 Okay, sorry about the delay folks. We are here and we are technology challenged, but we get there in the end So I'd like to welcome you to the next session in the Drupal Business and strategy track. Do you want to get that door Andrew? Yeah, thanks um, and I'd like to introduce you Andrew Barnes Andrew is our The oh, let's see where my notes. He's Managing director of go one a Drupal services firm based in Brisbane. Yeah for Brisbane He's also on the board of two not for profits And you're the founder of go one, aren't you? Co-founder excellent Andrew's background is in economics and business management, and he's currently competing Completing a phd at uq the University of Queensland in his spare time I gather And you session is titled running a Drupal business and could could you please welcome Andrew Barnes? It'll be on excellent. So thank you everyone and again, it wouldn't be a tech conference unless we had technical difficulties Um, so apologies. We're just running off a pdf at the moment, but hopefully that shouldn't distract from the message So today's um, sort of talk I'm going to run through a couple of topics centered around sort of running I'm sort of operating within the Drupal ecosystem. It's not just design for business owners It's designed for um, anyone who's managing a team project managers anyone who's who's sort of really looking to make Make their mark within Drupal in a commercial sense And I wanted to begin with by saying that starting a business is not the hard part It's easy to start a business. You can Jump online start one today start one tomorrow. But the hard thing is to keep it running and that's a challenge that that I suppose anyone beginning on their first steps in that um progression are really intending to do So the focus today is on running a business Running a team all those sorts of related activities And how you can do that in a sustainable way for the long term. How do you make it scale? So again, it's if you're freelancing in around Drupal Operating in in a small team and a big team There should be some subject matter for you Again, I suppose mark already did the introductions, but for myself Probably a good question to begin with it is well, what do I know about Drupal? I used to do a lot of the development and design in our agency back when we were sort of running with 4.6 4.7 um for Drupal core Since then we've sort of grown to sort of 30 to 40 Drupal is across sort of three cities and On top of that, I suppose I've got a bit of a background in the theory of business as well However, right or wrong that may be So I haven't escaped Academia in that regard either um And I suppose my my approach my personal philosophy with Um business and life in general is so you want to achieve something which Creates sustainable growth. You don't want to do this just for the short term You don't want to do it for for today or tomorrow You want to do it for something that that has a good sort of progression over the longer term And from a personal perspective, hopefully that makes us all very happy. Um, and that's as opposed to sort of context there Contact details are at the bottom and by all means if you've got any questions either during or after the presentation just um Let me know So if we dive into this presentation we might begin with well, what what is a business? What do we mean by By by this sort of um catch all term Then I wanted to Cover another sort of three pillars in terms of some processes systems and structures that sometimes are um Intuitive sometimes are obvious and sometimes are not that obvious and again, this isn't gospel. This is just Um elements that we found work elements that we found didn't work and are worth sharing and sort of talking about today but um, I'll touch on those sort of three areas in addition to that Business the world it's all about people so understanding those relationships Internal external and particularly with Drupal as a community project How that all sort of interrelates And the final one being um, hopefully the fun stuff is what's the end? Point with it or what are we trying to achieve and how do we go about that? So if we we start off with what is a business We might first look to our wonderful friends at the ato, which is the australian taxation office They've got a lot to say about what a business is and if you look at their definition A business is basically anything Which is really um helpful and self-serving in their regard because then pretty much anything you do you need to pay tax but um You could also take a look at what wikipedia says and that would be a business is anything where you're doing something commercially viable Which I think is important And something which is creating profit. It doesn't need to be in a monetary sense, but often enough That's what we associate business with But what does a Drupal business look like? Um, and I tried to put together a three Sort of catch all terms, which I thought Captured a lot of of what a Drupal business Um can look like and they may not be fully exhaustive. There may be other different models But the first one that we're probably all very familiar with is is a traditional services firm so and I've used I've just um, I talisa is traditional here because You're now sort of looking at software as a service and everything's becoming a service within the tech industry But if you look at traditional services as those at a time or project build operations Then your Drupal shops similar to what we operate um at go one similar what? Phase two