 Former presidential aspirant Kingsley Muggaloo announces a six-party planned merger ahead of 2022's election, and lawmakers withhold details of a 134-billion-dollar allocation despite calls for open national assembly. While this is cross-politics, the high-evaluable. Instead of the 2023 general elections, seven political parties have indicated interest to merge their structures in order to form a mega-party. Now, a former presidential candidate in the 2019 elections, Professor Kingsley Muggaloo, drops the hint. He, who also was a deputy former deputy governor of the Central Bank of Nigeria, said that the U-turn by the Senate on the electronic transmission of results was a positive sign that the 2023 general elections would be transparent. He also went on to say that 2023 should be a battle between the old and the new, between the old Nigeria and the possibilities for a new Nigeria. He called on youths to register, vote and colonise the future that rightfully belongs to them. While joining us to discuss this is political analysts Ambrose Ibuki and Opponabo Inkultaira. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you, good evening, Nigeria. Good evening, thanks for having me. Great. Ambrose is very interesting that Muggaloo is interested in another merger or hinting at another. Now, let's go back to 2019. There was a merger, which included the former Education Minister, Abiyaz-e-Quassili, very famous speaker, Feladro Toye, and other people. This merger was supposed to upstage somewhat the big political parties, but we all know how that turned out at the end of the day. So why should we be interested in this new merger? Well, the smaller political parties in Nigeria have been trying to merge. Remember just like two months ago, we had the issue of the thought force that was muted by Professor Patutomi and some other people. We also had the issue of this one coming up now. In the last election, especially the 2015 election, I did argue that we have too many political parties. It became so cumbersome to call out the results of the presidential election where we have over 90 political parties that participated. That is a mockery of democracy. Therefore, we need to streamline party registration. Every political party must not be a national party. There should be some political parties that play only at the state level. There should be some political parties that play at regional level. Then there will be political parties that will not play at the national level. I think it is time to categorize political parties in participation in elections in Nigeria. Otherwise, it will still become like a mockery of democracy where you have over 90 political parties participated. It makes a nonsense of the process if I must submit. The coming now, the last merger that really, really shook the political landscape of Nigeria was the merger of 2014 between the ACN, CNPP, ANPP, and a splinter group of the PDP called the new PDP. These political affiliations themselves were very powerful blocks on their own. Remember that President Mohammad Barari before he won the 2015 election had contested earlier three times. And one of the elections he got up to 12 million votes with the CPC party. And of course, we know that ACN has been ruling the Southwest for a very long time. The new PDP that emerged were elements from the PDP that were very powerful individuals. So that was because of this formidable alliance of these five or six blocks. That was what we were able to reservoir from the PDP at the central stage in our border. Now, when you compare that with what is happening now, the measures that we are seeing now are not very formidable. They are not. They are just a coterie of small political parties trying to come together and see whether they can have a unified voice. But they are not strong political parties in terms of going to threaten the state or school in any way. So I will urge them, rather than trying to look at the presidential, if they can merge in the various states to see how they can participate and key at the state level, get some seats in the House of Assembly, in the Houses of Assembly, get some seats at the House of Works, or even the Senate. And they let them start from there. Everything must not be looking at presidential election, presidential election. Political parties that don't have even a spread in the state they were formed are looking for presidential election. So I think we should, other political parties should restrategize and see how the measures can be to get power, first of all, at the local level, states and the regional level, in that way they can build on the momentum and contest future elections where they can make greater impact. All right. I'm coming to you, Mr. Tara, because I want to pick up from where he stopped. Let's talk about party structures. These, for the want of a better word, smaller political parties do not seem to have structures just as he has said. And if we were to look at them through a microscope of sorts, they do not even have structures at the tiniest of localities. I'm talking about the tiniest level or the lowest level, which is the local government levels and the councilorship levels, which should, like he said, should be their main focus. So if he's saying that these parties do not have structures, why do we have these many political parties if we're not insisting that they have some structures of sorts? Because they all seem to be sleeping parties until election season. I think you're just having a panoramic view of the whole thing. But I should take a microscopic view of it. Now, the merging of political parties, just like the right man said, talking of the PDP, the ANPP, the CPC, the new PDP and co, into the APC, was specifically to respire from the PDP because the PDP had the financial and numerical strength to ward off any competition. So what they did, which was a master stroke, was to meld, come together to respire from the PDP. And it was. Now, talking of what Magalu talked about, the merging of six political parties, there are a few questions we are going to answer. Is it ideated just to respire? Are we talking, is it parliocentric or artistic reason? Do we have analogousness of ideologies? Because even if you met and eventually you succeed, which is actually a tall order, if you met and eventually you succeed, at the end of the day, we'll still be back to where we are today, or even