 it gives you an idea, you know, what food is. Many speak of food as medicine, for example. Steiner spoke about food as the actual thing that develops your, well shall we say, will forces, you know, your ability to develop consciousness even, he went that far. Some of the crazy stuff he said, but you know, it's I think science will sooner or later even get to these kinds of things that food is way more than just a sort of a way to, you know, a delivery system of calories shall we say. Sebastian Kretschmer is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. As an organic agriculture educator for sustainable development and food systems expert, Sebastian is committed to help build regenerative food sheds and equitable value chains for maximum SDG performance. As a biodynamic farmer, lecturer and advisor to corporations and international aid organizations, Sebastian has designed and implemented programs aimed at fostering food sovereignty and to grow the next generation of organic farmers. Projects from 2004 to 2018 include the Northeast Mentor Network and Biodynamic Apprentice Program with the New England Small Farm Institute, his community-supported agriculture farm at Camp Hill Village in Pennsylvania, the Ethical Rainforest Supply Chain Project with Estee Lauder, engaging with indigenous communities in Brazil and Honduras, as well as the Organic Orchard Prison inmate reentry program with the City of Philadelphia and Temple University. Throughout the last few years, as founding member of the Organic Food System Program and the UN One Planet Network, Sebastian uses recently completed PhD project at the University of Castle, Germany to develop essential variables for food systems transition pathways. A central focus of his work is to leverage the capacity of farmers and food processors through the formation of food hubs, which Sebastian believes can drive the mechanics of public procurement as well as B2C and B2B value change within territorial food systems. As a global citizen, Sebastian is passionate about big ideas, deep sustainability and a systems approach for everything. Sebastian, welcome to the show. It's so good to see you. I see you nodding there. Did I leave anything out? You've been doing this for a while, so I'm sure there's a lot more I could add. Hello, Mark, and thanks for having me on your show. Well, I've always been faithful to the discipline of sustainable agriculture from being a farm apprentice to then a journeyman and then studying at college organic agriculture and then going back to farming, to being a consultant, to being an educator, to being a bit of an agripreneur, perhaps it's a lovely word. I'm not sure if I exactly fulfill that criterion, but I'd like to consider myself an agriculturalist and now through my academic studies, I've really gotten into the SDGs and what organic agriculture can do to accomplish that agenda. So I'm sort of a one-trick pony when it comes to my professional life. I've been an organic agriculture specialist, but I've explored many disciplines within and so I'm proud to say that from being a farmer to now soon holding a PhD in agriculture, that's my deep, deep passion. I love it and I love agripreneur that I think that's great word as well. So it's so true and we'll get into more kind of small hold farms, community farms, community food webs and things, entire discussion, but I'd like to start out first and foremost. So during this time of almost two years now of craziness, you know, pandemics and black lives matters, a lot of food issues, crazy inauguration, Asian racism and even in Germany, a lot of flooding going on to climate change and affecting agriculture and infrastructure in many different ways where our earth is just not able to absorb, our soils are not able to absorb the amount of water that they're seeing and the kind of infrastructures we've forced them to be. I want to know, honestly, are you and your wife okay? Have you weathered this craziness time, this storm, but also in this journey finishing up your PhD and what you've been doing for a long time as an organic farmer, how have you weathered and has any of proven to be kind of a better model for resilience or a better way of life or one that kind of helps you get through crazy times like we've experienced? That's a nice question and I know you asked these questions, your guests, which I think is beautiful because then you get real sort of comparability between different people's perspectives. Well, you know, the earth is holding up a mirror, you know, and it's been sort of clear for many, you know, how dire the situation was and has been and it's this kind of emergence that you could now detect in the kind of consciousness that has been there for a long, long time, you know, about the suffering both socially and in the social sphere of our global community because the environmental crisis that began to sort of reveal itself beginning in the 70s has been correctly labeled as a social crisis really, you know, how we relate to each other and it's so, you know, in a way it's, you could almost say, well, we told you so, you know, but, you know, that doesn't help. I mean, it's just an emergent consciousness that is gaining a lot of momentum now and unfortunately, you know, most folks are sort of reactive rather than proactive, shall we say, and now that the earth is sort of forcing us almost, you know, to smell the coffee and to wake up, many of us have been, well, intrinsically motivated, you know, to realize these things, the suffering that's been going on on our planetary health and ecosystem health, but also in the social sphere. And so it's kind of heartwarming to see that a lot of the knowledge that had been generated already through the ages, I mean, a lot of the knowledge and wisdom from the mystics, you know, the Eastern philosophies, many of these things are now beginning to take on a whole different meaning. Now that science has, you know, finally come around to actually regard common sense also as a sort of important normative agenda, since the SDGs especially, you know, indigenous knowledge and other forms of local knowledge are being taken a little bit more serious, you know, there is a transition from this very reductionist thinking to a more sort of systems approach. And likewise with all the movements that you've mentioned, you know, people are gaining more and more sensitivity for the feedback, you know, that sometimes just spans generations, if you think of Black Lives Matter, you know, that the deeply entrenched suffering and all the sort of negative synergies that have arisen from that, you know, and that have built these sort of macro regimes of injustice, you know, that are based on sort of, you know, feedback loops, exactly feedback loops, but feedback loops with negative externalities there are also feedback loops with positive externalities. And so this kind of consciousness that is emerging is deeply heartwarming for me. And, you know, luckily, I haven't really been so fazed by the corona pandemic simply because I've been in my, you know, beloved university here in Germany, I live a stone cast a cat sleep away I can walk here by foot I get here at seven in the morning I get out of here by seven at night and, you know, we've been rather unfazed by, you know, let's say the corona pandemic, we're vaccinated and everything. But the fact that I don't know a lot of people that have, you know, contracted the disease is sort of also testimony perhaps that I may not be connected to so many people that are maybe not as fortunate as I because as we all know on a systemic level, it hits also predominantly folks that are not as privileged, you know. And so to say that I don't know anybody or not many people that haven't gotten this is sort of like not, you know, a great I mean, sure, I know some people for sure, also, but, you know, the kind of compassion that is needed now also to feel the solidarity with folks that are not as privileged, you know, and I count myself as privileged, even though I'm not earning a lot of money as a scientist, I mean, you know, it's not exactly a white collar salary. Well, it should count as a white collar salary, but still, no, I feel blessed and, you know, luckily I've had plenty to do in my academic work to just kind of, you know, wait it out. And I've been lucky enough to be productive in this time. That's great. I mean, my daughter, my oldest daughter went to the Goethe Institute in Castle, so I know exactly how beautiful it is. There I've been there before. She had a wonderful time. But I also know what the microcosmos looks like in Castle. And so you are very fortunate, not only is that a great university, but a great place to be. And there's something to be said with that. Our health is really a microcosmos of the world around us. So if the world around you is doing pretty good, as far as education and basic resources and farming and environment, clean air, great trees, nice forests, things like that, that kind of create this nice microcosmos around you. It's really a reflection on health as well. I'm in Hamburg, Germany, so it's a big harbour town. So a lot of ships, a lot of pollution, a lot of emissions in the air, a lot of bad air. It's also a green city, but it's much different. It's much more densely populated. And so it's a whole different microcosmos. It's a lot easier to spread things. And it's also tied to how healthy the air and environment is around us. We're all on the same planet, so there's really no place to hide from