 Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for stopping by. My name is Mandy Drury. I'm an anchor with CNBC It's actually a really important topic that we're going to be discussing this evening So I am very very glad that you have come here And of course there will be time for your questions as well. We'll make sure we get them to our panelists so let me just put the The topic into context here because I think that actually reporting on sustainability has been something that Gosh it's been done for decades, but it's often been done on a voluntary basis. That is all changing now, isn't it? It's now not just a nice to do. It's a must-do. Essentially capital markets are integrating these mandatory sustainability disclosures With the premise as well that hopefully it's good for maximising company returns But as we all know we all operate businesses. We all operate within businesses. It's a real trade-off, isn't it? It's sort of on one side You've got to balance the the good sustainable practice and all the Ownerists reporting that goes along with that on the other side You need to make sure that you can also maximise financial performance. So how do we make it count? That's the topic we're talking about today It's how can we move beyond the burden of proof of reporting and provide more capacity for concrete Sustainable outcomes and we've got a really fantastic Line-up of people here to talk about it. In fact some of the best minds on the subject Let me introduce them to you. We have here sitting at the end there Emmanuel Faber who thank goodness came along We thought for a second there that he was not going to join us just in the nick of time He's the chair International Sustainability Standards Board IFRS. We also have Joining us this evening Bonnie Chan Yeating the C00 and incoming CEO of the Hong Kong Exchanges and Clearing so thank you very much for your time as well. We have Peter Reinhardt who is the co-founder and CEO of Charm Industrial USA and Sitting next to me here come on to CBO the global chairman and CEO EY International Business Council and EY also was involved in developing the new standards with the ISSP so thank you very much all of you for joining us and as I mentioned I will open it to the audience So be ready with your questions. You can also follow along on social media and use the hashtag with 24 So let me get straight to it. Come on. First of all, let me get to you Why is it so important to have a globally unified voice here of the private sector to make sure that there is a consistent Global system for sustainability disclosures and how would you rate the progress so far? Okay, so so let me try to level set this topic because we obviously don't have a global unified voice the whole issue is fragmented but but You know, it's incredibly important that we understand where we are and where we're trying to get to and I'll get to the ISSP We're sure obviously with a man while here So, you know Like financial reporting in general and accounting standards, you know There's basically two or three accounting standards that float around today Including IFRS and US cap And so we started down the line of trying to we meaning the big four Trying to work with standard setters to be as consistent as possible What we did do working with the International Business Council Under the leadership of Brian Moynihan The big four and Brian Moynihan came up with at the time general ESG metrics And this spanned four different categories climate was one of them and we wanted to do this and this is on a voluntary basis We said if we can get big companies companies that are part of the International Business Council to voluntarily Disclose these metrics, you know, then that would be a start and it would be a start to get the whole world unified in terms of Consistency on some of these metrics. So we did do that. We all work together the big four We usually are competing with one another work together. We all had a different Part of the project we worked with Brian and then we did get and we're up to over 200 companies that committed to these Disclosures so we felt that that was a great start and it was thanks to the International Business Council and the World Economic Forum To to try to drive some consistency as the standard setters got into this more As we went along What became clear early on was that the the EU was a bit ahead And moving faster certainly than the SEC but what we really all the big four where we were really supportive of is the ISSP and We're a big thanks to a lot of well for everything is doing there Because we thought that that would be the building blocks and the standards that that countries would adopt and Regulators would adopt around the world and really use those so we would have some kind of consistency That has worked, okay standards are coming, but the EU moved further ahead and the SEC Still doesn't have any standards and so what we thought we can be more consistent on I think a lot of our clients for example are not happy in terms of the consistency, but They are in favor of the ISSP and the standards that have been developed in the ISSP the the conceptually, you know Some of this has to come together and we're hoping that even the SEC when when they do come out with standards are more consistent with The ISSP inconsistent with the EU, but that's still to come So let's get to a manual then on what the ISSP is doing on this front because