 What's up? What's up? What's up? I'm Brandon Shawn and I'll go over and we are back with another episode of No Labels. Necessary podcast. You can catch us wherever you stream your podcast and of course on YouTube, our home as well here at the intersection of creativity and currency. And as you know, we love to bring on people who represent that conversation, who are figuring it out. How do we use our creative abilities to find our way and support ourselves with currency in this industry, right? So as y'all know, we've brought it up, people and we're here speaking with Benjamin Thomas. He is an eight times Grammy nominated mix engineer, producer and a past as a recording engineer, as we we have spoken about. And first of foremost, man, before we get into it, because I think there's going to be a lot of value from so many different parts of the industry and different roles that people have, including artists. I just appreciate you being on the platform. Thank you guys for having me. I'm looking forward to talking, having a good conversation, and just providing as much value as possible. So let's start here. How do you become a go-to guy in your city? Because it seems like it's local with you. There's a lot of big people from feeling that that's where you're from in your area. And like, how did you become that, right? Where so many people in your area actually want to run with you and work with you? Yeah, I mean, it's all about positioning yourself in the right places. And you got to get a little lucky, right? I'll always talk about the role that like luck has played in this. But I mean, essentially, I was blessed by this guy named Anthony Bell when I was really young. He's a producer. He did like Golden for Jill Scott and Vivian Green. And Jasmine Sullivan, he was very instrumental in that kind of early 2000s R&B wave in Philly, you know, the music Soul Childs and the Jill Scots and the roots like that era. He owned a studio here and through one of my best friends and business partners who I had just also recently met, he introduced me to Ant and he was like, yo, you want to enter my studio? And I was like, sure. And at this point, I was 19. This is 2015. So I was like a freshman in college and then I just worked my way up there. And then through that, built other relationships and connections. So then Ant introduced me to Jasmine. I did that. Then I ended up with Meek and then with Uzi. And now with the younger guys like Armani White and Friday. And you know, it's important if you are trying to really like level up that you kind of have to see if you could take over the place you're at. Because if you can't make it where you're at, you know, everybody wants to run somewhere else. It's like, how do you know you can make it there if you couldn't figure it out here? You know what I mean? I can see that being a lot more true for the studio specialists, as I'll call it. And then an artist, a lot of them do find themselves going to different cities because their city might not appreciate their sound or something like that. But the studio specialists, as I'll summarize it, you do have the talent all around you. Is there is waiting for you in your work? I mean, I know you say you don't do much recording engineering at the moment. However, was that where you started and how you found yourself in the door? That's what people know me for. That's how I built my brand, my resume is just recording. I mean, I've probably recorded like 5,000 songs at this point. Like every possible artist, artists that have 10 plays on SoundCloud to artists that, you know, have double triple platinum songs, you know, I think being a recording engineer is a very valuable role. It's very difficult, but it'll get you into a lot of situations that you might have not been in without it, you know, and just like spending so much time in the studio over the years, like that's how I built those relationships. And that's also how I think I became a better producer and a better mixer and all that stuff was because I spent a ton of time in the studio. I have two questions on the recording side. First, what was the biggest song that you recorded? The biggest song I recorded was Just Want to Rock by Uzi. So I recorded that in somebody's bedroom or somebody's living room back in 2021, I think. And it might be the same answer or not. What was your favorite recording experience in terms of the song? My favorite, it's kind of hard to say at this point because when you do so many songs, especially with like a select amount of people, it just all starts to blend together. Like one day just kind of becomes the next. But I had a friend named Deja. We made a lot of music together in college. And unfortunately, she passed away in 2019 from cancer. She was super, super young. She was 24, sorry, 23. And so the times and the music that I got to make with her, even because it was very brief, will always be the highlight and will always be the favorite for me. I kind of want to stick with me. You said Just Want to Rock was recorded in a bedroom for Uzi? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool. I couldn't imagine it, man. You know, I think about just recording engineer life, you know, a lot of them get, you know, sometimes used to like certain equipment or like set up and things like that. So how do you even prepare yourself to be efficient as you know, you can be and like those types of things. Yeah, I mean, so I worked with him for three and a half years. So I did everything with him, like I traveled with him. I lived with him, you know, we often were working in non-traditional spaces. We weren't always in the studio. We were often in hotel rooms, people's houses, like all that type of stuff. So for me, it's like, I'm going to control the variables that I can control and then, you know, whatever happens with the other ones happens with the other ones. So like, what can I control? I can control the equipment that I can bring, right? So consistently investing and getting the best computer possible because that's like my main asset, right? Like going out and buying my own microphones, my own cables and stands and headphones and stuff. So I know that my gear works. It's well-serviced and just having a travel setup that like could fit in a studio that I could set up or break down in like 20 minutes, you know? So in 20 minutes, I could have two speakers, microphone, computer, headphones, everything all plugged up ready to go. Because I'm just trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. And if you get too caught up in like wood gear and this and that, then you're going to miss out on opportunities. And you know, when you're working on a really high level, there's really no excuses like being like, oh man, I don't know how