 If so, live on the breakfast here on Plus TV Africa, let's move to our first major topic for today now. We are once again speaking with Mr. Ambrose Iboque, who's joining us from Inugu State. The conversation is centered around the People's Democratic Party and breaking news that seven members of its National Working Committee have resigned. Some of the papers report that it is because of a crisis with regards to the leadership of Uche Secundas. It says that those who resigned include the Deputy National Financial Secretary, Deputy Legal Advisor, Deputy National Auditor, the Deputy National Publicity Secretary, and the Deputy Women Leader, and Deputy Organizing Secretary of the Party. And also, the All Progressive Congress and what Congress is on the crisis, which of course has also made the news. But we'll say good morning to Ambrose Iboque once again. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. All right, so let's start mostly with the crisis with the PDP. How much damage do you think this does to the party? First of all, it was a shocker that this happened. I didn't see that coming, and I'm sure many people didn't see that coming because PDP over the years have been capable of showing enough capacity to take care of its problems, except when it started by having issues somewhere between 2013 and 2014 when the new PDP emerged. So for a long time, they kept the party intact. And then when the Dino Malayas and the Sarakis left, that is where the issues of the party started have come into the floor. This present one, there's something that is very interesting that is happening in this resignation saga. We noticed that what has happened mostly is that the deputies were the ones resigning. So this brings out a lot of questions. Why are the deputies resigning? Is it that they didn't have a working relationship with the substantive heads of those units? Because most of the people that have resigned are the deputies. So why, what is happening? Is there a grievance that was not being addressed over time? Were there be sad lines? Were there been not carried along the decisions made by the substantive heads? So these are the questions that can be answered. Or is there a thought in the hand of ESO, as we say, dramatically, that we're propelling these people to take the action? But whatever angle we look at it, it is not good for the party. And the parties should do everything as quickly as possible to reconcile these aggrieved ESCO members and bring back the party together. Let's now also focus a little bit more on the Uche Secundice Controversy and those who may not want his leadership and those who say that he has not been able to carry the party well enough. What's your response to that? And is that a big enough reason for the crisis that we are seeing today? Well, for me, I don't see, in Nigeria, we see leadership as something that is due or die. If you say you want to lead a political party and the people you are leading are saying they don't want to. But on the other hand, the leadership of the party said that there's only a few people that are saying that in the legal field in the party that is being vociferous and saying that they don't want the leadership. So a crisis like this happened, the first best thing to do is to call for a convention. And when the conventions are called, there you can do what you can elect whoever you want to elect. And then the politics will take place. But what has happened over the years, we call recently a strange, it's becoming strange where conventions are being avoided by both parties. So I don't know when the PDP did this convention last, or when the APC did this convention last. And it is only through this convention that you can actually select, elect, or ratify your leaders. So parties should not shy away from conventions and the rest. Let them hold this. And let them, that is only when the leadership can validate its authority. Or the people can say we don't want you and then go and get what they want. And so if there are no conventions and they think they've been avoided, we'll continue having this kind of monumental issues across parties. Okay, Mr. Ibuki, something I wanted to bring up regarding this PDP conversation. These leaders of the National Working Committee who resigned, gave an expose yesterday saying that there was a lack of financial transparency. And they went on to challenge all leaders in Nigeria to go ahead and probe how monies have been spent that was generated from the sale of forms. Do you think this is coming as a black male? Because, I mean, they've been in this party all along. They're aware of all these discrepancies happening. So why now? And what exactly should the EFCC and other financial crimes unit begin to do about that? I don't believe the expose, as you call it. When these people come out and make this kind of statement, they take these actions, resign, they want to justify the resignation based on altruistic reasons. That is always the post theory that is done in a political space. I don't, I don't, I'm not fooled by that. Most of this resignation are things that are done on a personal basis, for personal grievances, either personally as an individual or as a representative of a party of a power bloc. So the financial, lack of financial transparency that they brought on board is just a smokescreen that they are using to shoot the main issues on ground. They should tell us what is the main issues on ground. I'll stop there. Okay, Mr Eiboke. I'm going to the gallery. Mr Eiboke, you say this is like a smokescreen but there's some evidence that he put out. They said that, first of all, they're petitioning the anti-graft agencies, the EFCC, the ICPC, to scrutinize close to 10 billion Naira that was allegedly accrued to the PDP's purse from 2017 to date. And they said that Uche Secondus avoided the use of the bank accounts of the PDP and used the bank accounts of one Morufu Nigeria limited as a conduit pipe for financial mismanagement. You think this is not something, you think there's nothing here to investigate? Is that what you're saying? From 2017 till 2021 is four years. How can you sit as a member of the National Working Committee of the