 Well, an interesting one that is the topic of the panel discussion is measuring the influence. I'm sure all of us would love to know more about this topic and we have an eclectic panel of speakers to discuss this topic. So a warm welcome to our panelists. First up, Nishan Kashikar, the country manager of India and Gulf Tourism Australia. Anuja Mishra, Vice President and Head of Marketing, Personal Care and Hygiene Goldrich Consumer Products Limited. Manasi Narsaman, Vice President and Head of Marketing and Communication, South Asia Mastercard, Gurpreet Singh, CEO and co-founder of one digital entertainment, Sebastian Kodron, the global lead in Karteq, in Gulf, we've got Aditya Imad, the managing director, any mind group and ladies and gentlemen, the session chair for this panel is going to be Emi Parthasarthi, the CEO of MindShare. So don't go anywhere as a post this, we've got an interesting panel coming up with our Manisha Kapoor, Virat Seth, Lakshmi Balasubramaniam, Shahid Munir, Sagar Parsh, Vikram Kari and Naseer Raman. So for now, let's welcome our eminent panelists. Firstly, you all have wonderful smiles, great energy coming on the screen and a huge, huge welcome. Thank you all for joining us. How are you doing? Very well. Thank you. I hope you can hear me. Yes, we can. Over to you to moderate it further. Thank you. Great. Good afternoon, everyone and welcome. It is great to hear the earlier two sessions and obviously, influencer marketing has been around probably since the dawn of civilization, right? I mean, from Ayurvedic recipes, which have been done by word of mouth, from sage to sage and written on palm leaf scrolls to possibly gladiators, peddling stuff in the Roman amphitheaters. And what's happened is that, obviously, paid media gave it a sense of scale. And with social media, it did something which it did right at the beginning, right? It brought back a touch of one to one kind of communication. It rekindled a dialogue. And with that, what we've seen is obviously, spends on this medium have gone up significantly. And whenever spends go up significantly, immediate reaction is that a lot of questions are asked. How much to spend? Where to spend? On whom to spend? And most importantly, what does success really look like? One second, there's something with the video. Okay. And most importantly, what does success really look like? And what we have a fascinating panel here because we've got marketers who use the power of influencer marketing. We have people who are developing solutions for this need. And we have some technology experts who are actually the builders of the platforms. So I think we'll have a very good perspective from three different sides. So maybe let me just plunge right down into it with the first question which I have. And this is to the marketers in the house. So maybe I'll start with Anuja. Hi, good to see you. And so the first thing is, how should influencer marketing actually be measured in your opinion? And is it very different from the way you would do any other form of marketing like paid media? So I kind of break this into two parts. I think of course, like any other medium, there is very clearly an objective that defines the usage of an influencer. But I think broadly speaking, I break it into a quantitative and a qualitative aspect. And I think like I also heard Rajesh mention, it's very important firstly that the choice of influencer is fairly deliberated. It's coming really out of a very core brand of philosophy and the influencer has, you see some kind of a strong association of the influencer because that really helps to amplify the authenticity and the messaging of the brand. So I think I really see that that's the foundation of even getting an answer. I think that is, yeah, if the team can mute please. Thank you. Over to you. I think, however, from a KPI lens, I'd say that quantitatively, you usually would look at a set of influencers to give you a much wider reach amongst their community. And I think from that standpoint, the way I would at least, the way we've been evaluating a lot of our influencer campaigns is to look at the kind of outreach within a relevant set of communities and cohorts. And I think equally, getting a positive rub off on the brand with respect to the authenticity of the influencer and the content. So if the influencer is seen to be an expert or somebody who's allied to that specific area, it sort of definitely helps in terms of amplification in almost a multiplier on your content getting shared and spoken of. Absolutely. I think the outreach part that you mentioned is so critical. Nishant, you're in the tourism business, right? And there are so many things that influence it from COVID to economy in general. And influencers obviously play a key part. So what is it that you have seen? And how would you measure success in this space? All right, first and foremost, a big hello to each one of you, all the fellow panelists and all the marketeers on this wonderful Friday afternoon. Part of to answer your question specifically, I guess one of the values that all the marketeers should have is the fact that we should treat every dollar as if it was our own. And as custodians of a brand, we are really accountable for every dollar that we spend. So be it the taxpayers, the shareholders or the VCs or the investors, because every dollar that we spend, we are really truly accountable for that. And yes, influencer marketing should definitely be measured like how we've been measuring every other media. To answer your specific question on what are we doing during the current pandemic? I guess it's extremely important for us to maintain that resonance and that top of mind recall for brand Australia, despite the fact that the borders have been closed for almost 18 months. And God knows when the borders are going