 Aloha, thanks so much for joining us here at Think Tech Hawaii with retired Hawaii judge and author Sandra Sims with nationally and internationally respected mediator and arbitrator and former insurance executive Rebecca Ratliff and Mitchell Hamlin professor of law and chair of the American Bar Association section of dispute resolution. David Larson. Well folks, it's been an eventful week at the Supreme Court. That's not just content but tone and tenor of decisions that have different quite a bit from what we've come to hope for and expect. Today. And today in front of us we're going to take up the dobs abortion decision when that first came out. Judge Simms Sandra. How did that impact you what was your first reaction. I was shocked. Although when I heard about the leak. I was holding on to the idea that it was a draft opinion and you know knowing what you know about. You know how those things occur they can change. And they can change in so many ways. And so I thought oh someone leaked it it's a draft. They can't possibly go that far. I really didn't think it would occur. I honestly did not. Given the nature of the precedents and the fact that they had really talked about that during the confirmation. So much time was spent on that and I thought okay it's it's it's it's safe. There may be some you know nuances and some twists and turns but it's a relatively safe concept. And then when I heard it. I. I really was shocked. And I was sad. And then. I don't want to use. I was kind of disgusted. You know as a from a from a judicial perspective I'm not one to, you know jump in to be so ready to be critical of other judges, and particularly the Supreme Court, when we can have reasons discussions about what they do, and what they decide. Beyond that it was, it felt to me like Plessy versus Ferguson that says you're not even women are not even people. You don't get to decide what to do with your body I mean whatever you feel about the portion. That's not the point point was, it was this a woman's decision of what to do between her and her doctor of what to do with her body in that situation. That was totally disregarded completely and totally disregarded. And it hurt, it hurt. It actually hurt as well to be viewed that way and to think that we just disregarded have the population making a decision like this, it really hurt. And that's a really important insight, because what the press hasn't come out and said but we all know is a lead on the right wing crew that he's got didn't just take away a constitutional right for a woman to make that choice over her own life, her own body, her own consequences. It took away the legal choice entirely and left her with no choice. So how did it accept to go somewhere else. Yeah, except to go somewhere else where it's legal. I appreciate that perspective just send. Because as as a woman. Like you said, regardless of how anyone feels about abortion itself, the point is the right in situations where a woman is raped, or where there is incest, or where there is knowledge of fetus that is deformed fetus with abnormalities. A young person with a fetus that is abnormal or an older person who is, you know, pregnant and pregnant and, and the baby has an abnormality. There's no right to choose at all. And there are so many conversations to be had about what, and I know President Biden is looking at looking at possible remedies although I don't know that there's a lot of optimism around proposing it is it is it was a sad day sadness was what I felt and then, of course, I felt, you know, the need to ask what's next, because if yeah if that can happen, if that law can be reversed. Then, you know what is who is next and what is next, who is next, who's next, who's next. And David as an ally. In fact, when you first saw it. Well, you know, after the draft opinion came out that I wasn't surprised I really did not think they were going to change that that that was what they're going to do so I'd say at that point. I wasn't surprised. Before that opinion came out. I was hopeful. I'm realizing the past and ideology of the most recent appointees and the 63 majority now. I did think that they would uphold the Mississippi law. But I didn't think they would say there's no constitutional right to abortion period. I didn't think they go that far. So I guess I was, I really was surprised by that, and, and disappointed. And, you know, as I look at us Supreme Court decisions and recent years. It just seems they're getting less principled and principles. And one thing I do is I teach arbitration law. And if you look at the recent arbitration cases, they are very result oriented. And it's pretty difficult overturn any arbitration award, which generally is favor of businesses. And it's very difficult for a consumer to win any of those cases, and they seem almost purely result oriented. And it seems like this case is also, you know, they talked about as a justification, this idea that, well, there can't be a right in the Constitution, because it's not rooted in history and tradition, which you think about that. That's, if that's the standard, you know, what are we going to do with artificial intelligence when we start getting sentient sentient machines that actually can feel and express well there's certainly not our history tradition. What are you going to do with, you know, all the things that are evolving in our