 Space is supporting or enabling a number of the SDGs that you mentioned. I mean, we have 17. There are proposals for even having space as the 18th SDG. Are there various activities and initiatives out there to bring that to the table? Because we are so heavily depending on that and we have to clarify or we have to set our rules to Yeah, not make a mistake that we will regret sooner or later because, I mean, you mentioned this is a space junk or this is a space debris. We have the situation with the oceans and then it's not that extreme. But I mean, over years, over decades, we polluted the oceans. And now we surprisingly see that even the fish that we are catching from the sea has microplastics and it has an effect in the entire circle or on the ocean. So also we have these massive islands and I don't know what the size is now of garbage, which is just there. And I mean, that is absolute frightening. And we start to do that the same in space. Boston Cleaning is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Publisher of SpaceWatch Global, a Thor group GMBH brand. Horston is the CEO and is a business development executive with an academic and professional experience in space management, satellite communications, and broadcast technology. He has an electrical and telecommunications engineering background and studied information technology and computer science at the Technical College of Berlin. Horston began his career as a software developer before moving into sales management and business development, working at companies including 3Com, Lucent, Digital, Video, SES, Astra, Bertelsmann, and PTS scientists. A proud Berliner with a global outlook, Horston expanded his horizons even further by attending the International Space University and earning an executive MBA. His ISU thesis analyzed capacity building visions and opportunities of countries in the Gulf region, and he brings experience developing strong and lasting business relationships with Middle Eastern countries. At SpaceWatch Global, Horston is putting his business acumen to good use in his operations and business development role, specializing in international partnerships and information analysis. He has been instrumental in successfully identifying new market opportunities and takes pride in building strong customer relationships that benefit all partners combining his business intelligence with an ability to understand complex technical information from the market and clients. Since the beginning of 2020, he hosts a series of space cafes virtually, his weekly space cafe web talk 33 minutes with different guests. He hosts high-level actors in the space community for an in-depth talk. He also produces the bi-weekly space cafe podcast hosted by Marcus Moos Lechner. In 2021, the space cafes branched out to various regions of the world. Horston, thank you for giving me the short bio because I know it could be much longer because you've been doing this for quite some time. You have a plethora of background. Welcome to the show. Mark, thank you very much for having me. It's a great pleasure to be here and although I would say when you have an extensive bio, then you're just being old experience. No, no, no, no, no. We all are experienced. Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely old, but no, you've just got a plethora of experience and it's so nice. Our paths have crossed many times. We know each other from M-Love, Future IO, KinnerNet, H-Farm, many, many other locations. The last time we saw each other live was at DLD and Munich at 2020. So before the pandemic really hit and got underway and we had a nice talk there. You had a nice, I don't know, as a plan area panel discussion there at DLD, which was beautiful and did some fabulous things. So I want to jump right into it. So we have been through hell. We've experienced the COVID, the pandemic, all this craziness, all your years of experience, all what you've done, what you've learned, kind of with this strong focus on space, the future innovations that are really, really meant to bring us into better futures and get us out of crazy situations like this. In some respects, if you drill down to it, how have you weathered this time? Did you have any resilience? Tell me your personal experiences and aha moments during this time. That's a big question. But yeah, I mean, I think what we experience right now to overcoming the pandemic is a good use of space technology in our daily life. I mean that we talk here together or in this setup. I wouldn't say it's something that comes from space, not at all. It's invented here on Earth, but it has strong sales components in it. So the entire timing for most of the services we use comes from space. And how did we do? I mean, we run a digital platform and we see an arising moment in the pandemic because people stay home, but there's still a hunger to know what's going on. And I think also we see that as a hunger for higher quality information, not the usual one that you get from the yellow press. Sure, that's something that most people need also to digest. But yes, and that's what we particularly see are a hunger for high quality information and are also interactive formats. I mean, like what we do right now, people like to consume with all their senses, whatever is possible. I mean, the only thing what we miss at the moment is to hug each other, to have a drink to each other and experience this kind of social life. But all the rest, I think, we can treat it quite well. So yeah, we are surviving in this environment with the pandemic. And I mean, Germany is heading now the third lockdown or so. I mean, it's obviously not avoidable. So yeah, we will see how long that will take. But satellite technology, the use of satellite, the protection of assets in space is something we are big advocates for. I want to drill down even deeper. You personally, did you have to make any pivots as we got into the first lockdown into the pandemic to kind of move forward? And is that how some of Space Cafe and Space Watch emerged? Or were you totally prepared? You were saying, I've done this for years and we could go. I just want to dive even deeper and kind of pull out what's happened with you and want some of the great successes, even though we were in a pandemic. Oh, great point. And no, I didn't have a blueprint for that, to be honest. So I just adapted to the situation and made the best out of it. And I mean, as you mentioned before, we have seen each other in the course of the last years with on so many occasions and so many places of the world, I was a frequent traveler. And the last year was the first year after the war came down. So for those that want to calculate back, it's quite a while ago. So it's the first year that I haven't taken a single flight. And I have to say, hey, I'm still alive. And sure, you have to rethink about all this troubling arrangement before. And yeah, mirror that a bit. But the question was, so how did we manage with that? The Space Cafes was a physical interaction with people we had twice in Berlin before. And we said, hey, why don't we get it online? Because we arranged a nice contract or a nice setting beginning of last year with a big telecom operator here in Germany to use their facility in Berlin to offer the Space Cafes a few times a week. And then pandemic hit us. So we said, do we stop now? Do we wait until it's over? But hey, when will that happen? So nobody had an idea. And we said, no, we just go online like everyone else. But then you can't take physical formats one to one into online formats. Because we all are zoomified over the last year with two hour and beyond panels with dozens of people where even as a panelist, you're bored to death. Because your face time is limited to three minutes. But then you have to sit two hours in front of a camera smiling and you can't do anything else than being there. So and I think we have to adapt with this new situation and find formats that are exciting for people and are engaging at the same time. So I mean, you