Political Party and allow your members to pay into a private or corporate account that is not a PDP account? The story does not add up. So if you have allowed that to happen, then, first of all, you are carrying four years later, we need to probe order because why would members of the political party in the first place pay into a private account other than that of the party? So why they have raised this issue? They have raised it like when the things started, all would have told their members not to do that. And if that has begun since 2017, they would have gone to court as validated members of the party and members of the Escrow of the National Working Committee would have gone to court to challenge that financial immorality of our college because you cannot ask your party members to be paying things that are put into the party, be it a sale or form, be it membership, be it whatever, be it donations or whatever to the party to private account. That's happened 20 years, second year, fourth year, fourth year. So that is why I say that we know these things, they don't add up. Because if they didn't do, why did you do that? Why did you allow that to happen in the first place? Why didn't you raise the alarm since? But that is not the case. Raising the alarm now, let them allow the ESCC and ICPC to do their job. And then we will watch and see the outcome. But I am not convinced that why the result was for two stick reasons. All right, Mr. Ibuke, I'm going to go back again and get your view on, as an opposition party, I believe that there are expectations for the People's Democratic Party. And you earlier mentioned that with the failure of the PDP to stand firm as an opposition party, it basically leaves Nigeria in a one-party state, which is not very good for Nigeria's democracy like you had described earlier. But do you think that Uche Sakhondas has been able to carry the party effectively as an opposition party, seeing, of course, the defections that have happened in the last couple of months and years, and also seeing the strength and the belief that the Nigerian people, most importantly, the belief that the Nigerian people still have in the People's Democratic Party? Do you think that Uche Sakhondas has been able to keep that party strong enough? Well, the way the Nigerian political space is arranged is that the party chairman, the national party chairman, can only work as far as his members, especially the governors, allow him to do so. Because the owners of the party is not the party chairman. The owners of the party go beyond the party chairman. And any party chairman can be removed through convention. So for the current party chairman of the PDP to do work, look at the way the APC party chairman was removed, Mr. Adam Soshomole. So the powers to remove or elect a political party chairman of a political party resides with the members of the party. Therefore, when you say Mr. Uche Sakhondas is not doing his because he has feelings that people are leaving the party. What are the party members themselves doing about this? So if the party members wanting to stay, the power blocks within the party wanting to stay, that is why he's still there. If they don't want him to stay, he will not be there. So that is their arrangement as a political party. And they are entitled to it. But what we are saying as people, as citizens, is that the PDP as a party should wake up to its responsibility or play a credible opposition from a terrorist opposition and a strategy composition to tackle whatever the ruling party is doing. Just like what the APC did to PDP when they were in opposition. That is the kind of so that they can put the ruling party on their toes. That is what an opposition does. But there's also people who criticize the manner with which the APC stood as an opposition party before it eventually took over power. There's people who've said that they used very crude means and that's not the method of the PDP. And that's not what they've been known for. So are you saying that they should do pretty much the same thing that the APC did and built up to the elections in 2015? Or is it possible that the PDP has their own way of being an opposition party? What would you suggest? If you were in that position to suggest, what would you suggest should be the manner the PDP should stand as an opposition party? As a PR consultant myself, I know that you can always try to message without using hate speech, without using putting death on people, without using insightful languages and the rest. You can drive over your point. So but the aspect I am talking about, that I think which we have related as an opposition party, is the aspect of relentlessness. That the APC as a political party when it was in opposition did not allow the PDP to rest on its oars. Every action taken by the PDP where it was scrutinized was dissected and then the loopholes, they brought up the loopholes and then fired it up. You only ask what we don't agree with is, for example, where you call it, where you carry a coffin, for example, and you say RIP to the sitting president or call a sitting president, or say a sitting president is clueless, those kind of languages and gutter languages that should not be allowed in any lexicon of informed people. But aside that, the APC played its role very well by putting the PDP on its toes when it was in opposition. So that is the kind of thing we want PDP to do now. The style should be color, lock, or did, well, when it started, one of the sudden we phasored out, at least that the two was doing it, and a lot of sudden we didn't hear anything again. What we explain the PDP to do is to dig out the dirt, to dig out the mud, to do investigation, do intelligence, break out things that are happening and use it as a tool of propaganda, as a tool for making your ruling party be on its toes. As far as that is what that is what it is to do in the opposition party, we see the examples in the UK parliament, we see it in the American Senate and the House, where what they want to do, very good policy, you dissect the policy, all the happenings, the actions taken by God, the executive orders, the failures, so that the ruling party can be on its