 Good evening. Good morning. Good afternoon. Wherever you are joining us from and I'm going to read out a small passage today before we get started It is from the book Kvelistan and the chapter is chapter 19 and it goes like this Every morning I wake up to a new India a country where you can open the Times of India on the morning of 17th May 2019 and see a gay couple on the front page Advertising the paper's out-and-proud classified section inside an announcement reads as we approach our 15th year together We want to thank our families and friends straight and gay for being by our side and making us feel like a normal couple Signed dr. Prasad Dandekar oncologist and Shreepad Ranade leadership coach and India in which you can be browsing through Vogue's November 2019 issue at the dentist and see duty chand India's first out lesbian athlete featured on the cover And India in which the constable Lalitha Salway can rejoin the police force in Maharashtra as Lalith Salway After completing his sex reassignment surgery with the support of the state's chief minister And India in which Swati Vidhan Varwa is appointed as the first transgender local judge And India in which Satya Sri Sharmila becomes the first transgender lawyer To register with the bar council of Tamil Nadu and Puducherry and Indian in which M. Monisha becomes the first trans person to be appointed to a state secretary And India in which the state of West Bengal constitutes a trans development board with Manubhi Bandhupadhyay The first transgender principal of a college as the vice chairman With that I just want to say welcome to Hi, and my guest today is none other than Parmesh Sani Parmesh, you know, it's I always think that it's best that the person introduces Himself or herself and of course I could sort of read it out From the cover of your book. He's the founder of award-winning gold rager India culture club in Mumbai which sparks conversations about the changing face of contemporary India You know, you've been part of several places. You hold an MS in comparative media studies from MIT You've been a dead senior fellow a Yale world fellow and a world economic forum for young global leader My god, I'm okay. I'm going to stop reading that because it's giving me a serious inferiority complex And I just want to congratulate you for this fabulous book that you've written Guys, if you haven't read it And you may have read many books, but I just want to let you know This book is going to certainly no matter how much, you know, we'll teach you some so many things Which is going to leave you stunned and surprised and that there is a different planet which you are not aware of So guaranteed Recommend reading check it out Thank you But uh, thank you Yeah, it's just so amazing. How do you introduce yourself? Um, I introduce myself as someone who is A dot connector. I like to connect the dots between things Um, I introduce myself as someone who has lived in the hyphen for many years So theory and practice academia creativity and business um, and in fact You know after reading your book Um, which I absolutely love so much. I introduce myself as a dreamer I think, uh someone like me Who has been trained in the humanities? Who has grown up? You know with the arts and the humanities, but who's trying to make a difference in the business world Um, and trying to talk about things like LGBTQ inclusion So yeah, I would probably introduce myself as a dreamer who wants to make a better world And thank you for liking queeristan. I must say There are so many coincidences both our books came out in september 2020 with the same publisher and um on reading dreamers and unicorns I realized that we both want to create a much better post pandemic tomorrow uh In terms of well, I'm talking about LGBTQ inclusion. You really spoken about how leadership can step up and uh shift culture in general For organizations. So just very very happy to be here. I've been a fan of you since we were on stage So many years ago at the shrm conference where you anchored That wonderful session on LGBTQ inclusion with Lakshmi Um, and me I remember so clearly How warm and you were full of empathy at that moment and this was many years ago when You know before the section 377 judge. Yes. Yes Yeah, it's just quite incredible. Uh, um Yes, so Uh, you know, I I just one sec. I think there's some connection problem that I'm having Just one sec. Sure. Yeah So, all right, hopefully I'm back at least the uh, yeah, okay. All right Yeah, um, so yes, uh, you know, I think we connected back. That was probably 2015 when we connected for the shirm conference and Um, that's when I met you and Lakshmi. So, you know, it was quite incredible for the work that you are doing um You know, I just wanted to sort of get an understanding of This whole concept of change, you know, when you look at the world that you're trying to create your own inclusive world, etc and I think that You know, I want to first start by saying that are there some minorities Who have it tougher? than the other minorities Would you say that? I think certainly I think Um Well, I think in our in our country and in our society in the world at large um You in terms of if you look at gender, I mean women have it tougher than men everywhere in the world for sure But in our country as well, there are Um, if you are queer, it is very very difficult. Um compared to being straight and so even within the queer Lexicon because there's LGBTQIA plus plus It's an ever-expanding you know Way of understanding gender and sexual identities And the lexicon has expanded over the years. I would say that gay men have it easier when compared to lesbian Bisexual or trans for sure and intersex people are there's so much ignorance about what it means to be intersex And intersex people tend to be much ignored. So I think unfortunately there is a hierarchy of even within minorities of you know, which is Um, which are more advantaged and which are less advantaged and if you look at the inclusion space in general uh, for example, which is you know a space that I've Come to work in over the past few years um talking about You know women's inclusion is easier than talking about lgbtq inclusion Talking about inclusion and perhaps people with disabilities Including pwd within the workforce might be easier than talking about things like caste Um region based or religion based inclusion. So I think you know, there are some things and then we're not even Talking about intersectionality here. What if someone happens to be? um lesbian a woman and muslim