 That is the single understanding that we share our being with everyone and everything must be the foundation of any truly civilized culture, it must be at the origin of a civilized culture. If we want some measure of the indication or some measure of our establishment in our true nature, I'm not sure that looking at a brain scan is the place to look. We should look to the extent to which we are at peace and happy for no reason. That would be a better test, imperturbable peace and causeless joy. Oh, imperturbable peace and causeless joy, I adore that. Its ultimate purpose, I would suggest, is for the reality to shine unabscured through the illusion. So the illusion being the appearance of multiplicity and diversity, which for most of us conceals its reality. I would suggest that the purpose, if we can speak of purpose, is for that the illusion, the appearance of multiplicity and diversity, not to conceal its reality, but to reveal its reality, to express it, to communicate it, to share it, to celebrate it. In other words, for the appearance to become increasingly transparent to its reality. Someone's opinion may contradict yours. Where's my friend Alan? It's all about your perspective. Who are we and what is the nature of this reality? Hey everyone, welcome to Simulation. I'm your host Alan Sakyan. I am super excited and grateful to be featuring Rupert Spira on the show. Hi Rupert. Hi, Alan. Thank you so much for joining us. I have been a big fan of what you've been communicating. And for those that don't know, I'd love to read you Rupert's bio. Rupert Spira is a leading non-dual teacher of the direct path, a synthesis of many global wisdom traditions. His eloquent use of metaphor points people with great efficacy to self-realization. He has authored several books, his YouTube channel is receiving millions of views. He's hosting retreats across the U.S. and Europe. And he's a notable studio potter with work in public and private collections. I'm going to synthesize some of Rupert's key teaching and then we'll start after that. Over thousands of years we've been experientially studying consciousness and metaphysics. Only recently, since the scientific revolution, has a global paradigm of materialism become dominant. Industrialization has connected billions of people to electricity and the internet, plus much more. The revelation of quantum mechanics blew our minds and now the 21st century is knocking. How can science possibly probe the most primal question of our existence? What is consciousness? If you'll join me for a moment in the game. I'd like to ask you to close your eyes and imagine you are in bed, dozing off. You immediately begin dreaming that you're in a kitchen pouring yourself some tea. You're adoring the high quality of this full immersion where you can literally even smell the aroma. You accidentally spill a little and suddenly you snap back to laying in your bed with your eyes open. What you just experienced, we predict, is a microcosm reflecting the macrocosm. In other words, the same way we dream a reality and take a first person perspective is precisely what we are doing with this reality. It's recursive. Reality calls on us to dream for one third of our lives. Quite an obvious hint. One indivisible infinite consciousness in a dream, fully immersed in the high quality, completely forgetting it is a dream. Why we see people running around seeking objects, relationships, substances, anything is because they want to pierce the veil of separation to feel whole. The irony is you already are what you seek. Rupert, how was that? That was pretty good, Alan. I can't hide much to that. Okay, excellent. If that's the case then that makes me happy. I'm always happy, but that makes me especially happy because it's very important to me to take what these diverse leaders like yourself around the world are communicating and be able to try and compress the messages into the most relatable stories, which is basically what you do with your metaphors. And yes, you've said infinite consciousness is the ultimate dreamer whose activity is the universe. Yes, I really like that as well. I want to visualize your lineage quickly. So let's go to your teacher is Francis Lucille. Correct. And did you did you meet him around 1995 ish or when a little bit later 97 97 okay and then for 13 years you studied with him so up until about 2010 or so. Yes, let me just go back a little bit further. And to my late teams, where I first became interested in these matters. And so I started attending a school or a society in London, called a study society and it was essentially a school of classical, the Dante. So for 20 years or so I was in this classical Advaita teaching, practicing mantra meditation and exploring the classical non dual teachings and it was after 20 years of that that I then met Francis. Yes. He introduced me to the direct approach. And he also introduced me to the tantric approach which he had learned through his teacher Jean Klein. Yes, and as you said I then spent 13 years or so with Francis. Before I started. Yes, speaking about these matters myself. Yes, yes. Very few people have the opportunity to be introduced to non duality at the age of 16, which is what you had. That's true I was fortunate my mother and stepfather at the time we're both very interested in these matters they originally went to call it house that the study society in London and so they introduced me to to call it house the Advaita teaching. We also practice the Mevlavi turning. So I was introduced I was very fortunate at an early age during my mid to late teams to come across this understanding to meet a lot of people and spend really most of my time with a lot of people, most of them older than me at that time who were interested in these matters so this really from mid teams up until my mid 30s, this the classical Advaita or non dual approach was really the backdrop to my life and was really the main focus of my life during those years. And then Francis is lineage goes to Jean Klein who he met in 1975. And then, and then, and then Jean Klein was with Pundit G row in 1950. And Pundit G was a professor of Sanskrit in Bangalore and Lynn, he came from a Lindy lineage of Advaita teachers. That's true. Jean Klein was also a yoga teacher. So what was unusual about Jean Klein and I think immensely valuable is is that he, his approach incorporated the body and didn't reject the body and indeed the world as some of the classical Advaita teachings coming out of India did. So this was the, this is what I referred to earlier as the tantric approach which is an approach of inclusion, including the totality of the experience rather than the classical Advaita approach where the body and the world are considered, at least in some expressions of it are considered dangerous realms where we might lose ourselves. So, so that was something very valuable, immensely valuable that Francis introduced me to this this inclusive path. Yes, as opposed to the path of exclusion or the path of discrimination, which, which don't get me wrong I have the highest regard for and spent 20 years on that past myself and it was immensely valuable, but there was something incomplete about it for me because of this lack of inclusion of the body and the world and of course during these early years I was practicing as you said earlier as a potter I was spending my, my days making pots in my studio my and my nights reading Ramana Maharshi, but as a potter I I loved things. I spent my life making things I loved things. I love beauty and so there was no question of me renouncing. Yes. Okay, so so it wasn't until I met Francis that this that that my love of beauty that I was exploring in my studio by day. And my love of truth that I was exploring at home by night really came together and I realized that really the love of beauty and the love of truth are indeed the same. Yes, yes. And