 Okay, great. So, welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public hearing and public meeting on Wednesday, January 12 2022. My name is Jane Wald and as chair of the Historical Commission I'm calling this meeting to order at 634pm pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 this meeting is being conducted by remote means. As no in person attendance is permitted every effort is being made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. In addition this meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as usual. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so by opening the town's homepage on an internet browser. Navigate to the town count calendar at the bottom of that page and click on the Historical Commission meeting link zoom and telephone connections and the meeting agenda can be found there. In addition, we'll take attendance of Commission members by roll call. So as board members here your name called please just answer affirmatively or raise your hand. Patricia all present Catherine Davis. Robin for them. Not here at the moment. Becky Lockwood. Present. John Lockwood. Heady startup. Yeah. And Jane walled I'm here too. Okay, so I'm just mentioned that for members of the public opportunity for public comment will be provided during the public hearing and during the general public comment period, and at other appropriate times during the meeting. Please be aware that commission members will make note of comments, but will not necessarily respond to them during public comment periods. Again for members of the public at the appropriate time please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited. If you have joined the zoom meeting using a telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your phone. When called on please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes and or at the discretion of the commission chair. Now we can just move on to the public hearing with this preamble in accordance with the provisions of Massachusetts General Laws chapter 40 a and article 13 town of Amherst bylaws that zoning bylaw demolition delay. This public hearing has been duly advertised and noticed thereof has been posted and mailed to parties at interest. The historical commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application request. And that is for 47 Olympia Drive parcel eight D dash 18 owned by 47 Olympia Drive LLC. The request is for complete demolition of a circa 1971 brick building, most recently used as the Chi Omega sorority at the University of Massachusetts. This application and other historical information on the affected property is available at the document center on the town website. The public hearing is now open. And if you'll bear with me for a few moments, I'll explain goals and procedures for this public hearing. So section 13 of the town zoning bylaw governing demolition delay for structures of historical or architectural significance states that are that as a matter of public policy, the economic cultural and aesthetic town standing of the town of Amherst can be maintained and enhanced by due regard for the historical and architectural heritage of the town. By striving to discourage the destruction of such cultural assets, the protection enhancement perpetuation and use of structures of historical and architectural significance located within the town of Amherst. That it is a public necessity and that it is required in the interest of the prosperity, civic pride and general welfare of the people. So under Massachusetts general laws in the town of Amherst zoning bylaw, the Historical Commission is responsible for enacting the purposes and procedures of this policy. So during this hearing will follow the it will will use this following procedure. First we'll take comments from the applicant. If they wish to add to information provided in the permit application and supporting materials. Then we'll ask town staff for any additional information that may have come to light since providing the supporting information. Then we'll take questions from commission members. The applicant will be asked to respond to questions, and then there will be a time for public comment. Then we'll take additional comments and questions from commission members and from town staff. And then when the public hearing is closed will begin deliberation without further comment from the public or the applicant, unless commissioners ask for specific information. So as we get to that point in the proceedings, I'll explain that the commission's deliberations may result usually result in one of three outcomes, but I will save that for for a little bit later on. So we have information about 47 Olympia Drive and if the applicant is here and wishes to offer any comments on the application or any additional information will welcome welcome those comments. Good evening. Sorry just getting plugged in here. Okay, hi Kyle. Hi, how is everybody. Good, good. So presenting tonight for 47 Olympia, which is the former Kyle mega sorority next to our 57 Olympia place property. We purchased it in December. And I don't know if I have much to add we are. What we presented is that, you know, it's a part of the former fraternity in sorority park development. It was built in the late 60s early 70s in this case 1971. And it's a house that that used to support 40 sisters of Kyle mega, and we look to demolish it and to redevelop the site similar to 47 Olympia project next door. Okay, thank you. Thank you. So commission members based on your review of the application and information supplementary information do you have any questions for for the applicant. Catherine is that is that that's a question. Okay, thank you. I mean, I think I understand the goal of the project but I, I read that the building was in poor condition is that is that the case I wanted wondered a little bit more about that. Kyle you're muted. Sorry, they replaced the windows recently. They did maintain the property quite well. I think the reality is it's just, it's a bit dated. It's 50 years old. Thank you. My question would be similar to Catherine's. I think I'm looking a little bit more Kyle in your demolition application for some specifics about the in quotes poor condition of the property it was only vacated. You know, in 2020 is well maintained. I'm pretty familiar with that property. I'm just looking a little bit for some more specifics about what exactly is in poor condition in the building. I think it's just perhaps I could have used a different word but I think it's a in our in our minds it's a property that has outlived its useful life and there's another opportunity that will bring more housing and or tax revenue to the town that is better suited to that site. So I think it's it's a reuse of that property at that at this point is going to require some capital investment. So I think that it's probably not poor but it would require some investment to maintain and I think it's a better investment to use that property to to provide the housing that we need. So Kyle basically archipelago bought it in order to take it down and put up something bigger. How many units are going to replace this building what's the goal here. I think it'll be very similar to Olympia place next door. I mean all the sites when they're originally plated there's 12 of them are essentially identical in size of an acre. So I think that the I think it's a wonderful location to provide to build some housing that we that we need here so I think it would be almost identical to Olympia it'll look different but from a capacity standpoint it'll be the same 40 young women live there how many people will be able to live in the new thing on the same space. There are 230 people in the building next door. It'll be the same size. It'll be very, very close. And how many stories are there. I think it'll be a very similar to next door, which is five stories. I don't know. So you said four stories. Olympia is five. Five. Okay. So similar to the downtown buildings. In height. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Any questions for the applicant. All right. And I'm sorry, man. I didn't recognize you earlier if you had a comment. No, thanks, Jane. I guess what I can contribute is, you know, having done some historical research on the property. It's not, you know, it's not listed in any inventory or, you know, repository as a historic site by the state or by the town. It's not, hasn't been recognized in that way. It's, you know, exactly 50 years old. So it's just meets the standards of our bylaw article 13, which is, you know, a building 50 years or older show undergo this type of review. The, I looked a little bit at the history of the high Omega sorority. They, they first developed. I think in the early 1900s at a house on Lincoln Ave. And in the 70s, they moved to this site on Olympia place. And then they've actually since relocated to the original house on Lincoln Avenue, where they first started. And they. On their website, they're talking about how there's a kind of a national trend to sound kind of downsizing some fraternities and sororities to a smaller scale. So I think that that allowed them to meet that objective and to kind of park and back to their history and their roots in a way. So, like I said, I mean the, sorry, this whole area was developed on Olympia place as a fraternity and sorority park and was never truly realized in that way. So there are a few sites developed, but as of now, you know, the infrastructure is there for, for development. And numerous parcels exist. So, I think, I think that's about it for what I can contribute. Okay, thank you. And Jane, if I have a little more history on that just in 1920, they built kind of make a built the building. They had a fire in Lincoln Ave, 315 Lincoln Ave. And then they had a fire in the late 60s. At a time when there was some expansion. And at a time when they were trying to get people to sign up for the fraternity sorority park up on Olympia Drive. And so because they had the fire and they were having to invest in their house anyway, they decided to build. So they moved up there that house supports 40. They haven't had 40 in a while. They definitely weren't going to have 40. And there is a move to get smaller, to do more out of the house and to, and their old house actually was, was for sale at the exact moment. So that's really quite a coincidence. Thank you. All right, then we will, let's, at this time, just to open the floor to public comment. And if there is anyone who would like to make a comment on this application for a demolition permit, please use the raise hand function. Or if you're on the phone. Star nine. And seeing no. Request for comment. Are there any other comments or questions from members of the historical commission or from. Not to Kyle. Only with in our discussion, I'll have some. Do you want me to move to close the public meeting? Exactly. Yes. I knew it. I move we close the public meeting. I would actually, if I would, I would, we got into this issue last time with the local historic district that keeping, I think, we're moving wanting to move towards keeping the public hearing open until a vote is actually passed. Because we got into an issue last time with the local historic district where they close the public hearing and then subsequently required more information. And so it costs some issues with. How the public hearing was advertised and all that. So I think we can maybe close the question and answer period and move towards deliberation. But technically, I think the public hearing is still. I whisper on my motion. Okay. Hey, there's a. Agreed. Then, then we can move on to. The standards for designation as a significant structure. And so for those. So we will. We'll discuss these standards. They. They're basically for their. Stated in four groupings in the town. Demolition by law. So the first is whether. The property is listed on or is within an area listed on the national register of historic places. Or is the subject of a pending application for listing on said register. And then there are a set of criteria related to historical importance. And then there's another set of criteria related to architectural importance. And then finally criteria that address. It's. The significance of the structure and its geographic context. So. Can you put this up on the screen? That would be great for everybody else. Thank you. Members of the commission. Move through a discussion of these criteria. At the end. The, the result of the deliberation is going to. Most likely be one of three. Outcomes. One is a finding that the building is not a significant structure according to by law criteria. In which case the demolition permit is approved. The third is a finding that the building is a significant structure according to by law criteria. But that the proposed demolition would not be detrimental. To the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. In that case, the demolition permit is also approved. The third is a finding that the building is a significant structure according to by law criteria. And that the proposed demolition would be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. In that case. The commission has the option to. Not grant the demolition permit for a period of up to 12 months while other. Solutions to the preservation of that. That's the owner. But we will now we'll just now go into the criteria. The first has to do with whether it is. On the national register or is the subject of a pending application. For listing on the national register and then I think you've already told us that that is not the case that does not apply to the structure. So. And then. There is the cluster of criteria related to historic importance. And I'm just going to run through these quickly. And if any. Commission member thinks that. They would like to, to make a case for. These criteria, any, any one of these criteria applying to the structure, please. Please sing out when I get to the end. