 for joining us. This is the last of the presentations for day two of the three plenary days at the CNI spring virtual meeting and I'm Cliff Lynch. I'm the director of the Coalition for Networked Information. I'll be introducing the session briefly. I do want to note that along with the three plenary days yesterday today and tomorrow that will conclude the virtual meeting. We had a lot of project briefing sessions last week which included both synchronous sessions and pre-recorded sessions. I'd invite you to explore the on-demand pre-recorded sessions. There's a lot of very good material in there and I would also remind you that this session as with all the sessions at the spring virtual meeting is being recorded it will subsequently be publicly available. A couple of quick mechanical things before I introduce our speaker and the topic briefly. There is a Q&A button at the bottom of your screen and there is also a chat box. I'd invite you to use the chat box as well to make comments or pose questions as we go along. We will try and get through as many questions as possible at the end of the presentation. I also would note that there is a closed captioning tool and please use that if it's helpful to you. I think those are all the mechanical things I need to say by way of introduction. So let me turn to the topic. So first off let me say there's bad news and there's good news. The bad news is that I learned today that Kerry Jordan, the Executive Director of the Carpentries, is ill and was unable to do this presentation today and I'm really sorry about that because she is a wonderful presenter and for those of you who haven't had an opportunity to meet her I think you would really have enjoyed it and I hope you'll have another chance at some point in future. But that's the bad news. The good news is that the Associate Director of the Carpentries, Aaron Becker, is here with us and will be doing Kerry's presentation and so you will still have a wonderful opportunity to learn about the Carpentries, its program, and how you can engage with them. The Carpentries is a really important undertaking and many of our institutions are in fact already relying on them although I'm not sure that a lot of them have really a full understanding of what the Carpentries is doing and my hope today is that Aaron will be able to assist us all in gaining that understanding and then field some questions about how you might collaborate or engage. So with that let me just welcome Aaron, thank her for being with us and for stepping up to this on short notice. I know how that can happen and turn it over to you. Thank you so much Cliff for the introduction and thanks everyone for being here today. I know I've got some pretty big shoes to fill with Kerry being gone but she has prepared us a nice presentation and some activities so we'll be going through those. First I want to just start by repeating my name is Aaron Becker I'm Associate Director with the Carpentries and Cliff gave a little bit of background about the Carpentries. I'm going to talk more about who we are and what we do. My work within the Carpentries is really around helping others build confidence in the skills they need whether that's data skills or software skills to solve problems in a collaborative and culturally relevant way and what I'm particularly excited to do in this presentation is share with you not only some information about the Carpentries but also ways in which you all can partner and engage with the Carpentries. Next so a little bit of an outline for the talk I'm going to give you a little bit of an introduction to myself and my journey to the Carpentries followed by a brief history of the Carpentries to give you some context for who we are and what we do and from there I'm going to go through three of the major opportunities that you have for partnering or engaging with the Carpentries and then at the end we'll have some time for questions and feedback and I think Cliff mentioned please do throughout the talk put your questions in the Q&A and I assume Cliff will interrupt me if we need to do some Q&A in the middle. Next please so a little bit about me and my journey to the Carpentries. Next I'm originally from a very small town in rural Minnesota population 1200 I attended St. Cloud State University in Minnesota before moving to California and attending Cuesta Community College in 2008 I transferred to the University of California Davis where I completed my bachelor's degree and my PhD both in microbiology and I ended up loving Northern California so much but I stayed on for a postdoc at UC Davis in biology education research where my research focused on understanding the pathways by which evidence-based teaching methods were or were not adopted among graduate teaching assistants in instructor biology courses. After that postdoc I joined Data Carpentry which at that point was a separate organization as their associate director in 2015 and continued on as associate director with the Carpentries so I've now been with Carpentries for almost six years. Next a very brief history of the Carpentries I'm not going to go through everything that's on the slide the Carpentries is a nonprofit project that trains people in software development and data science skills for more effective work and career development. We focus on building community and local capacity for teaching and learning data skills and perspectives to put it simply our vision is to be the leading inclusive community teaching data and coding skills. Through our programs we are working to dismantle the broken power structures and resource distribution that negatively impact marginalized communities around the world. We're empowering diverse groups of people to