 PDP charges the Nigerian Senate to reject Onochi's nomination as INEC National Commissioner. And Minister for Information and Culture Lai Mohammed insists on the need for Nigeria to regulate social media. This is Post-Politics and I am Mary-Anna Cohn. The People's Democratic Party PDP has described the nomination of Loretta Onochi as National Commissioner for INEC as a slap on the nation's democracy, calling on the Nigerian Senate to immediately reject the nomination. The party urged the Ahmed-Laman-led Senate Committee to get ready for a civil action in the event of failing to reject the nomination. The National Publicity Secretary of the party, Kalao Lopodion, tasked the Senate Committee Chairman on INEC, Kabiru Gaya, to stop further work on Onochi's nomination, saying the partisan disposition of the nominee makes her membership of INEC untenable. Well joining us to discuss this is Shagun Shopiton, he's a good governance advocate, and Monday Ubani, a legal practitioner. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you for having me. You can leave. All right. I'm going to start with you, Baris Ubani, because you have also petitioned the fact that Loretta Onochi is being nominated to be sworn in as the INEC Chairman. And a lot of eyebrows have been raised on this issue, but let me start by asking why you took it upon yourself to write to the Senate on this particular issue. Thank you very much once again for having me. I'm a Nigerian. I'm also a lawyer, a legal practitioner, and of course a lot of you know my dissident in this country that I always insist on the right things being done. We play the role in the emergence of this present government as a participant, and I voted both in 2015 and in 2019. So I owe that responsibility to the government that is empowered to actually say certain things that they should do right. And if they're not getting it right, they should be in a position to advise appropriately. When I saw that the president nominated Ms. Onochi, you know that lady, Onochi Loretta, I felt that the president has not actually received a political advice, legal advice from maybe the attorney general or those who are his aides concerning the nomination of the lady. Because this is a woman that is actually a special assistant, I order on social media. This is a woman that has never hidden her love for her political party. This woman has not hidden her love for the government that is in power, and this government is a participant in the electoral process that is coming up in 2023. So having somebody that is clearly biased and somebody that is not, I mean, partisan as a member of INEC, it's clearly dangerous and not in tandem with the provisions of the Constitution, neither with the Electoral Act. The Electoral Act is said that you cannot be nominated to be a non-prior when you have any political affiliation. I have a case with somebody who has promised to send to me where she was asked which political party she belongs. As she said, she's a member of APCR and she's unapologetic about it. So why would you want to appoint such a person to be an NNA commissioner in an electoral process in which the APCR is a party? So it is wrong. It's not something that is not within contemplation of the law and I think that the president, as I said earlier, has not received a political advice in what he has done by nominating her. I'm coming to you, Shagun. Many have objected just like Barista Mondio Bani on the nomination of Mr. Noche as the new INEC boss. Apart from Barista Bani, the NBA has also kicked against it. The PDP now is speaking up against it and there are several other people whose voices may not be as loud as the people that I've mentioned. They say she's unfit. That's what they keep saying, unfit for the role. So let's take a quick look. I might not be able to list all the INEC bosses that we've had over the years, but let's just go as far back as the likes of Mauricio Wu, Professor Jega, and now Professor Makmudia, Kubu, et cetera. When we talk about someone being unfit, what qualities are we looking for in an INEC boss that is not one of the qualities that Ms. Loreta Noche does have right now? Okay. So basically, what we have to remember is that we're running a democracy, at least we are claiming to run a democracy, so let's call it Sivoro where we have elections, right? And elections are a fundamental part of the entire democratic process. It's one of the most important because that is how power is transferred from one government to the other. Now, what this means is that whoever is going to be conducting those elections must be, not only must they be nonpartisan, unbiased, but they must be seen to be. All right. Well, let's go back to Baris Albani. Like I said to Shagun, what are those qualities that she's supposed to, apart from the fact that because you're picking on the fact that she's not a political, she belongs to a political party, but in terms of the person who we are looking at today, what are the qualities that we think other INEG bosses had that she does not have that could also not allow her to be fit for this position, just like others have said, that she's unfit for that position? Well, I may not be in a position to impede on her character. I don't have a personal relationship with her, but I have