 Thanks so much for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii. We're honoring the 60th anniversary of the March on Washington and taking some time for a little reflection and some other thoughts on where we are, where we might be headed and how we might steer things in a healthy direction if possible. We have with us today Professor Vanilla Randall, Professor Emerita of the University of Dayton School of Law and the leading creator of the racism.org website which has an incredible collection of materials and articles and information on racism and the law and society. And I commend it highly. Tina Patterson in Germantown, Maryland, mediator, arbitrator, business consultant and background in many areas of business and law experience. And Jeff Fortnoy, one of our leading First Amendment lawyers, media lawyers, partner at Cage Shuddy. And also, if I remember right Jeff, you got a trip last year to the some of the civil rights history in the South. Yeah, I took the civil rights tour which is now a big item of tourism in Alabama. So I guess one thing has changed in 60 years. People have figured out how to make money over the civil rights movement. It's quite an intriguing and fascinating trip. And I think everyone should do it sometime in their lifetime. Go from Montgomery to Birmingham to Selma. Meet with people who actually were there. They might have been 12 years old back then and they're in their 70s now but their memories are completely lucid and it's a fascinating journey into a part of our history, some of which many of us never knew. While it was probably before Tina's time, pretty much certainly within yours and Professor Randall's in my time. Professor Randall, what are your most vivid recollections of that march and that time? What sticks with you? My recollection is just a distant sort of, I was in living in Amarillo, Texas. I was 15 years old and I was in an abusive situation. So I was not, I remember my parents talking about it. I remember people at school talking about it. I don't really remember watching anything on TV. I don't even remember if there was anything on TV. Most of my connection to the march came after I went away to college and was a young adult. So I don't know that I have, I don't have the kind of, I wasn't in that part of the South and I was too busy trying to dodge my foster mothers abuse to worry about anything but that. I just got through reading a biography of Martin Luther King, Paul 600 pages and there was extensive discussion of the march and the events leading up to the march and actually the political and other issues that divided the Black community as to whether the march was or was not a good thing. It was about the time where the more active and more aggressive Black movement was taking hold, you know, about non-violence not being the way to accomplish anything and what would the march accomplish. And there was a lot, of course, I never had a clue of the disagreements about the march in general either before or after. There was even significant disagreement as to how effective it was within the African American community as to whether it did good or not good. But, you know, as a spectacle it certainly was important and critical to those of us who really didn't have an understanding of what might be going on. And I don't know, I'll defer to others but it seemed to me that it did move things forward. If you ask me today, are we better off than we were? And I don't mean we but African American community, I don't pretend to speak for them. But it seems to me as a white male, I don't think things are much better than they were the day of the march. But I'll leave that to others to opine. So Tina, let's fast forward to 2023. Looking at it from a different perspective of one who was not a teenager back at that time or maybe even around at that time. What are your thoughts? What most sticks with you about what the march still means? You're quite generous. I actually was around, but I was under the age of five. So I have no recollection of the event itself. I'm going to take this from a two pronged approach when I think about this topic because I think Jeff touched upon a couple of aspects, which is the background and leading up to and one of the books that really brought this to the forefront for me was Donna Brazile's book Cooking with Greets. And she talks about an element that we see now and I think is important moving forward. Where were the women specifically? Where were the black women? They were not present as speakers. There was division within the community about who should speak, why they should speak. But also what was, and I'm going to say this, the dream, I have a dream versus I have a plan. And there's this confluence of war on poverty, the industrial complex and war and women's rights all taking place at the same time. So when I think about 2023, I think about for me, 2008, August 28, 2008, I was in Birmingham, Alabama doing some work on behalf of the Kellogg Foundation regarding the status of race in the US and bringing together organizations and asking them what did they see the future of race in the United States in terms of race relations and the work that had been done. And sadly, the organization said we're concerned. We're concerned because it's still dangerous for us to drive from Mississippi to Alabama. We're concerned because it's still difficult for those of us who are below the Mason-Dixon line. And folks, Mason-Dixon line is actually between Maryland and Pennsylvania. I know you guys know that, but the general public thinks it's further south. It's not. It's that, quote, north, that it's difficult. And this continues to play out. But I mentioned this day also because this is the date that a senator from the state of Illinois accepted a Democratic, the nomination from the Democratic Party to be run as a candidate. And there were people who said it'll never happen. We will never see an African American male or much less any African American serve in the highest seat in the executive branch. It happened. And so fast forward. Where are we? I still think we're still stuck on. Where's the plan? There's all these divisive and divided perspectives. I know there are some who felt like, well, the speech was intended to be a cure-all. No way. No how. Not possible. Because you've got so much strata that you're trying to address. And that dialogue, and I noted one, not a lot of media