 There we go. We are recording the Rex call the Rex monthly check-in call for September of 2018 on September 12th Which is a Wednesday? And I have a poem to take us in Which if I can find it is by Kay Ryan one of my favorite poets and is titled a ball rolls on a point a Ball rolls on a point by Kay Ryan the whole ball of Who we are presses into the green bays at a single tiny spot an Oral crackle an oral track of crackle Betrays our passage through the fibrous jungle. It's hot and desperate Insects spring out of it. The pressure is intense and the sense that we've lost proportion As though bringing too much to bear too locally or our decision Here's the link to the poem. Let me read it again A ball rolls on a point by Kay Ryan The whole ball of who we are presses into the green bays at a single tiny spot Oral track of crackle betrays our passage through the fibrous jungle. It's hot and desperate Insects spring out of it. The pressure is intense and the sense that we've lost proportion As though bringing too much to bear too locally or our decision Richard great to see you as well. This is lovely Excuse me. I'm not seeing anything Like anybody or anything Anybody or anything it just says launching launching and I can hear you we see you very nicely your your square at your dining table I think yeah, I think if you are look at a different window. So the launching windows in your browser Yeah, yeah There we go, it's hiding How silly Yay, okay, good good question solved. Thank you Kelly That was like a a break fix instance in I've never had that happen, but it just sort of blanked everything out All right Cool, how is everybody pretty good not bad I'm recovering from rotator cuff surgery and I'm tired of being a one-armed left-handed person When do you get back to pitching? They say six months six months and then you'll be on the mound again Nice Richard, what's your 20? What's your what's your location today? Actually Menlo Park. Oh, sweet Actually spent a couple of days with Dave Whittle love that gonna see him in a month or so We're passing through Oakland on our way down to Palo Alto for stuff into San Francisco for stuff Very cool. Love that This is a check-in call so we'd sort of consult one another to see what sort of rexie things were were busy diving into I'm happy to I'm sort of starting to focus on design from trust and was Didn't didn't get to send an email out yesterday to invite people to start sort of Exploring that idea together. I'm happy to dive into that But I'd rather hear what other people are are up to that bears on topics of trust and relationships and other sorts of things And the way these check-in calls generally work is we just trip across something that sounds interesting And then we pursue it for a while and and sometimes that's a fruitful quest so Whoever would like to sort of talk about what's on there on their plate or mind I get Kelly anything in particular that's That's striking you We I have not been on a rex call a long time because they have fallen exactly when we have hosted meetings with our company and so one of the meetings we had recently was What did we call it? It was leveraging AI for customer success And so we had a bunch of people who are in the support and service space come and sort of talk about how we might do that and the question that always comes up is You know AI is AI going to replace all of our jobs Right everyone's like oh, this is it. It's just we're going to be run by the machines, but in this recent meeting we We're talking about there's a movie called a documentary called Alpha Go About the people who has everybody seen it. I had not seen it and so I've not seen it It's on my playlist. It's on my things of things to see on Netflix But it is so worth it. It's so good. It sounds like such a nerd movie, right? You're like, oh a movie about people building an AI to play a game like that sounds ridiculous, but totally Suspenseful you're totally it's amazing who you root for or when and it was recommended by a good friend of ours around kind of this whole AI piece and the so I watched on the plane on the way home and came home and immediately made my kids watch it Because I was like you need to look at neural networks and all these things when you're thinking about your careers, right? But the thing that came out of it for me was really So they built this, you know, they built Alpha Go and it plays against a One of the best players in the world and it wins several of the games spoiler alert, uh, but What they learned from it is the is the way Alpha Go plays is is different than the way a human plays, right? So the way it might make a move that you know one in 10,000 humans might make Based on all of the things that it is it has learned over the way it's been programmed And and it doesn't care how much it wins by right like the it's it's sort of like I Whatever if I win by three, that's the same to me as winning by 100,000 and so I've been thinking a lot about Sort of the you know, what does this mean in terms of outcomes? Do I have to beat you to death or can I just beat you a little bit or you know, sort of how how we can work with our machine overlords to To change the way we think about some of these things So that was Looking at you know, sort of the patterns and and our approaches. I think there's a whole new world opening up Interesting, uh, they follow on to that and Alpha Go the kind of next generation that is beating Alpha Go is actually a hybrid of Uh, AI and humans they're finding that kind of putting the two together Is actually better than just one which was yeah, which is exactly what they found when that with the chests when they did the whole Watson thing too, right? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that. That's awesome In the documentary do they do Alpha Go zero or did they publish the documentary before they did that experiment? I think they I think the documentary was out first And do you know the story of Alpha Go zero? No Okay, so it's it's double of like fascinating because the Alpha Go story is really cool all by itself and To train Alpha Go what they do what you normally do for neural networks Which is you show it all the best games that have ever been played and because go is an ancient game and they've recorded Who did what move just like chest but much older because they have all these games. They can feed it a bunch of stuff That's how they trained it up to play lisi doll And so the the documentary is about the the battle between you know Alpha Go and the neural networks team at that deep mind, which is google and lisi doll and the rest of the Go community of the world and from that they learned that that the game starts to invent moves And at one point there's a there's a scene Uh in one of the games where the person who's putting down the stones for Alpha Go Is about to put the stone down where he thinks the stone's supposed to go and the move is completely different And like everybody sort of does a double take and the stone goes over here not over here And that's like a creative leap by Alpha Go, right? So Alpha Go zero Doesn't do what you normally do they don't train it up on games what they do is they just give it the rules of Go And they let it play itself They basically have copies of Alpha Go zero running against each other And it starts not knowing anything except the basic rules of Go and it starts making all the mistakes And then they watch it learn and basically basically it gets as good as Alpha Go After 48 hours or less Wow with with no examples of great games from before Then it cruises on past that and where it levels out is way above everybody's capacity And Go scholars are now studying The moves that Alpha Go zero invented Because they're so different from the tradition of Go and and anything that has this longer tradition has like Expectations around what you do in this sort of situation When are you in danger? When are you not and what you just said about it doesn't care whether you win by a little or a lot It's super interesting right because if if the only if the function you're aiming for is merely victory And you win always by one, but you always win That's pretty valid and it has very different implications for the competitive environment all that kind of stuff So that's super interesting And what I didn't know was that there and this is I guess an obvious next step In chess once deep blue beat Kasparov you got this thing called freestyle chess Which is teams with machines competing against each other and that's turned out to be a really interesting fun creative thing I didn't realize that was happening now in Go which makes total sense as well So so that the symbiotic relationship or the complementary relationship between humans and and different kinds of machine learning Is like crazy interesting and insanely dangerous to our traditional notions of what work is who's going to have a job 30 years from now all of that Wow That's Are you hitting alpha go ish kind of kind of stuff in your work? um