also, over time, seen some of the posts she has made on her social media handle. And most times the posts seem to be very, very bad and in bad shape and in bad light. For somebody occupying the position she is presently occupying, most times the language she used clearly on count, sometimes very, very controversial. There is no sometimes dissent in some of the ways she expressed herself. That, again, is something that I think is not too good for somebody that we call an INEG commissioner. I, certainly, I cannot impede on her character, just from what I read about her. I watch her, usually, say on her social media handle. I don't find such some of the statements she makes, you know, very fanciful and dissent enough. So as, you know, to that extent, I would say that, look, that, again, is something that I find about her. But I don't know how personal relationships provide probably doubt or integrity or doubt or honesty in being on her personal character for that position. But it just, from that far off, when I look at some of the things she posts on her social media handle, and I don't fancy some of the things and the way she expresses herself. That's the only thing I can say concerning her. But where we are hinging our rejection and objection to her nomination is just the issue that she's partisan. She's clearly unfit by virtue of the fact that the position says whoever will occupy that position must be nonpartisan, must be unbiased and must not owe any allegiance to any political party. But this lady owes allegiance to a political party, especially the party that is in power. So what would you do? It doesn't matter. She can also, if he's a member of PDP, they are bringing because that person is also disqualified, you know, even of the position. So he's not qualified to be because the position is specific as to who qualifies to be an a commissioner. But I'm curious, I'm curious, by so many, because she has a likeness for the political party. Yes, I'm curious as to, because I mean, I want to understand, yes, you say you have some facts that point to the fact that she has said before publicly that she's a member of the APC. But until we see that video or that tape, we cannot really ascertain this. But let me just, you know, look at it from another dimension. Are you saying that every person who's appointed and under any government is somewhat loyal to the political party of the part of the government in leadership? I'm I'm wondering, because even though she is an aide to the president, does that really mean that she is a member of the APC? And then again, looking at the people who are or have been, you know, bosses of INEC, I'm thinking every human being is a political animal and we all have our alliances, whether we say them out or not. Can you really just put that on one person and say, well, it's because she works for Mr. President and she's a member of the APC. It makes her unfit to run for that office. What if she's not, but she's just loyal to her principle? To disprove that fact, I told you that I have a court case in which she actually affirmed the fact that she's a member of the APC. And I've also received information from those in our work from our state, who affirms the fact that she's a member of the APC. Apart from that, as I said earlier, there is a particular court case where she affirmed it, even from her post, even from there's a particular court, you know, I'm addressing that is spending all over where she, you know, the war and her firm, you know, low-paciously where she belongs and who she's supporting. She's a special advisor to the president. Look, the point is this. My brother, you know, I said it, my particular friend, who is speaking with me, look at it, look at her, displaying her loyalty to the president. President is a participant in this process. He's a member of the APC, he's a president of the country, no doubt, and he's a member of the APC. You can see the clutches where she has no apology to make concerning that. Now, our electoral process is fundamental. In our recruitment process, we must begin to insist on the the fairness of the process, part of which is the issue of recruitment into the body of INEG. Those who must man INEG, those who will be in charge of INEG, must not only be impartial, must not only be impartial, but must be seen, both in wars and action to be clearly impartial. We have been getting it wrong in this nation and that's why we are where we are. We have not been able to make any progress because we have been doing the wrong thing. If in previous government, maybe they appointed members of political party, you know, without any opposition into INEG, we should not allow this time around. Because it's a government that promise not change. It's a government that said they are taking us to another level. So why would they be doing things that we consider to be like impunity, you know, with some level of arrogance and then bloodlessness and we allow it. Oh, because the previous government allows it. What have we changed? You say you came to change. So you are now in carrying out some politics and some of the things that have been considered wrong and inimical to our progress as a nation. The electoral process is very key. If we don't get our electoral process, you know, right, then we