you've essentially brought together What we call the alphabet soup of various standards and you've released last year Two standards one for general reporting on sustainability one for climate which actually the Australian government has taken up Do you feel that you've made excellent progress in trying to set that global baseline? For market regulators and also companies to be able to adopt Well, thank you Doree. I think we made good progress. I wouldn't say excellent the The speed at which and the momentum and the process through which those Standards were built. I think was quite unparalleled And you know, we delivered in about 18 months Including a very very important topic for us, which was the endorsement by IOSCO the international organization of securities commissions the the whole board of IOSCO Found that our standards are fit for purpose and IOSCO is a membership organization that covers 135 different jurisdictions in the world covering 95% of Of the market capitalization the last time they had and or standards was 20 years ago for the IFR standards So it's it's it's really a super important step that was covered last last summer Our standards are now effective January 1st this year. So any company in the regulator can use them. We are now engaging with Probably 20 jurisdictions really really really deep into the assessment of the standards They represent roughly 50% of the global greenhouse gas emissions So I'd say it's a pretty good start for standards that are just at the very very early part of the life That includes some of them that I can mention because they mentioned You know, so the UK mentioned they would use our standards very early on The the the Japan Regulators said by 25, they will be mandatory based on S1 and S2 They are going to consult later this year about it Korea is still going into the question of their calendar, but that said Hong Kong of course and thanks to Bonnie and her colleagues You know are there with climate very soon. She will probably speak about this later Singapore said 25 Malaysia is consulting Taiwan is on as well Brazil said mandatory by 26 permitted next year mandatory by 26 Turkey said 24 Nigeria Ghana others. We're you know, so these large countries are there And we are now interoperable with Europe Which of course is not the ideal world in which we would have liked to be but it means that ISSB can be a passport for international preparers into the European system and you can also export the European system into the ISSB with a navigation tool, which is currently finalized jointly with With EU so that's where we are which is really that's the launch phase And I think the momentum needs to be maintained in order to ensure that we Do not come from a situation where the alphabet soup you mentioned was Basically voluntary to what could be a mandatory Regulatory alphabet soup if we do not succeed in establishing that global baseline that come in was talking about okay So still a lot of work to be you set us on the path and you're also working against Jurisdictional fragmentation as well may I ask though is there still a schism in the reporting world in the sense that sort of the ISSB is focused on single materiality Whereas the EU is still focused on Path of double materiality so financial value value creation plus focusing on other things like you know doing good for Society is that something that you see as a problem? No, I don't think so I mean we're really of the view that you can actually do both in the condition you do it clearly Which is we establish a global baseline which is entirely on investor materiality Yes, which is going to drive the banking system the financing system the capital markets And by the way the Basel committee is working with our standards now for the future work the international public sector Accounting some of those is working with our standards So they are going to be systemic rich and but it's they're totally made for jurisdictions to add whatever else They want to add as building blocks above that global baseline So the case of Europe is specific because they started before we existed They couldn't have taken care of us because they started and hence this very peculiar agreement of interoperability Is that that just described which I think is something and has to be of the past Because the next stage is really to have that global baseline and everybody that want to go beyond that can of course do this on the global baseline so trying to provide clarity for the capital markets, which brings me to you then Bonnie because the HKEX is essentially a Regulator as well as well as an exchange. So how would you benefit from a globally unified system? Yeah, I think absolutely the global baseline that Emmanuel just Mention is it's very important. So in the case of HKEX, we have multiple roles. We are listed company ourselves, right? So we have our own corporate sustainability journey but on top of it we are an exchange operator and a Market regulator and I think for the purpose of this conversation our role as a market regulator It's it's the most relevant. So the journey actually started 10 years ago 2013, right? We have 2600 companies listed on our exchange. So The mission is to bring all of them on the journey For the climate disclosure It has to start 10 years ago because you know, you cannot really just just do it and you know sort of one full sweep You have to sort of bring them on to the journey and by