 with human rights around the world on think tech broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii in Moana, New York. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper, and we're so excited to have Alexandra here with us today to share about civil liberties remaining alive in the current Ukraine conflict and how Ukraine NGOs are breaking the impunity cycle. Thank you, Alexandra, for appearing tonight. Hello, nice to meet you. It is so important to see how you've been able to mobilize the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine to be able to be a powerful tool of everyday people doing important actions to promote a culture of human rights and rule of law in Ukraine. Can you tell us how it began? We established Center for Civil Liberties in 2007 and we work on several direction. We monitor and develop Ukrainian legislation and try to adapt it into this human rights standards. We work with youth and organize a lot of enlightenment programs. We was very active in OEC region because everything which we face in Ukraine, it was also a reflection of negative global trend in our region. So we closely cooperate with Russian human rights defender, human rights defender from Poland, from Moldova, from Belarus, from Tajikistan and other countries. And also we monitor political persecutions because before 2014, we live in authoritarian regime and our previous government, which was a collapse after revolution of dignity, persecute youth, journalists, human rights defenders, volunteers and other active people in the country. And we know while it played such an important role in that peaceful revolution, what's also crucial though is how it adapted as well to focus on accountability on February 24th of this year. Could you share why that date was so important and how your NGO has been mobilizing ordinary people to do extraordinary actions on accountability and to promote a vibrant civil society? I always rely upon on ordinary people. I'm totally believe that ordinary people have much more power than they even think they have. And my sit mobilization of ordinary people can make significant change. In my experience in 2013, when the revolution of dignity started, we use these methods and we launched the Euromaidan-SOS initiative. We united several thousands of people in Euromaidan-SOS initiative in order to provide legal and other assistant persecuted protesters because authoritarian regime persecute people in different way. Every day hundreds and hundreds of people who were beaten, who were arrested, accused and fabricated criminal charge, tortured, kidnapped, but through our care. And then when authoritarian regime collapse and our previous president escaped Russia in 2014, Russia started a war in order to stop Ukraine on the way of democratic transition. Seeing this time, we have been documenting the world crisis. It's important because many people think it all began February 24th. But as you pointed out, this conflict has been going on for a while as Ukraine has been striving for self-determination and to build the dynamic democracy. The actions by the neighbor of Russia have definitely been moving in the wrong direction. And that's why the work of the Center for Civil Liberies is so crucial to demand accountability, but to make sure they also document the human rights violations as well as the war crimes. In this war, we are fighting for our freedom in two sense. First, this war has a genocidal character and Russian top officials openly said that Ukrainian nation has no right to exist, that there is no Ukrainian language, there is no Ukrainian culture, et cetera. So it's a war for freedom to be Ukrainian, to be independent nations, to have our independent state. But also it's a war for a freedom for our democratic choice. Because in 2014, when authoritarian regime collapse, Ukraine obtained a chance to provide a quick democratic transformations. And in order to stop us on this way, Putin started this war, because Putin is not afraid of NATO. Putin is afraid of idea of freedom, which become more closer to Russian border. It's a very good point. It goes back to even when he was a younger officer and saw the power of the nonviolent movements in Eastern Europe and in Eastern Germany. Recently, of course, it's just the anniversary of the Berlin Wall being erected. And we know that came down in 1989 and Putin saw the power of people to come together in peaceful protest to change the course and direction of history. So I agree with your analysis that this is one thing that actually shakes him to his core. And that's why, of course, you see it's unable for people inside Russia to stand up and to demand these reforms there. But that's why you, on the so close to the door, showing people the beauty of a democracy, then challenges the corruption of what exists inside Russia today. Putin don't respect people at all. And he has no, in his system of values, importance of human life. That's why he started this bloody war. And in February this year, he started large-scale invasion. And only for five months or six months of this invasion, we jointly with other human rights organizations have been documented more than 15,000 criminal episodes. It's an enormous amount of crimes because Russia's army deliberately shall in churches, schools, hospitals, residential buildings. They torture, rape, kill civilians and committed other offenses on the occupied territories. So now, as I tell, we are documenting human pain. And Russia tried to break Ukrainian resistance with a tool which I call the enormous pain of civilian population. It is true. He is, it was senseless and entirely avoidable. But by his actions, it's definitely pointed out to the Ukrainian people the purpose of life and the importance of standing up and really what it means to be a human. And I think that's one of the most powerful examples that Ukraine is teaching the world in a way that essence of staying human, even in the face of horrible atrocities being perpetrated. Yes, because we now become a witness of the very powerful human solidarity, which has no limitation, even in national borders. And we are very grateful for the old people in different countries who support Ukraine in the struggle. And in Ukraine itself, ordinary people continue to do unordinary things. When the Russian invasion started, an international organization evacuated their stuff to another countries or to more safe places. And it was ordinary people who helped other ordinary people to survive, who tried to evacuate people from cities and settlements, which is isolated by Russians, who helped people who trapped out in rubbles of residential buildings, who provide medical and other assistance. It was ordinary people. That's why I'm strongly believe that ordinary people have a lot of power. And