know what happened when you have 100 people in a Zoom room and try to interact with them and everybody can speak or it doesn't work. So the format we have developed or sort of was a short format, 33 minutes, in-depth talk with somebody on the topic my guest is interested in. And what I always say is I'm inviting my guest to my virtually to my terrace to have a drink, have a conversation on a space topic, what is close to his or her heart and then dive into it. And we let our audience participate in that and then interacting with us with sending in their questions and then we take them into it. But 33 minutes it is not longer. So and that's obviously pretty appealing for people. And when we run now over 50 shows, I mean, yeah, we run it for a year now weekly. So over 50 shows and yeah, well recognized. That's great. That's great to hear. I'm glad to hear it. I want to know a little bit more too, because I do a show on clubhouse every Tuesday evening around food. And I wanted to find out I've seen you there. You're also doing, I think it's a form of either base cafe or base watch. What do you find in about that new platform and how is that going? Is there a lot of space enthusiasts or people on clubhouse that are interested in these topics? Absolutely. I mean, these are the new kids on the block. I mean, it's something what appeared last year and obviously made its way through the world. And I mean, we skipped TikTok. I still don't know how to use it and what it's for. But however, I have a hard time to understand the use of Instagram. But okay. And clubhouse, I said, yeah, that looks pretty interesting because it's audio only. It's not recorded. So and you have an interaction with people. And what we do and you pointed to that are after our 33 minutes, we do an extra 33 minutes. And that's actually also how we call it, space cafe and extra 33 minutes on clubhouse to either engage with our guest or to engage with the audience, what they think about it, if they have other questions. So because it's a more informal talk, then we have it on Zoom because we also record our talks or our dialogues and archive them and make them available for later usage. And on clubhouse, it's fluid. It's gone when it's said. And there are definitely a number of our space people are on clubhouse or there are, I mean, every day ongoing space discussions or on various levels. And it also opened us to a new audience. And that's an interesting side effect. So I mean, we all have the point of, hey, how do we engage with more people, with new people, with other people? Our followership is great. And we have two-third of people that are coming back to our space cafes after they have been there, they're coming back and they are on the list to get the next announcement and all of that. But how to engage with new ones? How to do the next leap? How to really exponential grow? And I think clubhouse is for us at the moment an experiment. I mean, we're doing it just on somebody else's platform. That's also something you have to take into account. And it's not there forever. So it's for the moment. And it is good to communicate with people. But at the moment, I think from the business point of view, we all have the same question marks in our eyes. I want to kind of go in a little bit more on, is it all in English? Is it mixed between German and English or both space watch and space cafe? For, I mean, for space, the universal language is English or without any doubt. So we publish on our website everything in English. I mean, we started at one stage with a Russian section that didn't turn out that well, maybe we've been too early. But on clubhouse, we do it all in English. Also, the space cafes are, the space cafes 33 minutes are in English. We started earlier this year with, as you mentioned earlier, branching out the space cafes into the regions. So Australia, Brazil, Germany, Netherlands is coming up or Russia. And these are in local languages and why are we doing it? We want to do something for the community in these countries. Because if we talk about global space, it is important, no doubt, because space is not something you can divide for a country by country. So we need this global dialogue, but we also need to address the people in the countries that might not be able to speak English. So for instance, the space cafe Russia is in Russian. So Elena Morozova, she's the executive secretary of InterSputnik. She is hosting GAS and her first guest, Olga Wolinskaya, is a space lawyer. And so they spoke about the application of space law in Russia, in Russian. And it was a huge success. I mean, I try to understand what they're talking was hard for me. I couldn't catch up with it. But I mean, we got absolute positive feedback. And we do it the same in Portuguese, in Brazil. Yeah. I mean, Canada is coming up, Scotland, UK is all in English. Even the Netherlands will be in English. Germany we have done in German because we have a huge community in Germany that is also not able to speak English or a proper English. So we hosted our host for Germany, Andreas Schepers, hosted Dr. Walter Pelzer, the head of the DLR. And they spoke about space, new space, launchers, micro launchers, North Sea and so on in German to a German audience. So I want to get into a couple of things now that you've brought that up, the international communities. And I want to focus in on two areas and see, you know, what you've heard or what, because you have your finger on the pulse and what you've heard or observed. First of all, Russia with now, you know, pretty much the U.S. space race with Tesla and Virgin Galactic and others, Jeff Bezos, Blue Origin has pretty much gone over to the privatization. NASA is giving the contract to Musk and that. How has that affected the Sputnik program? Russia, what is their next phase? What is their future? Are they collaborating? Is that something because they were the ones just up until recent taking us up to the space station? So I'd like to know what kind of insights, what's the future for them and how that's affected them from what you've found out so far? Absolutely. And I have to say, after the Sputnik program, many things happen also in Russia. So I mean, Russia went through massive changes in the entire structure. So are the departure of the USSR. Now we have the sovereign countries. There a lot of the space technology is more or less divided by Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan. So I mean also the conflict obviously between Russia and Ukraine causes a number of challenges in the Russian space program. But what we see is that Russia is delivering a service and Russia is doing their stuff. Yes, the Soviet rocket is technology, I think, which is 30 years proven, but is doing the job. So how the future will look like, we will see. I mean the new alliance is, and you might have seen it, there's an MOU under written by China and Russia about space exploration. So that could be an interesting, if you may say frightening, new development. But definitely we will see two blocks, at least two blocks, or even in our space development. And there's no doubt that the US government, military, private, is in the lead position. But others will come and I would say at the moment Russia is doing their job, slow pace, I mean all the budgets are down there as well. They have huge challenges on the economics and that influence the space program as well. But who we see is rising at the moment dramatically as China. I mean we cooperate with folks in China to get news, independent news from China and just today there was a huge announcement about a huge funding round for a new constellation from China on narrowband communication. So these things are happening right now. So we see a lot of also Russian technology is emerging or giving a base for the Chinese development or in space. And even so China is not that far advanced or it is on a way, and on a very fast, fast track right now. Yeah I think good, bad or ugly, China's and our asses in many different ways. They're