 Welcome to Reader Syndicate 3.0, the next evolution of the look into counterculture that is Canada. My name is Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds, and this started as a one-man mission for strain history and breeding science. Over time, it's evolved into something bigger, better, and more of a team effort. We will be joined by members of the Cannaluminati and other friends throughout the season to hear their takes on grow techniques, breeding science, strain history, and more. Our mission is to combat the narrative that corporate cannabis and seed posers are obfuscating for their own financial benefit. Welcome to the Underground. We are The Syndicate. Do you have any experience with Uptown Hayes, Piff? Uh, NL5 Hayes. Yeah. Right, they're all Piff, Cuban Black, the cough, the dog shit. They're, I strongly believe they're all just NL5 Hayes, just renamed. There was a lot of them that he stole. Right, and I just did work, I just made a cross with one of my lemon trees. I made some Fem seeds with the lemon tree of mine and processed it. I'm so glad you brought it here, the lemon tree. It's good, you know, the Piffs, all those NL5s are fucking, all those NL5 Hayes, they're dominant when you cross them. The time I played around with them, they've always taken over. Good stuff, you know, in the past, I wasn't much of a fan of those. They just kind of made my head spin a little too much. But now, like, I've been smoking them more and more and enjoying them more and more. You know, I'm getting older, so my body's changing and whatnot. For sure. And, yeah, they got, you know, it kind of reminds me of Cat Piss a little bit, the NL5 Hayes, it's got that funky, especially in the air, like, if you're at a concert or something and someone lights one of those up, you see heads whipping, like that smells like fingers, right? See, I just did those lemon tree Piffs, and they grow like the Piff, tall, and then the flavors have been ranged from lemon tree to the Piff and everything in between, you know. What was your sourcing for the Piff? Cuban Black Hayes, I got the Cuban Black Hayes, and then my buddy said they came from one of the phone guys. What do you say? Not Darkheart, Purple City genetics is where my buddy got the Piff. He gave me a couple. He gave me that one and a different one from that Piff Coast guy, something three Piff Coast three, I don't remember, but I like the Cuban Black a little bit better. So you mentioned lemon tree. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. What do you say? So when I was growing those two Hayes out, the other one from Piff Coast, the number three, looked hella good, hella frosty, finished earlier, but in my climate it got powdery mildew, a little too formal. So I decided to stay against that, you know. I like easy growing plants. I like plants where after I harvest it, I can take off a bud right off the plant without curing it and making my mouth water. That's what I'm always going after. The stuff that I got to cure and wait, I don't know, I want to taste good right off the fucking bat. So most of my strains that I work with, that's what they are. Yeah. So CSI specifically wanted me to ask you about lemon tree. I knew one of the lemon tree brokers in the bay. Young guy, anyhow. He pretty much branded lemon tree and another one. And every time he'd buy packs, he would find seeds inside of him. So he ended up giving me about a hundred seeds, a little bit more of the... So they're essentially lemon tree, hermy seeds. The actual clone, south seeds here and there. So I grew out all the seeds. Some of them popped out looking like sour diesel, even kind of smelling like sour diesel. And then the rest were short, different degrees of shortness, different degrees of that, that terp. You know, everybody says lemon tree, lemony. But to me, it's... I smell California orange. I don't know. So to me, it's more orangey, but I don't know what you want to call those terps. So yeah, I picked out the best citrus. Yeah, strong citrus. Grew all the seeds out. I ended up with seven that I picked out. And then from those seven came down to three of them. And then from those three, I kept the one. And then I gave the guiding me the seeds, all the cuts. And then he ended up giving them out to a couple of people, like that Grand Flora mark or whatever. Oh yeah, Grand Flora. Yeah, so he used one of those cuts to make his melanade. What did I have? I had a two, four. I kept the two, four and a... I don't remember. They all kept the one that was the easiest to grow, that had really good terps. And that's what the Grand Flora guy used. The one that I ended up keeping was a little bit harder. It was definitely finicky with the over watering. But it had more of terps than the other ones. It was just a little bit more finicky to grow. So I think that's why the other guys never really went with it. Yeah, so not much to tell about that. Hermes seeds, grew them all out, and then started back crossing, back crossing and back crossing. And of course, I stress out everything, just to make sure they don't harm on me. Over again, until they're right. With the lemon tree, have you ever tried the Oregon lemon diesel prior to the lemon tree? I haven't, I haven't. I always wondered when different people try the lemon tree, if they see any relation to it. It's interesting that you see so much diesel in it too, because that story is always kind of stuck with it. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people, especially guys from Oregon always say the lemon tree is just that, that Oregon lemon diesel renames. But you're very well could be, you know. Have you tried lemon jeep? Yeah, yeah. What did you think of that, comparatively? Tall, easy grown plant. I don't know, I'd rather grow a calio. Maybe it is calio. You know, calio, like, it just tasted good, smelled good, but there wasn't, you know, lemon jeep. Yeah, lemon jeep is pretty similar to that. The lemon tree is by far the best, citrusy, ganja plant that I've come across. I don't know, like it's got the flavor, and it's got a good buzz to it. And I mean, of course, it's one of the strains, like if I smoke it for two or three days, it's not getting me that high anymore. But the first few days, it's great, it tastes great. Because actually, I'm smoking some lemon tree G33 right now. How is it? It's delicious. So I made a bunch of them, and I ended up growing them all out myself this year, and picked out a few. I've been doing the little smoke testers for a couple of days, but grow like the gelato, look like gelato, but have straight, sippy, raspberry cane flavor. Oh, nice. Yeah, total improvement on both, I think, on both strains. Right, and that's like the ultimate goal of the very area, you know. Improve something structure-wise, flavor-wise, pothose-wise. There's always a reason why I'm doing something, right? It's not like I'm going to go just cross this to a bunch of everything else. There's always some kind of madness behind the thought. It's either, you know, with the lemon tree reversals that I did, I picked out easy, tall, fast-growing plants to cross the lemon tree, because the lemon tree is short and squat, right? Yep, yep. So I wanted a tall, fast-growing, lemon tree flavor, but stony. So everything I picked out, like the Blue Dream or the Biff and gelato, I also did a GMO, but I've worked the GMO a couple of times. It seems like it spits out a lot of Hermes on me with every cross done with it. So, yeah, anyhow, I grew out all the fucking gelato ones, so I don't have any more of those, but the lemon tree and the, the Blue Dream and the Piffs I ended up releasing those just recently and a total improvement on both, you know. Blue Dream, I know a lot of people hate it, but it's still like, I love it, too. I love the high of Blue Dream, dude, like the high, the taste, the smell, all of it. Yeah, it's great. When it's grown outright, it's fucking delicious, right? Yeah, absolutely. And then some of these lemon tree Blue Dream ones, like the ones that are right in the middle with Flavorwise, where you got a little bit of that Blue Dream and a little bit, they're fucking delicious, and the frost factor is just like increased to a hundred folds. Like they just complemented the other perfectly. Always. That's cool. So, a lot of people don't know, and I don't know how much you want to talk about this in detail, but a lot of us that received Kim91 later on, oh, oh, you did a gratitude for it, even reaching our hands. There's a lot of people within that. Are you open to talk about that? About which one? Kim91? Kim91. I got that from Jason Skunkpie. He was at my neighbor's house in Willets over there, and then I just, I went over there and we started talking. And I know, I remember not so dog at one of the harvest parties, early 2000s, raving about Kim91. Kim91, right? Him and a couple other people of his crew, right? Yeah. Oh, you guys don't even know. And it fucking, you know, it built up the meals. Like, mother fuckers. I did. That, you know, I heard it from them for a while. And then one day, yeah, I was at my neighbor's house and Skunkpie's over there, and we started yapping and chatting. He was like, dude, I got the Kim91. And then like, he started talking about the Hydra store guy in Willets, who also had the fucking Kim91. So I knew he was legit because he knew all the same people and like where he came from and everything. So I told him, I was like, you know, dude, I'm, you know, I just play around making seeds for myself. You kick down the cut. I'm, you know, make seeds and I'll give you every direction. So I ended up taking that Kim91 to back cross three. And then what did I get? I got the, and then the chem fours and all that, the chem one, two, three, whatever came out. And Caleb hooked me up with all of those. Spectre gave me all of those and I grew all those out. And that four was just fucking to me was the best one. Flavor wise. Same. The rest are, they're good. Like the, the chem 91 to me is, is very OG, OG to me. Flavor wise. But, you know, SFV to me was way, way, way better. Infinitely. And easier to grow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, that chem nine nose was Halifniki. So anyhow, I ended up giving a scum VA seeds all, you know, for every single cross that I made with this chem 91. And then I gave him all the, a bunch of chem proceeds and what not to. Yeah. So yeah, that was the, the chem 91 came from him. And then I gave it to Caleb and the rest is history from that, you know. So Bubba Cush, Bubba, Bubba, Bubba Cush. What's, what's this, the back sourcing story on that? Like, again, a lot of us. So I did a gratitude for you for us even having Bubba. Bubba, I got from another glass blower, a Bishop, really talented glass blower. And he got it. He, I remember him saying he got it from this guy that would, all I remember it was like, he would just pack fat bowls, take one hit and then spit out the bowl. It could be organ kid is, is what it sounds like to me. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, he gave me the cut in 99, I think it was. Okay. He gave me a cut of that. And yeah, from, from that is just, you know, I passed it around to random folks here and there. Caleb, you guys on the old forums back in the day, Fletch, you know, and that's how I met Fletch for the second time and one came really good friends after that. Yeah. Most of it, most of all these things came from back in the day with the glass blowing community. That's great. There were Trinity, you know, what's that? Trinity, Trinity, I got from Caleb. Okay. And I've grown that out a couple of times and I've made a bunch of crosses. That one's, that one is one where you need to grow a shit ton of seeds and root. Right? It comes out with all different kinds of flavors and looks, growth structures. Oh, you know what? Another, I forgot when Jason gave me that the clone of the Cam 91, he also gave me a shit ton of hermy seeds from it too. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So I dug through that and there was some weird fun stuff that Cam 91, like some full on Indica plants popping up, some real short, squatty, like Pakistani kind of looking leaves, not so thick and wide, but more slender. Yeah. So there was some interesting stuff in there, but I never came across one that had that gas in there. I remember they were a little bit different. Yeah. You did his favorite run of sour diesel flower. And I think he said you use power flower nudes, flower power? Flower power. Yeah. It was a dirt brand. It was a bag of dirt and the guy that made that was up in Trinity County. That's a funny story. The guy that made that was in Trinity County, and he had this bog or some shit on his property. And what he did was he just fucking dug that shit up, threw it in the chipper, and then bagged it up. Right? Yeah. And it was all the rage back in the early 2000s. And there was no pearlite or anything. So you had to mix all that shit in. The sour diesel that I was talking about is I had a house in the Sunset District in San Francisco. And these houses are built to grow in. The meter, so the garages are all tandem style, right? So you were able to like, you know, build a wall next to the garage door, and then you had the whole back. And then some people, the meter, the PG&E guys would have to come in and like look through a little window for the meter. So they weren't able actually to get to the meter. I never did this, but some people could have tapped into that shit. Hell, easy to. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Right? So I was growing sour in this house. And next door, I had a grower to the left of me. And so the right of me was like maybe a brothel house or something like that. So sometimes the place will get stunky. And it's, you know, I'm like two blocks from the beach. So powdery mildew was the thing. So I'd always have to turn it on the sulfur burners. And when I would turn them on, I would just put it on a timer and leave. And then come back eight hours later, right? Yeah. But every time I would come back, the people in the store in the brothel place, like they would be all in the driveway and spitting on my driveway and flicking their cigarettes. It must have made the place stink pretty bad. One day the other grower came over and he was like, bro, there's these things called carbon scrubbers filters. He's like, I tend to have a fucking stink. So the sour though, what I found is you're going to lose a lot of your yield. But if you root balance our diesel, grow it in a small pond, the buds get super dense on you. You get super dense and crazy, crazy frosty. And like all that fucking turf just gets crazy, like concentrated for some reason. But the yields, you lose a lot of yield. Tons of yield. Yeah. It gets lost on that. So it's, you know, what do you want? I always went after the best possible smoke, right? So yield was the last thing on my mind. Turbs first? Yeah. Yeah. That's where that sour came from. Powerflower and age old is what I used back then. That's good. That's good advice, man. So root bound power. Well, you can't get power flower now obviously. They ended that story. Do you mind telling it? What happened to the bog? To the what? Oh, the bog guy. So yeah, the power flower guy, he ended up getting in trouble with the fucking environmentalists for digging all that shit out and ended up shutting him down. It was like an ancient like redwood forest bed, wasn't it? Something like that? It was just like a pond that he fucking drained out and dug it all out. And then he just throw everything through a fucking wood shipper and bag it up in these brown bags and just say power flower and like I fucking made a killing because it was like it was all good back then. Yeah. Everything you're going