 Let's see what's new on the Burlington Waterfront. Welcome to On the Waterfront. I'm your host, Mariah Riggs, Director of the Main Street Landing Performing Arts Center. Today I'm really excited to have two guests on the show today. My first guest is Sandrine, who's the Director of Housing Advocacy Programs at CVOEO, and Jess Hyman, who's the Associate Director of Housing and Advocacy Programs at CVOEO. Thank you, ladies, for coming on the show. Oh, thank you for having us. It's so exciting to have you here. So, just to kind of get into it really quickly, what does CVOEO do? Oh, wonderful. So, CVOEO, which is the Shemprin Valley Office of Economic Opportunity, is one of the five community action agencies serving the Northern part of Vermont. What we do is providing gap services to people that are experiencing a sort of a crisis. We have 13 programs at this time, which the Housing Advocacy Programs have four, actually include group four of them. And we are an agency that really focuses not only at providing direct services, but at really advocating for the vulnerable community members that we have in the state of Vermont. It is includes definitely trying to help them with the basics, the first basics needs that they have, such as housing, food, education for very young children, avoidization, and more. That's amazing. So, there's a lot that people can go to the Shemprin Valley Office of Economic Opportunity and reach out to you guys if they need help with certain things. Correct. That's a pretty wide net that you cast. And so, your specific role in what you guys do is the Advocacy Component. And you said that's four programs? Yes, four statewide programs. So, CVOEO is the only agency who has actually four statewide programs focusing on Advocacy, Housing Advocacy at that. We do operate the Vermont tenants, mobile home, the Housing Family Voucher Program and also the Fair Housing Project. Those four programs do provide education, direct service, of course. We do advocate in front of the legislature every year. We also provide some community organizing support. Retention services when it comes to housing, people that are actually experiencing some housing issues with their landlords or financial. And the most important when it comes to fair housing because Jess's gonna talk about the fair housing portion and education because this is one of our expertise. We do as a statewide organization programs, let's say. We really focus on working on the ground and we identify the needs that the community has and we adapt our services and programs to actually meet or try or support those needs. So it's very much a grassroots organization. Correct. And it's need-based. So what happens is the people out there who actually need your services, who reach out to you and need those advocacy is what actually drives your mission. Exactly, and all the work that we do as an organization is grounded in social, racial, economic and environmental justice. And so when, for our statewide housing advocacy programs, folks will contact us if they're experiencing challenges in their rental housing or if they're being treated unfairly based on who they are in their housing or if they're living in a manufactured home community and have questions or supports. And do you sometimes work with organizations? I would assume in the mobile home community, specifically, there's a lot of parks that have residential communities and stuff that reach out to you. Indeed, we work with communities and we work with individuals. We have partners specifically through a housing project. We work with housing providers, municipals, libraries. So we have a lot of different partners because we do understand that the solutions to our crisis, when it comes to housing, need to include everyone, every actor, important and recipients to the discussion, to the design of some type of system change that we are working for. Which is wonderful, and you know, I think part of it too is I was really excited about this interview because I feel like specifically the work that you do is so incredibly important. It's in the front of a lot of people's minds right now because what's happening in the news around housing and rent problems, people being able to afford housing, not only in Vermont, but nationwide. And you guys are very much in the forefront of dealing with these issues that are very pertinent right now to what's happening in the world. And so I just wanted to also talk to you. First of all, I wanna thank you for dealing with this for so long. It's really crucial to Vermonters and to what they're facing right now. And I just wanted to get a sense from you guys because this week we had some pretty big news. There was the 11th hour extension of the Motel program in Vermont. And I just wanted to kind of get a sense from you. A, what that meant for you, what that meant for you and your clients. And how that fight went for you guys because I know you were probably a part of that at the state house. Yeah, so it was really exciting news yesterday. And where the legislative session ended, well, before the veto session was a really strong budget that had a huge amount of wins for the affordable housing world. There was a lot of money dedicated to affordable housing development and almost full statutory funding for the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board which supports affordable housing development all over the state. And there was a lot of money that went towards services and other resources to folks experiencing homelessness and people looking to purchase homes. And there wasn't a solution to one of the biggest housing problems we have in our state which is the fact that so many people don't have access to safe, stable and affordable homes. And with the end of the pandemic era hotel program there were going to be thousands of people who were cast out onto the street. And luckily the house, the Senate and the administration were able to come together for a compromise. It happened at the last minute. It would have been really nice if it had happened earlier or even a couple of years earlier. But as of yesterday with this new bill that was passed most of the people who are currently in hotels will be able to stay through the winter. It didn't fix everything. I didn't realize it was through the winter. That's wonderful. And by the way, congratulations because I don't know if the viewers are aware of this. It was the fastest veto override in the state's history which is actually saying something in the state house. So kudos on that. And it is such a pertinent and important issue. And I think everybody's seen it and I hear about it all the time. It's hard