toes. And once we have that, then we can always be a better society for what we are. Remember the 1960s to 1960s, there was even an opposition leader in the parliament. That is why in the parliamentary system, we even had it recognized that our position leader was in the House. Because they know that the danger of allowing the ruling party on the cruise, on the cruise ride, they know the danger. Those who brought up the position know the danger of that. And that's why they always put that. The PDP should put his hands on that and play that role. Nigerians need them to play that role. Okay, talking about the role that is supposed to play as an opposition party, Amin Utambua, governor of Sokota State and chairman of the PDP Governance Forum, put out a statement yesterday saying that the People's Democratic Party is the only hope of good governance in Nigeria. I'm giving all the challenges and international problems in the party. Do you see that as a likelihood? Do I see that as? As a likelihood. And also, there are so many other political parties in Nigeria coming up now. There's several other political parties who seem to want to put up a national coalition, especially with a thought force that Jaga has been speaking of. But the PDP are insisting that they are the only hope of good governance in Nigeria. So what do you think about that? Is that statement valid? It's a matter of just like what we used to say, my car is bigger than yours, or my house is bigger than yours, statement. Every party has a right to sell. Amin Utambua does sell his party to the Nigerian populist, the Nigerian citizens who will eventually be the voters in 2023. So we will see all those kinds of statements coming up very soon. Every party believes that it is the best party to rule Nigeria. So it's not something strange. He's just been, of course, as the number one, as the chairman of the PDP Governors Forum has a very strong stakeholder in the party. His work is to sell the party to Nigeria. And if he says his party is the best, of course, he's using the marketing language to sell his party. And that is allowed in politics. But talking about the good governance he mentioned, you know, the internal situation of a party should be able to give us an insight into what might play out when they, you know, have the helm of affairs of the country. Do you actually think that the PDP can guarantee good governance in Nigeria with the way it's standing as an opposition? First of all, when we use the word good governance in Nigeria, I don't think we know the indices of good governance across board, be it across party lines. Nigerian citizens themselves have not been able to grasp what is good governance. Because when you go across board and ask people what is good governance, they will give you different reports. So when we start, I like to talk about why speaking of good governance. From what perspective, he has not told me the perspective he's using. He has not told me the indicators he's using. He has not told me the parameters that he's using to explain or extrapolate what he means by good governance and that the party will give us good governance. The same thing with most people. So until, as a country, we try to, first of all, articulate what is good governance, what are the indicators of a good governance and then what they will really see them. Because what we call good governance in Nigeria is basically what is the right of citizens already. You know, for example, roads, beauty hospitals, schools and that is taking, that is taking in any democracy. That is an established fact. That is a natural phenomenon. So if good governance, if good governance ends with that, then some other people see good governance as employment opportunities. Some other people see it as infrastructure and development. Some other people see it as giving appointments to their own people from their own particular side of the country or community or from their profession. So this is, Nigeria has not been able to define what good governance is. And anybody can come out and say, we'll give you good governance or I'll give you the best governance. But as I say, these are all marketing strategies. You are selling your political party and you use the right moment, you use the positive energy to sell your political party and it's allowed in the political space. What would you say the PDP still needs to do in order to win the hearts of the Nigerian people again? Many people have spoken in favor of abandoning the two major political parties, the PDP and the APC, with the next general elections. There's also those who say never again to the PDP, regardless of how they feel about the current administration. Of course, it might be one of the things that, which I second to understand, of course, the members of the party itself have been criticized with not being able to show that they are truly a better option. And so in what ways would you say that the PDP can still find some good will with the Nigerian people and make the Nigerian people look at them as an option? I'm surprised that Nigerians are still making decisions as to whether which party is better, whether it's PDP or APC. For me, they are not busy for those comparisons because the politicians who are in APC today, most of them were PDPs today, and some are in APC today to know that they go back to the PDP. So there are not really any serious demarcations between the parties across party lines. So saying that whether PDP has that, what we are looking at, the politicians themselves, Nigerians should look beyond the parties. The parties are not a problem. It is ourselves as a people that are the problem. So even if you like crazy thoughts of the fifth force or the tenth force, with the political arrangement we have now, it is not the political party name that we rule. It is the people that we will have to engage with as our leaders and the citizens as well as the followers. Therefore, the PDP as a political party should quickly put his house in order. They cannot afford to go close to an election arrangements with this kind of factored arrangement where the serious members of the National Working Committee are resigning. So the first