 Welcome to the nonprofit show. We are so glad to have you here. Yes, our guest today for today's conversation is Melissa Kigua. And she's here as founder CEO from the idealist. And if you can't see from her picture, she brings so much energy, so much excitement. I'm just really looking forward to the conversation. So again, Melissa's going to talk to us about being an idealist in the real world. So stay with us. We of course want to do a few of our housekeeping. And that includes making sure that you know who we are. So if you haven't met us yet, Julia Patrick is here. Julia is the CEO at the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, her lucky co-host that gets to serve alongside nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group. And we wouldn't be here without the amazing support from our vision, some of our visionaries, right? The presenting sponsor. So a huge shout out to our friends with Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy at National University that's having their conference soon. I'm just quick shout out, June 1 in San Diego. Also nonprofit thought leader, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd, and nonprofit tech talk. And actually with your part-time controller, another shout out because Julia, did you see they just opened their DC office? So 30 years, still opening up new offices. So all kinds of good stuff going on, but please do check them out. They are amazing partners and they are your partners here in the nonprofit sector as well. In fact, they've helped us to produce over 800 episodes and you can find them on multiple channels which includes streaming broadcast platforms, podcast platforms, and the latest and greatest is the app. So go ahead and download the app on your smartphones and you will get a notification. And just a couple of hours in fact, that today's episode with Melissa has been updated. So without further ado, we do wanna introduce our guest again. So Melissa, so glad to have you here for our viewers and listeners. Melissa Kigua has joined us, founder CEO, the idealist podcast talking about breakthroughs. So welcome to you, Melissa. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to get into my work and to share with your audience and just to connect. Absolutely. Now you and I met at an event and I was so taken with you that I can hardly participate in the event when I was there. So I have to like say that and I was a bad guest that night. We had a good time. Well, it was just so intrigued. So I don't think Jared knows this but tell us your origin story because you really have an international life that I assume has helped form some of these traits that you possess. Yeah, you could say that I've lived a lot quickly. That's great. That's great. Many different lifetimes in one abridged life. So I started my career as a journalist and I lived in East Africa and I traveled to South America and Asia and I had a radio show and I was on TV and I loved that but I couldn't see the future of it. I didn't know. I just couldn't see what would journalism look like in 30, 40 years, right? I had some red flags going off. Ended up at the BBC was the youngest of our department in the Africa section or the Africa department but I just couldn't see it. So I tried to make my way in Hollywood. Ended up working for John Legend which was really beautiful. He's just as lovely as he seems but still I had this desire that I sort of put a lot of effort, sacrifice really hard to the chagrin of my family and everyone else would be like aren't you just gonna go get married and settle down? Why do you keep trying to scale these mountains? I'd get to the top of something and then I'd say what else? Or there must be more. And so then I made my way into entrepreneurship specifically tech and built my first company which was in the luxury rental space. And then now working on my second company which is Breakthrough which I'll happily talk about. And that's where I sort of found that entrepreneurship asked me to put everything on the line in a way that I like to do, right? And it's one of the things I talk about when we talk about being an idealist is that immense and intensive self-awareness where you say what am I here to do and what is my capacity, right? I think that the Chinese call it Qi. The Nigerians also have this idea of Qi. What is your vitality and what are you here to do? And so I started this podcast two years ago called The Idealists where I was in the, I was building this company. I was like, how do people do this? It's a pandemic. Like how do you keep your wits about you? How do you keep going? And I would look at these companies and I had immense respect. I think before when I was more of a journalist I was like, you know, but suddenly when you're trying to build something and you go, my God, they've survived depressions, world wars, peaks, valleys, et cetera, et cetera. And you're able to still keep things going and become a beloved brand that we know and we trust. How do you do that? And so I started by asking my alma mater, the London School of Economics if they wanted to collaborate on this podcast. They said, yes. And I just started interviewing really prolific entrepreneurs, activists, you know, creatives and artists around the world. How do you do what you do? How do you keep going? And