 How do you build Ukraine back from rubble? Okay, and we have a professional engineer and I guess a builder, a builder of better spaces and places for humanity. Manfred Zapka, he'd been at the university for many, many years with Phyllis Horner and they have a company called What Is It Better Places and Spaces? And we'll show the website name shortly. And I don't have to show you the graphics because I was thinking, gee, let's show some graphics of the rubble. But everybody's seen all the rubble. We don't have to show you that. It's been embossed on your mind and memory forever and ever. If you think of nothing from this point forward, think of Ukraine in rubble and death and destruction of every kind of infrastructure, every kind of building, every kind of residence, every kind of road, bridge, what have you. Mr. Putin is destroying the country right down to Brownfield and it's the most tragic outrageous thing we have seen. We thought we saw outrageous things during the Trump era. This is far, far more outrageous. It's hard to describe how outrageous it is. It's an insult to humanity, to the species. So Manfred joins us to talk about what you do at the end game. And I want to quote a sign that I saw floating around the internet, Manfred. This is an Ukrainian woman. It's got a big sign, bigger than she is. And it says, if Putin stops the war, there'll be no more war. If Ukraine stops the war, there'll be no more Ukraine. And so it's really interesting to think about that. But the likelihood is just looking forward is that there's so much devastation already that we have a major project in our hands which will probably get worse in terms of Ukraine. Ukraine, a country that was a 44 million people, second largest country in Europe. Ukraine, which has independent democracy. Ukraine with kindly people. And Ukraine, which has been essentially destroyed. So Manfred, I give you the job. I make you the chief engineer of Ukraine, such as it will be soon. Where do you start to rebuild Ukraine? And how far can you get? And what can you give us as a finished product? Well, thank you so much first of having me, Jay. It's really, you called me up a couple of days ago and everybody's under their impression right now. This is something which is beyond. We didn't think that actually this would be possible. And how can you explain people like being shorted when you try to flee and all kinds of stuff? So it's really depressing. The end game actually, so what do we have? Actually, if Putin or Russia wins or whatever they take over the whole country or then actually they have to decide what's going on there. But it will not be over very soon, I think. This will be a long problem. And I think Mr. Putin was taking a bite, probably which was too big. It cannot be done in a couple of days. This might be 10, 20 years actually down the road. We'll see actually the consequences of that. So let's be actually hopeful and let's be hopeful and say what can we do with that mess? And first of all, so that actually means somewhere the Ukrainians, they will actually still have a country. They can decide for themselves. Because otherwise, what Russia does is very hard to tell what they can, they also have a lot of problems and at their hand. And I think the reason why they got in there, it's not like a spur of the moment it has been brewing for a long time. So again, let's step back a little bit and be hopeful and give also people hope in Ukraine. Because if you look back and if you look what Ukraine is, Ukraine is pretty darn poor. If you, for instance, compare the GDP of let's say United States, what we take for granted and we always say, hey, everything is so expensive. And then we say Ukraine and we actually our GDP is about $20 trillion. $20 trillion. And guess what Ukraine is, $115 billion. So their cross domestic product is about like 1% of what we have. Like what you said, Jay actually used like their population is about 10th of what we have. So they are really doing not well and they had a lot of problems and the problems reach back. And again, like I'm not a geopolitical expert or whatever although I'm very opinionated. But on the other side, actually, what can we do is from engineering or engineering technology standpoint to help. The first thing of course is like, what are the problems? And one of the biggest problems the Ukrainians have is energy. That's not a big surprise, right? The problem is that the country is very energy inefficient. If you, for instance, speak about energy efficiency this means energy service relative to energy you have to invest. And energy doesn't mean like very complicated. If you want to achieve something with energy just make a product or a heater house or whatever the energy efficiency is about three times worse than in Poland, which is the neighbor or 10 times worse than in Germany. So they have a big problem in their hand. If they had more energy that would only be part of the problem because they have to learn how to use it more efficiently. Yeah, and to add it's cold. It gets cold in Ukraine. You need energy to stay warm and productive. That's true. And again, like when you look actually at their primary and a primary energy or let's say the energy which is used for creating electricity over 50% of the energy right now is from nuclear, over 50%. Then we have about 40% of coal, some renewables and only 3% of natural gas. Natural gas is usually used mostly for heating the houses what you said, exactly a J. And their houses are very, very inefficient. There have been some efforts actually to bring in more energy efficiency because the European community actually has sponsored but also some Chinese guys and so on. The private investors also they try in and