 Good afternoon, and thank you for joining another episode of Kondo Insider. We have a real special guest today. We have Camille Fong, and she's with C4 Management. And we have a really interesting topic. I'm sure I hope there are board members and unit owners out there listening because we're going to talk about how owners can communicate with their boards. And Camille, you're representing C4 Management. Yes, I am. Can you tell us about C4 Management? Okay, well I apologize, I'm fighting a cold right now. But C4 Management started out as a family business. My mother's the owner and she has four children and all four of us, our names start with the letter C, that's how C4 Management came to be. We're locally owned and operated and we primarily, well we service Oahu. We have not extended out to the outer islands yet, although we have had some requests to do so. We service a variety of types of associations. We do high-rise, yeah, site management. I'm sorry, we do site management, not property management. And so we do facility management for a lot of town home associations that have pool facilities. We do high-rises, we do mixed use, we do single family, plant communities, developer being turned over to new boards. Those type of associations as well. We do temp work. We have some property managers that call us regularly when their managers have gone maternity leave or vacation or TDI will come in and keep your operations moving along while they're gone until they return. Okay, so it's like a temporary site manager. Yeah, right, we can do that as well. And tell me about your experience. How long have you been in doing site management work? Seems like forever, but I've personally been doing it. I was trying to calculate after we spoke. I think it's been about 14 years. And I specialize mostly in facilities management. We have different people within our company that have certain specialties. My brother primarily does the large high-rise buildings with all of those types of components. I'm a certified pool and spawn specter as well as CPO certified. So I tend to lean towards the pool facilities to make sure everything's in order there. Can you tell me what does the difference, and explain to our audience, what's the difference between a site manager, a resident manager, and a property manager? Okay, well a site manager and a resident manager are pretty similar. I would say the primary difference is we don't live on property. Typically a site manager is a much lower cost for the association because they don't have to pay for the unit and their cable and electricity and all the bills that come with having the unit as a perk. But the difference between a property manager and a site manager is pretty huge. A lot of people think, why do I need a site manager? I have a property manager. The property manager primarily handles legal, fiscal, insurance claims. Making sure all your bills are paid on time. And they're not on site. They're not on property. They're not typically on property. A really good property manager might come out once a month. But for the most part, they come out maybe quarterly. I know some of my better managers, they'll come out on occasional landscape walks or for big paint walks, things like that. But for the most part, they're downtown pushing the paper, making sure your association's legit. That it's legal, that your reserves are funded, things like that. The site manager is the boots on the ground, day to day operations. And the reason why I'm asking you these questions is because we're talking about owners who have a concern. They live on property and something doesn't work or there's an emergency situation or they just want information. And so there's all these people taking care of the building. Who do they call? And in what order? Yeah, usually me. I would say in general. I mean, every association's a little different how it's laid out and the amount of staff that's there. Some large condos have a maintenance manager, a security manager, operations manager, all different levels. But for the most part, a homeowner's first call should be to the site manager before they bother showing up to a board meeting or calling the property manager. Because 90% of the time, we're going to be able to handle their problem. It's typically I need a pool key or what day is Refuse Day or how do I submit a design application. Usually it's a lot of questions or complaints about neighbors or dogs barking, things like that. So most of that stuff we would handle. If we take that call and we feel like it's about accounting or their personal account, then we would refer them up to the property management company and say, you need to speak with accounting to handle that. But most of the calls we can either handle or route or defer them out to someone else. And is there some type of chain of command when somebody makes an inquiry? I mean, what is the chain of command? Well, there's supposed to be. A lot of times, homeowners and board members both don't necessarily know of the chain of command. But the kind of inside chain of command is that the board of directors is obviously the head honcho. They're the ones that hire all the contractors are the ones that make the decisions. And then the property manager would be under them. So they have the direct contact with the board. They're the ones that create the agenda with the board president, things like that. The site manager is kind of the liaison between the homeowner and the property manager. So we kind of