to have. If you weren't grown with it, you weren't cool. Yeah. Yeah. My buddy goat farm grew a bunch of train wreck in the power flower and was talking about it today earlier and that reminded me to bring it up. So one of my, one of the things that I'm most fascinated with that you've worked with that I've never, I've never even grown a cut of it. I've only grown hybrids because it's not widely passed or you know, is the purple indica. What can you tell us about that? Another one comes from archive. He forced it up in Seattle area. Short, stout, grapey, molded, helly easy. I don't know. I've seen it. I've seen it floating around Northern California, but they called it purple kish back then. Yeah. Right. And then what else? It had another name to it. Ultra violet. I think they might have called it. And the PNW was another. Yeah. There's been a bunch. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I got that from Fletch and besides that, I have no idea of the history behind it. Short little indica plant. I just remember the mold. It would mold so easy. It was like the first thing to mold on me. That's gnarly. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful plant. You know. How is the smoke from it? That's the one thing I don't know for you. Oh shoot. It's been so long. Grape-ish. Not like her called grape, but grape-y, skunky to it. It's like an old school purple afi. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Just old school purple afghani. Most like broadleaf, short, big, big, like arm-sized buds on it. You know, indoor, different, you know, still short, kind of, but more like a bubble-sized bud zone, you know. Yeah. Outdoor, the whole plant would turn into a bud. I've always just wondered why, like, what was, what was the reason that it remained so locked, other than just mystery, you know? I'm just always thinking. If that, like Albert Walker and the Malawi, all those floated around the Washington area quite a bit. There was another one, like Pez, King Pez, or some shit like that. Yeah. Yeah. Those, like, they're, they're, they're, they're jam-o. They're, what, more the steve, as I remember back then, they're like a lot of the steve plants. So, every region has their own time, what, this year, last year, you know, L.A. in early 2000s with OG, you know, areas with purple or full, you know, about every 10 years it seems like the trend kind of changes to something else. Yeah. Have you noticed that most people lost their OG cuts? Do you get hit up about that a lot? No. No, I'm, I'm so out of the loop, dude. I don't, I'm getting old. I don't talk to nobody. I don't buy weed from anybody. Like, I don't even know how much weed goes. I don't even know the prices anymore. Yeah, I don't. I have no clue. Yeah. The one, the one thing I've been hearing a lot is I've been getting tons of DMs from other seed makers and shit. No one kept OG cuts. No one. So, I have a feeling your, your OG seed, seed sales are going to skyrocket soon because it's heavily in demand and no one kept them. Right. I noticed that they has been doing a little bit better than the other strength so far. I see a lot of people are going back to ours as well. Yeah, absolutely. It seemed like it's making, so the gas is coming back, right? And as it should, because, you know, weed nowadays looks fucking incredible. I mean, it's the most beautiful I've ever seen it. Absolutely. But it's just not much to it, you know, it all looks the same now. They all, they don't really have the turps that I'm looking for. And like, OG is still my favorite. That's my go to the gas, OG's. Hard to beat, man. That flavor, the lip smacking flavor. The flavor and the fact is just like, it just never disappoints. It always, it always works. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I wanted to ask about one, a couple of things. So one, I've heard you mentioned recently, it's called the PC3 and it's an NL5 haze. Okay, yeah, the PC3. The PC3 was that one from Piftos. Gotcha. And like I was saying, that's the, I grew it side by side with the Cuban black cut. And that PC3 looked incredible, had the flavor, had that deep haze flavor. Finished, finished earlier than the Cuban black. But for me and my climate, like it just, it got powdery mildew a little, a little too easy. So that's why I didn't stick with it. Like the powdery mildew is a fuck you up out here. So I kind of get away from plants that get it super easy or plants that mold, hell easier, whatnot. And there was some Blockhead and Lovecandy. What was your favorite expressions to come out of that? So Lovecandy, Blockhead and Lovecandy are the same. Okay. I asked reader Steve, I was like, Hey man, you know, I've been working the strain. Are you cool if I release it? And he was just like, you know, as long as you don't call Blockhead, I don't give a fuck what you do. It's like, oh yeah. Lovecandy it is. That was my cash proper in the late 90s, early 2000s. Kush Cleaner ended up replacing that Blockhead for me. But back then outdoor, it finished early and it had the look. It had that almost an indoor look where actually a lot of people were passing it off as indoor. Like a melon, like a cantaloupe, melon, I don't know, typical spice of life flavors. Easy to grow, fucking hell easy to