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And these criteria are. That the structure has character, interest or value as part of the development, heritage or cultural characteristics of the town, Commonwealth or nation. Or that it is the site of an historic event. Or that it is identified with a person or group of persons who had some influence on society. So. So let me ask commission members if. If anyone has would like to. Address any one of these criteria regarding historic importance. Well, I think that it probably comes under architectural importance, but. There is. If there are other examples of this style of architecture for. So multi unit housing and whether there is. Whether there is a style that went with the sort of. Greek. Enclave there in that part of campus or other parts. Of the city. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what houses being built in the late 60s and early 70s that are representative of. You know, Greek housing for universities at that time that would. Stand as part of, I don't know. Amherst history. Cultural history, architectural history or anything. I don't know anything about this. I'm hoping Ben or. Maybe heady can answer that. As far as I know, I'm working with the. Scenar and onions here with Greek housing and. While the model in other parts of the country is to conform with some kind of Neoclassical. Building. Clearly that is not the case with Maine. I did reach out to the last. House director. Before they sold the building. building is interesting, you know, in terms of it's much more contemporary woodsy kind of field, not to use any kind of really highfaluting architectural language but it's, it's, it's a very nice example of a sort of modernist contemporary style multi unit building I think it was actually intended for more than 40 people. And it's, it's in good shape, you know, I think that's the other thing that that is slightly concerning me about the, the permit. So, I could say a lot more, but I think for our purposes, you know, it's, it's an it's an interesting take on the idea of housing a lot of people in a, in a culturally interesting and appropriate way for its time. There's the other Chi Omega chapter houses around the country. As far as I know there aren't any others in Massachusetts. You know, whether it has a kind of unique quality architecturally is, is probably something that would need further investigation to find out who the architect of the building was, what other kinds of work they had done. But, you know, clearly it represents a commitment on behalf of the university to create a Greek life community, which is interesting, even though it didn't come to pass. So, I think, I think I'll leave it at that. So, unique, could it be typical, you know, the opposite, could it be, are there other buildings like it that were built at UMass for Greek houses. I don't know the answer to that, Jen. Ben, do you know, there's one on either side. Okay. Yeah, there were a few developed in that enclave, if you will. And I think along North Pleasant Street I don't know between the university and downtown I don't know if those structures are were repurposed for fraternities or whether they're were built for that purpose but they seem to be large, large multi-family structures. And this style is what's appearing on either side, same type of contemporary brick look. I haven't been up there. We tore one down to build Olympia Place. Okay. And the other ones currently mostly underutilized from UMass, it used to be their admissions building. Okay, but it was originally planned to be another Greek house at the time. It was built as a Greek house. And then when it was sold I believe the university or the Commonwealth took ownership of it. I don't know if it was a sale or what, but then it became the admissions building for many years. Okay. So I'm going to. I'm thinking that the discussion so far has perhaps less to do with historical importance than it does to with architectural importance. Perhaps, yeah. Okay. And then I'm going to move on to architectural importance and the criteria under that heading is that the structure portrays the environment of a group of people in an era of history characterized by distinctive architectural style. Or that it embodies those distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type. It is the work of an architect master builder or craftsman whose individual work has influenced the development of the town. Or that it contains elements of architectural design, detail materials or craftsmanship, which represents a significant innovation. And I see, would you Jan or Hedy or anyone else would you like to address those criteria. Alternately I could ask Kyle, or perhaps, Ben if you know, if you know the architect or any context for the architects work. I doubt it's going to come down to the architect it seems to me that it's more in the first one. I'm just, that's why I was asking about other structures that were similar and whether you know this period at UMass and certainly other places in the country. A classic kind of version of a new style for sororities and fraternities I realized neoclassical was popular but I think it was waning by this time I saw them where I taught and you know places nearby in the Midwest. I mean that's the only thing I'm wondering is whether this was, you know, a distinctive architectural style for that era for Greek houses and I realized there was one that you've already taken down Kyle but it's probably because you did it before it came under the 50 year part so you just, you were unlucky that you bought this right when it hit the number of years that it goes under our review. I also think it's just a different understanding of what we think is, I mean, I guess I'm a little surprised that we're talking about a 1971 fraternity sorority park that some people have never seen before as being something significant. So it is those are the pictures that I took every, you know, image around the building. It's a, you know, it's a building with with a number of bedrooms and two wings and a center hall for events. That's it. It's built in 1971, and with some new windows in it that went in, you know, a couple years ago. And that's the building next door that was UMass admissions for many years so both cement block both built in the early 70s both with vermiculite insulation in the walls and asbestos and things all over the building, because that's what people were building with in the early 70s. So, those are the, that's the building we're talking about right there. I understand, I see these. I think it's distinctive for an era. I agree with you and I think we run the risk of, we don't want to evaluate this building in terms of what we think should be happening now that's not our job as commissioners. We might have views about housing in Amherst or the fact that this didn't come to fruition as the fraternity and sorority part that was planned for it. I think it's still on its own merits an interesting building. And, you know, my feeling is that it does portray something to do with with that first category in architecture importance it doesn't it doesn't really sing to me in terms of other categories. I think, not to jump the gun but I think the geographic importance is is also somewhat pertinent here. I was trying to, you know, we don't really know very much about the architectural intent, if you like, of this building, I think that that's something that could be could be could be researched. I'm going to just pre state a couple of things one is that the job of the Historical Commission at this point is not to take into consideration any plans for future development. It is only to consider the historic significance architectural significance or geographic importance of this particular structure, or the context of this particular structure. I think that we, we had, some of us may have questions about the the architectural style or history or context of this structure, but it appears we, we may or may not have answers. So I'm going to ask for a roll call vote of Historical Commission members, specifically on the criteria under architectural significance and then we can move on to architectural importance then we can move on to geographic importance. So, and, and maybe just one other kind of a side is that the Historical Commission, you know, it's, its role is to think about history and historical significance as kind of as it develops. We don't concern ourselves only with things that are 200 years old. We want to make sure that we take into account the development of our community, and what makes what kind of distinctive cultural markers there are within the community so that's one reason that we are that we're talking about in 1971 building. So, so perhaps let's now just take a roll call vote on architectural importance. So I will do historical, you know, right we didn't vote on historical. We had no, there were no, there were no comments about historical week. No, I started with, with it talking about it there in terms of cultural and social part of the community but. Okay, then we'll start with architecture. Alright, then, then, okay so then we'll go back through them let's have a discussion then first of geographic importance and then we'll go back to historical architectural and then geographic. Okay, so we cover all the bases. Okay, so geographic importance. It relates to the two criteria whether the site is part of or related to a square park or other distinctive area, or whether that's the structure as to its unique location or its physical characteristics represents an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood, a village center or the community as a whole. Open to comments about this. Well, I think the property does. It relates to 134120 as the, the site of somewhat developed park intended for Greek life, the Greek life community of UMass, and at one point there were three buildings and intended I think that I think the idea was that there would be 12 on Olympia Drive and my mayor drive. So that's a variety of reasons, but that's what I would argue is geographically important about this property. All right, so then we'll go let's. We know that the, the top criterion about national registered listing doesn't apply so then we'll move on to historical importance and is it agreeable that we take all the criteria together under. Under that heading. Okay, then. Okay, so then would please signify if you agree that criteria under historical importance pertain to this structure, and we'll begin with Trisha off. Yeah, I'm listening to all of the discussion Jane, and I think so much of what we're saying has to do with the context of, of the idea of developing a Greek park and what the buildings were used for. In my opinion, I'm not sure that that empirically, it satisfies any, any of this criteria. I think it's more the context of, of what was intended and what the, the Olympia Drive represents. So, I'm not quite sure how to vote because I don't think it specifically meets any one of these criteria. I think it's, it's, it's the whole of it. So help me. So, is that a. Is that an extension. That's an extension. Okay. Catherine Davis. I'm going to say no to this one, but yes to others I'll say no here. Okay. Let's see Robin is not with us. Becky buckwood. I will say no. Janet Markworth. Oh man. Well, I mean I feel the same way Pat, but I guess. It's not going to make any different in the end, but I guess I'd like to say yes just for the last one because I want to make sure that we go on record. Not only fighting to keep very elaborate buildings that were built with lots of money in very elaborate forms. And look to things of, you know, lower level production so for instance we've talked about simple farmhouses and, you know, 1960s tract houses and stuff is all being characteristic of an arrow or of a style or of a cultural and social condition of the town. And so I guess just for that reason I'd like to say yes to 4103 for this just for the record. Okay, thank you. Heady start up. I'm going to say yes to 4103 as well. And I'm going to say no. So that is to yes, three no one abstention. So that that does not. I'm going to select the outcome of the permit application. Okay, so historic architectural importance. And we'll start again with Patricia. Again, I have, I have a dilemma as to the criteria under architectural importance to what extent the building if we look at it without the context meets any of this criteria. And so I guess I should probably stay in again. And Catherine Davis. I'm going to say yes here. Okay. Thank you. I guess I, I'm, I'm on the fence here, because I'm not certain that we know whether the architectural style is distinctive or not. And I don't know. Is that up to us to find out and research. And, and if it is, then I think we should wait, but if it isn't, we don't know so then I would say no so I'm sort of in the middle to here. So I guess my, I guess my question is, is it up to us to find out about the architectural importance. Ben, I wonder if you could advise us on this. So, I mean, yeah, I guess that you all need to make a decision. So one, whether the building is significant and two, whether it's, you know, should rise this the occasion of placing a demo, a delay on the demolition so obviously you need information to make those decisions. And, you know, and I think it, I don't know if there's a research paper we can find that talks about the, you know, distinct styles of Greek houses that would be really helpful to kind of put this in a context but outside of outside of that I don't know kind of how that would be determined if there if this is how distinctive this is. It doesn't have to be about just Greek houses, it's an architectural type from that era. It's a very distinct type. It doesn't have to be, you know, characterized by some sort of innovative architectural features that some architects, you know, were known for, or anything like that it is a very typical, and that's what architectural type is structure of the era, even its cheap materials are part of that. You know, so Okay. Any other examples of it we have in town. That's, you know, so to kind of move our process along Becky how would how what how would I characterize your I think I'm going to have to abstain on this one. All right, then. Jan. Yes. Okay. And Hedy. I'm going to abstain. Oh, gee. You should start voting first, you don't have to break it. All right, so this is perhaps out of order but what if we, what if we give us one month to find any qualifying information. We had a month, we sent us this a month ago. Well we did apparently we did not find the answers to questions