for example in the workplace, right? So then you have various levels of marginalization and you know this So I think for sure to answer your question. Yeah, there are um, you know privilege comes in all shapes and sizes And certainly there are people who are more privileged than others even within uh minority spaces for sure Um, uh, you know, when you look at this, I mean, that's that's actually a phenomenal way of looking at it and I'm Uh, thinking about you know, uh, yeah, it's true that perhaps Even within the marginalized, there are people who have it better than others and yes, I mean there is uh um, unfortunately that hierarchy even in marginalization I wanted to really look at that, uh, you know, uh whole question Uh, when you think about uh people with disability, I can understand that, you know, when the person comes into the workforce Uh, there's a need to build awareness and you know, there's a need to actually have people Understand that and talk about that Now when it comes to sexuality Why shouldn't the workplace really be concerned about sexuality because it's something that uh, you know We leave behind at home and then we come into the workplace and uh, suddenly, you know, you have Uh, you're this whole notion that lgbtq People are looking at inclusion. Um, and to me You know, I don't understand why should the workplace be uh talking about it So abhijit the thing is We don't leave our sexuality at home and that's the thing we all Are a composite of all the various parts of us that make us And you've written about this in your book as well about how workplaces need to understand this as well, right? So I mean your book is about the emotional workplace. Your book is about And a workplace with empathy Sorry And I've been quite sick. Sorry. I might cough a bit for all those listening It's not coveted And don't worry. I've been like measuring my oximeter literally every hour Oh But yeah, I just want to say thanks today. You know, you're running hundred and two temperature and you still Decided join in uh, you know, I just want to say Yeah, I wanted you to I wanted you to think I was hot but not this way. I mean literally today. I'm like really like You're talking to a hot person Yeah So right, I think workplaces are places which empower us to flourish So we all bring ourselves Straight people bring their heterosexuality to the workplace as well and you work that's really different How because So when you were working at Bipro, for example, wouldn't you have conversations Over lunch with your colleagues where you would say, you know today My wife did this wouldn't you hear them talk about today? Today my child did this now They are bringing the heterosexuality to work in that case, right But why is it that when a queer person? Um says my partner did this or today I went if you're lesbian I went somewhere with my girlfriend or today it's this why is then Why is it that when queer people bring themselves to work? It's considered bringing your sexuality to work, but when straight people do it all the time It's considered normal. So I think because we grew up in a heteronormative world um and because heterosexual people do this almost without thinking That right the world has been designed created certainly our workplaces have been Imagined as heteronormative workplaces Which is why everything from the conversations we have to the policies in so many places to the practices of sending um invitations To I'm sure if you would get an invitation for your partner I mean some years ago or not now people would say mr. And mrs. Abhijeep Agri which I think is problematic on many levels But I think you know the way people people imagine heteronormativity and straight people bring sexuality into the workplace all the time So I think it's not a question of queer people not bringing it's a question of straight people recognizing that we all bring our All ourselves to work. So the question for workplaces should be how can we create? Inclusive workplaces where everyone can bring themselves to work and not just some people because the labor The emotional cost of not bringing yourself to work Right emotional cost of say six to ten percent of the population, which is what lgbtq people are Hiding certain parts of ourselves while about 90 percent of population is not hiding um are quite terrible, right? There's a cost it's it's a productivity cost it's uh I mean talent will gravitate to organizations which are more inclusive in this case So I mean, there's the the the cost of not creating these environments is quite terrible on various parameters. Um, so so yeah I hope that makes sense to everyone who's listening All right, so, you know, we have a bunch of people who are sort of responding and you can see some of those comments, uh, you know and Here, someone says that queeristan is a must Sort of read and everyone's uh, you know thing elitism is part of any group says another user Shanwish says clearly I think I could sit and listen to parmesh speaking for days on end. Thanks for saying what most of us can't um Pratish says that you know, I so agree we try when we bring our full selves to work Uh You know and here is someone who says to sound like Freud sex is a common denominator in human biases So yes, I mean there are lots and lots of uh people who are listening in And you know, I I'm asking you some of these questions parmesh because I would really like to Um leverage your understanding you worked in the space Um as a member who sort of really made this minority invisible minority if you will You make the invisible minority visible Um, is it easier to do if you are part of the minority or is it better that You do it when you are part of the majority who finds it easier and who should be initiating this change Thanks, I think that's a great question. I think For change to actually happen um I mean, I think everyone who can should speak up for change But with lgbtq or other kinds of minorities. I think it's very very important That the straight majority in this case um allies for example um Really really really stand up Speak up for and support queer rights because as I said earlier um The burden on queer people first of all many most queer people are not are not out most queer people are uh Uh, you know Go through very very difficult times to accept themselves in often very very challenging circumstances whether while growing up um in workplaces So on so then very you know To have that burden key we also now have to like fight for our rights and so on I think many queer people do Which