this is this is key and we're going to touch on this throughout our conversation is this full embrace of the beauty of what is what we have here, and the full unleashing of of of inner potential artistry gifts into our into our reality. I want to. I want to relate what you just said also to Sri Aurobindo quickly and the mother mirror alfasa and integral yoga in the sense that they also highly highly emphasize the importance of anchoring the divine anchoring the full embodiment in every day. And that way, it basically butterfly effects out into everything that we do with our family our friends our work, our relationships, everything. And that's the process of the the beginnings of a more beautiful and truthful and and awakened to the true nature of reality world. Yes. Yes. Now, Rupert, ultimately, the biggest questions lie in the field of metaphysics the, what is the ultimate nature of reality. Why is there something rather than nothing what is the nature of consciousness, and then kind of science and spirituality basically do their best to understand that. That's ultimately what we're here doing is trying to understand that. And a good way to you've you've said this question before a good way to begin your Atma Vichara self inquiry is by asking the question, what is my source. Where do I come from. What is the, what is the genesis of all of this. What is my real nature. And you had a really good conversation with Sam Harris as well because I think it was a good way to juxtapose the consciousness. Consciousness only with someone that is also interested in spirituality but also has a grounding in deep science and materialism and so he kind of said in return that there's a big temptation to make consciousness the very first principle. And that he then said that that would mean that consciousness then subsumes cosmogony, the big bang, and the reasons for that. But then you counter with the question what is it that knows or is aware of your experience. Yeah, but I think there's this good reason for making consciousness, the first principle, simply because it is the first principle of our experience. So why not start there it's just an undeniable fact of experience that consciousness that all that is or could ever be known is experience. And consciousness is the fundamental and primary. Pre-requisite of all experience. So if we want to build a model of reality, why not start there. It is the primary element of our experience. So isn't that scientific just to start with something that is actually experienced something that is possible in experience rather than starting with an abstract idea, namely, the existence of something called matter outside and independent of consciousness which nobody has ever found or could ever find or will ever find is the content of consciousness. That, to me, is abstract. What to me is really realistic and scientific is to investigate experience, ask us what is the primary element of experience. It is obviously consciousness and to build our model of reality based on that rather than on something that is abstract. So the take is that the most the ground or the most fundamental first principle is experience and then that is consciousness that is awareness, and then that is the nature of reality is that is consciousness is awareness and not that there is a big bang that happens 13.8 billion years ago and after the billions of years of evolution of matter, then the complexity of body activity creates a consciousness that is, is there a point of any synthesis there? That model of, sorry, sorry to interrupt you. That model of reality is based on the evidence of thought and perception. It presumes that what we perceive of the outside world is, is real in the way that it is presented to our senses. And that thought's interpretation of sense perception is correct and extrapolated from this model of reality. We go all the way back to the big bang. But this is, this idea is based on the presumption that perception and its interpretation through thought is correct. Okay. Okay. It might not be. Maybe our senses don't. Yeah. Maybe the combination of perception and conception. That is the finite mind. Maybe they don't give us an accurate model of reality. Maybe reality is filtered through sense perception and appears in accordance with its limitations. In other words, the limitations that we see, that we believe pertain to reality may simply be the limitations of the perceiving apparatus, the finite mind, through which we perceive. We cannot be sure that the limitations that belong to our perceiving apparatus actually pertain to reality itself. How do we know that we are not simply seeing an objectification or a reification of the limitations of our own mind? Yes, yes. After all, when the activities of thought and perception subside as they do in deep sleep, time and space also subside. When thought and perception begins again, when thought begins again, time seems to begin, when perception begins again, space seems to begin. And this happens every single time thought and perception disappear. Objective experience disappears. Every time it arises again, objective experience arises again. Is that a coincidence? Could there be a connection between the two? I would suggest that there is. And these are those hints that we were mentioning earlier, these most simple hints. In science, there is Occam's razor. The most simplest is likely correct. And in this case, it's so, in a sense, simple and it is so, it's so much like a hint. Absolutely. I liked your analogy, your summary at the beginning about the dream. We are given numerous hints as to the nature of reality. And if, as you say, we use Occam's razor, Occam said that of two competing theories, we should always choose the one that makes the least assumptions. So here we have two models of reality. One, that all reality appears within consciousness and is the activity of consciousness. That doesn't make an assumption, it is actually our experience. The second assumption is that what we know of reality is generated by something outside consciousness, namely matter, and indeed gives rise to consciousness. In other words, the second theory suggests that that which is never experienced, namely matter, independent of consciousness, gives rise to that which is alone experienced, namely consciousness. So this makes an enormous assumption, the assumption of the existence of something outside consciousness. Well, if it was necessary to appeal to the existence of something called matter in order to explain our experience, then it would be legitimate under Occam's razor to refer to such a substance. But it is quite possible to make sense of our entire experience of reality, referring only to consciousness in the way that you suggested with the dream analogy and this consciousness only model. Also, not only enables us to make sense of our experience of reality, but enables us to make sense of many phenomena that the matter model is not able to explain. So the consciousness only model has far greater explanatory power than the matter model. If we were to visualize the Ouroboros, the snake's head eating its tail, if we were to envision the wholeness of that, then is then the infinite consciousness is then present at the, it's present everywhere, but it's present at the Godhead and the tail in the sense that the tail portion, this model of science that currently is that many of us agree to and consensus and joy. The benefits of is at the tail point, infinite consciousness is at the tail point, and the big bang is the process of the tail point itself still evolving over time into what we have. So there is still that process and it's going towards the telos of a Godhead of the continuation. Is that approximately how do you resonate with that? I think the model of the big bang is a model that is accurate, reasonably accurate within the parameters of sense perception