we're asking tonight. So, and you're right, however we vote it doesn't necessarily mean that they automatically get a delay. Well that's true. That's true. I mean, I'm going to, I'm going to vote no because we haven't, you know, we haven't necessarily done the diligence we should have to find the answers. So, that's my that's how I'm going to come out here except now that now guess who guess what the top vote is here it's abstentions so So let's move on to let's move on and then we'll go to the end and figure out, you know, whether this is significant and whether what what we want to do in the end. I don't know where my race and so I was going to add another option is to continue the public hearing until a date certain and then that's a in order and you would need to specify very specific information that you would need in order to make your decision. at the next hearing date. And that's another reason why that we kept the public hearing open. Just now. So, that that is another option outside of, you know, in order to help aid your decision, because I think, you know, and I think we didn't necessarily know exactly what questions would arise. at this hearing so it was hard to ask questions right away by email and you answered them so we all saw some of that, you know, that's a good to do it. Oh yeah. Just a matter of looking at stuff when it first comes out. Okay, so let's go to geographic importance and then we can sort of wrap this up in any any, any variety of outcomes. So, votes for geographic importance. Patricia all the intent of it has geographic importance for for a Greek park. And so I would, I would say yes. Catherine. I'm sorry muted. I'm so sorry, I was saying, I would say yes, it's it's I'm on the line for this but I think that there is something that can be argued for the fact for 1341 20 as in we're looking at the context or part of the intent. Becky. I'll say no. Yeah, I have to say no on this one. I don't think it's that distinctive area. And ready. I'm going to say yes under 4120. Okay. And I'm going to say yes also. So that's a yes. So we have. So the operative sets of the just the definite operative set of criteria has to do with geographic importance and we're a little bit on the fence with architectural importance. So, let's see. At this point, we need to determine whether we believe this has to do with that. Well, the criteria, our vote on the criteria establishes that we think it has significance as a structure. And now are. Now we need a motion about whether to grant the demolition permit. And a second to that motion and then we can have further discussion about what to do about this so a motion. Do we want, before we make the motion, do we consider whether those who have stained need more time to do research? Or is it. I think we need to go ahead with a motion because we have gone through the criteria and at least one of them, which is all that is needed. Okay, we have established there is significance. Okay. What, you know, how we proceed is the discussion that comes after the motion. Okay. You wait me to make the motion everyone. Let's let's change things up. Let's do it. Come on Catherine make the motion. I make the motion to. I move. I move, but I don't know I haven't done this before Jan help me. I was just going to add, I mean, I think there is opportunity for discussion if there are folks are thinking. There is. Yes, that that comes after the motion. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I move that we grant. The demolition permit for. What is the address? 47 Olympia drive. 47 Olympia drive. Okay, so that. I move that the commission has found that this is a significant structure, but that it's demolition would not impair the historic or architectural. We have to make a motion to, to consider this by moving to look at it. Right. This is, this is what I don't know when I was just a second ago, are we going to do more research? Are we going to wait another month? I think that's the discussion we're having right now. Motion has been made and has been seconded by someone. Has it been seconded? No, I second it. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. It was the appropriate motion. It was the appropriate motion. Thank you. So now, now we discuss what, what to do about this. It's been a long day. So here are our options. We can proceed to an immediate vote to grant the demolition permit. We can. Vote against the demolition permit. We can proceed to an immediate vote to grant the demolition permit. We can. Vote against the demolition permit. We can. Vote against the demolition permit. We can place conditions on the demolition. Permit. Which could involve, or we could simply vote. Okay, Ben. Spot me here. We could. Vote. Down the. Motion and then vote to continue the hearing. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Or it would be a continuation of discussion of the motion. Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think that everyone works. Yeah. So if I could just. I can maybe start off the conversation. I am sensing obviously their sensitivity towards the. Distinctiveness of this building and the, you know, it's. Kind of connection to the, this. Part of Amherst history and, and, and all of that. I think. Regardless of what you decide a good. Option is also to, or a good. Condition might be to inventory the property at the very least, because right now. It's not listed on the state register. There's no. Inventory form. So when the building is demolished, that history would be lost. And similarly, if there's any pictures of the previous. The building at 57 Olympia drive, we might do that at the same time as well. So that's a way of at least, you know, preserving in a sense that the history. And, you know, it might be something you consider. Outside of, you know, in addition to the, what you decide on the demolition as well. I'm really glad you said that then because that was something I was going to bring up if we could do, if we could start that process. Yeah, I agree with that. Because to me, regardless of what we decide in the next few minutes, I really think that this should be documented. Yeah, I agree with that. And my comments and extensions were about the context. Of the building. And that should, that should be documented. So if it's inventory. It will be documented. So can we. Do a delay until that happens. And can you give us more information about the architect? Well, that's not the developer's purview to have to tell us the history or the architect that was that built this building. And if it's going to be documented, yeah, we could just ask for enough time to have that happen before demolition. What I'm wondering is. Kyle, you're going to die when you hear this and you're going to probably, if you ever meet me on the street, you're going to push me into an oncoming car. I mean, I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. Would. Archipelago consider incorporating a portion of this building into the new one to keep that look on a. A section of it to kind of pay homage to that style and that effort that was made at the time. I mean, I'm sure you probably have the plans. You're ready to go. You, you know, you're starting to put the piling. I'm not going to say that. Is that been considered at all? There are some bricks within the, the building that are important to Kyle mega. That we said we would maintain for them, obviously, because they want to remove them and take those before it comes down. We have not thought about integrating. Something else from the building into what's proposed. It's obviously. A building that we think is more suited to our current condition. So I think we'll say that. A delay is serious business. Does cause, does cost real money does, you know, jeopardize projects. Does prevent things from moving forward in a time that we really don't need that. And I just needed to. Make sure everybody was aware of things like that. I have no problem documenting the building. So I think that. A delay is. Does have real world repercussions. So the plans are, are finished and ready to roll. There's no. Modification to the style that's possible. I think, I think you might find, I think, I think. You know, some of the elements of. I mean, there's, we haven't talked about taking any of the bricks off the building or any of the window trim or saving any roof. Or there's not much to the building. I mean, it's a gable roof on a, on a brick box with some bump outs for the units. So we haven't talked about saving any of that in any meaningful way. Because I don't, it's not, there's not, it's not a building where that's something like that is readily apparent to save. You're not saving a keystone or. No, I would be talking about, you know, a portion of the. Bump outs on the gable simple box. I mean, that's the look of that era. I think an option for us, I think an option for us is to go ahead and take a vote on the demolition application. I mean, we could take a positive vote on it with a condition that documentation occurs in a, in a timely fashion. And is submitted to the historical commissioner town staff. What is it? It sounds like that's the motion, Jane. That's not the motion. That's part of a discussion. But, but it, but it's, it's. It's asking for a motion to, to that effect. It's, so the motion is to allow the demolition permit to go forward. Period. We still have the option of placing conditions on that. So it's just a suggestion for a condition. Yeah. Right. And what is documentation if I may ask, what does that entail? Ben. Yeah. So the, the state, Massachusetts historical commission has an inventory form. It's called their form B. And it's fairly straightforward. It's a, you know, images of the, of the building, you know, and architectural description, historical description, a bit of narrative. Okay. I can find it. Okay. Yeah. I don't have an inventory form. I don't have an inventory form. I don't have an inventory form from the outside to. Do it. But usually we can handle that in house as well. Okay. Okay. Are we ready to come to a vote? I think someone needs to make a motion, maybe about that condition. We need to amend. Right. We need to amend the motion friendly amendment. All right. I could do it. I'd be happy to do that. I don't know if I have the, the terminology wrong. I vote that we move to approve the demolition. With a condition that documentation be made. Historic documentation in a timely fashion. That's that right. Well, that an inventory be made. According to right. According to the. The procedure that the state. Yeah. Okay. Will the historic commission be responsible for that part? No. Oh, you mean our. The local historical commission. Yes. Yes. Yes. To do the inventory. Okay. Ben. I, you know, frankly, I've never in my two or so years here. I've never done an inventory form. I assume. I've never done an inventory form. I haven't done that. I've never done that. I've never done that. I've never done that. I've never. I've never done that. I've never done that. I've never done that. I've never done that. There are comments from the local, from the Amherst historical commission, but. You know, certainly members of the commission can do research and help out and. In producing the document, but I don't know if. If it's really the commission as a whole that. Guides the process. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that we will have some responsibility for. completeness and the submission of the form. And if we decide to do this, then we should add that the demolition can only commence after we're satisfied with the inventory, that it's complete, right? And I would just say that that is, my only caution is that we're talking about a 1971 building that many people have not seen that is tucked away, that is, and I wouldn't wanna get caught into an inventory process that is long and continuous and takes multiple meetings and costs consultants fees and CPA money for a project that many people have never seen before. So I just wanna be cautious of that, please. I don't think it's a lengthy process. Is it bad? Okay, I just don't know. I just don't know. I don't think that there is a specific timetable. If what we're talking about is that the form is accepted by the State Historical Commission enlisted on the database, that's something out of our control. And I think it would not be reasonable for us to hinge the load. No, I wasn't suggesting that, just that it's complete and ready to send. And we feel like we've got documentation. I think that the thing that we need to say is that the form B has been completed and filed with the State. Yes. Because we can do that in a timely fashion. Yes, exactly. And then can be the arbiter and say it's good or it's not good. You didn't complete it. It doesn't require a meeting. It just matters sitting down and doing it and maybe getting photos from you with the inside and more at the outside of something. So, yeah. Okay. All right. So we have a motion. We have an amendment. Ken. Someone needs a second, Becky. Second the amendment. I will second the amendment. Okay. Thank you. All right. Then let's go to a vote and is everyone clear on the motion and the amendment? It is to allow the demolition permit to go forward on the condition that a state historical commission inventory form B is completed for the property in a timely fashion. Completed and filed. Yeah, but we're not hinging it on. We're not hinging it on approval by the state. We're just hinging it on the process of doing the form B and getting that to the state. Jane said completed. She didn't say filed. Filed would depend on the state accepting it. Completed is that it's ready to send off. Okay. Okay. All right. Then let's go to a vote. Patricia off. I agree. Let's see. Catherine Davis. Yes, I agree. Becky Lockwood. Yes. I agree. Thank you. Janet Marquardt. You know, Kyle, I never said that I didn't want the building to be demolished. I just wanted to make sure that we had a record that this is something that has architectural significance. So I agree. I'm just giving you a hard time, Kyle, because I don't want your life to be too easy. And Hedy, start up. I'm going to abstain. I don't work for Kaya Omega, but I do work for a UMass sorority. And I think in the interests of trying to be fair and impartial, I'm going to abstain. All right. And I