is why a lot of the changes that have come place in our country over the past 30 40 years would not have happened without queer people standing up for ourselves But I think it's very very important for our straight allies also to recognize that it is as much Their responsibility as well. So at godridge, I can give you my example Of course, I spoke up many years ago and said we want to create A queer inclusive godridge But if the change happened because there were incredible allies like my boss nisa godridge who happens to be straight But who recognize that a queer inclusive godridge would benefit everyone queer as well as straight So what has been the benefit to godridge because they have been queer inclusive. What's the business benefit to uh, go great So the I mean the case for inclusion is very clear whether it's for godridge of any organization, right? I mean first of all, it's just a It's a decent thing to do. We should all treat everyone equally irrespective of These minor things like who some of us choose to love and who some of us don't But even besides that it's very clear that being inclusive has great monetary advantages The economic case is very clear. It's a five trillion dollar economy Globally, it's a 200 billion dollar economy in India and there's enough data that shows that being inclusive Really really helps make you more money There's enough data from deloitte and so many others that says that making being inclusive creating an environment In which you are inclusive Enables you to be eight times more innovative than other organizations. We're talking about eight x returns There's enough data that says that being inclusive and speaking up about it Um, really helps you connect and this is something that you talk about as well in your book Saying that you know, you really have to connect to that next generation of young people who are going to come on board um And whose loyalty we cannot take for granted So being inclusive really really enables you to connect with your young Employees with your future customers by telling them that you care about the same thing that they connect about So it helps attract much better talent Um, and of course from a reputation perspective. So whichever way you look at it I mean be use the make sense and we found that at woodrit, right because we hire from campus to campus Um, we've been hiring for over 10 years whichever college campus we go to The one thing that students come to us and tell us about is we're so glad that you're standing up and speaking up for LGBTQ rights Queer students as well as straight students queer employees as well as straight employees So I think that's right. So I think um So the onus is on everyone the onus is on allies, which is why I'm glad that you're doing this Right, you could have chosen to have yet another straight person on your podcast But you chose to create this space to call a queer Out and proud person to talk about things that are that matter to me. So Change has only happened over the years because of queer people fighting for our rights, but also allies if you look Um, so many of the judges who've given judgments over the past year So many of the lawyers who have fought for LGBT rights in our country have been straight So many allies in so many places have been Have been straight. So I think change comes about when people work together Yeah, um, you know when you The way you explain it, you know, this is one of the things that uh, I of course You're in needless to say I am asking you some of the questions Which I have also written about in my book that it does make complete sense and being able to understand Um, emotions. I think uh, you know, this is one of the things that Um, I I believe is going to be the next big business opportunity So in dreamers in unicorns I talk about the fact that is one of the big shifts that we will see you know, it's because we Long since now we've we should stop talking about the fact that work is only logic and data and all of that I mean your insights don't come from data alone You need to observe you need to look at the human connections. You need to ask why are they doing what they are doing So, you know, I think there are a million cases. So yes, of course, I mean I in some senses I asked a bunch of my friends who are Is you know who have reservations about why queer people should be Sort of encourage or brought into the workplace and brought at par with any other opportunity When I asked them, what would you say that? You know, so they said that you must speak up for us and ask this question So my first set of questions is really I'm representing them and I hope I was able to get the answer So if you're you know watching me, uh, I hope I asked those questions in the exact tone and manner You asked me to so I was told that somebody should really ask This guy, why should we be talking about this? I mean You know, have you ever seen a straight man talking about your sexuality in the workplace? I mean To all those people if the world was such That 90 of the world was was queer And 10 of the world was straight you would be asking these questions if you was if you were a straight minority Yeah, I think so because One of my beliefs is Um You know, I think one of the pieces I believe is that when you look at the minority, uh, you know, I think The majority actually has to have uh the first step even though you said that yeah, it's both together But I believe that uh, you do need The allies first in in the entire thing I think you need to have the allies in the majority who drive that change. And so that's my Hypothesis, but I would love to know from you that If you were to sort of really take up this whole thing of talking about how do you make a workplace inclusive? What really happens when a workplace becomes inclusive? So I'm going to sort of go to that and I know that in your book you've done five different things that People can do which I thought was absolutely fantastic. And by the way, what I liked about your book permission I didn't get a chance to tell you this um, you know, as I was reading the book I kind of thought that So what is it? I mean, because you know, the language is so casual I am just intrigued as to how People are going to classify this book. Is it because you know, you're almost right with that babaya hindi thrown in You know, uh, and and it's a very bollywood driven and your obsession with bollywood very clearly shows you know, so What went into your mind when you decided to use this genre of writing because you're making things