world. But that idea of talking about well it's not in history tradition. I thought one of the most revealing things is that around page 30. And another says that the problem with Rowan Casey is that the precedents that those cases rely upon did not discuss the moral question of abortion, and that's what make those those earlier cases irrelevant they're not binding. And really what that said to me is that this is about history and tradition. It's a, we think it's a moral question or I think it's a moral question, and we're going to decide it. We're going to decide it for all the women out in America. And, you know, that probably is one of the most, I think the most shocking and disturbing parts of it, the idea that that, you know, it's a moral question and by the way, we're going to decide it. Yes. Well, and we know that Congress has had 50 years to legislatively overrule Roe v Wade and Casey, and have chosen not to do that, for whatever reason. But there are really, really important things missing from Justice Alito's. I think it's fair to say unprincipled decision one is all of the myriad factors that go into the choice of the woman confronted with that unplanned or unwanted dangerous pregnancy. It goes to the impact on her on the family on the community on society, both personal medical and legal. Yes. Even touch on those things. It gives no value to those factors at all. When people talk about pro life, it's like, you know, there is another life here, you know, there's the life of the, of the pregnant woman know what about her life. It's like, it's off the table. It's off the table. And even, even further than that, I mean, oftentimes you'll hear where those that are claiming that they're, you know, pro life and wanting to insist that under any under all circumstances this woman carry this, you know, pregnancy to to fruition. No concern about what happens to that child. Exactly. And we don't, we, there's no, we don't, we don't want to provide for that child. We look at, I mean, someone had made a comment of comparison to, you know, these memes come up the comparison to wanting to protect the gun. More than you want to protect a woman who's facing a difficult decision. The gun right is more important and, you know, coming out of the equality situation, which is its own, is its own horror is just, I think this is really just a very, very disheartening time is a sad time. In our country, it's actually a frightening time. Because I don't, I tend to always look for the brighter side. And I'm looking. Although, there's something to be said, though, about how this has affected and brought to light. This whole issue with abortion, which was probably not going to be on the ballot November. That was probably not going to be a big part of the discussion. It was going to be other things but I think you've really. Awakened a tiger when you're talking about, you know, particularly younger women. Those who kind of took these rights for granted, I think we talked about that before. You know, and in other communities where people have taken their rights for granted because it didn't occur to them that they would ever be challenged. And here we are. It says everything's up. One thing, including table and will be on the ballot. And one thing that's disturbing. It seems like we've moved to a period where more than ever it's about power. You know, it's about, you know, I want power, I want power at any cost. You know, we see it in January six. We see it with Merrick Garland, you know, this that we're going to sit on this for a year, because you can't, you know, take the choice away from the people wait for the election and then then the next time around you do it at eight days. You're quite buried at literally eight days. This is really a period where people are are after power, and then exercising power and really absolute ways. Going back not that far. There were people that felt that, you know, it's more, there are things more important than power. And one is preservation of democracy. And even though I might have political instincts and sentiments that go with a particular person, I think it's more important for the future of the country to act in this particular way as opposed to this way. And today we're getting people acting in that latter way that really is not protecting our democracy. It's about protecting power. Yeah. There's the sad possibility of, you know, babies being dropped off at firehouses and hospitals, because the mother cannot take care of the baby. There's, you know, no thought, you know, there's the pregnancy stage but then as Judge Sims kind of poke that it's, you know, there's also consideration for what will happen to the children for mothers who cannot take care of their children. I want to ask the Republic is, so you're going to raise taxes that you know you're going to raise taxes to make sure there are funds available to take care of these kids. Nobody seems to eager to do that. No one wants to talk about that they don't want to talk about that. That has to be addressed and I think there is enough. There is enough courage in the communities on both sides of the islands to force those questions to be asked and answered. I think that's I really, I that part is maybe the positive in this is that that question can no longer be brushed off, because it's real and then of course you know you're looking at those