vote yes. So we have, let's see, five yes and one abstention. So the motion passes and we, we, How about work? All right. Thank you. And I'll talk, I'll reach out to Ben. I appreciate it. Okay. Thank you, Kyle. All right. Have a good night. Okay. Thank you. You too. So at this time, I'd like to ask for a motion to close public hearing. I'll make that motion again. Let's close. Thank you, Jan. And may I have a second? I'll second. Thank you. And all in favor raise your hand. Hi. You're unanimous. Great. Thank you. Okay. So the public hearing is closed. And now there is tech, what a joint meeting that we will open with the trustees of the Jones library. Correct. So thank you to the library trustees for your patience and Sharon and for the members of the public as well for bearing with us. Have you not learned a lot? About a lot, but have you not learned a lot? Okay. Well, welcome. It's a real pleasure to be able to participate in this meeting with all of you from the library. In a way, we should do more of this, but we have a specific purpose for this this evening and that is to hear about the historic structure report for the Jones library. And I just maybe have just a couple of things to say about the project because I am one of the guilty ones who thought that this would be a terrific idea to have a historic structure report for the development. That could, that would be kind of a marker for how we as a community could talk about the historic significance of elements of the library and its importance to the community through time and the future direction for the library. But from our perspective as a historical commission wanting to document and honor and preserve important sort of significant elements of this very important community structure. But also to provide kind of an objective benchmark for being able to prioritize the significance of historic features of the building as we as a community contemplate change. So that was kind of the original impetus for the historic structure report. And it has of course run into a couple of speed bumps. And I'm just really delighted that the current team led by Anne Marshall and Eric Radoya has produced such a compelling report clear in its assessment of the building. And I think it has given all of us and I hope especially the trustees a helpful tool. In forward planning. So I'm delighted that this project has come to this moment and I'm really eager to hear more from the historic structure report team. Austin please. First of all, Jane, thank you. Thanks to the commission. Thanks to Ben. And obviously thanks for the wonderful work that went into the historic structures report. I think I have to do a formality, Jane, since there is a quorum of the library trustees here I think, and the meeting has been noticed. I think I have to call us to order and take attendance. Is that okay to do? Please, yes, please do. Okay, so I wanna call the meeting of the Jones Library Board of Trustees to order and would ask you to signify your presence by saying that you're here. Alex? Here. Thank you. Tammy? Yes. Farah? Here. Nice to see you. Bob? Here. And I see Lee Edwards lurking in the shadows. There you go. Yeah. And I'm Austin Sarich. So we're all here and all convened. And again, thank you for this opportunity and thank you really for the great work that went into the historic structures report. Thank you. Thanks, Austin. Welcome, welcome all. So at this point, I believe Ben, will we promote Anne and Eric and Carly? Good evening. Hello, Anne. Hello, Eric. Hello. Hello, Eric. And hopefully we have, can we bring Carly Regalotto on as well? Hopefully Carly's there. He is. There. Hi, Carly. Hey, Carly. We're looking forward to presenting the Jones Library Historic Structures Report this evening. And I'd like to give you a bit of background on who we are. My name is Anne Marshall and I'm on a one-year appointment at visiting lecture in architecture at UMass Amherst. I was asked to take over the reins as the principal investigator on preparing the Jones Library HSR from Professor Elger Walker at UMass. And I brought both Eric Gradoia and Carly Regalotto onto my team to complete the work. Pulling these two onto my team has been my biggest and wisest contribution to this project as I think you'll see from Eric's presentation this evening. Eric Gradoia consults in the field of architectural history and building conservation. He's the director of historic preservation at Historic Deerfield and previously held positions at the Albany, New York firm of Missick, Cohen Wilson Baker Architects and with the Massachusetts Historical Commission. He served as an adjunct faculty member at Roger Williams University in the Boston Architectural College, teaching undergraduate and graduate courses in American architectural history. He holds his BA in architectural conservation from Roger Williams University and his master's in historic preservation from the University of Vermont. Eric's primary fields of study include New England vernacular architecture and the evolution of American building practices. Carly, the other member of my team has a degree in political science pre-law from Michigan State University and is currently pursuing a master's degree at UMass in historic preservation and architecture. She plans to graduate this spring and is currently working on her thesis titled Mycelium, the Building Blocks of Nature and the Nature of Architecture. I hold a degree in interior design from Auburn University and a master's in architecture from Harvard. I've held various adjunct positions at UMass, Mount Holyoke College and Hampshire College prior to my appointment at UMass. And my first project out of school was to carry out a winning competition entry for the Women's Rights National Historical Park in Seneca Falls, New York, for which I was on the other end of an HSR done by the National Park Service, formulating a design which met all of the established design parameters while preserving the critical historic fabric. I currently have my own architectural practice in Amherst and also partner with my husband in our Interpretive Exhibition Design Company. We'd like to thank Professor Elder Walker and her students for getting the ball rolling on this report. Town Meeting, which allocated the funds in 2017, Benjamin Breger in the Amherst Planning Department, Jane Wall, Chair of the Historical Commission, the Jones Trustees and the staff of the Jones Library including Sharon Sherry, Facility Supervisor George Hicks, and Head of Special Collection, Cynthia Harbison and her staff for All Matter of Health. I'll turn the presentation over to Eric, after which there will be time for any questions that you may have. And UMass, Amherst, thanks you for the opportunity to complete this important work for the town. We've had a, it's been an education for us and I think we've all gotten different positive aspects out of the project. So we look forward to giving you the presentation. So all yours, Eric. All right, very good. Well, let me see, I'll start to share my screen. Let's see. There we go. Okay, I'd just like to begin by sort of giving you a refresher memory on the scope of the work of the project and the scope of the Historic Structures Report or HSR was to provide a background on the architects and design of the 1928 building, provide an architectural description, an analysis of the building's plans in relation to the original layout and design, do an overview of chronology of changes to the building and then an assessment of the physical condition and offer recommendations for the treatment of the building itself. So I'd first like to begin with talking about the architectural firm that designed this building and that's the Boston firm of Putnam and Cox Architects, you may have heard their name, are familiar with it from the history of the library. Putnam and Cox started in 1901 and had approximately in a 40-year run. And their projects are largely understudied and there really isn't a full representation of their work. They worked primarily in Massachusetts and the surrounding New England States. In Massachusetts, there are 50 known buildings and structures that are attributed to them. They largely were responsible for large private dwelling houses, public buildings and institutional buildings as well. What's written on them, what does exist, which is very little, often notes so that some of their best works are the Jones Library and the Lord Jeffery Inn or the Inn on Boltwood, as it's known now. They've been credited with designing and constructing nine fraternity houses for Amherst College and a number of buildings at Mount Holyoke College. Most of their residential buildings are found in the suburbs of Boston. So Brookline, Watertown, Boston proper itself. And they worked largely in what's known as the colonial revival style or back in the early 20th century, late 19th century, what was referred to as the new colonial style. And this was a method of a design of architecture that took inspiration from early American building examples, buildings from the 17th, 18th and 19th century. And it drew from them stylistically and also from their architectural elements and materials that were used in those buildings. And sometimes these colonial revival buildings are the use of design and ornament was kind of free and loose. And in other instances, it was a very academic and sort of a very specific copy of representations of past pieces of architecture in buildings. So while Putnam and Cox is often attributed to the building, this building, the library is really the product of Alan Howard Cox who you see here on the right hand side of the screen. He was the principal who is attributed through documentation, it's well documented for designing this building and seeing its construction. Cox is a very interesting man. He was the son of a physician. He was offered a very good education as a child and as a young man. He studied in schools in Holyoke and Williston Seminary in Northampton. From there, he went to MIT where he studied architecture. He continued his studies in Paris at the Col du Beaux Arts. He comes back to America in about 1900, 1901 and teams up with William Edward Putnam to start his firm, their firm. He continued as a professor until 1913 at MIT. But what's most fascinating I find about him is that he was born in South Hadley. So he's local to the area. And given sort of his background and other pieces of architecture that are attributed to him and the firm, I imagine that he had a very strong interest in architecture and his surroundings as a young man. I should say he passed away in Granby, Massachusetts in 1944. He lived largely in Cambridge. So when you look at this building, while most people say it's a colonial revival building, that's really not doing it justice because that's really a generalization, a very broad term. When I look at this building and what I hope to sort of instill in all of you is when you look at this building, this is a colonial revival structure that is heavily inspired and deeply rooted in Connecticut River Valley architecture, specifically 18th century Connecticut River Valley architecture. And what's really impressive about that is that when this building was initially designed in the late 1910s and constructed in the 1920s, 1927, people weren't really focusing in looking at specifically Connecticut River Valley architecture or vernacular architecture and sort of its history and influences. So Alan Cox had a very keen eye and was very much aware of his surroundings, I'm sure as a young man. So to really understand this building, what I'd like to do is just give you a little bit of a background on what exactly I mean by Connecticut River Valley vernacular architecture because the term, and I use it in quotes, colonial is very broad, it can mean a lot of different things. But, and I'll talk about this in the context of the Connecticut River Valley within Massachusetts and Connecticut. But so in the 17th and 18th centuries, unlike the coastal communities of say, Boston, Providence, Portsmouth, these urban coastal hubs, the towns within the Connecticut River Valley were essentially largely isolated and distant from the influences and the sort of current fashions that were either going on in these urban areas along the coastline or the ideas and trends that were being brought over from overseas and sort of taking place during the late 16, early 1700s. So as a result of that, a very unique, the valley towns develop kind of architectural styles, furniture styles that are very unique to this region, this area, especially their detailing. So as you see here on these different pieces of furniture and architecture, you see sort of this carved ornament of vines and tendrils and flowers. You see things used like rosettes up here in the capital areas of this frontist piece, different sort of floral motifs, carved ornament, sort of what's known as gouge and punch work that's utilized these heavy pulvinated friezes here. So a wide range of different ornament and detailing that is at this time just very local to the valley region. You don't see this elsewhere. You don't see this in architecture and furniture in sort of the Boston area down in, you certainly don't see it in the Hudson River Valley, to our neighbors to the west and whatnot. This is very specific here. In addition to this, so it was going on in the valley during the early 18th century as the population hubs, as the urban areas increased in their populations and densities, the products of the agriculture here in this region are feeding these different areas and whatnot. And it makes the towns here very prosperous. And by the mid 18th century, the farming villages along the Connecticut River Valley were some of the wealthiest agricultural communities in all of the colonies. So we have these families that are generating, great wealth. And these sort of the wealthiest of these elites, what were known as the river gods, families like the Dickinson's, like the Williams, like the Dwights, a way to show off their status in the community and whatnot was the development of a new sort of building type, a new, I don't wanna say a new form of architecture, but it was largely a building type that differentiated itself from the building forms, the traditional building forms of the, say the