really showing us some examples in all different sectors. The other community that I wanted to discuss is India. So India did a launch and at right before touchdown or during the touchdown process lost communications. And then afterwards not much was heard of but it was a huge milestone. It was a huge thing for India as well to even get that far and to have that kind of a success to that. And a lot of missions fail. So I mean it's not saying anything that it failed because there's many missions even with musket that fail or they're learning, talk it up to learning experience. What do you know about that community and the failures there or some things that maybe is there any discussions going on with that and the advancements there in India? Absolutely. I mean you are referring to their moon lendouts or as a moon program or I mean we have seen that these are private or an initiative emerging from the Gulu next prize. So that was namely Israel, the bearish lander who are smashed on the they had a hard touchdown on the lunar surface which was a bit unfortunate. And then or shortly after we have seen India's government or Israel mission also not make it or softly on the moon. But there will be in both countries new missions and India also going for a human space flight now with their own program or India opened slowly in the Indian style very slow to commercialize the market. So we see at the moment a high number of Indian startups in the space sector also raising foreign money for them. I mean Pixar is no, Pixel is not Pixar with double X. Pixel is one of them. I mean there's a huge community or a new space India called and it's worth to watch what comes out from there. And I mean we know the Indian education system is quite well advanced. I mean they have two million graduates every year coming out from the universities on IT or with IT studies. So I mean and they are going globally and then also coming back with bringing this knowledge home. And so there's nothing wrong with that. But India is also to watch or they have launch capacities. They showed unfortunately or I mean they showed the or the their anti-satellite capabilities or two years back where they shoot down one of their own satellites. But I mean India is operating also in a very geopolitical very sensitive area. I mean there are permanent conflicts with Pakistan. There is this tension with China in the north of India. And I mean and we have to see all these circumstances to understand why there was this timing for an ASA test. Even it created unnecessary debris and all of that what came with it. And I mean the scientists or I mean we were told the press were told oh that was not a problem. It was such a low orbit that will be the orbit within months. Few years later still we have fragments and objects are still in space. And that's one of the things that is very alarming. And you mentioned earlier the DLD in Munich earlier last year where we had a panel on on space situational awareness, space debris to to raise this awareness here on earth that we are so heavily depending on space assets and the services we are getting from space that we can't risk these assets. And I'm sure the military has a different point on that to take but all the commercial services whether earth observation I mean all of that wouldn't be possible without the assets in space. Plus positioning services. I mean are you still able to read the map if you've seen it? I mean we are old enough we had learned it and we have been potentially Boy Scouts or an army to train it or and could navigate. But I mean who of the young generation is able to read a map? Yeah and why? Because I'm this blue dot here moving so. So there's a couple points that you brought up that I want to even go a little bit deeper into and if they're touchy subjects you just tell me. So first of all you have engineering background to computer science degree. I do as well but what's really interesting is international space university your executive MBA that you have through there with this type of almost moonshot degree or outer space thinking there's a lot of forecasting there's also a lot of planning road mapping and future planning okay how do we build something engineer something what's the science the math to get us to this point which is a time in the future actually it's you know it's a roadmap timeline plan to get us there which all you know whether it's private whether it's India whether it's Sputnik it's Russia it's whoever it is they're all doing these things that are really especially that the great things that have happened with Mars lately they're all you know many months much planning and adjustments along the way that's I mean that's the tools in the business model or the the way to think to get there but now I want to go into the hard question on the ground a lot of these private companies or these programs we talked about India and the moon planning you were involved in PT scientists which stands for part-time scientists a wonderful thing we saw the the lander the rover at H farm and we've talked about it before I guess you could say great partners or great collaborations but there's almost a bastardization or something where it goes wrong along the way with when we when we get into some of these people want to put their logo or their brand on things and the true reason of what you want to do or what you want to accomplish kind of gets in the way and first of all just you know if you don't mind tell us about the beautiful wonderful things about PT scientists and how you got involved and started with that and then also why you decided this is not right it's too there's something wrong here which we're we're not just seeing with PT scientists we're seeing in other areas as well no no problem at all I mean PT scientists is part of my my own history and heritage so or and that's not something I regret definitely not because it was a cool thing and I will talk about it in a second so what what was PT scientists pts part-time scientists as you as you mentioned so there were one of the teams or that were participating in the google luna x prize and the google luna x prize was to recap I think set up 12 14 years ago something like that 2007 2007 so it's 14 years ago yeah by by Peter Diamandis and his team and they got google on board and that was an x prize following the Ansari x prize where we had seen the first commercial companies going to sub orbital or virgin galactic and an x core and and all of those so the next one was then the literal the moonshot so the x prize was fly privately to the moon or have a vehicle with you or uncrewed or have a vehicle with you drive 500 meters sent an hd video back and I think an eight minute hd video back and you will get also 10 million or 20 million dollars for that so I mean if somebody offers you 10 million or 20 million dollars um you I think that's that's an amount for both of us that is oh wow that's a lot if you do a moonshot you know or it might leverage a bit so I mean how does it cost to fly something to the moon are definitely more than 20 million I mean that's without spoiling or that's what I can say so but at least it it was a drive and what what happened is that I think 35 37 teams worldwide came together and were in this race starting with rovers starting with lenders so and what we see today we have a number of left leftovers or emerging companies out of these out of just teams so one of them was PT scientists in Berlin run and founded by Robert Burma and his team and yeah they created also a great partnership with Audi so that the rover was then rebranded in the Audi Luna quadruple to have to bring the four rings to the moon and what you have seen was one of the models are we build are we build a spacecraft or a cold build we designed a spacecraft called Alina autonomous landing and navigation or module to fly to the moon to land and to also have payload and payload means really other people other companies other organizations are experiment and stuff to the moon so we also