to reopen again. So it's all about maintaining, as Anuja said, that qualitative aspect about the brand in terms of awareness, consideration, intention, that appeal. So as soon as the borders open, maybe I'll be traveling to Australia. So all the work that you're doing during this lockdown phase is in terms of that social and content amplification using the power of advocacy, using some of our influencers to ensure that Australia remains top of mind. And in terms of, you know, the metrics, I mean, certainly there are no arrivals and no conversion to this point of time. So it's purely based on what kind of engagement that we are seeing, what kind of reach that we're seeing amongst our influencers and then, you know, what is the kind of engagement that we're seeing on the on various platforms. So yes, that's what we were doing during this phase. Great, great. I know tough times, but I think the influencers are really helping keep Australia top of mind for you. Absolutely. You know, Mansi, Mastercard, of course, is in a very interesting space, right? I mean, people buy cards from the banks and you're at the back powering that entire ecosystem. And so from your perspective, I mean, what really is the role which influencers have played for you? And how do you measure success? Absolutely. You're right, Maps, this is a very interesting space. We are a consumer brand and a B2B business. But I think influencers play a very crucial role in differentiating and in amplifying what the cards can be used for. Because let's face it, not one person on earth gets up saying, what do I spend on today? Oh, let me take out my card. I just can't wait to spend. But they are interested in dining and shopping and Nishanti appoint in the fullness of time travel. So if we amplify that to influencers who are not necessarily celebrities, but experts in their own right. I mean, in the earlier session, we saw Rajesh and Parfetti using chefs at a time of the lockdown. We've had some incredible results by showing those passion points and how Mastercard and a bank can enable those. So in terms of how we measure it, and I think the difference between paid advertising and this is advertising, you test the creative separately and you look for reach separately. In influencer marketing, the two are interlinked. So I think to me getting the influencer right, getting somebody who resonates with the audience is well worth the trade off of that extra reach because the engagement you get is what really drives success, according to me. Absolutely. And it's interesting that you spoke about experts rather than celebrities because the entire aspect of what makes for credible and communication and dialogue more importantly, rather than the one way kind of space. And therefore your metric itself changes in that sense, based on the kind of influencer you use. Absolutely. Having spoken to the marketers, I thought I'll go to the solution providers. We have Goodfrey, we have Sebastian and Aditya here who are on the kind of the other side of the spectrum, if I can look at it. And I'm sure all of you are often asked this question on ROI. And when it comes to ROI itself, different people consider different parameters because what do we mean by return? What does return actually mean? And how do you calculate it? So what is your biggest priority as solution providers when it comes to providing that concept of ROI? So maybe I'll start with you Goodfrey. I think before even, we can give a solution. It comes from what's the brand briefies, right? I mean, if the brand, the marketing campaign that they're doing is the if the briefies, if the objective is branding, if the objective aspiration, objective is reach, conversion, enabling a transaction, right? This is what a brand is looking for. And in most of the cases, it is a combined effort of the brand awareness and the transactions also. I think basis that you can pick up the formulas of looking at how do you want to look at this engagement metrics, CPA metrics, you can look at a CPV metric, or you can look at the CPA, what's the transaction that you have taken up? I think basis the objective of the brand, which comes to us, that's where we can provide the solution. With the social commerce now becoming the next big thing with all these platforms, Instagram, YouTube, integrating the transactions, working on the solution, where they are integrating transaction modules within their own platforms, you will see a CPA being played as big, big role because you can directly track a transaction being done from their handles otherwise. But I think from an influencer's point of view, it's not very evident to look purely from a transaction point of view because they play an important role in passively creating traction higher up in the funnel by starting a thought process that can lead to a transaction. Now, from an ROI, you can track it by SEO, SCEM, Google search, but there's a highly likelihood that influencer might have played a big role in for them to take that decision when they landed on the Google search. Right. So, I think a lot of different metrics there and I think the need to architect a solution which addresses the right metrics becomes so important. Sebastian, you're a technology person, right? You build these platforms and when you look at this platform and the platform of Inca which you've created, what is the kind of ROI which it aims to give to consumers and on the flip side, perhaps, to the influencers as well? I mean, how does it give them the kind of return they are looking for and how do you build a platform like that? Hi, everyone. Well, first, ROI is, I think it's a notion that will eventually be reached through data analysis. It's complicated to get and to measure, but there are ways. So, for example, I could tell you if you're capable of measuring or creating