 Or two and I'm making an announcement for a friend one of our neighbors as an artist who has gotten a grant to Builds an archway to City Hall Park It's gonna be a I don't quite and quite understand her vision But it's gonna be awesome because she's going to incorporate flowers into this archway to the park So she's putting a call out to all City residents to contribute flowers so that she can press them and Incorporate them into this archway. So she's collecting flowers Through September so you can meet her at City Hall Park on the corner of Maine and St. Paul where the which is where the archway is going to be and Bring her the flowers directly to her. She'll be there every Thursday through September between 5 and 6 p.m She's also happy to come to your garden and collect the flowers directly if that would be better for your schedule So I believe she'll be putting things out on front porch forum, but I could also give you her info if you come and see me Everybody my name is Ivan Clipstein I'm a old North End illustrator and I just want to quickly announce that the Vermont Arts Council for the first time ever has opened up voting for the creation grants to a Direct democracy public voting and it closes on Sunday night at midnight and I happen to be one of 87 artists in the running You may remember me from a few meetings back where I proposed a Free multilingual community wall calendar for the old North End and beyond Which did get a bit of funding from the wards 2 and 3 NPA and thank you for that And so if anybody would like to vote for this new project of mine I have these little flyers with a easy little code that you can zap on Your phone and you can read a little bit about it Or you could also just go to the website and scroll through the other 86 proposed projects If you like one of those better vote for that one I'm not saying you need to vote for mine, but if you want to you're very welcome to I warmly invite you to and Yeah, I've done a lot of old North End related art and artists books and stuff like that And so if you'd like to support me in continuing in that local tradition, you're very welcome to you. Thank you Any other any other announcements? Seeing none, I'll make one of my own So it's been a little over a year since our late friend and colleague Tony Reddington has passed away For those of you who are not familiar Tony was active in walking biking pedestrian safety issues and had the experience the other night of being scrolling through the Google Maps and low and Behold the roundabout on Shelburne is now listed as the Reddington roundabout. So I was quite happy to see that so It's amazing what we can do when we come together as a community. So on that note No more announcements will move the show along and moving up next is mr. Charlie Ginoni who will be talking about the new district map and about the need for election workers from Ward 3 Charlie Okay, so the first thing I should clear up is I'm no longer on the steering committee for wards two or three So my term just ended So that's actually kind of a good segue So I'm going to talk about three things tonight as briefly as possible The first one I'm going to talk about is if people know what Ward they live in So whenever you have a redistricting in a city the middle of the city gets redistricted more than anyone else So more people get shifted and in this case, it's Ward 8 2 and 3 So I'm totally encouraging people to go to their to city website and To look up clerk treasurer's office and to look up elections and to look for the maps So that you can figure out what Ward you live in which which Ward you need to vote in Because I can guarantee you I've worked at the the polling places for years and what's going to happen in March Is that a lot of people are going to show up at the polls thinking well? I voted here for 10 20 30 years and now you're telling me you're not going to give me a ballot Because we're gonna have to say you're gonna go out that door up the street and way over there to vote so You really need to know what Ward you live in another thing That's going to happen is people are going to show up at the polling place Thinking they're just going to drop their mailed in ballot off They say well, I've been doing that since we started doing it It's like we're going to look at it and see if you're in the right ward And if you're not in the right ward We're going to send you out the door down the street to go somewhere else and you might not have time to do that So I'm strongly encouraging everybody to go to the city website Look up clerk treasurer's office Look for elections and look for maps and so you select the map There's actually going to be two of them one is the new one and one is the old one And there's a legal reason they both have to be there But get in there pull it up zoom in until you see your house and that'll tell you what ward you're in So I strongly encourage everybody to do that because I guarantee you 50 or 100 people are going to go to the polls in wards 2 and 3 in March and they're going to be told to go somewhere else Okay, that's the first thing The second thing I want to talk about is the the way the city of Burlington is laid out So right down the middle of the city from UVM to the waterfront From North Street over to Maple Street So in that area of Burlington historically people do not participate in the boards commissions and committees in the city So technically if it was all random who got appointed to those boards You'd have like 12% of the development review board would be from Ward 1 12% would be from Ward 2 12% would be Ward 3 etc But you're gonna find that in the new Ward 8 and the new Ward 3 Which is in that strip right down the middle of Burlington from UVM to the waterfront That has the lowest participation on boards commissions and committees in the city So you only get like one or two percent participation on the boards so Having said that I Guess I'll talk about number three first so I Encourage anybody who lives in the new Ward 3 or the new Ward 8 to apply to get on boards and commissions and The best way to do that is to call City Clerk's office and say I want to be on a board of commission There's 50 of them. There's 50 boards and commissions And committees in the city of Burlington and they always have vacancies But when you do that, they're gonna give you a form to fill out It's gonna ask for your name and your address But I strongly suggest when you get that form in big bold letters You say I live in Ward 3 or I live in Ward 8 because anybody looking at that form Especially if they're on the city council and that's their responsibility to select the people appointed They want to know if if an applicant is in Ward 3 or 8 because they're gonna want to get people on That board they're gonna want to get more people in the city from the center part of the city on those boards and commissions So please consider getting on a board of commission especially if you're in Ward 3 or Ward 8 the new Ward 3 and Use that little trick and then talk to your city councillors and make sure they know that you're applying for something Because they should get a very strong Consideration if you're a resident of Ward 3 or Ward 8 because it's so underrepresented in the city The last thing I'll talk about the third thing Has to do with the elections. So Ward 2 and Ward 3 just had a big district Redistricting and so what ended up happening is almost the entire workforce From Ward 3 which is the largest workforce and the most skilled and experienced workforce in the city They all got they all now live almost entirely in Ward 2 So suddenly you have Ward 3 which had the largest and most experienced crew in the city Now has almost nobody Left to work at the polls. There is one inspector Barbara Alsup and I hope she continues But so I'm just encouraging people to start thinking about working at the polls So that we can help staff Ward 3 and we have to build it back up from scratch on the short term We've got a solution for that because people like Julia de Petro and I and kid Andrews are going to help the new Ward 3 So even though we don't live there We're actually going to help them. I'm assuming Julia is going to help. I mean I spoke to her earlier tonight I think she's going to help So we're going to help Ward 3 get reconstituted. So please consider becoming a like an assistant poll official in Ward 3 if you actually want or in Ward 2 and If you're interested in being a ward clerk, we won't just abandon you. We'll actually train you