very difficult for the For the publishing company to decide Is this fiction? Is it nonfiction? Is it a biography? Is it? And you know, there's so much of deep research and kudos to you for doing that But what I liked is, you know, I believe one of the ways in which you drive social change Which you really lived up to and which is why I kind of think that this is such a powerful even book that You know, people need to sort of really figure out Read it from the point of view of how do you use? Writing to create opportunities and drive social change. So I think that's one of the things I really liked about your book, by the way So great stuff very very good um To the question that I wanted to go through um You know, when you look at uh, when you look at the five things that you think Companies could be doing. What would those be? You know, just let's have an overview and then we can talk about Some of them because I don't know whether we'll have I'd rather take one or two of the easiest things to do and then sort of Talk about how can uh, people make the change I want to do two things in the workplace and in their homes. So let's just do both together. I think it'll be great um, so Let's get going Thanks, but just before that, um Thank you and the book The book was written with great intent in that manner Because the book is not just about queerness. It's also to clear the idea and it's I use queer as a verb as a performative verb because when you Queer something you kind of Uh show people different ways of being right queerness is about multiple possibilities queerness is about Giving a different way of viewing the world. So I wrote the book with great deliberate intent about mixing the very very personal Personal memoir kind of narratives With data and research and it's not that different from dreamers and unicorns because I remember There are passages in your book, right where you walk you are at ximd You're walking through the campus You are seeing a new building which has replaced an old building and it kind of makes you think about How changes changes inevitable, but when it happens, there's always wistfulness So, I mean, I think we both try to do similar stuff Then I've gone slightly overboard is in the bollywood and in the language and in the song and dance So I think it's very important to write a book and I think in today's world Um, when we are writing, they're not just competing with other books and authors. They're competing with instagram They're competing with netflix. So I think a writing has to be interesting. We have to hook people and we have to use stories we have to Um, in a sense really judge it up a bit so that our readers remain engrossed Um, so that's why I wrote the book in a particular way. I wanted to create a very very fun business book Because business people are not boring business people Um, as you said, I mean business people have homes business people do work business people also want to be Told stuff, but I think in an entertaining manner. So that's why, um, I wrote the book in that particular way I'm so glad you liked it and it's resonant So, um, there are multiple things that people can do to create inclusive spaces If there's one overarching formula, I would tell everyone who's listening is walk the talk Because in today's world, you cannot be inauthentic So I give a whole comprehensive approach, which is everything from changing your policies Um, and arrange your policies that you can change specifically for lgbtq inclusion Sorry to create to creating Can you hear? Hello Is there a lag? Yeah, no, I mean, I think I lost you in between Yeah, there is a bit of a lag and and I think I lost you in between But yes, what you what I hear you say is that, you know Because it's a business book It doesn't have to be boring and because it is very well researched like your book clearly is got tons of judgments references Um, you know, it almost I expect it to become quite like a reference book You know when somebody's talking about social change, uh, this just becomes a really powerful reference book for me That's what it was But I also found it eminently readable and it's fun. I laughed in so many places and so it was fun to sort of look at that um, you know when you uh, when you think about When you think about driving change What is the first place to begin? Should it be home or shouldn't be in the workplace? and why? So I think um For us who work in organizations. I think if you can start I mean of course you should begin change at home But I think the way our homes Are framed Our homes the way we have grown up in our homes We don't have these conversations in our homes Like when I grew up my parents never asked me what makes you happy What is love? What is your favorite color? They just told me study and get good maths And I think uh, unfortunately a lot of us grow up in homes like this So I think while homes are places where these things must begin I think in our context the workplace becomes more important because by the time that employee reaches the workplace The workplace can become that safe hardware the workplace can become that space where the organization can tell their employee Yes, you spent your whole life running giving exams trying to get in But now you are here So let us create the conditions for you to flourish and in my experience when you create these conditions in the workplace People take it back home with them People are more receptive to saying okay if Wipro or Goodridge or whoever is offering same-sex partnership benefits is offering insurance Is the leadership is talking up about lgbtq rights? It is hiring more and more queer people These conversations are easier to have back home when you can say guess what mom dad? You know what my company is doing or guess what cha cha g or guess what this or guess what right? So I think workplaces become particularly important in in our In our context. We are not like america or other parts of the world with regard to lgbtq identity I'm talking about because in other parts of the world you grow up you discover your sexual orientation You know you come out at home Or in college and then by the time you enter the workplace. You're kind of sorted I think in india people enter the workplace very confused and closeted because they've not had that Time space or attention to talk about these things. So I think in our context. It's vital that we create inclusive workplaces For our queer employees to you know to accept themselves for them to Flourish And so that they can you know, they can