surprisingly enough, you know, their answers are very, you start seeing patterns come up and you start seeing a particular way of looking at the world, a particular understanding of oneself and one's purpose. And so happy to delve into that, but that sort of gives you a very quick espresso shot. I like espresso shots. I hear it from you. I hear it from you, company, yeah. So let's start with your energy and your travels. I mean, being born in Africa, having lived in the Great Britain, in the Great Britain, I said that like the Ohio State, but living in Great Britain and then moving to the U.S., what do you think makes someone an idealist? And the second part of that is, you know, can you become that? Or are these people that are just born that way? Great question. I'll make one slight correction. I was actually born in London. So daughter of... Yes, daughter of political asylums. My mom fled Uganda during Idi Amin's regime and had me in London. So... Thank you for correcting me. No worries at all. Well, what makes someone an idealist? I say very, you know, it's someone who pushes against the status quo and achieves extraordinary results. Because, and those two are different parts, right? There's the pushing against the status quo, which takes a lot of energy, a lot of stubbornness, you know, a willingness, but it doesn't always mean you achieve results. Sometimes pushing against the status quo, you get pushed back. And I think a lot of people listening to this show would understand that. In the nonprofit space, you are constantly, you know, upholding ideals that go against, you know, intense consumerism, intense materialistic, you know, sensibilities. You believe in a sense that, like, there should be an equality of opportunity for people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So there's that. But then there's also the achievement, which speaks to some sort of willpower, work ethic, ability to network in ways that you get what you need, self-possession, and a willingness to keep getting up regardless, you know? It's fascinating. It reminds me a little bit about the book, Grit, in which I'm sure the both of you have read it. And so I loved your question, Julia, like, are you born with this? Can you, is it a muscle that you can grow and develop? It's a muscle. It's a muscle. It's a muscle. And we get tricked out of believing that we are not special, talented, able to achieve with rhetoric that says we're born with it, right? You know, I'm in the startup space. And with startups, as well as non-for-profit, you are always trying to conserve your resources enough to stay alive another day. And but it's not just staying alive another day with your company, it's also, you know, being able to stay alive to actualize your potential, your own potential. And that comes through learning skills and that comes through, there's a learning curve. Some it takes six months, some it might take three years. I don't know. But the question is, do you have the muscle to stay, to go, you know, to live and extend out the learning curve to get to what you need? Or to get enough resources to hire the people around you or get the resources around you to kind of outsource that so you can continue doing the thing that you're really good at. It's time and it's just the ability to work through the really hard stuff. To persevere, persevere and resilience are two of the words that come to the top of my mind, you know, and really, and I look at my career, Julia, and I know, you know, you can look at yours as well. This is my 14th year of business. And Melissa, I say, some years I'm on the roller coaster, some years, some days, it's ever changing. My hands are up and I have so much joy in other days, I'm just white-knuckling going, oh, here we go. Going down, just like, why did I do this? Why did I do this? But you can't get off. No, that bar is locked and you are there. I like cameras taking pictures of you. Yes, oh my gosh. The visuals that you're bringing to me today is amazing. So let's talk a little bit about visionaries, right? Like what are some shared traits of visionaries in particular? And then maybe you can even define like, what is visionary? What does that definition look like? Yeah, so I mean, a visionary, it's in the name, right? I could go into the sort of Latin etymology of it, but I'll keep it simple. It's someone who holds a vision and can make it happen, right? So I always, I say it's two, it's always the two parts. It's the having the vision, but it's also being able to actualize it and staying in the game long enough to see it to fruition. Shared traits, so interestingly enough, on our show, I would break our guess into five categories, though I think that now I'm seeing a sixth. And you can kind of go to our website, theidealistpodcast.co and kind of take a peek there. What I would say is that, and we speak to women-identified visionaries, which people don't always want to give us our creed or give us our, you know, or look at us like, oh, that's a visionary trait. I would say that there are different types of knowledges that women-identified individuals have. And so there are the cerebrals, it's intellectuals, and those are women that are gonna go, those are, they're getting their doctorates, they're studying, they're researching, they're analyzing, right? And