so like I'll hang out with you for the entire 18 hour voting day Even though I'm probably only going to be an assistant poll worker, but I'll if someone's interested in being the new ward clerk I'll stick with you all day long. We're not just going to throw you out there because it's very complicated and Everything has to be done exactly right according to Donald Trump So anyways So those are the three things the first thing is please look for what Ward you live in to save Yourselves and the poll workers a lot of trouble in March So I'll probably have the same presentation to you probably in December and in February so please look up your polling where you actually live and where you're going to be voting from and consider working at the polls especially in Ward 3 and Ward 8 and Consider being on a commission a board or a committee in the city of Burlington, especially if you're from Ward 3 or 8. That's all I got for you Thank you All right, thank you very much for your time and feel free to ask me any questions out in the audience. Thank you Thank you, Charlie and to build on what Charlie said make sure to look at the map Last time I checked the lookup tool was not working correctly It still had the old data as of like a week and a half ago. So I'm not sure that that's been updated But the map is correct. So Alrighty moving on to the next item, and I don't have my agenda We say organized tonight. All right So now that Charlie's giving a spiel. We're still running a good five minutes. I had a schedule We're gonna break up into wards to do the ward elections for the steering committee members for 10 minutes So I'm over here. So if you're Ward 3 for the new map come over on this side and over there We'll do Ward 2 and we'll get that rolling here in a second generally if you live south of North Street and West of South Union you'll be in the new Ward 3 if you're north of North Street your Ward 2 There's a little bit of a area over by Green Street. That's part of Ward 3 as well and you see that on the map. So Yeah Even with the TCBs and then so we have Sam Pine Rex All right, everybody, I think we've succeeded in moving forward with the elections We'll try to get the train back on the tracks here. I may have to use the outside voice All right, folks, we'd like to try to get the meeting back on track here now that we've got the elections Delt with we could get somebody from the Ward 2 group to report out on the steering committee elections Erica hi everyone. I am Erica from Ward 2. I use she her pronouns Hello, everyone. Can you all hear me? Thank you. Hi, I'm Erica Faulkner I am was previously on the steering committee in Ward 2 got reelected just now. I use she her pronouns so we we all voted and Reelected myself Molly Roxanne Shelby who's not here Lauren and Jess So we were not as blessed with as many candidates over in Ward 3 and despite some threats to twist some arms I still wasn't able to get some candidates to come out, but we did get our minimum three numbers I was lucky enough to retain the seat here and continue for yet another year Amy will be joining us and Michelle who is Somewhere will be our third person So obviously we can have up to a maximum of six people probably not obvious because unless you're a nerd and you Read the bylaws like I do But yeah, so we have room if there are other people I just want to say that with the new Ward borders Ward 3 is now gone a little bit further south than it has been We do have the King Maple neighborhood in Ward 3. It is Vermont's largest community of color So I personally would like to see us make some effort to bring in some folks from the southern part of the ward to Give them some representation. So Alrighty getting back on to the track here. I keep losing my agenda All right And right here. Well, go do Joe. It's the city of look at that. It's the city council and school commissioners update here with it Here you go. Okay. Thank you I Don't have that many updates. I think I would rather use this time if folks have any pressing questions that don't relate to The next couple of agenda items I will note that we will be making a decision about the McNeil district energy Proposal which will be presented on after this in the next couple of months. So I definitely encourage folks to Stay tuned into that conversation. And if it's important to you, which I hope it is Encourage folks to show up to the city council meetings when we're discussing that And I will do my best to notify folks on front porch forum about that I know we have a big discussion on the opioid crisis and Public safety which is front of mind for so many folks right now So I want to make sure that we have plenty of time for that And I know counselor grant is on zoom here. So or yes, great so I will kick it over to Milo and I'm happy to answer any questions that folks have Thank you Joe You know one second. We've got questions in the room here. Oh sure Do we have a Great, thanks Thank you. Sorry Milo. I could also ask this question after you speak, but just because we've been having that conversation about Voting and the impact of the redistricting on that one thing I just wanted to mention and I don't necessarily have a solution for it But I think it's something that just needs to be mentioned and it would be nice for the city council to be thinking about it Is I'm in the new Ward 2 but I was previously in Ward 3. This is my daughter and I'm a person with a visual impairment who Votes using the accessible voting machine and I have been for the last seven years and in Ward 3 and You know the the poll workers have kind of gotten used to now I think they make a big effort, you know They sort of like know that I'm coming and they know how to use the accessible voting machine And I do think there's going to be like a disproportionate impact on individuals with disabilities that have been redistricted Because poll workers You know have relationships with those people and kind of know what you know the accommodations that folks are going to need might be that they can sort of anticipate And now I'll be no voting in a new location with folks who maybe have never touched the accessible voting machine before so That would just be like something I would encourage the council to be thinking about in the redistricting And having people voting in new places like are there new barriers to Folks with disabilities that might sort of arise as a result of people switching Ward. So thanks. I just want to mention that Yeah, thank you for bringing it up and that's definitely something that we'll be talking about is You know, I'm hopeful that there's going to be a robust outreach effort letting folks know that They may have changed wards and that they're going to be voting in a new location and Ensuring that our elections are accessible should be a top priority So we'll definitely be talking about that. Thank you. Okay, Milo. I think you're Good to go Thank you. I I just wanted to say I wanted to save the minutes for our discussion later and Talk about the resolution that I put forth at the public safety committee meeting and also What Joe has helped to write along with the mayor And just give everyone the background information What we hope the goals will be and I'm putting together a post for front porch forum Where I'm going to include the original conversation About the resolution the follow-up conversation So there'll be links with the specific time points if you don't have you always encourage everyone to listen to all the meetings But if you have limited time, it'll have the time points for exactly the discussion related to the resolution declaring a health crisis in the city and Also at our last city council meeting. There was some pretty information important information that was shared about Getting access to monies from the opioid settlement and where we stand with that. Thank you Absolutely, I wasn't planning to speak tonight as a school commissioner, but Jeannie waltz is not here so I can step in I live in Ward 4 actually, so I'm a new North Ender, but Along with being in the Senate. I'm also a school commissioner. So a couple quick updates One you may have read about BHS that it is looking like it's going to cost more than we had initially anticipated We're hoping to get support from city council and the mayor on that But due to supply chain issues the cost of steel lack of workforce, etc Unfortunately, it's it's it's looking like it it is going to cost more At the same time that's you may have read that the project is pushed