work with data and code and the Carpentries has built its foundation to build global capacity on values that have and will continue to shape the way we grow inclusive computational communities. I'm passionate about this organization because our values align with my personal values and my hope for each and every one of you is that you're able to use your work to make an impact in an area that you're passionate about. Next please. So why the name Carpentries? So Carpentries means the basics like learning how to nail two boards together or put up a wall straight. The Carpentries project includes three lesson programs that teach the basics software Carpentry data Carpentry and library Carpentry. Software Carpentry workshops are for people who are learning to code to develop software or to learn best practices in software development. Software Carpentry lessons are domain agnostic and teach the Unix shell coding with either R or Python and version control using get. Data Carpentry workshops are for people who work with data in their research and want to learn how to code and organize their projects to work more effectively and reproducibly with data and library Carpentry workshops are for people working in library and information related roles who want to build software and data skills. The workshops are domain agnostic through data set so the data sets that are used will be familiar to library staff. All of our workshops are offered over two full days or more recently with the pandemic for half days. They're hands-on interactive provided in a friendly learning environment with an enforced community developed code of conduct and are focused on teaching the foundational skills and perspectives for working with software and data. Next I always like to show a picture of our team because they take great pride in the team that we've built over the last six years of the Carpentries. We are a small remote team with 15 members but we are making a huge global impact. Our team members live in the United States, Canada, Estonia, France, Germany, and South Africa. Next. Those 15 core team members support our volunteer community through ongoing work including event administration, assessment, and infrastructure work. We also help to bring together community members with similar interests to catalyze their work and make it more effective and we develop initiatives and resources to serve the community. We organize our work in programmatic teams and we use a distributed decision-making process with horizontal and collaborative leadership. Next. Since 2012 the Carpentries has run almost 3,000 workshops in 71 countries on all seven continents including Antarctica. Unfortunately that doesn't show up on the map here and we've trained over 3,020 volunteer instructors to deliver our 33 collaboratively developed open source lessons to 70,000 novice learners at our 90 member organizations and beyond. This map shows the locations of trained Carpentries instructors who teach workshops all over the world. Next please. Now that you know a little bit more about the Carpentries, I'd like to share with you some of the partnership and engagement opportunities we have to offer. Next. We believe that collective experience and collaborative knowledge building are proven strategies to teach programming. I will now show how the Carpentries approaches teaching our workshops and how you can get involved with teaching with the Carpentries. Next. One way to build a positive classroom environment is to create a space that cultivates and encourages learners' motivation. Our first approach to teaching at the Carpentries can be summarized with a statement we teach the most immediately useful skills. Our instructors resist the urge to get through everything or pack extra details into their explanations. We know that people learn best when they care about a topic and believe that they can master it. In the case of teaching programming, many people understand the value of programming but find it intimidating and struggle with how to get started. That presents us with a problem because believing something is hard can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So in our workshops we have adopted a teach the most immediately useful skill first approach. We try to have learners do something that they think is useful in their daily work within 15 minutes of starting each lesson. It not only motivates them, it builds their confidence in us as the instructors so that if it takes longer to get to something they find useful in a later topic, they'll still persist the lesson. To do this, our instructors need to go through the work of identifying what to teach first or whether to teach something at all. And a tool that we use when thinking about choice of curricular content is this graph. So think of this graph where axes are labeled mean time to master and usefulness once mastered. Everything that is quick to master and immediately useful should be taught first. Things in the opposite corner that are hard to learn or have little near-term application do not belong. Next please. So we're now going to move over to the collaborative document that Diane has put in the chat. If you don't have access to the document, please let us know in the chat or the Q&A. We have a task to kind of apply some of what we saw on the previous slide to think about a task you did this week that uses one or more of the skills that you have learned in a class. So something you've learned in the past, think about how you've applied it in the past week and explain how you would use that task or a simplified version of it as an exercise or an example in class. This is question one in the document. Share a task you learned in a course and how it