the way when we started that wasn't the global baseline No, it's still being developed. You know as Carmine and Emmanuel Mention so what we started was a humble step. We started with saying okay all companies listed on our exchange You need to now think about ESG in general terms and then a few years later We sort of make another step and say okay now It's mandatory to have an ESG report on an annual basis, you know where you talk about general stuff and it's ESG It's not climate specific yet Then TCFD framework, you know came came along and we embed it, you know in the ESG report reporting framework and And Eventually after 10 years we reach a point where we felt, you know as the global baseline has emerged We felt brave enough to consult on making climate disclosure mandatory so our consultation Public consultation paper came out in April 2023 it was difficult, you know, I have to admit it because you know with the 2600 companies there are big ones, you know very well resource They probably already have in-house experts who can help them navigate, you know the alphabet soup, all right But you have small-cap companies and they're like okay, all right, you know Why am I doing it right and you do a lot of market education explaining why this is important and Investors are going to demand it anyways, you know, and if you do not have the climate disclosure Then eventually people, you know, I mean fund managers cannot deploy capital and you're going to lose out right so a very long phase of Education then eventually they they they got to a point of acceptance. Okay, we have to do it Many of them still see it as compliance cost rather than you know something which will give them sort of positive benefits And then they come to us and say well look, but you know, even if I'm willing to spend the money, right? What where do I find the? Consultants and the advisors who are going to help me on this journey, right? I think you raise an absolutely excellent point because essentially you've got these companies who now have to have if not an Internal team of people with a whole new set of skills to be able to do the reporting the auditing the risk strategy the business strategy To be able to do the reporting and you also at the same time as a company have to be actually Transitioning to be able to have something to report. It's going to be a bonanza for external auditors and accountants like you come I mean Do you have the at EY and the big four? Do you have the capacity and capability amongst your people to be able to do all of this right? So so obviously it's an issue and we would like to have more capacity So what we've been doing and the other big four have been doing we've actually been working with universities around the world And making sure that they embed some of this training in the universities So a lot of accounting majors in universities today. They they they are being taught and this is just starting You know carbon they're being taught how to account for carbon what it means the science behind it all that We actually think it's it's a way to revitalize a lot of the accounting Schools because because young people are really interested in the subject So I personally have been involved with a few schools in the US on making sure that they're changing their accounting program to include carbon to include sustainability reporting Carbon pricing which we can get into so so some of them have been very proactive and have actually put Put these classes in place. So obviously we're hiring more people with those skill sets And we're obviously training our own people with all that being said there's a scarcity of resources It's a new topic But yes, it is and this is where we get caught in a tough spot because because some our clients would say see this is big business for you You wanted it to be more complicated, you know, it's over. We really don't I mean we wanted to keep and they all know We wanted to keep this and try to make it as simple as possible But unfortunately, we're not there. Well, let me come to you Peter Because companies are coming to you to be able to manage their carbon explain exactly what that means and how this all dovetails Into the sustainability theme and I come at this from a very different perspective and I'm an operator who sells carbon removal to large corporations who are trying to mitigate their their missions and get to a net zero Place and you know, I think we really sell to the companies who are at the sort of cutting edge primarily in the United States They have large ESG reports. They have done a huge amount of work on reductions and now they're getting around to Driving driving some reductions and so I guess I view this from a very different perspective Which is a set of companies who already have maybe not standardized but have effective climate disclosures and where we are trying to operate is at a much more detailed level of How do we actually physically account in a very detailed way for the carbon that we're putting underground and the questions Just to give one example the questions get very weedy very fast as they do in the Financial accounting world for example, if you have a truck that goes from point A to point B How much emission how much was emitted you can estimate that based on the truck? But did you have to also account for the truck positioning to point A? What about positioning from point B to the next read and that's all things