operates what um wonder crowd operates as that's really the traditional services model And more recently with Drupal. We're starting to see a second Um model emerge, which is a product based Drupal business And I'm trying to describe with that term anything which might be sort of a managed service or software as a service platform as a service you can look at um startups like pantheon or um more um Sort of recognizable name. Perhaps is aquia with their um cloud hosting offering and Drupal gardens And that comes under that second banner But another element which might come under that second banner with the the Drupal business sort of um, well it is Is payment gateways Payment gateways are not necessarily part of Drupal, but at the same time they're part of that ecosystem And they're monetized in a totally different way And other services like mollum while that may not be built into your website as an anti spam tool You may subscribe to that as a service um and Themes and modules and this has always been sort of a touchy topic within the community In terms of okay. Well, what's okay under the gpl? What's what is the Drupal way terms of giving back and community contribution? So that's always been sort of a more of a dangerous area, but Probably sits within that category And the final one is is a hybrid model where you might be releasing gpl products, uh, such as open source distributions And then have related activities based off that So i'm not sure does anyone know about sort of commerce kickstart and commerce platform that the commerce guys have put out Yeah, so that would be an example of a hybrid model where you've got a traditional services firm offering a distribution and offering that out to the community and I think one observation that I wanted to make around this point is increasingly we're seeing traditional services firm branch into that third Third topic and that's something as well that that we're looking into doing as as we speak But what else makes a business is if they're the three types of Drupal businesses out there Then let's dive into the details some of the the nuts and bolts in that And the first thing that I want to start off with is probably the most obvious but something which I feel is is the most important as well and that's um That a business is made up of people People are our clients or our staff Our friends that they're the family that apology that forgives us for working late nights and traveling far too much And you achieve so much more when everyone is aligned You want diversity you want different opinions, but you want everyone to be heading in the same direction And and as a bit of context around that what we do within our organization Is trying to achieve that by making sure that we've got small teams that operate on different projects and operate together Over a sustained period of time and they need the the capacity and capability to do what they They're required to do But at the same time, you want them to be small enough to be flexible So that that way the goals and objectives of those teams can be very personal and very much aligned with the individuals within it And when there is a group of people And then the group of people grows and you have to put a slide together like this You start to panic when you realize you missed out 20 or 30 people within a slide But um, here's some of the faces that make up our operations So what are some more people strategies if one of the strategies we're implementing is to have a small group lots of small groups rather What's some of the other things that that we've found have worked particularly well Number one is is making the work environment collaborative You want everything to be as inclusive as possible And you want the right culture to permeate the organization And part of that is making decisions inclusive Making sure that people are um sort of engaged and proactive and energized around it You do really need to listen to everyone And at this stage I should apologize because when I was looking through different slides, which should sort of fit this presentation I kind of turned the rest of the presentation into a Sort of a tribute to Dilbert But but it really is important that You don't do it in a token effort when you're trying to make decisions inclusive Um, and you need to sort of act act across all levels of the organization when you're doing that Otherwise, it's just a cheap trick that um, isn't genuine So in context for us, we've got um a whole bunch of different teams within our organization across the Sort of services and product related areas We collaborate daily over skype It is one of our main tools. I know it sounds simple, but having group chats open where everyone just sort of posts their feedback into Is an amazingly powerful tool Are we we try and be professional but be fun? Internally and externally with how we interact and we want to encourage excellence and we expect growth Amongst everyone within the organization And coming back to that sort of listening point So going from people to something which is a little bit more abstracted Is what else makes a business and I think processes Provide a mechanism for your people to act They're particularly obviously Useful in the case of new staff But it's also really important that you have a consistency of behavior across your organization So that the interactions are um, are fairly sustained and predictable And it's really important that processes aren't again just implemented for the sake of it that they're not abstractions of