have wrong people who are manning Nigeria and you know, where we have come as a nation with wrong people who are occupying positions. We have not made progress. So I'm insisting that she is unfit and why she's unfit because she has an allied, you know, allegiance to a political party that is clearly in power and that would be a contestant in 2023. So she's not fit to be an umpire that electoral process that will take place in 2023. Okay, I don't know if Shagu is back. Shagu, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Perfect. Um, just as Barista O'Barnie has said, let's look at, um, you know, a case where the, the, the, the presidency insists that she's, um, the INEC boss. Let's take your, let's cast our minds back to the Magal situation. Remember the embryo between the Senate and the federal government at that time. And it didn't stop Magal from being the acting boss of the EFCC for as long as he could stay there before Mr. President changed, you know, um, and replaced him with somebody else. So again, um, are we likely to see as a playback or a repeat of what happened to Magal, happened to Onochi, being that she's the president's first choice. And I don't see any other second choice, uh, in the radar of Mr. President, even with all of this, um, you know, arguments and criticism, even with, uh, the fact that people like Barista O'Barnie are kicking against it and quoting certain sections in the constitution, does this stop the president judging from his body language and how he does his things? Is there going to be any change in the radar? Um, well, so, so the thing is we all have become very familiar with, uh, the person and the personality of President Mohammed Gwari and, and, uh, the way he likes to do things and one of the things that we've come to understand is that he's very, very stubborn with all due respect to him. Um, he's very single-minded in his approach to issues and once he's taken a position, he's, it's very, very rare to see him shift or change position. Uh, I don't know if this is a personal thing for him or if it's because of the people that are advising him. Uh, but like you said, you know, if he could have kept Magu in office for five years without, uh, sending it, um, sending it to confirmation, you know, uh, maybe Mon, uh, Barry Taubani would advise us whether in this case, uh, that, that would be, that would be allowed. But, but I, I think it's very, very important that we say and I do hope that, um, the representatives of the government are listening to programs like this and it's important for, for, for them to understand that this is not just a matter of legality. The legality of the matter is clear. This woman is partisan. Whether or not she's a card carrying member of the APC, everybody knows how obnoxious this woman has been on social media where she's representing the president with regards to our opinions and the way she takes on Nigerians, the arrogance and the, and the share, share, she shared this respect that she, she demonstrates when she's talking to Nigerians on national issues, right. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it goes beyond the legality. We all know that this woman is partisan and the condition is very, very clear that the person must be nonpartisan. So whether or not the Senate, um, confirms appointment should not be the case. Mr. President came into office and into power on the tripod of three things, anti-corruption, economy and security. And one of the major reasons we must not forget this. One of the major reasons that General Mohammed Buhari in 2015 won this election was because of the posture that we have always attributed to him of being an upright man, an incorruptible judge, a man who will not stand for, uh, to, to see wrong things being done. A man who is, um, absolutely determined to stand up and fight, um, impunity or whatever you want to call it, a man that is disciplined. That was the premise upon which one of the fundamental premises upon which he won the 2015 elections. Of course, by 2019 a lot of people have become disillusioned. And I think, you know, this is a unique opportunity for the president to try and prove, um, his doubts as wrong. You know, so this is not a legal issue for me, Marianne. This is a moral issue. The president must understand that a woman that has been your rabid supporter cannot be an umpire in an election that your party will be participating in, not just in 2016. I don't mean to speak over you, but when you say it's a moral issue, when was the last time we tried to do anything morally, uh, in this country without, you know, push and shove or pressure or constitutional, um, you know, or court cases. So really if we, if we're, if we're putting the, putting this whole issue on a moral, uh, you know, way, I'm wondering if, you know, there will be anything to wear on a moral scale, I beg your pardon. I mean, is that even realistic? Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, it's not, you know, a moral issue is a moral issue. You can't compel morality on anybody. So that's why the law courts are there to force people to do the things that they ought to do in the eyes of the law, right? So, but, um, before legality, morality must come and that is the basis of every good society, right? So for me, I'm just appealing to the president and his handlers that they need to understand that they're making a statement and they're for that damaging his reputation and the reputation of their party even in the upcoming elections. Now, of course, you are right, whether they will take that advice is a different thing and that's why people like Barista Oubani, you know, has written their petition. My organization is already putting a process in place to go to court. You know, we can compel these guys to do the right thing and I think it's also important that Nigerians understand this that, you know, we, we, we can just sit by and complain. We can just tweet and post on Facebook and sit on a WhatsApp chat and talk all day. We do have to take action. We do have the power to influence this thing. So for us in act network, we are definitely going ahead to do something about this. You know, I mean, if the president insists on going ahead with this, then I'm very, very sure, not just us, you know, a lot of other civil society organizations have also put their voice out there and I'm sure there's going to be a plethora of legal processes that are going to be filed against this action because, you know, we have to understand this is a fundamental threat to our democracy. This is a threat to our democracy and I think the president and his people must understand it. You cannot have somebody who is the supporter of Manchester United blatantly wearing the Manchester United t-shirt, being the referee in the match that involves Manchester United is just illogical and it's as simple as that. Let me go back to Barista Obani. I do not, I mean, I appreciate what Shagun has said and what, you know, everybody's doing, including you Barista Obani but, and I don't also want to be a prophet of doom but let's just take it, for example, the likes of Serap and other people, even the NBA, that have been so many court cases and suits against the government, has it really stopped anything so far from 2015, when 2021 nothing has really changed in Mr President's body language nor the positions that they've taken, I mean one minute we're talking about the Twitter ban and other things, I mean, here we are talking about, you know, presidential aid who's been nominated to run INEC and I'm not in any way trying to say that, you know, what's your, the move or the steps that you're taking are not in the right direction but, again, we know the Nigeria that we are in, what's the guarantee that these court cases would in any way, you know, bother the federal government and the presidency? Yeah, we will stop pushing for some of the reforms we want in Nigeria, maybe then probably we'll base it all up because the government does not listen, the government does not obey the rule of law, we will, it is courage from pushing for those reforms we feel is necessary and important for the development of our society. Ghanifah we made, the late Ghanifah we made was using judiciary in order to push for some of the reforms, even though you will see that they were probably disobeyed at that time, but today they have formed the the ground norm of our jurisprudence, we are using it, you know, in some of our cases and I believe that a time is going to come in this country where the kind of leadership that will emerge will insist that some of those things that were done wrongly will be condemned, just like Adela Adela June 12th that eventually was acknowledged by the government despite all the deniers are for a forehand. Now what we are saying is that it is a minus for this government, if every time the rule of law is being mentioned, the issue of rule of law, we now acknowledge the fact that they have never obeyed the rule of law, they don't listen to court instruction and judgment, they are always violating and observing them in breach, it is clearly a minus, the water has become a global privilege, so by the time you rate any government and place them on parameter and discover that those things that are very fundamental in practice of democracy that they are missing, it is not a good thing for that government that is power international, you know, you become a parian nation, but that doesn't stop us, the civil society, the activists, the lawyers who are the conscience of this nation to stop pushing for some of those reforms we want in our country and all that, so I am not going to give up or because the president will not listen, because setup has done this and they have not obeyed or Mr. Femi Filana has taken this action or Mr. Bani has done this and they refuse to obey, you know I have obtained several court judgments now, the latest one is the one on bogus, I mean on the issue of jumbo pay for national assembly, I also have sued the president on issue of Twitter, we fired it yesterday, so we keep on pushing on to, we have a country of force, you know, we proud of, a country of our dream, we can stop, we cannot be distorted by some of their relations or none of us. Well I want to thank you, Mando Bani is a legal practitioner and of course Sheghul Shopita is an act network, thank you very much gentlemen for speaking with us. We'll take a short break now and when we return the federal government once again calls for the regulation of social media, well we'll talk about this when we come back, stay with us.