that are Require some sort of philosophy and counting philosophy for how you address and Generally speaking are not available from the suppliers downstream and so there's lots of challenges in actually implementing These things and the level of detail required I think to actually go implement that level of detailed tracking is it's quite challenging to come by and so what happens in practice is At least in these you know jurisdictions that don't yet have have a standard is People just look at their spend they categorize the spend and they have an estimate on that spend and it and it spits out a number Incredible and I believe that you've also launched sort of a I think in your words a painfully rigorous accounting protocols We have to measure all of this does that at all jibe with what is going on with the ISSP standards Or is this once again sort of different accounting standards that we're looking at another alphabet soup? Maybe I should explain what we do so we do we take carbon dioxide into plants We turn the plants into barbecue sauce and then we inject the barbecue sauce and old oil and gas wells And this is a carbon removal pathway is Our goal is to basically set the high watermark for what good measurement reporting verification trust and transparency looks like that's what our customers want is the highest quality and Yeah, that requires going going very in the weeds We partnered with a new registry named isometric That has a fundamentally different incentive, which I think is very important and we just rolled out like a 50 or 60 page Accounting protocol for how we're gonna how we're gonna measure this And after this year will be verified I Think it's it's iso compliant, but I actually have no idea if it's compliant with ISSP. So we'll have to we'll have to look into that I Think one of the most interesting things historically is if you look at where people have been doing a lot of carbon accounting run offsets or removals is The auditors that were effectively stamping Those things had a really messed up incentive Which is why I think you've seen such huge problems in the offset market over the last few years Scandal after scandal after scandal and in the press Which is they were effectively only paid when a carbon credit got sold Which means like imagine if EY only got paid when they gave a green stamp to a financial audit Don't be crazy. Hmm. That's how it worked And so we really need like a fundamentally different incentive system in the registries that provide the stamp and the auditors there to also clean up and ensure that There aren't shady things happening that are going into these disclosures. Absolutely. It's incredibly exciting innovation So let me get to you then Emanuel and going back to something that Bonnie said about the the capacity and Capability of companies to be able to absorb these new standards when you were developing them Did you have that in mind of you know, okay? Here I am developing them and they're great and it's it's wonderful to be able to set a baseline But is it going to be able to be actually implemented by companies and regulators around the world? Yeah, well It's a super critical question. Of course. The answer is yes There are some building things that I can very briefly share about the independent board that we are 14 members from Asia Africa American continent Europe We are full-time Independent for three four and five years mandate staggered. So we are full-time people The people that are around the table comes from black rock Kkr CalPERS GPIF which is the government of Japan largest asset in the world investing for a hundred years as mandate on the other side The chair and CUNCFO of Danone for 20 years signing accounts preparing accounts Actually preparing on scope 3 for 15 years Releasing an EPS adjusted carbon adjusted which was saluted by Dr. Persson the CEO of S&P when we did that. So do I know that it can be done? I think the answer is yes the chief business performance of Siemens the CEO of Metro the CEO and chief sustainability officer of Dan Gote multinational company 40 different countries in Africa So these are the people with the best standard setting people of the IFRS Foundation a few academics the vice president and Treasurer of the World Bank as a coach as a vice chair next to the vice chair of the IFRS Foundation's ISB board that joined me as the vice chair the Sioux Lloyd These are the group of people that work in that so and then we get everything Checked by come in and his colleagues before they went final to ensure that all the words were assurable That the they could do their work. So Yes, the second part of the yes is we've embedded Reliefs in the standards themselves scalability proportionality Reasonable and supportable information No undue cost or efforts You need to be in compliance with and in accordance with the capacities of the company and the the The exposure to the risk that you have all sort of these information the way the way we we did it and The last thing I'd say no pre last thing is We we need to come to this point that some of us were talking about and come and alluded to the fact that We need to update accounting 80% of the entries in accounting are estimates. Am I correct? Am I wrong 70%? Yeah, estimates. I mean I've closed accounts of the multinational companies every year They're never closed on the 31st of December. This is not true We have pre-closies and we've got process of