and thought. It is an interpretation of reality within the limits of perception and conception and it is as such a reasonable interpretation and has, is a useful interpretation. But suggesting that I love science, I have numerous scientists, friends, I have great respect for what they do. It's a valid interpretation. Marvin literally made us what we are really. Yes. So, so it's a, it's a valid relative model of reality that that is useful has numerous useful applications, but it is not an accurate model of reality and that there are no accurate models of reality even the consciousness only model that I am suggesting it is that falls short. There are no accurate models. Interesting. And that's the idea of the elusiveness of the mystery and the beauty of that and to continue openly and blissfully in complete honor of that mystery while simultaneously being interested in the models in making and playing with models that can help us live better lives. Yes. Okay. Okay, let's let's let's go into identity. This is very important, because in in Sanskrit, the word on Kara is very interesting the ego or egoism. And so the idea is that do you identify with the ego do you identify with the the limited finite self in this body and nothing else, or do you identify yourself as universal as transcendent. And there's a huge difference between those. And also, we can call something like an awakening awakenings or enlightenment or this this the process whether it be gradually or, or suddenly to feeling universal or transcendent the process that we all are aiming to pierce that veil. And science does I would like to hear your take on the science does a very interesting job at revealing the unity and the interconnectedness and I and I would love to see more spiritualists embody some of these scientific understandings of unity because I think that would help with the synthesis, but also scientists themselves, like in 1945, if they were more spiritually awake they wouldn't have dropped bombs on Hiroshima Nagasaki. So there's that other side as well scientists can also gain a decent amount of spiritual knowledge. The general idea is this, you cannot and science prune this you cannot you take 20,000 breaths of air every single day you can't live without oxygen. But you can't take one of those 20,000 breaths without summoning the photosynthesis that is happening from phytoplankton and trees around the planet. So, you are deeply interconnected with the oxygen cycle of the planet with photosynthesis. And so, a question is something to ask oneself is, do I, where do I draw a line, or like a boundary when when do I say that I am not the phytoplankton and the trees that have oxygen. All of these, the approximation is 25 sextillion which is 10 with 21 zeros after it oxygen molecules that I am inhaling every breath, every breath, and then those are oxygenating my body. So, where do I draw the line I have I have 1000 we, we all each have 1000 species of bacteria in our gut microbiome. So, do you affiliate yourself with the 1000 species of gut bacteria and how they have 2 million total genes versus you have 20,000 genes. So 100 times more genetic expression happening from those from those gut microbiome. Another example is when do you when do you take if you take the apple or the banana and when you when do you become when does the apple or banana become you when you when you bite it and you begin chewing it when it actually becomes digested and you go through the process of cellular respiration and the adenosine triphosphate powers you and energizes you. So this is these are the things that science literally proves interconnectedness in unity. And I'm curious, what do you think about the scientific angle and how it can help the spiritual angle of non duality flourish. So, you've just demonstrated from a physical point of view that we as individual people or we as a body are intimately connected with the universe in fact not even not not even intimately connected with we are not even apart from the universe as an independently existing entity, either to be connected with it or or not connected with it that there is no clear distinction, even from a physical point of view which is the point of view you've just demonstrated and which as you say, quite rightly science makes very clear it is an arbitrary line, but the the non dual understanding goes much further than this. It doesn't presume to begin with that what we essentially are is a body, whether or not we are intimately connected to the universe. The non dual understanding. First, the non dual approach makes this deep investigation into what we essentially are most of us. Most people believe and feel that what they essentially are is is a body, which has generated consciousness inside it, in particular inside the brain and that the body as such. Sorry that consciousness as such is born or appears when the body appears that it evolves as the body evolves and that it dies or disappear disappears when the, when the body disappears in other words, the consciousness shares the limits and the destiny of the body. This is the standard approach in, in our culture, and even from this approach, what you have just demonstrated the interconnectedness of, of us, this apparent body, this body is absolutely true. The non dual approach as I said goes much deeper. It first of all, investigates what we essentially are. And it trade in this investigation, we trace back our experience of ourselves discarding everything that is not essential to us. Our thoughts are obviously not essential to us they are always appearing and disappearing our feelings likewise sensations perceptions activities relationships. These are all elements of experience that are added to us they remain for a while and then they leave us but what is the us what is the essential irreducible element of our self. And if we, if we undergo this experiment and it's a very simple experiment anybody can do it. We end up with just our simple being our simple self aware being. It's like, it's like undressing at night when we when we go to bed at night we we take off all the layers of clothes. Each layer is of course superfluous to us that clothes are changing all the time. And we get to our naked bodies that that element of our self relatively speaking that cannot be removed that is our naked being. Well, if we do the same thing relative to our experience and we take off so to speak our thoughts, feelings, memories sensations perceptions activities and relationships we end up with pure awareness and this is pure self aware being. So this is the first great discovery. And that's we share is that. I was just going to say that the first step is the discovery I am awareness. This is not yet what is referred to as enlightenment or awakening in the traditions. Then the next step is to investigate the nature of the way to review so we took off all of the layers of identity. And then we got to the most primal, the most first principle which was the awareness. Yes, we took off everything that we were identified with everything that we thought was essential to us thoughts, feelings, etc. And we got back to our, our naked identity our original our original face as they say in the, the Zen tradition. The essential nature of the mind as they say in Buddhism the self as they say in the in the Hindu tradition. So that's the first discovery. I what I essentially am is simply the fact of being aware or awareness itself. The next discovery is is to discover the nature of the awareness that I am to the discovery that it is ever present that it has no limits and that its nature is it is inherently peaceful and unconditionally peaceful and that this is the recognition that is traditionally referred to is enlightenment. So I would say this was the second recognition. Happiness is my nature. Yes. The third great recognition that meditation is not something that