 Welcome to Figments, our imagination episode, whatever. We've had a lot of episodes. I think this is about my 40th figments. And as always, I'm pretty excited about my guests. But today I'm gonna talk with Clint Churchill about the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum, one of my favorite places, one of the best places on Oahu, and it's full of best places. So before I do that, of course, I have to start with my opening rant. And the first one is a reel from the news headline, Come On Man, the Biden administration is establishing a disinformation board, a disinformation board. And I'm a pretty middle of the political spectrum guy, but come on, man. If nothing else, whoever thought of that name. So you form your own opinion, watch a few of the interviews with the DHS secretary and other people. And if you don't say, come on, man, or come on person to be less gender specific, then I don't know what you're thinking, but I am a free speech absolutist, as Elon Musk said when he bought Twitter. Second thing I'll talk about is Ukraine Russia. Man, it doesn't get better. Now we have a bunch of nuclear threats from the former Soviet Union for Putin and his mouthpieces, if you will. We have to take those seriously. I would not rule anything out of the realm of possibility from Vladimir Putin and those who'd helped in government. I don't think there are many of those. I did, as you know, have Jim Hake, the CEO of Spirit of America on my show a few weeks ago. And he talked about the non-lethal aid that we are seeing that they are sending from Spirit of America like ballistic helmets. This is a Spirit of America donated helmet that saved a life in Ukraine and verified by a U.S. military partner of Spirit of America, the only but truly unique non-profit that works directly with the military and the State Department. So I don't ask you to donate to think that Hawaii too, but Spirit of America is doing some awesome work and I'd ask you to help them. So now to the real show, to Clint Churchill, one of the founders of the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum. Aloha Clint, how are you man? Good, great, good to see you. Good to see you. You are one of four founders. We're gonna talk about the museum before long and that's pretty cool because it's a great place. I had my retirement dinner as you know there, but let's talk about you and let the audience get to know you before they get to know the museum if they don't already. You're from Arizona. I know you went to college in Tucson. Arizona was home, what part? Arizona was home, born and raised in Phoenix, 1943. My dad was a cotton broker and Phoenix is a small little town, about 100,000, but growing way up. So public school, high school, and University of Arizona and Tucson. What part of Phoenix since I spent four years here at Luke Air Force Base? Well kind of right in the middle, halfway between McVowell and Thomas Road, if you know. Sure, absolutely. Right by Encounter Park, my dad moved, my folks moved to Phoenix, 1934, the steady limits was in County Boulevard. How about that, Thomas Road? We used to, that brings back memories because I was driving past Thomas Road with my daughter, Yating, who's also a former guest and her brother Thomas wasn't in the car, but as I said, this is Thomas Road. She was probably five. She said, where's Yating Road? Because if there was a road name for a brother, I mean, why wouldn't there be a road name for, there was quite a bit of cotton production back then, right? And agricultural land around what is now homes and businesses in Phoenix. Well, what empowered the value there was the Salt River project, the building of three dams and three lakes, the Indian, Roosevelt, Saguaro, and then the canals. So those canals brought water down that basically empowered all of that land and cotton was one of the primary early crops, obviously along with oranges, grapefruit and so forth. If any of our viewers have watched NFL games like the Super Bowl in the stadium there, that was a cornfield. It was about a mile from my home when I was up there from 1988 to 1992. The area has changed a lot. I really enjoy it. It's kind of warm, but as I like to say, you don't have to shovel heat. So you went to the University of Arizona and you studied business, but at the same time, you matriculated to aviation and eventually went to pilot training, the Air Force. How did that happen? How did you connect with Flimer? How did flying connect with you? Well, I had an interest in flying during college. I had my private license and a fellow classmate in graduate school. I was at my fifth year working towards my MBA. He basically said, I was married at the time. I'd been married less than a year. What are you gonna do about the draft? And he started talking about the garden and he was a pilot in a Tucson garden. Took me out, I sat down on a briefing and got to learn about it. And then applied, our units typically get one pilot training slot for a year. So I applied and got selected and off to pilot training about 14 months after that. And you flew, I'm gonna show a picture here of you in the cockpit of the F-15, an airplane we share history with. I flew the F-4 as did you, but you also flew the F-102. That's pretty cool history. A thousand hours in the F-102, a thousand hours in the F-4 and almost a thousand hours in the F-15. And you and I have shared the story. We don't have to do it with our viewers, but those little