states, like Illinois, who are surrounded. by states who are banning abortion. And what, and that's Illinois is not the only one but you know there's there's this particularly poignant because they are literally surrounded Minnesota same same situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so are we going to start talking to hearing people talking about well we're going to restrict travel wait a minute now that's, that's something you can't do. But we've got a constitutional provision with regard to that clearly. So, there's, I'm hearing those kind of conversations about if you're going to be traveling to do this and we're going to make that a crime that's clearly a constitution of And then there's also that whole, you know, question of, if there is to be traveling done to that who gets to do that, who gets to travel those that have those that have access to the funds and ability to travel. Then you've already addressed another issue of, you know, the inequality of it as well. So, there's just, you know, particularly those cities and counties around the board, the borders of those states, who are already bracing for you know, waves of folks coming there to, you know, have abortion or counseling or services, and they're finding ways to boost that so maybe there's hope. Well, there are organizations and nonprofits already being formed to, to support the finances that are predicted to arise around. You know, those those efforts that you mentioned, Judge Sims and there are corporations, including Disney Disney's one of them I did a little reading about the insurance industry, and how it's responding to, to this new reality and Yeah, there are businesses who have said that they will reimburse staff and need to travel travel for reproductive treatment. There are companies, large companies, global companies that have updated their travel and lodging benefits to make all types of medical care more accessible. There are insurance carriers that have expressed that they intend to expand their health care, offering to include travel travel costs for staff who need to head out of state to seek reproductive care. And it's pretty broad. Read the reproductive care and medical services is pretty broad. Target Corporation here in the Twin Cities is doing that also. Another thing that's really frightening about this is that criminalization of, of people say well I don't think women should be prosecuted but I fully anticipate that will happen. And this whole idea that anybody that assists this person will be in a criminal conspiracy kind of situation. That's terrifying accessories. Yes. And this idea, you know what happens if states do or Texas might extend that idea of this vigilante idea that your private citizens can can prosecute violations. Now and then what kind of evidence is going to be discoverable. You know, can we go into all your social media and all your medical records, the kind of see what's happening with your, with your, with your maternal health. That's, yeah, I don't know where that stops. Yeah, and that's very frightening. Yeah, and then there's the selective prosecution portion of it as well because it's certainly going to be unevenly applied. Because there's some, some prosecutors and district attorneys that just aren't going to do it because, you know, they have a discretion to take a case or not take a case. So, that's going to occur. And then you'll have those fairies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, our disparities. Another level of that as well so I, I, it's, it's a scary time. So what's the effect on that critical pre abortion step of just getting the education the information, the reproductive choice and care to the people who most need it. How does this decision impact that. I mean, you know, you've got states like Florida that say you can't, you know, we don't want you to talk about save sex relationships. You know, I don't see why they couldn't say not only are as abortion illegal in Florida but you can't even talk about you can even educate you we don't even want people to know it exists. I could see that happening. Yeah, that's having a shilling effect on, on the role of groups like Planned Parenthood I think it's this plan parent is just it's not just about doing abortions. It's actually a met it's a it's a full blown medical center that provides all kinds of services for you know related to reproductive rights related to women's issues. And what we're what this does is basically kind of silent system and prevents him from doing the majority of the work that they do which is actually not abortions. Yeah, there are reasons that it is the counseling it is the, it is the mammograms it is the, you know, is all of those services related to women's health. So in many instances they've been silenced, or certainly attempts to silence and misrepresent what they're really doing and then that basically kind of makes for women who are actually in need of services, short of abortion, unable to get that because that would, that would be the main source of it would be planning or other and other nonprofits will have to just kind of step in and fill that void but I think just, that's the other thing that that misconception about what Planned Parenthood does, in terms of providing for women's health issues, because they're huge I mean they're there, that's there that's their entire