adjustments and post-closings and all sort of things estimates 80% of the balance sheets of large companies are intangible today where they project the value of the value of their acquisitions To the perpetuity growth of the cash flows and so I'm simply saying we need to Learn that new language and that's not going to be easy But we need to create a safe place where people can start Speaking the language and the sooner we speak that language the better will become added and obviously it will become more and more Decision useful over time. I love this topic about the fact that we're just sort of like pulling some numbers from air It's inherently uncertain how climate change will affect a business So from an accounting point of view, I mean the burden of proof is high, but the uncertainty is also high Is there a legal liability in this? Well, there's there's gonna be a legal liability almost on every estimate, you know At some level but but here's I think what a manual is talking about is the concept of quote putting carbon on the balance sheet So the adjusted EPS is a way to do that, but it's not so what we've been talking about is disclosure But the concept that we've been talking more about now more recently is is literally putting carbon on the balance sheet Meaning that carbon credits would be an asset and and your emissions is a liability Then you'd be able to tell where the companies are serious about where what they're doing and this would help your business a great deal But this is you know from our standpoint it becomes risky because unless there's better carbon pricing You know this becomes only a real a really difficult estimate and so there would be liability with things like that and you know There has to be some standards in some ways of counting this but to me the more we can get the carbon pricing and We were talking earlier Some people have internal carbon pricing and so forth and that they're knowing you probably had some something like that But but the more we can make that standard and the more we I I agree with if we can get that on the balance sheet That would that would change a lot. Yeah, so Bonnie. How are you at the Hong Kong exchange? Tackling your own sustainability reporting forget the the listed companies for a second What about your own sustainability very difficult for me to forget? I mean is this something that you put with the the risk and audit committee or is it moved into the C suite? Oh, it has definitely, you know moved into the C suite and the board, right? It's it's a standing item. I would say we talk about it a lot and and you know, we make a pledge that we will be Carbon neutral by next year 2025. I need to be careful of the year. We just change into 2024 And I think the direction of travel for us. It's, you know, very clear and like I said, right? We wear multiple hats. We have to set an example and be a role model You know if we're going to sort of reach, you know the climate disclosure and all this to our listed companies So very much, you know focused on it, I would say our commitment to sustainability. It's very firm But but there's something that, you know, Emmanuel Mention, which I wanted to react to if it's okay. Sure, please So, you know, you asked the question first of all, is it doable? I think by our action of actually going out to a public consultation We have already indicated, you know, I'll believe in what you are doing, right? Which is very very important. But it's it's quite interesting when Emmanuel and Carmine explained the journey in terms of how it started with, you know People around the table, right? These big corporates, you know, who has a lot of knowledge in the subject doing it You know listening to this and reflecting on the 10-year journey that, you know, we went through as a regulator I think the challenge is really how you dribble down and we, you know, I asked you about the adoption guide earlier You can have the global baseline, right? But the details, you know The devil is really in the details as we dribble down, you know from the bigger and stronger global corporates to, you know Local, right? And that's when we have to think about scalability facing in and how do we do it? And I spoke about, you know, HKEX, but we're one of many many regulators in Hong Kong There are, you know, regulators, you know, responsible for the insurance industry and the banking, you know, HKMA and all that So what we do, I just want to share, right? We do have a cross-agency steering group in Hong Kong And we talk about a lot of these coordination things so that we know at least for our jurisdiction Everyone is peddling, you know, in the same direction, same pace and all that We also talk about capacity-building, right? How do we build up the talent pipeline? What our administration can do in terms of developing curriculum for the university so that we know Down the road when there is broader adoption across the globe of these climate disclosure And adoption of these all acceptance of this common standards that that we have enough talent to sustain the work which has been has to be done Yeah, so it's very clear that for companies these days, it's not external to the business strategy Is it to think about things in terms of how am I going to be successful? How am I going to be resilient in the face of climate change, biodiversity loss, etc. So Peter, what kind of trend are you seeing in terms of either new sectors, new companies