first, almost the first half of the 18th century. And what that form was, and we're probably all familiar with this, is the center chimney house. This house type that comes over from England and spreads throughout New England, where we have generally one large chimney mess that rises up through the center of the building with a door on its access, you enter into a small type vestibule with a winder stair to it, rooms to either side. That was the traditional dwelling house form for generally for good houses, I should say too. But this house form of the river gods, which I'll call the large mansion house of the 18th century, is this house plan here, and that's represented by these two houses I'm showing. And what that is, is around the 1740s, the emergence of the center passage house, right? So where the chimney, the center chimney is removed two separate chimney masses are constructed, and you have a large open stair hall, a large open passage that allows for a straight run stair. And that's one of the hallmark features of this mansion house, is that center stair or center passage. The other feature is this gambrel roof form that begins to emerge around 1740s and then onwards. And this house form lasts till about the third quarter of the 18th century and then gets replaced with a new form. But this, you know, this gambrel roof, which is a very visual distinct feature, separates this house from the more common pitched roofs, gable roofs that were traditional at the time. And then the third architectural detail that kind of completes this new house form are these elaborate frontispieces that you see here at the entries. And here are a couple of examples removed from their buildings, but still in existence. And what these are are Connecticut River Valley doorways. This is a door type, a door surround, again, like the furniture, like those details I was talking about that you only see within the Connecticut River Valley area. And they are inspired by classical door surrounds that are being illustrated in English and European architectural treaties that were popular, you know, again, in urban areas and hubs and all throughout the colonies. But what sets these apart are a number of different details to them aspect. First off is just their proportioning. They tend to be much wider and taller pieces. And that is to accommodate the tradition of double doors that most of these houses utilized, a feature that was really unique to the Connecticut River Valley. The proportions of them are off. But also instead of using true classical ornament or orders like, you know, Ionic Dora columns or whatnot, you see that they utilize things like pedestals here with paneling to them. Notice the pedestals of this door surround here. You know, these motifs that are coming out of the, you know, the furniture that's being produced and that's heavily inspired by agriculture and, you know, the land. So vines, tendrils, flower, tulip ornaments, rosettes up in the scrolls. So this completes that sort of large mansion house building type. And so when we look at Jones Library and we look at it carefully and closely, we see that it's much more than just a colonial revival building. It's Alan Cox's take on this Connecticut River Valley architecture and this Connecticut River Valley house. So as you look at the frontispiece here, which is a wonderful, now 20th century interpretation of an 18th century architectural element, you see that it, you know, it utilizes a lot of those details, the scroll top pediment, you know, the little bracketing, this very interesting ornament here, the pilasters, the tombstone panels in the pedestal. But then it's also being adopted for 20th century accommodations. So instead of double doors, it's a single glazed door here. But again, you know, tying in that panel work down below, it employs side lights into it, you know, it has the transom lights up above in the style of kind of the tombstone paneling that we see. So what Alan Cox is doing is his own interpretation of this Connecticut River Valley dwelling house imposed on essentially an institutional building. And from the get go, and I'm sure some of you are familiar with this, you know, the idea was to design this building after a residence. You know, if you look at other libraries that are being constructed, even in the immediate area around here, you know, Arms Library and what are some of the others, I'm forgetting their names, but a lot of the times they're in, they're in the classical styles. So this is a really unique sort of departure and a very unique building type and form for a library. So I'd like to look carefully at the building now and sort of walk you around it and then through it to give you an understanding of what, how the building appeared and what the character defining features of it are and what remains. And the building remains largely intact when we look at it on the exterior. It's lost the shutters at the windows. But when we look at this building, what Jones Library exhibits is a studied understanding of the local historic architecture with design and construction methods characteristic of the early 20th century. If you look at all the materials on the exterior, they draw from the colonial palette. So it's form and massing is reminiscent of that large mansion house dwelling. Has that sort of that boxy form to it the large gambrel roof, single story wings that are projecting that project off the main body of the building. And then as we walk around, I'll show you this sort of the other elevations. But so to the unfamiliar, it appears as a large residence just as intended by the architect. And this is reinforced by the use of traditional domestic details for many of the exterior architectural elements. So these include, like I showed you, this frontus piece here at the south entry, but a slate roofing material, dormers and large chimneys, symmetrical sort of composition to the building, a beautiful classical cornice right underneath the roof line here, copper gutters. If you look at the fenestration of the building, it's all multi-light wood frame windows, typical of what you'd find in a dwelling house. Cox's own unique sort of little treatment are these sun porches as he calls them. And then as we walk around, you'll see that on the side of the building here, he includes kind of this sprawling wing, this rear L that projects to the north off, much the way you would see on a vernacular dwelling house that has evolved over time and grown. So in a house, we'd expect to see the services, kitchen back here, maybe an attached barn or outbuilding woodshed. So Cox, in order to accommodate the functions within the building, includes this essentially L, back L to it. But if you notice, he changes up the palette of materials. So instead of all stone that we see on the front facade, he utilizes brick, some clabbereds, again, large multi-light windows to it, these tall masonry chimneys. It's more regular than the front of the building. And then as we go around to the back of the original part of the library, on the north elevation, it's treated with this central pavilion element with this palladian window here. And remember that, keep that in your minds, it'll come into play as I show you some images down the line. So the original plans of the building and the original arrangement on the interior. This, mirroring the domestic appearance of the exterior, the interior itself was designed and constructed in a scale and appearance reminiscent of a stately 18th century house. And this was achieved through an arrangement, the arrangement of spaces, the scale of the rooms and their architectural treatment, nearly all of which still exists. So the interior was organized into a series of discrete spaces each intended for its specific use or activity. So a close look at the plans here shows that there's a clear hierarchy of spaces on the interior of the building, both by floor level and as you ascend up through the building with the most public rooms located on the ground floor and increasingly private spaces as you ascend up through the library. So this is the original ground floor plan. It was really divided into the children's stacks and reading area, the adults reading rooms and stacks here and periodicals, administrative spaces, special collection space in the East Sun porch. And then this is that rear L that he has projecting off, right? And that was the original auditorium space. So the seating area and then the stage area here. As we move up to the second floor, you'll see here, so we're in the stair hall and really in the main block of the building, it was three large spaces, an exhibit room, the Amherst collections room and the Jones Memorial room. And then in the side wings, these much smaller rooms, we had a music room, the fine arts room originally. And then again in that auditorium wing on the L as one ascended essentially up the stairs here, a small room that led out to the balcony area with a projection booth above. And then this was all open to the second floor, both in the seating area and in the stage. And then from the second floor to the third floor, very interesting space. The third floor was essentially originally what was called the studio for special art exhibitions. Later the Robert Frost room, now I believe the trustees meeting room here, but then to the east of it, a series of small writing rooms for private use here. See, so as you make your way up through the building and ever increasingly privacy to it. The interior finishes were and are exquisite, they really are. Although the size and use of the rooms vary throughout the library, there is generally kind of a unique sort of universal palette of materials used to finish them all. And in keeping with the domestic theme of the architecture, the interior finishes were modeled after those typically found in formal examples of quote-unquote colonial dwellings. And this is kind of where Cox moves away from this 18th century mansion house form and utilizes a more kind of almost an austere sort of the federal style form of interior treatments with a lot of the woodwork in here versus that the heavy sort of paneled work you would find it in one of those mansion houses. So the quality of this woodwork is worth noting. And one of the details I came across as I went through the archival information was essentially what's called a schedule of values. So as the contractor's constructing the building, he submits to the owner's a schedule of values and that's what they invoice or pay the contractor against. And it lays out each category of work, concrete and maybe painting and roofing and all these different items. And for the interior finish woodwork, that line item came in at $42,642. That one single item represented approximately 18% of the overall cost of the building went into just treating the interior finishes. So that, you know, and these finishes were largely Philippine mahogany for things like doors, mantle pieces, trim work, a lot of the finish mill work in the building. The stair I just showed you was what was known as a Philippine wall nut. That was sort of its common name. It's imported wood. And then all the flooring appears to have been oak flooring that was used through the building. But let's see. There's a certain sort of restrained elegance to the treatment of the mill work. It's wonderful, it's wonderful design. The interior itself, like I said, it took on this domestic atmosphere both in the way the architecture was treated and then how the spaces were furnished too. Pieces of furniture that you would expect to find within dwellings, you know, sofas or satis, you know, wing-backed chairs, chairs all done again in kind of this new colonial style, colonial revival style of furniture. And here's, you know, the children's reading room, notice sort of the paneled walls here and sort of, you know, the pilasters, flanking large fireplaces, ceiling lighting, really, you know, just beautiful stuff, very, very well done. So you have this cohesive exterior brought into the interior. So this piece of architecture, that's really one unified whole here, you know. So, let's see, where was I? Oh, and, you know, again, if you look carefully at sort of the details, the carved work and the brackets here, you know, again, this is all inspired taken from these turned newls, what one might expect to see in one of these stately mansion houses in the 18th century. And then elsewhere, this is kind of that more, you know, federal style-inspired ornament here with, here's a detail of it, you know, gouge and punch work and fluting on the pilasters. Look at this mantle piece, this is just one of many, but when you look very carefully at it, not only is it sort of this reading and, you know, fluting underneath, but within it is like this shield motif here and down below. And this goes on and on and on throughout the rooms. Some of the capitals in the woodwork, in the children's reading room and at the main entry of the library, utilize detailing and inspired by that Connecticut River Valley design. You know, it's not an exact copy of it, but it alludes to that tradition that was seen on the furniture of the 17th and 18th centuries. So that's a look at the 1928 building. Now, we were asked to look at the chronology of changes and really, you know, I'm not looking at all the small little details that happened over the decades in order to maintain the building, but these are kind of large campaigns that had some sort of substantial impact on the library itself. And the first one that occurs is this 1968 Alderman and McNeish campaign of improvement. So by the 60s, the library is running short on space, how the spaces were being utilized, have changed and kind of evolved. Like any building, the architects have one intent of how buildings are supposed to be functioned and reality takes over and spaces change and take on kind of their own use and function. And so by the 60s, it was determined that the building needed more space, the sort of the room uses and functions needed to be improved. And by this point in time, the auditorium was deemed too large for the library's needs and essentially called what was a waste of space. And so really what was done at this time was in the main body of the building, kind of a reorganization of room uses and shifting of those. But the