become better at themselves But they can also help your help the workplace to flourish. Yeah, and then they take it back home Yeah, and and what is the first? You know, what is the first conversation? A leader can have in the workplace. Let's imagine that this is Day one where you know people are deciding to do something about inclusion And they are deciding to sort of make it queer inclusive place In which case, you know, what is the first thing they should be looking at? Is it policies or is it having a conversation? so I think um, it's a combination of having best in class policies accompanied by Really really really strong leadership signaling from the top Because indian companies are very hierarchical If the md ceo Senior leaders indicate that this is something that we are committed to people tend to follow So I think it's a combination of strong policies very very committed leadership signaling And you know actually walking the talk, which means not just having policies, but then leaving that not hiring queer people Or supporting queer causes or standing up for queer rights, right? So I think there's not just one thing that's why I think if you are committing to this You have to commit that it's going to be a comprehensive approach We have to so the first thing that anyone can do is actually set aside a budget for it So I think it is that you can do realize that inclusion is a journey that you will go on it will take money Just as you set aside a budget for marketing just as you set aside a budget for finance I mean the second thing that you can do is recognize that it's not something that belongs only to HR most companies Put inclusion inside HR for convenience But if you really want to think about inclusion comprehensively, it should be it should come directly from the managing director and ceo Because the benefits of inclusion are in HR and marketing and product and sales and everything, right? Sure Say that we are committed to it comprehensively So of course we will change our policies, but what is the use of good policies if our employees don't know about it? So we have to invest in sensitization and communication What is the use of policies and communication if we are not hiring the queer people? So we have to actively hire queer people What is the use of all of this if we are not indicating to the world that this is something that matters to us? So we have to support sponsor queer events queer cultural things, etc Companies that have succeeded have done a have done a comprehensive approach over the years True true Sorry Abhijit, I think the one thing that companies should not do is only wake up during pride month Put some rainbow logo on your put some rainbow filter on your logo pretend to be inclusive and then disappear We don't want that I think, you know, there's just like, you know, when it comes to sustainability There are a number of companies which, you know, greenwash Is that a term which is used and I suspect that is queer washing too because You know, it just gets you Bonus mileage to say that you are very sort of concerned about The people etc So yes, I think social change actually demands a lot of action I have a more practical question, which is that You know, when you think about When you think about going to hire queer people, let's say at the campus How do you do that? Because at the campus, like you just said a little while back that a lot of people They haven't had that conversation With, you know, the families back home and if they are sort of getting hired Um, you know, would they feel comfortable if you sort of do you spell it out and say we actively are looking for that? Is that something that you say? What is the right way to go about? Solving for that particular problem So there are multiple ways, you know, when I graduated from MIT and I was being recruited first in America It was really good that companies were so MIT has an ngbtq association And all the top companies been bcg whatever would come to us They would reach out to the lgbtq association and they would do special like Mixers or cocktails for us and they would say we're reaching out to you because we want you to come and work with us We want to assure you that We have a queer inclusive, um atmosphere So over the past Five years what's been amazing is in many of at least the top b schools in our country There are lgbtq associations Um, so I think it's very very if you're a company that's interested reach out to these lgbtq associations and come and Commit, uh, to them that this is something that you want to go on But I think a more practical way abhijit would be to just Indicate in all your posts in all your communication either with the small asterisks or when you are going to campus You know the way godrej does it is I go and recruit often And as part of the thing I just know I just casually say I happen to be gay myself and I really enjoy working at godrej So Whoever, you know, it doesn't matter if you're queer or straight We commit that we will treat everyone equally. So I think If you indicate in your communication in your recruitment that you are an organization which is going on an inclusion journey uh Whether someone is out not out uh They will at least have that confidence that as an organization you are committed to this So then they are more likely to apply to you Uh and to come on the journey. So I don't think we should as organizations Force people to come out. I think coming out, you know, whether you're a student or an employee is everyone who has their own Journey or when they feel comfortable when they feel safe but we can signal to our employees Present or potential that if you know We are trying very hard to be the kind of place that if you know, you have if you are queer Or whenever you want to come out It will be a safe hardware for you And that's what a good organization can you can signal explicitly Or you can signal implicitly, but I think that signaling is important Yeah, um, you you have Sharma shows asked a fabulous question. I'm going to put it up once again Her question is that, you know, you must have Come across bigots in your journey as well. And how did you handle difficult conversations? Especially If there is a hierarchy involved, you know How do you manage that? Because that I'm sure was never easy. So how do you do that? So it's been very very hard. You're right. I've come across so many bigots um, and At least with me My approach has changed over the years When I was I'm 45 now when I was younger. I would be very agitated. I would get very angry