to set up this in this room. No, I figure it out and make it work, you know? I think it's a testament that a song like that can be really successful when it was done in a living room, you know? Yeah. So just out of curiosity, have you ever been in a situation where you felt like, man, if you just came back to the studio, you know what I'm saying? Like we can make this five up 10 times better or whatever it looks like. Like have you ever been in a situation where you felt like that was kind of holding you back or do you feel that, you know, maybe those situations offer like a challenge or something? Like how do you view those situations when you get that type of call? Yeah. I mean, of course, like in my ideal world, it would be in a controlled environment, right? That's why that's why I work in the studio. That's why I don't work in live sound or anything. I like the controlled environment and the predictability. But ultimately, like we're here to make good music and good music is made wherever it's made, you know? It's like people don't listen to a song on the radio and they'd be like, damn, did they do that in the studio? Did they do? No, no one cares, right? Like they care in spaces like this when we have these types of conversations. But ultimately it's about a good song and a good song is a good song and you have to learn how to remove yourself from the process and not overthink it. Because like I said, I mean, a good song is a good song. So, you know, whatever it comes out, that's just how it goes. I love that and just keying in on what matters at the end, right? Which is the end consumer, how they connect with a song and they don't think about a lot of stuff that we talked about, which makes me want to lean into something that you say. And I feel like I know what you were referring to, but I kind of want to be sure you were saying, I have a setup that I can put together in about 20 minutes, right? It sounds like speech is important and you use the term, you don't want to miss any opportunities. What do you mean when you say that you don't want to miss any opportunities? So I'll answer both parts. So speed, yes, as a recording engineer, you're the number one asset of speed, right? How well and efficiently can you use the computer? That's number one out of all, right? Like being able to make somebody sound cool, being able to, those things are important as well, but speed and efficiency on the computer and in Pro Tools is the number one thing. If you don't have that, then you're just not going to get a lot of opportunities. But in terms of not missing opportunities, I mean, I always wanted to position my career in a way where I was available for the cool opportunities that I knew that could push it forward and not really having any excuses about why. And so if that meant that this person wants to work at this studio and their computer doesn't work, all right, cool. That means I need to make sure that my computer works and I need to make sure that I have the correct cables to be able to hook up to their gear and make sure that if this is a new studio that I've never been to, I show up an hour, hour and a half early to figure out how it works, make sure I can contact with the manager, figure out who my assistant for the day is going to be, communicate with them, like, hey, do you have this? Do you have that? Like I need this and that to work, right? Just so that when the artist or the writer, the producer comes in, I've eliminated as many variables as possible because things are going to come up, right? Like I remember I had a session and a session with Uzi one day and they didn't tell me what was going on and Steve Lacey walked in, right? Very cool guy, but he walked in with a guitar, a bass, his computer once it all hooked up right away, right? If I hadn't gotten there early and hadn't understood how that room worked, we wouldn't have been able to make that happen, right? And in that moment, it's on me to seamlessly transition this situation, right? That's my role in this. And so that just comes from experience and preparation. You can take that into every and every single part of life. And I think I've been able to take that into music, especially in settings where professionalism is not the norm. If you come in and you stand out with a high level of professionalism, then you'll continue to have opportunities. Hey, man, we can attest to that. That's literally how we built our and you're still on the marketing side. Part of our career, we was like, hey, man, all we gotta do is not scan people and be professional and we will stand out. And that's literally what happened. If people underestimate how far writing a well-worded email with no typos is and also how easy it is. I'm not the best speller in the world. I have an extension called Grammarly in Chrome that is automatically correcting my grammar via AI and my spelling. So it's like, it's that something that small can open up the door to a lot of things, right? When I was working with Uzi, it opened up the opportunity for his management to trust me and include me in certain conversations and emails and be able to offload some of that onto me because they knew I could handle it. And the benefit to me is I got to learn the business from a different side. You know, there's not a lot of engineers that can be like, hey, I know exactly how to clear sample what steps need to be taken, the process of that, because I was privy to all of those conversations because I showed that level of dedication and professionalism where they knew that they could trust me to help facilitate the process. It's a new year and I know you want to go to a new level in your music career and luckily for you, that's what we do here. Help artists grow, get more streams, grow their fan base, do shows, get connected with people who can help them and have direct conversations to help you build out your strategy. These are the type of opportunities that we provide for free at nolabelsnecessary.com. But the thing is, it's not always open to new people but at the beginning of every year, we get a little loose. We say, all right, let's go ahead and let a flood of new people in. And once we hit our new registration cap, it gets a lot harder because we got to slow down or letting people in off of the wait list. So apply now at nolabelsnecessary.com because the faster you apply, the faster you get in. Absolutely free. Back to the video. Another thing that I kind of am hearing, especially when you talk about like Steve Lacey walking in and you need to be able to facilitate that, make sure that works. It's on you. It's like a part of the job is not being a vibe killer. All right. Like they have this energy. They're trying to capture what's on their mind and if things mess up, that could slow things up. And it sounds like your job is to make all of that goals as smooth as possible for their creativity to just flush however it needs to. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, part of being an effective engineer, I think is having no vibe, right? Like I'm just there, right? Like ultimately, studio sessions can seem like a party but clubs can seem like a party if you're there to club. But the club doesn't look like a party to the bouncer. The club doesn't look like a party to the bartender, right? The club doesn't even look like a party to the DJ. We're here to, I'm here to go to work, right? Like and my job is to facilitate that. And that also means being vibeless. I don't get the luxury of being like, I don't have it today, man. I can't, I can't record today. No, man, you need to figure it out. Like you need to figure it out. You need to figure out how to best make this situation work. And something I think about a lot is you have two options in the music industry, right? You can either be like so talented that your personality and demeanor doesn't matter, right? And we all know those people where it's like, damn, they're not a cool person, but they're so good that we're all willing to put up with the fact that they're not a cool person. Or you can just be a cool person and the bar of skill is just lower. And that's not me saying I'm not skilled. That's not me saying I didn't work my, my hardest to become the best engineer I could. But I also understand that if you're a cool person, you have a good vibe and a good attitude, you don't have to be this extraordinary talent for people who want to put up with you. Most people would rather somebody that was a seven or eight out of 10 on the talent scale and a great hang and somebody that they like to be around that's nice and respectful, rather than a 10 out of 10 or 11 out of 10, that's a terrible person, right? And so I try to tell a lot of younger people in the industry like just be cool. The doors will open for you if you're just cool, right? Rather than having to be so good that people tolerate you. Yeah, that's a bar. Like you said, man, a lot of times people in the industry would much rather work with the person they like than they know would get a job done effectively even if they hear or know someone that is better than you are the thing, but they know that they're going to be missing all these other elements that kind of come with you in it. Did you use the rap, bro? No, absolutely not. I've never, absolutely not, no. No music or nothing? You weren't an artist at all? No, I mean, I played in a band in high school, that's about it, but yeah. The way you tie some of these words together, man, you might be recording yourself at some point. Dude, I just read a lot. I don't know. If you read a lot, you learn words, you learn how words work, sentence structure and stuff, that's really it. That is a fact, but even that point again makes my point. I love it, I love it. Well, I was learning too, man, like how you, you mentioned the best engineer because I have no Bob, right? And how I kind of took that as like you are, you essentially have to be this, this Blavane slate and let the artist use you to be the canvas for the vision. But you know, we're in music. Everybody has a creative op in music. Everyone has a style that they want to allow time to imprint to the things that they're working on. So I can imagine there's conflict between what you've seen is the best way of the handle being an engineer. And then your own internal creative drive that makes you want to get into the space. So one, how do you balance that? And then two, how do you decipher between the situation where you're like, hey, I do need to give a crib input and be a bit more of that side versus like, no, let me just kind of sit back and just be the blank slate that, you know. Yeah, no, it's a good question. I mean, so when I say no vibe, what I mean when I say no vibe is like, you can't, you can't be like, yo, I gotta, I gotta get high before the session or I gotta like, have a certain energy around me and stuff, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna be creative and not, you know, use my creativity to its fullest, right? Because at the end of the day, right, like, the ultimate goal of every creative in the music industry is to get hired off of their taste, right? You know, I mentioned this when I was speaking to some younger creatives recently where when you start your career, you're getting hired because you're available and you're cheap, right? That's just what it is. People hire you because you're around and you're not gonna charge a bunch of money and that's fair, you don't have any experience. Then the next level to me is you start getting hired off your skill and your relationships, right? So first it's like, you're available and you're cheap, then it's like, wow, we like, I either know you or I know that you have the skills to get the job done, but the third level is you're getting hired off your taste. It's like, hey, I like the way that this song sounded. Who did that song? Oh, Ben did that song. So we're gonna go to Ben because we want our song to sound like that song, right? At the end of the day, you have to develop your taste to get those opportunities because that's what separates the people that are at the top. It's like, okay, this person does this a certain way. This person does that a certain way and stuff like you have to do that within the space. You also have to be okay with being rejected. Something that I appreciated a lot about Uzi when I was recording him was, I don't like to talk about songs in the studio or not talk about songs. I don't like to have theoretical conversations about songs, right? So I don't like to have that like, well, what would happen if, what would it sound like if we did this? Or what do you think it would sound like? No, no. You want to do that? Cool, click, click, click. Done. Well, you want to hear the first verse of the second verse, second verse, third verse? Cool, done, done, right? But you have to be willing to take those risks and get rejected for them, right? So like, I'll try and affect. And the person I'm working with might be like, that sucks. I'd be like, cool, undo. I'll try another one. They'd be like, no, that's not it. Cool. But that third one might be the thing that's really cool that everybody likes, right? But if you got hindered by the rejection of the first two, then you would have never tried that thing. And even going back to artists, right? Like, if you're working with somebody as an artist, you have to be willing to let them experiment, you know? Don't stifle their experimentation because their ultimate goal and your goal are the same. Like, we're