No, but I should be I uh, I've been pushing forward on um, this idea of a conversational metaphor for machine human Interaction um in in the large and Partly i'm doing this for some of the social reasons, which is we need to have a way to better interact With all of these bots with all of this um, you know digital digital workforce if you want to call it that um And so I've been pushing harder on uh into into the um the various the three literatures, which I've mentioned before and um And trying to pull out Well, I mean making long lists of here are the concepts that are in this category and this category in this category Everything from turn taking and So on and so forth to these amazing uh Well, what strikes me is that there are universals In this space that is to say that cross language And those are the ones that strikes me would be useful to try to incorporate as a a You know for the for the interaction an architecture for the interaction And so that's what I'm I'm I'm deep into this. I'm working with Of all things an intern at media x um, who is a script writer so um I will let let you imagine how that fits in But it does that is super interesting There's also like the world of semiotics kind of cuts in here and symbols because Everybody except my mom seems to know that that two two horrors two vertical lines means pause Right and we kind of know that Right, that's like you see you see a square. You see a triangle. You see two lines You know that this is a play of video Interface right and and everybody's gotten used to it except of course mom But that factors in here as well because it becomes one of these it sort of it's a man made universal That now fits into that little language interplay and is visual not auditory not textual right Right. I think I mean one of the things that I'll just put throw out one idea that Has really struck me is that in In conversation in terms of the It's been discovered that um every 84 seconds we say um or oh We've been to discount these things and it turns out They're very they're they're part of moving the conversation forward and signaling various things just like other things so those kinds of uh repair mechanisms Are something that I think is a concept we might want to figure out somebody please Figure out how it is that really when was the last time you felt like saying to a chatbot what? You know And they've been discarded in the formal linguistics literature And now that the and I've mentioned this before the chansuke hegemony is Falling apart. Um, all these people are coming out of the woodworks with woodwork with pretty sophisticated understandings of the Structure of a real conversation in everyday life. Oh, it's super interesting. I recently um was listening to Spanish speaking people giving talks presentations through zoom in English Their English is very good, but there's a Spanish habit where it's like Yeah, like it fills every gap and there's these very long As if they're holding the space with the air so you won't they are they're holding the space and You know a charitable interpretation is that um, they want you to know that they're in control that they're they're not It's not cognitive Turbulence and is it because In Spanish culture the other person is more likely to jump in and take over the conversation and interrupt If you're not making a sound it fills the space You know that would go further than I think the research has gone, but that's the kind of thing one would want to know I think what we do know is this The uh-huh are pretty Pretty universal. I mean every language has them has some device for for doing that This also Sorry, we should go ahead. Yeah, sorry the Spanish term Osea is a filler There's like uh, there's like two or four actually in addition to the the long off, you know, there's there's actually you know, kind of Little phrases that are just meant to kind of again hold the hold the space without Giving it up and the other thing in Spanish too. Um Is a long a long vowel? I think this is actually it's in even in English The long vowel as a way to kind of stretch out a thought Is this kind of an indicator of lower education? So so you you want to somewhat sophisticated by stretching out a long vowel It's it's kind of something that's considered, you know, somebody from the countryside Typical if you want to carry them that's one of the things that you add Yeah, that's fascinating. So it's it is there's that there's another whole line of that opens up is uh We are ready to respond Those of you who are familiar with system what condiments work in the thinking blast and slow we are That we are ready to respond within 200 milliseconds Which is about the time it takes to blink your eye and so, um Some of these things help us gauge Whether a response is fast on time late or unlikely to arrive at all And I think those The that the longer that is this opens up the whole an inference chain on the part of Of this figure now. I want to be understood. It's not saying we should make sure that all of our chatbots respond in 200 milliseconds But rather that um, if we don't If that that expectation is universal to the extent that these things become conversational What's interesting also is that As you're speaking each of us is composing whether or not to interrupt and what we think about it And we're like the reason for a really short delay between when we're ready to respond Is that we're pre-composing as if we're not paying full attention and actually present and absorbing what you're saying We're busy composing our reply as you talk And a bot might have to like wait until you hit enter Right, unless it's watching like google watches searches in your browser And is busy with ajax basically like absorbing and trying to respond as you begin to type Which is I think quite quite a clever use of of technology right, right So the question is if you had a conversational Well And you heard it here first conversational infrastructure to to the architecture then Then I don't know You can see it emerging. Actually if you look at microsoft's If you look at microsoft's What's it called their bot their bot constructor whatever that framework the framework, right? You can see that they've got they've got all kinds of things hooked together, right? Um, and if those are conversing all of those things are conversing with each other It's not just me and you and it's not just me and and something else If those things are conversing with each other Um, it would be interesting to see what the hookup looks like and whether and what the timing is on Timing is one thing whether you can repair something like if the two of them are in conflict You know, we interrupt each other And or we say it later or whatever, but we notice And say is that you know, is that true? Well, one of the things We heard a presentation from a woman at ibm research that was doing visual Interpretation of facial expression and And is anybody aware of a bot that uses both? Auditory and visual cues to improve that interaction I mean, we do Yeah, but we're not bots are we? Not yet Not yet, but it seems you know one of the things you learn in speech school is that 80 percent of that What you communicate is through a body language and facial expression and not the words not the text This has been known for a long time, but it's not The part of the thing is that the people who know about what you're talking about and the people who know about The structure of conversation don't I mean, they're so far apart Their skills and their knowledge in there, you know, I mean, it's it's going to take a while But I wouldn't be surprised that it's an obvious thing to try Yeah There's a project I I saw demoed that showed up at the institute for the future some time ago Jamei wouldn't remember who it is. I'm trying to find her in my brain It's we us we me something like that and it basically watches a two-person video call And it coaches each participant by looking at video at facial cues by looking at turn taking who to wait the most time By looking at the pitch and intonation Sort of the structure the the auditory signature of sentences and a bunch of other stuff And it might come back to you and say hey, like I'm it won't speak to you this way, but hey, you're hogging the conversation. You should speak less It seems like you're not being very assertive It can begin to infer things like that. I don't know how good it is at this but it's trying to do that and But but the question is when somebody does that are they basing it on On their assumptions about how things should go like we think we should take out each You know, we'll tell you to take up the ums and the hoes. Well You know they're there for a reason. Exactly. I was also going to add a tiny another tiny Speech thing I've noticed is that in some places It's expected that when you're in a two-person conversation The other person is acknowledging periodically they're punctuating with uh-huh. Yeah, I get it. Uh-huh. It's called um Back chatter The back channeling. Yeah back. I've