um, I would um Either lash out or I would try and you know But whatever I'm just saying over the years. I've kind of maybe it's I'm becoming older Um Now what I do is I actually, uh Try and Uh operate from the point that maybe this person is not a bigot Maybe this person is just uninformed so I just I approach that person with a lot of kindness And I approach and it's not easy when someone is making bigger things. I say look, uh, you've just said this I hope you understand that you know The reality is blah blah blah I'm assuming that you're coming from a position of being uninformed. Let me share with you what the actual context is And this is something that I've learned over the years. It's a process of calling in so rather than calling out and I heard this at one of the webinars I've done right when you call out something which is very important Like use when you call out for example, if you made some if you make a if you say something which might be problematic I can say abhijit. That was terrible Blah blah blah or I can say abhijit. Maybe you didn't know that this was terrible. Let me tell you what the right thing is Would you like to be? so over the years that Even though it's harder. It takes a lot more out of me. I've practiced more and more. How can you call in because the truth is We need More and more people who understand and who become allies So that we can all together create a better one. So I just try and do it more productively. Although it's it's not easy. I can do Yeah, because you know in some sense it is the difference between a push model versus a pull model You know when you so invite people in and say that maybe you know, you are not aware but when you use a term like this It's very hurtful to me and as you say that that sort of just makes it easier for the person to A respond back with empathy and I think that's really powerful And I also think that you know when you look at Hadid also mentioned that you know when you The way that you signal something Can either create an ally who sort of just says oh my god I mean, you know that would have been this or It would have been, you know, it just hardens the stance and you say that Uh, you know, it just sort of makes more enemies out of the entire thing and doesn't help the social change So yes, I mean as as I'd say is that you know calling in versus calling out very well said so You know when you look at When you look at this whole journey that you've done you you are still I don't think it is done because it's still work in progress I see it like that What is the is there a end goal that uh, you know We are looking towards and you know Is that something where do you see this going eventually and what does that accomplish? you know, what is the Final closing scene of the movie if I were to use your bollywood metaphor No, you you're just so fond of bollywood. So am I so which is why I guess it sort of instantly related to this style of writing But what would you say? So personally I would very much I would like All the top 500 companies in India To have lgbtq inclusive policies and practices This is my personal goal. I'm working with as many as I can right now in any capacity To help push for change because I really believe that there are multiple levers to create social change And businesses the corporate world are very much is very is a very very powerful So I think I would really like to create Help empower more and more companies You know create conducive workplaces so that more queer people are hired more queer people flourish More queer people are empowered and we create a better society But this is just my personal thing for the business world. I think for our country at large It's very clear that there are going there are many more legal changes that are needed For example, we need an anti-discrimination bill. We don't have any anti-discrimination laws in our country The trans act that came out recently really needs to be modified to To really reflect the aspirations and needs of our trans community And I think while section 377 went away, which decriminalized us We are long away from equality So I think whether it's managed equality or other kinds We certainly need that right because I'm a tax-paying honest patriotic citizen of my country I find it extremely unfair why I should have lesser rights than other people Simply because of a minor detail Of who I choose to love. I think it's really really unfair So what I would like to see is also legal change that puts me and my LGBT community on par with everyone So I would like to see a society in which we all have the same legal rights Which are our rights that our constitution anyway gives us I would like to see our society to reflect that in the law I think workplaces can be an important Lever in that which is why I do the work I do But also others I would like to see Families not pressurizing their queer kids to either act differently Or to marry people of that who their parents say even though so many families know very well that the children are queer They force them into marriages which leads to terrible consequences So I would like to see a better society in which queer people are Are honored are Are validated are Accepted so the big I mean that happy ending is when we have an indian which All of our six to ten percent LGBTQ people Are safe and accepted at homes in schools and colleges and workplaces And it's not impossible because if you see other parts of the world In 40 or 50 years in one generation countries have made this change So it's not And I also think that you know the way you described it actually the You know the equivalent of the workplace, you know where you talked about creating a policy But also driving the communication and having role models I sort of see the parallel happening also at a country level that you need the law You also need to have uh, you know the role models and also in many ways to You know create forums for dialogue because effectively the first step in my view Of any social changes really to create dialogue and then build it from there Whatever is the change that and And especially when it comes to I think of The many fights that societies go through in every, uh, you know generation if you go through um, you know, there is always a scenario in which You are a minority and there is always a scenario in which you are a majority Yeah, all of us are in some senses whether it's you know, so there's an equal amount of thing. Let's say pertaining to People who speak in a certain way. Yeah, and we are we are a