worked with companies like Vodafone Red Bull and Omega and so on and that was a great experience and they approached me because I've done a lot of our business and and and work in the Middle East with their space programs and their initiatives and so at one of their trips to the Middle East they approached me if I could help them and so I jumped on a plane or went with them to Doha at that point of time and yeah the rest of the story they asked me to to or come on board and work with them and then I ended up to being their chief commercial officer and afterwards chief business officer which was a great time but I also learned then that moonshots are not we can't take moonshots for granted I mean you need an idea you need a bold vision I mean Elon Musk I think is he is the anchor that we all have seen or the role model we all have seen here I mean the Falcon one failed and then he after three failures he came up with a contract with the US Air Force created the Falcon 9 and he succeeded I mean also with with a number of there is his innovations like reusing first stages which was impossible to imagine for the established agencies and the established players I mean I'm old enough in this or long enough in this market to have been in this in this panels that that people say no that doesn't work never ever we can do that and so and that doesn't make sense I mean Elon has proven us all wrong you know for these ideas I mean yeah he failed for the first three whatever landings even I mean I think earlier this year he failed the landing of a booster but so what I mean he he he landed or I think 50 of them in the bull's eye already and yes what we see right now are these these enormous speed with the starship development yes their hopping tests are not successful and I mean the last one landed and then exploded shortly after what is also not cool but I mean it's just a matter of time and I think as an 10 11 whatever is on the rollout already so he building it in an incredible faster cycle and what we what we learn from that is that these things are possible that you need something and that's money resources you need the talents you need to write partners and for pity scientists it didn't work out so and then or there was an insolvency are coming and I said I have to move on I mean it's I I can't state it or any any longer and so it's definitely a hard area to be in but I think that was was there anything with like you know these these logo placements or anything with like you know you you thought you had people on board that were supportive but it's really wasn't enough funding to get you to where you need to be or enough drive to stick with that full amount of time that really truly future vision of of where it needs to go or can you put your finger on anything or you think that's a you're you're glad to be moved on and you don't want to talk about anymore no I mean these are questions that I ask myself I mean are a with these were questions I asked myself while I then departed arm and also still are retrospective so are why didn't we succeed and why do we see today companies like our astrobotic or so our competitor in this market or in this in this race earlier is not surviving I would say succeeding even but succeeding in in terms of they raised money from from NASA as they they got access to to technology to really to the helping hand and the resources to make it possible I mean we see at the moment I think three or four companies ice base included from Japan also now moving to the US open on offers there we have dynamic dying intuitive machine so they all end of course team america led by blue or blue origin that that are heading to the moon so but they all are take off blue origin or from from that equation but all the others they need the funds from NASA and they another are dedicated to program called clips commercial lunar payload services worth I think 2.6 billion dollar to with the last administration to the to the moon charts to going back to the moon are and to stay are also as commercial entities and Europe wasn't there at that point of time and it's still not now I mean if you see the investment situation in terms of space in Europe or particular in Germany then when you go to somebody and say hey we want to build an infrastructure on the on the moon and that is in our telecommunication network or a power network or so on I would say questioning look of views or looks are the least what you can earn from it I mean you know that you go out and talk how to make this world a better place and people say yeah but wow that's a bold idea and then are yeah I I can't go further into the details and I don't want but I'm I've taken for me the decision to say it's time to time to move on to a beautiful learning lesson definitely yes oh yeah I and so much knowledge and growth out of it and but there's also I mean just I'm I'm two three times to move from from anything that you're involved in but I see it with a different lens I also see you know the big commercialization I see the branding the logos I see that the prizes whether it's the X prize or other prizes out there that are pushing for new innovations and drives and collaboration but those monies that they give in the prizes are just a tickle fraction of what's actually needed to to get there and so that there is still this whole separate thing that has nothing to do with with getting into space with getting anything landed that is a whole machine in and of itself of raising money and continually keeping that cash flow so that the company can focus in on its r&d on its innovation getting the getting the projects of space so my hat's off to you and and I was always pulling for you I'm I'm glad you moved on and found other other ways and now you're meeting with all the the great people and having wonderful conversations so SpaceWatch Global is this digital magazine and portal for those interested in space and far-reaching impact space development has on our world in that I'm sure you get to talk to the the superstars and get the great insights but do you go a little bit further and actually get into the nitty gritty where are the systemic problems where are the futures going where you know not just all we've got the super superstar here just came back from ISS space station or whatever and it's the only the the star-struck type of conversations do you what would you say out of all your 50 talks that you've had would you say wow that was enlightening so something that I just didn't know was going to come and and out of these conversations that I say that's that you've got to listen to that as something that changes your view on the space race or the space watch period absolutely and I mean all of these this talks that we we had or every single one is is for me on those levels to say wow worse to listen I mean yeah 50 times 30 minutes is a severe amount of time that you have to spend there to listen to all of them but they all had to say or had to say something so but back to your point we are definitely not cheerleaders for one of the big innovators or we have in this in this market the first thing what differentiates us as a as a platform as a magazine is we are Switzerland based we are per se independent and neutral so we are not following a specific market or a specific agenda of a country a nation an institution so that is absolutely important to to mention because with this independence we also have the liberty to have a separate view on things so we are advocating at some moment a lot for our space situational awareness a space traffic management for regulations and implementation of rules and laws on the international level I mean we have the outer space treaty that rules our behavior in space but then when you come to the details then I wouldn't say it's weak but it it didn't has a foresight to implement all of these things that are needed today I mean good example last year yeah last year no two years back the UN copious that is the committee of the peaceful use of outer space and has 