back a little bit So we're looking at 2026 Which means we need to renegotiate a lease with Macy's so there's a lot going on when it comes to be a just needless to say IAA integrated arts academy is Also going to be getting some very Overdue work done and we're hoping that the we can use St. Mark's Church on North Avenue as Swing space when that as that project comes to fruition and then last but not least If you get a chance, please thank Jeannie waltz. She has worked really hard on a new equity policy for our district Which basically every policy that we work on and that we That we write will have to go through this equity lens before It comes to a vote The school board we have not voted on it yet, but we did look at it. We had a first reading last week But Jeannie's been really instrumental in it. So I applaud her work and If you have any questions, I could try to answer them Thank you for listening Already, we'll keep rolling along here. The next item is One of these days I will hold on to the agenda. I promise All right, we're gonna talk to bad the McNeil district energy proposal We'll get started with Darren Springer from BED who will present we've allocated I think 15 minutes for this one. So five minutes for presentation five minutes for the counterpoint and Five minutes discussion possibly more Thank you, Darren. Okay, everybody can hear me Okay, I'm Darren Springer general manager with Burlington Electric Department We've got just a few minutes. So we're not going to be able to cover everything necessarily on district energy But wanted to come and talk about it because as councilor McGee mentioned It may be coming to the city council in the near future. So wanted to provide an opportunity to share some information answer questions I think we're gonna have some slides up here on the screen So if we can start we can just go down to the next slide This is just the about Burlington Electric slide But the one thing I wanted to mention on here for anybody who's interested in more information We have a web page dedicated to the McNeil plant that has a lot of information third-party studies Q&A Even a webinar that we hosted earlier this week with other communities from Lund, Sweden Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia and St. Paul, Minnesota looking at how they have used Their own biomass district energy systems as part of their climate plans as part of their energy plans So feel free to visit Burlington Electric comm slash McNeil all that information is posted on our website Next slide, please So why are we talking about this? Why are we focused on it? Like I think probably many of you we come at it and I come at it from a climate angle first Our net zero energy roadmap that was commissioned back in 2018 2019 I remember coming to this MPA meeting and talking with you all about it Really set an ambitious goal for the community to try to reduce and eventually eliminate fossil fuel use in the thermal sector Which is buildings and then in ground transportation and if you look here I hope everyone can see let me get out of the way so you call can see that if you look here at our Tracking of that data. This is commercial sector and residential sector natural gas use You can see we were kind of trending in the right direction for a little bit And then we had a little bit of a bump or a rebound whatever you'd like to call it and particularly Commercial sector natural gas had a pretty pronounced rebound. So I'm coming back. I just want to make sure everyone could see the slides So when we look at that data The commercial sector natural gas use has been our biggest challenge when we when we look at the roadmap We're actually doing better than the pace required by the roadmap when it comes to ground transportation So we look at this and we think about district energy and we know that district energy could take 16% of the commercial sector natural gas use off the table It's the single biggest step we can take to reduce commercial sector natural gas use in the city of Burlington So that's why we're here. That's why we're talking about it. That's what our motivation is next slide, please And this is just going to what I just spoke about this is the combined emissions and you can see it's actually a little bit better Because it includes the transportation sector where we're having a little more success than we are with buildings next slide, please This is a little word heavy. So it's a little hard to see I think but I'll try to summarize What we're talking about here is McNeil, which has been in operation for around 40 years now We have four professional licensed foresters who work with us who work with the forest lands and the property owners That provide us with the wood chips to make sure that we're doing it sustainably that we are having a benefit So we had a review done of our areas where we harvest between 2007 and 2020 and they added a net of over 24 million tons of co2 storage in live trees during that period of time So by by actually managing those lands sustainably they have actually added more tree carbon than has been cut that has been lost So that's a positive from a sustainability standpoint The other piece up here that is mentioned is and there are links in this as well So we can we can share the PowerPoint the National Renewable Energy Laboratory for the Department of Energy did what was called the Harmonization study they looked at 3,000 different life cycle analyses of different energy sources They found that biomass bioenergy had a median life cycle emissions for about 52 grams per kilowatt hour If I'm remembering correctly, I know the slides a little small you can pair that 486 grams for oil and over a thousand for coal or sorry 486 for natural gas and Over a thousand for coal 840 for oil So the idea here is if you're looking at emissions when it comes to bioenergy It's some of the most complex carbon accounting that exists and you have to look at it on a life cycle basis You cannot just consider it at any one point in the cycle. You have to look at the entire life cycle next slide please This is just looking at our fuel supply and I'll summarize by saying that our fuel supply at McNeil is maybe some of the Most carbon favorable in terms of wood chip use that you could have We used to use up to 10 percent of round wood and you can see that represented here this past year 2022 less than half a percent of our fuel came from round wood Which is lower value wood that is not saleable for any other purpose The vast majority of what we get is when somebody is going into the woods to harvest for a higher value wood product like lumber Saw logs etc, and they're leaving residue tops limbs other pieces of the tree that can't be utilized They're able to chip that they're able to provide that to us as it would otherwise decompose and emit carbon over time And we're able to utilize it for energy essentially as a waste product In addition about 10 percent of our energy our wood chips are coming from mill residue So this is wood that's left over from a sawmill for example and about one and a half percent from the waste wood yard That maybe some of you have used to drop off clean untreated wood So we are not going into the woods and cutting trees for energy That's not even economic to do even if you wanted to do it what we're getting is the leftover Waste wood that would otherwise not necessarily have a value and we're able to provide a value back to the landowner to Keep that land as working lands as opposed to being pressured by development the Vermont emissions inventory says development is the biggest threat Essentially to forest lands. We're seeing a lot of land converted from forest land to develop land. We want to keep it as working lands next slide please So we're here to talk about district energy You can see hopefully a little bit the map up here Of the route where we go from the McNeil plant and we come up a couple miles to the University of Vermont Medical Center Which would be the main customer the main potential customer for the project? It could also potentially interconnect with several UVM buildings It could also potentially interconnect with intervail center buildings or other buildings But the medical center would be the primary Connection point here and what you can see is the proposal is to use or is to reduce 225,000 mm BTU a year of natural gas and that's provided by 191,000 mm BTU of steam coming from the McNeil plant, which includes waste heat as well as additional steam. Hello And then in