reality And instead that you take the time to actually boil down what you're trying to achieve or what you're currently doing on a daily basis And you isolate the salient points of the the critical points within that And some of those critical points Um, or what should a process contain? It is covered within these next two slides. So if you think about it, um, a process should be effective In terms of if you're describing a process that you respond to support inquiries That process should be achieving what your overall goal is around that That is It should be efficient. You don't want to add so many steps into it that it becomes a nightmare to fulfill Because it's not the best use of time for the people undertaking it And a process should also be relevant. So that way it doesn't have Um, it's not superfluous. You're not creating a process for taking the garbage out when everyone knows how to take the garbage out You're not creating a process for things which are unnecessary Uh, and it needs to be usable. So it needs to be something which is accessible Um, and understandable for the organization and for your staff Uh, it needs to be something that is introduced through induction. It needs to be something that's reinforced over time Uh, and equally then if it's usable You need people to use it. Uh, it's too often within our organization. Um, we'll create processes Then we'll go back six months later. We'll have another strategic planning session. We'll create more processes Then we'll compare the two processes and they're identical. We just never used the first one in the first place Um, which is important introduces why they need to be reused They need to be managed and monitored and they need to be measured and measurements are really critical concept That I found it into the business is if you're not measuring it Um, those parameters those elements that that you're trying to achieve just won't be achieved So what else makes a business then? Um, I was saying I was going to go through processes and systems and They may overlap a lot, but I think particularly for this audience, um Systems we might take today to mean a tool or a technical element that helps you achieve Um, those processes And there are obvious systems if you've got a project management system if you've got a version control system in your organization Um, but things such as your office phones, uh, like I said, we use skype a lot internally to um to keep abreast of Of what everyone within the organization is doing or if you use google chat, they're all great systems I'd even go as far as to saying look, um coffee machines having beer in the fridge um, which For a caffeine addicted organization like us Is a critical element to success A really important support mechanisms and systems That um that help you achieve your business objectives And as a technical person, I also think I all I used to think that systems were the cure all that they were fantastic And I would jump into a new system and set it up overnight and think excellent all of our problems are now solved We've got this new, um Task management system. We've got this new finance system. Fantastic. I read the feature list Our business is going to double next year double next month um, but That that's not the whole answer. Um systems aren't the cure all They're important to help sort of make those um processes Are usable and efficient But if you don't follow them if you don't use the system or if you don't use it in the right way Uh, don't expect to get the outcomes that that you are looking for Um, they rely on underlying good processes and the adherence to them Which is why those reporting and monitoring metrics are so critical In those sorts of um contexts And if we um look at our good friend Ben Franklin here, uh, the next step is is around structure And once you've got processes and systems in place, how do you start achieving? Your business objectives, whether they be the client project, whether they be an internal project or whether they be something else entirely It's really it's really important to have a structure. Um, and one of our project managers likes to say That he's very happy when he knows that he's not on time because at least he knows where he is I think that's Again a little bit too self-serving, but um, you have to agree at the end of the day It's better to have a plan and know where you are relative to that Then they're not to have one at all And as part of that that planning component, we had a great talk this morning. Um by the CEO of a drip or shop out of europe on agile planning is Is identifying those tasks breaking them out into small tasks prioritizing those tasks and allocating resources around them to help achieve those tasks But one part of planning that we often forget is what what if it all stuffs up what if we Run these plans. We follow these plans and it doesn't work out Um, you have to consider contingencies if you're planning on delivering a large project Uh, and then suddenly you win two large projects. What are you going to do in those situations? What's going to happen if um, one of the developers or designers that you're depending on Is sick or unavailable or or otherwise busy Um, try and foresee some problems that might arise and make sure that your planning is as robust as possible to those events um, and then Unfortunately paradoxically almost try not to over plan. You can spend twice as long Planning than the project itself And there's obviously diminishing returns to how long you're spending on that But