95 countries or in and copious right now our copious came up with the adaptation of 25 LTS long-term sustainability guidelines for behavior in outer space what does it mean I'm not interfering with somebody I'm I'm I'm de-orbiting my stuff when it's when it's not used anymore and so on and so forth so it goes in and really in big details this the adaptation of the 21 guidelines took 10 years I would say we don't have these 10 years to implement them anymore and the implementation is obviously then nation the nation's obligation are they doing it are they implementing all just a few of them so there are no rules set for that and I mean look at Europe we have in Europe and few countries which are having assets in space does not have a space law including Germany also the space laws and the space policies in the various countries in Europe are differentiated from each other so in Luxembourg or under the Luxembourgish law you can appropriate resources in outer space so in others you can't because many of us think it violates the outer space treaty all of that is not clear I mean at the moment we are debating and that's definitely something where I say we are not cheerleaders we're seeing star starlink launching space x launching the starlink fleet are almost every second week so that means we count at the moment 1300 starlink satellites in space which is is over one third of the active satellites that we have held in one man's hand so and how many satellites does it need to make one specific orbit well thousand for starlink I think they were that's forecasted yeah yeah yeah so but even we see we see almost thousand I mean if you want to place your satellite in a specific orbit and this orbit is taken without I mean you can't appropriate an orbit but if you put your fleet up there it's taken by definition so and that causes a lot of harm or for others I mean we have all these assets in space and I mean imagine we will depend or I mean we spoke about cyber threats or the last week in my space cafe with one of the experts Jose Aschers from Switzerland and we spoke about internet from space why do we need that I mean we have I mean in most cities we have a wired connection or we have a great mobile network which is capable but what all of these lacking are rural areas and and wider areas as well so and we needed for autonomous driving autonomous vehicle not just driving everything on what what will move autonomous so we need a reliable system also supported by by space assets so now the geopolitical also the soft power comes into play if you're a private owner of such a network and the fleet of your cars is depending on these assets it is good if they're in one hand so the the car company Tesla and Starling so that is a match but what about Volkswagen I mean there are there are articles out in the in the press that Volkswagen is thinking about are building their own constellation or jumping on on the Starling constellation with their autonomous fleet but what does it imply when your competitor owns the platform and can you can your fleet or can you can you get can get down your fleet with a finger tip so how dangerous how difficult is that and that's just on the car side I mean there are other aspects are in the in the equation as well I mean that that led Europe or Terry Breton the EU commissioner earlier this year to this statement we need our own independent satellite constellation for Europe so few might may argue oh we don't need it we can use another one but it is a question of sovereignty it's a question of why do we have an Ariane or a rocket in Europe even it's so expensive yes we need this independent access to space or because otherwise we are depending and in Germany we see it or in the north with the entire discussion we have on a geopolitical level with Nord Stream 2 we see with the pipeline from Russia and the pressure Germany the German government and the companies involved get from from the American side so is that correct I would say no but who am I to to to judge on that but it's it does not feel right so it's amazing there are so many things that I mean definitely I recommend to all my listeners to go out and especially if they're I have quite a few space enthusiasts to go out and listen to your podcast and and go to space watch and in the space cafe as well we'll list all those links in the show notes and descriptions you kind of tickled upon it as well so copia is a UN base project just like corcia is a UN base project for air flight air traffic and carbon but there are these wonderful things around the the the united nations were nations have started to think about you know not just air travel not just space travel they're thinking this global bigger picture and yeah they're slow and and there's a whole another plethora of issues there but there are things already out there but most of us don't even know about it I bet you not even 1% of my listeners would say oh I didn't I knew about copia and we've got a lot of techies that that and that that was kind of a UN instigated thing or that it maybe came externally and then the UN brought the nations together as a platform to speak about this um that's why it's important it's almost this education this awareness this new phase of learning and that's why podcasts the cafes the things that we do are so vital because it's not always that we get this real-time update of collective intelligence of what's going on in our world what some of these big stories a lot of fake news a lot of misinformation a lot of uh just the stuff that doesn't do a lot to to keep your finger on the pulse of war a planet and humanity is going and so within that uh there's this other aspect there's many SDGs or UN awareness that are also tied to to space in general and I don't know if you can kind of tell us some of the ones that you're working on and what your thoughts are as far as sustainability and resilience in this you know reusing uh uh movement that's going on in space but then even maybe touch or tickle upon all the space junk I know you have some information about the space junk or some views or people you've you've spoken to about this as well absolutely um space is supporting or enabling a number of the SDGs that you all mentioned I mean we have 17 there are proposals for even having space as the 18th SDG are there various activities and initiatives out there to to bring that to the table because we are so heavily depending on that and we have to clarify or we we have to set our rule our rules to yeah not make a mistake that we will regret sooner or later because I mean you mentioned this is a space junk or or this is a space debris um we have the situation with the oceans and then it's it's not that extreme but or I mean we over years over over decades we polluted the the oceans and now we surprisingly are seeing that even the fish that we are catching from the sea has that micro plastics and it has an effect in the entire circle or on the ocean so also we have these massive islands and I don't know what the size is now of of garbage which is just there and I mean that is absolute frightening and we start to do that it's the same in in space I mean the intention of bringing up or a satellite network a satellite constellation to serve the world with with internet I would say that's something we all can under sign and say yeah that that's a great one at at the end it is a business yeah to make money out of that um and then also with all that making business keeping your your competitors out and and so on being faster market and so on and so forth so but the sustainability is something what is addressed more more but it's not hurt in my opinion and we advocate we don't have a paywall we don't put our our content behind or anything where you have to go and pay for information so we try to make ourselves stg number four compliant as best as possible that everyone who visits our website can access the same information there is no geo blocking or other methods or that that we use the information is