a cluster of content that performed very well and you know they actually impacted the brands positively, either in terms of the wariness, in terms of consideration, in terms of sales, then you can analyze whatever patterns relate to this content in this cluster and build a recipe for success. That will be truly describing what an ROI will be because you could actually try replicate this recipe for success and improve the output of your content. So, that's how we, where we're going in the data analysis and we're trying to learn from what is working and extract the patterns of the recipe for success. Now, for measuring, we can easily get the media value out of any post from any creator. This is because we have a price database from everyone, not from everyone. We have a price database from those who have worked with and from this price database, we can actually model what should be the price from the orders. In the same way, we can model what will be the expected performance of when they post for your brand and with that, we can actually improve the output of a campaign. This is why we sell on performance on Inca. It's because we have the ability of identifying those who will do well for your brand and therefore deliver more improving the ROI. Thanks. Aditya, I think in terms of the solution which you offer, you obviously come from the background of gaming and now some of the biggest influencers are also coming from that kind of space. So, what has been your perspective in terms of driving ROI for brands on your platforms? Good evening, everyone. Thank you very much for that question, Naps. I hope everyone is safe and sound. I think it is very important that we first and foremost understand data and the data structures that are available. Given the platforms have world gardens, it becomes essential that there are enough and more trained models that allow us to in certain ways ascertain what the performance output should be and only then can we go back to a brand and advise them in terms of what the key metric should be. To the marketeers who alluded a little while earlier that it is a good trade-off in terms of reach versus a higher engagement because then you're looking at the qualitative part of how the influencers that you've chosen have delivered for that brand. We do come across a lot of marketeers who do have questions going to the fact that they come from having worked within paid media. They try to super transpose the paid media KPIs onto influencer marketing, but I think what's most important is owning relevance, understanding what click-to-conversion ratios would be. Performance metrics are very, very important given the pandemic. I think if anything that has been expedited is the need of the ARB, the brands should have their e-commerce shops and we are able to track that. We are able to track how influencers are able to then drive relevant target audiences onto a particular brand. I also like what Grupit said. It is very clearly the how do you use the nature of the demographics of these influencers from a nano to a micro to a micro to a top star? If you're looking at an awareness, of course it goes to a celebrity to a top star, but when you're looking at bottom of the funnel conversion, you need to have a large ecosystem of signed up influencers on platforms that you can initiate a campaign with and then you cross tie back that with what part of influencer demographic sits within the awareness process and what of them sits within the influencer and nano and micro influencers at the bottom of the funnel. For us, I think the need of the ARB is A, in this new creator economy where D to C is becoming important, where creators are themselves becoming merchandise themselves too. They want to reach out to their captive followers. I think brands are leveraging that and we see that when we go back with any advice, it is to do with what are the metrics that the client is looking at and how do we drive that? Right. I think you raise an interesting point because on one hand you have this alphabet soup if I can call it like, you know, so you had CPM and then you had CPS and CPRP and CPA and you know, you think of a you think of a letter in the alphabet and you can put it after CP and you'll get something right. And the latest of course in this arena is cost per reach or cost per engagement and so on and so forth, which are the new metrics which are coming up. Now, on one hand, you have what I would call as output metrics and then there are outcome metrics. So I'm going back to the marketers and saying, how do you how do you really balance between the output metrics which are more around the cost deployment and perhaps the numeric reach and the outcome metrics which are more about the end business outcome, you know, and how do you find influencers actually working for you in that context? So maybe Mansi, why don't you start off on that? Absolutely. So I think as everyone has mentioned, it really depends on the objective. So I'll give you a couple of examples where we've used influencers. So one has been when we were launching with certain banks, cards targeted at millennial audiences and obviously millennials kind of live and die on, you know, in the digital world. So again, it was about identifying those passion points, whether that's gaming, whether that's music, getting those experts to talk about how convenient the card makes their life. And the metric there was how many leads the bank was able to get versus other marketing channels that used and versus channels that the bank also deployed. A different use that we've had. So that's a very clear sort of measurable metrics or cost per whatever that that we could put. But I think equally important is in the digital payments world is to reassure card holders that digital payments are absolutely safe and reliable because