strange country where When if you speak English poorly, you know, people feel embarrassed But when you speak Hindi or your, you know, mother tongue poorly or you say, I don't know how to read or write that We say it with great pride So I think there are many places where You know, the majority minority combination actually is a great perspective to have through Um, uh, Nehra Prabhu actually has another interesting suggestion that it should be built into all the, uh, you know management development programs leadership development perspective because How do you become more inclusive in your language and your policies and in all the Changes that you are doing Because today one of the big differences as I see in the role of the leader Is that leaders are actually working as part of an ecosystem? So so that I think is the big deal. Would you would you say so that is it part of a Change to drive change the ecosystem not just you know, the the pond where you are swimming I think completely and I think if other b-schools All add programs on diversity and inclusion it's going to make a big difference Um, so I think that's a great. I think uh, and if I hope people from different b-schools are listening If you can just add a module on dni Why it's important the dni ecosystem in our country the benefits of it and how you can be a change agent Um, I think it's going to make a big big big difference. I think in in I think sorry it would be uh Really remiss if management students today Are not learning about sustainability are not learning about inclusion. I'm not learning about empathy Uh, because to me like having more empathy communicating better understanding the power of inclusion Recognizing as you said that we're all connected in this ecosystem Planet people everything. Yeah, so if our if our educational institutions Can you know from the big big train people about this? It's going to be huge. So I think it's a great opportunity for business schools Uh, like so many in other parts of the world are already doing Um, I think it's a great opportunity for Indian business schools to make sure that this is absolutely It's a compulsory module that everyone needs to actually, uh, you know take and and I also think that you know one of the most powerful ways in which uh Any kind of awareness building happens, you know, so Wherever there is inequality and and in law there are many scenarios. I mean, you know the whether it is, uh, you know by gender You're a male female as you said the whole hierarchy that you talk about hierarchy is one of Hierarchy by definition happens when there is inequality, you know boss about that tenant landlord, you know, there are many such examples And in every place where we ourselves are a minority, I think we would like To sort of be included. We would like to sort of be heard We don't want our voices to be shut out And yet with the moment we get into the majority Sometimes unknowingly and I'm not saying that you know, everyone's doing it because of that. It's also that Just building that sensitivity. I think is a very important way in which You build a world where It is okay to have a conversation about something which you have a bias against, you know, and it could be anything It could be bias against let us say um, a certain kind of a educational qualification Even now I know that there are plenty of organizations where They use terms like this is a tier one college. This is a tier two college and you know, it's I think it's ridiculous because There are enough examples and more of You know, the world having leaders who've come from zero tier colleges, you know, they haven't even gone to colleges and you know, whether it is Leaders of countries or whether it is You know leaders of organizations So there is no reason for us to hold on to these Fairly archaic notions, you know, where did you go to college and that sort of In your case, of course, you take all the boxes because you sort of you've got a Ted fellowship and this and that Does that make things easier for you or does it make it more difficult? um, I think in my case, um I've been incredibly privileged So I recognize that my going to a bunch of places um, is not necessarily an indication of some smartness or whatever but just, um, structural Inequality is that made me grab opportunities in a way that perhaps others could not So I recognize that very very well Have I been able to use these networks? to push for change, certainly um If I hadn't gone to a place like MIT I doubt that companies like mahadra or gold rich would have considered hiring me even though I might have been very very smart or presented myself unfortunately, um These are the filters that many companies look for But I've become extremely conscious of of this privilege and over the years. I've tried like you just said to actually Use my platforms to talk about the fact that you know, this is not fair and you really need to be creating a better uh way of doing things but Have these spaces helped me undoubted? uh Have I used the platforms myself to and in queristan I talk about This phrase called jugal resistance Which talks about infiltrating the system Almost like a sleeper cell and like try and create change from within So have I used The network to infiltrate and try and create a better world certainly And that is my plea to everyone out there. Um, don't think that to be a change maker You only need to be Fighting in the courts or to be an activist Uh, you know protesting for very very important issues um Or to be in the government where you control policies You can be a change maker being in the corporate world sitting where you are Recognizing that the world is full of structural inequality and that you can have a role however small it might be To help create a better world So use your power use your privilege use your position if you feel you have privilege You must also use it to create a better world for those who don't Uh, I mean, that's what I constantly try and do and I hope that people who are listening do the same because that's all the only way We're going to get to a more equal world uh In some sense, uh, you know, even the uh conversation like this It's just a small attempt at uh, sort of bringing some of these conversations to a larger audience Uh, because that's the only way, you know, because for me, you know One of the things that you said was so powerful which is We assume good intent and if you do that you automatically start to say that okay, maybe you didn't Think about it like that and sometimes to ask the question