climate change or bad air. We're all going to breathe the same air, eventually drink the same waters, eventually. I mean, I probably to a degree of breathe the same air that Gandhi breathed, or whoever the other grade is that I would consider out there. I also like the fact that but I'm going to hold your feet to the fire a little bit. The fact that you really tie that to this consciousness, and you and I are both biodynamic, organic harmors, so certified and been doing it for a while. I don't know if you this is a kind of a replica book, but it's Agriculture by Rudolf Steiner. It's really the biodynamic Bible, so to say almost. But I wanted to see if you, because you mentioned consciousness and you also mentioned agriculture and kind of how you see this world around you and the basics. He was pretty esoteric. He was pretty big on consciousness and spirituality and different views on nature and the world and things as well, which can scare a lot of people. A lot of people say, well, that's, you know, tree hugger. It's esoteric. That's something that's out there that doesn't have a lot to do with science. So, one, I don't want to jump off tangent too much, but it kind of ties into some things and I would love to see your view. And then I really want to also hold your feet to the fire. Maybe you could say one way or the other has kind of, since you've been even in the United States, that's where you're originally from and then you're living in Europe and maybe kind of your historical ties to how you've come to where you are today. But has any of that helped to kind of say, oh, I have this different lifestyle that I live or I chose and how I interact with my microcosmos in my world? And it actually, in times of pandemics and times of hard times, it gives you a little resilience or it gives you some other bills or say it was awful. It was miserable. It felt like I was in prison. That's kind of, I'm kind of wondering if you noticed any difference from kind of before and after or during type of situations, if there's a new model in there, if there's a new kind of that new consciousness model to live. Well, I've trained in biodynamics and in fact, I've had some mentors that even knew Steiner still. It did inspire me and I have to say Steiner's Anthroposophy, the science of, you know, humankind translated is sort of far out, you know. And so here at the university we're very, very carefully taking some of his hypotheses and we've actually worked with a number of them in a very fruitful manner. You can tell the value of a movement by way of how it becomes a self-starter, you know, what it actually inspires. Think of the whole Waldorf school movement that Steiner started. Fabulous. You know, there are many analysts that are saying there should be a Waldorfization of the school system right now because it's a very, very valuable approach to schooling. Think of, you know, Steiner's whole sort of health impulses that inspired, you know, an anthroposophical sort of medicine track and some very successful companies that have advanced homeopathy, you know, in the most effective ways. Think of some of his macroeconomic theories that he advanced, you know, that have become the basis for many sort of commoning approaches and the sort of what we call the economy, kind of economy based on, you know, global commons and in everybody's welfare. And so Steiner, to me, you know, has been a big source of inspiration as an agriculturalist and still worldwide. You can see how it has borne fruits, think in viticulture, you know, in the wine growing regions of the world, how many vintners or, you know, viticulturists have adopted some of the biodynamic measures without making a big deal out of it, you know, just because it works, you know. It's powerful stuff. And so it's hard to really empirically measure some of those things. But just to name maybe an example, looking at some of the soil biome affected by these biodynamic preparations and a sort of biodynamic farming regime have shown some very promising patterns of sort of effective microbes and clay humus complexes, arranging themselves with beneficial microorganisms. And there are these sort of picture forming methods now to show the effects of these techniques. Likewise, in the food space, Steiner inspired this technique, it's called copper chloride crystallization, initially designed to detect cancer cells in blood. So crazy breakthrough technique. Copper chloride is a metal salt, you know, and if you add small samples of let's say plant juices, even in in the food space, as I mentioned, it's been used. And then with some distilled water, this copper chloride always crystallizes out on a pastry dish when the water evaporates. And it always leaves a very distinct crystal structure just by itself. But if you use some small samples, you know, like wheat or carrot juice, let's say, or even milk, you know, then you you get a very sample specific crystal picture. And so I was involved with the actual I did my master's thesis in 2004, we developed like a scientific method around how to use the visual evaluation of these copper chloride crystal pictures. And so then we compared, you know, how does it different now when you have conventional wheat or carrot juice added to this copper chloride salt as opposed to organic and biodynamic. And the differences are striking and are actually statistically relevant. There are publications on this peer reviewed. And so the crystal images from the samples from the organic samples, when you assess them according to this sort of nomenclature that we developed, you know, these descriptors that remind you almost of a botanical type of description, because the crystal pictures have these needles, and these side needles, and they either are very center coordinated, they ray out to the periphery, or they kind of are stunted and they stop spreading. They say something about the vitality of the plant, you know. And so just that alone is an indication that there is a sort of inner order to food. And while this may be considered a luxury problem, because the foremost priority, of course, must be to feed people, you know, healthy food, and it doesn't necessarily have to be organic, it should be sustainable, it should be mostly plant based. But still, it gives you an idea, you know, what food is, many speak of food as medicine, for example. Steiner spoke about food as the actual thing that develops your, well shall we say, will forces, you know, your ability to develop consciousness, even he went that far. Some of the crazy stuff he said, but you know, it's, I think, science will sooner or later even get to these kinds of things. That food is way more than just sort of a way to, you know, a delivery system of calories, shall we say. So the anthroposophy and the biodynamic agriculture is the perfect sort of fusion of, on the one hand, an enlightened agricultural model that developed notions such as the farm organism, how to calibrate the land base to the amount of livestock, you know, these ideas of deep ecology have been radical at the time, you know, the idea of agriculture being a highly sort of local affair, you know, close nutrient cycles. These are notions that Steiner has advanced. But the fusion on the one side, between this and also the sort of idea that we are on an evolutionary journey, and that there is a sort of trajectory, there is a sort of hidden driver there in the evolution of consciousness, and the sort of idea of school of life, it was Steiner's ambition really to sensitize people about the idea of an evolution of consciousness that we can actively engage with. And so to me, that was really a deep, deep awakening. And it has, you know, sort of shaped my life in many ways. And I've met amazing people, you know, that are really working in the most productive, undocumented ways with this anthroposophy and biodynamic farming. So what can I say? That's a huge success. And it's really something that works. There are some things that we'll touch upon as we go further as far as regenerative organics. And if that's, you know, it's a step further, if it's another layer to the onion, so to say, if it's another dimension that we open up and what that looks like, mixed with, you know, agroforestry, permaculture, that different practices out there of which I believe we both have many experiences and touch points with as well. I'm going to still hold your feet to the fire now. On a personal note, during that, I want, you know, whether you take it to 14, 16, 18 months, two years, period of time that we've had, there's some crazy things going on. Has there been any learning lessons? Has there been anything where you say, boy, I'm very, I'm very fortunate and blessed to have this type of thinking like, you know, a biodynamic, organic agriculture to think in many ways like some of these greats that have been out there, because they're almost better models, not only to connect humanity, but to connect us with our basic energy source. And I just want to know if, you know, if there's, you do not need to get personal if you don't want to, but I just want to know. I mean, I've heard stories and I'll give you some examples. I've heard stories from some of my guests and friends have been on the show who've really said, boy, I used to speak about this all the time and talk about the future. And then it came and I wasn't prepared and I'm struggling and it was hard. And then others said, no, I've been, I actually applied what I spoke about and what I taught into my life and it was