heard it is active listening Yeah, but in other cultures if you interrupt at all that ain't good You should just be mute until the person is done talking and then it's turned the time It's how long Right. It's how long you wait Because and the the signals are very well. I've said this before and probably in this group when Yeah, well, you know what the secret to good to good humor is, right? Timing That pause But timing is completely culturally dependent and even reversed or right the it's it's not a matter of the shift of duration but complete Rhythms, etc This this gets quite I mean Susan you said what are we what are we coaching towards and what are we assuming? For me, there's the the next step is and what if we're actually looking at something like pair programming That is we're looking at people who are actually Elbow to elbow working together. Yeah, even if they're sitting opposite each other in a zoom environment Um and what if that's happening at a greater scale than two and what if that's et cetera and does any of this in in these that that we've been summoning even Do anything except obscure at that context I think there are things we can we can do I mean one of the things is that all the things that we are bringing up because I have a feel for this literature It is known. I mean people study this it's already it's already there pieces of it out there that are understood And one of the things that I'm trying to call attention to is Because if you look at the if you look at the conversational maxims that are being used It's as if nobody ever learned anything You know I mean Yeah, precisely it's because there's a new context to look at this Within like all of a sudden this is interesting because we can put it into the context of yes But it should be it should be it should be our reaction. I'm getting old now, aren't I it should be our reaction To say somebody must have thought of this. Hold on. I'm going to go to the card catalog right now and find out Let me phone the librarian. That's right Let me call our research assistant Yes All those things that we don't have anymore how it used to happen, right Now if we had a really smart bot So let's pretend that we had a listener bot that was watching our chat and listening to our audio That was then making really clever suggestions about existing research I mean it knew how to go data mine for research And then maybe a human was filtering what the bot is suggesting and putting the most relevant things into the conversation so that So that we don't get the whole the whole flotilla of trash But we actually get some really good results and then we could go back and and explore what was found during the conversation That's seen germane as we went that would be pretty useful. I'd like that And I mean that kind of the whole idea of not just cultural but actually personal style, so there's some people who you know I think I interrupt more than I should but it's just my way I have a you know something bubbled my head and I want to get it out before I forget it There's other people who Just need like a piece of silence to kind of process something and they want to think deeply and then they come back Well, they have the bot kind of learn and know that it should be interrupting me all the time That there's somebody else that it should not uh, if there's a long pause They shouldn't be saying are you still there that you just know So that the bot actually kind of learns the style and and can be more effective with each individual understanding what their You know their communication style is not just culturally but even within a culture And then just add a layer on that The context of the conversation matters a lot So for example in a negotiation Silence is extremely powerful and it's very different from silence when you're just waiting for somebody to understand something In an explanation, right? But in negotiations that silence will sometimes cause the other party to continue putting things on the table that they Didn't mean to give away because they're like, oh, they're they're they're about to walk through the situation. Oh my god Yeah, well and look look at what's happening now. Um You know, I I'd said something my voice, you know, and it interrupted the flow Of what jerry was trying to say whereas in conversation It wouldn't but I think it interrupted because my face flashed on the screen And also, uh, I mean you talked about the 200 millisecond delay My first summer job was at satellite business systems in mclean virginia and like in their system test facility Where I learned how we chop up audio send it up to a satellite bounce it back down to an earth station Get that into somebody's ear and reassemble it quickly enough that we're not Noticeably disturbed by the delay and I was like what it's happening. What? And and so a piece of what's happening to us here is that we're being mediated by zoom Which is pretty good at that but not perfect at that So I find I find in a room with live humans One of my skills is interrupting and waiting for the pause and in the breath making a little funny comment or whatever It's one of the things I do pretty well I find that that's sort of superpower weakened considerably in a video call I find that that that's hard. So I wind up sort of Doing something in the chat, which is why I like zoom chat living over here So I'll make side comments there or whatever but or or I teach everybody the hand signals And then it's really fun in the zoom brady bunch or whatever view to see a bunch of people You know doing this or that over time as that behavior is contagious And and that's just sort of multimodal many many channels many bands working together, which I like a lot I I think zoom I recently was part of a journey of a number of people who were using zoom steadily together Over a few weeks for the first time and this combination and I've been a zoom observer and fans since I think the first year They were on the market, right this thing of the chat on the right what they call split view or something and then the Brady bunch view And being able to with your right hand click directly on a person or chat with the whole room and use hand signals Hand signals are important to get a sense of I think it gets pretty close to feeling like a social system Yeah, rather than a technology and I think one of the reasons why all this research is not relevant mixing susan and kelly's Great words is because it's so dominated by information theory And really all of this is about interaction between humans Which of course is what work Is is and is more and more becoming if humans are involved in work at all, right? um, which requires that Uh, which is in the realm of social system and then furthermore as I've been I've been swimming around in various domains as researching this idea of grammar of productivity so Grammar as it turns out is viewed by the socio linguist is something that Changes all the time And between speak not just speakers of a language are at the kind of public sphere level But in the course of a relationship It's that thing that is being negotiated and shifting as the character and content and context and media of the Interaction shift so um So just putting that next dimension a variability in Um, and then I was going to throw one more thought in Uh, which do we do we want to design that variability in or do we I mean I'm I'm sort of saying look We've got these universals. That's interesting I get really um, I mean we could say I'm I'm happy for someone to show me universals that really work universally But I I don't think that that's been the case in a lot of this Communication literature. It's simply It's just starting to come because yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so In lack of that, but but I think perhaps we do because there's the other concept I want to throw in here is from Uh, the communications domains, which are one of the places where a lot of the stuff is buried in different ways And in chromium mix in particular, which is the idea of a temporal commons And I think rex is a good idea, right? We manage when when by virtue of being in some social formation together in some project in some conversation, right? One of the things we have is a commons in time how we use time, etc I don't think anybody's written. There is a bunch of stuff written about the hegemony of Industrial culture over rules for the temporal Commons, but not really gone before that And so there's room here to bring everything that we kind of know about commons which shifts as In a sense the work being done in the common shifts. And so to me that that is If not above it's at the same level as universals. It's the specifics You know what we're growing on the commons how we're living here. What's going on, etc Susan your connections breaking up a little bit on us. Can you repeat the last thing you said, Susan? I was I was just going to say that I think I think the And In which the actual style has been co-constructed and we have learned sort