can be adapted using the teach most immediately useful skills framework. Please claim a line for your answer. Put some of your thoughts down and don't forget to sign in and put your name and Twitter if you want at the top of the document. We'll take maybe three minutes for this. Take one more minute. These are all wonderful examples. Thank you for sharing. I'm seeing some suggestions around tools that we cover in carpentries workshops like open refine and topics like cleaning data which are also a key part of our content. I'm also seeing things that I'm not as familiar with like data security. So you can see that this what to teach first concept can be applied across a wide range of different disciplines and contexts. Next please. So we've talked just a very little bit so far about deciding what to teach. I'm going to talk a little bit about how the carpentries teaches once we decide what we're teaching. One of the cornerstones of our teaching practices is live coding. So our instructors do not use slides to deliver content. Instead they work through the lesson material interactively typing in the code or the instructions with the workshop participants following along and doing the same things on their own computers. So let's watch a short example so you can see what I mean. Go ahead. We still are in the data shell creatures directory. With ls we can find out that we have these two files pacilist.ov and unicorn.at. Now we want to show I want to show you how to use Unix for loop to get the first three lines of these files shown. We do it like this for file name in pacilist. Now you can see that the prompt changes from the dollar sign to the bigger end sign. This is the Unix shell telling us that we're not yet done with the full command. We need more. In this case we type hat minus n three to the file name. End up. And what we have to get is the first three lines of pacilist.ov and the first two lines of unicorn. As expected. The way it works is that the shell takes the pacilist.ov and puts it in the file name variable and goes on and runs the hat minus n three pacilist.ov. Loops back up. Takes unicorn.ov. Second item in the list. Puts that in one line. Runs again. Hat minus n three unicorn.ov. Never done. We get this result. Now we chose file name as variable name because it makes a lot of sense. Always useful. You don't have to use that word. You could use another variable name for example x for x in pacilist.ov. Unicorn.ov. Two minus n three for x this time. So I made a typo. I typed hat n instead of hat. And then Unix shell says I don't recognize this command. Command not found. And it does it twice because it went through the loop two times. Now earlier I already showed you how you can use the arrow up key to repeat the last run command. But I can do it here as well. Again. But then you'll see that the shell takes the whole command that puts it on one line instead of four lines. This is the other way to write a shell for it. Unix for it. Four x in pacilist.ov. Unicorn.ov. Semicolon. Do hat n minus n three for x semicolon done. You can try this to remember how to do this but I predict you it will get the semicolon run. Trust me I've been there. So I would still start out by doing it this way. But in this case it allows me to quickly write my typo and we're back at the first three lines of each file. Once again a variable name is not too restricted. You could also use animal in pacilist.unicorn minus n three this time. Animal. And again we get the same. So this is a video that we use to illustrate some of the good features in live coding to our instructors during the training session. If you would like to see this video in more context along with an example of ad live coding please check out the link that I've put into the collaborative document on the bottom of page one. I'd like us to so this is an example of good ways to implement the concept of live coding. We use in our workshops live coding and frequent formative assessments to check in with the learners and see how much they're actually learning and able to apply from the content that we're delivering. We train our instructors to be very mindful of the limitations of short-term memory and work to minimize the cognitive load that they're imposing on the learners by introducing new topics. Next please. So I'm going to flip it back to you and do another exercise in the document. List some advantages and challenges of participatory live coding from both a learner's perspective and an instructor's point of view. And can you use this approach and how would you use this approach in your own teaching? Please share your thoughts on page two of the collaborative document. We'll take another three or four minutes here. Okay I'm seeing some really great thoughts. Some of the things I'm reading here make me think we might have some carpentries instructors in the audience. Thank you for adding your thoughts. Please take time to go back and read other people's responses as well. I'm going to go ahead and move on to kind of an overview of some of the advantages and disadvantages that the carpentries community has collectively learned over the past 10 years of using a live coding approach in our workshops. So some advantages are watching a program being written is more compelling, it's more interesting than watching someone page through slides. It enables instructors to be more responsive to questions from the learners. When a slide deck is like a railway track, you have to stay on that track, participatory live coding allows instructors to go off-road and follow the interests that their learners in the room have. Live coding engages lateral knowledge transfer, so participatory live coding lets people transfer tacit