happening in before Before when I was selling these programs. I had a large percentage like I mentioned who weren't using it or weren't getting the kind of results. I was I was hoping Now that I'm getting away for free I'm still actually getting a similar experience in terms of people Are very nice to say wow that was helpful or that was nice But very few people I'm able to actually follow up because it's all free out there, right? So very few people I'm able to follow up with and say was that content Did that really change your life that really changed your business and and of course it's much more fulfilling if I could See the fruits of my labor Um, and so I'm now realizing that people need structure That's my newest learning really for the past month is oh people Not only need good content because good content is abundant online You know But the free content market is far more competitive and far more crowded than the paid content market so People not only just need good content And they need good values behind that content, but they really really really need and will pay for structure So this is why those seven day challenges 21 day challenges 30 day challenges three month programs or whatever work People like to buy them because they feel like okay now that I've I'm in this community where everyone is kind of going to be doing this thing And there's a set deadline for things I'm much more likely to get it done And you were just mentioning that so I'm I'm gonna I'm thinking about creating like a monthly Each month going starting in july. I'm thinking of creating like a 21 day challenge And I'm thinking and you can give me your feedback on this because you've You've really been around the block and all these different kinds of programs and created things yourself I'm thinking creating I asked my My current clients like I have these four tracks Which one are you most interested in I have a a track on You know joyful productivity like time management energy management that kind of thing I could create a 21 day challenge around that I have a track on Optimizing your offering so basically clarifying your niche upgrading your How wealth how well your your service offering is to what the market wants that kind of things to optimize your offering Creating content consistently and enrolling new clients. So those four tracks and what came back was that Different people like different tracks like all four were were like interesting to people So I was thinking like every month I'm going to create this private facebook group You know, I'm going to create a private facebook group. That's just one time and and as people join Join this community Each month I will create Four facebook events in that group And so each event will be one track So those of you who are interested in joyful productivity go and RSVP yes for that event and I will be kind of keeping you accountable in that event page And you can you're expected to come and update yourself, you know once a day or once a week whatever we decide to do So it's like there's four event Pages in this facebook group and people will just kind of be interacting there And if they have a if they don't want to participate in the challenge They just want general support and on their business. They just post in the facebook group Itself and then get that kind of support Well as we were talking about before we started recording you mentioned the three week challenge And I told you about a friend of mine who started who's doing a seven day challenge That is really very very successful. It's a video challenge in his case And what I'm finding is when it comes to structure People are so busy now. It's cliche to say it. I mean everybody's busy seven days A lot of people are willing to commit to seven days feels really doable I could do a video every day for seven days There's a private group with it and then if they want to continue on of course they can But and if they're done they're done But it's just seven days as compared to Recently as someone had a group that they were talking to me about and it's a year long A lot of that is just like You know it gives me a headache I just can't and I and I think I speak for a lot of people that's it's just too long So I think this is one way that things have really changed and the internet and being online is maturing for people Yes, and because there is so much content and so much coming at us Seven days for something we really want. I think most people are willing to do Okay, that's really helpful. That's really helpful. So, uh, I'm So, yeah, I might try different lengths. I might try a 21 day And when I say 21 day, I really should call it. Maybe I don't know 21 day sounds nicer than three week challenge. I guess Well, they say it takes 21 days to form a habit Right. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, so but but I probably I'm obviously not gonna have something for them each other 21 days But it's more going to be like a once a week kind of thing But I might actually end up doing seven day challenge take a week break and then another seven day challenge within a month So that that's another possibility But I want to turn it to to you now. I want to hear what you've been learning and maybe just because We've been recording and you haven't even introduced yourself So, um So Joanne, I mean, how would you like to introduce? How do you like to introduce yourself these days? Well, I'm I'm a publicist as you know, that's what I do and it's uh, you know, the core of my being I help people to get out there and be visible I'm a former media insider. So I know how that works And really the what does that mean? I'm sorry. Just to interrupt you. What does that mean to be a media insider? Well media insider is someone who's worked really in that side of the fence and knows how media operates How they want to be approached and that sort of thing as I became a publicist I had that kind of insight as to how to approach people But the big distinction that I make now is between you media because we're all media now, right? I mean, you're doing video and audio. We're all media So there's you media your content generation and then there's earned media And earned media is someone else involved and it usually means you have some hoops to jump through Right and the beauty of it is often their platforms are huge So you have this additional exposure and those on those bigger platforms who are interested in you can then come and opt into Whatever you're doing learn more about you that kind of thing. So it's another way to build To build like that. Yeah, that's cool. So I work a lot with authors Authors and speakers. Yeah, and what do you What do you Maybe give me an example of how you would walk an author through what you do Well, let me share with you someone i'm working with right now He's actually been a client of mine off and on for the last 15 years or so on several of his books It's really wonderful two years ago get this two years ago He along with his team of like three they did a cross-country bicycle tour From the west coast to the east coast interviewing a hundred entrepreneurs along the way. That's incredible. Wow And they They videotaped everything and then they had a film crew behind them. They did all the behind the scenes Shootings too so that they're going to launch a movie a documentary soon So they did this trip that was two years ago during that time or afterwards He has written the book about it. It's called main street entrepreneur and He got a publisher Entrepreneur Press and now the book just came out in this last week and now we're doing additional Media for him with you know Ink magazine and all these other you know, i'm currently now doing that. So i'm helping to really Launch the book and help people to understand what it's about and talking to media about it and they're covering it and Mike is just i mean mike blouser is his name and he's just an incredible human being he's fun to work with He's like my ideal kind of person, you know to work with yeah So i think he really shows how things have just turned around I mean it used to be you would write the book after you had done everything right you'd already And that is what he did but he went out and he did the interviews first with all the entrepreneurs He gathered the information from that he synthesized nine key elements that all entrepreneurs have in common For being successful. That's really what we're talking about And so all that's done and now the book comes out and now the movie comes out so Nice. Yeah, yeah, so You're reaching out on this behalf uh to these different media outlets um What's what have you noticed is working these days in terms of reaching out to influencers and have them to say yes We will feature this or You know george the number one thing and I think that this is a fundamental truth I think it's always been true. You've got to have something unique And you have to have something that's different because when you think of earned media, they're pitched all day long Five days a week at least probably seven Yes, um and they're pitched all the time. They're hearing things all the time So you really want to look at how are you different? What are you doing that's different that's unique? Another one of my clients. She's a presentation expert About her we have all kinds of success with her because she offers tips that you haven't heard 50 000 times You know, and if you've heard it 50 000 times media has heard it 200 000 times, you know So I can always I could say to an editor or a journalist I could say listen She can give you tips you have not heard before and they're always intrigued by that They're like really like what and then I go to her I say I need some fresh I need something new and she can always deliver. Yeah So for anybody who wants this kind of thing if you're just writing your first book if you're just starting your business You just want to look at how are you unique? How are you different? Yeah, are you helping people in it in an unusual way? Those are the kinds of things you want to be able to answer so that it's Well, it basically it's kind of like what Seth Godin talks about the purple cow Right like this for those of you don't know the story like it's you are driving along the road a country road You see lots of cows Nothing unusual about it and then you're driving along driving suddenly something makes you turn you What is that? It's purple Yeah, that got your attention because it's unique. It's different. So Now for someone who is So here's the thing about here's the thing about unique. Uh, does it also need to be? Um, I mean might say useful Yes. Yeah, that's that useful is good. Yeah. Yes. It's it's