You know which which is bothering you you should ask the question um So I got a uh text message which Wanted me to ask Why do you write he slash him next to your name? What is that? So great. Yeah, so I think uh in today's world more and more people are sharing their pronouns So for me Sorry, he him are my pronouns and a lot of people choose to share their gender identity with um others So someone might choose to say she or her many people who are non-binary which means uh That they don't want to They don't want to place themselves in in either end of the spectrum might use they them Um, the hindi equivalent would be up Like they them is So I use this to indicate my pronouns and all over the world many people are using this To share with others how they want to be addressed So that if someone wants to address us they address us by um the gender that we prefer Um, so that's why I use he him And it's not just queer people everyone straight people are also using this Um, just indicate to the world that this is these are my pronouns. This is the gender that I want to That I would like to be addressed as So it's just something which is becoming more and more prevalent all over the world Um, and this is just an indication of that. But thank you for asking And and also I think it is a little bit like, um, uh, you know What I saw linkedin doing I was linkedin now allows you to, uh, you know, do a small recording of the way you like your name to be Uh pronounced, you know, so uh, some people who have the identical spelling as me Uh might say, uh, obijit, you know, like the Bengali Translation in my mother tongue would be obijit, but I prefer to be called avijit, you know, and uh Because if you don't say that somebody might be mispronouncing it as Abijit, you know, which used to happen in some places where I've lived and worked. So, uh, Did you also go through that? You know, yeah I mean, at least in America or whatever that parmesh is hard It's more par parmesh or like I think it's the mesh that people get So people sort of make a short film called mesh. Yeah The mesh is harder for people Um, so I think I mean that's the thing right if we just And it's the most basic form of respect. I mean if you just share with people, this is how I like to be called Um, not rocket science. I'm and you know, I think even for those listening. I think it's very important that we understand that Abijit, then we are talking about this because in a sense Also being inclusive is very much part of our Indian culture And I write this all the time. I think it's important So many people also tell me That you're talking about this for example pronouns lgbtq. These are all like western concepts And I have to remind them that actually no These are deeply local and Indian concepts. In fact, inclusion is an Indian concept that then went to the world And we are now in a sense talking about it now Because we had so many years of british rule And the colonial project was also very much at making us feel uh Conscious of criminalizing some of the most beautiful things that we had So Yeah, so lgbtq Individuals and acts were criminalized by the british the same way as they created a criminal tribes act Because the british just criminalized anything that they did not know or understand Whereas we for years have been inclusive. So inclusion is a very Fundamentally indian or subcontinental contract and we have been having it for years in our part of the world We include and respect everyone. We call people what they want to be called So these are our deeply fundamentally indian concepts that we now need to be You know And if you look at the You know diversity of india in terms of whether everything from you know, the sari is worn in so many different ways There are some 70 ways in which people make tea, you know chai, which is so Um, uh, you know integral to our life or you're any dish that you think of a biryani I mean think of the number of variations of biryani that you have I mean there are some names which are given but there are many many variations So we are a very diverse country and I think that's the power that we should be celebrating Also in the language, I mean hindi you would say Aap or tum depending on what the person is comfortable with saying You know tumi or apni as all of that. So, um You know permission I just want to end we are coming up to the hour and I just want to say that In 2015, you know when I first met you and we spoke about Inclusion in the sham, you know conference I was actually struck by two things one. I think I was struck by the By the courage of sham to bring lakshmi and you to the stage and sort of Have that conversation. I don't remember any other conference where It has been brought out in that degree of comfort and it was sort of I I felt very privileged that you know, I got a chance to sort of be there on stage and sort of talk about it But I also thought that it gave me an opportunity to get to know you and You know It's brilliant that both the books have happened at the same time. So I think there is a little bit of that connection there I want to thank you on behalf of uh, you know the the whole Listeners group and you know everyone and I also want to sort of say that You know, I think when you think about The little things that you mentioned it was very very enlightening for me And I hope I've been able to sort of also represent the questions that have come to me from all of you Thank you very much everyone who's shared the questions everyone was written in and your encouragement and the comments measures request you to share the You know this particular Recording with your friends and hopefully it should Provide that conversation. There's some portions of this. Uh, you know because of the spotty internet connection It's something that I grapple with every time there have been times when I've done this You know in one of the places where I was speaking power went off And so, you know one of the So I was speaking like it was like some very fancy lighting It was just a laptop light which was seeing it through But at the end of the day, I also want to say that All of us make a far more inclusive society And this is the book that I just think it's required reading. Oh gosh. Thank you. No, you don't have to do that But thank you so very much. I just love the book. So do read it. And I think I'm going to Really look forward to continuing this conversation online as well You know with everybody who's there. Thanks a million for being there permission Good luck with your journey and