coverage. Instead, there was a certain individual who was getting more media coverage that you won't talk about today. But I'll just say four indictments anyway. That got more coverage than this movement. And the fact that it's 60 years later and doing some type of retrospective in terms of where we are. But we did see, and I saw this on social media organizations talking about this. It's not just a check-in. This is a movement and we have to carry the baton forward. I still erased the question. Where is the plan? And it's what we've seen. And I particularly think it's poignant that we've had two shootings within the days following. And they're both called hate crimes, but they're race-related. Underlying it is someone feeling that they don't have their dreams being crushed by somebody else. And their way that they're acting out is appalling. But it's also indicating that we still haven't gotten to the root of what we need to move forward. So lots of work to be done. I don't have a problem with the dream. Where I'm concerned about is what's the plan moving forward? And now that we've got these other factors coming in. I kind of agree with you on the idea of having the plan. But I think it's got to be white people that have the plan. And that's largely because they're in control of the power structure. They're in control of the government. They're in control of the wealth. They're in control of all the choices that are being made. And that being, and I'm talking about black people, and I want to center it on black people, not all people of color, which I understand and fully support, that we're all in similar oppressions. But I can speak from black people and what's happening to black people because I am black. And what I have seen, I agree with Derek Bale that there will, that racism, racial discrimination, and racial oppression will be a forever part of the United States. Because I think what I've seen is a, well, first of all, through study and experience, that there are no laws passed. There are no wealth given in which it is not controlled in and privileged given to white men. It might not be explicit, but it is done that way. And at some point, white people have to step up and say, we want to give up the privilege. We're going to stop fighting. And that means providing black privilege. That means really reparations. That means undoing all of the harm caused by slavery and segregation. And what I see is whenever there's any minute attempt to do something, there is backlash. And that what's put in place is more severe, are equally severe as what left. So we thought, well, we had a war to get rid of slavery. Really? Then why did we do 14th amendment that kept slavery? I mean, not 14th, 13th amendment that only got rid of some forms of slavery. And this is what I see continuously. Never say, yeah, we're going to get rid of all kinds of slavery. Oh, we're going to get rid of some slavery, but you can steal enslaved people if they're in prisons or have been convicted. Same thing doing Jim Crow, so right after the Civil War, and you had reconstructions, and you had, oh, okay, black people are coming out of slavery. Sit and uneducated, we need to build hospitals and schools so that we can get them well and educated. How long did that last couple of years? How so nobody wanted to pay for it? So that lack of reparations goes all the way back and then laws passed to enslaved. I don't want to, my point, I don't want to go through a history lesson. It's just that all the way through, there's been white backlash to black progress. And if white people want black people to have equal footing in wealth and education and housing and all of this other stuff, then it's going to be on them to do something to make that happen. I have no hope that that will happen in my lifetime or my grandkids like that. Well, you know, whether it's a dream or a plan, I think the reality unfortunately is that it's not going to happen. It hasn't, and what makes anybody think it's going to happen now or 10 years from now, that people's prejudices, biases, emotions are going to change. Sure, things can be done legislatively, you know, sort of a rights act and go through one after another, open up public accommodations. But actually when something is imposed on people, it creates a reaction. And so I think it just shows that unfortunately, whether it's the color of people's skin or not wanting to associate with anybody you don't think is the same as you, and I think it's worse now. I really do. I think in the last decade, whatever improvements may have been made judicially or legislatively as far as race relations, I don't think it really is shown in the interpersonal relationships among and between people. And I think, you know, the whole idea of reparations, you know, is something that sends people scurrying for the hills. Those who oppose the whole idea that, you know, why am I responsible for something my great, great grandfather may have done. But, you know, there's always hope. I think that's what the Martin Luther King philosophy was. There's always hope. There's always a dream. But I don't think that was his philosophy. That was one thing he said. His philosophy was that white liberals are never going to step up to the plate. It's the moderate white liberals. And he was getting the whole thing depressed behind the lack of his philosophy was jobs. People have dropped jobs from the whole thing that he was going on. Economic empowerment. I don't, I think he, whatever he said about a dream, that was one sentence that he had a whole philosophy. But I mean, I don't know. I just, I, I don't think the laws, I don't look at the civil rights law. The civil rights laws have never privileged black people in a way that we needed to be privileged. Why don't I say that? Because it is still legal to discriminate based on race in this country, as long as you don't do it intentionally. Black people needed you to say, we needed people to say through the law that all forms of racial discriminations are is illegal. But no, we call about intentional because white people were scared that if we make this too broad, then it'll come back on me. And when I don't intend it, so let's focus on intent. I think if we look at civil rights, we look at voting rights, you just name every area where we have used the law. And the law has been used inadequately for the protection of the interests of black people. It primary, and