help them but they really have to do some major overhaul. So when we look, what can we do to get out of that rubble is we have to help them to rebuild and they should rebuild by doing it correctly. You know, they actually, they see already that the government of Ukraine actually has signed the Paris agreement. They also want to cut down on global carbon emissions. So they are in a good way, but they need help. Well, you suggest, I'm just thinking of what you were saying that they need to build modern. They need to take the most current advice on how to deal with energy and efficiency and so forth. Rather, and their buildings up to this point have not been efficient. So it sounds like an opportunity actually. It also sounds from what you say, man Fred, is that there'll be other countries that will want to help them. That is the geopolitical issue, but I think it's true. And in fact, other countries will give them money and loans, other countries will give them expertise. Who knows, man, maybe they'll call upon you to go there. Well, that's actually, you know, that's a good point. And, you know, when I was actually reading, you know, just in preparation, it came to mind that, you know, Ukraine actually resembled the area where I was growing up. And that's in Germany, it's the Ruhr Valley. The Ruhr Valley was very much coal dependent, you know, that a lot of coal mines and all kinds of stuff, you know, and, you know, downstream like the steel factories. So coal was the sole of our region there. And it's the same right now in Ukraine. They have a lot of coal mines, you know, that's actually, which provides a lot of employment. And most of these coal mines actually are really very inefficient. They should be shut down. And that's actually what the Ukraine, you know, government wanted to do. But it's not that easy, of course, because you need coal in order to heat your houses, right? So I actually looked at, you know, what our area, you know, the Ruhr Valley needed 40 years to get out of coal, 40 years. And, you know, it will be similar to Ukraine, but we don't have that kind of time. And how it actually worked in the region I came from, you know, the Ruhr Valley is all of a sudden right now, it's totally, you know, transformed. There's high technology, there's renewable energies. I can tell you afterwards, if you have time for a project actually, which might be a blueprint of what they're doing there. So that actually is, it's not necessarily how to throw a new technology. It's really societal transformation there. And I hope actually, you know, and like you said, although as diet it is, maybe actually something good can come get out of it. And, you know, we can actually help these, you know, the poor people there. So what about those buildings, you know? I mean, the pictures before the bombing started showed us charming streets, charming architecture, charming cities in general, lots of greenery, lots of, you know, socially acceptable public spaces. And how do you recreate that? How do you create the buildings again? You know, there's what, 17th, 18th, 19th century buildings. They have a charm. Do you forget that and build something new? I imagine in the Ruhr Valley as through most of Germany is some very modern architecture. I don't know if you know Martin de Spang, he's one of our hosts. And he's into avant-garde architecture. And I suggest that a lot of Europe is into avant-garde architecture. So what do you do to recreate, if you want to recreate those buildings, to resurrect the old and charming buildings that were in Ukraine? Well, I think right now this is very good point, Jay. And I'm happy that you brought it up. And but right now we actually have to look also at the situation for maybe for the next 10 years. You know, the biggest population concentration was in the East, which right now is overrun. And it actually, it might be that, you know, it stays the Donets area in the East, which actually also has, it's the heart of the coal. They have the biggest, you know, deposits of hard coal there. It's a little bit in the West, in the Middle, it's all like brown coal. You can use it, but it's not that nice. Anyway, so I think there, and you see right now two million people have fled. You know, they actually were in, are they going back? Are they coming more? So it's also in Europe's interest, Europe's interest just to, you know, make the people comfortable so that they can actually stay in their country and build it up again. So how do you do this at the beginning, right? Because you have to provide housing, you know, over there. So can you do it in the same way actually it used to be? Or, you know, because it takes a lot of time and effort, and I don't know if you can actually afford just to build it the same as it was. Or because, you know, in terms of smart cities, the, you know, if you have a concentrated and more high rise architecture, it's more sustainable because it's more energy efficient rather than just making this urban sprawl which we can see here in the United States. That actually is not very sustainable. So they have to use the best planning. They can possibly have. But one drill down question I want to ask you and I've been thinking about it in anticipation of our discussion is, you know, what do you do first? I mean, for example, okay, energy is important. So you have to plan the energy out. Maybe you have to build a solar farms. You have to find a way to distribute the energy. It's a complicated plant. We know that from Hawaii, from everything that we see in energy in Hawaii, you can't do it overnight. Furthermore, you have to, you know, get the electrical grid to reach to wherever there may be housing, high rise of sprawl. We have to have the