I'd probably guess that everyone myself included in this room Doesn't spend enough time planning. Um, and if you get into the the category of over planning then, um That's probably just sort of self correcting a little bit Um, now if we go back to to I suppose what I was saying is one of the underlying most important elements to a business In terms of the people within it What really makes people tick is relationships. Um, this is a topic that I've considered both within our professional environment But also from a research perspective is in terms of how do you Make um better collaborations better relationships Um, and a big part of this it is a company culture. Um, your identity your brand Both external and internal Marketeers have sort of latched onto that and now everything to do with the business is now marketing It's it's all how you present yourself But that may not be necessarily incorrect as well I think if you consider your culture as A core part of your business and it's something that you can't Unnecessarily consciously always set out to achieve Then then that's an important mindset to take So your relationships both internal and external With clients with staff are a key sort of part of this And one of the major important points that that I was saying that I wanted to emphasize at the beginning with with our culture Is we try and make sure that it's fun But at the same time that we're professional in terms of doing it And it doesn't matter how far along that that sort of spectrum that you are but as long as you um Sort of are conscious in setting out where you want The business to be and that that culture to be and as long as that aligns with all the people within the company And what they're trying to achieve In their workplace, then I think you're on to a winner And um and engendering a sense of collaboration Is an important sort of focus um as part of that I thought I'd pause for a moment and just put up a um Probably looks like a series of little dots and larger dots, but um Anyone have want to have any guesses what this image is? I'm showing No guesses um, it is a picture of every single academic who has ever published a paper in the last 10 years at the University of Queensland um, surprisingly academics at uq look a lot like circles but On top of that what you should see is that there's a couple of big points Within this diagram, but the most important thing is how connected People are and it's those connections which have have been proven in research papers time and time again That create the outcomes So connections not just in terms of the number of connections Um, I always tend to look at people on linkedin who have those 500 plus connections As um trying a little bit too hard just to network for the sake of networking But also the quality of those connections in terms of are you connected with people that um That will help you achieve the objectives that that you're trying to do within your personal life and your business life And that can be as obvious and and and having diversity in those connections The one thing that you notice in your own personal connections is that probably very similar You're probably um very well associated with people in the same town as yourself Speak the same language as yourself Have the same personal interests But that doesn't allow you to think very differently to them It doesn't allow you to have conversations Where you can come up with new idea is or bounce around different different concepts And one of the really interesting things that's coming out of research more recently Is that for success both you need to have larger teams And you need to have more diverse teams um And and there's obviously difficulties involved with diversity, but it's worth sort of consciously thinking through that as well On that subject of sort of having access to different sort of perceptions and and different um sort of mindsets I wanted to sort of come back to the fact that I think within our industry within The tech industry and within it. I think knowledge is our competitive advantage Particularly for a services company the more that you know the better you can Implement different solutions that that is your competitive advantage And so around that collaboration within your business and external to it Is how you're going to grow that and how you're going to be able to leverage that Um and by being open in your discussions with others you'll actually achieve more It's not a scarcity mentality that that we have within an open source community, which is fantastic But at the same time I think There's a lot of instances similar to slide here that I've Been in um going well look why why do I want to be open it sometimes isn't intuitive But it really is um an asset I would um encourage you all to sort of consciously set out to do And so if we go look if we're doing business and I'll start swing back towards Drupal now again If we're doing business in in the Drupal ecosystem What is Drupal in light of all all of these um topics? Our Drupal is a community collaboration. It's a mentality of looking for the long term that we're not just looking for For something which is going to to solve our problem today or tomorrow in terms of you could hack core you could um Do some nasty sort of css hacks to to achieve what you want on your website or on your clients website But fortunately enough this community doesn't um advocate that and rather takes a much longer term view going Well, how are you going to support that? How are you going to make sure