a lifestyle almost. And I was able to, I was able to weather it pretty good, whereas my neighbors were running to buy the last thing a toilet paper or struggling for food or arguing or fighting at home or whatever it was, because it was a really hard time for them and their lifestyle wasn't conducive. They were used to others providing this sustenance or basic needs or infrastructure to them. But I kind of had that. And so I'm just wondering if there was any aha moments, learning lessons or anything that bubbled to the surface or you've kind of been reflection, whether you're reflecting right now when I ask you the question, if there was anything like that for you? If not, it's okay. Well, I have to say honestly that it didn't come as a surprise to me. I've always been acutely aware of the suffering in the ecosystem and in the world. As a consultant, I was able to travel the world quite a bit working with organizations and also a Nobel Peace Laureate, Kallar Satyati in India, helping to get these kids out of the mica mines and in Haiti after the earthquake, trying to connect local citrus farmers to some global markets or be it in Honduras working in indigenous territories or on the Amazon. I've seen the suffering also in Liberia just six months before the Ebola outbreak and I've been traveling in Monrovia and some of the poorest parts of the world. And so I've been acutely aware of the suffering and the sort of driver trajectory of the current driver patterns and where that is headed inevitably because of the sort of misaligned capital basis. The natural capital and the social capital are just not aligned and we've been tripping on the wrong paradigms. One has to say it as bluntly as that. There have been grave errors in understanding the sort of image of humankind and our role on this planet. It has been grossly misinterpreted and it was completely inevitable that these things were going to happen. When you look at the just at the the biome that comes about in this sort of very nasty kind of chaos that comes about in shall we just maybe mention the food system space. There's a real difference between the sort of lovely sort of chaos on an organic farm where there is a multitude of microorganisms where there are plenty of sort of antagonistic forces that keep things in check through the diversity in the soil and that is of course then also expressed on the sort of the surfaces of the fruits we harvest and in the spaces around the farmstead. There's a big difference between that kind of lovely chaos and the nasty sort of disorder that comes about when you deal with substances such as pesticides and other synthetic inputs and the kinds of negative synergies that sort of spin out of control when you have these misaligned capital bases. The biome in the world was inevitably going to lead to the spread of such viruses because there aren't the kinds of antagonistic forces that keep things in check and you can take this as a metaphor even into our own sort of inner life you know we're sort of in a way governed by you know narratives and norms that don't exactly align that don't create that sense of coherence you know there is a beautiful theory it's actually called the sense of coherence when life is comprehensible manageable and meaningful that's when people derive a sense of coherence in life that's when things are aligned when that mindset is there then all the sort of manifestations you know everything around us that we see is just a manifestation of the mindset that built it right and so when I looked at this world it was clear to me that these disasters were going to strike and so to me it didn't come as a surprise but what I find most beautiful now is that people finally even though it comes as a sort of outside reminder and it is not necessarily always a proactive intrinsic sort of drive but it doesn't really matter which way it works you know it comes as an extrinsic pressure that people now have the ability to actually ponder in these things you know it was never really a topic almost a taboo you know to talk about mindset and the things that drive us and whether maybe certain things are misleading you know this kind of moral nihilism almost you know the idea that just everything is valid there is like seven billion truths out there I don't think so you know there are certain you know moral truths and that is expressed in this SDG framework which is a beautiful sort of normative horizon and there is an inmate compatibility ethically speaking between this you know these goals that create a utopian vision really there is now an opportunity to ponder in these things and give people you know justification to speak out you know things are much more possible now I see that in the research space the kinds of things that are being published are like sometimes quite radical you know and I salute that I think it's beautiful I think it's necessary to move away from this reductionist to a more holistic thinking and so while it hasn't been a surprise to me and while I was in a way quite prepared I think it's beautiful that you know even like my parents now you know are telling me on the phone they say Sebastian we see how everything is just sort of going into hell you know we're buying organic food now thank you for always telling us this and we've never really realized how important this is you know so I see there is a huge shift happening right now that's so beautiful to hear my listeners don't know this but we're going to tell them you are contributing the most wonderful piece and in a book that I'm doing it's called Menu B the collaboration with about 46 other authors, scientists, doctors, foodies, chefs from around the world farmers, agriculture us it is a beautiful work and you have submitted the organic mindset accelerating this shift towards sustainable food systems and it is a beautiful piece it is right up there in alignment you know we have contributors like Alan Savry and Carolyn Steele and Frith Holt Capra and many many other fabulous greats in in the space Mark Shepard who's restoration agriculturist and farmer himself just fabulous people in there who are well written well spoken and are activists they're environmentalists they're active in the space they're actually doing the work they've done it for years they practice that they they've grown food they know how how food grows and why it's such an important thing it's not just someone who has only studied at that and you you're the same way so you've you've actually started out with an apprenticeship and then got your journeymen and went into this food space you've been involved in numerous projects around the world and food and so it's a sheer honor to have you as part of the contribution but in some respects we want to tease a little bit with this podcast and I think you brought some slides with you and I don't know if if this is the right time that you would like to kind of tease and talk to us about this your thoughts and philosophies on this and maybe even a little bit of what you wrote if that's okay don't tease it too much we don't want to give away the book but because I really believe that the way you tie the SDGs and the way you do it is fabulous but I give you the screen if you want like to share some slides and maybe tell us a little story about what you contributed and what what you've been working on and what your thoughts and feelings are and I and I hope I'm I'm I'm precursing this right because a lot of people how are the SDGs connected to organic how are the SDGs tied to food and I've been talking about that since 2015 actually right before they came out you know uh Johann Rockstrom and many others in the food space were actually presenting a different form of SDGs say they're all tied to food they're basic that the basic resources of life the bio and the biosphere that's all tied to food and it's tied to the SDGs and so I'd love to hear from you now and maybe you can show our listeners for some of those on the audio you can go later and download the the pdf and view the video one but for those who are watching the video they get a little extra treat if you could maybe visually describe as well what we're seeing or audible describe it so that they can get a picture of what you're showing as well that would be nice well thank you mark um it really tickles me to speak with people who um who have such a compassion for this um sort of sacred knowledge really um and um what you do also is so important as an aggregator to bring all these voices uh to the fore I mean I'm following your stuff and um I'm um I'm really thankful for the work that you do mark and I'm thankful that you give me the opportunity to speak about my work a bit so I've been interested in um drivers in food systems it's a very elusive term the way it's been treated in in the scientific literature it's just kind of talking about well these general arenas like technology you know and things like global warming climate change um you know just these sort of general spaces out of which trends arise that are somehow shaping the way the food system works and to me it's been a very unsatisfactory kind of an answer to this driver question and I wanted to dig deeper and um when I asked myself and my team here and the organic food system community that is part of this beautiful program out of the UN on planet network you know what drives the uh organic food system or sustainable food system community you know is it sort of driven by the same trends that many food system actors feel