available for everyone and that's very important that everyone can access the same level and make its own mind up that's that's also very important it's not that I'm saying we have the solution for everyone no we offer ideas we offer sources and people have to use their own mind to come up with their with their own solutions and I think one thing is good with space space excites people space drives innovation space is something you get a smile in your face I mean it it starts with this stuff around these these Legos where kids even adults or are having really big eyes while building it and putting it together and and just having fun with it and that is great I mean we all grew up with whatever depends on the philosophy or Star Wars or or Star Trek um but however it has an impact on us and the good thing is if we try to solve something for space it has an effect on earth but we should ask ourselves why don't we solve things on earth first before doing it in space or why do we have to use um something to play wire space to come back I mean so many innovations were made for space we are using day in day out on earth I mean and it's not Teflon that is one of the the myth that we have but canned food or all the easy the hard monitoring of and so on and you have huge offices at NASA at ESA at a JAXA that are doing spin outs so these technologies these patterns are available you can use them so and and to make a product out of it and I think that's that's that's great so we have these wells of knowledge we just have to use it in a in the right way and I mean the ISS is an not self-sustaining organism but they try to reuse as best as they can all the resources they have uh and that's air that's that's water and and so on and so forth and I think I mean we are blessed on living in in Hamburg or in Berlin or in many places or around the world with clean air with with our clean air green our green environment so but we as you know better than I we are messing it up in big scale and or we have to stop talking and take actions and I think that's that's very important and we um try to foster this dialogue that that that goes into this into this area so I mean none of us has the resources to say hey let's let's none of us are in our company has the resources to to really get things done in a in a big scale but at least we can foster these ideas and and inspire people to to think in the direction and that's why we do these dialogues that's why we do the podcast that's why we do the daily news reporting or features and and put them out and we hope we we will not give up on that no I'm I'm sure you won't and I'm rooting for you I had uh Lynn Kaiser on the show on did a podcast which just released today you're going to have him on your show or are already planning uh him um a super guy um also has a little ties to space but his way of production using ai and 3d printing to do new rocket boosters new new technologies that can be used on reusable or quickly printed locally um in a very efficient way which in some respects kind of is taking ai and doing even a twist on biomimicry kind of to get up the right shapes and the right things needed so I'm excited to to watch and listen to that I know you'll have have a wonderful time he's also very big in environment and sustainability and as as well I know you are as well and so that really leads me to two of my hardest questions for you what we we've talked a lot about communities and specific um countries who are dealing with space and like they're all kind of divided in their own regions or conflicts or areas that they can work in and they're not really guided by any global or universal laws or principles although they they exist or they're there into some respects but because of other boundaries and divisions or conflicts that they're kind of discombobulated so so to say so my my first hard question for you is do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without nations borders divisions of humanity one from another um and this type of thinking of maybe having a a global operating system one that worked for all of us you mentioned earlier uh I'm called myself a proud Berliner um that's that's correct I am but first of all I'm a european holding a german passport uh and living in Berlin arm and that what is some that's something that that makes me absolute proud and that's something I'm I'm fight for I think having an unified reunified unified europe is one of the biggest achievements in the last 70 80 years that we had on our continent and I see it with with high level of concern all these nationalistic approaches that we see in all countries it's it's not something only in Germany I mean see Poland see see France see see Italy see you can name them all yeah and that's that's for me concerning it has for me a lot to do with education it has to do with solidarity and has to do with yeah where we come from and I mean I can say and I'm open about it I mean I grew up in East Berlin or before the wall came down so and I experienced this just lives there are for over 20 years um so and that that is something I don't want to miss I don't want to or have a bag there is no glorification in oh that was so cool and in the east there were some elements that were not bad no doubt they are and maybe in centralized education system is better than a federal than than we have right now but the greatest asset is that we have a democracy and everybody has a voice so we have nobody who tells us what to think so we we are free individuals free humans will we that forever I don't know I hope we will but we see other trends as well so that is for Europe I'm not there to say I'm a global citizen yes of course I'm part of this world but at least I think I need to bounce somewhere and that is that is Europe for me um sure traveling the world going to the US yeah you feel okay going to Canada you you have much better feeling feeling home going Australia you say wow cool yeah I can imagine to to live here but routes are somewhere else so um I think we we we have to try to emerge onto this higher level and I'm I wouldn't say I'm too old but I'm not there yet I'm on the European level yeah and I try to support so solutions that help us are to to become really global citizen but I I fear it's an it's just an illusion or for for us and we will not see it in our lifetime and making the connect to space if I see or if I hear Elon and his ambition to go to Mars I say yeah wow that's pretty cool somebody who drives it who drives innovation but when the next sentence is then yeah but we will not accept taking our rules from the world to Mars I start questioning or I'm using or we are using our own currency on on Mars we just send bitcoins or so that is where I think we have to work on and we have to work on before it's too late so in the entire dialogue we have for new governance systems on moon on Mars you know these are highly relevant and highly important even they're out of out of space for most of us but if we don't have an agreement on on governance or on the moon we will take our problems or our conflicts from earth just to another place and might be the moon at in the first instance maybe Mars later on or wherever our our destiny will be in the future and that's not good you really touch upon something so you you mentioned Star Trek earlier now you're talking about what's the operating system the governance system what's the currency on the moon or Mars we don't take the same problems or the same systems from from earth and apply them there in Star Trek they had their own economics we call it Trekonomics so I'm a big Star Trek fan and also Star Wars and all the other space autosies movies you know that showed these sci-fi depictions of the future Star Trek had its own economy it's called it was called Trekonomics it was one based not on monetary system but there was a rare mineral that sometimes they talked about that that they needed but overall people weren't making a certain wage or credits for the jobs that they did yet they were