power there. We have to have the water there. We have to have the sewerage systems there. What did I miss? Telecommunications, broadband, wireless. In order to have a reasonable middle class life, all these things have to be put in. And the question I put to you is what is the sequence? Do you build it all in anticipation of the development or the redevelopment of the buildings? Or do you work at one step at a time? Can you work this one step at a time? Or is it necessary to do large infrastructure projects before you ever start rebuilding buildings? Well, that's a good question, actually. And again, like, you know, it might take a couple of minutes to answer it, right? First of all, you need, of course, infrastructure. You need transportation because you have to, you know, put things around. You know, is that actually, you know, possible there? I mean, the railway system in Ukraine in a sense is better than ours. And, you know, public transportation is also, has a very, you know, big tradition over there. So they actually can teach us more than, you know, we can teach them in, by the, in Ukraine, it's more an urban, you know, population. So not so much. So they're actually used to live in cities. But what I think right now, and that's an excellent point, how do we actually, how do we, you know, approach it? Can we do a piecemeal or just, you know, just actually do we start? And, you know, what do we do have right now in the United States and in the Western or in the, you know, actually worldwide right now are really some good tools. And the good tools, you know, what they are called smart cities, smart buildings, and also what they call digital twins. So a digital twin, for instance, lays out, you know, this is a digital representation of the physical object. And it started about 20 years back when they know digital twins were built mostly for aerospace. So for instance, usually you have to have, when you do a prototype of an airplane or so you have to make models, physical models, all kinds of stuff. And it took about 10 years to make a new, like a fighter or whatever. Right now they have, you know, cut this down to a year because of digital twins. And the digital twin afterwards right now is already branching out into something else. And for instance, into construction, then you can actually, you know, you can greatly increase the speed of construction. You can lower the cost, you can make things more green. And there's a digital twin also right now for entire country, you know, Singapore right now came out and they developed a digital twin for the entire country. The nice thing actually in this one is that, you know, a digital twin, think about like, I don't know if the people will be familiar with the building information system that's actually, it assembles all the different information of a building, right? We know that actually this is, this has been used for, you know, you know, a couple of years, 10 years or whatever it's getting very popular. But a digital twin is a little bit different because the digital twin is actually taking signals. So from sensors, from information which come in and it can play out scenarios. It says actually what is best, what should be do in order, you know, to for instance, you know, increase energy efficiency, increase water efficiency and actually like, what is actually the supply line for that? So what we actually can do, which, you know, is within our realm, that the beginning is just help them just to lay out what they have to do. I mean, some things have to be done. They have to build bridges in order to drive, you know, so as soon as they have to house people with dignity, but in order to build it up afterwards because they also deserve a chance. I think that's actually also, you know, we should not give them only like stinger missiles we can also, you know, hope and give them the tools that they can just, you know, have a good life in the future. So we could do actually this, we can support them in this way. And we can make a model for all of Europe because you start with, I want to call it a brownfield. It isn't really a greenfield, it's a brownfield. Anyway, you know, one thought strikes me though, Manfred, is actually this is being done in, well, it's been done in various places, but including Russia, and that is printing houses, printing houses. You've seen the devices, the equipment, and you know that you can print one family house, you know, in less than 24 hours, all done. Well, maybe 48 hours, whatever. Can you talk about that? Yeah, it's actually right now, communication with a German company and they just printed the first Multan family house. And what it actually, the nice thing actually is that you can have, for instance, have a digital twin of a house. And you can, for instance, like you also have standards in Germany, which is called like passive house. And passive house, you know, uses also passive things like how do you orient it or whatever. And actually, you know, from experience, you have 80 to 90% of reduction in energy because you don't heat and you don't cool. You don't have so, these are possibilities. And then the printing actually is a very good, one great thing because it also lays what they call a digital thread. This is the basic for a digital model. And it comes like, you know, from a digital, from a 3D model of a house. So what you do is you design your house in a 3D. You know, actually, this one is an analytic theme. You know where all the different utility designs on. And so you can actually have this in your model and then you print it. The nice thing with printing, actually, and they have different technologies. But you know, when you see it's almost like putting door and on a curved