field all those and filter all those calls, handle all the complaints we can. If there's something we can't handle or we feel, you know, might go legal or something that is a bigger authority than we are, then we'll bring the property manager into the mix or the board president. But for the most part, homeowners should come to the site manager. Yeah, or the resident manager. The site manager goes to the property manager and to the board as appropriate. You should not have homeowners bothering board members when they're out walking their dog or, you know, those board members are volunteers. They deserve to have that lovely life there in the community to go to the pool, to walk their dog, to live there without being harassed by homeowners with complaints or concerns all the time. And same way, you know, the board members should not be approaching homeowners and tell them, hey, you're not supposed to do that or going up to vendors and telling them how to do their job. You know, if a board member has an issue, they should come to the property manager say, hey, you know, I noticed the landscaper is doing this, the property manager either goes to the landscaper or comes to me and then I go down and talk to the vendor. So there's a definite chain of command that we try to keep, but people always kind of step out and it's sometimes we have to realign them to try to keep the peace and have everybody in there, you know, to keep it efficient really. Okay, and do condos or buildings that you work for, do they, is there a process that is set up to handle complaints or inquiries by an owner or resident? It varies, it really does depending on the building. A lot of people have those condo apps now and those are amazing. Those are really helpful for the site manager. What's the condo app? I know, I think, I can't say names on here, but yeah, they have these condo apps that they, you download on, your association purchases the rights to the app for like 100 bucks a month or something and everyone can download it onto their smartphone and so you can just click a thing and this is maintenance request, take a picture of something, you can ask questions and it immediately goes to the cell phone of the manager, whoever the administrator is. We can post notices through it and it alerts everybody if they want alerts. It's a really fascinating feature to have. Some have websites. I know one of my properties has a website where people can go on and put in a maintenance request and it automatically comes to me and those are really great because it logs all of the requests. Right, and it's in writing. And it's timed and dated. Right, right. I think each manager individually has their own style. I know in our offices, on our properties, we have pass down logs that we log everything that happens in the office so that the manager can come in and see what's going on, but it's more of an internal log. It's not so much a incident log or anything like that. Some places that have a lot of work orders and maintenance generated, they should have their own separate work order logging system to process all those work requests to make sure that as they come in, they're logged and then they're tracked along the way and then signed off as completed so nothing gets forgotten. But not every property needs that. So I wouldn't say that every association needs to have a log of everything. I think your manager should know how much or how little they need to be tracking. And I think the reports speak for themselves when your manager provides a report of all the details and that they have the answers. It's because they have the notes for it. Right, and is it important that, I mean, you're talking about a log, but is it important that you keep a record of these concerns and complaints when they are made, when they come in? I think it depends. I mean, in incidents, definitely. Most places have incident logs. We keep parking logs for any kind of parking passes. We've actually had to pull those for lawsuits before. Work order logs, I mean, complaints, we write them down. I would say that I ask my homeowners to send complaints in writing to me just because I like to print it and keep it in their unit file just so that we know that we have that should we go to court, that I have my due diligence, that there was a written complaint that I wasn't just out harassing this owner about something. But if it's just calling about a sprinkler or something like that, I personally wouldn't necessarily log every little thing down. It takes a lot of time. So what kind of repairs typically do the owners call in and want the association to address? Oh, everything, you'd be surprised. I think, especially with tenants, I think they think the association manager, they mix us up with their rental manager. And so they're like, oh, my toilet's not working or oh, my dishwasher's not working. And so I'm like, you need to call your rental agent the person you signed your lease with and they need to get someone. A lot of times with plumbing, a lot of people, homeowners assume that because a pipe is in the wall, that it's common element and that's not necessarily the case. And in most cases, it's the homeowners. The general rule is if it serves more than one unit, then it's common. If it just serves yours, then it's yours. And usually those unit valves are outside and they split off. So once it splits off, that's yours. And so how does the owner know whether it's their pipe or a common pipe? Well, the governing documents will