we do it's what we are. We are the happiness to bliss, the infinity. Yes, the essential nature of the awareness that I am is peace or happiness. And then the third, we can come back with I'm just the third great recognition which you hinted at that the recognition that the being that we essentially are is shared by not only everyone, but everything. In other words, everyone and everything derive their apparently independent existence from a single infinite and indivisible reality or whole whose nature is well, ultimately it is unnameable because all names have evolved to describe the content of the experience. But if we are going to speak about these matters. Let's give it a provisional name in these circles. We tend to speak of it as consciousness or awareness in religious circles. It is referred to as God's presence or Brahman. But in common parlance. It is referred to as I myself my being that the one infinite and indivisible reality, which doesn't connect us all. In the ultimate analysis, there is no all there there is not a multiplicity and diversity of objects and cells, each with their own independent existence to be connected in the ultimate analysis. We all know independently existing objects or self there is simply a single infinite indivisible whole, which is refracted through the prism of the finite mind and appears as many things and many people. There is a concession to the belief that there are many things and many people we can say that we all share our reality but in the out if we really want to be tried to be more accurate in the ultimate reality that there is no we, there are no separate objects or ourselves either to be united or not to be united there is simply the unity of being that appears as this multiplicity and diversity and the recognition. We are speaking of this in in intellectual terms and analyzing it with the use of our rational mind. The recognition that we share our being is a familiar recognition that millions of people I would suggest that everybody has some taste of and that is the experience of love. Love is the recognition that we share our being. Yeah. Yeah, there's several things there. There's the, you mentioned the the Dow that can be named is not the eternal Dow. There's also a Wahat al-Wujud which is that the unity of all being the unity of all existence. So this is it's also interesting. It's such a perennial wisdom. It's literally across all of these ancient spiritual traditions across the planet. Of course it is because it's what's true, because it's what's real that anyone at any time irrespective of their location on the earth that the time in which they have been built anyone that goes to the nature of reality. By definition goes to the same reality because reality is always the same thing, which is not a thing. So of course, all of these diverse expressions of truth or reality are going to point to the, in their own unique ways are going to point ultimately to the same reality because reality is always real. It is always the same. It doesn't reality is not one thing in India and another thing in America. It's not one thing in 2000 years ago and another thing today reality is. And in 2000 years time reality will be exactly what it is now, although if if human beings still exist then they will express it in very very different ways the language where speaking will seem so archaic to and we cannot imagine what that language will be. Yeah. And we in in the way that science also aims to approach this and validate this is through this unbroken chain of evolution to that source point, and even the way of perceiving it that way, and all of these other ways in terms of trying to pierce the veil of where there is this boundary, and at least the slow process of getting beyond the veil of the ego to the universal to the transcendent to the unity of all existence is there's so many of these different ways up this mountain to that nature of reality but like you say at that pinnacle point at that nature of reality the ultimate point is that infinite consciousness and I think this is a very interesting way to put it is there is this ultimate point so this kind of leads me into the next point which is, I would love to talk to you about this analogy of the symphony. And the reason why I'd like to talk to you about this analogy is because the unity of all being is the symphony infinite consciousness is the symphony. It is the the seemingly or the illusory, which is that it does. It's the way that it appears is is has has it can can lead people off from the from the truth so it's not as it appears that the symphony has a good analogy in the sense that and I want to hear what you think about this. There's the unity of all being but then there's there is this again this illusory this this this self this Alan and Rupert and all of these eight billion seemingly individuals, but part of the beauty of the symphony analogy is that people don't reside in the ultimate which is okay non duality. Excellent. And rather it's both you the unity it's non duality. Excellent. And it's also, I get the opportunity to be an, we get to be artists. Right, we get to, we get to make great studio pottery. Right, we get to make great content we get to engineer we get to design we get to tinker but we do that all from the place of unity, we do that all from the place of non duality is that about right how does that resonate. Yes, ultimately, everything, absolutely everything comes from or is an expression or modulation of consciousness or awareness I use the words synonymously. Some of our thoughts and feelings and our subsequent activities and relationships are mediated through the belief, I am a temporary finite separate self. Even though those thoughts and feelings and the activities and relationships that they generate ultimately come from consciousness. They do not express the, the, what is true of the nature of consciousness or reality why because they are filtered through the belief in separation or express that belief. Ultimately, of course, they still come from the same place that everything comes from. So, I would suggest that true creativity are as any could could be said to be any form be that form in in words in music any art form is a form that comes unmediated directly from our deepest reality or being that is not filtered through the sense of separation, although it requires the agency of the person to articulate that expression. The source of that expression doesn't come from a person that the feeling of being temporary. It is an expression of the reality that lies behind, so to speak, the finite mind or the separate person and which is why the artist calls themselves a channel so often. Yes, and the purpose of this art that is informed by the background of awareness is to bring the truth or the reality that is inherent in it out into the world in order to be shared with humanity. Yes, yes, and that this is the idea that I may be a violinist, but you may be a saxophone player and there's also a drummer, and there's a cellist, and there's the clarinet, and that's the idea of, and they're all and by the way to clarinets are maybe playing different harmonies. So there's that as well. So that's the idea that all eight billion are in that sense are artists in the symphony and that they have their you. They have a unique expression. Yes. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Can I Can I upgrade your metaphor. Yes, because your metaphor is is is it's a beautiful metaphor and it's true I can see what what you're trying to articulate but the first metaphor that you referred to the metaphor of the dream has, I think is more efficient and is clearer. Can I, if you want, you can go back to the symphony, but can I really articulate what you're saying in terms of the of the dream metaphor because I think it's easier to speak about and much easier to understand. So, as you said in your introduction take what happens to us when we have a dream at night. We, where are you, where are you located now and where you where do you live in South Dakota right now. Okay, so say, say you fall asleep in South Dakota, and you imagine that you're walking on the streets of London. You don't view the the dreamed streets of London directly from your mind asleep in South Dakota. Your mind has forgotten that it is dreaming. It has overlooked itself and your own mind has located itself within its own dream. You now seem to be Alan walking on the streets of London. That is the only way your mind can perceive the dream by overlooking itself, locating itself in the dream and viewing what is in fact its own activity from this localized perspective in the dream as the streets of London. Now, everybody else that you encounter on the streets of London, which from your limited perspective seem who seem to be separate people are in fact the activity of your own indivisible mind when you wake up in the morning you realize the the entire dream all the different people and all the different objects where the activity there were no entities there. It was all the activity of my own mind. It only appeared as a multiplicity and diversity of objects and cells from the illusory perspective of the self that I seemed to become in the dream. Now, let's say that you now you meet one of these people you meet an old friend on the streets of London in your dream. You haven't seen this friend for a long time you both go to a cafe you sit down and you have a conversation about something and you both disagree you're talking about American politics. Okay, and you completely disagree with your friend about so you have one point of view, your friend has another completely point of view. So your point of view you each have a series of thoughts, you think that your thoughts are right you think your friends thoughts are incorrect. But, but, so you can have two completely different thoughts opposing thoughts that seem to be completely opposite to each other and are indeed in the dream opposite to each other when you wake up. So the point is that both the true thoughts and the untrue thoughts were generated in your own mind, and that goes for the present sensations the unpleasant sensations that the, the kind thoughts the unkind thoughts the loving feelings the the behavior that is intelligent and loving the behavior that is cruel and unjust it all ultimately is the activity of a single universal mind. Yes, yes. And so, in the analogy. The idea then is that infinite consciousness has within in the symphony has take we we are we that all the artists in all the seemingly individual artists have the we have a filter the filter of the the mind in the dream that then is we that there's there's a process of realizing for the the fight the seemingly finite minds to realize that ah, ah ha the infinite consciousness and and and it's both ah ha the infinite consciousness and it is also that it's not a ha okay and but it's but it's a ha and so it's the realization and it's the creation from that place of realization. So the clear the clarinet player, the violinist, etc. They create their melody harmony from that place of ah ha and yeah. Yeah, exactly. Let's keep both metaphors alive. So let's let's take their essentially two possibilities. Let's go back. I'm going to translate what you've now said into the dream metaphor. You're back on the by the way Rupert I just want to say I think this is so powerful for the synthesis of East and West because the East is very on the non dual and the West is very on the individual and which is very interesting because then it can synthesize them into that. Yeah, so let's go back to the dream analogy you meet your friend. So you are the dreamed character that let's continue to call you Alan and your your friend. He's called, let's say he's called David. So Alan and David are talking in the cafe. So let's say that that Alan has recognized that the essential nature of his mind, the essential nature of himself is shared with everyone and everything. Although he still perceives from the localized perspective of his body, he can only street the streets of London from where he's sitting on his cafe table but he knows that the nature of that which perceives in him is not limited to located in or generated by his body. So he knows that although he seems to be a separate individual, what he essentially is is shared by everyone and everything and his thoughts and feelings and his subsequent activities and relationships are informed by this understanding. David does not realize this Alan's friend David believes he read Alan's friend David reasons with himself. Well, every time I close my eyes. The world disappears. Every time I open my eyes, the world or the streets of London in this case they reappear so it's perfectly obvious that whatever it is that perceives the world must live just behind my eyes in my brain and was obviously generated by my brain. It is limited to my brain and my brain dies my consciousness will die with it. In other words, David believes that he is a temporary finite self that is separate from or be it related to everyone and everything else. And all his thoughts and feelings or almost all his thoughts and feelings and his subsequent activities and relationships are informed by that understanding. So Alan and David have very different kinds of thoughts. They're different instrument players in that sense as well if one player is playing. They're different instruments but what's more important is that the understanding that is expressed through the instrumentality of each of their bodies is a different understanding although ultimately it is all the activity of Alan asleep in South Dakota. Nevertheless, in one case that the in case of Alan in the dream that his thoughts and feelings express the reality. And in David's case that they they do not express that they express separation and as a result of the belief in separation David is able to not only think and feel but act and relate in a ways that are not consistent with truth. Love justice and to extrapolate now from David if you were to take David's point of view in extreme cases. One who's thoughts and feelings and subsequent activities and relationships are informed by this sense of separation is able to commit acts of gross unkindness and injustice. They are still the activities of the same infinite. Yes, mind but filtered through the sense of separation. They are able to behave in a way that is not consistent with reality. Alan's in the dream does everything he says he is an artist and the purpose of his art is to express his understanding and communicated and share it just as that is the case in real life. Okay back to the symphony. It's so this is playing so beautifully so the, the ultimate dreamer of infinite consciousness dreams up the dreams up the illusory universe in the sense that it's it doesn't it's not, it doesn't seem to be exact what it what it is, but Can I hold that thought just for a minute. Yeah, go ahead. I don't like to interact but I want to. I wanted to say this the last time you. Yes, please. Illusory world because I think this is, this is very important. It's something that I misunderstood for years. And I think it's something that causes a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in these matters and trouble and for good reason with this approach in. And that is because this the world is referred to as being an illusion and for many people the idea that something is an illusion is tantamount to saying that it is not real. Yeah. So I want to make a very clear distinction between something that is not real and something that is an illusion. Yes. So that just let's just want to use an example. A square circle try to imagine now a square circle. Or in the Zen tradition the one hand clapping. Okay, but let's stick