unfortunately, media tends to blow completely out of proportion any odd breach that happens. Or to educate card holders, you know, don't share your OTP, for example. That we found works very, very well through influencers, as opposed to the brand saying, you know, here are 10 things you need to do to stay safe and be very recently put out a post with Ayushman Khurana from another bank saying exactly this, share happiness, don't share your OTP. And qualitatively we found the awareness of those messages goes up significantly with influencers more than say direct to consumer paid media. So that's really been two examples, one very quantitative lead generation, one more education and overall awareness and different influencers used for both. Very, very interesting. I mean, I think so you're saying that the two kind of coexist, right? In the world of influencers, you see both ends of the spectrum coexisting. Absolutely. Nishant, how about some examples from your side in terms of kind of managing this dichotomy of output and outcome, when it comes to measurement and metrics? That's an interesting one because at Tourism Australia before we embark on any influence engagement activity, what we create is an influencer engagement score. And what I mean by an influencer engagement score is we evaluate seven hours and the seven hours primarily comprised of reach. What is the traditional image? What does the social media reach, international reach in case of if you're having some global influencers as a part of your, you know, advocacy panel, what are the connections that they have within the industry? So reach is very important. The rise of the celebrity, like what the stage of success is that influencer currently at? I mean, is he a key opinion leader or a subject matter expert? So if you want to promote a food and wine centric theme, then you need to have somebody who has gained sufficient respect and recognition in that particular field. Reputation plays an important role as well of that particular celebrity because ultimately we are managing a reputation of a nation and we can't go wrong. You know, you can possibly make mistakes when handling a brand, but if you're managing a reputation of a nation or a country like Australia, I guess that plays a very important role. Relationship also plays an important role, like you would ideally work with somebody who has lived in Australia, traveled to Australia on a holiday, has got some friends and relatives in Australia or maybe studied in an Australian university as a part of the Australian alumni. So that relationship with Australia counts as much. The next hour is about resonance and relevancy. You know, is it relevant to our category? You know, do they have a credible and authentic tone of voice when it comes to, you know, inviting them for an advocacy campaign? The most important hour is the risk. I mean, have they been associated in any previous controversy or have they been associated in any unacceptable behavior? Because that can make or break your brand as well or your campaign as well. And finally, the last hour is all about the expected ROI that we've all been talking about. What are those industry benchmarks for that reach? What is the industry engagement rate that we're looking at and whether we can exceed those metrics? So a combination of these hours will give you an influencer engagement score. If the score is about a 70, 80 percentile, you would go ahead and work with that particular celebrity. Now, in terms of the output or the outcome, as you rightly mentioned, that how do you measure the outcome of any activity? One is obviously the campaign metrics, you know, the views, the engagement, the shares, the likes and maybe the cost of customer acquisition in case we're doing a tactical campaign. But equally important are the brand health metrics, which comprise of maybe awareness for the brand, you know, the consideration and intention, the fashionability or appeal for for the brand. And this can be done through various brand lip surveys as well, you know, we do a pre and a post campaign analysis. And finally, you know, the reason why we all exist are to achieve the strategic APIs in terms of arrivals, the visitation, the spend, the contribution, the repeat travel percentage and the market share of your destination. So three levels of metrics, the campaign metrics, the brand metrics and the strategic APIs is how we would evaluate your, your, any influencer activities. Love, love the seven hour framework, Nishant. I just, I was just reading a book, which says if you, if someone says I have three things, three things to say, then immediately people will start noting down point one, point two, point three, rather than if you just said those three things. So I think you've proved the point. I noted it down. So that's, that's great. You know, I think Anuja, moving on to you, how do you see this? Have you kind of resolved this dichotomy between the outcome and the output metrics, if I could call it that? I think to be very honest, I think the FMCG industry would be possibly one of the last to, you know, resolve this outcome versus output metric. And one of the reasons for that maps is that, you know, at any given point in time on any brand campaign, you would potentially have a lot of mass interventions running in parallel with, you know, let's say your content or influencer marketing pieces. And I think therefore it's, it's important, you know, like I think both Mansi and Nishant mentioned, it's important to be one very clear of, you know, what your brand agenda is. And I'll try and sort of explain this through two examples, you know, one year. So, you know, just very much at the start of COVID, you know, we got into the massive hygiene category, you know, and we launched, you know, about 12 formats of, you know, various