milestones matter. And that had to kind of work you to not quite get a thousand in the beautiful F-15. Well, I was very fortunate to fly three generations out of five. We have fifth gen now, the 102 was a single seat, basically an interceptor, the F-4 two-seater. So we had the communication challenge with the back seat of it ran the radar. Going back to the single-seater in the F-15 was heaven. And plus all the technology that made it such a lethal weapon that it is even to this day. Yeah, the F-15 is an amazing airplane even to this day, as you said. And I liked flying single seat I flew the F-4 with great back seaters as well, but my social skills made me ideally suited to single seat aircraft. So you're a lot more amicable than I am, but it's still different to try and communicate cockpit to cockpit. Any single story from your fighter flying that you'd like to share? Did you ever get the daylight scared out of you? Oh, we all have a few stories. We'd rather not share if our spouses happened to tune in now or later. I guess the one that I recall I'm sure you did several red flags, cope thunder. I was fortunate and honored to be involved with three red flags and a cope thunder. And maybe- These are major training exercises. Yeah, air forces, flag exercises where you have a red force, a blue force and typically 50 plus airplanes and a blue force and a big strike package. Yeah, what occurred to me when you asked that question is the time I was honored to be the mission commander of a mission at red flag at Nellis. So all of that entails with the freestyle correctly refueling- Training, briefing, everything. Exactly, yeah. Getting all of those pieces together as if it's a real battle. And of course, what the red flag does is enables completely recasting and retelling of what happened. The fog of war, you have a plan that never works out as planned because you've got someone else in that case, the red force bringing their defense on you so your plan goes awry. And so how do you react? How do you adapt? How do you achieve the mission? Which in that case, of course, is primarily escorting the fighters to the target. Well, and that there's no safe space on the podium during the debrief. If you screwed up as a mission commander they're not going to package it with ribbons and bows. It's gonna be you screwed up. The brought back memories of my own red flag experience which was in the F-4 back in 1973. But you haven't quit flying. I mean, I know that because I've flown with you and my steps on LAO has flown with you and your extra 300L which is one of the most beautiful airplanes I've ever seen. This is a LAO's flight card with all of your bad acts you did with them. Then speaking of airplanes, there's a helo flying over the phase minus one studios here in Waila Lake. And man, you're a little bit older than I am. You really ring that bad boy out. Why do you do that? You know, you can just prove. Well, of course, flying is in my blood and I retired from the guard about 26 years ago. I want to keep pulling G's and kind of researched it. The extra 300 had just gotten its FA certification. So that enabled commercial flights. So I could sell rides and give folks first-time aerobatic ride. So I opened up a little business called AcroFlight Inc. And over the 20, 22 plus years that I was active doing that part of it, I probably took up more than 800 folks. Give them a first-time flight experience. Wow. And the extra with a powerful engine, a 300 horsepower engine, you can do things that you can't do in a jet. It's got- Yes, you can. The aeroscopic effect of the engine. And it's a whole different world from fighter flying because a lot of negative G. So it's a different kind of flying. This smile is left over from our flight about a year ago, I think. And they said it was a moment in Alejo's life. He'll never forget. And doing it in Hawaii with the beautiful backdrop. Incredible. But you had a bit of a business from it. The other half of your resume that isn't flying is as a very successful businessman. I'm not going to go into that much because I'm more interested in flying in. I'm not a successful businessman. I started my own company. And I like to call it an unintentional non-profit because making money is not my best sport. But you were a very successful businessman, community leader, Campbell States, et cetera. And that enabled you to contribute not money but expertise to the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum. And we're going to talk about that right after I give a quick shout out to Next Week Show. And I'm going to talk about my little concept, phase minus one and talking about imagining planning for best and worst case. There's never a time where we have to do both, it's now. Now phase minus one is the concept. I'll talk about it and give you some examples. And whether you're leading a business or a military organization, actually I think it might be useful. Let's get back to Clint in the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum. Clint, as I said, that's how we got to know each other well. Both serving on the board, you as the boss of the board. But I love that place. It is where I had my retirement dinner now, many years ago, 2008 from the Air Force. And it's a phenomenal aviation and history venue. But you're one of the founders. Congratulations, first of all, having had a little bit to do with getting aircraft for display, one of the Air Force base in particular. I know