worse. But talking of success first, let us also not forget, nothing tried, nothing gained. That is one. Two, I think we are also exploiting the infamy of the present administration. And also don't forget that these measures we are talking about, we are only seeing the lights of Magalu and Co. These are factors that will be populated by a lot of disgruntled people in the PDP and in the ATC. Will it be? No, I won't. Yes. Because instead of, I'm sorry, the reason why I'm questioning you is because instead of seeing these people move to other parties, and I'm not even pointing to the likes of Apgar, the SDP, or even Labour Party, which we haven't really heard anything from them lately, we see more of the criss-crossing between the APC and the PDP. Just yesterday, the Deputy Governor of Amara has moved to the APC. I was addressing that before you interrupted. I was addressing that. I said a lot of disgruntled people in the APC and the PDP will now defect. They will look for another ground to bring their interests to cushion. And this might just be the third force. That is the truth about it. Because most people who defected from PDP to APC if they realized that the ambition will be frustrated in APC, they will all come together and strengthen this very political party that Magalu is talking about. So you cannot just dismiss it. Because at this time now, they don't have the clouds, they don't have the financial strength. But they have started. And it's going to attract a lot of political dignitaries who strongly believe that their ambitions in APC and PDP might be made hamstrung. And they will defect to this new political party, depending on how the foundation is laid. And that is why I said, at the end of it all, these same money bags, these same big weeks that we are running away from are the same persons that are going to control. Because politics is all about money and financial strength in Nigeria. I was going to ask that question. I was going to ask how the third force will really take its powers. This emerging party. They are the same party that will control the emerging party that Magalu is ideating right now. So that is the fear. Otherwise, we should not just dismiss it. I agree with my brother. I went and said, we have too many political parties. But it's all the great job, democracy, save the financial implications. It's costing the federal government a whole lot. And most of these parties were actually for gaseous reasons. They were not formed because for any ideological reason, how to persevere in a serious political war. They were formed because they know that when you form a political party, you're going to get some grants from the federal government. And that's how most of these political parties were gaseous. So I agree with what I'm going to say. But that, to me, is not even the problem. I should speak right now. The problem right now is how to get a formidable force that can raise power from this present government, this APC government. That is, to me, what is important. That is the priority to me. Because most of these political parties, I mean, if at the end of the day, they don't have the class, those fuselage, there's no doubt about that. And I can tell you, this is really not important. Excuse me, some of them are evident in contesting it. So to me, that is secondary. Let's all think of how we are going to raise power and not just raise power from the present APC. Because it is not about the nomenclature. It has to do with the people, the people that are going to popular the party. So it's not about APC, PDP, why don't you see or whatever. We are talking about credible measures of credible candidates. Because that is why a lot of people might consider this tough part. But it is also going to be consequent upon the characters we are going to see in this new political party that will be formed by this measure. Ambrose, he's saying that I'm still struggling with the idea of trying to rest power as it were in 2015. And we're still hearing the same narrative today. Rest power from the Bahá'í administration. And we've seen the aftermath of just trying to get into power and not having a plan, a clericop plan, so a blueprint of sorts that could help stare the nation in the right direction, instead were nose deep in debt. And of course, the economy has sunk. And I think that's a very important part of the political part of the political party. And I think that's the biggest thing that the Naira is nothing to write home about. So should that be the priority of these political parties? Shouldn't they be a bit more futuristic? Or should they not be looking at the bigger picture instead of just thinking about now? Well, it is in Nigeria is about self-preservation. Then, when you talk about this proposed measure, let's wait and see the caliber of personalities or the elements of disgruntleness in the major political parties that will engender that paradigm shift for them to nest with this new political party. If what happened in 2013, 2014 does not repeat itself, then this measure will just be an exercise of futility. Because what happened was that the parties, some political parties that have structures, that have the money bags, that have the personality, that have the clouds, came together. There were not just small parties. Apart from coming together of the opposition parties, this strong opposition parties, the AFP, CPC, and ACN, they still went inside to balkanize the ruling party and moved out key people, some governors and powerful senators from the PDP. That is why they even succeeded. So I'm not saying that in this political arrangement. So unless there is something that will happen to the two major political parties that engender that kind of shift, we saw in 2013, 2014, that made top people, sitting governors, sitting senators, move the way to form alliances with the opposition. Unless that happens, then this will not be another exercise from mere political gymnastics. Then when you come to the issue of funding, if the money bags don't move from the political parties, because these politicians know how to settle these issues among themselves, they can be settled with political appointments, they can be settled with board, ministerial appointments, pastoral appointments, contracts, all that things. So it is not that when the money bag is gone to, it looks, it weighs its options. When we see most of the big people moving from