trim, produce big and just crazy frosty. So like I said, it was my cashcropper for days. I worked that one heavily. I back crossed it a couple of times and then I lost the clone. And then buddy mine, Kendo, he used to go online by Kendo. He still had it and he ended up passing it all throughout Oregon. And then he brought it back to me. I back crossed it another time. And then I don't remember what happened. I lost the cut. And then from there I started going F1, F2, F3 with it. But like cashcropper again early, like every seed comes out identical. There's no variation. That's the ultimate, right? Like for me anyways, like if I really something, I want it to be uniform. Right, that was my goal for outdoors. Like I wanted to grow 100 seeds of one variety. And I wanted to be able to mix everything together and have no one know the difference. Yeah, right. So that was always the goal. So all my heavily worked stuff, all of that comes out. I did that up for good breeders. Everything's the same. I can get crazy variation or nothing like that. Of course there's slight, slight little differences. Maybe one tastes a little bit more than the other, but they all have the same turf profile. But compared to the lines even 15, 20 years ago, the uniformity is vastly different though, right? Like that's the thing. There'd be small differences, but to most people they wouldn't even probably notice those differences. Most people aren't going to know the differences at all. But me, you know, since I'm attached to them and you know, I'm my worst critic. I always feel like I can do better. You know, I got fridge full of stuff that I've never released. There are people who are like, dude, let them out, let them out. But like I'm just not 100% with them. So they're just tucked away. I wanted to ask you sort of an open question here. So you mentioned Gelato before and obviously you're someone who is known for working with older stuff and you know, preserving some of that. What's it like to work with modern hype stuff? What are your thoughts on that? I haven't worked too much stuff. But the stuff that I worked with, I get more hermaphrodites out of them. The newer stuff, all the cookie stuff. Yeah. The Gelato 33 has been my favorite. More because of the structure of the plant. It grows big. Super easy. The buds are really big. It's pretty. It smells good. Super easy to grow. Or like the other one. Right, super easy. Yeah. It was more of the structure of it. So this year I'm starting to work with bringing in that look. But keeping my flavors. Like you know, I'm going to try to get mixed. My first is I'm going to work a 707 kush into a, let's say, Oreos crossed to lemon cherry Gelato. And they came from obsolete. I did a big run of them. Like most modern stuff, not much flavor to it. Kind of like a doll vanilla flavor. Not much. But it looks incredible. So is your decision to work with some of the stuff strategic? In the sense of like, you know, so yeah. So this cut that I'm starting to work with it finishes really, really early outside end of September. Looks like indoor, but it lacks flavor. It lacks soul really. Has no flavor and not much of a buzz to it. So my plan is I'm going to incorporate the 707 kush. Grow a shit ton of seeds. Pick out the ones that have the look. But that OG can do it. Smoke them. If it gets me high goes around to, right? And these are I'm going to just do fence, right? I'm going to do, and I'll make S ones of them and then all those across sister plants together, you know, and then from that, just go forward. Get the potency, get the flavor I want, but have this modern day look and that's a plan I'm going to start doing with everything that I like smoking. First is that the 707 kush, which is a perfect blend of the Kaminoji. Yeah. And then next plan is with the potion, get that forbidden fruit flavor in there. And I didn't, I should have done it, but actually I didn't even have the plant when I was making the lemon tree ones, but also the lemon in there as well. Yeah. Early on, like in our show, I talked about breeding and the difference between breeding and seed making. And when I, when I've spoken about you before on the show, I referred you as a breeder's breeder. And I just wanted to illustrate this is because you don't, you don't do things with with no intention. Everything has a reason. It's an art piece that you're trying to create. It's not just, oh, fuck it. Almost see what happens type thing with everything. You know, so I really appreciate that. I hope everybody tunes in on that. Thanks man. Thanks man. And then the other thing with that Oreo's lemon cherry gelato, it finished hella early. So if I can get the look of that, have it finished early, but have potency of, of OGs and the flavor of OGs or, you know, whatever kind of flavor, that's ultimately cool. That's what I'm, that's what I'm going to try to work on like this next year or so. And they're, they're going to be femme. So I think it'll go pretty quick rather than, you know, like with males. If I try to chase that hype strain by the time I'm done making it, a thousand other people have already made it. Absolutely. By the time like I'm happy with the release, it's, it's, it's already gone done and moved on to something else. That's why