solving someone's problem It's helping someone out. It needs to either be educational or very entertaining or both both is ideal Okay, and and so with with mike, right? Um Nine nine tips or nine, uh success factors for entrepreneurs that Itself is not unique Right, but what i'm hearing is that the story of him Bicycling across the country and interviewing all these people that's unique. Yes very much so But also, uh, the word entrepreneur Silicon valley has kind of taken it And given it at this different definition of you know high tech But listen not everyone can start a google or an amazon or ebay, right? People can't but they can start their own little business In their own niche or in their own hometown and the book is called, you know, it's main street entrepreneur So it's really about okay little towns and people who started a business and how they made it really successful The research is showing that technology is taking away a lot of jobs Now is the time that people need to create their own business. You know that you do it I know that I do it and there are a lot of people Struggling trying to figure out how to do that. So this information and these tips I think are really helpful for people to to begin that journey. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely So, um Talk to me about what since we haven't talked in a couple years. Um, what is has there been any Uh, has there been any change or shift that you have made in your strategy or in your way of working with clients or in your way of reaching out? Tell me a bit about that. I don't even know where to begin. George. I mean, that's such a great question. Yeah Yes, yes. Yes It changes all the time, but I have to say that I really love that I mean, I love that. I find it Interesting to learn and to try new things and to check things out Sometimes I notice that some people are kind of afraid of that or they don't really it kind of stops People most people are afraid of it If they can turn that around and get really curious in trying new things It can just make a huge difference So yes in my work. I do. Um, I've become very collaborative with my clients. It used to be a publicist You know, they were hired and they would just do the work and then let you know the results But I really work with the person because then we're both it's both of us making this happen Not just me doing it for you, you know, it's it's a real um, it's a real partnership And that's that's it. That's a difference, but I love that. I just I think that's fun Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. So when it comes to learning new things, I mean when it comes to marketing gosh, it's changing, um, you know by the hour it seems What have you Had to change or make do differently with regards to marketing or or your own clients marketing Yeah, that's uh, well for myself, you know, it's funny you say that george because I think it was like It was probably about five years ago when you and I were working together and I I did a head slap And I said oh my goodness joanne mccall is one of my clients All my business had been referral always had been referral I came to a point where I realized I have to be out there I mean I I have to demonstrate when I'm helping other people to do. Yeah, it wasn't always that way Yeah, right. So now I'm doing a lot more video. I've been putting video out there I'm doing, you know some facebook again. It's it's like an experiment Yes, I have a group that I work with of people who want to learn how to do their own publicity And so I have a group and and share with them different techniques and strategies that I'm trying And what's worked and maybe what isn't working anymore So that's that's really helpful. It's helpful to them and it's helpful to me because what I said last year Or even a few months ago. Yeah, it may be different today. Yeah, totally totally. Yeah, I find that um That's how I've grown the most is by Uh, sharing everything I can um in terms of what I'm learning. Yeah, and then this is why I encourage everyone to If at all possible to create and share content consistently I keep saying that because the more we do it Uh, the more we tap into this what we find is it is an endless bottomless reservoir of wisdom knowledge experience even Insight and if we don't give it away We're not really digging as deep as we could Again, I know not everyone agrees with my thought about giving all content away, but what I mean is just Giving it either for free or as a product to continually be as prolific as we can For each person that's different Right now I'm making five videos a week. Um, but Maybe you know three four years ago. I would have been proud to make one video every two weeks Um, so I I feel like it's that is really That's been like a like a big key for me Is to is to is to create as politically as I can And as much as I can engage with my audience to see which of those pieces were most helpful That's a really excellent point because I think in order for new ideas to come through us We have to clear the way of the ones that are currently up for us. Yes. That's what I hear you saying You know, you've got to put it out there because then more can flow through I absolutely think that that's how it works. Yeah. Yeah, totally totally Yeah, and the great thing of course is as we put it out there Uh, not only are we