hygiene products over the span of about 60 to 70 days. And, and Godzich protectors are relatively, I'd say a new brand, you know, up against some stalwart brands in the hygiene, you know, sector. And, you know, why we've of course got the trust of brand Godzich. It was also important for us to, you know, take the promise of the brand across all these formats to to consumers, you know, through product demonstration, you know, through early sort of, you know, taking the product more physically out to them, and not just relying on, you know, mass media, because there were multiple formats. And, you know, it was obviously not possible to go TV out on all of them. And, you know, there was also the time just by the way, when there were several, you know, companies that got into hygiene, I think, you know, it was clearly a race to, you know, no finish line at that point. And there were a lot of large celebrities at many organizations that actually gone in for. But, you know, one of the things that we had been hearing, you know, from consumers constantly was, you know, this feeling of vulnerability that we were all going through. And how much more important, you know, your, your next door neighbor and someone in your family became as a voice of reason, you know, as almost as an advocate of reason in your life. And that's why we decided that, you know, we were actually not going for a short, high burst, you know, high amplification influencer model, you know, rather we sort of create an army of moms, you know, mothers who are fairly active in social media, but you know, they're, they're ones who have, you know, who are respected, who are looked up to, you know, whether it be about the choice of brands or, you know, whether it be about, you know, especially young mothers, I think, you know, that's a very vulnerable group and, you know, even more at that point. And, you know, we also realize that, you know, we needed these influencers to continue to talk about the product about, you know, the features for a longer period of time, you know, and, and therefore it wasn't just an outreach number, but it was also about the number of times and the other frequency, you know, of conversations that they were having in their closed groups or, you know, in their circles. So that was definitely one usage. And, you know, what that's definitely done maps, you know, it's very difficult to put our finger and say that we of course have an outreach number, right, but it's very difficult to put our finger and say that, you know, it's only this influencer program that let's say helped us to bring our imagery parameters upwards. But, but what we certainly know is that, you know, in a lot of fear two times, you know, where, where let's say, you know, there is, there is even more, I'd say, a deliberation, right, on choosing a brand. We've seen very definitive impact of the fact that who you heard the brand, you know, from was there was a lot of mention about, you know, these this army of moms and so on. So I think that's, that's one usage, right? The other usage that I'll very quickly touch upon is, you know, our flagship brand Synthol. And that's a brand that, you know, sort of advocates exploration and travel. And here we were in the midst of COVID where, you know, you could do anything but travel, right, sitting at home. And interestingly, you know, this is a time when usually brands would say, you know, there's no point creating content around travel, because, you know, it won't really sort of result in conversions. But you know, we said this is actually the best time to create a community. You know, because there's a very strong feeling of nostalgia around travel, you know, that's really something that's people almost doing that bicariously. I think, you know, pretty much everyone was posting their past travels or their last travels on their social accounts. And we said, you know, this is a great time to actually create a community of explorers, which is going to be, you know, our travel influencers, none of them, you know, potentially very large known faces. But, you know, each of them actually, you know, very passionate travel enthusiasts, you know, and I think what it did for the brand is of course, you know, it brought us up to 250%, you know, over the industry kind of engagement rates and so on. But what it really helped us do is that, you know, it built a very strong empathy, you know, from the brand's point of view to that of consumers to say that, hey, you know, you're not the only one who's kind of, you know, stuck at home. Here are these people, you know, who are passionate travelers. And, you know, let's understand from them how are they kind of, you know, rekindling, you know, their passion for travel, or, you know, how are they sort of going back in, you know, reliving those moments. And, you know, so aside this entire engagement, I think aside the fact that we've created brilliant content with these influencers, I think it really upped the brand imagery, you know, and the brand association with exploration and travel even more than maybe a non-COVID year. So I thought those were two, you know, fairly interesting usages of influencer marketing. Very, very interesting. And you raise a very valid point, which I want to shift back to the solution providers. So maybe, Sebastian, I'll just quickly start with you. Anuja raised the point of almost attribution, if I could call it that, right? How much can you attribute to what the influencer has done to the kind of end outcome which the brand is seeking? So from the point of view of devising the solution, how do you look at that? I mean, in terms of what is the actual end attribution, if I could call it that? Well, I don't have 7R, but I have about 100 data points to make this connection. So don't take a pen, it will take a while. But