one political party to another, the APC person moves to another big party, the PDP. The PDP person moves to another big party, APC. That's what has been happening for the past three years. So the first of all, there's an economic, a financial burden for a money bag to move to a small political party. It will be the sole financier. Because party funding in Nigeria is still a function of the individuals that make up the political party. They are the ones that bring the money, they are the ones that form the party. So most of them, and I think consider that, don't want to go into that venture because for most of the politicians, politics is business, it's strategic business, it's strategic investment. So most of them cannot just come and throw down the money for Nigeria for the sake of it. So they want to calculate very well. The way you move to it is even if you don't get elected, you get appointed somehow. If you don't get appointed, you get compensated. So that is how it works. Therefore, this, you cannot leave one, you cannot leave what we say, or you cannot leave a big house and they're staying in the past that and you think that you can muster the same power. So the issue is that you, it's not the same. So, but I understand that these small political parties now realize that, I mean, there are two minutes to make any statements. Therefore, this measure is supposed to give them time to make. But again, I think it's too late already because we don't have barely 10 months to primaries and all those things to take place against 2023. The arrangement would have started earlier because once we start after the measure, then what? Let me tell you what happens immediately after measure. Distribution of political position, distribution of party positions. Who becomes the chairman of the new party? I was about to ask that because we have egos here at play. There's going to be a lot of egos at play. We know that it's a game of numbers and like you said, money has to, so of course the positions are going to go to the men who are the ones who are injecting the monies into the party. So for a guy like Kingsley Mogalu, if he does have the money bags from the other parties come to this force that he's trying to put together, he just might be, you know, he might be shrugged or rather shoved to the background. What happened in 2013 and 2014 was that there were already established leaders in these setups. Men who understand the game, men who have been in the game for a while, men who were seeking a pound of flesh, men who were seeking vengeance. So that, a mix of all these was this passion behind recruiting the president at the center. But man, what's the driving force? The driving force is, I think mostly is, let's be here, let's make some noise, let's have some formidable representations, let's not just fizzle out. Because when they imagine that the next thing we call, who will be party chairman, who will be secretary, who will be party chairman, where will they zone it? The way they finish that one, they will not start about primaries. Who shall we zone the black bearer of the politics to? Who will be this, who will be that? And then that is where you really see the problem. Why it was easy in 2013 for those people that formed APC was because they were already established leaders. There could just, we didn't meet too many people. Already CPC had Buhari, ACN had Tinugu. The other political parties, for example, had somebody like Ambeci and the NPDP had someone like Ambeci and the Swaraki. So we didn't need too many people to negotiate. We just needed few men because those are the ones holding these caucuses and blocks together. But in this case now, you have to negotiate with, because they are small political parties. It's different interests. Everybody wants to blink to his own, you know, you don't understand. So when we are waiting, we hope that something will be thrown up that let them be strategic in whatever they want to do. This idea of coming together to rest power at the center should not be their priority. Their priority should be to build a powerful political base that can contest election, seek election from the grassroots, build it, rest somewhere. And now that cannot be accomplished in 10 months, like you said. And that is it. Yeah. Mr. Tara, let's talk about the other political parties because, again, I'm still trying to think it through why anybody who's agreed within the PDP or the APC would jump over the heads of the SDP or APCA. I mean, for now, as we see, APCA seems to be existing in just a number of states. And then we have the Labour Party that I referred to earlier on as almost non-existent because we haven't really heard anything from them. Would those not be better parties to merge, have a merger agreement with, and I'm not in any way saying that other parties cannot have a merger, but there are people and structures in those parties, better structures than these other parties that Mr. Mogulu is trying to get a merger with. Looking at what is happening, I mean, of course, like Mr. Bokeh said, it's a bit late in the day, 10 months is too short a time for a merger to happen. But if there were to be other alternatives, shouldn't those parties be considered because of the structure that they have across the country? This is seen as like Andrew Schreiber said too. But this is seen as one gravy tree. I know in my opening statement, I asked three major questions. I said, did I did that for altruistic reason, selfish reason, allocentric reason, or for what reason? Because is it just to rush power? The answer, most of this, I don't want to refer to them as characters. This personality, who are to be talking of the merger, also have their own interests to protect. And if they are uninterested to be subdued in merging with these other political parties, then definitely they will not be willing to so do. Because they are actually not going to rush power for national reasons, for allocentric reasons, for selfless reasons. They want to rush power for their own selfish gains. That is the truth about it. It's all about, it's what we call the drum major instinct. So it's all about, what do I do? First and foremost, the issue of bad government, I completely agree. But it's been contemporized and it's been propagandized as a substitute to discredit a government, just like what this president government did, in order to give themselves some level