addition there's some efficiency gains as part of the project as well at the medical center And that's the additional 34,000 mm BTU that gets you to the 225 and that's what gets you 16% reduction in commercial sector natural gas use next slide please and Then just lastly this is my last slide and I know we're short on time potentially We had analysis. This is on our website by a company called first environment They used something called the greet model which was spelled out in the state's recently passed clean heat legislation as an appropriate lifecycle model for analyzing greenhouse gas emissions from a project like this and it found that the McNeil based district energy project Would cut greenhouse gas emissions over 95% compared to natural gas So that's just one more point I want to leave you with is there's been a lot of discussion. There'll be more discussion tonight I always appreciate coming to this NPA because it's always active. There's always a lot of good questions and good attendance I'm a ward 7 resident myself and we'll be at that NPA later this month If somebody is looking at this and comparing it we need to look at McNeil We need to look at our harvesting practices. We need to look at our proposal There's a lot of discussion about hypotheticals generic analysis. What we do at McNeil I think is relatively sustainable and unique You could do biomass very poorly and there are areas maybe in the country or in the world where that's done That's not the practice that we have here We're really proud to be trying to bring this forward to the community after 40 years of discussion to have a project That's actually engineered design shovel ready potentially to move forward. So we're excited to be here talking with you about it Let me stop there. Glad to answer questions or or or just listen for the rest of the conversation All right, thank you. We're gonna have a counterpoint presentation from Nick and Ashley and When they will done we will move into the question discussion phase of the agenda item. Thank you Hey Scott, I'm seeing a computer until here. So if these guys have some slides I want to make sure that they're able to get them up on the board as well Hi, I'm Nick Per Sampieri and I live in the new Ward 3. This is Ashley Adams Bear with us while we pull up our slides Now let me get started The McNeil generating station is the largest stationary source of greenhouse gases in the state of Vermont It emitted 453,000 tons of carbon dioxide in 2021 It operates at 26% efficiency What that means is is that for every four trees that are taken out of the forest and burn in McNeil One tree is converted into electricity It burns four hundred thousand tons of wood chips per year burning wood There are two problems with burning wood to generate electricity First it emits more carbon dioxide per unit of energy produced than any fossil fuel natural gas and even coal and The second problem is that it impairs the forest's ability to take carbon out of the air and sequester it large trees store far more carbon than the smaller trees that replace them After Burlington Electrous Harvest in order to address climate change we need to both reduce emissions and Enhance the ability of our forest to sequester carbon Ward 6 presentation last week But we have a different presentation this week that I'm trying to share from my screen Sorry So I'm not sure who's Have you stopped sharing it so that I can share my screen or who's in charge of that Scott Actually, if you're not logged into zoom I might suggest you log in zoom and do that. Okay, there you are Burlington Electric has put a number of studies on their web page and Darren Referred to one of them all of which claim these incredible decreases in carbon emissions by using wood 85 or 90 percent less than natural gas they claim in This and each and every one of these studies that they're using Does not count the carbon dioxide emissions that come out of the stack This is their theory This is directly out of one of their reports the report That Burlington Electric claims comes from their third-party experts at VEC Their theory is that when you burn wood It goes into the air and it is immediately absorbed by the trees But when you burn fossil fuels, it just goes up into the air This is absolutely crazy The trees don't know whether the co2 is coming from burning wood or from fossil fuels In fact treat in fact trees absorb about 30% of our co2 emissions from fossil fuels So they shouldn't get credit For reducing the excessive emissions from burning wood just because the trees absorb carbon dioxide And even if you could Claim that credit it takes many many years for the trees to absorb The carbon that's emitted by burning wood a meta-analysis of 245 case studies indicated that if you burn whole trees it would take a hundred two years Or I'm sorry 74 years a hundred two years for round wood 75 years for mixed feedstocks. It's someone less. It's less if you burn residues such as tops and limbs So the reality What we should be doing is moving towards more use of wind and solar Because then you're not emitting any carbon dioxide and the forests stay intact If you emit fossil fuels at least you're emitting co2, but the forests remain intact If you burn wood you're emitting more co2 than if you burn fossil fuels And you're taking down some of the trees so they absorb less carbon dioxide That's what happens and our concern with the district energy project is that It will increase the amount of wood that's burned and increase the emissions to some extent But we're more but our overriding concern is that investing 42 million dollars in this project Will create insurmountable pressure to keep the plant open for decades And what we should be doing is moving towards cleaner sources of energy We need to get off burning both wood and natural gas We should be Exploring Thermal energy networks. This is something that UVM Medical Center could potentially use This involves a circuit of underground pipes containing low temperature water They draw thermal energy from waste heat as well as Geothermal energy from under the ground This concept and UVM Medical Center Does have several Waste heat sources you see ventilation exhaust cooling towers. They also have plenty of land From which you could tap into geothermal energy This has been used other places. This is the kind of solution. We should be exploring. Thank you Thank You Nick and Ashley and Aaron appreciate your time Do you have some more Ashley very brief? All right not at all just wanted to say that we have been working very hard to get To connect the science with policymakers and with residents and it's been very very difficult because we are up against 30 years of Greenwashing Back in 1984 when McNeil started great idea. We know differently now and you can't deny physics. You can't deny chemistry There were two world-renowned Scientists who came to speak to Burlington before the city council before the two committee in June One of them was the lead author on five IPCC climate reports. These are This is a wonderful brief so that you don't have to watch the long presentation and we have this at the table back there It has some wonderful information about that presentation and just really Concise terms. We've also got some additional information on that back table If you'd like it if you'd like to provide your email address, we can send you some information And then we have a petition to sign if you feel fired up about this And you would like to read the petition and sign it tonight That would be wonderful. We're working hard to to get the word out. So thank you very much So we as far as I know I've heard district heating for at least 35 years I haven't lived here for 25, but it's always been a thing. We're gonna do it at the 14 story It's a 40-year-old power plant, which is an antique You're gonna hook up and make it increasingly dependent UVM depended upon of an antique power plant So is there some sort of backside benefit to McNeil by doing this? You're gonna be able to upgrade to make it even more efficient I don't know how many times I've heard district heating district heating district heating And it was shot down every time for all sorts of the same reasons And there's a lot of even better reasons to just move away from McNeil now I Still haven't heard really good explanation why we're gonna hook up spend how much 32 million dollars on an antique So thanks for the question first point the city is not gonna spend the money The the financing for the