yeah, what we're looking at is basically measuring the influencers matching with a brand. And what we're looking at is understanding how an influencer can match a brand in terms of content. So the brand has territories, the influencer has topics, and there is certainly a matching there. We're also looking at the audience. The brand has a target audience. The influencer has a followers audience, and then we can definitely match it. In the same manner, a brand has a digital persona. They have a typical kind of profile, and the influencer may or may not have this profile. So you will also establish a matching there. A brand has objective influencer. A Canon service objective by the type of content he is creating. For example, if you want to generate a awareness, perhaps better to work with a celebrity, but if you want to write great consideration, you need to work with somebody who is specialized in this kind of topic and has created a lot of content about it, and is very engaging when it comes to this kind of content. So we're looking at all of this in order to make sure we select the right person, and that we're going to get something great in return. Because if you only look a little bit, just as we're talking about maybe just as the audience, maybe the reputation is not good. You also need to look at it. So to me, it requires a lot of intelligence, and I mean by that artificial intelligence, to be able to eventually match the creators with a brand. And that's where we have to go. And doing it manually is not possible, and which is why whose data platforms are absolutely necessary nowadays, because without it, you won't be able to know who to work with and what to do. Thank you. Thank you. I think AI coming into influencer marketing is perhaps the last bastion of what was once a very right-brained and intuitive kind of selection. So that's an interesting space. Good brief, your thoughts on this? I think Sebastian has covered the relevance of having the data pointers, AI, tech, and honestly, we have been doing it as one digital entertainment since last eight, nine years. And we obviously study all of this data. But I think beyond that, now is the time when a lot of brands have started thinking. And like Anuja mentioned, it was very refreshing and encouraging to hear from a brand point of view, the philosophy that we carry, that it's not always about, that it's not always about doing a short story. It's not always about doing a post, but building long-term communities, building long-term influencing audiences over a long-term period to measure the trust, measure the credibility. Because I don't know which is a data point via which you can measure credibility or the trust or the actual influence by somebody. I think that's where a lot of brands and our pitch to brands is that beyond just doing a transaction, can we look at a way to build more strategic partnership with the influencer over the period of once and hopefully year. And a lot of them now have started realizing the impact and a better ROI for that. There are some influencers whom we have worked with a few brands where we have done a transaction or two, they have tested waters, and then they have locked the influencers for a year or two years, or there are even three-year deals that we have locked. And the good part is because we are just not a transactional agency, we manage their artist business, we know they're 12 months, we know what's going to happen in their life after 6 months, 7 months, what are the movies, what are the web series they are doing throughout this year and potentially next year also. So it's very easy for us to integrate organically the content into the lifestyle of the influencer. And that's where you will build the trust when your product is integrated very, very organically within the lifestyle, otherwise people call the bluff. Why TV ads, why radio ads, I mean, there's always a debate that it's very on-the-face marketing, does it work or doesn't work. But why influencer marketing is creating that dent in the ecosystem is because there is a way you can organically integrate the content without just throwing the product on the face. And I think, like Nishan mentioned, there are some industries where it will be very easy. There are certain industries where it will be a task, you need most specialized set of people to integrate brands within the content. Like why tourism loves influencers, because influencers also love traveling like everyone else. So those are very, very organic integrations that can happen where I don't think Nishan has to fight with influencers multiple number of times that you have not done this story, this post. Most of the times I'm sure he gets more than what he asked for. Because it's so integrated organically into what they are looking for. I think that's where the right set of influencers and also understanding of what they want to do, giving them a little bit of freedom also and building long-term partnerships. That's where the actual ROI will come. Otherwise, it will be just fancy alphabets in the slides in our preview meetings. Aditya, your builds on this? I think I completely concur with both Sebastian and what we have shared. I'd like to just, since I have a captive audience with both Mansi and Anuj, I'll start with Mansi's industry first and then probably go to Anuj and give those examples in terms of how relevant an attribution platform could be. Wall Street never thought that finance as a category has never been high in terms of influencer market. Finance is probably languages down in the 12th or the 13th quarter in terms of how influencers are looked at. To the point that could be made that it is very important to have relevant influencers, guys like Austin Hankwitz, I'm sure you might not have even heard of him, but he is currently earning more