like they just have to respond to or there may be other drivers you know and soon came to the realization that um there is a fundamental difference and the way that folks in the sustainable ag space and I mean the more deep sustainability ag space we all know how that word sustainability has gotten a bit deflated shall we say or inflated um there seems to be a difference in the way actors respond to these same big trends um you know many in the conventional agriculture space they are caught in these path dependencies you know one has to really uh also understand this with some compassionate think of a pork producer that just invested in like a huge you know pig barn for you know like a thousand animals or more um and you know invested a million dollars in in that regime potentially you know funded and financed through some other corporation who will then market the the produce or the the meat in that in that matter um this farmer isn't gonna so easily just switch to a regenerative practice because she or he just invested a ton of money and is kind of locked in now for the next 15 years at least and so I've had you know some really amazing conversations with friends in the conventional ag space you know one has to understand that it's not always so easy and one cannot just say or you guys ought to just change you know um but the sustainable and organic regenerative community um often seems to go about it in a wow well in a sort of more independent manner often not being the driven ones but actually driving something from their own sort of intrinsic conviction and that is also due to the fact that there are a lot of first-generation organic farmers most organic farmers have some sort of a degree they don't necessarily come from you know generations of agriculture you have which I find amazing and lucky I'm a first-generation farmer too you know my family has nothing to do with agriculture even though some crazy distant uncle of mine in the 60s drove a tractor from Hamburg all the way to Tuscany and started an herb and goat farm okay there's gotta have been some genes there but anyway so what I found was that there is an actual mindset there a real pattern so we've looked at you know food systems around the world and I'm talking global south and some European countries including also the US over 240 interviews with food system actors in that space and we found this incredible pattern and it was so beautiful just to see you know what drives these actors and if I may I could just show please do yes a little slide here and that is it starts out kind of building from just this basis here so I figured okay there's gotta be a way to portray the kind of food system mindset that we need from not just this driver perspective in terms of already you know existing manifestations of a mindset that produce these things but starting you know with the sort of original instance that actually creates the manifestations in the first place so I went back to the very mindset that creates the world that we live in and for that matter our food systems which you see on the left hand side is a sort of paradigm scale the sort of ego centric or anthropocentric mindset it's the dominant social paradigm you know humankind is the crown of creation and we are at the heart of this creation and nature is only of value to us when it delivers us economic benefits that's the sort of neoliberal dominant social paradigm the anthropocentric or ego centric mindset and on the top you see the eco centric mindset is the opposite really it's sort of when you look at us human beings as just one part of this creation of this world we live in and that nature must always have a place at the table in a sort of inclusive governance setting there's got to be the consideration you know as has been already intended in the earth charter and various sort of UN protocols this is nothing new this has been around since the 60s or 70s and as I said there is this sort of emergence now of these values and these insights of being of a fundamental value as we go toward the future and I just try to portray this in terms of this sort of equalizer model here so my theory is that SDG drivers the sustainable development goal drivers they emerge on this paradigm scale of certain essential variables or leverage points and these things that you see here agro biodiversity food system education production system food system governance consumption value chain ecosystem services these are the important leverage points that we need to engage with in a way that promotes you know favorable outcomes because we live in a world that produces outcomes that nobody wants you know the kinds of social inequities the kinds of ecosystem degradation that's going on these are just outcomes of many distributed synergies from driving forces that stem from mindset you know that produced these negative externalities and I believe we must think of biodiversity agro biodiversity in a more sovereign way think of the Via Campesina you know producing more diverse food in one region localization many of your speakers speak about localization of food you know the re-diversification of agriculture transformation in the education be that in schools where kids ought to really learn from an early age you know what ecology sustainability transformation means how personal health is connected with ecosystem health nobody can tell me that sustainability is an elitist thing it is the most equitable thing there is and unfortunately it has become this kind of elitist thing which is really a shame because it's the most empowering thing to everybody if people were only sensitized about this from an earlier age and not brainwashed and conditioned by this sort of neoliberal mindset that is expressed in so many different ways it's the hidden driver the ontology that is just hidden everywhere so transformative education resilient production systems of course we need agro ecological approaches of course we need to have regenerative farming systems it is so clear and it's becoming more and more scientifically evident the governance think of beautiful you know food policy you know networks councils all sorts of collective impact food alliances this is where it's heading we can't have these fragmented siloed governance regimes where food you know is not really talked about as the great convener but rather as just some thing you know that happens through a completely globalized supply chain so food system governance needs to be thought in an inclusive manner this rural urban nexus is the key word here but also consumption levels you know have to be a bit more moderate you know we have to find joy in moderation it's not this thing where we have to refrain from something and it's this great loss how they always talk about in German politics you know it's so tiring to always hear the same narrative when it comes to hey maybe we could actually you know gain some spiritual insights we can maybe have happier lives and maybe we can have deeper emotional insights more compassion more joy about the simple things in life you know that comes about through moderation and of course equitable value chains meaning that you know small farmers and so on have to become an integral part of value chains they can't no longer just be you know delivering the sort of commodities and being this anonymous invisible link in this chain they are the real heroes that tell the stories they are the guardians of ecosystems and of course ecosystem services have to be thought of as an integral part of agriculture not some sort of pollinator strips along the side of highly sprayed and monochromed fields you know that is just this kind of reductionist thinking John Eichert the amazing agronomist US scientist speaks about sustainability only arising from holes you know you can't have deep sustainability in this kind of patchwork of different measures so when you combine these things then you actually get this incredible effect that you have SDG driving qualities both on the on the egocentric mindset is things that are you know going in the wrong direction through balancing feedback through corrective measures are brought into a more you know equilibrium space and things that are working really well you know are supported through reinforcing feedback so these SDG drivers can really develop from both sides through both kinds of mindsets and through the cumulative driving action of these you know different leverage points you get these converging communities of practice which then lead to the sort of SDG performance as an emerging property really you know SDGs are an emerging property they develop on the basis of many distributed positive synergies you know we've spoken about negative synergies before that are vicious cycles we're talking here about virtuous cycles engaging in positive feedback you know delivering positive externalities and that's the sort of equalizing model that I believe so important that the SDGs finally bring a sort of equalizing effect you know everybody can actually partake in this this is not rocket science this is a very equitable affair people understand common sense people want to engage in this coherent approach gaining a sense of coherence from this and so if I may just show this one other model what I found in organic food systems they promote actually things like self-determination this beautiful motivational macro theory you know that people need to feel a sense of autonomy they need to feel a sense of competence and a sense of social relatedness