engineers and doctors and security and and on and on it had clear to bartenders to psychologists to communications officers but they weren't making the regular dollar you know but yet those were highly sought after positions to be on certain things and there's a whole book written on it Trekonomics is the name of it actually and it's it's absolutely fabulous we this goes back to the question of global citizen in a world without nations borders divisions of humanity one for another what if we had a a new global operating system for the earth one that worked for all of humanity where we raised the bar higher and said okay we're never going to let humanity suffer below this level again no poverty no hunger no basic needs the the not universal basic income much different and much higher and then yeah we're going to still have problems but we've just set the bar higher on a global level to agree humanity one with another being someone myself and you who think to deal a lot without our space and Mars and moon and about the innovations and technologies it's really funny because in that respect if there were aliens if there was if we do make it back or if we do make it to Mars or the moon back to the moon and set up a colony there will those people look back at earth and say well look at those crazy guys they can't even get along together yet they're all the same species why are they fighting against them if an alien were to visit our planet they'd say aren't you guys all the same species why are you fighting against each other what's the what's the difference we don't even have a unifying operating system for our planet and I think the reason I sparked that question is we're all breathing the same air we're all drinking the same water it's all circulated on our planet the species don't have borders the covid and corona doesn't have any borders it doesn't stop at the border and so we're we're lacking a unified new operating system in my opinion I think all over the the the earth we are seeing this civil unrest we're seeing a dis ease at the current operating systems and models and governments and and things that they're just not working for us all anymore and that's why we see difficulties with inaugurations we see difficulties with black lives matters we just just uh very recently was in in Atlanta the Asians that uh were were killed and brutally murdered because of a racial issue uh in some respects we haven't evolved too much from the neanderthal yet we're talking about space and so we need to get together and unify somehow on a new on a new system that works for us all and that really leads me to my hardest question for you today and it is the burning question wtf and you've heard it before it's not the swear word it's really what's your vision what's your understanding of where do you think we're going what's the future torsten i'm an optimist are by heart sometimes with a pessimistic outfit and i know that uh but at the moment i i do have a hard time to envision a positive future for us if we stay on this track where we are um i mean i'm i'm asking most of my guests the same what would serve you on our future in space as humans are and the answers are as diverse as you can imagine or so um we will have an um summit in preparation are where we will discuss a few of the future models that we can envision are in in space or so from an elysium type to in hey we all go there and love each other and are having a good time on on mars moon and and wherever but i think it's it's not that likely that we will be there and um i think we have to radical and you you talk about the is a global governance system we have to make radical changes of our relationship to appropriation of goods of land of of of property i mean that's what is the base for for for our rule set that that we have in the various countries and i think that's also the the base for many of the conflicts on resources on economic challenges i mean that's why we have migrants it's it's war or economic drive or climate change or something else that comes comes into this equation now so but with the current system i don't see where where that will go i mean we have seen earlier this no last year we have seen all the um involvement of the Artemis Accords and the Artemis project and when you see that from the outside you say wow yeah Artemis going back to the moon are with commercials and other countries but was it what what it is for me and that's how i see it it's it's legal in its in its in its structure without any doubt um but i think it's it's not a good approach because it's one country leading or their way to the moon okay inviting others but based on their rule on on on their rule set so i mean if you apply to the to the to the Artemis rules you can be part of that so but that's of course exclusive and that's not the the spirit that are that we would see from from the UN or from UNOSAR the United Nations Office of Autospace or Space Affairs or our corpios so and because this for us are consents driven and yes it is questionable can we reach consents today on these major topics also something where we need to put some efforts in what we what bottom line is our technology is evolving so fast and that's not just space technology it's AI it is all these are these new algorithms that we see with that that's quantum technology that we hardly can manage and understand but it and it will sooner or later have its own conscious its own being so and i think then we are in in scenarios that we don't want to see will we experience that i don't know but i mean having a look at uh to china on their social profiling i don't feel comfortable with with that applying here in europe where we coming from the east just got our freedom our liberty to think what we want to to say what we want and i'm not sure that we can answer all these fundamental questions about aliens arm i can i like to refer to episode number 22 of our podcast we had avi lube the harvard professor in our show in the podcast and avi lube is the one who talked about omu omu these object that came from outside our solar system and passed by and went away and it had a shape very long very thin and and made shadows and he said that could be a starship from a foreign our civilization and the big question is why didn't they had a look at us and he said are you looking at the answer and on the on the street no i mean who are we that we believe we are the i mean the top of the evolution evolution are maybe there are other species other forms of life that are more developed and they're just ignoring us and as you say so looking at us and say why are those guys fighting doesn't make sense but let's move on so and i think i mean i i don't have answers on on these questions and i can tell you it's it's it's sometimes it does not feel good not to have answers but or at least we we we are driven by the desire and the hunger to find answers maybe not create answers by our own but but here answers from others adapt those or and go into a dialogue and that's our mission that we have for us defined so we want to go out and foster this dialogue on on various levels and so the the guests that i'm i'm having are part of that conversation to go out and it's also to address all these topics space related to the other 99 percent which don't have a clue which don't have an interest for for them is star trek enough or star wars enough but reality i'm using my cell phone why do i need a gps system uh yeah because you're using your cell phone you should be at least aware of it you don't have to understand how it works yeah you don't have to go into the into the chipset of the computer of the computer to understand what a computer can do for you and um but at least raising the awareness for why we spend our a few dollars on on space or in e you or in in the u.s. it's it's very important i absolutely love that it's really about it's not really about having the answers always but it's nice to ask the question and kind of wonder is there a better system or is there