growing we're helping other people and We're getting noticed we're getting noticed by others and people can share it forward. I mean social media. It's amazing, right? Talk about Talk about, you know, each one of us being a media channel. Mm-hmm. Yeah Yeah, another thing I remember learning from you that I think of often is The you would you would say don't try to remember everything in your mind write it down your brain is for brilliance not trying to remember to pick up the Yeah Yes, yes, so true. Yeah, it's it's true. Yeah, and and yes what Right exactly. It's like the library. We have of wisdom in here Let's get it down Ideally and then share it right ideally share it so that it can have its own legs and help other people and multiply Value and multiply kind of wisdom and experience for everyone Um, so what have you noticed? So so in in the past couple years, uh, you have worked with a lot of people Um, now now I'm talking in terms of partners Um in terms of like colleagues and peers um Have you noticed yourself? um Working better with some uh less with others any kind of changes there or any Kind of learnings you've made because I know collaboration. I'm again re-learning the importance of collaboration Uh and and sort of for for me these days. It's like I I I essentially gave up on a lot of my partnerships in the past, you know Because I mean those partnerships that where they promoted me Then it was required that I promote them Um That was how I made a very good living the first three four You know years of my business And because I could no longer stomach the way that we were selling I couldn't I I said no to the continued promotion promotional partnerships that didn't feel true to me And so I'm re-learning how to collaborate You know because I've been I've been out of the collaborations for Really a few years now and so like I'm kind of jumping back So I left I mean you're such a you're so good at you're so good people You know, I'm just great. What what are you learning in terms of collaboration and peers and yeah You know, I get better and better george all the time about knowing who I'm going to have fun working with and who It just isn't going to work. Yeah, and I've there are certain things that I look for and If I know that something isn't going to work for me, then I refer them on to someone else I won't take it on I say I probably say no to more than I say yes to Yeah, but that's because I I want to have fun And I want to learn and I want to grow and help people to do that and If someone Is in a different place then, you know, there are others that will work for them. Yeah So that's that's what I do. Yeah, exactly. I like that. Yeah, I feel like I'm learning again to Particularly pay attention to what it is that my audience needs Then it's this kind of very subtle Observation, okay, what is it my audience needs? And then also, what is it that the partner's audience needs? And is there a match there? I mean if there's a cross promotion, but if not, it's just Stating the case very very frankly. Hey, you know looks like your audience is there's a need here. There's a gap here Um, and it's a gap that I can fill And do you agree or can you know, is there can I help? Can I be a resource? You know, I think I think I'm learning to do this. I tell my clients to do this. I feel like not enough people do that Paying attention to what different audiences need and how they Can be the key or they can really feel the gap. Anyway, that's not being covered there And at the same time noticing what my audience needs and what resources I can therefore bring Do you uh, do you ever kind of I don't know how to say this tune into the other person's energy kind of the way they're Because language gives a lot of way just how people talk about things And do you ever through those kinds of exchanges determine? Maybe this wouldn't be such a good fit just based on someone's energy Yeah, um, I I feel like uh, well, I mean I think with energy We could mean a lot of different levels of that. I think for me. I Sometimes I I say that I'm so I'm so dense in terms of the energetic Um sensitivities, but but really I think I probably sense it naturally And I feel like is there what I'm looking for is is there a feeling of mutual support Right, it's like And and in the past the mutual support was like, well, can we make each other money? And we don't care if one person really likes the other I mean not likes but like has the long-term interest of the other in mind and heart and now I'm much better at Sensing into that. It's like is there a is there a feeling of long-term? Here's the thing. Is there is there a a commitment to the long-term well-being of one another? And Is there a long term? Is there a commitment to the long-term well-being of each other's audiences? I like that absolutely so tell me how are you getting a sense of energy or how how is that Working for you. So when you talk about long-term I I've Usually most of the time really looked at long-term such as Media for example I may not get a story with someone now But a few years from now. I mean I remember you remember, you know the show fresh air with terry gross, of course So one of the producers there it took me 10 years To connect with her. Yeah, I sent her christmas cards. Oh my gosh. Yeah, because I wanted to get to know her I was going to get to know