thing or whatever. So in this thing actually took about, not 24 hours delivered fast, but about one a week actually to build the walls and so on. Nice thing actually in this one is again, like you can have, you don't have to chop up the wall or whatever, it's already in. And also one of the biggest thing is that you actually cut down on waste. They say, you know, they can cut down 90% of the waste which comes down and they can use indigenous or material from the region, which is pretty cool. So yes, it is actually done. And I don't know right now, they might have problem with the high rise also, but it's a multi-family, multi-story house they did. And they passed it through permitting and it's already commissioned and people right now will be moving in. So yes, it is actually something which is very important. And this one is because happy, you know, this kind of really would also help just to do things fast because you don't in Ukraine, for instance, because the basic thing they have to have shelter. They have to have a dignified way of just, you know, when they live mostly in the West or whatever, they have to, you know, get these things. So this is excellent technology, thank you. Yeah, well, and then of course you have bigger buildings. As you said, there are issues about doing printing for a high rise. So maybe you don't, maybe you'd make it, you know, just a few stories and instead of a really high, high rise. And then of course there's institutional buildings, government building, they've all been demolished, you know, and they have to rebuild them. So what would that technology work or would there be other methodologies that you would want to use for larger institutional public buildings? Yeah, actually right now, this is good money. It is not built here in Hawaii. Because we just, from historical perspective, we build houses differently here. But again, like one of the things is also what, I think you already went into that, Jay, it's really a big shift right now in the construction industry. If you look at the last decades of like, you know, industrial output or whatever, you know, the percentage of productivity was way, way, you know, it was increasing. And let's say, you know, there are certain industries like 200% more productivity in let's say two, 20 years, which is pretty big. The construction industry has always been behind. You know, they were always slow in embracing, you know, new technologies. And it was at a conference, it was Boomer International. And once somebody said, hey, Manfred, that's pretty good, all the technology, the last big innovation in real estate was the elevator. So... Sounds right to me. But that being said, you know, there's really incredible talent, you know, coming up. And the young generation, they will embrace new technologies. And it will absolutely, you know, people right now, which I actually had the privilege of teaching at the University of Hawaii at the School of Architecture, they know how to design 3D. If you have a 3D model, for instance, they are also what I really like. It's called Yutong. I don't know, it's a German word, but it's a rated concrete. Rated concrete is like nice for thermal insulation or whatever. And what you do is you almost have an erector set and they're numbered, you know, pieces so they can be put together fairly, you know, fast. And, you know, you use actually, you're gluing things together. So maybe just like two and a half by four feet of blocks. They feed all in each other, they build. This is another technology, which is actually very popular. And another technology, which is also very popular in Germany and Europe is prefabricated houses. Because, you know, you can, for instance, under very good technology, very good conditions, you can prefabricate all kinds of sections. You know, you can tile better. You have electricity, you do it in house, you're not hampered by the elements and so on. And then you just has to be transported to site and erect. So sometimes like these houses come up in a week, you know, which usually would take like half a year or nine months. Was it practical to make it, say, in a factory outside of Ukraine and truck it in? Or should it be done locally with local materials? I mean, I imagine you need a lot of concrete for all these things and query whether Ukraine has that or whether Ukraine needs to import it. Well, of course, right now, it's almost, that might be more effective, you know, that you just, you know, ship concrete or just raw materials over there. I mean, people also have to work there. You know, they also have to work a limit. And you know, if you look at the educational system over there, it's pretty cool and impressive. I mean, similar to Europe, there is actually something which is called, you know, vocational training. So they are very good crafts people and that kind of stuff and they can build their own stuff. We just have to help them to get, you know, get started. You know, I can see this becoming a kind of center of building technology where people, including people from Hawaii would go there and try to contribute, participate, learn, teach, you know, have a kind of big collaboration with the Ukrainians and it'll be from the heart. It'll be altruistic, completely altruistic to help them rebuild the country at record speed in a better way. But let me ask you about roads. Let me ask you about, you know, wireless and telephone infrastructure, you know, wiring along the highways and all this. I mean, a lot of that has been destroyed. Are there modern techniques for doing roads? Are there modern techniques for building telephone poles and the like? Are there new technologies we should consider or they should consider in recreating their