the self-determination theory means if these needs are met people are intrinsically motivated and when you are intrinsically motivated because these fundamental needs are met then usually people engage in much more environmentally friendly behavior which leads to this sort of sense of coherence and the ecological altruism which is a real thing that people feel a need to be kind to nature they feel nature as part of their sort of soma body you know just as we find our body being the kind of first layer of you know feedback when something is misaligned in our mind and sometimes the body is the first that will you know actually come to suffer from that through some disease so is also the planet the next layer of this feedback you know and it probably goes on like that so sustainable happiness these are theories scientific theories equal spirituality and of course Maslow's beautiful theory of the hierarchy of needs his pyramid of needs didn't just end with self-actualization Maslow's pyramid of needs actually ended in self-transcendence in this later model from the 60s he added this next layer there is a real need of human beings to develop a sense of self-transcendence and so I find that these things really go hand in hand you get the stg performance based on our mindset that has many layers of sort of integrative levels you know these positive synergies that build and emerge to sort of new macro regimes of consciousness really and these two things completely go hand in hand and sustainable and regenerative agriculture systems are the perfect delivery system for these things they provide a catalyst in a way they pave the way they transport the narratives they inspire folks through the belly from the food and the you know the actual outcomes that we see in terms of biodiversity through the many sort of distributed positive outcomes and so to me it is crystal clear the fastest and best way to induce this transformation that we need is through the food system and regenerative and organic can actually be a powerful catalyst that transport the kinds of social and environmental norms that we need to change not just the technology which is the sort of outer manifestation it's kind of a crutch you know and it's a helpful crutch obviously but it can also do something on the inside and that's where that whole sufficiency thinking comes in we need to not only think about efficiency and consistency but also sufficiency so that's my wrap thanks for letting me unfold this no that is perfect I mean we're I'm going to have you wrap some more because it's you know the the being wrong the ninth of Thailand and he really came up with a similar model to the sdgs it's called this as a sufficiency model as well and when you talked about altruism the one of the oldest writers and theorists philosophers and in the food movement around animal liberation as Peter Singer he's also been on the podcast I believe he's coming up on on Thursday so tomorrow is his podcast but he has a whole whole website and theories and books on effective altruism so everything that you mentioned everything that you brought up is it's it's all reality and especially there what you said at the end about the fastest way in 2017 Professor Dr. Johann Rockstrom and I believe it was Cristiana Figueras or Patricia Espinosa so the Queen of the Cop the Conference of the Parties for the United Nations had the exponential roadmap of the sdgs to reach all the goals by 2030 well what do they mean about exponential well our world is really growing around us exponentially good bad and ugly I guess we could say but if you think about it what you said the fastest way is really through food and the sdgs because we eat three times a day we produce food every single day we process it whether it's good bad or ugly food where where it's our basic battery source it's our energy source it's a it's a life source and the basic need that is also a mazl's hierarchy needs so if we combined food with the sdgs I mean there you've got a formula for positive exponential growth I mean there could be negative exponential growth that is really horrific you know whether it's climate change or human suffering or whatever it is but on the flip side if we use it in the positive right ways and we apply the right systems and the right consciousness the the meaning and purpose or why and where do we want to go and how do we get that balance back what you showed so perfectly I think that you're absolutely spot on that is the fastest way and it's also the funnest way I love to eat I love to eat good food and I love to grow food I love to to watch it grow and be part of that biome and part of the the ecology of a food and agroecology of food basically and to watch it there's such a joy to see living systems and it's even more joyful you know I in the past have heard a lot about ugly fruits and ugly food you know and I I get the most joy about ugly stuff you know when it comes out unique and crazy I was like that's so cool you know that's life and so I really really appreciate you you're showing that and you're spot on and and you also tease quite a bit on what your contribution is and so that's why I'm so happy that you really made a culmination of menu B is not just about SDGs but it's about global food reform and how we shift that paradigm and how we see food and what are the tools and how can we really get that food systems that we want to see you know the local the resilience the regenerative the ones that really are healing our biome and healing us as humanity and your contribution really did that and so I thank you for that and bringing in a well rounded piece and very I don't know scientific it's it's it's very well written you know and I thank you for that I want to talk a little bit about now now that we've kind of we've all we almost went deep right in the beginning we didn't start out slow we're supposed to tease the listeners a little bit into this but we we've hit them hard and heavy and I guess that's okay humanity's been eating for you know 12,000 plus years on an agrarian society at least and as hunters and gatherers a lot longer than that before and so it's about time that we we wake up to the realization of how vital this is in our world and it's not it is the most vital thing more so than money and materialistic things or anything else is what connects us to nature and to our future you're working on some fabulous things for cities and it's called the city region food systems it's a un existing model that has been tested in over seven cities successfully and are some some results and some good feedback from those tests I'd like you to tell us a little bit more about that and kind of how you see that moving on further what you're you're going to be working on possibly in the future and and is that something that also you want to kind of replicate around the world and why thank you well first may I say that I always find that the most moving thing when you speak with folks around the world no matter you know where it is really you know to an indigenous farmer from India or you know some person that discovered natural farming in in Haiti or in the in the jungle of of the amazon with indigenous communities we speak with one tongue when it comes to this now where does this come from isn't that the most striking phenomenon that there seems to be such a powerful resonance with this cognition of which is really expressed in this systems thinking which is a mindset in itself and it's the the best way and the most un-dogmatic way to actually approach a sense of ecospirituality shall we say you know Capra writes about that one of the co-authors in your amazing book menu B which will come out soon he speaks about you know once we understand these connections you know once we engage in this sort of systems thinking in a sustainability mindset we realize that the ecosystem is the most spiritual in its essence you know and it's the it's it's such a unifying message I find you know that it is actually an objective truth there is moral truths and there are truths of cognition and people understand these things and they are deep inside us I believe we are hardwired for sustainability nobody can tell me otherwise yes we are conditioned by stuff and you know facades built up and you know we often just defend that paradigm you know you know just until the anomalies begin to accumulate that you know it just can no longer be defended just the yeah the the sheer vehemence that many people defend this neoliberal mindset with is really striking you know and on the other hand when you see people you know that have been touched and and and this drive has been liberated you know this this drive toward self-transcendence and toward cognition and and and and this awareness and consciousness I find it incredible you know how unified these insights are and you know a little sharper somebody you well know I'm sure you yeah he speaks of these you know he makes the metaphor of the operating systems you know and that we are approaching a sort of 4.0 operating system currently still in a sort of outcome centered kind of mindset but soon we will be thinking more in terms of co-creation you know nature positive an eco-centric mindset food as medicine businesses having a purpose you know these things are the inevitable sort of journey that we're on you know sometimes I almost would like to sort of riff on Luther King's famous dictum the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice right what a thing to say you