project would be by a nonprofit entity that would issue bonds And the bonds would be repaid by the sale of the thermal energy to customers like the medical center So I want to be crystal clear. We're not talking about the city taking on debt to pay for the project It's not the way it's structured McNeil is 40 years old if you're a nuclear plant and you have a 40-year license and you get to the end of that license That's that could be an issue. I mean, there's some serious issues if you're running a nuclear plant You know, that's not safe potentially well beyond its license period without taking care of it McNeil is not like that McNeil can be continued to operate reliably and does so as long as we maintain it As long as we invest in it. We can keep going Wind and solar are great. We love wind and solar and I think we need more wind and solar Wind and solar doesn't replace McNeil McNeil runs During times of the year where the dominant fuel on the New England grid is natural gas If you shut McNeil you rely more on imported natural gas not local wood waste So that's the first point you couldn't replace McNeil with solar if you wanted to and you would have to put in I'm not sure how much battery storage just to back it up You would have to cover about a tenth of the city in solar panels to be able to produce the same amount of energy that McNeil produces For the city on you know, 40 or so acres down in the intervail So it's not McNeil competing with wind and solar. We need all of it and we're for all of it The other point just to get to it is this has never really been proposed before every single effort That's happened with district energy before today has been a feasibility study has been somebody coming in and saying could we do this? What would the economics look like what we've done and we were we were tasked with doing this by by the community There was interest, you know a few years back and when are you going to get this done? Well, we've worked with the firm evergreen that has the engineering expertise We've gone through three phases of feasibility work and we have a designed and engineered project that has real Financials that's actionable never had that in the history of district energy So our job that we've been tasked with is figure out once and for all can we get this done? And we're trying as hard as we can bring a proposal forward We haven't done it yet So give us another couple weeks to get to that point and then I hope everyone evaluates it I hope you look at the economics. I hope you look at the carbon profile Hope you look at all of it and say if we're going to need McNeil for the next 20 years Which we probably do I'd be I'd be challenged to understand how you replace McNeil in that time frame when the grid is Dominated by fossil fuels and we need renewables to displace those if we need it. Let's make it more efficient with district heat Let's do other things to improve it. That's kind of the viewpoint that we take Yeah, Darren. I was wondering if you know what the Marginal rate for new carbon in the atmosphere is currently General rate. Yeah, the marginal rate of removal. So we put new carbon into the atmosphere How long before that new carbon because now we have too much carbon in the atmosphere? Which means it's gonna take so I'll tell you I'll tell you where I'm coming from so if we shut down everything right today 2023 we shut down everything It would take 50 years For our carbon to come back into the normal range So the marginal rate would be 50 years if we shut down everything, but we're not going to shut down everything, right? So actually the marginal rate is about 150 years So for every atom of carbon doc not atom molecule of carbon dioxide that goes into the atmosphere We're talking about 150 years next year. It's gonna be more by 2050. It's gonna be 400 years To bring us back to normal. That's the marginal rate So when you talk about you talk about I don't care about renewability anymore I just don't care about renewability anymore And if you don't know the marginal rate of the carbon you're putting the atmosphere You shouldn't be putting anything out there because that's the truth right now Any new carbon that goes into the atmosphere 400,000 tons per year McNeil Isn't going to be reabsorbed Until we decarbonize So let me let me speak to that Phil Appreciate the thought and it goes to a point that I think Nick was making as well which is Carbon beneficial versus carbon perfect for me. So let's talk about if you're using residues And I think your presentation that was cited said was 18 years for residues. Is that what you're talking about residues? So if you're using residues According to the various literature and you go look at the manumet study, which was produced in Massachusetts If you're using residues for wood energy the carbon payback is favorable relative to natural gas relative to other fossil fuels I'm not saying it's perfect. There's no resource We have that's perfect solar and wind have a carbon footprint to begin with and they pay that off as they produce energy Electric vehicles have a carbon footprint to begin with because of the process of producing lithium Producing batteries and they pay that off as they drive more miles without emitting Biomass some people look at it that way as well that there's a debt and dividend and if you're using Residues as we do as a primary fuel then the payback period is shorter than it would otherwise be and the literature that I have Seen suggests that it is better than natural gas better than colon oil So I'm not suggesting it's perfect and I agree Phil with your Focus on carbon because we're thinking the same way. We're just not looking at this the same way well, so Sure, I'd like to respond to I would like could I could I respond to What Darren just said Like we'll go in order. We'll get you back. Well Nick respond and then we have a question from Liz over here You know Darren Says that they burn residues, you know what their reports say is McNeil's wood supply is primarily eighty eight point four percent in woods chips residues Such as the tops and limbs now that's such as language What leads you to believe that they're using mostly tops and limbs The reality is that they're taking down whole trees and turning them into chips Their contracts are for whole tree chips That is the product that the contracts call for to be provided and And their foresters approve prescriptions calling for removal of whole trees They're required to follow a Harvesting policy for whole tree chipping operations in Vermont and due to public sensitivity they limit individual clear-cutting areas to 25 acres So they're not just burning Well, they're burning residue, but residue can include whole trees Trees which may not be suitable for turning into lumber because of their quality But they are burning whole trees and the payback period for that is on the order of a century If I may I feel compelled just to correct the record just for a moment I was with our chief forester yesterday And if any of you want to talk to a forester in Vermont ask them if it's Economic to go in the woods and cut down trees to chip and send to McNeil They will tell you that it is not We do not use whole trees for energy as a primary resource If somebody is harvesting in a site and they are cutting down a tree for another purpose We take chips from that tree. It is not economic I challenge you to find a forester to come in and say that it's economic to cut trees to chip for McNeil I don't believe you'll find one Thanks, so I feel like this conversation gets really technical really fast And I don't think that I think that does a disservice to people I mean, I think the conversation we need to have is about adjust transition and adjust transition means You move forward at a pace that doesn't hurt the most vulnerable among us And if we ripped the McNeil plant out of the scene Then the most vulnerable people would suffer the most in terms of their reliance and their cost on electricity and gas And if I'm not mistaken McNeil plant generates electricity Not it's not a fossil fuel trees are replanted. There are sustainable forestry policies in place and there's a Lot of information about that but what I wanted to say is that or ask is about the solar About generating Electricity from solar panels. I were you aware Darren that there's an international sand crisis and that Glasses made from sand and that sand is being dredged from incredibly fragile environmental areas in India and Asia and that our demand