 Think Tech Away. Civil engagement lives here. Good afternoon. Welcome to the Global Report. As of Asia Review that was previously hosting, the show is about having guest experts on to share their perspective on global developments. This afternoon we have with us Ambassador Nura... Nura Sojaya. Nura Sojaya. He's the ambassador of Indonesia to Singapore. Welcome to the show Ambassador Sojaya. Thank you very much for having me. Thanks for being here. Now, Mr. Ambassador, 2017 was the momentous year for Indonesia. Among other things, it marked the 50th anniversary between Singapore and Indonesia and also marked the 50th anniversary of ASEAN of which Indonesia was a founding member. Why don't we start off by talking about ASEAN? Would you mind giving us a little background on ASEAN? How it came about? Well, first of course, I think when ASEAN was first founded there was a lot of skepticism and there was a lot of criticism toward ASEAN because of course we have to also understand that ASEAN is comprised of countries at the beginning with different political as well as legal backgrounds. So the pace of movement of ASEAN was of course at the pace comfortable to all. Then ASEAN is growing, becoming ASEAN 10. And of course the collaborations, cooperation in ASEAN was not only limited to issues that really make everybody comfortable so ASEAN started to talk about political security issues as well as evolving into a community where we also embraced a number of internationally accepted norms and values and that is when ASEAN was recognized to become a community. Now you talk about the differences in political ideologies. Has that been the biggest obstacle towards... Well, this is the learning curve that ASEAN has already been learning in the evolving history of 50 years. So as I said at the beginning they are ready to talk about non-relatively politically sensitive collaborations that they started with cultural corporations economic cooperation. But when ASEAN is evolving of course we also see the responsibility of the organization to really maintain patient stability by entering into issues that was before considered as sensitive including, for example, some issues pertaining to transnational crimes although the legal system is different from one country to another but of course we are here to bridge those gaps in order to really address and collaborate more effectively among countries in the region. What about issues that are more debatable, more controversial such as the South China Sea because we have Cambodia and Laos that have closed ties to China and would rather such dispute be kept out of multilateral forum and we have Malaysia, Philippines and Vietnam that are claimants in the dispute. How does ASEAN deal with that? Look, I was about to tell you that in the evolving history of ASEAN of course we do not live in a vacuum. We live in a very dynamic geopolitical and the region as well as the global level and ASEAN certainly will be affected by whatever the dynamic that we are going to see in the region. Take for example, of course each of the ASEAN member states have their own unresolved territorial negotiations. There are still disputes among some of the ASEAN member states but the most important thing is that we agree that all of those disputes all of those potential disputes that we have we agree that those should be resolved in a peaceful manner through negotiation and dialogue and that is very important. It does not necessarily mean that when we agree on that principles then over the period of five years we will be able to settle that but look at the situations that we have before between Thailand and Cambodia it was because of ASEAN then finally both countries are ready to settle although it was brought to the UN before. Are you referring to the temple? The territorial dispute between the temple between Cambodia and Thailand so it was brought to the UN and the UN was referred back to ASEAN because look you have your own mechanism. Why don't you settle it there? Don't bring it to the UN agenda. When you are able to settle it then you better settle it among yourself. I'm looking at some of the examples that we have already been experiencing in the evolving history of ASEAN. Now coming to the South China Sea I think this again as I mentioned that each of the ASEAN member states still have the unresolved territorial negotiations. Of course the territorial dispute, territorial claims is still there and the situation is becoming very complicated because we are not talking about a dispute between two countries. It's an overlapping claims. If you agree between the two parties it may not also satisfy the third parties and the fourth parties and so on and so forth. So we anticipated that back in 2002 then we agreed to sit down with China, ASEAN and China then we came up with this declaration of the conduct which eventually it will evolve into the code of conduct and now we see the process is moving forward despite the difficulties for us to really make this move very quickly because again we live not in a vacuum. We live in a dynamic world. So then we see now the shift where China becoming number two economy in the world and of course they would like to play a significant role in the region and when we could not develop a conducive environment in the region to resolve the issue of the South China Sea in a peaceful manner so then we will end up in a tit for tat in terms of statement and so on and so forth. So now yes this is a challenge for ASEAN that was the reason why I think from the beginning ASEAN has already been making it very clear. The most important thing for ASEAN is ASEAN unity and ASEAN centrality. Now you mentioned the notions of unity and centrality. I recall that when President Duterte came into