your life is easier into the future? um And when you develop something for a client releasing it back to the community as part of that Is it going to be worth your while spending those extra hours releasing a module? Even though that may not necessarily be paid for um And that's something that we come across quite recently and and our answer to that is is at least if we think we're going to come Up with another requirement similar to that in the future then then yes, it is worth that time And it doesn't necessarily need to just be in a development light as well So you can see that if you imagine That network of circles that we're showing before in a an academic research context I would advocate that similarly we've got a network of circles that that we're not necessarily always aware of Within this Drupal community and out into the wider community as well We don't want to necessarily be inward focused either within our business or within the project but um Those connections are how we sort of share the knowledge and how we sort of move things forward um, so rather than sort of touching too much on Sort of meetups versus contributions and close and proprietary um Just wanted to advocate that doing business doesn't necessarily need to be against the Drupal way The open source way. I think the two are very complimentary um And now on to some of the um more sort of I suppose not fun stuff, but The business outcomes and the pointy end of what we're we're trying to achieve with a commercial activity Based in and around the Drupal ecosystem Um, I'd suggest that one of the most important things that a business can have is a sustainable profit Um, not not a lot of money today not a lot of money tomorrow, but at the same time not Running massive losses. You're not going to be around in the future unless You can come up with the business model which allows you to create a sustainable profit And the million dollar question around that is well, how do you do that? How do you create sustainable profit? How do you grow a sustainable profit? um And I think there's three points three principles around that that I'll go through and then we'll sort of swing back to those Drupal business models that we were looking at before to work out how you can Create sustainable profit to each of those business models um I think the first principle to keep always in mind is is to be fair to your clients Whether they be product users, whether they be Service users, but be transparent. Drupal is amazing. Help educate them about it. Help grow their knowledge Help educate them But also understand your client and I think one thing Myself included that that we as developers or Website builders often forget is your client has different priorities to you Their website may not be the most important thing to their business In fact, it's often not And how you then go about doing that needs to be relative and appropriate to that And I think it was summed up nicely this morning by saying if you expose the The cost or the resources or the time it's going to take to do certain um Tasks or certain projects Then your client can work out if the business outcome supports it But the flip side of that is sometimes the website or the project that you're working on with your client Is the most important thing to their business. It's core. It's central to their business succeeding And if that's the case, it's really important to um to treat it that way It's really important then to take on a level of ownership As as the expert in the field to make sure that what's being implemented is again Not for the short term but for the longer term and educating through that And I've probably sum up the um the bottom cartoon strip as try not to to achieve or convince through obscurity Try not to be too abstract, but if you can explain and put it in in an understandable context for your client or for your end user Then you'll really sort of hit the point much closer Um and the other two principles are sort of stem from that be fair to your staff and be fair to yourself I think um certainly one of our our learnings internally was that we always wanted to to create a happy outcome even if that was at our own expense and Sometimes in life you you can't always do that And whilst it's important for you to compromise and and make sure that you're trying to achieve the best for your client I don't expect the impossible From your team and don't I suppose put up with clients that expect the the impossible from you There is the 80 20 rule in terms of the businesses that you engage with and which ones will be the most um Conducive to sort of long term success versus the ones which will be a drain on on your resources and a drain on your staff And in terms of being fair to your staff Do expect honesty and diligence, but provide the same in return reward the small staff create a culture that really sort of um celebrate so small successes And an important note is if you're running a team if you're running a project If you're um running a business be fair to yourself It's not going to be sustainable to work 100 hour weeks To not sleep. It's not going to be sustainable to yourself To not pay yourself if you're in a business where you're you're earning much less than you could um elsewhere Understand that and don't necessarily need to change it today or tomorrow But make sure that that's part of the plan for the future. Um, don't sort of skirt around uncomfortable truths like that and One point which probably included um Again from personal experience Is