with it. Try to imagine now a square circle. You can't do it. In other words, it's not even possible to imagine the illusory image of a square circle a square circle is not an illusion. It is utterly non existent. Yeah. However, when we are watching a movie for instance, and we see a landscape in the in the movie that the landscape is obviously an illusion. But it is not non existence. There is something that is there. There is a reality to the illusory landscape and of course when we go up to it, we touch the landscape, we find relatively speaking that its reality is the screen screen. Yes. All of this that the world, as you rightly say from this in this perspective the world is an illusion, not in the sense that it is not real. It is absolutely real. In the sense that it is, the world is an illusion in the sense that it is not what it appears to be. It appears to be a multiplicity and diversity. Yeah. Objects and cells only from the limited and localized perspective of a separate self or a finite mind. Yes, yes, this is going to play beautifully. So that was very important. Go back to your thought about the user world. That was very important, Rupert. Thank you. So the ultimate dreamer of the infinite consciousness. We have this dreams this the this the illusory which is it's not what it appears to be symphony. And then here's here's what where I'm really interested in this symphony. The symphony has the the these these eight billion seemingly again illusory in the sense it artists that are individual that are being filtered through the the the finite mind and that but here's here's something interesting. My understanding of of of of infinite consciousness I think and I think it was at Mananda Krishna men and who said that if you do have to think of it in a sense you can think of it as behind behind behind you the infinite consciousness. And that the the more that you go through the process of self abidance so you go through a mature self inquiry to gain the realization of infinite consciousness, and then you have the process of self abidance. And that means that you have potentially varying degrees of artistry in the sense that there are people that have deep self abidance in infinite consciousness. So when they're playing their violin, they're doing it in as in the acronym STO service to other. So they're playing their violin with service to other because they're there they've they've realized that they can be a clarinet player who in the case of David in your dream. Remember, so this is where we can connect the two analogies. David in the case of the dream hasn't went through the deeper self inquiry and self abidance process. He is under more of the acronym of STS service to self. So he is playing the clarinet but that's why he's also going through the process of seeking objects relationships substances, all these external things to make himself happy and peaceful. So how is that where I think I feel like we're getting closer to an interesting synthesis between in the dream and the symphony. Do you see the spectrum also in terms of the 8 billion. And do you see them evolving as well in the sense that someone that is service to self. Inevitably Rupert we had slavery, and we don't have slavery anymore in much of in much of the world. And so there isn't sort of ethical or consciousness or awareness. Not in a sense that that consciousness or the awareness is evolving, but our ethics and our morals and our philosophies are evolving to be more towards service to other and more towards the unity towards that truth of the infinite consciousness. Yeah. Yes. An ethical code would be a code that laid down a series of behaviors that are expressive of truth or reality that come that that that that that show people how to behave in line with or in a way that is consistent with the fact that everyone shares their being that all ethics can be boiled down to that single fact ethical behavior is behavior that is consistent with the fact that we all share our being. This is why Saint Augustine when asked about these matters ethics and rose he simply said love and do whatever you want. He meant simply realize that you are one with everything and everyone and as long as your behavior is consistent with that understanding, you don't need any moral code that everything you do will be consistent with that understanding. The reason why we need 10 commandments or a moral code is but is for those of us that do not yet feel this we are we are told how to behave in a way that is consistent with this understanding until we realize it for ourselves. So let's go back to David in the symphony. The violinist is you say in your analogy the violinist is one who is is aware of that she shares her. Yes, reality. Yes, with everyone and the clarinet is does not yet realize this he still believes and feels that he is a temporary finance. However, I would suggest that many artists and many musicians when they are in their studios or when they are performing in their in their quartets or their bands or their orchestras that they are at least for the duration of a period of time in which they are performing they are they there are they transcend their limitations as a person and they perform in a way that is expressive of truth or reality when they then go back to their everyday lives. They are not certain to believing and feeling that they are a separate self or an ego, but many people. In fact, this is why, for some, for many artists them that their artists are kind of it's, it's, it's not a compulsion it's something that they, they can't not do that they know that when they are in their studios or performing in their orchestras or band they can touch with something that they know is so utterly alive and true. And in that moment, they do transcend the sense of separation they are expressing the truth reality love. So it's not it's not black and white it's not either you've recognized yourself, your true nature and everything you do expresses that, or you haven't yet. Yes, beautiful. Yes. And he's not only true. Sorry, it's not only true of artists. It's true of everybody. Yes, exactly. In that sense all 8 billion are artists in that sense. Everybody, all 8 billion of us know the experience of love. In other words, everybody has tasted the fact that we share our being and everybody has had the experience of behaving and relating in a way that is consistent with that understanding. For most people, it's only that behavior is only directed towards a few people in their circle, their friends or their family. Unless they've still understood and felt what it is to share our being, even if that is not their consistent experience. And Rupert, would you say that we are over the last several thousand years, if not tens of thousands of years, that we have been going more and more towards the general, the full embodied realization more of that? I hope so. Because that's the general idea of what an evolution, when people say that word, that's, yeah. I tend to be optimistic. Everything ultimately is destined to return to its source. There is nowhere else for it to return to. So ultimately everything is destined for its source. One could argue that there is more violence, more disharmony, more conflict in the world today. I would suggest that the old structures in our society were egoic structures. They were structures in our corporations, in our governments, in our institutions, structures that were based upon an egoic sense of self. More tyrannical. A separate self and that expresses itself in extremes in tyrannical dictatorships, but also in much smaller ways in families, in companies, in communities. And the sense of separation can express itself. So I would suggest that the chaos we see in our society today and the violence, the conflict, I hope. I believe that it is the evidence that these structures are falling apart because they're not based in