for that glass for solar panels puts the livelihood of fishing villages in India at risk because of illegitimate sand Dredging so that people who are desperate can make money So I'm not sure we should be going to solar because it's hurting people in other countries a Lot more than the pain we're feeling from you know using a sustainable forestry approach So I've just be interested in your thoughts. There's also something called the solar solar trash wave Which is that people are going to learn about new solar opportunities a lot faster than the 30-year life cycle of their own solar panels And so they're going to be dumping their solar panels And I was just wondering if BED in Vermont have kind of a solar trash wave You know policy and if we're working on that. Thank you for the point and the questions It's a great point because every energy resource has its issues And I think that that's a good way to look at it wind has its issues hydro has its issues biomass solar Fossil fuels have major issues fossil fuels take carbon stored underground put it in the atmosphere when it hasn't been there for millions of years Fossil fuels put neurotoxins into lakes so that pregnant women can eat fish In the Midwest and other areas like fossil fuels are the dominant Emitter that has caused the climate crisis and people have concerns about nuclear too This community moved away consciously from nuclear energy after a period of time We try to be at Burlington Electric supportive of all of the different renewable technologies that can lower emissions relative to fossil fuels I do think you raised a really fair point I've heard it raised in the context of electric vehicles as well We need a recycling stream for the the rare earth materials that are in whether it's in a solar panel Whether it's in an electric vehicle We need recycling streams for those so we can reuse them Batteries from vehicles can be used as stationary storage after their life of providing Transportation solar panels, you know, we have decommissioning policies in Vermont for the bigger projects There's not really a decommissioning policy for like a rooftop project The good news is they can generate for you know pretty long time They'll lose some of their Generation ability, but you can have panels that can run 50 years Maybe at half the output by that point than that what the nameplate rating was So we try to be supportive, but those are fair points and you know We would definitely be interested to support if there are ways through our our electric utility or or Vermont Support best practices that it comes to procurement for that. So thanks for raising that. Thank you, Darren If Nick or Ashley you want to make your response and give you that opportunity if not We're gonna take one final question from Erica if I may and I and I Think that Burlington Electric has done some some wonderful work around You know solar and so forth and I take you on your word there in terms of the solar concerns I think that's great. I do want to get back to I Hope that you all will grab this material here We need to have a reckoning on carbon emissions carbon at the stack at McNeil is not counted currently in Burlington's net-zero roadmap and that needs to change it emits three times more than natural gas Very Clear graph there that you can see it's about carbon. It's not about renewability. Your renewability is another attribute doesn't renewable doesn't matter what matters is carbon and This I just I just need to state that fact and then very quickly We get our power from the grid. We don't get our power from McNeil We happen to have an electricity generating plant called McNeil and it burns wood But that's not where we get our power. It sends power to the grid So some of our electrons certainly are coming from McNeil I don't know how many not many in May when it was shut down for much of the month Did you notice did your power go out? Mine didn't so I just want to I just want to Eliminate that concerns. That's a fallacy that is perpetuated and has been for many years Thank you Ashley we have one final question from Erica and then we really need to move to the conversation on opioids Hello, sorry. Hi everyone Erica Faulkner awards to also just remind everyone when asking questions or discussing Please make sure to share your name and your word to make it easier on our note taker I also want to say thank you all for coming and discussing this topic. I know it's really like You know difficult to have people asking questions and thank you for engaging in this process To making sure everyone is fully informed in everything on that. I was wondering if you two could share the source for where you Earlier you said and I'm roughly quoting that Burlington the McNeil project was going to use whole trees That were deemed undesirable. I was just wondering if you could share that source and how you found out that information We obtained copies of their contracts and I you know I'm happy to provide copies of them to you if you'd like if you give me your email But we obtained their contracts because they filed them. I think with the Public Utility Commission and we also obtained harvest plans and We also obtained their policy that I talked about that said clear cut should be limited to 25 acres So I'm happy to share each of those with you if you give me your email Most definitely I can do that later. So after just a last comment I know we're running short on time. The first point is on McNeil and and Impacts our analysis was if McNeil wasn't running in fiscal year 23 Everyone here me you all of us would have had a 20% rate increase That's how much McNeil was going to protect us against the volatility of the regional markets that we would be relying on if We didn't have that power Second point is on the on the wood harvesting we do not harvest. We are not a harvesting company We're a public utility company. We work with harvesters foresters. We set standards We have contracts that we're an open book. We're municipal utility So you can get almost anything you want within reason the point though is it is not Economic to go cut whole trees now if somebody is cutting and there's a tree that needs to be removed. It's diseased It's damaged. It's taking up space that another You know healthy tree could take you can take that out and you can use that but it's not economic to just ship Bunch of healthy trees to send energy to us We it doesn't make sense economically. I'll stick to that point. Thank you Derek. Thank you Nick Thank you Ashley for getting this and presenting the contrasting points of view certainly a robust community discussion We're gonna break up into the smaller groups now to have the conversation about public safety the opioid crisis and everything going on with downtown, so we've got a number of Tables here that we can all group around I think those of us from the steering committee will kind of float around from table to table to help try to Facilitate if there's any questions, let me know For those of you all on zoom we are gonna attempt to do a zoom breakout I'm not a zoom expert, but I'm gonna talk to someone who I believe is Chris guys hear me We can hear your counselor grant. Thank you so much. Um, could I address the whole room with some information? First would that be all right? Can you repeat the question counselor grant? Could I address the the whole room first? You want to dress the entire room before the breakouts? Yes All right folks, we've got a request from counselor Grant She would like to address the entire assembly before we get into the breakout and she's a city councilor, so I'm gonna grant it Thank you, and I Apologize I I wouldn't spoken earlier. I guess I wasn't clear that there would actually be breakouts So the information I was saving from earlier is what I wanted to review now It's no secret to everyone that we're in trouble We're in deep deep trouble I have talked to many residents back when I was a police commissioner I tried to advocate for residents that lived either next to or very close to or being affected by the various drug houses that are located through the city Everyone knows that our problem here has increased Exponentially, I don't have to waste your time talking about that I I have talked to businesses other residents. I've talked to People who work as a corporate loss prevention for some of the Corporations like TJ max some goods, etc. Who have come to Burlington because of the shoplifting crisis and I see it I I see it People share their stories businesses share