specifically say, exactly whose is what. But when the leak's happening or when the clog is happening, we don't necessarily know exactly where it is. So the general rule is if it's outside and we can see the leak, then the association handles it. If it's inside the unit, it doesn't appear to be affecting anyone else around them. We assume it's isolated to that unit and we ask them to call their own vendor, their own plumber or whatever it is, have them come out. And should the plumber find that they believe it's common for whatever reason, like the snake went 100 feet, then we just ask them to have the plumber put that in their report and then they can just turn that report in with their invoice to the association. And in all cases, I've seen the association reimburse that homeowner for the cost. And usually each building knows how far it is from- For the most part. To the common pipe. And I think it's kind of standard with plumbers when they go into a condominium and it's a blockage and they'll tell the unit owner or the resident, well, you know, I had to go 25 feet, I think it's a common pipe and they will usually put it on the invoice. And so if they don't do that, the owner or the resident should ask the plumber to do that because he may not know if it's a common pipe but the building knows. And I'm glad you brought that up. I've actually told tenants or homeowners, you can use any plumber that you'd like. I might suggest that you use the association's plumber because the association plumber is familiar with where the shutoffs are, where the common lines meet. Is your condo back to back with another unit? Is it separate? They're familiar with the layout of the building itself. And a lot of times our plumbers can come in and they can tell immediately whether it's common or not. And they are a third party. They get paid from either way. So they're pretty fair about it. And they know to report it as such. Okay, so if they use the association plumber, that plumber, because he's more familiar, will likely be able to let them know, even though they end up paying them, they know that they're gonna get re... Usually my association plumbers will just build association. They'll say, oh, this is common. They'll call me, they'll explain it. I'll say, okay, and then they just bill us. And then the homeowner doesn't do anything. So I think it helps everyone to use this association plumber if they're not sure. But we don't recommend plumbers to anybody. So it's up to them who they wanna use. Yeah, I know that it's common policy for the association not to make recommendations. But I think that's a good idea that you do make that reference to the association plumber to save the homeowner the expense of doing that. Well, why don't we take a break now? And then when we come back, we'll continue. Okay, thank you. Hello, I'm Crystal from Quok Talk. I've got a new show here. You've gotta tune in, check out my topics on sensitive, provocative, female issues. So Tuesday mornings, 10 o'clock, don't miss it, it's gonna be fun and dangerous. Aloha, my name is John Wahee. And I actually had a small part to do with what's happening today. Served actually in public office. But if you don't already know that, here's a chance to learn more about what's happening in our state by joining me for a talk story with John Wahee every other Monday. Thank you. And I look forward to your seeing us in the future. You're watching Think Tech Hawaii, meeting people we may not have otherwise met, learning things we may not have otherwise learned, helping us understand and appreciate the important things about Hawaii. Great content for Hawaii from Think Tech. Okay, welcome back. I'm Jane Sugimura and I'm here today with Camille Fong of C4 Management. And we're talking about owners communicating with their board or their association. And so we've been talking about basically the chain of command and exactly who you talk to about what and what is the pecking order. And then we're talking about the repairs. Usually, typically how long does it take, should it take for the owner to get a response from you or from somebody representing the association when they make a call? I would say same day. Most of the times we pick up the phone or if you leave a message. We do seminars, we take classes and we're in vendor walks. So it could be that we're not available at the time. But usually we try to get back to the person by the end of the day. If not, the next business day. I think that's reasonable. I don't think it should take longer than that. I know when you're calling the property management companies, they have a huge workload. And again, I would recommend that people call the site management first just because they're probably gonna defer you back to us after you've waited to get a call back. As far as how long should you wait from a board, most boards should operate from meeting to meeting and not in between. And so if you bring something to the board via myself or the property manager, like an appeal or a concern that needs to go to the board, it does need to wait to get onto the agenda for the next board meeting. And depending on the timing of that, you may have missed that window to get onto the board packet. So if an owner wants an item put placed on the agenda, they can talk to you. Right, they can talk to me or the property manager and just say, I'd like to bring this to the board's attention. I'd like to put it on the agenda. Typically the board packets from the property management