just trying to make the best song here, right? And so I think, for me, I've always just been willing to try things. I think because I know I can do them quickly and I can undo them quickly, like, hey. Try it. Didn't like it? Great. Try it again. Try something different. You don't like this effect? Cool. You didn't like that beat drop? Undo. Oh, but you liked that one. But you only got that one because you were willing to listen to the ones that you didn't like. And you kind of understand what I'm saying? Yep. Yeah. Why did you stop being a recording engineer after you balanced out so much success at it? Awesome. I just didn't... Lifestyle is big for me. That's really what it came down to. I love recording people. I like being in the studio. I... There's a certain feeling when you and your client are like in that flow state and in the zone and you're locked in and like you're not speaking and you're just moving at the same pace, right? But ultimately, I didn't like all the other things that went along with recording, right? I mean, especially in the situations that I was in. I was working 10 p.m. to 10 a.m. seven days a week, holidays, weekends, traveling. Lived in hotels for two years. And I just didn't like the lifestyle anymore. That's really what it came down to. It was twofold. One, I just didn't... I didn't like the lifestyle. And two, I just wanted more out of my career. I felt like, especially in the rap recording space, I made it quote-unquote to the top. I mean, I engineered a number one album. I engineered a number one song. I made it to the top of the rock producer charts because of the album, right? The album's platinum. I've multiple number ones and multiple golden... Platinum Placks off recording. I just felt like I had completed that half. And not saying I... Look, there are tons of recording engineers, ones that are my friends that are much better at it than I am. But... And you guys will understand this. We all have plaques behind us on the wall. And you understand that after a while, those things don't fulfill you. As a very privileged place of me to say that because I understand because I have them, because I strive so hard to get them, right? But when you get them, they don't fulfill you. And I just wanted to take my career in a different direction. I wanted to focus on mixing. I wanted to focus on producing. And I wanted to live just a different lifestyle. And that's really what it came down to. As a professional, what did that transition look like from a communication with your current or future clients? Because after you get that name, right, people are still coming to you for that. Yeah, I mean, I've made mistakes with communication. I'll be honest about that. Certain things could have been communicated more effectively and could have probably made some relationships in a better space. But sometimes things happen and you learn, and we can always look back at things that we could have done differently. In terms of going forward, you have to be willing to make the sacrifice to get the things that you want. And sometimes that means this notion of stepping over a quarter to get to a dollar. And I think a lot of people aren't willing to do that. And so, yeah, there have been really cool recording opportunities that I've said no to for less cool mixing opportunities. But I'm building the blocks in this pile, right? Like I stacked up blocks in this pile and now he's stacking up blocks in this pile. And like, yeah, are there certain situations that if they came across my plate, I would of course say yes? I mean, of course, right? If Beyonce called, it was like, yo, I'm be like, let me know where, right? You know what I mean? Like there are certain things, but for other things, like you have to be willing, anytime you're trying to pivot in a career, you have to be willing to walk away from, even if it's money or opportunity, if it's not pointing in the direction that you want, you have to be willing to walk around it because a lot of people wake up at 40 and they're like, where did the time go? I'm not where I want to be. And you can look back at every little decision you made and that'll set you where you're at. It's like, yeah, you should have left after project number four, but you stayed until project number eight. And by the time you stayed until project number eight, people weren't calling you about this and that because, you know, the artist you were working with, project number three was actually the pinnacle and you stayed till project number eight, right? You know what I mean? And so then it's like now you're boxed in, but if you had taken the risk earlier, yeah, it would have been difficult, but you could have pointed your career in the direction that you wanted it to go. And that's ultimately what it is for me. And, you know, I'm not that old, but I'm also not as young as I was when I started, right? And so I wanted to just start pointing it in the direction that I wanted it to point in. Let's add this to the matter. We've talked about it before, like we've been in a similar position whereas I had you build such as a name for yourself from this thing and it no longer becomes stuff for you. We got a lot of courage, right? Damn, I'm trapped in this talent. And not necessarily your case where I was, like I said, we said they just had a conversation with other people, but it's like, you could become trapped in this talent that you really don't want to utilize to the extent and it's like I'm good at it. So people keep coming to me for it, but I really want to go over here and do this thing that maybe I'm not looked at. Yeah, people call it golden handcuffs. Exactly, okay, yeah. That's a great, yeah, exactly. Golden handcuffs, right? And like it's a very scary position to be in because it's like, damn, there's a lot to burn down in this building to go start building this new one over here and there are some people which I'll look to how do I move people from this building to this building over here. So it's just a thought to get their validation in here. There's like other people, those and other aspects of the industry have that because there are a lot of people who might be looking at this and things like that. Bro, you tripping, right? Like you have this, and we say you got this looking, you want to jump over here, but to your point, right? It's like, hey, you have aspirations. If you have things that you want to accomplish that, then don't talk to them with that. Some people will come from building to building and that's okay. You have to just accept that. And it sucks and it hurts sometimes, but some people just aren't gonna, but then the people that truly do believe and you will continue to go down the path with you, but some people won't. And just kind