I see all my like the older strains with me. That's it. I like what you're in outdoor production. I like what you're implying here as well. Like the sense that like on the one hand you're being fashioned forward, but you're also kind of sticking to your guns and trying to preserve like what you already know to be ideal for yourself. In the end, I'm really making seeds just for myself. I just got lucky enough to be able to make a buck off of them now. I feel really blessed off of it. But really it's like what, what, what do I need and what's going to fit my needs is, is something that finishes hell. Like outdoor greenhouse, more outdoor. I'm thinking of what usually is, I want to finish early to have a look. I want to fucking taste good and I want to get you really high is the goal. And to be able to like grow out a hundred seeds outside and them all turn out exactly the same. You know, and especially now with the whole legal market and these commercial guys. Imagine if they were able to grow something like that, not have to worry about Hermes or nothing like that. And all the plants turned out the same. Their, their yield is just, you know, it'll easily go up 25% to 50% by doing seed and less and less and less problems, you know, insects, all that stuff. You know, the seed fucking does way better than a clone does. Absolutely. Absolutely. And now you have to worry about HLV with clone and all sorts of other issues too, you know. Oh yeah, I experienced that for the first time this year. I got some clones and I really don't bring in clones too often. I ended up getting some kind of folks this year and a funky and I was like, what the fuck's going on with this? And started looking it up and then sent everything to the lab and boom, there it is. It's fucking positive. Now I'm freaking out thinking, oh my God, it's spread to everything. And yeah, luckily it didn't spread and kept on retesting and retesting. You know, not everything comes back negative now, but that was kind of scary. It is scary. Man, back in the day, we never had powdery mildew in the 90s. That wasn't a thing at all. I didn't even know about that until the early 2000s. It was actually when Ed Rosenthal started selling clones and his growth was the ones that were covered in it and ended up spreading powdery mildew across the world with that fucking shit. Yeah, it's just that easy. What was it? Maybe 10 years ago, the fucking russet mites and broad mites came out. That was all brand new. Now you got fucking hopliden or whatever. So you go with seeds, good problems. But then I was reading that the fucking hopliden goes into the seed too. So that's pretty scary. So we've talked about that a little bit. I interviewed a HLV specialist and I was getting real specific with the questions because I wanted to know like, does this transmit in cannabis at that 8% rate that people keep quoting? And the fact is they haven't done any tests on cannabis and seed transmissions rate. They're bringing over rates from hops and just kind of assuming that it's going to be the same. Knowing exactly who's working with duds out there, what clones are dutted and how many of the seed makers are using them and people are popping those seeds, it can't be 8%. It just can't. It would be so massive right now everywhere through seed distribution. So I'm not sure. But yeah, the tests were hops-based, the 8% thing. But it will be interesting to see over time how it turns out. Yeah, totally. Totally. I know there's some scary shit out there. I'm done bringing in clones. I did get a really good sour diesel this year. I was pretty stoked on. And I grew that motor breath 15 for the first time. That's a good one. Pretty stoked on that one too. Yeah, it's nice. It's a nice division of chem and OG. Is that what it is? Chem OG? It's cookies or something. No, motor breath is chem DOG. Chem DOG. Okay. That makes sense. I get the chem D flavor comes through and it's pote. It's a real pote. Yeah, it's a good one. But besides, yeah, I'm not bringing in anymore clients anymore. Are there any breeders out now, or not even now, like in the past that you'd like to highlight and say, like, yeah, they did some pretty cool shit. And I think they deserve some props. Spice of life breeders receive the shit that he did in Switzerland. Yeah, dude. All the stuff that he made in Switzerland was awesome back in the day. Yeah. Look good, smell good. Bubble bags just came out around that time. They all washed, hella good. And everything was consistent. You grow out of pack of seeds. Most of them all fucking turned out how they were supposed to. Right. His stuff was really good. And then the Shanti Baba stuff back in the 90s. Yeah. What was rooted and I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I heard he was like, you know, making seeds for other companies like homegrown fantasies, you know, and he was just, and I remember those fantasies, too. They had an Afghani that was really, really good. And all of them came out pretty consistent. I never see their stuff at all anymore. They used to be a big brand and had a coffee shop and everything. And now you don't see anybody, nothing in anybody's collections from homegrown fantasies anymore. Kind of sucks. Yeah. The end with, with, because I've grown out a lot of the Mr. Nice. It's definitely not the same as it was in the 90s. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, who knows. But yeah, those were the two guys from back in the day that stood out. I could go on forever and ever with the people that I was disappointed with, but we won't go on. Yeah. Right. That's weed, bro. That's weed. I wanted to zoom out a bit and ask about the other kinds of breeding that Shah has mentioned, like dog, chicken, rabbit breeding and like, what has he picked up from there? And like what translates to cannabis breeding? It's, man, I think it's all the same. It's all, like all life breeding, it's kind of all the same. Even with people, it's crazy, but it's all very similar. Like you got an idea, like the rabbits, their meat rabbits. So like, let's say one of them has got a big, big legs, the hinds, but the backstrap isn't as big as it could be. So then, you know, I would take a male that has a big backstrap and cross it to the ones with the big hind legs. Or, you know, with dogs, I always go for structure. I want them to look a certain way. Bullies. I don't know. It's just to get to them. Yeah. Some reason I can't get rid of them. Bullies stocky look, right? And it's the same thing. You just got to, you just got to add or take away, you know, you find opposites. I find like, cross and opposites are the best, unless you got something in mind. Like do you want to shrink a dog to hell small? Then you just keep taking the smallest ones and bringing them together. Or, but like, let's say for full, like hybrid vigor, I find crossing opposites do the best. And I also like, myself, I find like people I find the most attractive people, like the opposite, black, white, Chinese, white, right? So, like, it's all pretty much the same. Doesn't matter what you're breeding. Like, it's all kind of the same. Yeah. Yeah. Traits. Traits. Traits. Traits. And the longer I've been into this, that's the one thing I've realized. Like, I paid so much attention to the stories that people would tell about these plants and then try to match up different things to the stories to see if it helped through. And in the end, I realized, fuck, you can just follow traits from the beginning all the way through these lines and see what the real story is. Like, you really can do that. It's possible. You have enough experience. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Like, I mean, let's just, the lemon tree, for example, like the windy guy says there's no sour diesel, but inside of it. But when I was growing them out, there was no sour diesel inside of it. Yeah. You can follow the back. Same thing with dogs. Like, you know, when you start breeding them, and if you get a list of the parents and the family tree pretty much, you can start pinpointing what goes to where and who does what, you know. That's got to be fascinating, actually. Never thought about it that way. That's pretty cool. I fucking love it. It's a really interesting kind of like psychological thing to kind of like deal with all these possibilities and try to map like possible outcomes, tendencies, that kind of thing. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I would say half the time it works out the other half, like I always, I would have these things envisioned in my head like crossing different flavors, it's going to turn out and this and the other, and rarely does it ever, like I would say, you know, 50% of the time it actually does, maybe from less than that. It's all trial and error. At the end of the day, it all comes down to trial and error, you know. You mentioned art before, and I think there is a distinct analogy there because there's only, there's only so much you can control. You know, you can only control like some portion of it, and the rest of it is just, you know, charts, various other parameters. But that whole thing is an art, you know, navigating that. Totally. That's how I've always felt. It's my own world. You know, even with my dogs, like when people walk by them, I want them to be like, oh, that's one of fucking Shaw's dogs, right? Like just by how they look is the ultimate goal. So do you have any thoughts on how different cannabis breeding, let's see, what does it say different, how different the cannabis breeding market is now in 2023 compared to when you started? The seed market, how different it is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyone with a tent can be, make a seed company now, right? Yeah, right. You got Instagram, bro. Yeah. Like I said, I'm out of the loop. I don't really, I'm just kind of focused on my, in my own head and things that I'm doing. I don't really, like I don't know what anybody's really doing anymore. Yeah. It's probably the smartest move, man. The least amount of drama's involved when you keep your head low and out of that and just stick to the art. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I hate the drama behind it. So I just don't even, I'm not in it ever. Yeah. I get the sense that like your life takes you in many other directions and you don't need to spend all your time like in this world. Yeah. You know, I did the Canada community thing for a long time and it's definitely changed a lot the past 10, 15 years. You know, everybody before like, I mean, now everything's corporate pretty much. You know, it's the handshake and your word doesn't mean shit anymore. We're back in the day. It was like, that's what fucking made everything current was the guy's word and their handshake. I don't know. The whole thing has changed. The seed market, you know, the seed market actually, there's a lot more people, but probably hasn't really changed much at all. I mean, it's kind of the same, like, you know, DJ short stuff, let's say for example, you know, a blueberry and then all of a sudden a bunch of different companies fucking rebranded his blueberry, which I'm sure that all that shit still goes on. I was saying that that's never going to change. That's always going to be there. The shenanigans pretty much. Always. Always. It's a black market. You know, so it's like, even in a white market though, it's just like inherently scumbags are attracted to anything they think makes money fast. That's just, I hate the legal market. I hate corporate and how people are like, you know, I trust the black market a hundred times more than I do the legal market. I trust people in the black market more than I do people in the legal market. Absolutely. There's no honor in it. There's no, everything's a dollar sign. Like people just look at you with dollars in their eyes. There's no more community. There's no more, you know, helping each other out or anything like that. But it is what it is. It is what it is. So with that said, is there any other work you'd like to highlight that we didn't touch on, that you're working on now or in the past, you'd like to bring some attention to? I'm working on bringing all like my favorite smoke stuff into FEMS, like my own work. I'm going to be digging through some of these blueberry, these blue nectar seeds that I got and start working that heavily. The potions. I made those this summer, which I'm going to start digging through here soon, see how those turned out, but I'm pretty excited about those. There's some flavors that like I've never come across in cannabis in those, like just mouth watering greatness, fruity, like artificial candy fruit punch, like a fruit punch down later or something like that. That's nice. So I'm excited about that. What else I got going on? A whole bunch of shit. I don't know. I got my hands full. So, slowly but surely. I'm just busy. Yeah, yeah. So where can people find your work if they want to get it? I'm about to actually launch my websites. I'm going to start doing fucking direct sales. I love it. I love hearing it, man. I wish every breeder would do direct sales. I think it's necessary now. It's kind of a necessary thing. Yeah, totally. I'm working on credit card processing. It's actually up and running right now, but it's not working. I'm just waiting for this bank to get my credit card application. So hopefully here in a week or two, that should be up and running. Then there's a list of people on there as well that they can find. There you go. What's a website? Yeah, that's providing. 707seedbank.com. 707seedbank.com. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that'll be exciting here. And then I got a bunch of like bulk seeds that are all great, but they just sit in for one reason or another. Like I got a bunch of like love candy processes on there that like the moms took over the structure, but they all have the love candy flavor to it. Just this Melanie, which they all do great, but I didn't feel like anything was improved. Right? So I never like released those, but I was like, fuck it. Do bulk seeds. Bucket seeds. Absolutely. See how they do. It's a bunch of other random shit. Well, with that, I want to thank you for coming and spending your time with us, dude. It's been a real honor. And again, like I said, like my first, my first experience knowing who you were was talking to other people that have been around a long time. And they'd be all, you know, every single story would be, you know, you know, Shabad, right? Oh, who is this guy? And I learned more and more. And the more I learned, the more I respected you. So I appreciate you taking your time to talk to us. I know a lot of people have been waiting for this forever. So I definitely wanted to thank you. Cheers. All right, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. It's been a blast. Any last words you want to get in? No, thank you guys. Appreciate being on here. It's been a blast. All right, brother. Well, thanks for having, or thanks for coming on and spending your time with us. And hopefully we'll have you again soon. You're up for it. Right on, guys. Want to sit at the table with the syndicate? Check out our Patreon and our link tree or description below. Our merch site is officially live. We have all sorts of shirts, hoodies and goodies to sort you out. And shipping is super fast. And most importantly, the quality is top notch. I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose. So please check it out. Syndicategear.com. We also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily. It's an amazing community of learning away from IG. And it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge. We hope you join our union of breeders and growers. 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