power he very boldly announced Manila's departure separation from their long-term airline and realigned their ideological flow with China. How did that affect ASEAN when you have one of your members taking quite a big departure from the... Well that is a matter of each of the ASEAN member states foreign policy. ASEAN is not dictating the foreign policy of each of the ASEAN member states but I think our departure point is that we have a common principles. We have a common objective and goals that we are going to reach and it will not prevent each of the ASEAN member states to take their own foreign policy I mean in a different way so long as this is not contrary to the goals objective as well as the principles in ASEAN. So long as this is not contrary to that I think each of the ASEAN member states can pursue their own foreign policy ways to serve their own national interests. Now you mentioned foreign policy with President Duterte. There seems to be a rather broad perception that he has a lack of interest in foreign policy. Look at what is happening now. I mean people then finally realize that they misunderstood the President. They did not understand very well. I mean the commitment of the President. He is the only President that is visiting I think the second President of Michigan if not the only Indonesian President visiting Afghanistan in trying to help promoting patient stability and reconciliation in Afghanistan. And last month he made a trip to while he is attending the ASEAN India commemorative summit he made a trip to Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh to see the Rohingya in Kokwasa and went to Pakistan as well as Afghanistan. He did that also because he is still also holding a championship of Iowa the Indian Ocean re-associations. So a lot of international commitments that Indonesia is continue to pursue including also our candidature to the non-permanency of the U.S. Security Councils. This again you know if the President is lack of ambition in term of playing an active role in the international diplomacy why we you know putting our candidature in the U.S. Security Councils. I think this is very much consistent with the constitutions that we have. It was mandated by the constitutions that the administration roles would be active in trying to pursue peace and stability in the world. So he really presented with results that it's not that he suffered no lack in foreign policy but he seems to be putting his focus on bilateral relations with different countries. Look you know what is he trying to do is that of course first he saw that in order to make the Indonesian economy competitive we are still lacking in terms of the infrastructure. So that was the reason why he was really nailing at what are the priorities to make Indonesian economy competitive. You know without Indonesian economy competitive then Indonesia will not also be able to play an effective role in the context of the ASEAN community. Without Indonesian economy you know becoming competitive so we will not also be able to you know promote the high economy growth in the region. Look Indonesian are comprising of almost half of the ASEAN populations. So that is exactly the difference perhaps you know he was really addressing the issue of infrastructure development and we see you know over the past three years of his presidency the ease of doing business in Indonesia I think for example just take one indicator improve a job from it was ranked 109 two years ago now ranked 72. It was a significant improvement in addition to that all of the international rating agencies gave Indonesia investment grade and you know this is not happening just like that this is happening because of the efforts put by the administration and his team and this really you know bringing an energy to ASEAN you know to even grow further. This morning I was at the ASEAN EU Business Summit and I think everybody is you know both from EU and ASEAN they are talking about the brighter future that we see you know ahead of us but it does not necessarily mean without any challenges. What do you think are the chances of our Indonesia securing a seat at the UN Security Council. We are working very hard you know as you know that we are contributors of almost 5,000 peacekeeping forces all over the world in the conflict areas. And you were the first you were also the first country that went in that was allowing to the Rakhine state when. Yeah well you know we of course we send humanitarian assistance we are trying to ease the suffering of the people. There are some criticism toward ASEAN in saying that you know what ASEAN is doing you know after what is happening. You know they simply do not see that I think immediately after that the foreign ministers have a meeting and then of course they were briefed by the Myanmar government on the situations. And then they agree on some of the principles such as you know secession of hostility is the suffering of the refugees and providing humanitarian assistance as well as you know in helping how to find lasting solutions on these issues. So it is wrong if we say that ASEAN is not doing anything on that. Well especially Indonesia is not playing a very active role in this regard. Well thank you so much Mr. Ambassador we're going to take a little break here and when we come back we're going to be talking about the diplomatic relations between Singapore and Indonesia. Okay that's you. I want to know will you watch my show. I hope you do. It's on Tuesdays at one o'clock and it's out of the comfort zone and I'll be your host RV Kelly. See you there. Hello everyone I'm DeSoto Brown the co-host of Human Humane Architecture which is seen on Think Tech, Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. And with the show's host