of is what it is. Yeah, I call it not eating the marshmallow because I just remember it always stuck in my head. I'm like big on behavioral economics and I just remember this experiment where with kids they would sit at the marshmallow in front of the kids and say, if you don't eat it, right? Tomorrow there'll be two. It's gonna double. And then to the next day, it'll be four, right? And you have to not eat it to get the game, but if you grab it, right? Okay, yeah, you have the instant gratification, but they even like lean into the experiment saying that that pattern that behavior actually showed out in people's lives, like as they track them further on, you're willing to be disciplined and not grab. And I think we've been through that over and over again as we've constantly shifted, right? Now realizing that this is the end of the path and this is how I analyze the next thing, which makes me think for you. All right, when we go through the path of I see where this goes, I look at people who are like more successful on this and further down the path, but I may and may not like that for my end path. But then, all right, now you have to analyze where you want to go and then why you choose that next opportunity or a direction. So what about mixing and producing stuck out to you as the next path outside of the, you know, it's obviously adjacent in some ways. Yeah, I mean, and just another quick thing, like this is not new to me. Like, you know, I went, I didn't study music in college. I studied business, like I had, I wanted to work on Wall Street. I had all the big corporate internships, like the big job offers, the finance ones, the consulting ones. And I turned one down. I mean, I turned down like a 80, some thousand dollar a year job on graduation to continue to do music, right? So I'm not, I'm used to it at this point. But to answer your question, it's the natural evolution of the recording engineer's career is the mixing or the producing, right? For me, I like hearing a song and seeing where I can take it and seeing how I can make it better. I enjoy that more than the idea of generations out of the songs, right? That's great. Being there for that process, but I like someone taking a song that they think is good and sending it to me and seeing where I can push it and making better. Excuse me. I also feel like mixing is something that you can just, you can really see the results of your improvement, right? Like you can go back and listen to a song you did six months ago and listen to a song you do now and you're like, wow, I got better, right? And it's like, then you listen to a song you did three years ago and you're like, I don't ever want to hear that again because it's terrible. But in the moment, you're like, this is the best thing I ever did. I believe that my best song is always the most recent one. The most recent one where I can control for the variables, right? So like, yeah, sometimes songs are sent to me and the files aren't the best and they're not the best recorded. Like I do the best I can, but something that I was well done and well recorded, like my most recent one is the best one I'm learning every single day. Like I said, I also just like getting to make songs but doing it on my own time, you know? I'm an introvert. I'm an only child. It can be kind of a loner. So it's nice. My studio is around the corner from my house. I walk over here, I work on records all day, walk back home and it's just nice, you know, to do it on my own time on my own pace and stuff. So those are the things that I like and just, you know, getting to work on lots of different, lots of different types of music, you know? So this month I finished a soft, not soft, like an alternative rock project, but I'm also doing like a street hip hop project, you know? And I also did like a singer-songwriter thing and then a friend just sent me a rock song the other day, like just keeping the mind fresh to work on lots of different things is what I like about mixing and producing is producing. I mean, you know, getting to create, whether it's a situation where I'm creating from scratch or where I personally prefer is like adding on and finalizing people's songs or, you know, taking a demo that somebody has, whether it's like, let's say it's them and a guitar and then producing the whole song out around them and stuff like that. Yeah, I think it's just the natural evolution of the recording engineer's career is to go in one of these two directions. I definitely advise anybody who's like an introvert for sure and doesn't want to deal with a lot of the things going on in the industry. I've noticed, man, a lot of my engineer, mix engineer friends, especially producers, it's like, it's both sides of the fence, but like, especially the mix engineers, it's like, man, you really have your own life and you really don't have to partake in the industry at all if you don't want to, like the other stuff. You just don't, people know your trustworthy and they go to your bills, it seems like. Near the world lives in Virginia, right? He lives in Virginia Beach. He's lived there for like 20 something years. And he like, at one point when Billboard put out their top 100 songs of like the 2010s decade, he did 25% of them, 25 out of 100. At one point, he had nine out of the 10 songs on the Billboard chart. So like, and he lives in Virginia and he doesn't do attended sessions, like people, you don't go to his studio, like, that's lit. Like, that's what I'm trying to get there, right? That's my goal. Love that. Yeah. I really should. It's a dream if I wasn't on the path that I already was. And it's also about, you know, I have two interns with you right now and they asked me like, what motivation for me? It's like, it's lifestyle design, right? Lifestyle design is key. What lifestyle do you want to live and what sacrifices are you willing to do to live the lifestyle you want to live, right? So if I want to live a certain lifestyle where I work super hard, but I do it by myself and, you know, yeah, I had to take the sacrifices where it's like, yeah, you know, am I building my career in a different direction? Short, does that mean that I don't work at quote unquote, the level that I used to? Not necessarily, but very happy and happier than I was then and have mental clarity and time and energy to do other things, spend time with family and friends like, you know, pursuing other things. I think for so long for me, my entire life was music. I had no other nothing. Like I mean, I lived with the people I worked with. Like I worked, you know, 12 to 14, 15 hour days, seven days a week, probably 80 or 90 hours a week. There's not much else to do other than sleep, try to go to the gym and like, that was it. And now it's like the flip side