company go out the week prior to the board meeting. So they like to have anything like 10 days prior to make sure they have time to print and organize the agenda with the president. I usually see a copy of the proposed agenda in case there's something that I think needs to get added. So if I know of something that I don't see on there that sometimes I'll throw that on. And is there any way that an owner would, and the notice of the meetings are posted? Yes, but they're usually posted maybe like three, four days before. So you may have missed that window to get on the agenda. So if you have an issue, just call the site manager and say, hey, you know, I have this issue. I want to come to a board meeting or I want to get on the agenda. What's the timeline like? And we can explain it to you when the next meeting is or when you need to get your items in. And is there any other type of information like a website or a newsletter where the unit owners would be able to find out the information about what's going on with the board and the building? Well, most associations have websites nowadays and there is a calendar there and there's usually news items. I know message boards are put out and bulletins are used to notify people of board meetings. Newsletters, some associations do them all the time. Some do them like twice a year. They're great and their information packs I'd suggest people read them should the association choose to spend the money to send those out, but they don't come out often enough. I think if you have a question, just call your site manager or your resident manager. You know, and if you want an audience with the board, you always do have the owners forum option. You know, at every board meeting, you can just show up without being on the agenda and usually at the beginning or the end of the meeting, they say, this is owners forum, we haven't entered into the board meeting yet and you're able to talk about whatever you want. I noticed a lot of people who do that though, they're coming to the board with things that I could have handled for them. You know, they have a question about submitting something, you know, or they received a citation letter and they didn't understand it or and they think they need to come to the board. And so again, I would just pretty much for anything, call your site manager, see if it's something they can handle for you or if they recommend that you wait for a board meeting and in the end, they can do what they want. But I think we're a really valuable source of information. We kind of know what all the different roles are. So you utilize us, you pay for it. And you know, now there's a bill going through the legislature that requires, you know, when you post the notice for the meeting, now you have to post a list of agenda items, if not the agenda. I mean, some boards post the agenda when they post their notice of meeting, but now it will be required. I agree with that, yeah. Mainly because that way people can decide whether or not they want to come to the meeting. Because they say, oh well, they're talking about sub-metering and I'm interested in sub-metering, so I'm going to show up at that meeting. And so we think it's a good idea. It is in the pending legislation. It is moving out. I don't see any problems with that passing out. So I think the owners can expect that. So that kind of gives them a little bit of more information so that they can participate in their board meetings. What about, you know, there's some other things that the owners usually, you know, they call you to get permission to do things through their units. Like all condominiums have requests for ACs. Or if you want to make a change to your unit, like enclosure lanai or install solar panels on a townhouse, you know, these are things that are kind of typically, in the building rules, I mean, you have to get permission. And so how are you involved in that process? It is different for each association. Some have the on-site office process, those as they come in. So we're involved from the very beginning to the very end from giving out the application, making sure it's actually filled out properly, you know, and processing it through to the design committee. Most associations, the property management company handles that. So people will actually, homeowners will submit directly to the property management company. The site manager can provide them with forms and maybe explanations and some guidelines based on the documents. But for the most part, it gets processed through the property management company. It gets put on the agenda and then it goes to the board and then at the board meeting, it's a line item that they cover and they get all the printouts of what was submitted and they talk about it, they vote on it and then it gets approved or denied with conditions. And then the property management company mails the letter to the homeowner and then we get a copy so we know for citation purposes or for the files. But you know, do all of these approvals have to go through the board? I mean, if you have a design committee in place, aren't those design committees empowered so to speak to give the approval? Not always, yeah, not always. Yeah, well some, your governing documents will tell you if your design committee can act autonomously from the board of directors. The board that I sit on actually is that way where the board has nothing to do with the design. And we have a design committee that meets every month does the approvals and they just