so when you speak to them, they have ways of looking at the world that's probably gonna be very data-intensive, you know? So that's one way. You're probably gonna listen to them on a TED stage talking about neuroscience and the brain. Another is, I call her the observant creator. And these are women who are remarkable at getting into a room, seeing where the power flows, and then being there. It is a skill, it is a skill, it's a gift, not everyone can do it. And they're able to generate goodwill towards themselves, opportunities. They might not be the most intellectual, they might not even be the nicest, but they know how to navigate power. I'd say another wisdom that we see is the sort of like intuitive spiritual mystical. And I own that, and I get a little pushback on that one because I'm in collaboration with an academic institution, but I said, but to not acknowledge the ways that women speak about intuition, gut knowledge, knowing dreams, and you think of somebody who really has given their life to this and some sort of, you know, that's where you're getting into the sort of esoteric masters, right? So there's a number of different sort of categories that we see, but I think that if somebody's interested, we have a little one minute quiz on our site, you can go and check it out and see what you think you are. So you teased us, what is the sixth one that you're thinking? Yeah, I just know that, like what's kind of bubbling up? What's bubbling to the surface, percolating? So she would be the warrior, the athlete, and she's different than, her mentality is so different than most, but she also struggles in a way because like that, so you think of like Leila Ali, or you think of our Olympians, you know, you think of Serena and the level, you wanna talk about grit and perseverance. Oh yeah. You wanna talk about self-sacrifice. Do these women have friends? Right, right. Does Serena have friends? They're, it's very- I don't know, I don't know how easy it would be to be Serena's friend, just in terms of time. Does she have the time, you know, maybe now she's retired. What time commitment? The time commitment, you know, sitting around someone that kind of like complains a lot and she's just like, just go do it. Just do it. Just do it. Oh my God, that's the line of the day. You'd be like, but Serena, they did this again? Yeah, yes. Just get up and go do it. So don't do it, it's very intense, it's very intense, you know, so that's someone I'm looking at because I think that she would, if we see archetypes of women past, you know, like there's like the Joan of Arc's and there's like the Dahomey warriors. And so I love, I love women, I love our power. I love the ways that we've shown up in history and the lineages and all of this goes into the work I do now and really supporting women in terms of like the transformation of how do you tap into your inner visionary or how do we keep, you know, iron sharpening iron if you're already in that and you're already powerful? You know, even Serena has a coach where it's like, you got to keep it up. You lost Wimbledon that one year, but that doesn't mean you're going to lose another year. Let's keep you sharp. Yeah, well, and I think that's a really good, you know, you're making me think about do you become complacent? Do visionaries become complacent as well as idealists, right? Are we constantly getting to that peak and saying, what's next, what's next, what's next? Growing, learning, training, educating, all of that, right? So what are you seeing in that space? Yeah, 100%, I think that there's a natural inclination for people who are highly motivated to keep trying to be, to keep ascending a new mountain. And actually what we'd say is that that actually is one of the sort of like toxic aspects because if you're always in achieve mode, if you have tied your sense of value to achieving, right? That's also going to create certain pathologies within you that, you know, and there's physiological ramifications for that. So what does it mean to achieve? And this is a line I say when introducing my podcast, you know, how do we do this at the highest level of our capacity while still being conscious of the planet, people and our wellbeing, right? I don't think that it's okay anymore to say that I'm a genius, but I'm going to be a total, you know, excuse my language, but asshole, you know, for that, like it's just archaic, right? Like if you have the capacity to create brilliant things, you have the capacity to also create brilliant things within your humanity. And I think that is, that's what I would like to see is people not just being visionary in what they build, but being visionaries, human beings, what is our capacity as a species? Right. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, Julia. So we had one of the most interesting questions just came in and one of our viewers writes in, can a person be a visionary, but not enjoy being a leader? What an amazing question. What a wonderful question. Wow, here's a higher moment for me. Yes, yes, yes. And I'm sad to be blanking on the particular Greek name, but there was a Greek sort of like tale about this man who was incredibly wise, humble and a farmer. And war broke out, you know, and people came to him because they said, you have the most immense wisdom of all of us. Will you come and lead us? And he said, I don't wanna leave my farm, but I will. And he went, he led, he got, you know, he rallied the troops, he did what was done, he made sure that they didn't lose epically, you know, that they still had money in the coffers. And when it was all done, right, because he had been given this position as sort of like, leader of the people, leader of the military. He said, I'm so thankful that we have done this. I'm so proud of you. Now it's time to go back to my farm. And it was this tale of, you know, like he did what he had to do, he was called to do, but he didn't, you know, he led to do, but he didn't, that wasn't the position he wanted. He wanted to farm, he wanted to be with his animals. And I think it's a good way of thinking about, you know, we have so many books, so many tried ideas about leadership and what that means. I would just say that the goal is to channel it in terms of do what you're here to do in alignment with your capacity and leave the rest. Right. Doesn't even mean you're always happy about it, but I see that like, this is about being mission led and not being necessarily individually led, which I think a lot of your listeners will understand. Yeah, I so appreciate that question as well as your answer, Melissa. And I ironically had brunch with a colleague of mine who's I would say is a leader in the space, but she doesn't want to lead a team. Like she doesn't want management responsibilities. She really wants to be really good at what she does, but doesn't want to lead a team. And I see leaders as, you know, you can lead by what you're doing and by demonstration, I think is a better word. And maybe not to have that responsibility, right? Of managing the team. So I just so appreciate you bringing that answer to our viewers' question. I think that's really, really critical. Yeah, and I would add like if I was so, for example, so I think I've talked a lot about the idealists, but not so much about breakthrough, which is where, you know, I have a team of really phenomenal executive coaches and we do leadership programs and we do a number of different things to support. Again, this visionary mindset, how do you keep sharp? And the thing I would ask your friend is, you know, you may not want to manage a team, but what are you here to do? Because sometimes the things we don't want to do are the things we need to do, but sometimes maybe not. So when you look around your company or you look around your, you know, whatever else, are there other people who have those skills that can do it better than you more efficiently than you? Then it's like, okay, empower those people to do that and have some hard conversations with leadership that, hey, you're trying to put me in a managerial role and that's not where my talents are gonna be and let's talk about that. And that could be a visionary decision, but another visionary decision could be, what would Serena Williams tell you to do? She'd tell you to put on your shoes and get to work. Right? Thank you. Well, that brings us to mindset, right? So let's talk about the mindset shift. You know, what's necessary when it comes to the mindset? What are we looking at for that? It's such a good question. We recently had on the show, Martha Beck, who is Oprah's life coach. And her and I have become friends and she speaks to a lot of leaders of color, you know, globally. And she was talking to me, she said, Melissa, like I keep hearing this line of like, I'm so tired. I'm so exhausted. I'm really exhausted. And the counter, so I say mindset becomes counterintuitive because I said to her, well, if our leaders who are supposed to be shepherding in this new world of equity and equality and all the beautiful things that we want for the world are tired, then we are screwed. Simply put, right? Again, shifting it from the individual to the macro, right? If you're all tired, then what are you doing? Why are you leading? And that's a hard thing to hear and to process because we feel so inundated with the work, the scarcity of the resources. But the whole point of this is being able to fill, and this is where I talk about the capacity of the individual, your only job. And this is something that comes up on the show. Your only job for self is to keep your well full so you can do what you're here to do. That is your job. No one else is coming to do that for you. No one else is going to give you the rest. No one else is going to put the good food in your mouth. No one else is going to tell you to wake up and go work out. It is your capacity of self. And so, but what I did say is that, so if our leaders are exhausted, that's a problem because an exhausted leader will take us nowhere, but there is a caveat to that, right? If you, again, I don't know why I've got all these like war analogies, but going back to the sort of like 300 Spartan sort of thing, I don't know why, but you can have really, you know, tired, weary troops. You can have, you know, exhausted troops that have been out in battle for months and months and they haven't seen their families and they're weary. And the one way that you're able to galvanize them is through inspiration and a shared mission. You're able to get to the end. So you can be tired and battered and still win, but you have to maintain that hope and idealism. And