this is, I can't think what Derek Bale called it. I'm too old. I can't think what Derek Bale called it. But he had a specific word for it. And basically, his argument was, we're only going to get as much as white people want to give. And they don't want to give very much. And like you said, Jeff, as soon as black people, it looks like black people are getting something. Some groups of white people get angry and upset and backlash. And that's the history of black people in the United States. And I hear you. And again, I'm coming at it from a little different perspective just because of who I am. But the issue is, is not government. Government cannot change the way people think and believe. That's the problem. And it's way beyond me to try to figure out how do you change people's attitudes? You can force them to do things. And, you know, although the law may not go far enough, that's what it tried to do. And, you know, some people accept it and some people don't. But it doesn't change their beliefs. And something happens, something happens between the time a little white boy or girl and a little black boy or girl is eight or 10 years old. Something happens between then three or four. Well, maybe three or four. Okay, I'm not, you know, I can't, I'll accept that. But something happens between that and the time they're adults that that's just changed their views. And maybe it's, you know, I don't know, you know, is it the color of someone's skin makes you scared of them? Or, you know, I don't have the answer. But I don't think government, although I think government has to do what it can, it'll never solve the problem. So Tina, what needs to be part of the plan? What needs to be part of the plan is legislative overhaul. The fact that we have a civil rights act and a voting rights act that has to be, has to go before Congress every few years, we didn't have that problem with the 20th Amendment. We didn't have that problem with the 14th Amendment making an amendment. That is something that Congress can do now. And there will be some representatives from the House of Representatives that won't be re-elected again. There'll be some senators that won't be re-elected again. But that is part of the price of serving the public. And you have a choice at some point to do the right thing or do what you have proceeded to do what's right. That's one. Two, this concept of when does it happen? Oh, it happens in the household. It happens when the child is watching television, changing the narrative. Now, does that mean I'm saying big brother or big sister needs to go into every household? Absolutely not. But what I am saying is some part of that conversation that Professor Randall talked about is instead of coming to me and asking me to talk to your white friend, you talk to your friend. You talk to your friend when you're having that dinner and someone says, oh my gosh, what's Juneteenth? They're at it again. First and foremost, who is they? Secondly, explain what Juneteenth is. I'm not saying you have to buy into Juneteenth, but at least know what it is. I know who was on the Mayflower. Why not know who was on what Juneteenth is about? It's changing that narrative. It's literally, and I'm going to stick to a person who I think very highly of, Robin D'Angeli. And she talks about white fragility. We don't want to talk about it. It's literally saying to that friend, I appreciate the fact that you're crying, but I don't need your tears. I need you to be an ally when I'm sitting in the office and I deliver a statement and then someone else in the room either talks over me or takes credit for my work. Those are the things that need to happen. It's no longer saying, oh my gosh, that poor person, you know, he's really upset. It's no, it was a hate crime. This person, Dylan Roof or whoever else we want to talk about, did this because he believes you are less than and I can eliminate you without any repercussion. That means talking with some of our law enforcement and saying equal application of your intake process. When you stop me, it shouldn't be with, and I'm not saying this is all law enforcement, it should be with, let's find out what's going on versus automatically assuming I've done something wrong. Jeff, Jeffrey, I agree with you. We can't change people, but we can certainly talk to what's an acceptable standard. The fact that we constantly, oh my gosh, just shooting happened. Oh, what are we going to do? Folks, really? What we need to do is talk about, I'm sorry, go ahead, Professor Randall. No, I'm just, I don't want to set you off. I just, I just read an article, just read an article about the thousands of stops made in New York and only 5% white. The enforcement racial disparities and the enforcement of laws and the implication of laws, that's something we can do about. But I also think laws change values. Why in the hell do someone go up and stop at a stop light when there's on a road that's so straight they can see for 100 miles and no cops around because the law has embedded in them a value to obey the law. If we stop privileging whiteness in the law, then white people will stop privileging it. As long as we privilege white people in the law, they're going to privilege it. And I hear what you're saying, but the problem is that some significant percentage of white people don't think they have any privileges at all. They think the opposite. They think blacks have the privileges. And we're not talking about 5% of the country. We're talking about 35% of the country. Well, you know, right? If you pass the law saying that it's illegal to discriminate based on any color for any reason, I hear what you're saying, Jeffrey, I'm going to use a different chat. And this is something that's near and dear to me as a business owner. And sorry, Professor Randall, because I'm stuck in my crop. There's a program called the 8A program, and it was developed so that businesses that were owned by individuals from historically underrepresented groups would have an opportunity to level the playing field. The program is essentially being dismantled under the Biden administration because a federal judge has determined that race should not be affected. And what that means is for those businesses that want to get into lucrative spaces, it's not going to be that additional. Well, why are you here? What type of funding do you have? What additional hoots? And I can hear, and I've heard people