knowledge. People learn more than we realized, more than we intended to teach them when we teach by when they're able to learn from watching how instructors do things. A key point and one I like to emphasize when I'm teaching this content, it slows the instructor down. If the instructor has to type the code, she can only go twice as fast as the learners instead of 10 times faster than the learners. It also, and this is a key point, it helps the learners see what to do about mistakes and that instructors who they see as experts also make mistakes, so it helps them see how to diagnose and correct those. There are some challenges too with live coding and we recognize these and try to work around these in our instructional environments. It does require instructors to be able to improvise somewhat when things go wrong or when learners ask questions that are not directly addressed to the text of the lesson. It can be hard sometimes for learners to listen and type at the same time due to something called the split attention effect, so it's why we emphasize for our instructors that it's really important that they first explain what they're going to do then they say what they're typing as they're typing it and then they explain at the end again why they did it and someone pointed out also that it may be difficult for instructors to who might not be comfortable with this teaching style. So some bonuses, some disadvantages we as a community do really find that the bonuses outweigh the disadvantages and we really rely on this teaching principle in our teaching. Next please. Another approach that we use in our pedagogical model is exploring the differences between novices and experts. We teach our instructors to respect the novice experience. Most of the learners in our workshops are novices in the tools that we're teaching. Our instructors work to foster a growth mindset in the language that they use and in the way that they interact with the learners. We emphasize that building a relaxed and welcoming positive workshop experience is one of the most important things we can provide in our workshops. Next. Another approach we use in our teaching is how we think about errors. One of the barriers to learning is the tendency to want to avoid making mistakes. Mistakes are associated with negative emotions which leads to learners being afraid of making them. One thing we train our instructors to do is something called positive error framing which is the process of presenting errors as an integral part of the learning process and using those errors as teaching opportunities. Error framing encourages the learners to understand that making errors is a valuable learning opportunity instead of always having negative consequences. Error framing has shown to be useful in learning complex tasks such as programming and data organization and management and the things that we teach in our workshops. We expect that learners will continue to learn the materials that were introduced in the workshop after our workshop and they will have to do the bulk of their learning independently using the foundation that we've introduced in our two-day workshop. So we coach our instructors to embrace errors as an opportunity to model healthy and effective responses. One of the main differences between experts, if you could go back to the previous slide please, between experts and novices. Experts are better at diagnosing and correcting errors than novices but the reality is that most of the learners in our workshops are novices and or competent practitioners which is this intermediate case here. As an instructor, if you run into an error while teaching it's very important to be explicit about the process you're using to diagnose and correct that error even if it might seem trivial to you like a typo or you put a space or a semicolon in the wrong place as he did in the video. We all have an expert awareness gap so normalizing making errors in front of people and demonstrating how to recover productively from those errors helps people be motivated to continue learning. Four or two slides. So to summarize here are four strategies that we use when teaching other carpentries and that you can use in your own teaching. Teach immediately useful skills first, use live teaching, fewer slides, and frequent formative assessments. Respect the novice experience by explicitly addressing motivation and normalize errors and demonstrate recovery. We're going to do one more exercise together here. It's question three in the document. How can you incorporate error framing into your teaching? Try to think of a specific example where you can use this in in either a class that you teach, when you're onboarding a new teammate, anything where you're conveying information to you. These are great examples. Thank you for sharing and I want to call attention to the first answer here. I've had instructors tell me that they intentionally write in mistakes into the script that they're going to teach. I don't have to do that because I make enough errors, especially if I'm teaching right before lunch, but you can, yes, intentionally incorporate these mistakes in your teaching plan. So I'd like to move on to the next slide. So I've given just a very, very brief introduction to some of the things that we cover in our two-day instructor training course. If you're interested in teaching with us and getting a more in-depth view of our teaching model, our instructor training is, as I mentioned, a two-day workshop. We're offering it now for half days during the pandemic. It's intensive hands-on introduction to evidence-based teaching practices and to the carpentries community. In this workshop, we focus on introducing new instructors to evidence-based best