just getting the airplanes is really difficult. But I never thought a museum here in Hawaii would succeed. So tell me about the lunch. We've talked about this. Tell the viewers about the lunch for the other three founders. And they were John Sterling, Don Parent, and Admiral Ron Hayes, the late Admiral Ron Hayes, got you into the mix there, not based on your exceptional flying background, but on your business acumen, right? Well, that in the nonprofit background, I had been all the chair to half a dozen or so nonprofits for the Boy Scouts to Copy Lining Hospital and others. So one day, working in my office out at Coppelay, I get a call from Admiral Ron Hayes, and he said, I think we'd like to talk with you about an idea of an aviation museum in Fort Island. And it had gotten to him through Don Parent, who was the executive director of the Pacific Aerospace Museum at the airport, and it turned and had gotten to Don from John Sterling. John was connected with a previous effort that didn't go anywhere. Some fellows that came over in 1995, as I recall, for the hope that it had been the 50th commemoration of the end of World War II, and they had that original idea that needed a local board, a local effort, and the like to be able to raise the funds to do it. So we got together for lunch at Coppelina and talked about it, and we said, number one, you realize how much work this is gonna be, and number two, we went around the table, I'm all in, I'm all in, pretty sure it can's, and so thereafter formed a new corporation. Got our 501C3, and that's kind of how it began. This is all in the 2000, 1999, 2000 timeframe. So what was the motivation? I mean, what drove you all to say, I'm all in because as you said, it's a lot of work in a location that wouldn't necessarily be very easy. So what was it that drove you? The aviation was the missing piece at Pearl Harbor. Obviously, you have the Arizona, the Missouri had only been there maybe four or five years at that point. You had the bullfin submarine. Nowhere on Oahu was there anything about aviation, that aviation played such an important role in World War II and Korea and in Vietnam. We felt that if there was a need to tell those stories, I think that motivated all of us, especially Admiral Hayes, who was a combat veteran in Vietnam and with my air guard background as well. Yeah, Admiral Hayes got ready for this show. But first of all, one of the nicest gentlemen you'd ever meet, a wonderful human being, and he only had three silver stars and seven distinguished line crosses. And you would never know, cause he'd never tell you. We miss him, lost him about a year ago. We lost Admiral Ron in a zap slide for another fat, just fantastic guy in just in recent days. And what a great guy takes that kind of vision. And as you said, there had already been a bit of a museum at the airport, but it wasn't the same, right? That's correct, just a small museum and the standard concourse there, the airport division was gonna move them to a less desirable location. So the idea of kind of joining with the vision for Fort Island made sense to those that were involved with the Pacific Aerospace Museum. By the way, our first name was the Military Aviation Museum of the Pacific. And that evolved to the Pacific Aerospace Museum and that evolved to the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum. And you can see the location, the name matters, was Pacific Aviation Museum, but this is at America's Battle at the first point attacked in around Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. We're looking right at where the museum is today. You'll recognize the tower under construction and this picture was taken on December 8th, 1941. That's why I titled this episode, History You Can Feel. Every time I go to the museum and I do that a lot, as you know, for board meetings and other things, man, you can feel the history because you're right there. There are still bullet holes in the hangar 79. This is where the world changed as America was drug into World War II did. So at that lunch was Fort Island and the two hangars we now have in the opposite building were they already presumed to be where this museum would be located or was that a figment? That evolved over the next two years. There was special legislation passed in Congress referred to Fort Island legislation to redevelop the island, make use of hangars that were accessed through the Navy's needs land, not just at Pearl Harbor, but also to remote locations, for a court point out near White Kelly. So the Navy was working through a request for a proposal, an RFP, and so we worked hard to try to get in that the preferred bidder should have included a visitor attraction utilizing the three hangars and a control tower on Fort Island. So we were fortunate to be included in two of the finalists that were selected and then the hunt floor final Fort Island ventures was selected to be the master redeveloper of Fort Island. And there you are on Fort Island. Easy problem solved as we like to say in our house old every time we figure out something that's problem solved, but problem not so solved because now you're a tenant of the United States Navy and we have blessed our Navy. It's still part of the government and with government comes a whole new world of regulations and oversight. Was that easy or difficult at first and how have you built the working relationship that museum has developed over the years? Well, it's been