of except for this How to behave this is the universal sign for the chicken dance And this is talk talk We should invent a whole new system of hand signs for videoconferencing and propagate them and make them really silly Oh, no You know, I I'm squaring you And there's always I'm gonna crush you If anybody could do this Jerry Yes, Jerry At least we found a thing that's worthwhile for humanity to work on together. I like that Mikulski speak. Oh, yeah Yeah, I could go wild with that. Yes. Um I don't know, but it's even I mean gesture is a piece of it, but it's also It's it's actually what to do with your face On zoom right video. Yeah, it's a little bit like people who don't know what to do with their hands when they're standing in a crowd Here's like And and and sometimes that look that you get when you're looking at your screen is that is is While you're in zoom is exactly what is expected and desired by the other person because you're engaging in the whatever that is People sell the problem by doing this I didn't see that I just turned my camera way up. Yeah I was gonna say and you just discovered that this is not we yeah, it's the new thought, huh? Uh-huh But those things those those kind. Yes, never mind. I'm not gonna go back Greg what was the article was it patrick linconi and it was the whole like what's my face? What was that whole? Yeah, um, right. It's the face that we make. Um There's a face we make that isn't really helpful or That's negative I mean, I'll find it. That was a pretty good one Well, you know there's this idea of I put in the chat there a thought around universal criteria for adaptability. So one of the things we've been talking a lot about is what somebody mentioned earlier is that You know using this technology to complement human capability And some of the interesting implications of that and that how dynamic it has to be In terms of being adaptable to different preferences and different styles and And being really helpful to the point to that teetering edge of creepiness Because once you flip over that edge um You know, it takes a long time to recover the level of trust um That's needed in order to really become adaptive at an individual level So we talk about we talk a lot about this what we call the know me factor, which is what enables um us to be Uh adaptive or you know relating in a way that's others find acceptable or helpful Um, and that varies by individual pretty pretty dramatically um And so how do we how do we leverage this technology to reflect that level of adaptivity? That pushes the boundaries, but doesn't cross the boundary of creepiness And there's the in the world of avatars and light and bare senility and lifelike representations There's something known as the uncanny valley Which is the place at which the thing has gotten to look real enough that it might be mistaken for human But not real enough so that it's like in this really creepy mode and you kind of don't want to associate with it It's a little bit like black mirror episodes for me Like they feel too much like something that could happen next week So I had to stop watching black mirrors like nope. Nope. I see this coming. It's too close to reality Can't go there Yeah, I love the uncanny valley of help. I think that's hilarious I mean and very true because you know, why did you know that about me? How did you know if you're if you're not being really explicit about kind of the information that you have and And the fact that you have are now assuming this as a preference if then someone engages with me in a way that I Was not expecting that is absolutely the uncanny valley of help And and so I talk a lot about stock or serve And I you know talk to companies and I say hey mostly you're stalking people you're busy hoovering up their data You're shocking them. You're tracking them across websites with you know horizontal tracking and what's it called Something retargeting there's a whole industry for retargeting all that kind of stuff is pretty creepy And we're talking about different levels of creepy now Depending on what you can infer From expression and from a lot of more fine-grained things than did I like something on facebook? And then being of service Is the opposite to me and also requires remembering something about me So I you know in order to be of good service you actually need to kind of understand me my patterns my rhythms And you need to have permission from me To be in that kind of relationship It's a high trust to work well And it needs to be a high trust well informed back and forth thing And I think that that nobody's making that distinction that mostly we're in the stock or economy And hey, let's just go for it. And if we hit trouble down the road, that's too bad. Everybody else is doing it So we kind of have to follow follow anyway Look one of those pauses. I like that. I like the stock or economy. You can write that There's actually a bunch of writing already on the stock or economy and on surveillance capitalism So if you google either term you'll find uh Some people have already gone there Yeah, I've got convenience capitalism. Yeah I'm I'm anxiously awaiting uh Shoshona Zuboff's new book Hmm. What's the title? Well, I think she changed the title. I thought it was um master or slave Right. Um, we looked it up recently. Kelly. Do you remember what? No, I'm looking there now She just does some amazing uh work The age of surveillance capitalism the fight for a human future and the new frontier of power So what are we going to do to get the attention of the people instead of ourselves although this is lovely Of people who who could do something about Bringing these kinds of ideas forward Or maybe we just think we're doing it I mean it's kind of combating the stock or economy that is the biggest force out there now is the european commission You know, they they do well battling monopolies when they're on formed on this side of of the atlantic but So, so I mean they're going to continue coming up with regulations that are It'll be the increase in this difficult for um, it So a kind of valley tech companies to uh, kind of go a dual path and they'll have to kind of conform to the standards of the european union across across the world, so I mean, I'm not a big believer in the power of the european commission, but in just one area The privacy where they're pretty strong And they wield a big stick because they cover such a large part of the economy And I think because these these values are really deeply ingrained in Leaving cultures in in your You know, germany's divided history being And before right um, a really strong Foundation partly also, um consumerism eight hour brains first And and if you're a consumer, you don't give a crap about who has your info and whatever They're just going to target you with stuff you want to buy them better And more of and whatever or you've given up on the fight or something like that so and then All of our legislators are predisposed to do business friendly things anyway So so the whole fight for data privacy and rights of the individual loses here much more easily than it does in europe I don't have a good idea other than watching china do social credit But across the rest of asia, I don't have a good idea of how these things fall there I'm curious because that's a lot of humans And and I don't know about privacy, you know legislation there and And approaches and and crises and what's happening. So Apparently none of us does me I mean, that's my like minimal It was I remember this is ancient history now, but I remember Um, I was surprised at how quickly indonesia picked up use of social software, I mean they were in some ways kind of quicker adopters and disseminators of facebook even then in the us And then again, this kind of a small example, but um In uh, me and mar they they don't talk about being on the internet You ask people, you know, do you have access to the internet? I'll say no and then They'll say but I do have facebook Because facebook, you know subsidizes access For people's accounts, they don't have to pay for the internet access as long as they only remain on facebook Wow yeah That's a that that puts a whole new spin on all the fake news and all the Bots and all the oh my god Well, one of the things we we're trying to do with it. So Kelly and I both work for a non-profit industry association that deals with a lot of high tech companies All of them are global But most of them the majority of them based in the u.s Eric sends out a stock home and a few international ones, but that are more international than others. Maybe But one of the things we keep harping on to try and drive I guess how companies approach Leveraging these emerging capabilities Is the brand promise which I think No companies haven't have mission statements and they have values and But most of our members the people that we work with don't really have an explicit brand promise So brand promise we've defined as What you want your customers to say about you when you're not in the room? That's