practices of teaching, teaching them how to create a positive environment for learners at the workshops, providing plenty of opportunities for them to practice and build their teaching skills and get and give feedback to each other. We also help new instructors become integrated into the carpentries community and, of course, prepare them to use those skills in teaching carpentries workshops. Our instructor training program is all about helping build capacity at our member organizations and other organizations around the world to deliver computational trainings to their audience at a schedule and a pace that makes sense to your audience and that's targeted towards the learners that you have and their backgrounds and goals. So through our instructor training program, we help you prepare your team to teach in an effective way regardless of what they're teaching. Many of the people who go through our instructor training program do so just because they want to improve their teaching and not necessarily because they want to teach for the carpentries. We welcome applications to our instructor training program and there is a link to apply in the collaborative document at the bottom in the link section. So please do take a look at that. Next, please. The next opportunity that I will discuss is curriculum development. Regardless of how good a curriculum is, we know that educators do not pick up and teach curriculum materials that were developed by someone else as is, but instead they adapt them for their own classrooms. The carpentries is really unique in both enabling individual educators to duplicate and modify our curricula by providing accessible lesson templates and documentation and more importantly by integrating community suggestions back into the content. Our 30 plus lessons have been taught by many educators and have incorporated the collective wisdom of those individuals. All of our 3020 instructors have gone through the process of contributing back a suggestion and an improvement to one of our lessons and at the time of the last publication, we had over 1100 unique contributors to the published lessons and others to lessons that are in development. Next, please. So this session is really a teaser and a hope that you'll leave with an understanding of some of the fundamentals of how we at the carpentries develop curriculum and how to incorporate feedback in the curriculum development process. We won't have time to cover some of the other important elements that are involved in creating open computational curricula like accessibility and collaboration, but at the bottom of our collaborative notes document, we do have links to our curriculum development handbook, which is our community developed resource on the entire curriculum development process. And we also invite you to join us in our Slack space and on GitHub if you're interested in learning more about that. So we're not going to cover lesson infrastructure, accessibility, cognitive load, but please take a look at the Carpentries curriculum development handbook for more in-depth information. I want to introduce one key concept of how we do curriculum development at the carpentries. Next slide. And this is backwards design. Backwards design can be used in developing a lesson to teach whatever it is you want to teach, whether that's an open source software package or whether it's teaching how to bake the most delicious chocolate chip cookies. Backwards design is a method for creating lesson content in a way that focuses on audience specific learning outcomes. So a good analog to backwards design in the software world is test driven development. So let's look at a quick diagram next slide. Test driven development is a cycle where you start by defining the computing environment, outputs, and behavior of your code before you actually write it. Then you write tests that evaluate your code and finally you write the code and evaluate it with your tests. Backwards design in lesson development is similar. If you think about the code behavior as learning outcomes, the tests are exercises that you use to assess those learning outcomes, and the code are the learners who are going through your course material. Next please. So in backwards design the first step is identifying the target audience. Knowing your audience helps you understand how much you can cover in a single course because it depends on their background and it helps you understand how to present the material most effectively. We then define the concrete lesson objectives for those learners and after that we can write diagnostic examples and exercises to give us formative feedback, real time information for how learners are able to meet those learning objectives as they go through the course material. Once we have all those pieces in place we can then write the explanatory material, the lesson content, the coding examples. We write that around the exercises that will guide the audience through the lessons as we teach it and then we iterate on that process until we have a course that for confidence is going to allow the learners to achieve the outcomes. Then at that point or before we really encourage you to put your lesson if you're developing a lesson in the carpentry style into the carpentries incubator which is a community-driven platform to enable community members to share lesson materials at all stages of development covering all sorts of topics and there's some links for that as well in the collaborative document. So we're going to do another exercise together. We're going to have some practice in identifying a target audience. Next slide. The first place to start when developing a lesson using backwards design is to understand first your target