where it's like, I still work a lot, 40, 50, 60 hours, probably like 50 or 60 hours a week, but I also like cook food all the time and you know, spend time with my mom and you know, spend time with my aunts and my cousins and like have the homies over for a dinner party. You know, like, why not, you know, alternating other interests and stuff has been big for me and I've really been enjoying it. All right, are you still in there in Philly? Like you're in an entire situation and I'm really right. Yep, yep, I'm in Philly. I mean, I travel a bunch, Atlanta, New York, LA and stuff, but home base is here. For now, we'll see what the future holds, but for now, like my studio's here and most of the work I do is remote. So it's like my studio's here. The cost of living is very nice. And so, you know. That's only because you know, the industry always tries to pull you to the LA, is the New York song. I think Atlanta has kind of hit that list now. And you know, I mean, I could be wrong not being in the Philly market, but it's interesting to see like Philly having a really nice like resurgence in terms of like, you know, a lot of really new up-and-coming acts on Bella County at the top. I mean, Uzi's been, you know, Uzi for a long time at this point. So it just makes me wonder, you know, like, what makes you want to stay in Philly? Is it just wanting to be, you know, is it wanting to be a player in your own market or is it really simply to be to say like, you know, I just, I'm not going to be by myself by fear or not in the rent. It's that one. And it's not even, it's that I had this, right? Like I built this studio. So I met Uzi in Philly. We were in Philly working for like six or seven months at one of the studios here. And then one day he just decided that he wanted to leave. And so then I was on the road with him living. I mean, from 2020 to 2023, I lived in Atlanta, New York, Miami, LA. We went overseas for a bit. I lived in North Jersey. I probably lived in North Jersey, like between New York and North Jersey the most, but yeah, Atlanta, Philly, New York, Miami, LA, right? Constantly, like two months here, three months there, two months, like just hotels, just traveling, right? But I had built this studio when we were in Philly and I thought we were staying here. And so when that opportunity, you know, ended, it just naturally made sense to come back to where my studio was. And then it was supposed to be temporary. I wasn't necessarily planning on staying here. I was like, all right, I'm just going to come home, regroup, get my life together, and then do an Atlanta or LA sort of thing. But you know, it's been four or five months that I've been here and it's like, oh, it's good, you know? Because again, I already have the studio here and it's not necessarily about being a quote-unquote power player in the Philly market. I mean, it's cool, but I'm more interested in working on cool records from whoever and just having to happen to be here. And then I can go somewhere else when I need to go and come back here, go other places, meet people, build relationships, get music, come back, work on the music and the environment that I built that I catered to myself that I know exactly how this room sounds and also just have that financial flexibility really where able to save a good amount of money, able to live a certain lifestyle that in other cities would cost two or three times as much, right? And I think if I was younger, if I was younger, if I was 2021, 22, 23, I'd be like, yo, you need to go to those big cities, I think, because I spent a lot of those years traveling with somebody. It just made a little more sense for me to slow it down just a little bit and vibe out here. But if in opportunity, I would be more than happy to relocate if it made sense, but right now, it's nice here. I like it. And I like the cold weather too sometimes. I don't like the snow. The snow is ridiculous, but cold weather is my friend. So, you know. From our perspective, right, on the marketing side, you deal with a certain amount of clients and then you start to know or artists, right? You start to, well, not just artists, teams, etc. You start to like realize nuances where people can improve or common mistakes, things like that. But what are some common mistakes you feel like artists make or maybe they can improve on when it comes to, you know, just how they take advantage of studio sessions? Artists? So, I think it's important that you have to understand that you have to make sure your incentives are aligned with the people that you're working with. I've seen this a lot. You have to understand what the people that you're working with motivations are and what's driving them. Then you'll get the best, because everybody's motivations aren't the same. Not everybody's motivated by the money. Not everybody's motivated by the awards, right? Like, what are they motivated by? And how can we make sure that all of our incentives are aligned with each other, right? And so, let's say you have somebody who's super motivated by money. All right, cool. Well, if you just pay them a little bit more every year, they'll be loyal to you forever, right? Let's say you have somebody who loves music and loves what they do, but they also have a family. Okay, cool. So, maybe adjusting your work schedule just a little bit so that this person can get home a little bit earlier or so that they're not working every single weekend, because I understand that, like, there's a certain amount of sacrifice that's required to get here. Well, like, maybe instead of them working every weekend, we're doing every other weekend. And maybe if you know that, like, your engineer, your producer has, like, a wife and a daughter, and you remember, you tell your assistant to put your engineer's daughter's birthday in a calendar and send her a gift on her birthday. Like, those little things, if you align people's incentives, that's what builds loyalty and builds trust, and that's what this industry is built off of. So, I think a lot of artists make that mistake where they feel like... Because it takes a certain level of... I don't want to say narcissism, because I don't love that word, but like, self-confidence and self-belief that the world revolves around you in order to be a successful artist, you know? Because you have to convince people of your vision. And I think if you value your team and treat them with respect, they'll go really, really hard for you. I also think it's important to make sure that everybody's financially invested in the work that you're doing. I think that, you know, cutting people in on records and sharing royalties and stuff like that is really critical, especially in this world where artists aren't... Music is not the product anymore. Excuse