country? Well, I'm pretty sure, you know, what was really excellent in the United States that's efficient building. You know, actually here, we are in Las Vegas and, you know, the roads are amazing when they're building roads. I mean, they probably make it 10 times as fast as in Hawaii, you know, although Hawaii has the problem with the space. Well, there is, again, like there is a lot of things which we can offer them and they can do their own. I mean, the thing is like they are not dumb and they are willing, you know, you see right now they're fighting so hard in order to keep it their place, to keep their country. They don't wanna be like, you know, servant of another master or whatever, they would like to be Ukrainians. And but it's, you know, if you look at it, Jade will not be an easy effort and it might take a while. Just take the example of German reunification, you know, right now it costs $2.2 trillion in the last 20 years has been just transferred from the West to the East because they were similar. They were not destroyed in Germany, but it was similar, you know, backwards as in Ukraine. And it takes a lot of time. So it's like when Europe actually right now tries, hey, you know, Ukraine coming into our house or whatever, they also have a big responsibility to help them. You know, and but again, like technology is there, you know, finances is there, our obligation to help, you know, our neighbors there is there and let's move ahead. I'm having an emotional reaction here. This can be done. And hopefully not what it will be done. And it'll be at least a European effort if not a global effort. And it will be the best that we can do when we collaborate both on the work side, on the financing side and on the actual construction side. So it's a very impressive possibility. Does it make you wanna go there? Does it make you wanna tell people they should go there? I'm not sure when, because right now may not be the best time, but, you know, as and when it settles down, seems to me that a student of architecture or engineering, planning, what have you, spaces, you know, private and public spaces would have no other better laboratory to try his or her skills and to learn from others who are there with him or... Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I mean, this is a beautiful country. East Germany is like, you know, East Europe, they have very, very beautiful and usually people are, you know, they are very friendly and open and they are not very, they're not rich. Like I told you that now they have like, you know, a normal monthly salary is about $300. So it's not like what we have, you know? So it's totally different, but they have also beautiful landscapes and so on. And I think that's a very good, very great idea what you have. Like what we can do right now is we have technology, we have experience, we have talent, and we should also have a heart. And that's actually to reach out, not only, again, like, you know, you're giving them weapons, but right now they have to defend themselves, but afterwards they have to come back. And again, like it's always nice if you help your neighbor. Yeah, I hope it works that way, knock wood, you know, because we make this assumption in our discussion here that the Ukrainians will ultimately have their country back. And, you know, it's a whole different issue if the Russians get the country. You know, it goes back to Stalin in 1933 where he intentionally starved the people in Ukraine. And then shortly thereafter, he brought in Russians to resettle it and many of the people in Ukraine are, you know, are descendant of those same Russians. But in the process, of course, he changed everything in Ukraine and Ukraine has been through a lot and therefore they are strong. And this is part of their strength, I think. So the question I put to you, and this is a hard one, my last question, if you don't mind, Manfred. Suppose Putin takes over. Suppose he reduces it to rubble. Well, he's doing that now as we speak. As we speak, he's doing that. So I think they're to send the Polish jets in right now immediately, today, you know, 20 minutes from now, they'll be flying. Anyway, suppose Putin wins and Putin has control, physical control of this huge country. I would pity the people who are there, but query, what does he do? What can he do? What do you think he will do in terms of, you know, addressing the same issues that you and I have been talking about? Well, I think Russia actually by and if you, their GDP is not that bad as Ukraine, but their economy is mostly of just selling stuff they have in terms of like resources like oil, like gas and corn and so on. I mean, the thing is that it's a backward country still. They should really develop it also to come forward. And we also have to see that, you know, they can also be like part of the global population. I think what is really bad right now, what happens also, and there's a lot of people who are having good hard and so on also in Russia, that actually they will feel outcast, you know? So what can you do? I mean, this must be a terrible, terrible feeling. What Putin does in terms of like what is over, is like, you know, they usually also have a very, you know, backward energy efficiency in Russia because gas is abundant, you know, right now in the West, actually we might we know ourselves more from his. So what does he do with his gas, you know? So he probably would go and also the Donets where the Russian separatists actually have been taking over, that's also home of the coal. So I don't think that they will be investing a lot into the country because actually it was running right now in the East, there was the population centers, there was the center of heavy industry and