to keep a roof over your head in the state of Vermont right now and the interest rates aren't helping. There's a lot of factors that are sort of driving besides, there's income equality, there's racial issues and again environmental issues. A lot of those things that you cited that you tend to deal with with your advocacy program that are feeding into sort of this maelstrom I would say a pretty pertinent housing crisis across the state. And so, and I think everybody feels that and you could see that yesterday with that veto override which in politics is very rare. So that's a good thing. It was a good day. It was a good day for housing in Vermont. Now, so kind of getting into that, this is very interesting. You just mentioned a bunch of things in that bill that I was not aware of. So I kind of wanted to, everybody hears about the Motel program but it sounds like there were some other things in that program that I kind of wanted to dig out from you and hear about more. Sure, well in the budget itself had a lot of really good investments in long-term affordable housing. And that's what we need because we need both things. We need the crisis support, we need the opportunity for people to have a roof over their heads and get connected to all the supports and resources that our organization and others offer. And we need permanent long-term affordable housing and there needs to be something in between. And so that's where the work needs to happen. That's something in between. Yeah, and I think I was actually wanted to ask you, where are you seeing the need the most? As you kind of look at it systemically, where are you seeing the need develop the most? Right now we, with this veto, we somewhat postponed housing crisis situation that would have been devastating. For how long? That's the question that we need to ask ourselves. Propositions were placed in front, I know the registrators about very, sometimes risky solutions at the table. And although it seems like that this specific bell does provide some kind of a relief, we need to work towards sustainable, affordable and fair housing. That's supposed to be a practical way of thinking. But since we are where we are, we did get where we are, knowing that that might have happened, tells me that the focus needs to be in prevention more than anything else. We always react very quickly and look at the timing of the veto. Do you say it yourself? It wasn't that quick to do. Prevention, prevention. I was not saying that the state has done some particular improvement and investment in providing this type of support, such as financial rental assistance and really put money into transactional housing. But the service is the support that we have seen on the ground for these families to be navigating this very complicated system, to be educated in the fact that they have rights, but also responsibilities, the fact that they do not know where to turn to, or even if they know, we as organization supporters, supporting our vulnerabilities, have not the capacity, we have not even the ability to actually improve it, and not even that, innovatively, the services that we provide because it is based on community needs and because we have seen COVID-19 and we've seen what it has actually brought up to the surface, we need to adapt as well. But how do we do that? We don't have actually the financial support and the main power to do so. So really thinking on retention, prevention, transition supports. And something that's sustainable too. Correct. I mean, because let's be honest, keeping people in motel rooms is kicking the can down the road for somebody else to deal with it. But I know that's the end of the winter. And I know that just when we were talking about scarcity in actually getting to up at the bottom. I mean, so what do you do with the thousands of people that you've taken care of for eight months, and yet do you have the support services in order to find them the jobs or the means or do we have even have the housing capacity? Exactly. And that's what we don't have yet because it takes even with all sorts, even if hundreds, thousands of units in the works all over the state, it's still not enough. And then once these units are built, then folks have to be able to have choice and opportunity in accessing those homes. And so it's a challenge. And I think that we're, there's a lot of really great work happening all over the state with nonprofit and for-profit housing developers with all the social service agencies that are working so hard to connect folks with services. You know, our educational programs too are part of that prevention and retention piece. So what are your education programs? Yeah, so with Vermont tenants and Fair Housing, we have a series of educational workshops that help folks with the rights and responsibilities involved with Vermont rental and Fair Housing law. And then on the mobile home side, we also do a lot of education and training around resident organizing. And so- Obviously the crucial point of having mobile parks, the residency program is like what helps elevate everybody in those communities. Exactly, yeah, because mobile home communities are in such a unique situation where people may own their home, but rent their land. And Vermont has a really amazing diversity of mobile home park types, privately owned co-ops and nonprofit owned as well. And so all of our education programs really focus on helping people get access to the information and the resources and also the confidence to uphold their rights and to know where to turn when something does go wrong and to keep stability in their homes. Which can be really hard if you're dealing with a lot of issues at home, when you're dealing with a lot of stressors, like things like economic stressors, family illness. There's a lot of different varying factors that can put a lot of weight on people especially. And that can actually affect their financial capacity to have housing. And so the number one thing I would assume, especially since there are organizations like you were saying out there. Really quickly, I just wanted to, if you guys want to do a plug for some of the organizations out there, I know you guys are great, but some other organizations in case people are watching, that can also help people with housing issues. Sure, I mean there's the community action network. So there are five community action agencies all over the state. And each one provides that emergency housing services. There's also the state economic services division for immediate housing support. So if someone is literally homeless and looking to get a roof over their head for the night. Financial support as well, for