an answer and and kind of listen to all the different positive whether it's space whether it's sustainability whether it's a biodiversity whether it's business whether it's a innovation that we're kind of up to speed with the collective intelligence of humanity wondering where is the model that we're currently operating on no matter where we live what the model that you know is in germany if we push that model out into the future is that one that will really take us to the future is it a model that's eventually going to collapse or is not very well set to get us to the future that we want to be in so i like to just see that you you are thinking about the question that you're honest enough to say you don't have the answers because i i don't think any of us do but there are some thought leaders out that they really have have some plans have some done some thinking about it and and presented different ideas and possibilities obviously one of them is uh uh is the sustainable development goals the paris agreement the un um um accords for space and air travel and other things that have kind of thought about you know where are we going what do we need to have in the future to be prepared um there's the donut economics there's the the new green deal there's you know there's some things definitely emerging as important that that someone's looking out for that because as you and i well know we're going to be sorely disappointed if we're waiting for someone else or others to deliver the future for us it's definitely won't be what we want or what we think we expected it'll be what they want and what they expected and maybe that that'll be good for us but uh it might not and so we need to get involved we need to ask ourselves these questions i only have three last questions for you uh before we end this and they're really for my listeners um the first one is is there if there was one message that you could depart to my listeners that uh was a sustainable takeaway that had the power to change their life what would it be your message i mean this is a big question for for for wisdom to to others um i'm not good at it or to be honest i mean what i say um that people ask me hey what can we do is be yourself be open to new new ideas and i mean don't be hard-cornered or in your in your thinking be be open and i mean moonshots exist or it's it's like black swans i mean moonshots just sound better um and they exist you just have to look for them and you have to yeah also let them happen or initiate them by yourself but my message is to each and every be yourself be honest be transparent and don't try to pretend somebody you are not i mean that's on a very personal level of course because i i don't see myself to give bigger advice that's that's perfectly fine and you're absolutely right black swans do exist but also uh green swans exist so i got uh going to helping things but green swans ugly ducklings exist uh black swans with green feathers or green swans with black feathers there's gray swans um i want us to be aware that you know there's it's there's there's not always this gray area there's not always this black and white there is a diversity just with like with exponential or the future there's two sides to that there's a doom and gloom and negative side and then there's a very positive side i think to to be thinking about the question or to be able to depart to listeners some advice or or help or ways to look at things differently and i and i get that from your show i get that from your in-depth wonderful answers you've given me today but what should young innovators in space and then and um space watching and and computer science and space engineering and and all those things similar to what you're doing in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to to make a real impact or to to get in even they're put in the to the door in this direction so that they can be part of the journey uh that we're going wherever it is i mean first of all we have to say everybody can find his or her place in the space industry the space industry is not a place just for tech guys just for engineers you need all of them and we touched on a few points earlier you need lawyers you lead our people that that take care about food security you need medical people i mean today we will not survive a flight to the mars we will die on our way so how to set up a civilization when you're dying on your way that is that is that is hard to imagine so we have to find answers to that to that first so and how to get into this industry yeah be be open i mean there's so much going on our our platform is just one element of this wide ocean of information that you can find um as a young or citizen you can enter the or or join the sgac the space advisory council space space generation advisory council so that was missing a youth organization till 35 or till the age of 35 where you can engage yourself with with one of the bigger programs you have the is you mentioned before the international space university and many others luxembourg university has programmed berlin has has a fantastic program on the engineering side for space i have to say our carl's rule and so on and so forth here in germany and then you have these really these these absolute fantastic universities in the states are which offering great programs for space enthusiasts so if there is a will then there is a way yeah and i mean we are not living in a time where you have where you get when you're born the blueprint how to how to live your life so when you go to chapter 18 so what i'm doing this day that doesn't exist i mean find your own way and work and and work hard on it i love it thank you very much what have you learned or experienced in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start persistence persistence i mean don't give up on your ideas i mean it's it's hard to or it's easy to find an idea to run for it and then also to drop it for whatever reason that's easy or but to stay with an idea to run for it and i'm using running here again or i'm a not a good one but i'm at least i was a passionate marison runner and i've done it a couple of times or and running a marison for somebody with my stature our age is is is not a pleasure at all i mean you train are for for many months and then you run it and at least at kilometer 30 it is it's it's hard and everything hurts and then you're just pushed by the spectators or forward but when you make it that's really rewarding i mean all these endorphins whatever it is something cool happens in your body afterwards and you're you're flying yeah you're over the moon and that's something great and that only can happen when you're not giving up and my point is for me i adapted marison changed my life marison running marison training changed my life or and and how i see things how i deal with things i mean you win you you can't win a marison on the first mile because you're super sporty and you're running fast no you have to find your pace and you keep on going you keep on going sure a wise leadership or advice is sometimes look back if people are still following you otherwise you're on your own um that is also something what i experienced a few times that uh at one point you are alone you ask hey i was just running yeah but a bit too fast for for the rest so again monitor yourself and um yeah this wisdom of age are to learn that before that would be great and yes we all heard it before because our parents told us our grandparents told us but we haven't been listened to them because hey damn what do they know they are just old yeah but now we see hey yeah maybe we had listened to them that's just on the side note yeah thank you so much torson it was wonderful it was great to have you on the episode and i hope we can do a follow-up again next year and we'll stay in touch as we come out of these lockdowns and and to the great reset i really appreciate it you have a most excellent wonderful day thanks for sharing and letting us inside your ideas mark thank you for for having me