or new geographies that are coming to you and saying I need a solution? I think the companies that have been sort of at the cutting edge here have been in primarily technology and finance At least in terms of pushing forward in sort of a semi philanthropic way Pushing technologies down the cost curve companies like Google, for example, have a large team that works on deploying large amounts of renewable energy They've pushed forward things like hourly renewable energy credits that then sort of raise the standard for what it means to match renewable energy to actual consumption So those are the sorts of companies that I think have been at the bleeding edge broadly speaking And now have similarly been at the bleeding edge of carbon removal I think we've also seen a shift into financial services Financial services are coming now to us looking for carbon removals and it's sort of spreading from there Let me take it out to the audience now Oh, excellent, we've got a question straight away, I love it Okay, we'll bring over a microphone for you If you'd like to state your name, your company, and who you would like to address the question to Hello, I'm a global shaper from Istanbul My name is Ira I'm also a consultant at PWC and I work on the intersection of workforce in climate change as part of my job as well I do climate change projects and I'm part of a great team of climate activists as part of the global shapers community So I have experience from the activism side, from the regulation side, from the consulting side And I also know about what the companies are needing And what I saw in my collective experience is a big, big disconnect and misalignment between all these stakeholders And I see that a big, big part of the problem is the companies are very worried about what they exactly need to do to comply or to change And I see a solution in companies like yours How do we bring these kinds of solutions in companies and how do we connect you better with them? Do you have ISO standards? Are you compliant with that? That is a question that you should be asking to each other to better actually answer the needs of this ecosystem So my question is basically how do we create better dialogue in this ecosystem And how do we bring better green entrepreneurs into this space to achieve realistic solutions and impact Very good question. Who would like to tackle that first? Peter? Yeah, I can take a pass at that. I actually don't think we're misaligned We come at it from very different perspectives, but I don't actually feel misaligned with this group And what I mean by that is that if you look at the people who, the customers, the corporates that are taking the biggest action For example, take Microsoft. Microsoft is a huge purchaser of renewable electricity They have a lot of AI stuff going on that they also want to offset They also have pushed forward in a huge way in carbon removal to drive that down the cost curve And there haven't been standards, but they're very involved in helping figure out what they are through their actions And figuring out what those things actually are going to look like in practice But I don't think that we can spread from the Microsofts of the world to the tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of other companies Without the standards that are being developed here So I think they play a very key role in helping the industry get started and helping figure out in practice what those things need to look like But the work that these amazing folks are doing is what enables it to actually scale I think your point about dialogue is important and I'm going to throw it then to the panel as well Who are the stakeholders driving this and is there dialogue already between you? Well maybe I can start. Thank you So we have multiple ways of organizing those dialogues IOSCO is hosting a lot of them They have the International Organization of Stock Exchange Commissions, 135 of them They have for instance a Global Emerging Markets Committee, 120 jurisdictions We are speaking regularly to them, engaging directly with those members, getting the feedback We have a Sustainability Standard Advisory Forum with 13 different jurisdictions around the world Including a lot from the south that meet regularly to give us input on those topics We've got an Investor in International Advisory Group of more than 200 And we are talking trillions and trillions of investments of course That are talking to us very regularly as well We have a Jurisdiction Working Group that has for instance the SEC, the EU Commission, the UK, Japan, China Minister of Finance now Singapore is joined and Chile is joined that meets every month Every month to discuss before our board meeting what are the important aspects et cetera et cetera So I do believe that there is a tremendous amount of dialogue And of course all the dialogues that we've got with the accountancy profession And the assurance profession which is absolutely critical So I would say none of that would be possible without much more even than dialogue That's exactly what you say, which is the interconnections of the ecosystem all together I didn't mention the stock exchanges, for instance the stock exchanges have a huge role to play And we are directly connected to more than 60 of them Also I mean the London solution for instance of course Hong Kong with Singapore, Tokyo stock exchange That some of them are really seeing actually our