what your customers say to each other And so it's things like they're fun to deal with they're available. They're approachable. They're intelligent. They're they have my best interests and They're trust trustworthy And when you have an explicit brand promise Then That really becomes a foundation for how you design those those points of engagement Because you want every interaction to reinforce that brand promise And if that really becomes part of the DNA of the company Then the likelihood that they're going to do things that are really in the interest of the people they serve Is greatly increased. I think And so that's you know the question of what are we going to do about this? I think we've been talking a lot with the members about are you designing your you know your machine learning and your cognitive computing and your Um All these emerging Automation capabilities to really reinforce your brand promise And I think that's a nice unimportant actually check on Are you doing these things just to improve your own efficiency? Or is it actually serving the interests of your customers and actually reinforcing your brand promise? So in my mind that's kind of formed if we can get people to really Buy into or fill the brand promise is important and have one that's explicit It will influence decision-making on how you design those points of interaction So that's my hope for what we're doing what we can do That's lovely and and I think um in some sense getting being clearer about intentions As companies is a big deal And I think I think a lot of the things we're sort of talking about now have something to do with intentions or intent If kevin clarker on the call he'd be all over that as well um and And that's you know shoshona's um I might not get this exactly right, but she talks about the purpose of businesses to enable us as individuals to live our lives the way we choose Wouldn't that be nice? And that's a pretty strong intent That's actually quite different from The reality of most businesses today Can you read that again? So that's a great good question before we move too far on So you just you were talking about the points of interaction and designing the those things and Do you think that um Can you design do everything good about what it is? I mean to me it's the interaction that's interesting Um, not just the the endpoints. Can you say something about what it would be to or not? Maybe it's not possible design interaction Well, we're seeing um, I think a lot of progress using journey mapping um, where so you're actually In in considerable amount of detail map out the points of interaction along the customer journey from awareness to purchase to install to use to renewal And those journey maps actually help you visualize from the customer's point of view um those points of interaction And which ones are most critical and which ones, you know, where's your where's your biggest point of departure in on that customer journey? um, and why and understanding those really helps Companies improve the process their policies um, the way they interact Uh to try and improve the customer experience and productivity concept for you Susan So I think the only thing I didn't hear you say although I was typing in the chat what you're talking was um, sort of Touching on the co-creation of value and the fact that so many things that we are selling require people to Interact with it in order to Generate any value right you have to the consumer has to unlock the value of whatever it is we're um Peddling and therefore we the really the only way we can do that is it is to design with with the consumer In any sustainable way, right, but let's just so there's but there's a gap isn't there between Designing with the consumer which participatory design for lack of a better term and the co-creation of value at the point of view Absolutely, but I think you you make that gap smaller If you start with the with the person who'd like to realize the value first. Yeah, but I there is this I wish we had better Co-creation of value detectors Oh, we've been talking about customer presence indicator for a company that says senator To what degree are your customers involved in designing process policy? product feature functionality and I to me this This is a great frontier. It's Removing the design process from a private lab that has no customer presence To an environment where customer presence is very very high Um, so some kind of press customer presence indicator would be a great measure of company's success in in really embracing the co-creation concept And that's a great point Kelly that comp complements the journey mapping so one one area that's kind of interesting to look at is In the book piercing kind of look at the creation of platforms. So platforms is a place where Um, you have this kind of early dance where you've got to build up enough people on the platform to have the critical mass to be able to actually Have matching between the you know the service and the customer And you know, there's this kind of early time when you've been over backwards to meet the needs of your your users and as you as the platform becomes more successful then I'd be you know, the floor is managing the platform has kind of You know a little more they they become more dictatorial over the changes. You know, you see look at Airbnb or Uber or a lot of the platform But since they are they have to be created publicly. I mean they're dependent on You know the customer is there from day one but you see this kind of dance between You know who has the power and and and if you if you really fully don't have the Kind of co-creation of value the platform is going to go away but In that book it's She has a great job of uh robin. Um, there's a great job of kind of laying that out and she's very thoughtful about it and actually Um, you know talks about kind of works and all about how how that goes Well, I think the the agile The embracing of the agile concepts and development organizations and writing stories That are written from the point of view of the customer, but but not often written by customers So it seems to me it's a step in that direction of engaging customers in the development process Or at least trying to reflect their interests through stories Um, and maybe there's some that actually have customers write the stories I have you know some we're always encouraging our members to do journey mapping with customers in the room Not a journey map any absence of customers and then sharing it with them afterwards because um The customer will come up with all kinds of interesting things that the company won't Um, the company, how are they responding to To all of that information about what the customers are because a lot of people will throw our hands in despair Yeah, well, it's challenging. Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's all it's gonna say with Yeah, so the it really requires I think an enlightened executive team that is willing to be vulnerable Um And and which in turn helps build trust right vulnerability and and trust are kind of hand-in-hand I think and and uh a lot of companies still aren't I would say, you know, we There are some we have some groups we work with have enlightened executives who understand that and um Are willing to take the risk of Engaging customers in a very rich way and others are still very hesitant to do that. So I think it's emerging. I feel like we're moving in the direction of of a stronger level of engagement I I have um A few things to lab in here So one is as we were just speaking now about customer journey and customers in the room I was transported to Probably the best customer co-design Experience I've ever witnessed which was there was a brief moment in time Where a very cool pharmaceutical company and there was such a thing Inveined this incredible gathering Shortly thereafter the ceo got replaced and blah blah blah, but anyway, um, and they were Their premise had long been beyond the pill, right? They created That that's where they were focused and so this group had strategy people and marketing people and Sort of Madison Avenue people and Silicon Valley people half the room The other half was the brand team As the days unfolded it turned out that Various people in the room had various relationships to the disease or condition That this pill was about And some of them included being parents of People with this, right? So the I never figured out how intentional Um, all of this was but it felt like if you got to a certain level of of Um, multiple but multivariate balancing in this group the rest took care of itself in any way I remember that the issue of the customer journey It's like all of a sudden so some of us were there Discovering that we were also kind of customers and it's like well, let's see what to as a customer What do I want? What is my journey, right? And then realizing it's not really as a customer It's first as a purchaser And then it's as a bit right. So there's a whole which Is all very far from Jerry's