Martin Desbang we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live but other aspects of our life not only here in Hawaii but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech, Hawaii. Welcome back to the Global Report. I'm your host Lillian. We have with us today Mr. Ambassador Sojaya who is the international ambassador to Singapore. Welcome back to Sojaya Ambassador. Thank you very much. Now Mr. Ambassador I know that last year also marked the 50th anniversary of the formal diplomatic relations between Singapore and Indonesia. From the beginning back to 1967 things were we had a rocky start didn't we? Well you know as you know that you know they also I mean Singapore also have a situation in Malaysia. The confrontation. The confrontation was there and I think the region was dominated by conflicts or people call it as a proxy war at that time. And some countries newly independent colonization was becoming eliminated. So as a young country of course we face a lot of challenges to move forward. So bilateral relations between Indonesia and Singapore has already been you know continue growing. So last year celebration we used that in order to first you know learn from the lessons that we have over the past 50 years. Number two we also you know see the continuing progress despite the fact that we are still having some challenges as neighbors as always like that. But at the same time also the third you know we would like to see the momentum that we have in order to bring the partnership and cooperation between the two countries to the next level. Now did this establishment of formal relations didn't occur a month was it before? Was it ASEAN or after ASEAN? I think it was a month after. Yeah ASEAN was 8th of August and bilateral relations was 7th of September. So a month after ASEAN established. Do you think ASEAN was instrumental in prompting both countries to come together? I think so you know because I think this is a brilliant ideas of the founding countries of ASEAN. And the brilliant ideas of the foreign ministers who gathered in Bangkok at the time. Because they you know they see what has already been happening in the region and they would like to prevent that from happening. How to prevent that from happening so then you know they establish ASEAN. But even the things that the member states commit to doing now those are voluntary or are there any ramifications if they don't follow through? Look you know at the beginning it was only five member states involved in the establishment of ASEAN. We know that some countries are still facing some problems also. But I think the inspirations at the time is also certainly to include all of those you know includes into the geographical term of South East Asia. So we are talking about Laos, Myanmar and even you know the membership of the process of membership of new ASEAN member states was not also a smooth sailing you know there are some turbulences and there but then finally we agree that you know we include all of the ASEAN South East Asian countries. Now the last I mean the team of state for example has already presenting their official can you know applying officially applying to become a member of ASEAN. Now ASEAN if you're talking about ASEAN of course some countries are even thinking I mean this is not this is not a joke. But this is the fact that you know I was told by our colleague the Norway ambassador to ASEAN. There was a debate in the parliament so I don't know we also joined ASEAN. Papua New Guinea is also making it you know clear that they would like to also apply membership in ASEAN. That's wonderful it's fabulous. Now going back 50 years looking at history between Singapore and Indonesia the relationship. What some of the more significant challenges that came along the way 50 years was a long time for any relationship. What were some of the more significant challenges and how does Singapore and Indonesia work together to overcome them? Well you know there are a number of issues raised between Indonesia and ASEAN that was affecting the bilateral relations in the past. But I think the most important thing is that at the beginning we have a very good personal relations between the leaders of the two countries. This helped a lot. And you're referring to Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew and President Suharto. Yeah President Suharto and President Suharto. So this really helps a lot. And I think after 50 years we think that we need also to involve more and more people to people dialogue and interactions. We should not take each other for granted you know because we are neighbors and then you know we don't need to learn from each other. I think this is the lessons that we also learned in the past 50 years. Now when President Suharto departed was that a big hiccup because now we couldn't depend on the personal rapport. Yeah of course that was you know a major change you know in Indonesia we call it a fundamental transformation in Indonesia. Of course people have anxiety whether this is going to where is this going to bring Indonesia in the future. Whether the relations that we already been developing you know a good personal relations will remain so this is going to change and so on and so forth. But the fact of the matter is that I think you know despite the hiccup that we have you know in our transformation process you see a consistency. I was asked whether the foreign policy remains remains it was guided by the the Indonesian constitution until 1945 remains as what as what it was when Indonesia was first proclaimed its independence. So it remains you know there active and free and active foreign policy remains also very much in pursuit of the Indonesian foreign policy. So well you know there were some worried at the