audience. Who are the people who are going to benefit directly from practicing the content of your lessons? Next. Once you know who you're going to be teaching, for example, chemistry gadget students, you can then take an inventory of what they know and what motivates them. This saves you time later, promotes inclusive design, helps your learners choose lessons that are going to be appropriate for them and avoids scope creep. So we're going to look at exercise five, no four. For a course or a tutorial that you've recently taught or attended, answer the following questions. What was the expected audience? What was their background? What their motivation for being there? But prior knowledge, could they be expected to possess? What are some of the tools they were using and what are some of the types of data they were already working with? You're not going to be able to answer all those questions in the next few minutes. Please give some thoughts to as many of those questions as you can. Just about 30 more seconds on that activity. All right, sorry, I know that wasn't a lot of time, but I wanted to plant some of those questions in your brain. Those are things that you can be thinking about as you develop or as you evaluate course material to make sure that you understand the audience that you're trying to target and are building lesson materials that are appropriate for that audience. Diane, we're going to skip a few slides now and go to the community building section. So the third and last opportunity that I'll cover pretty quickly is community building. The more people at all levels that are able to share what they know, the more efficiently we can distribute knowledge. The Carpentries is a volunteer organization and we have a really strong community around the world of people playing different roles in our organization. As people progress with their engagement in the Carpentries, they can be involved in the community in different ways. And in the long term, we build communities that can provide widespread support regionally or within specific localities. Next slide. The way that we do this, the way that we've managed to sustain our large volunteer community is through this sustainability model. We focus on gathering people who already share goals and values. We provide multiple different avenues to contribution. I've talked about two of them here, curriculum development and instruction. We make sure that we value the contributions that come in, whether it's a simple typo fix to our lessons or whether it's running a whole community and show that our community that we value their contributions. Provide opportunities for people to grow and advance in the roles that they have in the organization. Reward the volunteer work that our volunteers are doing. And last but not least, we focus on resource creation. So I mentioned the curriculum development handbook. I mentioned our instructor training curriculum. These are resources that we have created so that we can expand the impact of our programs and not have the core team or the staff be a bottleneck for improving and expanding the Carpentries model. I'm just going to very briefly blow through the next few slides next. So our instructors form the heart of our community. We have over 3,000 instructors and they teach workshops, they host online discussions and they organize local meetups as well as our global conference. Next. Those instructors are supported and trained by our instructor trainers who teach our instructor training courses and also maintain that curriculum. Next. We have a community segment who mentors the new instructors and supports the development of them in the community. This is a small but rapidly growing program. Next. And our lesson maintainers support the lessons that are used to teach all of our workshops. We have over 30 official lessons and several more that are in development at any given time. So keeping those all relevant and bug free is really important. And next. And lastly, I will mention our lesson developers who are the folks who create new lessons, mostly in Carpenters incubator. This is a really quickly growing community. We have over 100 of these going right now. And that just shows how much enthusiasm and excitement there is in our community to develop and help people learn these sorts of content. So I did have another exercise there, but Dan maybe you could just put it up on the screen for a second to to prompt you at some point as you're going about your day to think about how do you use or do you want to use some of these sustainability principles to build up your community. And then we can go just to the summary here. So I've introduced the carpentries and then given a couple of mechanisms that you can get involved with the carpentries through community building curriculum development instructor training. I want to give a thank you to our funders and to all of our community members. And then the next slide is just my contact information if you want to get in touch and I'll hand it back over to you. Well, thank you, Aaron. You've covered a lot of material. And I know that has been quite challenging. I did want to give the the attendees who stayed with us an opportunity to ask a couple of questions. And while they are getting those ready, and I'd say just pop them either in the text or the Q&A box, or if you've got a more involved question, we can also unmute you if you want to ask it by voice. I'll just start with a quick one while while they are thinking that through. So many of our members have had programs that either are explicitly part of the carpentries or touch on many similar related kinds of skills development. And prior to the pandemic, they of course emphasize doing those in