it's on display for you every day in many different ways because that Center for Civil Liberties, it remains committed to cultivating culture of rule of law, as well as peace and human rights for all, even in the times of war. And I think that's what's so extraordinary is to see the way that you've been able to bring together people to express their best features, even in the worst of times. It's always a challenge. We never decided or we couldn't choose a country in which we were born, the time in which we are live. But we always choose whether to be honest and active people or not to be honest and active people. So I'm glad to see that a majority of Ukrainians decided to be brave and to defend our freedom, our people, our dignity and our future. Because Putin tried to return us to the past. He tried to restore Soviet Union with his authoritarian running of the society with no respect to human dignity, with no future. And we will resist. And that's one of the most important parts of the Center for Civil Liberties. It's demanding a new direction with internal institutions, but also international institutions to hold the perpetrators accountable for the horrible acts of violence, but also to build a new vibrant democracy where everyone's voice can be heard. Yes, it's very important because now we faced with a gap of accountability. What do I mean? In July this year, our general prosecutor told that they have registered 26,000 of criminal proceedings. 26,000, it's an enormous amount to investigate. And it's very obvious that even the most efficient national system in the world couldn't investigate effectively, especially during the war, 26,000 of cases. Unfortunately, we couldn't rely upon on international institutions in this task because when we speak about international criminal court, which started its investigation on Ukraine, international criminal court will focus only on several selected cases. So there is a gap of accountability because it's a question who will provide a chance for hundreds of thousands of victims of war crimes, which Russia committed in Ukraine, even a chance for effective investigation and for justice. And now we're discussing different ideas how to fill this gap. And one of them is creating of international hybrid tribunal on war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, which will work additionally to international criminal court and which will be like a vaccine to national system to make it stronger. Because this model provides opportunity for national investigator work together with international investigators, where national judges work together with international judges. That's very invigorating to the international system to come up with such a hybrid approach on human rights and war crimes, because you can point out with the Center for Civil Liberties, you recognize the cycle of impunity, even from previous Russian aggression in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria and other countries. That's why you're then bringing the information and not waiting until after but actually documenting while it's happening and sharing that information as it unfortunately painfully occurs to people. And that's what's so beautiful though is that you're able to then meet and sort of begin to restore the humanity of the people who have had those crimes perpetrated against them. Exactly. Because Russia use a war as a tool how to achieve their geopolitical interest and Russian army use war crime as a method of the war. They made war crimes deliberately. It's intentional policy, which is legitimized by top military and political Russian officials. And Russian army committed war crimes for decades in Chechnya, in Moldova, in Georgia, in Syria, in Mali, in Libya, in other countries of the world. And they have enjoyed impunity for decades. And this resulted to the atrocities now, which we see in Bucha and other cities and settlements in Ukraine. Because Russians for decades of impunity, they really started to believe that they can do with other people everything what they want. We have to break the circle of impunity, we have to stop this atrocity in future. No, and it's it's positive to see that in Ukraine people are saying never again is not just a slogan of history, but a principle and a philosophy for organizing for peace, positive peace in everyone's life today. Because we have a respect for human life. And now we are in a war, we have to defend our land, our future, our people, our dignity. But it's like self defense. We never captured any other territory of our neighbors. And because we have respect for human life and for other nations. Yes, it was so powerful to meet you in person at the Oslo Freedom Forum and to hear your presentation. What were some of the impacts after people heard your message in Oslo earlier this year? The most bright memories from Oslo Forum for me was when I met in a hall, after my speech, my colleague human rights defender from Libya. I don't know her before. She's told that she very well know what I'm talking about when I spoke about how Russians deliberately shall in on schools and rape women. And she told Russians do the same in my country in Libya. And I was surprised because, unfortunately, I have so less information about what's going in your country. And she told Wagner. Wagner is very close to Kremlin, its private military company, which Kremlin use as a tool for war crimes and for military goals in different countries in Libya and as well in Ukraine. And I'm now working on establishing accountability for Russian perpetrators together with other colleagues and partners. Also, not because we're seeking justice only for Ukrainian people, but for this my colleague human rights defender from Libya. Because if we will fail, it means that it's only a matter of time in which in your country Putin will go further and will do the same which he did in Libya and Ukraine. And no, the sisterhood and the solidarity that you see there in Oslo, it's among people who know that spirit of Ubuntu, that all is interconnected, that I can't become all that I'm supposed to be unless you also are able to achieve all that you aspire for and that solidarity among humanity, among our souls. And it is great that you were able to meet someone else, but then also to make the connection of how the work you're doing can have a huge impact. And we know, of course, Wagner became a big topic this week because of Ukraine being able to strike that entity that have been carrying out many activities in many of the countries that we had discussed about earlier. There are several things which have no limitation in national borders. And human solidarity is one of such things. That's why this colleague human rights defender from Libya understand for what we are struggling in Ukraine. And I can