point about being people and Shoshana's point about You know letting me do what I want to do in my life Because most of those conversations at some point even when the customer is Most creatively and most deeply in the room, right that customer is figuring out What roles they play with respect to this Conversation and Jerry you're your deepest deepest point. We are we are not fundamentally consumers, right? And we're not fundamentally customers either exactly exactly, right? And there is so for me there is like a genuine place where we we are purchasers, right? I like to think I'm less and less of a purchaser, right? But that whole thing there's a genuine point of purchasing and so what about this, you know, 98% of life That's about living as a person right doing business of life as I've been calling it. So I think recently looking back over the Mind and minding work over the last it's getting to be almost a decade But the product thinking that Jerry wasn't involved in some Um About five years ago about Which among other things had a moment of shifting Shifting the conversation. I remember uh doc's intention economy Arrived in an amazon box at my doorstep in that way that happens where you have no wet election of buying the book It's just there Right in the middle of this of this design exercise and The key moment was we talked to somebody mentioned it earlier about giving you get out of the valley of creepiness or the Hall of creepiness By having given permission So what is this whole thing now that we're now that we're wise to just how Kidnapped our our minds are Now, what if the whole thing shifts? To Hey I'll invite you into my mind. I'll give you a little piece of my attention Provided you show me that you got something interesting to do with me Right in this In this actual technical space, right? And oh by the way, it's it's a collaborative space It's actually the same kind of a space In which I sit with my rex crowd or my Co-designer or co-founders or etc. Anyway, I'm I had this Kind of moment the other day. These are all I'm sure everybody on this call Values these when you go. Oh my god, something I've been thinking for five years Actually Somebody else is thinking of it. No, it might be now. It might be right Yeah, anyway, so Um, just two two things triggered by what you're saying. I see one one is at one point in my checkered human journey I was a facilitator for a workshop around a topical pain relieving gel And as an icebreaker upfront, I had everybody Imagine like what is your sport? What is your hobby? What is your thing? And then imagine an injury in that thing And then I passed around some blue painters tape just a little I gave everybody a Two-inch strip of tape and I had them put it on where the injury happened and then enact it So I walked around the room said what is your injury? Where is it? Oh, that must really hurt and then like like ah, whatever and and merely as a Totally superficial ploy to get people to start empathizing with somebody who's in pain And but and occasionally during the meeting I refer back to that pain I'd be like, you know, how's your elbow or or whatever just trying to sort of it's my shoulder Bring back the memory of it. So So that that just sort of was a a simple facilitation ploy to try to bring up What happened naturally in the meeting you were describing because everybody was connected to the to the situation, right? And then secondly the thing you just described about you know permission to come into my mind I had a whole riff I called becoming a trusted ally And it's an aspirational thing and I think it's the high point in a marketplace And the example I give to explain becoming a trusted ally is almost a rhetorical example I ask people so do you tell your doctor your nurses your health insurance company your whole healthcare nexus Do you tell them everything about your health and well-being in mental state? I don't because the system is designed to end badly if you actually were to do that, right? Then I asked them a second question which is what if you could What if they were your trusted ally and what if You could rely on them to be pulling on the rope in the same direction as you are Short of you've decided you're going to like kill the principal at school and they need to call in like to report you but Short of that that they were actually busy doing things for you and that they could then bring you behind the curtain For the tools they have and the knowledge they have and you could help them design the next set of services, right? so so I think this is actually a like a About high high ground in a marketplace because once you found your trusted ally for a particular domain Whether it's your finances your health and well-being and mental well-being Or something else you're not going to leave them. Why would you leave them unless they gouge you or betray your trust? Do you're you're their customer or they're you're in that relationship for life? right um and um That's a grand promise right Much more than a brand promise to me in a sense Well, what it feels like much more than a brand promise to me because that's that was what I was trying to say before the Book cover arrived. That's that was the thought in my mind is like whoa, right? That's the ultimate, right? um as you put at high point in the market and yes That would I mean if a brand promise were to be taken really earnestly and deeply it could become that And and and if people sort of took it to heart and if it was an authentic thing in the world it could make them a trusted ally um But the piece of the trusted ally thing i'm i'm wrestling with is It's the kind of idea that everybody's going to claim to do and be So how do you filter that? How do you get to the point where Some are trustworthy some are not how do you label it market? Recognize it. How do people see this when it shows up? It's a little bit like organic which originally was a term that meant that things are actually grown organically And over time got diluted by the people who had access to regulators So that lots of things that weren't really very organic got to be labeled organic or natural or what or what have you So so how do you preserve in some weird way the purity of the notion of trusted ally? Uh so that it becomes a sharper distinction and drives companies to better behavior That's a big open question for me Well, I think maybe one of the I mean the way you do that as a matter of marketing or market development is that you Define and then deliver into practice A set of attributes or criteria that become accepted as that right? And then if you're in technology Right, you have those levers to pull about creating so what if uh micro credential blockchain distributed id architectures, right are Our Criterion one for right if you're not built on this Trustable Tread right on this different architecture and and so forth. So Jerry. Why were you smiling and I realized we're hugging the conversation. No, not at all I was smiling in the middle because I asked susan what the title of the book that she had shown was and kelly was like Only because susan sent it to me so they copied and pasted I was like wow you read that fast I Had to go out again off the shelf Misinterpretation of signal. I thought you were like, all right. Now I'll go back to feeling more normal Not so appreciated by jerry that he grinned. Oh, sorry Yeah, the extensibility of or the or the scalability of trust I think probably you have talked about before jerry, right because I'm thinking like, oh, right That's the kind of the private relationship that I have built with my doctor over To one years now and therefore if someone new goes to her and says You know, this is this is what I do Like can you get to that level without investing the time or the like? How do you where's the I mean, I think we have talked about this. Where's the shortcut? Like I think there are can be express lanes where you share much more more quickly I don't think it takes 20 years to get to the point of intimacy of and relationship But But they're not easy shortcuts. I mean It's interesting. Um Richard and Todd, how does how do all these topics cut into your worlds? I mean for me, I've you know, the You know the work that I'm doing is a lot within the institution and the will bank and imf So there There's there's less of the it's more kind of the internal working and a lot of them they have a kind of They're parallel there as well. So if you're trying to Institute something new there's the the question of You know, is it worth my time Is this going to continue and a lot of that has to do with the relationship between the whoever's bringing instituting it in the level of Trust that the things that they've brought in the past have gotten traction or have been positive So Like I mean just taking the world bank as an example has so many interesting trust boundaries to deal with like One I grew up in South America one of them being like i'm from the world bank I'm here to help and plenty of countries saying