me. Um, the brand of the artist is the product. The music is just one of the assets in that. And I think a lot of artists don't understand that. You know, if you make a hit song, you know, you are going to make so much more money off that song than I ever will. Right? Because all I have, I only have two ways of making money off that or three ways of making money off that song. I can have publishing, so I have ownership, I can have royalties, or I can use that song to market my services. That's really it. I don't get to go to clubs because I made this song. I don't get to tour off that song. I don't get to do, like, appearances or shows or license that song to something else or, you know, get... I don't get any of that. Any of that opportunity that you can get off that song I don't get that. All I get is if I happen to have an ownership share, if I happen to have a royalty, or I can just use it for marketing for my skills. Right? And I think that if more artists understood that the ability that they have to make money is just so much more, if you cut people in, they'll be loyal and they'll go hard for you. If you treat people with respect and cut them in, that's really... And the smart ones get it, right? That's why the people you see really winning have had the same people. I mean, Drake has had the same people around him for almost 20 years at this point, right? Like... And why? Because he treats them with respect and he makes sure that they are all winning. Like, what was on pound cake? What did Jay-Z say? He was like, Yay made millions, just made millions, they made millions. Being to tell you if he wasn't in his feelings, right? Like... It's important that... And I mean, Jake Holt said it. It's what do you say? Something about sitting in first class, if my homie's not here, it's like... Build your team, but also understand that this is a business and people have to feed their families and people, yeah, they believe in your vision, but gotta cut them in and you have to treat them with respect. Those are the main things for me. Man, that was so beautifully answered. And learn to record yourself, that's huge. You said learn to record yourself? 100%, 100% learn to record. Even if you haven't... Because, you know, I use this analogy when I bring this up often, so I'll use it again here. If I was like, yo guys, we're going to Spain and y'all don't know any Spanish, like none, you're gonna have a rough time in Spain. But if you just know like a little tiny bit of Spanish, you'll have a much better experience. And learning to record yourself allows you to speak the language of the studio. Even if you don't record yourself, even if you have an engineer, your life will just be a lot easier if you can effectively communicate what it is that you want. Because I can read your mind to a certain extent, right? Like I've done this enough that I can... Most people ask for the same things, right? And so I understand enough, like what they're asking for and stuff, but if you don't want to record yourself, if you understand, one, you'll just have more empathy for the people that you work with and you'll understand that it's not easy to do. And two, you'll just be better able to communicate what you want. You'll get better results. So even if it's just basic, it's good to know how to record yourself. Are there any other things that are more on the producer or mixing that you would advise artists in particular to either learn or just better carry themselves? From a mixing standpoint, I mean, the thing that we all struggle is what we call demoitis, where you have this demo and you've been listening to it over and over and over for six months. It usually happens this way. Artist does a demo with their engineer and the producer. They love it. They're listening to it. Send it to the label. The label's like, all right, cool. We're going to send it to Ben. He's going to mix it and then we'll put it out. I'm going to do the best that I can, right? But ultimately, my ears and your ears are different. So it's never going to sound the same. One, you're hiring me because you think something's off and you want it to sound different. And also, my ears aren't your ears and your ears aren't my ears. And my life experience is not your life experience. And the music I listen to is not the music you listen to. So we're going to just look at this from a different... We're looking at the same thing from two different angles. Send it back and either one of two things happens. One, you misinterpret one little thing and that little thing was super important. And so now the whole thing is ruined. So I'll have a situation where you send somebody a mix and they're like, this is the worst mix ever. And I'm thankful I'm at the point where I'm like, okay, I know this isn't the worst mix ever. So let's dig deeper here. Oh man, my adlibs aren't as loud as the demo. Cool, not a problem. Turn the adlibs up. Yo, this is the best mix ever. You see what I'm saying? Like it's all I did was turn the adlibs up, but that was important. Because you have that situation. You have a situation where something was changed in the process before it got to me, but they didn't know that something was changed. And so now they're blaming it on me. So producers send stems and they lost the beat and they had to remake it. And the sounds aren't exactly the same. So when I send it back, then it's, yo, why is my song, why did you change? Hey, I just worked with what I was given, right? But we can mitigate that, right? I don't work on songs that don't have an approved demo from everybody involved, right? And the files have to match that demo exactly, right? So you send me a demo, those files have to match the demo exactly. Same arrangement, same sound, same effect, same everything. We'll start from there. So I think just understanding the process a little bit that it's not going to be the same, there are certain things that just don't translate. You know? So like you have a situation where the demo's really distorted, right? And you send back a version that's not distorted and they're like, it doesn't hit as hard. It's not going to. And that's the point because your version is distorted and it sounds cool because you're, most people are listening to songs in isolation, in volume controlled environments. What I mean by that is you're playing your song in your car and turning your car volume all the way up. Or you're playing your song in the studio and you're turning it all the way up. And yet it's distorted and it sounds cool, but you're not listening to your song in a Spotify playlist with five other or with 50 other songs. And so now that distortion, Spotify and Apple and Tidal have, they call it normalization, where they are automatically, the software's