their pictures. It's bad So I have been calling for the city to declare this an emergency I Have been calling for it to be an agenda item Because when I talked to residents and businesses, etc. and visitors I know when people say the city council isn't doing anything That is actually true because we don't even have it on our agenda I have talked several times to the mayor about the need for increased communication Increase lobbying because we have a very serious problem in that Governor does not understand what's happening here He vetoed legislations for overdose prevention site, which we need Desperately if we're to support harm reduction in our community So we we need the dealer's dealt with from a law enforcement standpoint, but we cannot solve this without Coming forward with serious harm reduction tactics so Part of the meeting and as I mentioned earlier I'm going to do a front porch forum post that will contain the discussion on a Resolution that would come forward and demand things from the city council Mainly that we are going to be discussing this Issue each meeting that we're going to be providing information to the public And that we need to also recruit residents that means you To lobby on behalf of Burlington Most of the Chittenden delegation legislative delegation Understands what's happening here, but not all of them There are other individuals who are from other parts of the state that are not affected the way we are but what they do in their committees Effects how fast we can get this opioid funds right now these opioid funds are not Moving they are not moving if we don't have those funds We can't even fully start to discuss Getting certain things up and running And if we don't have certain legislation We can't even discuss getting things up and running so we really have to be effective This legislative session and part of this resolution is to have some special public forums with the public But also if people can't attend the forums Maybe you record a video two minute video two minute audio I'm thinking it's going to be a lot more effective if they actually see our faces and Hear our stories. I mean we have businesses downtown That everyone has to come in now by appointment or they have to lock their door. They're not safe in the garages All of our garages are having issues and so on So I don't want to go into all of those stories because I know a lot of you are already familiar with it And some of the information will be In the front porch form post that I'll be doing which hopefully will be posted tomorrow Councilor Grant Yeah, Councilor Grant. We I'm giving you five minutes. We've got to get to the breakouts here if you want to roll Three more things real quick In addition for the lobbying which will be famous last words. Yes Do the same thing data Asking for data from the Burlington fire department has been super engaged Talking about this issue They're doing a lot of work They are showing up at all of these overdoses in addition to the police department. We need more data from the police department We need more engagement from the police department and hopefully that will help it But thank you very much I appreciate the time and hopefully all of you will be willing to do some lobbying on behalf of the city and Thank you for putting up with my facilitation skills now. We will move into the small group meetings here with the tables and we'll go from there, so Yes, we're going to discuss it's an opportunity for folks to come together in a small group setting and talk about their experiences In downtown and throughout the city about public safety and its intersection with the opioid crisis that we are all all too familiar with So what we'll do is we'll have the small groups and we'll have someone report out from each to facilitate the larger discussion rock sand will be coming around with some Note cards and some documents to facilitate that and we will be warming around as well. Thank you It's eight o'clock now. Let's plant a regroup around 820 and have 10 minutes for the report back All right for the zoom folks out there. We do have a breakout room that you may enter if you would like Scott has got that set up Everybody's still alive online out there counselor Grant not at all when the rooms break out Came up it was before I was speaking so I'm just hanging out of people have questions basically Hi, there you are This is Nina you're muted We're gonna try to get this back on the road here for the for the virtual breakout So if everyone wants to start wrapping up, we'll get back together in like two minutes for a group discussion All right, everybody. We're hitting the 820 minute on the clock So we're gonna bring everyone back together here at a second to report out here So if you have not Nominated someone to speak on behalf of your group, please do so I said we're gonna wrap up and if you guys want to report back and Share things Roxanne was kind enough to put together some prompts for me So when we come back out of the small group into the larger session some things that you may have learned from a neighbor that surprised you Also, what if any solutions that you guys talk about y'all What was a common sentiment or experience from your table and what perspective? You have that you didn't have insight into before So I guess we'll start out here with the table in the back here Go I guess nominate director Pinder report out. So our group there was a desire to have more Public education awareness around what are the policies and programs that are currently in place and are being planned and actually Scott Pavek, I think is hanging out with us on zoom to tell us a little bit about that about that one of our members of our table works at feeding Chittenden and sees regularly folks experiencing the effects of substance use disorder and overdoses happen more often than You would want you'd ever want to see I guess one one is more than you want to see but the consensus of our group is that That in our community, there's a real decaying and sort of fraying of the fabric of our community especially when it comes to downtown and that Sort of our notion of the commons is that we all should be able to feel safe and be comfortable and be able to frequent Our community in all parts of it and there's a sense that that is changing and shifting and eroding and there's real Concern that that is a change that will lead to sort of a hollowing out of our community in our downtown And there's a real a concern about that trend Also consensus that we have need to have services all be low barrier And that there needs to be opportunities for treatment that are easily available and everyone knows That they can get access to help when it's needed Thank You Brian moving on to the next table and we just want to lead the charge report out Thank You Carol. I think we had some similar things The first one I'm picking up here is public awareness needs to be improved about the crisis People in my group are suggesting that we have kits in public gathering spots containing Narcan and testing strips and signage and information about safe use and What to do in the instance of overdose? Let's see gave a couple examples of instances of overdoses taking place in public places and addicted people struggling in public places We had a younger person's perspective about how young people are concerned about Lacing that's going on in drugs that they would have considered safe to use such as marijuana and Talk about In places where youth gather like music venues and group gathering spots again need for education and testing strips and Narcan There were a few other topics, but I think that's the gist Thank You Carol move over to thee Try a different man. Yeah, I like this one. All right councillor McGee Thank You, so we talked about Seeing more folks in the neighborhood who are struggling and Finding more needles by particularly by the sustainability Academy, which is a real concern having more syringes by our schools being discarded and We also talked about the increased noise from Just a recognizable increase in public safety responses so constantly hearing sirens from The fire department in the police department Particularly downtown And we talked about some of the solutions that came up in the last legislative session with drug checking in addition to fentanyl and xylazine test strips and we also talked about the opioid settlement money that The legislature allocated that is moving slowly, but is hopefully going to be moving soon And the need to advocate