standards as probably even enhancing their own business model Because their market will be more transparent, less risky in terms of beta and therefore attracting more capital So it's a whole ecosystemic work, whatever will happen here won't happen without everyone taking their own share in the effort I think And before we move on to another question, Kamin or Bonnie would you like to input to this as well? You go first I was just going to add to both their comments there has been and continues to be a lot of dialogue I think the frustration is not around the dialogue, the frustrations around action and doing it And so that's been more of the problem here There's been a lot of dialogue for years Maybe too much dialogue Too much dialogue, not enough action And we've accomplished a lot, but people want to see action here I agree, the dialogue, we have lots of it I like the way Peter described it, which is that we're just basically tackling the same problem from different perspective I believe we know there is a common goal here, decarbonisation But we each have our parts to play Eventually I hope things will converge and deliver the promise Excellent, thank you very much for kicking that off for us Do we have other questions from the audience? Yes, sir Hi, Doug Peters from S&P Global I want to start by saying that Manuel was very modest at the beginning What he's done is phenomenal and he's been able to get much more done than anybody would have thought in 18 months So congratulations on that I had a conversation with somebody yesterday about the ISSB, which I'm a huge advocate of That said that you haven't gone far enough or clear enough with the S or the social dimensions of the reporting I know we talk about ESG and on this stage we've almost spent the entire time talking about climate But I know I'm asking a question somebody else asked me so I'm going back to that question But what about the non-climate, non-environmental aspects of ISSB? Please, yes I'll give it a try Thank you Doug for all the support by the way Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that Our general requirements, sustainability S1 says all risks and opportunities in sustainability needs to be reported All and they include impacts Any impacts that may systematically or directly impact the prospects of the company need to be reported And so that includes social by definition We have then developed a thematic standard on climate because that is probably the most complex, the most analytical The most monetized possibility But we will never be climate only We are already climate first and we'll go to the next stage In the meantime, we're basically saying any information if you have to report on a social topic You can use the ESRS and filter them into the materiality of the prospects of the company You can use GRI, this is referred to in S1 already So I know we already have that coverage but it is in a way outsourced to others Filtered by our own filter when we do not have yet a thematic standard The second thing I'd say in the case of climate We have developed an educational material that was ready even before And published before the standards got ready at the first of January this year That talks about just transition and the social aspects of the transition Because we know that it's going to be either a roadblock or an enabler of the transition, the climate transition And so the climate justice, the just energy transition, the accessibility, the affordability The risk-killing of workforce, how you restructure a mining operation when you close it All of that needs to be part of what is going to be described in the climate resilience plans of the companies So we are not complete of course but we do believe that we already have a lot to offer for people that want Or we'd have to actually report on the social side of things Thank you for that. Do we have a last question? We've only got about six minutes left If we've got a quick question, otherwise I've got a cheeky last question as well Please, yes. We've got a microphone for you Thank you very much. I'm Alexander Betts from the University of Oxford Really fascinating panel. Building on the last question about social sustainability metrics I was also wondering about ways of thinking about the interconnection across these areas Environmental, social and also where you see the SDGs as informing the future of sustainability metrics Is there an interaction in how we think about reporting vis-a-vis the SDGs or are we leaving the SDGs behind? Who would like to answer that? Resounding silence is quite a difficult question I'll go. I don't think the SDGs are behind. They are there, they are there To me it's very clear that the SDGs won't... I'll be grand here for a minute The SDGs won't be obtained if economy and finance don't do the hard lifting I mean government's money is catalystic but it doesn't have the amount that is needed for the transition The global capital markets are in total debt plus equity 400 trillions We're speaking about probably 2 trillions needed or 4 trillions needed for the transition No government can pay for that every year but that's only 1% of the total capitalization So if the standards setting work here, the whole ecosystem can produce just 1% shift or 2% shift Every year of that into the transition we will make it And we won't make it without sustaining at the end the SDGs So I think the direction of travel is that you need