no, you're not You know, we know what you did last time like you just said right But another one also is within the world bank historically They may have fixed this But the field officers were sort of seen as the cowboys who were out in the field who had like the authority and The privilege and the home office people were sort of second class citizens And there was like friction within the world bank historically forever And I don't know if that still exists, but but like when you start peeling back who trusts whom and why not It gets super interesting and all these historic Complaints kind of show up pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah, and then there's you know, yeah Trust is a proposition You know, I trust so and so for this Yeah, and and trust is also I find Uh bounded in domains. So There's there's and I said this in my pdf talk I said, uh, I would trust david reed with my vote by proxy on any telecom policy issue He cared to to rule about but I you know, wouldn't trust him with a three-month-old Um, because I'm not sure he'd pay attention like, you know, that's three month old alive He might be a great dad. I have no idea I just don't know that realm of his life So so these things that these things are very much bounded by by the parts of things that we understand And by context, yeah Yeah And over time you learn things over time trust trust is also very it's like compound interest. It's it's very temporal Um, and you learn about performance over time Todd did you want to throw anything in about? About your world and these issues I'm doing a lot of co-thinking with esti on this minding. Um Can you speak up or get closer to the mic? Is that better? Yeah I'm doing a lot of co-thinking with esti on on the issue of minding um And I I'm waiting for a turning point and where technology Uh Is in service to us because it still feels like Um Mostly everything that's being built and I'm getting I I don't know what's going on with the startup world, but I'm getting pitches Startup related pitches probably three or four times a week From somebody who wants some attention from somebody who wants some money from somebody who wants Uh Up to partner and these aren't even sales Um pitches these are are are just companies looking for Uh a road in um And so when I look at that and when I look what's happening on angel list Um, or when I browse crunch base Uh Most of the technology is not really Created to serve Um Everyone's looking for a niche that still feels like it's a Uh minor form of extortion So it's it's something that both it excites me and baffles me as to what is the How does that change and when does that change? Um And how how can I play a part in that? Agreed There's a whole I mean one of the big background issues here is we need a mind shift of some sort and there's plenty of people writing eloquent Eloquent pieces straight from the heart about how you know, if only everybody paid more attention or minded the commons or learned about our interdependencies or or or or things would be a lot better and I agree with the claim I just think that the claim mostly falls on deaf ears that the people who are busy nodding vigorously when they read that Pros are already on board and we're not convinced And somehow the people who aren't engaged in that process are not getting it and not being turned by that argument and one of the questions I have is What what what will engage the the very large number of humans on earth who I've either given up hope or are actively and intentionally Tipping at the systems because it's fun and it works better and they have a lot better time And they find allies on the far side of you know of caring or whatever else or for Caring enough to break the system is also a form of caring. That's weird, but I think that's happening a lot right now Caring enough caring enough to take big risks with the system because the system isn't working for everybody That's that's I think hot right now But it's being hijacked by a lot of different Different groups that we're we're at one of those moments historically where Where the social contract is up for renegotiation. Nobody's quite sure what works best There's a drift right word politically across the across the globe A whole bunch of other, you know, and then there's a there's a drift toward ecological disaster that's being intentionally ignored by a lot of a lot of people and players which is which is Strange. I mean I saw Al Gore present once and the first sentence out of his mouth was I'm trying to figure out why I can't seem to convince conservative people and business people That climate change is one of their biggest business opportunities ever that this is like electrification That so much needs to be build made sold to fix this problem that they should just leap right in They're going to make a bucket of money. Why can't I convince people that that's true? And so I think there's Sorry Richard go ahead the white you know, they just you remember white 2k. I mean that was sure they need to somehow package it like white 2k Well, but white 2k is an argument against climate change for me. It's like You know, isn't white 2k a way of dismissing white climate change? Well, I mean so there were no but you look at the examples of the overspending in preparation of white 2k led to kind of A lot of that Yeah, so Let's a lot of what led to positive there were positive externalities to that. Yeah Right if the argument is that all that sort of prep kind of led to a non-event if we could do that this time That would be really great, right? Yeah, right Why but it's that that is hard to prove because some people say that all the prep was for not the thing Wasn't going to really happen anyway. There's no they can't be They can't believe that the prep actually worked and prevented, you know elevators from falling and airplanes from plummeting to the ground and whatever else is going to happen at white 2k So so that's why I like I'm the white 2k example for me is a little bit fraught. Sorry I think I'm just sort of I think what I'm hearing Richard say And correct me if I'm wrong is that like if we can energize people to mobilize around this thing then Then with it with the best of luck will have the same people being like that didn't work It wasn't going to be a big thing. Anyway, because we will have sorted it out So let's go to retirement homes and find the cobalt program Okay, originally and arm them with ways of fixing climate change. That is a I love this idea For those of us who chair such things why 2k lives on in millennials at least in my household By reference to the days of the week There's sundaak Mundak Seriously, and then of course the random The delightful emergence of a similar y2k conversion in other words at other times. Oh my god I've never heard that before. How did I miss that? They've been doing it for years and you know all of our sort of you know the close-ins. It's it's fabulous That's hilarious. That's brilliant. Thank you Right and there are many other such y2k I imagine once you get into it, it gets really fun. Which you will. Yeah, which you will. Yeah, I find delightful I see Todd's already ready to lay it out So kess, I agree Exactly Um any other thoughts we we're getting close to the end of our time I have to jump off at the top of the hour to to be on a different call um, but This conversation so far. Where has it taken any of us that you'd like to put a different a different thought in the mix Yeah, I was on the way to saying something about um I can't think of an action that I can take I'm asking if others could suggest What is the action that I would take today? to Affect this shift to people to technology serving people like What what would I buy? What would I use? How would I change my? I don't have an answer to that and I think that You know, it's it's in that place where you get out of the realm of Ideology and spread of ideas and you hook into something that Makes makes the makes the change Um, I can offer a couple personal observations. Um, oh, yeah, I'm getting it. I'm opening my notebook. Oh, good So so this past week in Copenhagen they did the second annual tech festival I was not there this this year, but I was there last year when we co-wrote something called the the Copenhagen letter on technology Which was a manifesto and there are many I can show you the Place in my brain where I collect manifesting and there's a lot of them But but but it was an attempt. Um, let me see Shoot, I thought I had a keyboard shortcut for it, but I don't But it was an attempt to to put into words. Hey, hey people wake up. This is what's going on Um, one of the things I've realized, but I haven't done much about is that Most programmers who are out there in businesses are being asked to violate the stock or serve line all the time every day They just don't know it So they're busy sort of engaged in a moral choice that they're unaware of So raising that awareness and and googlers are doing this a lot for google with, you know, hey