so some technology. So you would be happy to have that. And just to say, hey, you know, what happens to the West of Ukraine? It's not our deal. So it wouldn't be a good outcome. But again, like, you know, Russia is not only Putin, I think, you know, Putin will also only be there for, you know, so long. And, you know, we should also not forget that the best is actually to, there are also a lot of good people in Russia, I think. I don't know anybody, but I hope actually for the world that it's like that. Mark Wood, one variation on that question, on that theme, I think I need to ask you, and that's this. Suppose this is all for some reason, some geopolitical reason, some war crimes reason, and not possible. And that despite our vision, you and me, of how things could be redeveloped in Ukraine, which has been reduced to rubble, nothing happens. It just doesn't happen. Either by the Ukrainians who in that case, in their case would win or the Russians, nobody does anything. What happens? And I know you studied this because you're studying how architecture and engineering supports the human experience, life in a place, in a city, urban setting, and the like. Suppose nobody does anything, there are still 40 million people there. What happens to them? Can they live in rubble? That has not been redeveloped. What happens to the population? Again, like I'm not a politician or so. I'm an engineer, I'm happy to be an engineer. It's always easier because you can count things. It has to be not 19, it has to be 19.256 or whatever. So that's the engineers. But from our experience, there will be a lot of refugees, I think. Because people do not want to live in the east of Ukraine, but the first thing actually, he's taking over, he took over. And again, like 80% of the people in Ukraine, they consider themselves Ukrainians. And 20% they consider themselves Russian because they are only speaking Russian. And by history, the links were very close. But what happens to the other one? They also want to have a life. So we see two million already came to Europe. And there might be up to 10 million, I don't know, just the number, they have to be absorbed. And what happens, for instance, what we saw also for reunification of Germany, a lot of million people came over to the west and because they wanted to have a better life. So this will be a big strain also in Europe. And what happens then? Like if there's no financial help for the people in Europe, in Ukraine, then this will be a very meagre life, I think. But you know, people are a resource. People help an economy. Maybe migrants don't help an economy immediately. The economy has to support them, but ultimately they are an asset, assuming they're properly integrated into the economy and the society. So maybe there's a benefit. On the other hand, what I hear you saying is that if there's no effort, no immediate effort to rebuild Ukraine, people will want to leave. You can't live in rubble. You can't live without these basic, building elements of urban life. You can't live there. And so they will leave. And that will leave a shadow population that severely, maybe more than 10 million would leave. There's nothing there for them at all to live. And that means Ukraine will become something out of 1933. Yeah. What actually was interesting, and I was reading also while we are in preparation here, and they actually, the Ukrainians have done a lot in the last couple of years. And they came with very limited resources. And one of the things I found very interesting was in innovation centers. Innovation centers actually where they are located. And if you look at the map, most of the innovation centers are located in the west of Ukraine. So maybe that's something like, we can think that if it comes to, maybe Russia is not taking over the whole Ukraine if they win, hopefully it stops somehow. And it comes back to, that people are really like to a real life, a real civil discourse. But it might be that actually they say, all right, that's going half of the country, this will be enough, then what happens to the west? Because that's almost like, we shouldn't forget like the Ukraine is very rich in terms of agriculture, just weed and all kinds of stuff. It used to be more in the west, not in the east. So, but again, like, when we are looking at the industry of the future, it's not heavy industry, which is in the Donets, which is in Russian control right now. There's something which different, this high technology, it's like, so there are indication that actually they, there might be also a silver lining that, just at least certain population in the worst case scenario, will actually have some support and they will go making a future. Yeah, and it could be that modern technology, agricultural technology would be useful to redevelop all that agriculture with the black soil of the Ukraine. And they will have a prosperity in agriculture as a possibility. Right, absolutely. Well, thank you, Manfred. Manfred Zapka, a planner and engineer who's been making better places for people to live for a long time here in Hawaii. Thank you so much for coming down and thank you for thinking about this and helping us understand the possibilities. Well, thank you so much, Jay. It's been really, it's always an inspiration when I tune into ThinkTech. You know, you've done a really fantastic job in 20 years right now. It's amazing. So, this is a real service for Hawaii and I really thank you for your service there. Thank you, Manfred. We'll circle back, we'll do some more of this because it's obviously completely dynamic subject. Thank you, Manfred Zapka. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching ThinkTech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.