understand your struggle very, very clear. Also, human pain has no limitation in national borders. And when we describe the horrible stories which Russians do with civilians in occupied territories, it's very understandable for all people, regardless of their citizenship, color, language, or like previous experience. Because first of all, all of us are human beings. And we have to help each other because it's not a war between two countries. It's a war between two systems, authoritarianism and democracy. Putin started this war eight years ago in order to stop our past to democracy. And now he tried to convince not only Ukrainians, but all nations that democracy is a false value because you couldn't rely upon on democracy during the war. That's why all other democracy has to step in and support Ukraine to show Putin and other authoritarian leaders that democracy is working. It's true. You're sharing on the front lines and freedoms from tear, but it's the line that matters to everyone everywhere. Some people might not know it because it hasn't been challenged or hasn't been attempted to be taken away, but you have that flavor in your mouth of freedom and you know how powerful it is, especially when it's challenged. And that might be some of the most powerful aspects of the people coming together in Ukraine to document these abuses. And we know that the National Endowment of Democracy recently also recognized some of the work that you're doing with Center for Civil Liberties, but also some of your other colleagues. How has that been helpful to receive this award or at least the recognition to then document and share all that you've been doing and why is that so important going forward? In my field in which I'm working, it's a human rights field, you receive a word in two cases. The first case when you are in prison, for example, and this award is provided for your courage and just to remind authorities that they captured human rights defenders and have to release him or her. And it's like a gesture of solidarity. And second cases when you belong to society which have very strong human rights character during the some crisis periods of the history of this nation. And now when you speak with ordinary people on the Ukrainian street, we all understand for what we are fighting for. It's very amazing, but my other colleague, Natalia Gominyuk, a journalist who also received this award, he mentioned how she met steel workers in Krivy Riga. It's a small town in Ukraine, maybe not rather small, but it's not so big as Kiev in which I am for current moment. And these steel workers told her that we are fighting for freedom, for example, for freedom of speech. And she was so impressed because when it's something which you not expected to hear from steel workers that we are fighting in this war with Russia for freedom of speech. So we all express these values which we are fighting for. And this award, like I think that belong to the all human rights motives of Ukrainian nations. And it's true, I know that was one of the tenants of your work was teaching and developing civic education. And it seems that everyone is sort of putting into philosophy the practice in Hawaii we call Makahani kaike, Makahani kaike in the action that is where the knowledge is. And it seems that now steel workers are definitely understanding. And of course it's what everyone knows, but we're never able to exercise that right of self-determination. So brilliantly as you are due to the difficult circumstances and conditions that people of Ukraine are facing. Enlightenment, it's a huge power because we are nation and transit now we are fighting for our democracy and still we have a lot of home task to do because for Ukraine victory is not only to repeal Putin troops from Ukraine. For Ukraine victory means to build a sustainable democratic institutions, to have a chance to live and build a country where rights of everybody are protected, judiciary is independent, government is accountable and police do not beat peaceful student demonstrations as we saw eight years ago during Maidan on revolution and dignity. So we have a lot to do and enlightenment of ordinary people why it's important, it's a very powerful tool to achieve this goal. And it's true when you describe the enlightenment that people are experiencing it's what we all aspire to. And I think that's one of the beauties of the UN Charter when it was being created to document human rights. It was say that this is are the elements that every country and every person should be able to exercise and that the governments must uphold. And we know now that many countries can stumble, but we don't fall below those basic human rights for equality and dignity, inequity for all and what you describe society it's basic that the police are not committing crimes against their own people, that people can vote and make sure their voice is heard and they can choose who represents them and more importantly that they can actively exercise democracy and make sure that they can choose who is actually going to make the decisions to perpetuate the positive peace for all people in the society. I think that's the right to decide your own destiny. It's about human dignity and authoritarian regime deprived people this right to choose and deprive them dignity. They try to impose a scheme that you are all stupid, gray and non-educated to decide your future and I will be your authoritarian leader who will tell you what you have to do. That's why it's not a model which appropriate for Ukrainian society. You can take any sociological polls. Freedom is the first values for Ukraine. It's true and how can we how can people watching now here in Hawaii and around the world how can we assist with the current conditions in Ukraine as we close our conversation this evening? You ordinary people have the possibilities to choose hundreds of methods how to assist in the situation. You can write about Ukraine about on your social networks. You can join to solidarity movement which press your own government to provide more assistance to Ukraine. You can collect the nation for Ukrainian refugees or for Ukrainian military or for Ukrainian injured people or for Ukrainian illegal imprisoned people. You can take an active pose a position in this battle and your input is very essential. Every input of every people is very essential. Thank you so much for spending time and I remember just last week in Geneva I met two young mothers with their children and they also shared with me some actions that they wanted me to take on their behalf so it's true. We can meet people in the street, we can talk with one another, we can make a difference. Thank you so much for joining us today. Malohia Makeapono, peace with justice to you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.