beginning but then they see that you know we are moving toward you know the right directions. I recall in 2013 there was that trans-boundary haze that caused a little bit of tension between Singapore and Indonesia. How did the two countries you know resolve that or overcome that tension that arose? Look you know when we are talking about forest fire you may want to see one of the very famous painting collections made by a very famous Indonesian artist which is very famous in Europe. Now it's still in the National Gallery the collections of Indonesian painters. One of the painting which is I think you know the home of this painting is in a National Gallery. It was dated 1885 and the title of the painting is forest fire. So I mean forest fire is not only happening just now I mean only recently it has already been you know natural phenomenon. But of course it was perhaps made worse with this expansion of plantation which is not sustainable and so on and so forth. So we you know acknowledge that this is a very important issues that we are all committed to address. When we have haze the most people affected the most was Indonesians. Those who live around the forest the city is located not so far away from the forest. I cannot imagine how they live their life you know during haze. But then of course we are putting a lot of efforts. We are trying to address not only to put out the fire but also to do some prevention measures. It's you know it's happened in the past two years. And in 2014 Singapore erected a trans boundary haze act essentially making it a criminal act for any conduct and cause you know haze in Singapore. It's regardless I mean that the law was targeted at companies not the country but Indonesia take it personal. I mean you know our stand our official stand is this is the right obligation of every country to develop their own law. But also we have a stand that you know every country should also protect their own citizens. So long as this is conducted within you know the spear of each of the countries I think we can also enact it. What kind of law that we want to enact and the only problem is the transnational nature of that law. You know whether this is going to be applicable is a different question again. It's a different situation you know whether this is going to be very effective and there's also you know different issues all together. Whether this is going to be effective in order to prevent you know such and you know such an issue. But the most important thing I think we believe that we are ready to collaborate with the international community. And I think it has already been shown in the past two years in the future. And maybe the rest of the countries in the region should be reminded that those days when there are no forest fires Indonesia provided a lot of fresh air to the region in the trees right. I'm not saying that I'm reminding Singapore. Yeah well we don't want to just talk about problems. We don't talk about some of the accomplishments and even a celebration. Last year was the 50th anniversary. What were some of the commemorative events that took place? Where? What were some of them? I know there was a book launch and stands. You know I think our embassy here I think we organize or involve there might be two or three events every month during one year. In the year that's leading up to the actual date. Yeah last year starting from January. You know starting from January we kick off the events by organizing a business forum. And then of course officially kicked off by the meeting of the two foreign ministers. And then there are some cultural events, book launching you know. Even the last December we organized this you know you were participating in that the fund run. I think this is also one way for us to bring Singaporeans and Indonesians to do good things together with this very healthy. And where they can also interact with each other. I mean this is really a very good opportunity for people to interact with each other. But the most significant event of course the pick of the event was the retreat between the two leaders. And the fly pass you know on the sky of Singapore as well as Indonesia. It was really you know spectacular events witnessed by the leaders of the two countries and the people of the two countries. And I think this you know symbolizing a lot of things like closeness the commitments you know. And there was even a tree planting. Yeah you can see if you go to the botanical garden you will see a rising tree. What kind of tree? It's an oak tree. It's a rising tree you know rising is Republic of Indonesia and Singapore. So there's a tagline. Now who came up with that was it Singapore side or Indonesia side? No we both came up with that idea you know when we are preparing for these commemorations. And we are thinking of what is what should be the tagline you know. Then we I mean our I have to give credit to our junior colleagues you know they are. Of course they consulted me and then they came up with how we can do this and then all of a sudden rising is rising 50. It's it was very wonderful and I think we agree also that we are still going to use the rising tagline. But without 50 because it's 51 or even up. So we are going to organize fashion show we call it rising fashion. There will be a project we call it rising project. It's the Republic of Indonesia and Singapore project. So rising so many things you know. And I think this really the momentum that we created from the commemoration of the 50th anniversary. Well that sounds wonderful. Well thank you so much Mr. Ambassador. Thank you for sharing your perspectives with us today. My pleasure. I want to say happy anniversary on both counts and congratulations on both counts. Thank you very much. Thank you so much.