could all say that for sustainability too you know I think it is inevitable even evolutionary biologists are saying there is no such thing as survival of the fittest that was good for a bumper sticker but it was grossly misinterpreted you know totally wrong luckily you your episode 140 on the podcast series but 139 is Dr. Fritov Capra he's right before you so not only he's right in the book we also did a podcast and he talked about many of the things in a much different way as as he so eloquently does than you so I think this is perfect alignment that that you you also refer to him and you know obviously ultra-sharmer theory you and MIT and all his work that he's done over the years and continues to do fabulous work you're spot-on so I love to love to see that you're you're bringing that up I also feel that over the years sustainability has been bastardized in many respects so chemical companies like Bayer and Monsanto are using the word sustainability fossil fuel companies are using the world's sustained they have nothing to do with sustainability and but I think that it's ingrained in us and we are making this shift and it's really a way that connects us back regeneration and connects us back to nature and to our world and so I love that you you bring that up I really do absolutely and we need to get on board with you know those global players I mean from a systems point of view it is it is indispensable that these large corporate players make the necessary shifts in their value chains you know the Nestle's of the world you know the large discount supermarket chains Bayer Monsanto launched this carbon initiative you know and it's it's really well it's also heartwarming in a way to see you know that they are talking about bios stimulants you know as new products you know in their portfolio and enrolling farmers in these registrars you know for sort of increasing soil organic matter and in soils there's some amazing work going on in the US right now with the it's always hard for me and I don't know if you have this feeling as well so I almost cringe and pull back when I hear that you know I want those companies to make the transition and to to reform and change and and to better our world I think it's every individual's mission to being in selfless service to life and to our earth and to actually leave the planet better than we found it to clean it up and to actually have it be one of regeneration if we're a business that we actually you know do good for the world we leave it better with more global hectare with more resources than we found it because we're not just an extractive taker and and and a abuser of this world and but when I hear you know companies like buyer Monsanto or someone even like Nestle is recently Nestle and even through Paul Hawkins new book Regeneration you know I'm like Nestle the the big plastic and you know just didn't give a crap about many things but now they've realized they were hurting their own farmers the old people that were they were getting the resources to produce their products from and they want to they want to heal those relationships and they want to heal those people and they want to heal us so right now that gut feeling is saying okay I'm gonna trust them I'm gonna try but it's hard for me and I don't know if you that feel the same way oh absolutely the thing is you know when you look at just how all the large corporations now are hiring you know sustainability managers and directors for bio economy circular economy you know it it shows you that you know after that famous letter by Larry Fing from BlackRock you know sort of that your rating will go down if you don't you know shape up in terms of you know resilience of your operations and so on it's it's on the one hand nice to see and I think just that sort of narrative and the sheer mechanism of getting into that space will sort of steer them in that direction but I'd like to also say it took me you know I'm in my 40s now and it took me a long time to acquire the kind of knowledge that I have now it's hard work you know how they say that like relationship work and stuff it takes effort and so on you know and it's the same with these sort of deep sustainability insights you have to kind of earn them you know you have to really you know wrestle with that and then rub against other realities and and enter dialogue and make these insights for yourself and I just you know would caution that you know this the screen washing mess is always a big risk you know but I mean I trust that there is the kind of pressure that will sort of force these companies to but on the same token it's the sustainability leaders or the the leadership in these corporations that is sort of already much more pronounced than with the general public you know they are among the early adopters you can say businesses are sort of already there they've agreed on a sustainability mindset they've agreed on environmental social governments they've agreed on all these protocols you know protocols you know that will foster diversity and and and environmental justice in in their operations and so on and so that's a really interesting development that's going on but I just would like to remind folks that it takes work you know and you have to really wrestle with it in an authentic way or else you just get this sort of lip service and you know nobody's really served by that but what I see in these approaches such as the city region food system model that's been advanced by the FAO and Ruwa Foundation it's a beautiful approach to get in on this more territorial approach you know to food system sustainability and it's a lovely mechanism to enable this this rural urban nexus and to develop the kinds of governance mechanisms that enable the sort of top down and bottom up kind of approach that is necessary not to create some hundred percent food sovereignty who wants that you know who wants to go without their chocolate let's say in the global north or coffee and things like that you know that'll always be there but I mean the kinds of things that can reasonably be produced and farmed in the sort of nearby territory of metropolitan areas without the kinds of tradeoffs obviously you don't want to grow you know tomatoes in Vermont in in January when you need tons of artificial lighting and heating and then it indeed would actually be much more climate friendly and effective to ship them in from you know Nicaragua or Florida for them but still there are a lot of things you know like if I look at my supermarkets zucchini's you know carrots tomatoes cucumbers coming in from from Almeria southern Spain right now really when you know we could grow all these things and actually boost the local economy you know and create beautiful social entrepreneurship out of regenerative agriculture and these city region food systems were for the first time really giving a methodology to developing these kinds of food system spaces and I think there would be an amazing platform to launch you know SDG certificates to really get into the verification game on how equitable supply chains how sovereignty and the agro biodiversity how integration in the environmental services how transformation in the education the things I talk about in my leverage point model can really drive change and can be verified through mechanisms you know that we have through different moderators participatory guarantee systems peer reviewed processes but also technology obviously to actually create real interventions against this sort of baseline scenarios and could provide especially metropolitan areas in the global south that are struggling for meaningful foreign direct investments to actually get in on the green economy get real on the you know food system narrative and actually you know engage in entire metropolitan areas in these positive synergies so I'm really excited on working together with the Milan urban food policy packed folks with the global alliance for organic districts the Asian local governments for organic agriculture over 250 municipalities in South Korea and India have declared to go 100 percent organic in their municipalities this is some NGO of mayors can you believe it the Asian local governments for organic agriculture Sri Lanka has now declared to go organic you know and carbon amazing and so these kinds of approaches they need sort of quantification methodologies they need verification mechanisms and so I really quite like the work of these you know standards such as you know global gold standard or vera folks you have interviewed on your show I think it's important that they also understand the importance of these public private partnerships you know how you know ag companies but municipalities and smallholder farmers can develop these kinds of new clean development mechanisms really and food hubs are such an important motor for these local food systems again really good helpful robust invention of the U.S. you know if the U.S. gets serious about stuff they really go for it you know the innovative entrepreneurial spirit of the U.S. is really remarkable you know the way they've pioneered this community supported agriculture movement around the world and these food hubs now since the last 15 years since the beginning of the 2000s these beautiful aggregation hubs you know how to actually in a very consequential manner aggregate food from a geographical radius and just market that food within that region that is a real game changer what food hubs can do they can work with local farmers they can