google You're not going to get to go to china and and uh and compromise google values for in order to enter the chinese market We won't let you we employees So I think I think arming the people who actually do the coding With some insight and a bit of a bit of awareness of how to make the distinction And then some tools for enacting that like collecting up together Finding other people of like mind so that management can find out. Hey, wait a minute a third of our coders Are really pissed off about this and are you know going to protest or leave or do whatever? I think that would be really good um and then I think we're just beginning to understand how all this stuff plays out for humans at the whole Facebook plus Cambridge Analytica plus Russians buying ads plus election and all that that that kind of splashed it pretty big on the screen But didn't give enough depth chasing us out of cuba. Don't forget that. Yeah, there's that too So so I think one of the problems with technology is that Our there's a really long lag period between when we implement technology and it eats the world And then when we realize what the hell we did what we did and the effects it had My favorite passage on this is uh Jerry mander in about cars in in the absence of the sacred he has a whole page about When we have let the car move forward if we had known that we were going to payable for all our cities Uh, you know a prejudice pedestrians against you know cars Fight wars over the natural resources pollute our sky. Well, we have and it's a rhetorical question Because the car did what the car did and it's all who knows if it could have been We we we did stuff with the car. Well, you know There's a really interesting argument that corn is actually a human virus for its own propagation That it's a little bit like the the taxo plasmosis with with uh mice That that whatever it is that makes mice sort of Lose their fear of cats and become good victims that corn basically invaded humans And so that it could replicate itself endlessly across the earth And that it's well, that's in sapien sapien says the same thing about wheat. So yeah, okay Pick your pick your crop that sort of squished itself all over earth um So so that's one take anybody else? I have one one one thought I was going to go back to something estee that you said Which was about um, you know this whole or actually the discussion about surf Surf and uh stalker surf and stalking that one I think that if you steep yourself in service thinking for a while you become allergic to Delivery phrases like delivery service or providing service or anything else It's the value of the interaction with the thing that's co-creating value, right? and I just I just think that's a bigger fact than we're giving Room for that is if we're going to Design our tools so that we work with them And not and not just you know automate our work and not just augment although those are perfectly fine things to do But once we have tools with Technology with agency which we now have We have to find a way to interact with them in real time so that So that we can have some well involvement engagement I don't want to go as far as control, but we we we've let a lot of a lot of stuff go Agreed interesting to me how hard it feels to Talk to people in in terms of when we talk to members about you know one one way to get this done is to Actually have a conversation with the people who might be interested in purchasing this service or product or whatever it is The pushback and I feel it too, right? Like oh, we could go ask some members about how they feel about this x y z And i'm like oh, I don't want to bother the members. I don't know I don't right like this has been going on so for so long for sure So well, so the question is how do we help? Each other get over the the fear of talking to each other and where do we start on this sort of like Because because if I so this kind of goes back to Todd's startup thing too Right where in which people are pitching a bunch of things that perhaps nobody wants or needs like how how do you how do you Seed trust so that that any conversation you have about what what might you be interested in what would be interesting? Is is heard from a place of oh, you're actually interested in in serving me or being helpful to me as opposed to Oh, all you want to do is mine my ideas and then sell them for money Or all you want to do is have me tell you how to sell me more things I guess right in the in the case of talking to our companies talking to their their customers Who in many cases are their biggest fans, right? That's the whole sort of like if someone asked me that I know and like for my advice. I'm like Yes, I would love to give that to you, right? But that's not what it feels like when you have to go out and ask And I don't know what what the issue is there or it but it feels fairly universal Let me know it's sort of interesting because it strikes me that part of this is is it worth my time? You know, and if we you know, what do we do to make it? I mean, this is this goes to worth and value, right? it's the You know, you're you're sort of on the on the what's it worth? What's it worth to this person? right and and that's a different conversation than Then even the the Co-creation of value one and I think worth is both money and time. I mean, it's pretty basic There's no So one of the few great things about steep jabs was his insistence and therefore his installation in my brain at least it from like somewhere in the 80s as the customers can't tell you anything anything interesting about what they don't have, right? and right and I can't write and the only way I can Can get anywhere where that question is to start getting into the creator You know, it's in some mode of myself. Anyway, so so one of those things is to have it is to have those conversations, right? In some place that starts respecting that if I don't have it yet. I can't know it, right? And then Don't make me figure out who I am to you and what part of your purchase cycle, right in order to have this conversation Those are both, right The things that I think genuinely it's not about getting into the conversation. It's like what happens on the second sheet Of the question guide or something like right or the first conversation has to be like, what are your actual pain points? Tell me about the day and what parts suck like what can I do to make that better? Right and even that's asking someone to have analyzed it. It's so true Right, you know, I mean, yeah so and And there's some, you know, there's some gold and some magic in this notion of what's the actual service in which this product that you represent Is playing is playing some Oh, right and um I know I feel like Jerry was thinking would say that that's probably not quite the right question Well, I think that when you have the vision of what that is Right, you have something you being the proposer Both sides right um You're you're talking for real. So Jerry that day when we were that the time when we were doing stuff about health and we had people Right, I carried around your picture, right? Um when we were doing b a while ago like ways of getting into how do you How do you take care of yourself? Like and who does it with you? Which was very far away Right ended up with I think I felt like each of us walked away with and then the small groups that met some sort of some image that was help, right? Anyway, um Which I think is a service, right? I think does Susan. I think you were pointing to this when you said service Thinking on some level. Anyway, I'm going I'm taking us over time and That's okay. No, it's gotten really fascinating. I'm really sorry. I've got to actually scoot Just a brief note. Um a The a piece of our conversation here is actually really informative for this whole design from trust thing that I'm working on And I think that oh, I think my computer is freezing There we go um and I think that um Design thinking tries to get feet on the ground to listen with care and observe and have empathy But it taps out at some point in the middle of the conversation We're having and the design from trust that I'm trying to create tries to go bigger picture And see more of what somebody might want to use but then involve them in the creation of it and in the middle of that is the No, no, no, this is impossible. I couldn't want it if you built it for me But then when they have it they'd love it and like oh my god, this is in fact what I wanted to use So that little that little gap is a chasm That many good ideas fall into until the time shows up that somebody actually makes it happen and boom then it's there so That said I must I must bid my adieu until next month But I'm we're going to have some pop-up calls pop up shortly I have a couple I'll put on our schedule about design from trust Todd is going to invite us all to a couple conversations And thank you all for being here like from the depths of my tiny little heart Thanks great to see you all. Bye. Thanks guys. Bye. Bye. Bye