mission pretty much, and they don't get to do that. They don't get to think about that void. You know so so again that whole idea about about taxes and about public health. Are you going to, are you going to, you're going to fill that void. You know, are you going to, are you going to accept a new tax burden, because these other organizations that provided that care are are being weakened, maybe even eliminated. Are you going to, are you going to agree to that. And of course my fear is that the answer is no, I'm not going to be taxed more to do that. Supreme Court that at least in this last week has events to trend toward taking away really critical rights and protections for women's reproductive health and choices for protection of students and members of society against violence for protection of the environment, I guess fossil fuel dominance. And voting rights and protections that are critical. So out of one side of his mouth. And just to lead us as well we're just giving it back to the states to determine for the people through their elected representatives. But that's the same court that has been circumscribing the voting protections for those elected representatives to actually reflect the majority of the people and in fact we know that polls out there are showing well over 50% 56% in some cases more than the 60% favor some rights to abortion and a minority 40% or less disfavor it. So this is not a court that's reflecting the protection of the rights of the majority, or of the people. I mean there was a reason why many of those rights were given to the, you know, to the federal government to enforce because states for an enforcing them. Clearly in the voting rights I mean that's why there is a voting rights act in the first place is because some people did not want other folks to vote. So there was a reason for that same thing you know with when you look at so many other areas you know an education it was, it was a reason for their having to be a federal oversight of some of these matters and so to just say oh, let the people decide I mean that's, you know that's kind of what happened in my early 19 then 19 century that's why we had a civil war. To be honest. I think we're going backwards and lots of we are rolling back down the hill man telling you right next to me. I think the science is settled for climate change. You know the vast majority of educated scientists and meteorologists would say that this is, this is happening. When you get a decision saying that the experts and that's who the EPA, that's who they are they are the experts. I have the authority to take measures that are going to reduce greenhouse gases and shift people from fossil fuels to alternative energy sources which will make it better. And you say well they can't do that. That's, that's, again, very disturbing and framing. Very, very one last one to, I just was noting on the, on the prayer in school decision, while they're saying it's okay for this coach to do that. So I raise the question what if that religion that what if it's, it's what if it's not a Christian what if it's someone wanting to do their, you know, Muslim prayers at the end of. I like the wicking in the classroom. Yeah, hello. I mean you know what about that what's going to happen. What's going to happen then is that going to be are you going to be as some I'm almost wanting someone to do that. Just so we can. Let's test this principle. Let's test this principle and see is this what you really, really, really want. Yeah, but before we go we can't not at least celebrate today. For Justice Katanji Brown Jackson I, I, I participated a few weeks ago in a, in a, in a program for Juneteenth where we, you know, celebrated her and I wish her well. She is. I wish her well she's got to work cut out for her. That's right. I wish her well. Yeah, on the news today they made the good point that of course the same percentage that exists 63. The numerically, that you know there's a liberal minority, but they have the benefit they'll have the benefit of her perspective and I thought that that's, yeah, that's a silver lining. Yeah, which is that which is the which is the big piece of the importance of diversity in any way. So you're having all these perspectives and it does affect and color how things get perceived and fortunately some people. Well, well get perceived and get changed, because you do have the power power to write it set. And if you can bring a different perspective that people haven't understood or recognized before. Maybe that can lead to a change, even though in this on this day, it happened to be a dissent is the future of the you know you got it. Yeah, you're right David that's, that's, yeah, that's there. That's there. I wish her well. So I'm happy for her, although it's a crazy time but I wish her the absolute best. So when finishing up for today and thanks for all the wonderful thoughts insights and perspectives. We finish with a hope for reversal of this change of direction away from the expansion of rights and protections. For the people that were too long excluded marginalized underserved and for all of us to come together to assert and protect those rights again. Thanks for joining us. Come back in two weeks. We'll have lots more to talk about. Thank you so much for watching think tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at think tech Hawaii.com. Mahalo.