truth or reality. And although we're witnessing a time of great upheaval, I hope that it, and I believe that it makes for the possibility that a new order will emerge, one that is based on our shared being. This must be the single understanding that we share our being with everyone and everything must be the foundation of any truly civilized culture. It must be the origin of a civilized culture. I love that. I love that that first principle of recognition of shared being. It's the principle that it should be the fundamental principle of all, but not only of all of us, but because we're speaking of the world of all politicians. Yes, exactly. All politics should be in the service of one idea or one understanding alone, namely, everyone and everything. When I say everything, I include everything because I'm not just talking about animals and people. I'm talking about the earth. Yes. Our environment, that everyone and everything share their being. That that should be the single guiding principle of all people in general, but politicians in general. But their policies, their individual policies then in relation to different different situations and event would would be the means by which this understanding was then expressed and shared and communicated and implicated in society. I've been very obsessed about taking that recognition of shared being and having it deeply embodied at Davos at the World Economic Forum in the global 500 top companies all the presidents and congresses of the world in Hollywood and Silicon Valley. All of these places, especially in people that have so much guiding influence are the most important, especially to have that recognition of shared being be that first principle. And when it becomes the first principle Rupert it also enables the recognition that my clarinet or violin or saxophone or drums or bass or whatever I'm doing. It must be for the, the, the service to other it must be for augmenting the social fabric for enabling the basic needs on like a Maslow's hierarchy to be met so that if air, water, food, energy, education, healthcare, etc are met. It enables people to have a deeper self abidance. It enables the inquiry into the true nature of reality, plus it enables them to become an artist, an artist in symphony as well. And so that's sort of the general process that at least I see happening. But one who is one who feel not only understands but feel that they share their being with everyone and everything. They play in tune in the symphony and one who does not feel this plays out of tune. Trying to hoard materialistic possessions and that type of stuff that that versus playing in tune. I like that. I like that as well this so so excellent. Wow, yeah, time, time has flown. Do do you believe in our ability to leverage science in the sense that there's all of these new technological methodologies that exist including fMRI, EEG, EKG, the samples of the microbiome. Do you believe in our ability to have a biometric correlate to a non dual state of awareness. What would a biometric correlate look like. Yeah, yeah, so it would be something like a, like, for example with brain it would be like a connectome harmonic. So that would be like the total of all of your chemo electro connectomics are in a harmonic state of resonance. Maybe with your heart, it would be that you have a higher heart rate variability versus a lower heart rate variability for something that's more stressed. In that sense. So there are these biomarkers for cortisol or there are these biomarkers for for for more blissful or meditative or peaceful states of consciousness states of awareness. So do you see science potentially helping with a with a biometric correlate of a more awakened aware enlightened states of being that may discover correlates that indicate the ones state of mind, but whether they will help, whether those discoveries will actually help in the recognition we're speaking of. I am. I'm not so sure it's if you were so optimistic earlier. I am very optimistic. I just I just don't feel that that these correlates that scientists may or may not find in the brain are helpful, either as indicators or more importantly as means to the recognition of our true nature if we look. If we want some measure of the indication of some measure of our establishment in our true nature. I'm not sure that looking at a brain scan is the place to look. We should look to the extent to which we are at peace and happy for no reason. That would be a better test, imperturbable peace and causeless joy. Oh, imperturbable peace and causeless joy. I adore that. Yeah, because you know this to recognize the nature of ourself is is so simple and it's been mystified and complexified and and obscured. Not by the founders of the great religious and spiritual traditions but by their followers who did not understand or only partially understood their teaching or all that is necessary to go back to them, beginning about conversation is this metaphorical addressing this, this removing it's not even necessary to remove our thoughts feelings activities and relationships all it is in other words it's not necessary to change our experience or manipulate it in any way all that is necessary, is to see that element of which cannot be taken away from us to see that which is essential to us, not our thoughts not our feelings sensations perceptions activities relationships all of these appear and disappear on the screen of awareness but the awareness is the, the essential and irreducible nature of ourself and this is something that is simple. Everyone can recognize it simply by virtue of the fact that everyone is aware. And everyone can simply, it's not as I said it's not necessary to reject the content of experience, all that is necessary is to relax the focus of our attention from its content. And just, just relax back into the fact of being aware which is that the ever present and inherently peaceful background of all experience. That's all. And to begin with that this background of awareness it seems to be a place that we visit from time to time, and then we get lost in the content of experience again. In time, it ceases that the back and forth between the background of awareness and the foreground of experience ceases and we begin to be what Christian men are called, we begin to be established established in our true nature we cease just to visit from time to time, the peace of the background we live there, we abide there, we still face experience we still have to deal with our, our everyday experience, but everything we think and feel and in time our subsequent activities and relationships are informed by and are an expression of this background of, of peace and unconditional joy. I love that always a work in progress in the sense of always becoming more and more established. And I think that's that's that's very important in in making it easier for people to feel like it's not a far off thing. Yeah, yeah. Not only is it not a far off thing our being is is closer to us than our most intimate and precious feelings it is not even close to us it is us. Yeah. And getting getting our entire world on that closer closer closer and hopefully we have been over time getting time getting closer and closer to that and then and then being your unique artistry from that is, I think the the general essence of where we got in in much of this. Yes, yes. All of us who who are interested in these matters, you and I and all your viewers and yours express our understanding such as it is in a way that is unique to us. I do it through speaking and writing I used to do it in my, my studio but there are so many ways. Eight million. Eight million ways some of them require a lot of form a lot of content they involve speaking or writing or or your lovely drawings on the wall behind. Other people may not express this understanding in form that they may just abide rest. And