automatically turning songs up and turning songs down so that when you play it on a playlist, they're all around the same volume. But if your song is distorted and it's going over the peak, then it's going to get turned down a bunch. So when you play it on that playlist, it's not going to hit as hard because it's been turned down a lot, right? That's, it's my, and I don't expect artists to know these things. It's my job to know these things. I do expect you to, if you're hiring somebody, you have to understand that it's not going to be the same. And that's just part of the process, right? I know this answer is kind of long, but I mean, I also think that at some point, if you become a successful artist, you have to offload the file management onto somebody who knows what they're doing. It's not really your job. Like when you're, when you're an independent artist, when you're coming up and you're figuring out, yeah, like you do every job, but you have to at some point offload that part onto somebody that knows what they're doing, right? Like file management is not easy, especially if you don't have a background in computers, right? I mean, when I was working with Uzi, we made like literally thousands of songs, thousands. There's thousands of songs, thousands of Pro Tools sessions, thousands of beats, right? Like that required a certain level of organization to be able to open up one of those in a session, but to also make sure that like this thing is backed up in multiple locations. These songs aren't going to leak. Like, okay, if this goes down, I have two extra copies. I got a cloud copy. I got two hard drives that are syncing every hour. I have an archive system, like all that type of stuff. The sooner you can offload that to somebody that understands it, the better. So like, I have certain clients where they record wherever they do whatever I do their mixes, but I'm also like, yo, once a month, once every other week, just come by and give me the drive. It'll take, give me the drive. It'll take 20 minutes. I'll back it up onto my system, I have a system of archives and backups and cloud syncs. Let me put your files on there. Go do what you want. So at least you know that it's safe. And I know it's safe because I know what I'm doing and I'm not expecting you to know what you're doing. Because it's just like, you're not expecting me to know how to rap, you know? Bart. Man, I never thought about the complexity of file management. I do remember just my early days, well, I mean, it was pre-music, but I would just be with a lot of producers sitting in the studio and all these times. And I noticed some people would have trouble pulling up beats, like, hey, check this out. And then some people couldn't find them. And then some people could, right? Just little things like that. But the way you say it, and at that level, it almost sounds like, you know, a cloud storage system, how they're, you know, you have the room with all the servers and stuff like that. It's almost like having a personal concierge for that, right? Like, pull all my stuff together. This is the thing. The music is the only thing of value in the situation. Because how do you really value brand and stuff like that? Like, the label's assets is this hard drive. That's all their intellectual property. That's what they own. So it's important that the thing is managed. You know, it's the equivalent of Apple leaving the doors open at night. Just letting the merchandise go. Like, that's their product. This is your product. You should value it because it's your intellectual property and it's important, you know? Love that. You got anything else, Cord? Um, I mean, if you touch on the menu, you got the plaques. You got a lot of hit songs. You got a lot of hit projects. You know, if anybody looks at your discography. So, I mean, like, what's next for you? Like, what are your next goals? Like, what are the next big things that you're trying to work on in the street? Just waking up every day, still enjoying my life and making good music every day and getting better. And, you know, hopefully making more money this year than I made last year. And if not cool, right? But, like, hopefully the numbers keep going up. But ultimately, just getting better every day and enjoying what I do. I like goals that I can control. I can't control what happens to a song. Like, that's, you guys got, like, I can't control what happens. I didn't know Just Wanna Rock was gonna be a hit. We made us, we made one out of five songs that night. And certain stars aligned that it became a hit. But if you base all your goals off that type of stuff, like, you can't control that. But I can control being a good person and just getting better every single day. That's, that's all I'm striving for. And hopefully by doing that, opportunities continue to come. And, you know, of course, you're positioning yourself to get opportunities and that. But just getting better every day and just being a good person and enjoying life really. You know, we get one of these things, you know? Well, I like names in here, man. I always, always philosophical, man. I just, I just read a lot. I like to read. So I read a lot. You, you learn, you read, after a while, if you read a lot, you learn that people have just been trying to solve the big problems of life forever, right? Like, we have all these, like, these new problems, like AI and, you know, elections and like tech and, you know, disease. Like, but people have been trying to, the big problem, the big questions, like, what is the meaning of life? Like, why am I here? Like, how do you live a good life? Like, what is happiness? Like, what is fulfillment? Like, we've been trying to solve those problems forever. Right. And so it's just like, you know, you have to, after a while, you start to see that it's the same answers over and over, even as the time change, the questions are always the same. And it's the same answers over and over and over. And then we find a way to complicate them everywhere and over again. And then we complicate them again. And then we are complicated. You got, but it's, you know, how do you live a good life? That's, that's really what it is. What does that mean to you? I love it. I love it. Well, hey, everybody, make sure y'all follow Ben. We'll put his info up if you're on YouTube, but if you're on Spotify or the DSPs. Ben F. Thomas Music, exactly like it sounds. Ben F. Thomas Music. Check him out, man. I'm sure y'all have gotten a lot of value from this conversation I personally have. I've been really enjoying talking to you, Ben, for real. Thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it. For sure. This is yet another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. I'm Brandon Shawn. I'm Gordon. We out.