greatest impact that occurred was in the auditorium area. And if you haven't seen what the auditorium looked like, looked like originally, these are a couple of good images looking, this is looking at the stage, you're essentially looking to the north. And if you can see behind the stage, there's that Palladian window I showed you from the exterior right here. But open to the ceiling, vaulted, dormers allowing natural light in. And then if we turn around and look to the rear of the auditorium, we have this gallery up above. Keep an eye on this spindle bow straight that's right here, railing. A projection booth above that and then seating. Another fireplace in the rear. And these are, these have since I believe been closed in, but these would have led out to essentially the entry vestibule in the east wing of the building. So this was the space that in the 1960s was converted into more stack space. And here we are in what was the auditorium. And if you look very carefully right here, are the pilasters to that Palladian window. That's right here, here's a pilaster and here's a pilaster. So we're on the ground floor here. A second floor was inserted to take advantage of the loftiness of the room. And if you look back here, here's that railing to the gallery area where the projection booth was up here. So that really expanded and provided more room in the 1960s. But again, 30 years later or so, the same needs occur, right? Changing, so there's a whole mix of factors in the late 80s and 90s, right? It's the need for more room, for specialized rooms and spaces, for increased community activities to accommodate new and emerging technologies that were out there in different mediums of media, right? Record CDs, things of that nature, DVDs. So that's where we have this, the second large campaign that takes place, the 1993 Mark Mitchell Associates Edition, which I believe adds somewhere in the area of about 12,000 square feet to the library. So here's the end of the original building, the auditorium space. And this edition essentially fills in to the west and to the south here, utilizing again, it was a sympathetic design to the library, utilizing similar pallets of materials, window fenestration, things of that nature. But it also incorporated the atrium to it too, to take advantage of this central court, essentially, that was created by the construction of the perimeter edition here. So with the construction of the 93 edition, essentially it was largely added on to the existing library. And what this is showing is the floor plan of the 1928 building, overlaid with the 1993 first floor plan to it. And there were some alterations made in order to open up window openings that were redundant, that were no longer needed, widening some doorways in order to allow better access through spaces, a reconfiguring of the office spaces here within the main building, meaning the addition of a wall and doorways here and there. But by and large, the 1928 structure, remains largely intact. There were some modifications, but it's still in there, buried within the greater hole here. In looking at the condition of the library, considering its age, the 1928 building appears to remain in fairly good condition. And that's a testament to, it's accomplished design, the use of quality materials and its construction, and just good general construction overall, the way the structure itself, what's buried behind these walls is essentially a very stout method of building. The problems that were observed largely relate to just the sheer age of the building and that it's been out in the weather for nearly coming up on 100 years. So things like the roofing, the window systems, the storm windows, paint finishes, they've essentially reached their end at the end of their service life and really just need to be addressed. So if we look at the slate roof itself, this is a 100 year old slate roof, this is Buckingham slate, which is from Virginia. Originally it was gonna be a beautiful, well, it was gonna be a main slate, months in main slate, there was a change order. They're both probably two of the best slates that you could use. But what you see here in the New England climate, this is typical of a slate roof of its age. You have snow and ice coming off of upper roofs that come down, crack slates, you have nails that corrode rust through time and let slates slip out and disappear. You have repairs, periodic repairs made to it. Here's the roof of the West Sunroom. You can see that's taken a beating from the upper roofs dropping snow and ice down onto it. You've got your money out of this roof, you definitely did, it's served its term. The other thing are just our paint finishes and paint periodically needs to be maintained, but over time, if left, you see what we have here. And there are other factors at play here that I'll get to in a second, but the paint finishes throughout are at the end of their service life. Other issues that were observed are these periodic changes that have been made to the library through time, in this case, on the exterior. So here clearly, an ADA, universally accessible entry needed to be introduced. So we see here the historic entry, two steps up in, these beautiful, again, this is 1928 material, Cox utilizing that rosette motif, the fluted pilaster set on these pedestals. But features like this could have been executed better, could have maintained these door designs. Could have maintained the basis to these columns, not just being set into concrete, but this stuff happens. There are incremental changes that get done little by little over the course of decades. Probably one of the sort of the biggest or largest detractors to the library though is that it's hidden behind all of this vegetation, all of this growth surrounding the library. And I'm all for landscaping and proper landscaping, but plantings and trees need to be carefully planned out and located properly because they mature. That's what trees do, good trees grow and what seemed to be far enough away maybe when it was initially planted, turns out to be much too close 10, 15, 20 years later. It detracts from seeing the architecture, really experiencing the building as a whole, as what it was meant to be. But also with dense amounts of planting so close to the building, traps, moisture close and up against a building, something you don't want. You really want buildings to be able to breathe and dry out quickly. So it's conditions like these that shorten up the lifespan of paint systems that don't let them, that traps moisture and causes them to fail prematurely. Also it prevents natural light from entering into your building. So again, it's incremental, these things just creep up slowly over years and then one day you look at it and here it is. As we move to the interior of the building, I said, much of the 1928 finishes, treatments survive and are there. But again, it's buried behind incremental changes that I'm sure were performed out of necessity. But when you retrofit existing buildings, it's often difficult to integrate these in as you might in new construction. So what happens is first, the fire suppression system shows up and it's surface mounted here. And going along with that might be emergency lighting and smoke and heat detectors. Lighting fixtures periodically change over right through time. So we go from one type to another type to sort of this very modern up lighting here, a lighting form that the design of the space wasn't really intended for. Retrofitting the fireplaces with mechanicals, infilling that. So little by little, this space takes on this appearance and is more sort of distant from how it was originally intended to appear to those using the library to the public. So this incremental change on the interior and I see this all the time, especially with sort of institutional buildings. Over the decades, it's what happens. But perhaps a change that I think makes a huge difference on how the interior appears to people is that it's lost its color, it's been diluted. And if we look at these historic photos taken shortly after the building was constructed, you see the white of this cornice here that I'm sure was painted white and even the ceilings. We see the walls in a darker, a contrasting color itself. And this is seen throughout the historic images of the library. So you look at the stair hall here, see the darker wall color here. Who knows what that color was originally? You look into the adult reading room beyond, you see there's a different tone to the wall surface here. At the completion of the library, the trustees reached out to the contractors and different subcontractors and asked for quantities that were used in the completion of the building. And in the shop that furnished, did the interior decorating, the painting of the interior, they note that they used over 9,900 pounds of paint pigment in finishing the interior of the library and over 200 gallons of what they call liquids, which I'm sure is turpentine and probably linseed oil, they're mixing the paints for the interior use. So clearly the interior had a much different appearance color-wise than we see today. And then finally, I'd like to finish by, I was part of the scope of the work we were asked to provide recommendations for the treatment of the building. And what I can offer you are essentially guidelines for how to treat or an approach to treating the library. So as I say here, preservation involves treating existing construction in a manner that respects the original design and intent of the architecture. This is an approach, a philosophical approach, how you decide to treat your building here. So what I recommend is establishing a framework that shapes this approach that preserves and protects those character defining features of the building, both inside and out, so that future repairs and improvements can be planned, implemented, and someday maybe even removed with the least impact to the integrity of the building. It's a sustainable way of managing what you have here. Your stewards of this building. And again, if the idea is to manage this for future generations, it needs to be done in a considered way. Then I'm not gonna read these verbatim, but the idea is that any of the work affecting the 1928 building should be done in a way that avoids altering or damaging the historic fabric. There needs to be a respect for the original design intent and the features and the elements of it must be considered in any future improvements. Use of spaces should be compatible with their original use, so that any functions are done to minimize change to the layout and volumes of the space. Original materials and character defining elements should be retained as much as possible, maybe even reinstated if they're missing. New programs introduced to the building should be sympathetic to the fabric of the space. Let the building tell you what can be done with it, don't impose your ideas onto it. Materials used in the repair of the building should meet or exceed the quality of those used in the original construction. The workmanship should match the quality of construction originally utilized and probably one of the more difficult, but one of the more important is that the installation or replacement of modern building systems should not be done in a way that adversely affects the integrity of the building. And like I said, past alterations that detract from the integrity of the building should be reversed when circumstances allow. These guidelines, these are kind of developed and tailored to your building. They parallel the Secretary of Interior standards for the treatment of historic buildings that are a much more general and broadly stated sort of treatment recommendations. So if you're going after, I believe there's CPA money that might be used in this or tax credits, things of that nature, you'll need to sort of to abide by those standards in order to meet the regulations for those monies. So that's just a quick overview of the historic structures report itself. If you haven't read it, please urge you to read it. I think you'll find it interesting. It's only a small amount of a great wealth of archival information that exists within your special collections department. It's really a fascinating story, a fascinating building to look at. And it's really a wonderful piece of community architecture that was bestowed upon you from generations ago. And it was a privilege really to look at this building and have an opportunity to sort of get those, to know those who are involved in the design of it and what they were thinking. So with that, I'll conclude my presentation and Jane or Ben, I'll allow you to take over from here. Eric, thanks so much for just an amazing presentation about the importance of this structure. I think really, what you've described is the inheritance of the Connecticut River Valley, the unique Connecticut River Valley architecture and decorative tradition has just really, I think struck a chord really driven home one of the kind of really essential features of this library and its inheritance from domestic architecture at the same time. I think it's just amazingly illuminating to have the historical and architectural perspective that you and your colleagues, Ann and Carly that you all have brought to our understanding of this building and to the original concept of the library in the beginning. And it's just really amazing to think about what is unique about it and of that uniqueness, how much survives. I can honestly say, I can't cite another example of an institutional civic building similar to this here in the Connecticut River Valley. I mean, it's a really unique piece of architecture. It's a continuation of the tradition here in the Valley. That's the way I look at it. Yeah, that's just really astonishing, just really wonderful to understand so much more about it. So I think from here, I'd like to offer Ann and Carly an opportunity to make any comments you'd like to make. Then I think we could take about, I don't know, five, 10 minutes for questions from or comments, questions or comments from library trustees and members of the Historical Commission. And then there can be a similar period of public comment. So Ann and Carly, is there anything you'd like to add at this point? I think, you know, I don't have anything else to add