create regional planning you know the food hub does the marketing and the last mile you know working with hospitals all this sort of public procurement you know colleges and old folk homes and you know actually developing consistent robust supply chains for local food that individual farmers and gardeners could never stem by themselves imagine a university cafeteria having to deal with 20 different farmers the one delivering pumpkins the other one potatoes the next one greens it doesn't work that way so these food hubs are an important aggregator to make this sort of local supply chain work so they are real engines for territorial food systems and I think we have all the parts you know to actually develop meaningful localization if we just put it together in robust programs and attach the right indicator frameworks and verification mechanisms to really you know move the needle in the this age of you know climate change and finding solutions this can be a tremendous contribution I think but the huge contribution is creating local economies local futures stability not only community food webs but all sorts of logistics this bringing production and manufacturing back where where the community is a lot when when I hear city and regional food systems I get really excited because that's really how most cities and communities formed was originally around food systems and now especially humberg most of the food systems have moved way out in the countryside and industrial areas far from the city so humberg gets about 40 percent of all its produce and vegetables from the Netherlands and then another 40 percent from alamiria where you just said in Spain that's not a lot of resilience that's not a lot of stability they get a lot from the harbor as well a lot from turkey and and other places because it's a hub and a harbor it comes from all around the world if something happens to to the harbor if something happens to humberg we've had a couple floods over the years and and things where humberg is shut down for a little while yeah those people those people can't continue to bring that in and and then all of a sudden you know there's these food deserts and food scarcity and and we lose that sovereignty that we really want to achieve and so how through victory gardens or small food hubs or these markets you know we do have luckily some nice food markets where some farms around humberg bring it in but really how do we get back to that how do we strengthen those food webs yeah and make it work and how to also involve you know partners in the global south that are dependent on these exports you know one wouldn't want to stop many of these supply chains but one has to also safeguard that in those places folks are also experiencing a sense of food sovereignty you know i know a friend of mine she is an African activist in Uganda and she has started to work with you know hundreds of small holders outside of Kampala the capital of Uganda to aggregate all the produce and then she talks with the farmers and says okay this one here is great for export but this one here could actually be beautiful for the local markets and so she inspired a bunch of supermarket chains in Kampala to link with these small holders which hadn't been the case before you know and she found an incredible model to both serve the local market and create a diverse food environment for these you know organic fruits and vegetables this is an organic project and also an export platform so I think it's super important to have a solidarity-based approach with you know communities agrarian communities in Romania in southern Spain in many countries of the global south to engage in this trade but it has to be meaningful you know on both sides we can't just you know have farmers producing these sort of you know boutique crops and they themselves don't actually you know they've never tasted what this amazing coffee really is like you know and we're enjoying our third wave specialty coffee you know it can't be like that you know and so that's why these value chains as complex as they are they have to be properly understood and you know real ESG based sort of standards and there are many standards such as the climate community and biodiversity standards by Vera have to be applied in these value chains you know so that we can enter into meaningful trade because you know nobody wants to go without the good stuff you know yeah and it is good stuff some of us um really need to develop a taste bud and understand that that um there there is some really good stuff out there uh I don't know if you know my full story but um when I was a young father a young young adult I um was was really fat and kind of overweight and numb towards towards the world and if you would ask me back then about sustainability or certain things um I was almost numb because I didn't have that taste for for all sorts of good food even though I traveled the world and have a real great experience through my family in many respects but I was numb in many respects just because disconnected from that biome truly um how I should have been even though I was farming even though I was connected with my family in those things there was still a disconnect um and also that longing in some respects that farm life is boring I want to get the heck away from the farm I want to get to the city where life and and you know technology and and all these these fun things are happening and going on and and uh boy living out underneath the stars and connected to the animals and that us uh boy that could be a little boring you know and a lot of people run into that and we actually have one of the stories in the book from Teresa Lieb um who uh is originally from a German farming community and she now lives in San Francisco and works for green biz um and as a writer for them and things but she couldn't wait to get off the farm and get into a new lifestyle she wanted to be surrounded by people and the modern societies but she tells it in a different way as well because as she got into the cities and this is kind of where the city regional food systems really comes back into it she wants to eat organic she wants to eat fresh fruits and vegetables she wants to start but those community food hubs and the community food webs and the farmers markets that's where she wants to get she wants to buy from Whole Foods and she wants to get things that are good you know um for your health she doesn't want to let live the fast food society um kind of kind of lifestyle which you see not far away from where she's at in in San Francisco from when you go to LA there's food deserts and a lot of insecurity around food and so how do you get those people who you know I'm sure that a lot of our listeners I'm sure a lot of the people who will read the book like I don't want to become a farmer I don't want to become an organic agriculture farmer or you know I just I'd like to do that in the city I've got a job at the bank or I've got a job here you know and that's their lifestyle and they can't see this this future but they also can't see themselves becoming an urban farmer or kind of having a better connection and so somehow we have to find a balance for for these you know seven eight billion people on our planet that I by no means have the feeling that that all of us will become farmers but I I do have a feeling that will become more connected to our food which is the consciousness that you talk about and I I know you've touched upon it a lot but I would I'd like to know if you've said all there is to say or your thoughts or feelings on this transformation towards a more consciousness in sustainability and how that connection is established or how it happens and even for those who don't want to be the farmers who want to live in urban city and and and San Francisco work for Apple or for Google or someone else but still have the that connection somehow. Exactly well in this scientific research project that I've done with these 240 interviews in 11 countries around the globe we didn't interview just farmers we interviewed food system actors you know including educators including consumers including traders logistics folks and farmers and we found that just by the act of participating in this territorial organic food system which were those 11 cases that we looked at it provided an entry point for folks to develop this kind of awareness you know it's the perfect entry drug if you will you know it's the sensitizing you know a sensitizing effect that happens and there are of course many different entry points you know people get it through experiencing yoga or I don't know there is this thing called forest bathing now you know the most random kinds of mindfulness acts can actually trigger this awareness you know and it's an entry point and one has to be aware of the feedback that comes to you it's really about developing this exquisite sense for feedback you know and it starts you know with your body but it also starts with your emotional intelligence you know that you become aware of your motives you know that you just apply this almost radical honesty about your own motives and don't just you know believe in everything you feel you know I sometimes say I can feel literally wrong about something I know this sounds really harsh I don't mean to be offensive but I found this for myself just because I feel something so strongly doesn't mean that it is true you know we put so much emphasis on how we feel but if you know the sort of will forces aren't aligned with our