her name, she's a Nobel Prize winner. She's a journalist from the Philippines. I believe her name is Maria Reese. She talks about, you know, lies circulate in society at six times the rate of truth. And so we get a lot of misinformation faster than we get truth, right? And that's why we have all this nonsense that we're dealing with. And she said, the only thing that moves through a society faster and quicker than lies and mistruths is inspiration. It's not fact, it's not data, it's inspiration. I mean, you think about when you're inspired, it's goosebumps, you feel activated, all of you. So I would say that's, you have to maintain that. You have to, it is your job. The other thing with inspiration for me means that the time goes by so quickly. And as I look at the clock and I'm like, it's already coming to an end. What do you share with us, Melissa, about the journal? The journal? Yes, I have a copy of the journal here. So the journal is our first sort of physical product. So a lot of our businesses, we're sort of coming in and we're offering a lot of services, right? We do have the sort of tech-enabled platform where we work with corporate entities. So if anybody watching this is interested to bringing our leadership development program, we love working with teams. We want to galvanize people. We want people to do their best work and it doesn't have to break you. And so, but the journal is a self-coaching tool. So you can buy it again on our website, theidlspodcast.co, over 400 inquisitive prompts and challenges to get you into that deep mode of self-awareness we have here. Let me show you the sort of table of contents because it's really beautiful. Okay, so we have, you can see here at the table of contents. So we have gratitude, abundance and harvesting the good, lust, love and erotic intelligence. Long live the tribe of mothers and that includes the motherless, the childless by choice or IVF warriors, bonus moms and mentor mothers, women's wisdom and inner magic, women's history, passion, self-awareness, rest, alignment, flow. So we go really deep so that you can, it's a journal, but it's prompted. And so you can go in there on your own time and really do some deep self-excavation because I truly believe that, as the old feminist paradigm, the personal is political, but the public is also political. And so how we show up impacts how we show up in the public sphere. And we wanna be intentional about it. Right, absolutely. Well, this has been fascinating. I start my day every morning listening to a podcast and I just have to tell you, I am certainly downloading yours and I want to add it to the queue. So again, Melissa, Kigua, thank you for joining us today. Please do check out theidealistspodcast.co. You can learn more about Melissa, learn more about the breakthrough, purchase the journal, right? So much good going on. So Julia and Melissa, I'm so glad you sat together at an event. And I just can't wait to see where you go, Melissa, and where you help others go and the community go. So thank you for all that you do. It's been phenomenal. Thank you so much for your time. And if anyone wants to follow me, I'm on Instagram as well, reach out DM me, tell me your thoughts about this. I'm always happy to get even compassionate disagreements at Melissa Kigua. I love it, I love it. Well, you know, you have said some things that resonated that have taught me new things. That's one of the amazing pieces of the nonprofit shows. Each and every day, Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerder myself, we learn something new and we get engaged. And there's a lot of really exciting things going on. And Melissa, you are part of that. Another big part of what goes on are sponsors. And they include Blumerang, the American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit, excuse me. Yeah, nonprofit nerd, what? Hello, how could I forget that? And nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out for these thoughtful conversations that we get to have. You know, I think today, Jared, and I'm not sure, I think today is our 800th episode. Stop it. I think. Are you kidding? I'm going to divert my eyes and take a look. So I think 17. Is it? It might be. Congratulations. Whoa, wait. Is it? That's my fireworks. Yes, Melinda. Wow. Look under your seat and you've just won a card. Oh my gosh. You get a card. You get a card. You get a card. You get a card. Oh my God, that's hilarious. Well, you know, what better way to have an 800th celebration? Yes. About being a visionary. And that's what it takes in the nonprofit sector. And there are tough days, but there are days of phenomenal joy and that comes from within for the most part and for most of us. So Melissa, what a fortuitous thing to be seated next to you. And we look forward to learning more about what you do and how you maintain your idealism and bring others along. So thank you very much. Absolutely. Thank you so much for you, your energy and 800 episodes is no small feat. Congratulations. I'd love to send you both a copy of the journal for yourself. I would love it. I would love it. I would love it. Hey everybody, as we like to end every episode of the nonprofit show, we leave you with our mantra and that is to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Thank you everybody. Thank you ladies.