you're not responsible for other people's circumstances Um, yes, it's useful and yes, it's good to be empathetic and supportive but don't um sacrifice yourself just for the sake of the um the circumstances that others are up against particularly when you're engaging with businesses where Where they're trying to get you to solve their um their business problems Educate and explain but ultimately they need to help in the process as well Um and and change happens It's not necessarily a principle as in so much a truth um, and I I wanted to share a couple of hypotheses and ideas that relate to the Drupal ecosystem and business around it in terms of changes that I think are um other people have Sort of noted them and I think are obvious as well and the first one is I think there is a growing commoditization of websites websites 10 years ago 5 years ago Um, we're a very specialized domain But now it's much more of a product. Um, you can jump onto square space Someone can can purchase a website off ebay for $50 now So there's strong downward pressures on on services around that um And is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know but I don't think it's um It's either and what is the justification from our end to a client for using Drupal over a And off the shelf solution like square space Sure, one might be more pure and from a um sort of developmental stand standpoint is a nicer option, but what is Their objectives and how are we trying to sort of fit in with that? And I think the response needs to be to compete with that. So if you're going up Um against competitors like that make sure your processes are efficient. Make sure there is lean as possible Use a platform like agia to release different versions of sites very quickly or different platforms very quickly and use distributions like commerce kickstart Which is um if again people haven't come across Is a fantastic tool to get you 80 or 90 of the way there for a small e-commerce shop Use them to get a running start And and I think the most important point around this Is if websites or web designers increasingly becoming commoditized Differentiate yourself in terms of providing business solutions Drupal is a fantastic tool for embedding business logic into it embedding workflows into it or Or at least it's now becoming a fantastic platform for that as opposed to to where it was years ago But um use that to your advantage and embed some business logic into the site because that increases the um the value that you're delivering Um Additionally separate to the commoditization of websites is we're in a market which is is now maturing um We're not just small players anymore. There's not just dribble shops of Of individuals or five people or or even 10 people Again the speech this morning. I think was a couple of hundred staff arquio has 300 staff And you've got organizations like Accenture and Capgemini who have tens of thousands of staff How do you compete when a a business or a firm like that can throw 10 000 developers at a project? When you might have two Um And they're a better risk profile for um government and corporate agencies Um, or at least there is less perceived risk within those organizations whether or not Um, the end outcomes are quite as conducive So I think the response needs to be Um to focus on your difference Uh to sort of celebrate that and exploit that For a big team or um if you want one Drupal in Australia might not fit that You might not be the development seeds of the world in terms of being a Drupal mapping specialist Um, but still have a difference own that difference The next point in terms of once we've got some profit we now want some growth How do we then grow the business itself? And I'm just going to go back to the types of business because I think it really depends on on what your business model is In terms of how you grow it If you're operating as a Drupal dev shop and you've got staff and you're billing clients It's always going to be a function of hours or how much you can churn out Um, and that's fine. You just need to grow your numbers. It's Very, um difficult and challenging though at times Um products and software as a service. Uh, fortunately is very easy to scale Uh, the flip side to that though is it's very very difficult to build version one or to get the first one out the door Um, and if you're going after a hybrid model Again, it may be a defensible position But distributions or or equivalents are again very resource intensive to do up front. So None of these options are the the silver bullet None of them is the one approach I'd advocate everyone sort of step out of the room and And start running after but I think it is important to consider it and go look for our business model for your business model Where where do you want to position yourselves? And I thought I'd end to contextualize a little bit with some examples from our end with um one being A platform that we call a giro, which is an e-learning platform built around Drupal Because for us Drupal is our bread and butter. It's what we we focus on Day and night and we love the platform, but um E-learning and education is a market where we see tremendous results being delivered by Drupal and we wanted to to again sort of have a running start there and the um the second one is a A distribution that we're releasing over this week, which is called go campaign It's a crm or social media platform, which you can Install and download and run run yourselves But again, it's designed to to allow us to have a distribution