reason or our higher sort of self you know then we can sort of feel all sorts of things that are kind of meaningless you know and so I think that food systems and the organic food space never mind if you enter it through educational pathways or as a consumer or partaking in urban gardening projects or any sort of campaigns or being part of a co-op is just a powerful entry point because the organic and regenerative agroecological space this narrative is loaded it's a loaded paradigm it means it transports a lot of very very meaningful narratives and norms you know that trigger this kind of journey you know really it's a journey you know and you find that it takes on a trajectory of its own and you just have to allow that you know you have to sort of commit to unlearning certain things and become alert to this feedback you know and these at first gentle positive feedback loops that build you know and then it just becomes a beautiful cascade of awareness building and so I think everybody can do that you know I'm just saying that the food system space is one of the more powerful ways to enter into that I love that absolutely love it I have four more questions for you and then then we're done the hardest question and I'm sure you have heard it before since you've listened to the other podcast and I usually ask it as as the burning question WTF but for you I believe it would be better to phrase it in a different way and that is what does a world that works for everyone look like for you I've just given a seminar with some 20 students on this we called it a utopian workshop you know um just sort of starting with the organic agriculture regenerative agriculture and if one were to allow the many synergies that intuitively evolve from that where would that lead us what SDGs would be triggered by that if we just allowed it to unfold literally and through this analytical exercise we found what the food system science has already sort of confirmed as an emerging consensus that literally all of the SDGs will be triggered through that you know if there is not one that will not be positively affected by this development and so I believe that if we would just strengthen these kinds of impulses that are going toward post-growth and so on stabilizing successful economies in the industrialized nations you know and focusing more on the kinds of values that build you know global commons that work for everybody um could really take us into a space where we discover a different kind of progress a progress that may not be as loud you know a progress within you know that is just as powerful and it will unleash I think the kind of entrepreneurial and social entrepreneurship that you know that will be fostered if these driving forces are liberated you know because they will liberate something within us and they will liberate something without in the world surrounding us and so I can't wait you know to live in this world that becomes ever more aware of these subtle kinds of interconnections you know and I'm not afraid that it would be a sort of overly synchronized world where everybody just sort of like a robot preaches sustainability mantras no I believe there is so much diversity in there there is so much innovation in there that it'll actually you know lead us to the sort of true potential of us human beings you know as we approach this journey of of transformation and maybe detecting sort of meaning in life you know so yeah I really agree yeah there there's a lot of meaning detectable in a journey like that and exactly what you described had we had started in 2015 to really just say well we've got the SDGs and let's get going on them we would have had 15 years now we're in a very similar place to you and I are both Americans where where John F Kennedy was when he was speaking at Congress he said before this decade is out we have to put men on the moon we've got a similar type of a thing before this decade is out my whole dream and desire is that we realize the the potential realize the beauty in the sustainable development goals in the Paris Agreement of achieving that and reaching that and implementing them and that it's even if we start out kind of not knowing fully why how or understanding it as we get on that journey it's a it's a journey of discovery and hope and and excitement and and I've just seen nothing but super positive results come back whether it's indigenous peoples people in urban settings or farmers who who have changed their business models their lifestyle models to to look at the world in a different way and so my question to you is can you maybe finish the sentence and that is before this decade is out you will or you would like to see this happen um what I wouldn't want is a scenario that Harari describes in his book homo deos um where this artificial intelligence you know will aid us in our cognition um I don't like scenarios where people are exploring Mars as the next habitat for humanity I would like there to be a more equalizing effect and really bringing everybody along because there is no point if only a few cross the finish line you know and having some blissful life experience it only makes sense if we all advance together and cross that finish line together absolutely love that and and um that I mean that's almost similar to the answer you gave what does a world that works for everyone look like and um it's very similar to that because um true it truly is you know what does a world that works for everyone there is this beautiful thing that I want to read before I ask you the last question and I don't know if you're familiar with Buckminster Fuller he wrote in his his book operating manual for spaceship earth in the inside cover of that book he kind of wrote his why his mission statement his purpose and it's so beautiful because um the book was written written in uh 1969 was the first publication you have to think about you know it was a year before I was born and that he also at that point in time wrote this book you know operating manual for spaceship earth but then put a why and a purpose for humanity and then I said to make the world work for 100 of humanity in the shortest possible time through spontaneous cooperation without ecological offense or the disadvantage of anyone and when you said what you said just reminded me of that and you know we've got such a wonderful spaceship earth and a wonderful home we shouldn't be looking anywhere else we should really think about regeneration and what we can do to to do the right thing to connect and harmonize with with our planet and our biome and our earth because I believe that every every way that every scenario that you can run out it just comes out so nice exactly future generations for all of us um even in half-hearted efforts I've seen some very positive outcomes when we interact in in certain great ways with with nature and our biome that really come back nicely for sure it's the it's this idea of sustainability as a form of enlightened self-interest you know um the economist Paul Collier uh wrote about this too what can save this world is enlightened self-interest and compassion you know sustainability is really this sort of most altruistic form of egotism if you will because it is actually benefiting ourselves you know it makes us smarter it makes us you know more content happier and produces the right kinds of outcomes so to me that's always been a very nice sort of narrative you know I love that the last question I have for you is what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start um I knew you were gonna ask that question it's such a good one well my professional journey started when I was 19 as a conscientious objector on this organic farm and from then it sort of started out and um you know I um I wasn't in a space at the time to uh to necessarily um appreciate the um the maturing the um the time it takes to develop robust insights and to become a good servant leader you know um and I'm still struggling with that you know but I'm learning um more and more that you know just the mindset alone doesn't really help that much you know it's nice to have this holistic mindset but what we need are solutions and is a real sort of uh excellency in the way uh of governance and implementing um multi stakeholder dialogue and engaging in compassionate exchanges and um and truly understanding the other side you know this compassion piece is just as important and uh you know I'm I'm learning this now you know I'm getting better at this and I was such an eco warrior you know in those early years farming and you know conquering the world through organic farming and biodynamic agriculture and so um you know I really enjoy these later years in my career now where I get to hang out with people like you and very chilled uh and deeply developed personalities that have taught me so much about you know leadership so yeah I wish thank you Sebastian thank you so much for letting us all inside of your ideas it's been a sheer pleasure unbelievable your ideas are fabulous uh the the your your two slides that you showed us were unbelievable on the way you described them I'm so glad to know you and I really thank you for your time this is all I have but it's also your opportunity if there's anything you didn't get to say or you would like to say as a departing goodbye this is your chance no we're good I'm I'm super happy and energized after this conversation thank you so much Mark thank you very much and we'll see and talk to each other very soon definitely be around