challenging, but I think it's been a good working relationship. Sometimes frustrating because the commander's changed and a Navy region commander, a one-star admiral, sometimes very supportive, sometimes not quite as actively supporting. So we had that aspect, but I'd say overall it's been great. We're actually a sub-LSE and it's really hunting building corporations all now that we work with. But yes, we have to continue working with the Navy for approvals and that part of it overall is going fine. Yeah, and right now over the years, it takes time to build this, but thanks to Alyssa Lyons, the current executive director in the whole team and to the Navy and the leaders that we've been blessed to work with here, it's as good as a relationship can get. Still have rules, we follow them, they help us follow them, but we work towards yes, if you will, in doing good things for both the Navy and the community. So you have this incredible backdrop right there. And if you don't get chicken skin driving up to the tower and seeing right now C-47 up there and seek professional help because it's a special place, but you also need a backdrop to tell the stories and the museum isn't so much about the airplanes as the history as much as you and I love to rub our hands along the nose of airplanes that we both flew, but you got to have the backdrop. And here are a couple of the airplanes that are on display right now. You started, I think, with five, I think you told me, right, Clinton initial five. On the left at P-40 and on the right in F-15, like each of us, like we're both blessed to fly, there's a tower in the background. Now we're up to 43 aircraft. Incredible. I worked as the squadron commander of the world famous highly respected triple nickel. That's through in this pitch, America's greatest fighter squadron to get a triple nickel Vietnam air airplane all the way from Tucson to Phoenix, just to connect it with your story. And it took a year and a half and it was not easy. All we had to do was move the airplane. How you all have built this collection, I know because I'm on the board and served on the acquisition committee for a while, but it's still amazes me. And you told me every airplane has a story, right? That's true. Probably the biggest increment. I'd give a shout out to my friends at the air guard and General Pete Pauling. They had about five planes that were, they called gate guards around the wing headquarters over at the guard. Two F-86s, F-102 and F-4, and then later we got the F-15. So those five came from the air guard. We've had over the years, a number of planes decommission, particularly helicopters that can fly right in to Fort Island. So 43 of the aircraft are helicopters. But of the rest, incredible number of stories we started out with just one plane, that B-25, it was in fact on loan to, or in effect owned by the Pacific Aerospace Museum. So yes, that one dark plane is because There it is. Going to 43. And those, the five guard planes are great. We love them because they're, we connect with them, but this is the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum and it tells the story of December 7th, 1941. It illuminates it. It's an incredible building story. Can't do that without relevant airplanes. And the B-25 is special because just about five months after the attack, 80 years ago this April, Jimmy Doolittle and 79 other brave men took off from the deck of the Hornet and conducted a raid that really changed the course of the war. We can argue that historians, if you want to argue that, brought me a line at info at phase-1.com, but it was hugely important. So it had to be easy. You just brought that airplane over from Hickam, right? Well, that was not so much. That was quite a process to clean it over the fences and the hedges and to get it on a barge at Bishop Point there at Hickam and then on to Fort Island. But when we got to Fort Island, took the panels off, found it was so corroded that it didn't make sense to continue trying to restore it. But fortunately for us in Chino, California, a place called Arrow Traders run by Carl Scholl, owned by Carl, we contacted him and he said, he's just finished up restoring a B-25. Be perfect for you guys. We'll have it done in time for your opening. And once you trade in the one that's so corroded and by the one he's finishing, that's what happens. So we had a swap for the B-25 and still in our first phase in Hangar 37 today. And the rest of the airplanes in Hangar 37 then illustrate the opening days of the war include a gate, some remnants of a gate not fully there, a zero and other airplanes that are, that held the story, not just the hard work. And we're looking, getting a valve in which would be one of the very few valve bombers from the attack. So the museum is doing extraordinarily well thanks to Lissa Lyons leadership and the hard work of 13 that the institutions come through the pandemic pretty well. And it's really, but I feel like right now, Clint, it's about to explode as one of the finest aviation museums really in the world and become a centerpiece of a visit to Oahu and not something that you go back, go to as an aside when you're visiting the other great memorials, the Arizona, the Missouri, the Bofen, et cetera. What do you think? I'm really excited about the future. Well, absolutely. We're excited about two things really and in December we dedicated the Aviation Learning Center out that's geared for student kid field