public policies that are committed to these SDGs And you need well informed capital markets to really be their ally in making sure that finance is funding the transition That the economies and the companies are doing to do in changing their own business models I know you're only just trying to bed down the 2 new standards that we're talking about Let's throw it forward, what's the next suite of standards that you may look to release For example human rights or something else Well the simple thing is we never do anything without consulting So we are running huge consultation processes that take several months of receiving letters and commands and surveys And then we take several months re-deliberating that in actually public sessions All our board meetings are public when we make our decisions We've committed to the next part of the agenda already from scratch the first day And we have consulted on four topics, one is biodiversity and ecosystem The second is human capital and human rights The third is about the integrated in reporting and we are consulting on the fourth one So we will re-deliberate and be back to the market about any combination of all of that Or I don't know yet because that's a decision that we need to make in terms of strategy And based on what the market tells us is more needed For the next two years of agenda by the end of this first half of the year So more to come in that Watch this space, we'll look forward to that Let me just finish up, we're here at Davos About macroeconomic uncertainty, the problems on the geopolitical front seem to be heating up as well There's a myriad of problems out there, you could really climb that wall of worry Do you think, Carmine, that for companies they potentially risk losing focus on the importance of sustainability reporting Because they essentially as a business are just trying to just survive in the face of all the things I mentioned This might be a controversial answer, but absolutely yes In fact, I would even say that in the US, we haven't talked about the US at all And in the US, I've seen companies lose some focus here on sustainability, on disclosure Now if you talk to CEOs, they'll all say, no, no, no, it's in everything we do every day That's why we're not talking about it as much I think there's been a little bit of a loss of focus What do you think, Bonnie? I have a similar answer to the question I think it's very difficult in the current environment for business owners to put a very high priority on this Just because they're trying to survive And I mentioned earlier, with the smaller companies and my listed company's population They see this as a cost So the more reason for them to want a deep prioritise But like I said, the journey continues We have to continue to pedal forward Hopefully market conditions will improve and then we will get the new momentum It's important to stay the course, isn't it? No matter how difficult Let me conclude then, and Peter, you can kick it off for us I'm going to ask each of you a more personal question in terms of What's the one thing that you would like to do personally or in your own business To sort of push this forward to make a difference, essentially In the sustainability reporting department The number one thing that we're doing this year is verifying with a third party The carbon removal that we put underground So it will be verified by a third party who has no financial incentive to verify it That it did, in fact, go underground That's very exciting And actually the most exciting part to me I used to be a buyer of offsets, got very disenchanted with how it was accounted for The most important thing to me is that it will actually be fully public on the website It actually already is And you can go through the entire lifecycle analysis like a FedEx delivery Really? That level of detail and granularity is super important Thank you. What about you, Emmanuel? Oh, it's no news But it's a big thing for me I was asked to consider renewing my mandate That's going to finish at the end of this year So that would be three years So I agreed to double down another three years And so I'll be there for another four years in total Well, thank you for your commitment Thank you Bonnie? Yes, I mentioned it earlier I do think that in order for all this to succeed The human capital, the capacity of building is indispensable So on the one hand I'm inflicting, you know, not inflicting, imposing Introducing disclosure standards and whatnot On the listed companies I manage I very much would want to also do something to help them comply Right? So anything that, you know, I can do in my personal capacity to help build that pipeline It's worthwhile doing And I'm sure as your new role of incoming CEO You'll be able to do that even better Come on, last lucky words Yeah, so mine's a little similar And that is, and I mentioned it before as well I would love for universities around the world To not only have an accounting degree But every accounting degree comes with sustainability You have dual degrees in accounting and sustainability And that becomes the norm That would go a long way It would go a long way for the accounting profession Because I think more and more kids would be interested in it And it's something that I think some schools are starting But it would be fabulous if we can get to that That's a great note to end on Thank you so much to our panel Let's give them a big warm applause