person and synchronously. And it was very tended to be quite interactive with relatively small groups. Since the pandemic, what I have heard from many of our member institutions is that the demand for these kinds of skills has skyrocketed. There are a lot more people who are interested in this. Perhaps they are faculty who've had time to explore this during the pandemic. There are lots of reasons for it. But in order to meet that demand, while they have done some synchronous stuff, synchronous online stuff using Zoom or similar kinds of tools, they are also relying more heavily on asynchronous prerecorded material just to both to keep up with demand and because it seems that a lot of people are looking for a lot more scheduling flexibility than they had in the old in-person pre-pandemic days. How are you you emphasize the kind of interactive nature of the work the carpentries does? Are you doing things in the asynchronous area as well? Great question, Cliff. Thank you. And there's a lot to unpack there. I'll say that before the pandemic, the carpentries was delivering material online through our instructor training program. That's been online for about four years. All of our workshops or technical content was delivered in person and we really very strongly value the types of interactivity and constant feedback that we get from the learners during those workshops. So we have not and do not plan at the current moment to pivot to kind of an asynchronous model. Our method for scaling is really about training more people to deliver that content and putting the capability within the communities. So if we can train instructors in an area to deliver that content, they'll be able to give that support to the individuals who need that training. We do have community members who are leading the way and experimenting with some asynchronous development and asynchronous delivery of some of our workshop materials that we're keeping an eye on how that goes. And we also have to keep in mind that our community really led us to go into the online workshop to pivot into that last year. So we're keeping an eye on what our community wants to do, but right now we're really focusing on scaling our ability to deliver more workshops to more people. That's really interesting. Thanks. That's very helpful in understanding your approach. The floor is open and please reach out with questions. While they're thinking, I will ask one more. You mentioned you had about 90 member institutions. Yes. So our member institutions are organizations that support the carpentries financially or within kind time. And through that, they are entitled to certain numbers of instructor training seats in our instructor training program to workshops. We have 90 members currently around the world in Europe, Australia, South Africa, United States, Canada, and other countries. And so we may have some represented here. I can't actually say everybody's affiliation. But, yes, our membership program is growing and it's one way that we support communities of learners and building those regionally. So those members would include certainly higher education institutions? Oh, certainly, yes. 80% of those would be academic institutions, then some government labs and just a couple of for-profit institutions. Okay. That's helpful, too. Thanks, Cliff, for the good questions. I know that it's the end of the day for you all and you've been at some of these sessions. If people don't have questions, that's okay. I'm going to pop a question back to you and I don't know if we can have them answered in the chat. What has been your previous interactions with the carpentries and maybe how would you like to get involved with the carpentries if you haven't had those previous interactions? Well, we've got one as a participant and an instructor. I recognize your name there, Carl. You were right when you said some of those answers sound like carpentry instructors. Any others who've been involved in the carpentries? Looking at a membership? Wonderful. Thank you, Jennifer. Please get in touch. Send me an email. We can set up a call. It would seem like this is not only a powerful thing to connect with to teach these skills, but it's also if you really get engaged with it potentially a very powerful way for an organization to do staff development. Oh, certainly yes. The types of skills that our community brings to the table. It's not just the instructor training, but it's also skills with lesson development. It's technical skills. People learn a lot about collaborating on GitHub and writing an R and Python and all the different tools that we teach. So I can say that my technical skills over the past six years of involvement with the carpentries have really skyrocketed. And I think that's true of many of our community members who get involved. I can remember many, many years ago when dinosaurs walked the earth. Somebody once told me that you don't really know something until the first time you try and teach it. And I've found that to be quite true throughout much of my life. We are at time. And I think what I will do is draw the formal session to a close and stop recording. But if you have a minute or two to hang around, Erin, I will invite anybody who wants to chat with you or ask a question offline. I can turn on their microphones. We'll just stay a minute or two in case they want to do that. Sure. That sounds great. All right. Well, let me just close the session then by thanking our attendees and thanking you very much, Erin, for stepping up on short notice and sharing with us a better understanding of what the carpentries is doing, where it came from, and what it can offer. And please pass our best wishes to Carrie. We'll certainly do that. Thank you.