with legislators for overdose prevention centers, which Hopeful will be able to move through the process pretty quickly when the legislature comes back in January So yeah, that's what we discussed Thank You councillor McGee and we'll move over to our table here on the left side of the room Hi, hi everyone. I Have the privilege of being the spokesperson for this group of ward three people we Began by talking or we begin by naming some of our experiences and some of our feelings around Substance use in our community and how that's Scary and fraught Kind of this fraught experience and we went into a conversation about What our responsibility might be Living in this community We named Carrying Narcan we named supporting things like drug checking and overdose prevention centers as Ways to move through this crisis And someone brought up that people who are experiencing addiction and in a really tough place Need a way to participate in our community or We hope that people have a way to participate in our community and move through something that is a disease and It's a disease that's At least I brought up a disease that's also intersects with the criminal justice system a lot and so Trying to reconcile how people can move through that in a way that is rehabilitative And I believe that was a large chunk of what we talked about and just I guess how things are changing at a Rapid pace or at least a perceived rapid pace Thank you, thank you, and last but not least we want to get to our folks joining us with the zoom Is there anybody that wants to raise their hand to report out or have any comments that you'd like to share with the larger group? I can mention what Nina and I talked about a lot of the same things The importance of also the coordination between The fire department and the police department What we need to see more of from the police department The issue of Data I've been really data focused because it's been really important to have heat maps around the city Because that helps to determine where the heavier spots of dealing are And they tend to be near where all the overdoses are occurring And I would say Again the importance of us lobbying because there are a lot of people in Burlington who support the idea of a safe injection site It didn't make it through the legislature and it was vetoed by the governor So we can't just talk about it. We have to lobby for ourselves like Where everyone who does it's like a front porch form posed or a ridded post etc There has to be an email to the governor. There has to be some kind of message To the legislatures to send them back again to say we need this through Um, the opioid money is not moving Uh, I disagree with the mayor on a lot of things But I can tell you that he is very upset about that and I believe that to be genuine He is starting I think to to realize that the state support that we need isn't there And that is a huge huge issue for us. Thank you Thank you counselor grant All right, I guess that concludes our meeting with the exception of mr Scott pavik who will be presenting for us on cito regarding available resources that we can have And we will be doing the door prize If you're still there we'll get you on the way And everyone hear me all right Thank you Yeah, i'm scott pavik substance use policy analyst for the city of burlington I also said on the state's opioid settlement advisory committee as well as the substance misuse prevention council A lot of the content I had planned a covering in a short amount of time knowing my request to present was received kind of late Was mentioned by counselor mickey Mostly as it relates to methadone expansion drug checking and contingency management is funded by the opioid settlement We have determined that those funds have yet to be dispersed by vdh In for a number initiatives not just those that were burlington specific When that money does move I am enthusiastic and hopeful about the effects All three initiatives really could have on treatment engagement and retention if not overdose rates Looking at What might be coming down the pipeline for burlington specific initiatives again? Internal stakeholders are having conversations about development of a public alert system for either overdose spikes or novel substances Of concern that's an alert or warning system that's been piloted with good success in canada and they're mainly in connection to overdose prevention sites, but there are a number of Not municipalities, but other non-profit public health organizations who have piloted statewide Alerts of that type and i'm hopeful that burlington can have something implemented in the near future In terms of resources to cover or discuss here I'm not sure what this group is already aware of, but I would certainly Draw attention to Howard center's safe recovery program the syringe exchange program And their chitin moon clinic has the main provider methadone in the county. That's obviously Become even more critical in our treatment suite since the advent of signal replacing heroin Other than that, there's the turning point center of chitin county. Just our local recovery recovery center full transparency I am a member of the board, but I think i'd be enthusiastic about the services they provide regardless And finally, of course, there's just the burlington police department's crisis advocacy and intervention programs And I have phone numbers for all of these if that would be helpful But that's something that was also issued in the latest burlington police department psa about The overdose spike that was experienced. I think just last week So if that information is helpful, I'm happy to send it again via email To the members of the steering committee to have that shared out, but i'm happy to answer any questions if there are time for any I'm willing to make time and I do have a question um Could you maybe characterize how the face of the opioid epidemic has changed in recent years? I understand you know started with heroin and became fentanyl now We got something called xylidine which is apparently even worse than doesn't really play well with the narcan yeah, um So the the overdose crisis as it relates to opioids began with pharmaceutical opioids going back to the 1990s 2000s the crackdown on prescription opioid misuse and possibly lax prescribing led A lot of people who were dependent on opioids or would otherwise develop opioid use disorder to transition to heroin from Like 2008 to 2013 as a rough ballpark for that period Since 2013 we've seen fentanyl just a more potent opioid really take over the illicit drug market and the latest iteration I guess of Substances of concern involve adulterants that are often found in illicit opioids. So as others mentioned xylizine is a An animal tranquilizer that's been used recreationally or otherwise misused In I think Puerto Rico going back to the early 2000s if not earlier, but something that we really hadn't seen in The 48 48 state Drug market up until very recently up until about 2018 I think is when the DEA first started reporting on xylizine found and essentially how this complicates things is xylizine When involved in an opioid overdose xylizine is another sedative. It's another depressant that Its effects are not reversed by the lock zone, which is the overdose reversal antidote But that isn't to say that Narcan or naloxone shouldn't be used or won't have the ability to revive a person if xylizine is involved So I really want to stress the the importance that Narcan continued to be used even with new adulterants emerging What this does mean is that Narcan might not be as effective maybe multiple doses when one before or Whatever the ratio is may be required And that underscores the importance of calling emergency responders and issuing rescue breathing as soon as possible When you suspect that someone suffered an opioid overdose Thank you scouts any last parting questions for mr. Pavic For once. Alrighty. Well last but not least we're going to do a door prize. Lauren has the honors to Do the the drawing save It's level and who do we have? Chris dots it looks like As chris still here. I don't think chris is here. Yeah, all right That's the that's the rules Nick Tadakis, is that you? Hey, and we have a winner All right get to go home with a nice bag of apples courtesy of shelber and orchard All right, thanks everybody for coming out tonight, you know, you're the guys that make the mpa what it is without you We wouldn't be here. So thanks again, and we will see you again next month. Take care