notify the board of what got approved. Most associations, I would say, the board is the design committee. If they get a lot of volume of design applications coming in, some boards will opt to create a design guideline document where they pre-specify all of the approved things that the board agrees on, like screen doors, AC units, solar, basic guidelines that the board can kind of pre-approve that, hey, if it falls within these guidelines, then we will allow it. And then they'll appoint a committee chair that can operate outside of the board meeting to approve those items if they meet those specific guidelines. But typically a committee doesn't have an authority to do anything other than gather data and make recommendations back to the board of directors. So if they don't have a whole lot of requests coming in, the reason they break it off is because it takes up so much time at the board meeting. But if they just have one or two here and there, typically the board will handle it. And then your design committee is really just, if some extra research needs to be done, the committee will go do that and then come back to the board with their recommendation. Okay, and what if the board only meets, doesn't meet every month? I mean, some boards meet quarterly. Yeah, I would say the quarterly boards are typically the ones that do try to create those design guidelines and separate appoint someone to do approvals in between for basic things. But if you've got a strange modification, something that's an exception to the norm, it would still need to come to the board typically unless you have those documents that say that that design can operate on their own. And some documents actually tell the board they have to respond to a homeowner design request within a certain amount of time. Some documents are silent, but some actually say you've gotta get back to them within 60 days or it's automatically approved. So if you're a board member, you wanna make sure and read your documents and find out under your design guidelines section, is there a time limit for you to respond? Because if you're meeting quarterly and you've got a 60 or 38 deadline, you're gonna need to come up with another solution. Either that or it's gonna get automatically approved and the homeowner will be able to do that. Whatever they want. Yeah, whatever, okay. Right, right. Okay, and let me talk about some special types of communications. And you alluded to it earlier about owners and board members communicating with employees. And I guess there is this misconception in condo land where all homeowners feel that because they pay the salary of an association employee that they are the employers. They're not the employers, are they? Indirectly, but not directly, you know. And so a unit owner really has no business telling an association employee how to do their job. Right. And so do you run into situations where you have heard from association employees that, Mrs. Jones and 2F is harassing me or she's following around with a camera and telling me I'm not doing my job? Don't get me started all the time, all the time. And it's just, we have a lot of turnover with staff because they do feel harassed. And so for the owners who are listening, please pay attention. You may be paying maintenance fees and those maintenance fees may be paying the salary of association employees, but you are not the employer. Please, please, please. You have to be very cognizant because the association can get sued for not protecting the employees from harassment. No, and you know what? Even more so, more of the liability is the board members doing it. Because homeowners, you can only control behavior so much of a random homeowner. It's like, oh, well, they didn't know what they were doing. We reprimanded them. But you have a board member that's acting as a board member outside of a board meeting and bossing people around and telling owners what to do and telling employees what to do. That's a liability. That is a huge issue. The board members, again, are only board members in a board meeting. They're homeowners outside of a board meeting. There is one point of contact from the board that handles emergencies in between meetings and that's the person that we usually communicate with if necessary. But we should be able to come to a meeting, decide on things and go from meeting to meeting and not even talking between necessarily unless there's a lot going on. And the board members and the homeowners should be separate. Everything should flow through the management about everything, whether it's about an employee, a vendor, landscape, an incident. You should never go knock on your board members door at two in the morning and say, my house is flooding. Your first call should be to your site manager so we can get somebody out there to shut the water down and get the extraction on the way and help you out. That board member is a homeowner and they deserve to sleep. And we're running out of time. And so that means you have to come back. You have to come back because my next question was gonna be about water intrusion. And how to deal with an owner who is just freaking out because there's water all over their unit. And that's a situation that you've probably been involved. So next time, next time we're gonna be talking about that. Thank you very much to Camille Fong for being on our show today. And please join us next Thursday. Richard Emery will be here and he will be talking about 514B. Okay, thank you very much for joining us.