they, they are the ones that that communicate that this understandings silently. Yes, and I'm sure that we all know. Yes, and what it's like to to to be in the company of someone who is at ease. Who is at peace. Yes. Who does not feel that they lack anything irrespective of how wealthy or impoverished they may be how powerful it is to be in the company of such a person and how when we go home, we feel somehow blessed just by being with them. We may have chatted about the weather or politics or dinner or we may not have spoken directly about these matters, as you and I have done and they may. Such people may never speak directly about these matters but they communicate this understanding silently and that their communication, their contribution to humanity is just as valuable. As those of us that. Yes, express this understanding in more formalized ways like, like you and I. And as as we say in music what makes music music is the silence between the notes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Rupert one more question is that is that okay. Okay. We're talking about this, this so this, this trajectory of hopefully becoming more and more self abiding in that and channeling that as artistry through us. What is the, what is the T los what is the purpose for the ultimate dreamer, infinite consciousness to make the dream is what is the purpose of it and in terms of trajectory to heading towards some sort of a Godhead. What, what, what happens, do we or a boros another dream is that yeah. And what's the relationship with artificial intelligence and like virtual realities, and simulation theory with that Godhead and that continued or Boris please Rupert. My mother, who first introduced me to these matters in my, in my mid teens reminds me quite often that when I was about seven years old, I said to her, I think that the entire universe is God's dream. And that our part in the dream is to make God's dream as nice a dream as possible. Well that was an innocent naive seven year olds way of expressing what we are speaking of now and I have to confess that I have not evolved very much over the intervening 50 or so years. I still basically feel the same thing, although I express it in somewhat more sophisticated language, but so I still think that the universe is God's dream. I don't often use that language, although I am really a closet. Sufi, I tend not to use that language, because the word God has is so intolerable to so many people for, for obvious reasons it has been abused so much so I tend not to use that language I consider this to be the activity of an infinite consciousness as to the purpose of it to answer question. I would no longer say that I think its purpose is to be as nice as possible a dream for God to have so that God doesn't have to have nightmares or it's ultimate purpose I would suggest is that the is for the reality to shine unabscured through the illusion. So the illusion being the appearance of multiplicity and diversity, which for most of us conceals its reality. I would suggest that the purpose, if we can speak of purpose is for that the illusion the appearance of multiplicity and diversity not to conceal its reality but to reveal its reality to express it to communicate it to share it to celebrate it. In other words, for for the appearance to become increasingly transparent to its reality. And I believe beautiful and I believe Francis Lucille says it's a eternal fourth of July fireworks. Yes, he said that much I think yes. And I like, I like that as as as the purpose for the reality to shine through the illusion. Yeah, I like, I like that and it does seem like it's there's like a there's a titration in a sense, if we can use that more and more towards that, towards that remembrance and that's Rupert. There's a lot about artificial intelligence and virtual realities and simulations that I think have a lot to do with the Godhead. That's for another conversation. Let's not get started on that now. Okay. All right. All right. Rupert. Wow. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Well, thank you, Alan, for inviting me. It's been a pleasure speaking with you. I have managed during our conversation not to get distracted by the fascinating drawings on the wall behind you. Fortunately, they're just out of focus so I can't read them, but they look, they look marvelous. And it's a pleasure to to to meet you in this way and to have had this conversation and I hope our paths will will cross again either virtually if not in person person. Yeah, likewise, likewise Rupert. Hopefully, all of all of this is the your contributions are present in all of this all of these brilliant artists that I'm kind of sponging up and then I'm and then I'm I'm I'm ringing out the sponge into this art to share with. Well, I think talking about different characters Alan playing different instruments expressing the same understanding your background and my background in this conversation, they express our two different characters very nicely. Both, both singing the same song but in very different ways. Yeah. And, and Rupert, if you guys have all of the links are in the bio to Rupert's work. Check out Rupert's YouTube channel. It's just exploding he has a bunch of really great videos on it unpacking the essence of non duality so please do check that out. There's also Rupert spyro.com. The links in the bio below has all of his United States and Europe retreats that he hosts. Yes. Although, sorry to interrupt. Yes, yes, they're all on on hold on moment. It's all for the moment. Yeah, for the moment. Yeah. Yeah. One day I hope it's coming live again. Yes. And I hope I know you do retreats in the northern California region where we host our studio show. And so, hopefully to meet in person then and, and also our show. And given the studio's interest in Los Angeles as well. It's very interesting to potentially have you host you down there for a retreat in that area and help catalyze more people to attend so because that's another market. So, thank you so much to Silicon Valley and Hollywood. California is the fifth largest economy in the world. And so to have as a state by itself so to have you also bring your skills, your, your stories you're sharing to Los Angeles to Hollywood would also be very important Rupert. Wow, so grateful. So grateful. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to take a keep well. And until we meet again. Yes until we meet again thank you everyone for tuning in we greatly appreciate it we would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode. I'd love to hear from you get chatting in the comments about all the different things that Rupert was sharing about what we were going back and forth on we would love to hear your thoughts again check out all the links in the bio below to Rupert's work do check all that out. Go follow him across platforms share his work if it resonates attendance or treats. Also, support the artist the entrepreneurs the spiritual leader support the people in your communities around the world that are making impact that you believe in support them help them flourish, and also unleash your own gifts as well. And build that more beautiful future our hearts know as possible we love you very much thank you for tuning in. We will see you soon. Bye everyone. Peace namaste. Bye. I think I think you actually provided me with a very interesting synthesis of the dream with the symphony. In a sense, it's nice. I like the way that we went back and forth between the two and because each one has a certain. One is good for illustrating a slightly different aspect of the understanding and I thought it was nice. It was like, weaving a blanket out of threads. It worked very nicely. It was weaving a blanket out of threads. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah, I love it and now we get to lay in it and yeah and now we get now we get to lay in it.