of acceptance and credibility. I don't see any sincerity of purpose. Because if there is actually a sincerity of purpose, it is actually too late in the day to talk of forming a new political party. I mean, it's not, you have to rationalize it. Just 10 months to the election, this government has done 500 days of their about to stay in office. And you're talking about major trying to form a new political party this time, from the world to the national. They are like jokers to me. So that's why it's all, let me have your spin hand. You know, in most cases you have the hand of, I recall the hand of Jacob, but the voice of Esau. Oh yes, you know, something like that. And I think that is what is playing out. Otherwise, I sincerely don't think that these people sincerely believe that they can achieve what they are getting. I don't think they believe that they can achieve it. Unless somebody, they are just the ones that are being seen, somebody's beating the drum. Certain group of persons are beating the drum for them. So if you talk of the existing labor party, JLP labor party and co, to come together, well, I agree with you, that would have made more sense. But again, most of these persons use this party as a bargaining chip. So yeah, they try to keep their party, so that many of them, you see that, pledging their loyalty or allegiance to for example, now hypothetically, you have the labor party member. Now, when it's put to the election, what they do is, they go and sell themselves to the political party, they believe might win. And they say, oh, they pledge the labor party member as pledge this loyalty to social, to the JLP or to after all, and that is what goes on. So it's a great betraying. And those labor party will not want to measure JLP because if it does, then it has lost its substance and usefulness. And that's why my brothers are talking about their necessary political parties we have in this country. So those rules will not want to measure, not at all. What led to the melding of political parties in 2013 and 2014 was just beyond resting power. A lot of people were scared that they were going to be jailed. So it was just beyond resting power, it has to do with their freedom. A lot of people thought if we lose out, they, we are definitely going to be imprisoned. So it was a do or die attack. And that is why you had the cacophony in the Scodal Jews today in the party. So these rules will not measure now because it is a bargaining chip for them. That's why the labor party, the JLP and co will not want to come together to rest power. Because when the elections are closed, they see it as they are going to make more money. We are going to pledge our loyalty to these political parties. And we want to pledge our loyalty when we are going to make extra money because if we go to the political parties, we don't have money to take someone in an election, not even a hands-on election. Interesting. Finally, let me, let me, let me quickly ask, and this question goes to both you and Ambrose because we have just about two minutes to go. So I'll share the minutes between you. Let's look at the person of Kingsley Mogallu, a sites from him being a former deputy governor at the center bank of Nigeria. He's thrown his hat into the ring a couple of times on this matter. And I remember at the beginning of this conversation, Ambrose said that sometimes it's best to start where you are instead of always gunning for the presidential ticket. But I'd like to hear from you both what you think about him and his ambition. And maybe he might just be another president, Bahari, who would try many times and then finally emerge as president. What do you think? I'll start with you, Ambrose, and then Mr. Tara will wrap it up. Well, I was just to comment, Professor Kingsley Mogallu, for being consistent because we have always advocated that men of high personality like him, reputable technocrats like him, should join the free. And so he has taken the gun play for a long time and joined. So that for that, I commend him. And I'm happy that one of his Taliban is in the race. He should keep at it and ensure that he also tries as much as possible to be very strategic in this. For example, Rocha Sokova-Chadu's contested for presidency of the AE or something, Action Allias. And he made demands, so he was not going through. He just did some strategic rethinking and he came back contested for the coven of the state and won. So there's a strategic thinking, you know, sometimes today it's in the Senate. So that is how sometimes this. So just as my colleague said, a lot of people had different reasons for participating in politics. Kaselemore alone might have his own reasons and he's already getting it. When he was sitting in the particular, nobody knew him. A few people may do it in the financial sector knew him. But today he has become a popular name because it's contested for election. So maybe that is his own way of living a legacy and trying to change the dynamics. He's a brilliant client and he has gone to a lot of debates and we have said the stuff is made up. So we wish him well. I wish him well. Okay, Mr. Tara, finally. Well, just like my brother rightly said, there is no cause right now to cast a guilty man. His antecedents are quite impressive. Nothing tried, nothing gained. This is somebody that feels that he can expect it is that change Nigeria's need. And so for now, we cannot submit him for any reason. Although, like I will say, Nigerians are sick and tired of deceptive rhetorics. No doubt about that. But what are we going to do? We'll keep accepting those and listening to those rhetorics until we catch somebody that will want to talk. But I commend him for his actions. I mean, he's a source of inspiration to a lot of Nigerians. So let us commend him and also encourage others to follow. I just pray it's going to be a question of do as I say, not do, sorry, it's going to be a question of doing what he say and not just do as I say, not as I did. OK, well, I'm Rossi Boke and open up about Incotara, our political analyst. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being part of this conversation. Thank you. All right. Thank you for having me. Thank you very much. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now. And when we return, will this cost the allocation of the 2022 budget for the National Assembly? And why we cannot access it? We'll be back shortly.