other than how much I appreciate the team and just a pleasure and such a learning experience and all of you who helped with this, it's a pretty short process, but short and intense. So thank you all and thanks again for the opportunity. Okay, thank you. Let's see, Austin or Sharon, are there things that you'd like to comment on at this point? Absolutely. So first of all, I'm incredibly grateful. I've been in that building, I don't know, dozens of times. I've led tours of the building. I've gotten lost and wandered for hours trying to figure out which stairway to take. I've searched in vain for a usable restroom. And I thought I knew the building, but seeing it through your eyes, I realized there's so much in that building that I had never seen and never appreciated. So for that and for the consolation of the next time I'm lost in the building, I will have a greater appreciation of the building in which I'm lost. I'm incredibly grateful. I'm gonna say back to you what I've heard you say. This building is a treasure. And the 1928 building, despite somewhere here and there, and I loved your thing about the absence of color, the 1928 building has been well curated and well cared for. And that's a remarkable tribute to directors of the library, boards of the trustees of the library and the staff of the library for generations. So it's a gift to all of us that this building has been handed down from generation to generation and cared for in the way it has been so that you can say in 2021, this building is in really good condition. The other thing I wanted to say that I, which I've heard what that I heard you say, and by the way, I appreciate the recommendations. The Jones library went through an extensive vetting of architects when we contemplated years ago, the renovation in addition to the building. One of the standards that guided our choice was we wanted to firm with a record of historical preservation that we could be certain, of which we could be certain. And we looked carefully and we finally chose Fine Gold Alexander. In that firm, we thought then, and hearing your presentation, I think yet again of what a wise choice that is. Because you've offered us a vision, not just about, and I loved your recommendation about a set of standards that the trustees should adopt. Your recommendations really gave me confidence that we have the right architects who will, I loved what you said, who will, this was kind of, that was kind of architect talk, who will listen to the building. I love the idea where architects talk about how buildings speak to you. So for the wonderful way of re-seeing the library that you've offered us, for the gratitude that you've inspired to generations of trustees and library directors that have cared for this building and for the confidence that you've given me in our choice of architects to work on this gem of a building, I'm very grateful. Thank you very much. Your words mean quite a bit, they do. It's, when you say you get lost in a building, the best way to experience buildings are to get lost in buildings. And find your way through. I went to school in a large country house in England for a period of time and the best way to sort of get to know that building was just to wander it and find the spaces you would not find otherwise by just coming across them. And the library is very similar to that because it gets its character from being inspired by a large residence. If it was this, quote unquote, that's a classical inspired building, there would be this rigid symmetry imposed upon its plan and its elevation. And it would be almost just naturally understood. But these little spaces up on the third floor, these rooms up above the wings of the building are very intimate and very inviting. And really, I mean, it's a very unique building, it's a very personal building. I'm sure when Alan Cox designed it, that was on his mind. And again, I'll say it again, there's no other building quite like it in this immediate region. Absolutely. Sorry, I'm going to, let's see. I saw Sharon and then I think maybe Catherine had something she'd like to say. So Sharon first, then Catherine. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, just so just quickly, Eric, that was awesome. I had a blast meeting with you guys and I didn't get to spend a lot of time with you. Cindy and George did all the heavy lifting and then you of course, but this presentation, so here I was expecting like a 10 minute and what you just gave us was amazing. So thank you so much and your passion absolutely shines through and that's fabulous. I could sit here another hour and listen to you. And so when I give tours in the future, I will be able to use many of your nuggets of information in those tours. So thank you again. I want to piggyback on what Austin was saying. I have to remember that here I am in a historic commission meeting, a joint meeting, which is very different from my focus, which is trying to run a 21st century public library, the 22nd busiest public library in the state of Massachusetts. So we've come a long way from this sweet beautiful building small town library building that was built in 1928 where the residents used it to now a building that serves so many people from up and down the valley and across the state. And so finding that happy medium with our incredible architects, find Gold Alexander, between, I'm sorry, Eric, I love you, but getting lost in the public library is not great for Patreon, so we don't want that. So in having those small rooms, again, it's not helpful for a 21st century public library, but having the information that you've just presented us will allow us to make those informed decisions and end up with a better result. So thank you again. You're welcome. Yeah, one thing I failed to mention, I really should have, when the library was first open, and I'm sure you know this, right? To call it a library is not doing it justice. It really is a community building. It was when it was first opened, it housed collections from the historical society in it, right? There are community activities that took place in the basement and elsewhere. And that's just continued through time and probably more so now than ever. So by calling it a library, it's much more than that. It, you know, and where was I going with my thoughts on this one, it's, you know, as it relates to dealing with a 1927 building in 2022, and I don't know if you've done this already or not, but you know, all I say is, is you're not the only communities that are dealing with, you know, deal with an iconic historic building that need to build it out and expand. And I, you know, I just, I throw out the names like H.H. Richardson, you know, and the Ains Library out northeastern, and well, another Richardson building was in Quincy and Wuburn, you know. These are magnificent pieces of architecture. They're not museums. They need to grow and be dynamic and be interesting. And so other people have wrestled with these ideas. And the, you know, and all I say to you is, take the best of those ideas and run with them and find out what doesn't work and, you know, and avoid those. So. Yeah, you know, I'm going to actually take advantage of my, my position as moderator here, to throw in a little historical tidbit, which is that when the current town hall was built in the 1880s after a fire that destroyed the previous building on Palmer Block, one of the features of the new building, the new town hall was a performance space, an auditorium and performance space in that building, which apparently was not adequate 40 years later because the Jones Library then incorporated a new auditorium and stage and performance space. So communities, communities have a way of changing. You know. So, Katherine, I think you had your, you were. I did, yes. Thank you, Jane. I'm actually, my comments a little delayed. First, I'll just say, thank you so much for the wonderful presentation, but I actually raised my hand at the time because I noticed that Carly had raised her hand to speak, but I don't think she was noticed. So I wanted to make sure that we gave her the time to go back and be able to have a comment. Okay, thank you. I'm so sorry, Carly, I didn't see your hand. So, Carly, welcome. Carly has been an integral and important member of the team working on this historic structure report. So please, Carly. Oh, it's just really quick. I just wanted to thank you all for letting me take part in this, I learned a lot. So thank you for everything. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you. Okay, then let's see. We have just a few minutes left. If there are any questions or comments by members of the historical commission, this is a good opportunity to raise your hand. And any other comments or questions by library trustees before we open a little period of public comment. All right, then. Okay, so now I'm gonna just open a brief period of public comment. If any members of the audience in attendance have comments, then we'll have a, you can have up to two minutes to make a comment. Please be concise. And if your comment invites a response, then I'll invite the responders to be similarly concise. Okay, so I see Sarah McKee has a hand raised. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you. Oh, great, thank you. Thank you for this marvelous presentation. I too thought that I knew the library building and I see more in it that eluded me for years. I would like to give credit to the historical preservation architect in the 1993 project, Alan Heil, who was specifically retained in order, as I understand, in order to make sure that the woodwork was properly taken care of. So I think I've heard in some of your comments, commendation of some of his work. I have a concern in that the Amity Street facade, now I see more in it than I ever saw before. And there is, the trustees have a 1990, 2017, sorry, lost a decade, historic preservation agreement for the Amity Street facade based on $140,000 in CPA funds for preservation of the chimneys and all. And it appears to me that there might have to be some modifications to the demolition and ex-demolition expansion plans in order to comply with that 2017 historic preservation agreement. So I would ask whether the trustees, this is not for a question now, but ask whether the trustees are looking at that. Thank you. The purpose of this meeting is to hear and receive and learn about the historic structure report. So I don't, I appreciate the question and I think it can be answered in another venue. I would agree, thank you. Thank you, okay. All right, are there other members of the public who would like to make a comment on the presentation we've seen tonight? Then I'm just going to express as enthusiastic appreciation for the work of Anne Marshall, Eric Godoya and Carly Regalato for just a really fabulous contribution to our understanding of our town's architectural history and cultural history. This is some work that is going to live on as a way for us to understand what this library has meant these hundred years. I mean, I think back to the origin of the library that Samuel Jones had no heirs, had a fortune and wanted to use it for the benefit of the town. And that's just an extraordinary legacy that he left and one that I don't know if he could have imagined the impact of that legacy. So it's a tremendous comment on the community of Amherst as it has existed in the past and in the present and will be in the future. So I believe, Austin, there may be some comments you'd like to make and also. I just wanted to, before we end and before I get my warm milk and cookies, I wanted to thank you especially for the foresight, the genius to suggest that we go through this exercise. I have to say at the beginning, I thought, Jane Wald, what kind of idea is that? And I now think Jane Wald, that was a great idea. So thank you very, very much. Thank you, Austin. I'm just gonna giggle about that all night. All right, Austin, do you need to close the adjourn? So is there a library trustees, a motion to adjourn? So moved. Thank you, Tammy. Is there a second? Second. So I think I need to ask for a vocal vote on the motion to adjourn. Bob Pam. Yes. Alex. Yes. Farah. Yes. Tammy. Yes. Lee Edwards, Austin Sarad votes and cast Lee Edwards proxy. So the library board of trustees is adjourned. Okay, thank you all so much. It's been a real pleasure and delight to spend this time this evening with you and to learn so much more about the history of the Jones Library. Once again, thanks to Anne and Eric and Carly and in particular, Cindy Harbison, who has been such a tremendous resource for this project. So thank you all. The historical commission will continue its meeting and those who wish to stay may stay. Those who have had enough of this can. Thank you very much. Turn to your evening. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks all. Okay, so we have left on our agenda the preservation plan RFP November 17th and October 20th meeting minutes. And it is 906. Please tell me what your pleasure is for the remainder of this evening. Approved. I didn't suffer. I move that we do our minutes from the last meeting and then, Jern. Here, here. I have a question. Do we have a need for another short meeting to go over the plan or just put it off for next month? And what would you like to do? Because it is an RFP, there may be some time sensitivity about it. Do you have a sense of? Oh, no, I mean, I haven't released the RFP yet. It's, this is just to kind of develop the draft and language. So there's not really a time constraint other than it's time to update the preservation plan. But if it takes another month or two, that's totally fine. I think that's wording to look over. I, it's in the packet, but. Oh, okay. It is in the one that's online. Yeah. Yeah. Who do I miss that? Yeah, so Ben, I've got, I'm going to send you kind of a, I don't know, sort of track changes thing that might have some questions and comments and edits. And I'll do that. So you've got it well before our next meeting. Okay. Oh, I have, I'm sorry. I have one other question. How, because I think this is time sensitive for the developer, how do we go ahead with making sure that report is filed, you know, in a pretty timely manner, because it matters to him financially as well. So what do we do? I'm new. So I don't know what the process is. So yeah, I too have a few questions about that. And one is, so maybe we can just kind of assemble our questions first and then, and discuss. So one question is, does, can we submit to the Macros database a form B for a structure that's going to be demolished? Again, okay. I think there's submissions that are made even after. Okay. So it means demolition. That's reassuring. Thank you. Thank you. Then, so what are the, kind of what are the, they're kind of the basics of a form B. So that's, I think we just need to decide who is going to pull that information together. Here's the template that they have. Oh, good. So, you know, photograph, locust map, you know, some basic information. And then down here, it's, you know, architectural description and narrative. And you know, I've seen as little as like just one sentence scribbled, like by hand, like a lot of the inventory forms and amours were done in 1977, so they're done by hand. But then some of the ones done more recently by PVTC, you know, have a, you know, solid block of, you know, maybe seven to 10 sentences explaining the description and narrative. So. Okay. So Ben is, you know, of course, an obvious question is how much of this are you able to do and at what point do we need to shift it to either PVTC or members of the commission? Can you, can you give a sense of what your capacity is? I imagine I should be able to do this pretty quickly. If there's other, there's people that are better versed in architectural lingo than I am. If someone else wanted to take a stab at the, you know, describing the features, I would definitely invite that. I can take a stab at it, but. Okay, that would be great. So maybe we, okay. So then there's the piece about the context and the, the, kind of historical significance of this type of architecture. So is that something that would best be handled by at least make some member of the commission making a, a beginning at that, making a stab at that? I mean, someone, I mean, if one among us has, and I'm thinking maybe, Jen or Heddy or Catherine has some kind of understanding of how to figure this out. Either to give us some guidance on it or to just kind of dig into it, scratch the surface a bit on it. Is that something that is, would be useful to you, Ben? Yeah. I mean, certainly it would be helpful to have maybe like a point person just to bounce some ideas off of. Ben, I'd be happy to do that in conjunction with you working on it and just talking to me and my suggesting wording and stuff. I'm just, I'm deep in writing lectures for this semester so I'm feeling really overwhelmed. Yeah, yeah. But I'd be happy to particularly help with the context. I went online while we were talking and found all sorts of examples of buildings like that. Yes. In that period. So obviously we're not gonna attach those photos but we can describe the general form based upon looking at more than just that one. And they're from the late 60s through the early 70s. So even the materials would be part of describing the building, but the kind of disparaging remarks that Kyle was making are actually the elements that make up these, this type. Yeah, exactly. It was a way of saving money and simplifying form. So anyway, I'd be happy to work with you but if you get started and then maybe we can do it by phone so it's not so much sitting at the computer because I just spend 12 hours a day at it and it's killing me. Yeah. Okay. Is there any, so I hope, kind of hate to ask directly but is there any backup that maybe Catherine or Heddy? Yeah, I was actually gonna say something, Jane. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, Heddy. I am in a similar boat as, you know, Jan rather is that I am so overwhelmed I'm also on Zoom like nine, 10 hours a day. So I am certainly able to be a backup or work in conjunction as a team. And that might be the best way that I can offer help. I'm just, I wanna be cautious of the fact that I don't overbook myself so early in the year and then not be able to follow through on it. So that's just my consideration. I don't wanna let anyone down. Okay. Jane, I'm happy to help. I have some time between now and the beginning of term. Okay. Oh, fantastic. Thanks, Heddy. One beginning. So if you have some time. I stopped teaching architectural history. Well, I guess my, I mean, this is like way outside my area but I guess my only little tiny bit of advice is don't go too far down the rabbit hole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Short and sweet. Less is more. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. I wanna make our case a little bit about the fact that it is valuable. I think. Just starting to come into the state probably from this era. We need to justify why we're doing it and sort of set a precedent. It seems. Yeah. Right. Okay. That sounds great. Thank you all so much for that. I think, you know, this. This team, this is a great team. And, you know, you can lighten the load for each other, but also come out with a, a terrific product. Oh, and make sure that you make Kyle do some work for the this. Yeah. He's going to do all the photographs, right? He was willing to fill out the form during the meeting. And then it kind of got taken away from them. So. It's just. Let me do it. Yeah. Okay. Great. Thank you all so much for that. I think it's a. It kind of sets an important precedent in a way, you know, to, to. To convey the seriousness with which we consider. Structures that are really just 50 years old. So that we don't. Lose their significance when they become 80 years old or 100 years. Well, and that's why I was being such a pill in the meeting because I knew we were going to end up saying they could demolish it, but I wanted to make sure that. There was a process we went through. Yeah. For us. The town and for archipelago that. It's not that easy. These, these aren't just. You know, I mean, knowing they're going to take it down. And I want them to think a little more and know that we're thinking. Yes. Agreed. And doing the form B and filing it. We'll, we'll certainly document. The existence of the building in its context as well. So thank you. On the team here who are going to do that. And remember that we have to remember when we go into these hearings that voting that something is historically significant does not mean we're necessarily granting immediate permission for demolition. It also doesn't mean that we're immediately denying it. It's just part of the process. And sometimes we can take a stand by saying, yes, it's significant and still grant the demolition. And we tend to forget that we're shy. Of saying any of those criteria stick. You know, but if they do, they do. Yeah. You know, I think I made an error. When I asked. For a motion without. Suggesting that. The motion could be to continue the hearing. And, you know, I know we had talked about that previously and it just kind of evaporated for me in the moment. So. So I didn't really need to spend more time, I think, because I think they came up with a good solution. You know, it just would have been yet again. And Kyle would have probably had a heart attack, but. Which is fine. He's getting paid for it. But. Nope. You know, I mean, we could have dragged it out, but really. We went over what the issues were. And ultimately we made our point. And now we're, we're going to get something from it. The building was going to come down. Even if we put a delay in a year, it would have come down. Yeah. You know, I think what's one thing that's important to the documentation of this is the original plan for the suite of buildings in that location. That's a good point. Yeah. How do you think you think UMass would have. Yeah. I was just thinking that. I think if we. You know, I'll probably give the people in special collections a call. I haven't dealt with them at UMass, but I used to deal with them at UNH a lot because I was teaching using those kinds of. Resources and, you know, I think I'll just make some phone calls and maybe go to the library directly. But I also am very taken by what Jane just said about not going too far down the rabbit hole, but a good, a good form B with a proper set of photographs. You know, we've done, we've done what we can. I'm sure some kind of document exists with the whole kind of village of Greek life, you know, it wasn't the only location. There was another one on. Pleasant Street as well. And then a number of buildings burnt down. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a, you know, if we just have like a street plan showing where the plots were for this and then maybe a photograph of the first few buildings that went up to show this wasn't the only one that looked like that. I mean, there are three. Yeah. Yeah. I think we, I think it's really important that we see if we can find pictures of the building that. Archipelago already demolished. You know, because there were three, there are three. Doesn't look original anymore. They've done things to it. So it'd be nice if we had the other one probably was still original because it hadn't been modified by the university. I assume. Yeah. I've, I've asked about the architect. You know, the, the, the colonial revival II building when I was at Capricapa Gamma on Nothing Avenue. Had a named architect and they frequently would use their national affiliates to, to kind of provide architectural services. So it's very possible that there's some kind of national headquarters architect or company that would have that could have provided. The designs. You know, it's a very, it's a very purposeful building in a very simple way. And I was really shocked that he had really no documentation for it being in poor condition. I think it's just that. Yeah. I know. I know. But, you know, in terms of housing and. Single people in. Amherst, you know, you couldn't, you could very easily doubles advocate. You could very easily make a case saying, oh, let's take a look at this. And maybe there are some modifications we can make that would house 80 people, you know, Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, I, it's, it's just, it's just, it's just Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's neither here nor there to a certain, to a certain extent, but I'm very happy to do my, throw my two cents worth into some actual research. If you could do that point of it, that would be awesome. Yeah. That's fantastic. Thanks so much. Well, yeah. Shall we take up our minutes? If I move, we accept them. They looked fine to me. Catherine. Yes. That's not a, that's not a question. That's me like, imaginary like scooping food into my mouth. So. They're a second. All in favor say. Hi. Hi. And Hedy, you're an I also. Yes. Okay. All right. Unanimous. Minutes accepted. Let's see. I see that there are at least a couple of, a couple of attendees other than panelists still with us. So we'll, we will offer public comment. And then we will, we can confirm our next meeting date in a journey. Are there any members of the public who wish to make a public comment? Seeing none. Shall we confirm a next meeting date? Yeah, maybe helpful to do the next two dates. Just to have those on the calendar. Okay. All right. Did, did we already. We already had a February date, I think, right? I don't see one. Okay. February, February 9th. Oh, nevermind. That's just a recurring thing. Yeah, we didn't, I don't think we picked one. Yeah. Let's see. This is the. So then the ninth or the 16th would be the next logical dates. I'm, I think I'm fine with either one. Yeah, your work. We don't go too late. Yeah, I'm fine with either one. Me too. Yeah. So why don't we say the ninth? And I think that'll sort of keep. Keep our general sequence and then. Oh, let's see. It was going to be. I think the third Wednesday, was that something that worked for you, Pat? Yes. Okay. Okay. So that is. The 20. One, two. Oh, that's the 16th. The 16th. Right. So we're not doing the ninth. We're doing the 16th. Ninth of February. Okay. The second Wednesday. Good point. Y'all. Where Wednesday. Yeah. All right. Sounds good to me. All right. Okay. Third Wednesday of February is the 16th. Okay. March. Yeah. Yeah. All right. February 16th. March 16th. Okay. Meeting on the 16th every time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to speak of reflow and that's meant to do is. The. Planning board. I know I keep on saying this, but I think the planning board might consider taking up the demolition delay by law. Yeah. Yeah. I'm hopeful this time where we have a new, new town council, it's a new zoning priorities and demolition delays, definitely a top, top priority this time around. All right. So if we've got to jump on it before all the other priorities. Take over, but. I feel like there's definitely internal to town staff, you know, Chris, Nate and I all feel like it's, it's, it's packaged up ready to go. And we just need to. Right. They also meet on Wednesday nights. I think Chris had mentioned possibly February 2nd. Could be a date where they look at. Some bylaw language. All right. Hey, Ben, how often do they meet? Is it once, once a month, once every couple of weeks? I think they sometimes meet like every two to three weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just good to have in mind. Yeah. Okay. Well, uh, thank you all for, uh, an action packed meeting. Yeah. Eric's great. Isn't he? I took a course last year and. It's so entertaining. He has so much information. I know I kind of want to take that class. Yeah. I've been working with Eric since 2004. Yeah, I've worked with him pretty steadily since then. At the Emily Dickinson museum. And he's just, he is. Fantastic. Yeah. The vernacular early American architecture course comes up again. Any of you who have a chance to take it, it's. I think it's like four lectures at two hours a shot. It's not bad. You know, it's not like a whole semester. It's really worth it. You see Amherst differently. I do. Yeah, it was excellent, Jen. Absolutely excellent. Yeah. Well, um, someone, I don't know who, but someone needs to make a motion to adjourn. I know that we can. Thank you. There's. He said. Yay. Everybody. Everybody. Everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Second. Second. Not debatable. All right. Everybody. Thank you. Take care. All right. Take care. Happy new year. Happy new year. Happy new year.