her and I didn't know when And so I like that kind of a long-term approach to things and the same with my clients I've got clients that I've worked with they come back You know when they have a new project. Yeah I I like that. I like to get to know people really well I don't have to work with them all the time We can do campaigns here and then a pause and then a campaign again I I find that very rewarding And fulfilling. Yeah You could you can almost talk shorthand to the person because you get to know each other so well Yeah, so yeah, that's cool. Yeah So is there anything uh on the horizon that's exciting for you? I mean in terms of like the development in the market or kind of what's possible for us coming down the pike anything like that that's These days, I mean first of all, I just wanted and I asked the same question of you too But I have got such amazing people that I'm working with right now So I'm just so grateful, you know to attract people who are up to such interesting things So when I'm talking to someone they're telling me about their book or their project and I get all excited then It's it's just really fun. Yeah, I think that Looking forward, you know, they'll always be new platforms. They'll always be new strategies There's new things coming down the pike. I really think the main thing we need to really embrace Is learning and learning quickly Yeah, I I heard this story from this description from Richard Bandler And I think it's a really good one. I'd love to share it and that is our brains automatically learn quickly if we had if I had like a A pad of paper with stick figures drawn on it And and I went And it showed the stick men standing up and walking across and doing something in the other side of the room You would get that but if I handed you one card One one every week you would have no idea Yeah going on with that. Yes. So the brain sees patterns. It gets it. So I personally I think that that is exactly what all of us have to be doing is Really opening up and embracing the belief that learning is good and we can do it and we can do it really quickly So I love that. Yeah you're instilling faith in our human abilities to It almost like what you're suggesting is to kind of Rather than forcing it To kind of absorb and just to be willing to stay open Continue to allow information to come to us and and be I guess even relaxed enough to allow the patterns to emerge You know, because I think sometimes when we force it and we're like trying to figure something out Um, we're wasting a lot of energy Whereas if we kind of calmly let the information come to us trying to solve a problem or Trying to come to a new insight Which kind of let the information come to us and then calmly Um, it does come it does come when the when the time is right the patterns emerge and we oh my gosh How come I didn't see that before I come I didn't have that insight before Yeah, your frustration shuts everything down So when you start to get frustrated notice it early and go do something else Yes, go for a run. Go for a walk. Yes. Go play with the dog or the cat. How are your kiddies doing? Doing great. They're doing great. They're like right here right here in the right I don't know if I can even show them. Yeah. Well, there's um, I might Right, yeah, there's a cat right there. I know it's kind of and then there is another cat right there. Oh, there we go Okay And then I have a I have a new dog. I don't know. Yeah, I have a dog now. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, buddy and uh, He's he's super cute. I he's kind of taken over our lives Yeah, so uh Yeah, so I and one more thing I'll say about about kind of what even with all the new platforms that are building I think it's really important to remind ourselves that It's easy to lose touch with the importance of relationships um And and this is why I'm kind of doing these kindred spirit conversations again because There's this illusion that we can just learn some new platform and put our things out there and it's going to go viral and um the truth I've learned over at least seven years and I've failed at it multiple times is If we are willing to help the one Truly truly help the one Whoever that is today, um that we're engaging with it could be in a conversation like this or it could be um someone commenting asking a question on our you know over email or Or it could be with a client or it could be someone we see in a group. They have a question Like if we could really help the one um It it doesn't matter what platform we're using be using facebook snapchat. Whatever it's like Whatever platform we're using over email, you know Help the person that we're with love the person we're with and We we stand out but but really I think it's the it's the it's the thing to do that makes our lives fulfilling and makes our business this business is worthwhile, you know and I'm learning that again relearning it You know the biggest failure is if you have total business success and you're unfulfilled You know So I mean being successful in your work and at the same time living the art that is life Yeah, is is the key. Yeah That's beautiful. It's the key. Yeah Well, this is a good place to end our recording So I'm just going to stop the recording. Hope everyone enjoyed it. Yeah, I'll join I'll include the links to your website websites down Thank you