say, well, this is privilege. Actually, it's not. It's intended to level the playing field. Affirmative action was intended to level the playing field. And we are now having arguments about, well, I don't want to discuss that affirmative action is no longer part of the admissions process. You should be here just because. And we know that schools in the past have used photos, they've used essays, they've looked for specific information to determine that a person shouldn't be there because of their race. And I hear what you're saying, but the reality is that's not what's going on. The fact that people still have to literally determine, and I'll accuse myself as an example, I did not want my picture on my website for the longest time, because I wanted someone to hire me because of the work that my company can provide. And I know that there are individuals who will visit the website and go, African American woman, not so certain. And I'm fairly certain that many of my colleagues in the same space have never had to have that discussion or have had to think about it. And I know members of the LBGT QIA community say, oh, I have similar, but it's usually because it's something you disclose. It's not based on you see me and you make an automatic determination. I'm not saying that's always the case, because I know there are some times when appearance makes people think a certain way. But the fact that you have to actually think about it, what marketing looks like, what the approach looks like tells me, and I think for a rational prudent person would tell them, there's still, there is still a bias. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I, and I've heard this argument, that's why I use the 8a example, because it literally is going to be a setback. I'll go as far to say between affirmative action, what's happening with economic development, 8a program and other programs, the Biden administration is going to have a tough time in 2024 courting black voters, especially those who have been paying attention to what's been happening the past six to eight months, because what it's what's happening says, what are you doing and what do you plan to do moving forward. And you have prosecuting, you have governors, and this is a state and federal government issue, prosecutors, black female prosecutors losing their job just because. So in our last minute, some closing remarks. Professor Randall, you want to start us off? Final thoughts? Well, both professional and personal. Professional, I would encourage people to learn all they can about the different racial groups in America and about black history and about how the law really affects people. And I, I would encourage them to go to racism.org as a way to do that. Personal, my son lives in, my youngest son lives in England, we're getting passports. Very enough. Jeff? Didn't we solve everything while Professor Randall was not with us? And you're keeping it from me. Yeah, we're just going to keep it from you. While you were gone for a minute and a half, we we solved all the ills of 300 years of racism in America. You know, look, I think it's a I do think one thing we don't have time to talk about it at length is education and the lack of education. I mean, I have learned so much in the twilight years of my life about things I live through that I thought I had some knowledge of to know that I had no knowledge. And we know what's happening in education, it's going in reverse. And so when you look back 60 years and say are things better? Maybe I think there's probably more black entrepreneurs now, there's probably a lot more black PhDs. The probably the average wealth of the upper class of African Americans is better than it was, you know, 60 years ago. I'm sorry. Not be so well, I mean, yeah, that's true. But yeah, never mind. Two things. One, we got to get real about educating people the truth, whether it hurts or not. And we've got to figure out at the family level, as Tina said, standing up when someone says something that you know is wrong and willing to engage people, not an argument, but at least in a discourse. And it's got to so far to go. But you know, we just have to hope for the best. And Tina, you want to wrap us up? Dialogue, not debate, murder. This did not be the first choice when you disagree. And we're all in search of the truth. But I would tell people, don't trust, but verify. Don't trust TikTok, YouTube, Nene and them, your favorite cousin who listens to a station that you're not really sure about. Verify it. Talk, read. And dare I say it? Go to the library. Get a book. You don't want to get a book? Go to Audible. But get solid information. The amount of disinformation and misinformation abounds. You don't want to do that. Talk to an elder and ask them what happened. And then go and ask somebody else. But talk. Have a real dialogue. The sound bites that you get in 240 characters. At the time is not accurate. And Jeff, you were going to say something, I'll talk. No, no, no, that doesn't matter. I think what you're saying is quite profound. You said go to the library and I was going to say, yeah, if you can find the book. This is true. So let me say this. Go to an independent bookseller. How about that? So thank you all. Kind of drawing together. We're hearing there's a common theme underneath. And I'm hearing learning has to happen on an individual level, on a community level, on a societal level. And it has to be learning together. Not in homogenous, self-reinforcing implicitly biased groups, but in truly heterogeneous groups through solid bowls of humanity. Maybe there's some hope if we can move in that direction. So when you have prominent elected officials in high positions saying that slavery for a lot of people was a good thing because it allows them to develop a trade. We've got a long way to go. A long way to go. But it's also a reminder. If you know better, remember in November, go vote. Expecting somebody else to carry the torch to make the change is not the answer. You carry your own torch. A collective torch brings down the house. What a great way to wrap it up. And it may be that the generation in the best position to learn and change may be the one that helps make a difference for us, including at the ballot box. Thank you all, Professor Randall, Tina, Jeff. Thank you, folks, for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii. Thank you. Be safe, be well, and learn together.