which we can support and and sort of grow into the future And those are really the sort of um elements, which I think define Well, what is Drupal in a business context? What is um the sort of models that are out there and what are some of the approaches to make sure that they're The structure that your organization is taking is as effective as possible And I think one minute early, but um I just wanted to sort of open up for the next down five or ten minutes If there was any questions that people had or um any sort of Um thoughts on the sort of points that I just went through Yeah Yeah, no, it's a good question. So um just to repeat to everyone. How do we balance our clients client deliverables versus our own internal projects or products And it's um been one we struggled with for a long time because you'll say look We're really excited about building um this product And then a client comes through the door and says look, I'll pay you $50,000 if you do this website for me And you go well this this this product would be lovely, but um, I would quite like this now And that's why the the short term versus long term is really important to consider We solved that problem only in the last six to 12 months And we've got dedicated teams. So each of those Units that I flashed up on the screen has their own teams has their own budgets has their own Objectives they each have a manager responsible for that So if a project does come through the door and says look, I want to do this Then our services teams will will go after that And if they need to grow larger to accommodate that they will But they can't steal resources From from the other objectives unless unless it's some really sort of monumentally justifiable project Yeah Yeah, so in terms of productivity, I think it Comes down to measurement. But how do you measure an abstract concept like productivity? You can have and we do in our organization have different types of people a developer who is Very knowledgeable on Drupal as a platform Very experienced in that regard and very very slow Or you could have someone who's Very good at just getting things done but may not do it in technically the best way I think productivity comes down to a question of well, what was your expectations? And how good were you at those expectations? So if you're going into a project and you're saying look we think it'll be 40 hours of design for this project Did you achieve a good result? Within that estimate or were you not productive enough and ended up using 120 hours? Or were you not productive enough and didn't achieve a good result in in less than that? It's not a perfect answer, but that's our approach anyway in terms of trying to Encourage that and measure it as well. And I think some of the mechanisms In terms of collaboration in terms of that culture help boost it, but you have to measure it too it's Yeah, no, it's um A good question particularly for us because we we operate Fairly lean on the ground in terms of we're across three And next week I'll be off to Bangkok to open up an office there. We'll have all of two people in it It's those tools and systems to support that so A presentation just before from one of the developers within Suncorp. They've got four offices 30 people similar sort of size And they've just got video screens where you can walk up to it It's already got a video screen into their office in in china and in melbourne or in brisbane We try and do similar things within our organization, but even basic things like skype are um Are great and we do staff exchanges in terms of we we try and get people moving between the offices a lot Um holding sort of events where people can can get together So those sorts of things Yeah, that's it. Yeah, so As Daniel who um sort of actually does all the work and I just sort of sit here and spend my life doing talks um was saying we Our corporate structure is not geographically based Um, so those teams that that I said they're they're not focused in one spot or another They're they're spread across so you'll have a project manager in one location who may have um A designer working with them in in their same office They may have a developer working in another office and they'll run through a qa process in another office They'll all be on skype all at the same time talking together the the challenge Will become in the future. How do you run? um Distributed teams and creative culture When you're operating in totally different time zones that that'll be a challenge At the moment, we're we're lucky that we're only sort of three hours difference across all the um sort of bases Any other questions? All good. Uh, well, thank you very much. I'll um sort of stick around if there's any other sort of um queries afterwards, but um Thank you very much Hello, thanks so much. Andrew. Um now, uh, you might have noticed on the website The evaluation feature has been switched on. Uh, so go to the session schedule page And if you could evaluate the sessions that you've been to today, that would be wonderful Please you can also put comments on the individual session pages as well That'll be the the feedback will be collated by the Drupal association And the speakers love to be able to hear feedback as well so they can um, you know continually improve their talks and everything So I believe that is us for today What's next on the program? I didn't look before I came up here drinks Beach cricket. Yeah, okay across the road. So thanks very much for your attendance. And could you please thank Andrew Barnes once more?