thing is quickly to get a reconciliation team to mediate. If they allow, they can get professionals to mediate and then quickly call the agreed people together and see how they can quickly resolve this in a very short time so that they can come back together and then put their house in order. Because we really need a very, very robust election. We want to see political parties show up creditor candidates. We want to see what Nigerians want to have options to vote for. And we want the major political parties to be held so that they can provide those options Okay, you gave some suggestions on what the PDP needs to do. You've also called for a national convention earlier in the show. But right now we have work that Governors of the People's Democratic Party have basically showed at an emergency meeting to discuss this. They say they have instituted an internal conflict resolution mechanism. What do you think I'll expect to be the outcome of that? Do you maybe foresee some of these leaders who resigned coming back to the PDP after they all worked things out or what's your prediction? Well, when commanding is half grievances and you don't attend to them, they decide to make a point by taking actions so that you can take them seriously. I think that's what has happened. So whatever it is, I know that as the PDP Governors have said they have internal party reconciliation strategies and mechanisms that can make it work. Maybe they resigned as a way of stating that they were not being listened to. They were not being carried along or something else is happening that they needed to bring to the attention of the Governors. Because as it still is in any political party arrangement in India, it's actually the Governors that are the power blocks in the political parties. Therefore, it is good that the Governors are looking into it. Maybe the National Working Committee Executive Council did not look into it critically. That is why it snowballed into this issue of mass resignation. Let's wait for the outcome of what the Governors will do. But I'm sure that they should be able to come out with solutions because these are seasoned politicians and administrators. They should be able to come out with a solution to this eternal crisis. Is there a role you think the likes of Attico Abubakar and former President Gulok Jonathan can still play in all of this? Who? I'm asking, is there a role you think Attico Abubakar and former President Gulok Jonathan can still play in settling these crises in the PDP? I see no members of the party. They are looked upon as party leaders. So the Governors have moved in and I'm sure that the Governors can resolve. If the leaders are coming, they are all leaders of the party. And every leader of the party has a role to play to ensure that their party, of every political party, have a role to play to ensure that their party remains intact. And every political party was formed to win elections. They are not just formed for mere existence. So if you have to win elections, you have to be serious. Your party have to be intact. And then dissensions have to be at the barest minimum so that you can remain focused. That's the essence of political party arrangement. Okay. Finally, before we go, I want you to speak with regard to something that I brought up, I think, last week. And that is a redirection of political parties towards the 2023 general elections. There's a lot of Nigerians who are looking to see young and progressive and different mindsets in these political parties. Would you advise that these major political parties start to think in that direction and look out for candidates that fit into the picture that Nigerians are looking towards, adopting younger, more vibrant, more progressive candidates to fly the flag for them in 2023? The problem of Nigeria is not the age of its political actors. The problem of Nigeria is the mindsets of the citizens. Age has nothing to do with how you rule a country. The United States, we are using as our own examples, always, what we talk about, you know, democracy. I mean, in the last family years, we've been shown that, you know, old people can also be United States of America. People in their 70s. And I think by the time Biden is leaving office, he should be eating something. Israel, that is doing very well, is a society, is ruled by Gerontocrats. I mean, right from in the 70s of those days, you have to issue an operation in the late years, a crab game. And a lot of them, oh, man, you know, that are, I mean, ruling Israel. And Israel is doing very well. So we also have countries that are ruled by young people and they are doing well. So it is not about the age. Political parties should look to about dedication, atristic and nationalistic disposition. That is what we work. What can we do for our country to make our country better? So if we don't have that mindset as citizens, it is the citizens of Nigeria that will get elected into political offices. So if we, as a people, we are not have a regenerated mindset to know that country comes first, then we will be where we are. So it is not, it's not, so people talking about, or give it to younger people, we have said, go to the SDGs, so that, you know, government in the universities will be applauded what is happening there. And then all young people, go to Nance, Nigerians, Nigerians today, go to other places where we have youth, even in special advisors, as governors, as commissioners, ministers, and so it is not about age. So we should focus on what is really our problem and not about age. All right. Ambrose Bokeh, thank you so much for speaking with us this morning. I truly enjoyed the discussion. Thank you. Have a great day ahead. All right. Stay with us to take a short break and when we come back, we're moving into talking, you know, now mostly about the all-progressive Congress and the crisis with the award Congresses and, of course, main Malabbuni and, you know, some of all of that. The vice president, Yemio Shimbajo, is in the news this morning leading, you know, the efforts to sort out the legal, you know, challenges they might be having with the award Congresses. We'll talk about that when we come back. Stay with us.