than what an average banker work makes in Wall Street. A lot of robo-advisor apps have now started to look at this gentleman to see how does he become the new crop of fin influencers, they call them. So which is where is he doing credible content? Is he creating relevant insights into the actual product in the brand that he's pushing? Has he utilized that product? Or is he just doing it as a paid post? How well does he understand investing? How well does he understand tax harvesting? How well does he understand? So I think credibility kind of comes in there. I agree with Gurupit, even I don't have a measure. I don't have a free lettered random alphabet to say that this is what credibility comes in for. I think what Anujar said is probably a little tougher attribution of what ROI has been generated by an influencer when mass campaigns are happening. Countries like India, Indonesia, Philippines, these are countries where cost per each is lowest in television, still remains to be. And while I'm a digital guy myself, I do understand the intricacies of how paid media works. What is most important, however, in the case of CPG would be then if you're looking at the bottom of the funnel, you're looking at ways of running live campaigns with influencers who are given unique codes and those unique codes can be a community of those influencers are chosen then unique codes that then track can be tracked both at point of sale. So it could be an online to an offline track versus an online to an online track where while the live show is happening for four and a half hours, two hours, and you're using multiple influencers who may have different strategic insights for a particular brand, and a mother could come take a shot at protect a hygiene brand versus a metrosexual dad versus a elder brother to a bunch of siblings to an uncle to a grandmother. So there are ways in which you can run this right and then track that back to the unique codes that have been given. So an attribution per se can then be tracked maps, it is doable. We've done those campaigns, you know, in Philippines and Indonesia, we run them multiple number of times. And then again, I think it's very important to subscribe to an expert, very important to then go out to, you know, guys like a cyber guys like group read who know who know the data side data insights, right? Yeah, trading a model understanding how AI works, it takes a whole lot of data sets to train that model right modeling modeling something is not something about manually assessing, you know, a finger in the air approach towards who this influences looks good. So maybe he should be the one doing doing the job for us, right? I wish that was that we're true, right? So for us, I think that is that it kind of boils down to that as a description. Thank you so much. I think I'm rapidly running out of time on this panel. So I thought I'll end it by asking the three marketers in the room in 30 seconds each. If you had a wish list or if you had a, you know, a lamp which you could rub, and a genie would pop out and you would have to ask them one thing about what it is that you would like more measurability or accountability from influencer marketing, what would you say? So Nishan, maybe I'll start with you. I guess to each zone, it all depends on the campaign objectives, the purpose, the reason why we are pointing an influencer. And then as I said earlier, you know, there are three things that you measure based on the campaign metrics, the brand metrics, and the overall strategic KPIs, whether the influencer or the group of influencers have made any effort or rather their contribution to the overall success or shifting the brand metrics for your for your respective product. Great. Thank you. More on to Anuja. I think to the to the three genies who are on the call here with us, I just say that I think what will be interesting for marketers, maps is to understand various models of influencer marketing, right? And therefore they can longer term advocacy model, a shorter term quick burst. But I think what will be interesting is just to understand, you know, there are fundamentally three or four large objectives that brands would have, you know, it's either about building awareness or driving consideration, or let's say, you know, driving a certain bottom of the funnel kind of a conversion. It'll be interesting to just understand models, you know, and a very quick reckoner, I think, almost of sorts, so that we're not kind of, you know, learning by trial. But there is some science to it in my senses with all the work that's happened on influencer marketing in the country over the last six to seven years, I think there's enough data points to kind of put that down. So, yeah, so I'm not asking for much. Playbook, which tells you exactly what thoughts, right, to just say these are the five or six ways that you can effectively utilize and measure. Great. And the last word goes to Manasi. Well, I absolutely echo what Anuja said, I mean, absolutely wish we could have a plug and play model. But the other thing and again, personal experience is I think, as a community, we need to convince others that influencer marketing is not about how many times your brand is mentioned in a post. I mean, I've had when we work with banks and even, you know, with several others to say, oh, my brand needs to be mentioned at least 20 times. And like, no, this is not advertising. So I think as this, you know, this part of marketing evolves that will happen. But that could be one of my, you know, points of a wish list. Knock off the words, make the logo bigger from this at least. Absolutely. So thank you all so much. I mean, it's been a pleasure being on this panel with you all. And I would hand it back to the team at E4M. Thanks. Thanks, Partha. Thanks, everyone. Thank you so much. Thank you.