trips, middle school ideally, a classroom, a room of program text stations. Next room is 10 flight simulators. You're actually flying and taking off of Fort Island. You got a SESTA 150 with chicken throttle and yolk. And then the final room is an actual SESTA 150 and we learned how to do a pre-flight. So we're excited about that and in about four weeks we're gonna finally get the elevator open to the top of the Fort Island Tower. That'll be quite a, it's been three years in the making and a fair bit of money to get that elevator restored. So the view from the tower, freedom's view, we call it, but we'll be cherished much thought after the item. There will be long lines to get up with that, I'm sure of it, because it is freedom's view. The Education Center shows the depth of the work that Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum does. There's so much put into the education of those who simply visit the museum, but especially the KK and the children of Hawaii and from Elspur who had the opportunity to come in and learn about history and learn about aviation. And the team is driven to do that, to contribute to the community. And that's why under your leadership and Alyssa's and now General Ray Johns, we've been able to get financial support to do things like you described. Now we're repairing the historic hangar 79 roof and folks just wait, come back in a year and come back again in another year. This can be an amazing museum. Already is only getting better. There are a couple other figments that you've had. We're almost out of time, which happens far too quickly when somebody like you has a great story. But I wanna talk about two of your other dreams, figments. One is the Challenger Center that I didn't know about until you told me about it in the prep for this mission, if you will. Can you give me a quick 30 second? Here's what Challenger Center does. Challenger Center is STEM education. Again, focusing on middle school science classes. So we've converted two classrooms into what in effect is Houston control and a spaceship, either going return to the moon or intercept common Haley. So the classes come in, get split up. The kids all each have a different assignment and pairs, navigation, communication, experimentation. And they go through a mission, they have their checklist. We throw in emergencies. It's just a great learning experience for the kids fortunate to have those field troops. One of the best things that folks don't know about, they don't need to know about the schools and the children do. And that's really an incredible place. And I look forward to going out there and seeing it myself with my limited background in space as a former Air Force Space Command number two guy. And then the Practical Policy Institute. Clint, you and I are both fascinated with things that work because as pilots, we know that things that don't work or don't work well are likely to kill you. This is a life or death, but quickly summary of the Practical Policy Institute and you've been on ThinkTech regarding that too. Right, it's a new nonprofit, 501c3, that we incorporated in January. It's about climate change, educating of and for the people of Hawaii and policy makers. So folks will have a better understanding of the climate system, the practicality of Hawaii's energy policies. How do we get to dependable electricity that's affordable electricity from an intermittent source of renewable sources such as solar and wind. Land use trade-offs, it appears we're heading towards solar, more utility grade solar, gonna take thousands of acres. So we think to understand that and finally adaptation, climate change is real happening. We're gonna need to adapt to the decades ahead. So we need to talk about that. In a practical way that works and I applaud your efforts there. It's not a denial sort of thing. It's gonna work. Yeah, and I admire that. Well, thanks Clint. Great talking to you. I'll see you at the Challenger Center sometime soon. I'll see you in museum meetings, because we always do. And when you get your extra 300L out of REIT, well, let's say refurb, overhaul, I'll come rub the skin at least with you. So thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me, Clint. Appreciate it. Always a pleasure. Folks, that leads me to the final thing. What would big do? Big would go visit this wonderful Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum and feel the history, appreciate the history, understand what truly difficult times are like and take some of the lessons from that era and apply them to your thinking today. It is an amazing place. And we've got some wonderful folks out there to help you feel the history. So coming up two weeks from today, pigments of the Pearl Harbor Imagination, phase minus one thinking, finding for worst case and best case simultaneously. I would like to thank, before I do that, let me show you the QR codes for the two shows. Feel free to snap that, look on your phone and watch for your episodes. And please click like. I don't get paid for this. Nobody gets paid for this, but it does make me feel good. Now I'll thank Think Tech Hawaii and remind you that it is their spring fund drive. It's a wonderful nonprofit that allows citizen journalists like me to put on over 30 shows a week and express views on a variety of topics that inform the debate and discussion and make our state and our country a better place. So I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.