the same network. Vement legal aid, provide legal services, yes. Which is crazy. And that can be really difficult too because I know we see it a lot in Burlington. Landlords can get an idea and rents can go up and things can happen and then when people are evicted, there's nowhere for them to turn. And I just know this from my own personal experiences that sometimes the bureaucracy of support services and help can be very limiting. It's almost like you need a master's to be able to access funding or access resources because can you even find it on the webpage? Or do you have access to the internet? Exactly. I mean those hurdles are so prohibitive people who are dealing with family trauma or health issues or financial instability. That, so the workshops you guys supply are so important. And so that's something too I wanted to address with you guys is to please make sure you go to cvoeo.org. They have a list of all of their workshops on there. If you're interested, if you wanna get educated, if you wanna know what your rights are and what's out there for your support. Their website has all of those wonderful resources for you to utilize. So please check that out. You know, an example of, just a quick example, what's an example of one of your workshops? Sure, so one of our workshops is tenant skills and what that workshop includes is all the basics of a tenant's rights. So what it means when you sign a lease, what a landlord can and can't do, what to do if you experience a problem in your home, what to do if you want to leave, what to do if you're asked to leave and you're not sure if it's legal or not. And in addition to that basic rights information, there's also the responsibilities of information. You know, how to be a good tenant. One thing we really focus on is relationship building and communication and making sure that there's a good venue of communication between renters and landlords. Cause often that's where things can break down and sometimes something that might be just a small issue gets elevated to a larger issue because of a lack of communication. When things do break down, we have a hotline that folks can call. Our Vermont Tenants Hotline is a great resource for folks and we hear every day we get calls from people who are experiencing challenges in their rental housing, who are receiving hundreds of dollars of increases in rent as well or facing other issues. And so we talk them through their problems, help them figure out what their next steps are and make referrals as needed. Which is an incredible asset, I mean for people. And sometimes they don't know how to talk to their landlord. And I know too, I'm sure you guys probably hear about this as well, is sometimes tenants don't realize that they do have rights, that they don't need to have mold in their house or they don't need that they should have certain, you know, they should have certain things near electrical outlets that could be dangerous for their children and those kinds of issues. I'm sure you see that as well. Yes, of course we do see that and it's not necessarily a choice. When you have housing scarcity, when you have this type of housing crisis that we are having, sometimes people don't want to be on the street. They stay in this very dangerous housing situation because they don't have a choice, because they don't have the accessibility or even the information to move forward. And like you said, if they don't know their rights, of course, you know, and there is no guarantee that the landlord will actually address those issues at all. So yes, it's very difficult. We are hearing, and it's on the rental side with tenants and we hear it with Momohom residents as well. The housing stock in Vermont is old and you know, and facing that has been made when it comes to address some issues with some incentive for them not to actually access funding with matching, of course, meaning that they have to put some of their money into it, but what is not to like there? Because you're supposed to be providing safe housing and if you are, you need to be able to maintain safe housing for your tenants. I mean, for me, it's question of community and our responsibility. We all are Vermonters. We all want the best for each other. I hope. And we need to build. Well, I know you're gonna say, oh yes, this is the song that, you know, we literally- No, but it's so true. But in reality, as a citizen, as a responsible citizen, this is what you have to look towards. It's really to know what you are offering and to conscientiously bring your best forward. There is help out there. It's not that there is none and the minimal that we might be able to bring forward as a state is more than most other states actually do provide. Well, Vermont's one of those great markets where we do have a state legislature and passing that veto is a classic example of that where people actually listen and they care. You know, of course you can never do too much, but at least there is more here than you do see in a lot of other states. And another thing I was thinking about is I wanted to ask you, what is, you know, because you're in advocacy. So what is the number one thing that people bring to you? You know, some of the biggest concerns that you guys see come into your office. Habitability issues. Okay, and what is that? Meaning that the state of the home is not safe. Really? Yes. Unsafe living conditions. Yes, yes. That's the first and has been for the longest ever. Yeah, things like mold in the home or not having adequate heat, not having adequate bathroom facilities, kitchen facilities, holes in walls, pests. Also we hear about these every day and the challenges when they're... It's really important for people to think about that. Well, exactly. And people put, as Sandrine said before, people are often afraid to complain because when there simply aren't enough homes out there people are afraid of losing their homes. And then this means that people who are traditionally subject to exclusion and segregation in their housing. So BIPOC folks, LGBTQ plus folks, people with disabilities, people with children, people who already face barriers to accessing, barriers to fair housing and equal access to housing are even more pinched when there aren't enough homes. And so they can be even more reluctant to report these things because they fear retaliation. But luckily there are laws on the books which protect them both at the state and federal level. I would assume that the state has the tenants back and would require, I mean, I work for a property management company but I don't really work in property management. I'm in the arts. But that those protections are in place and that the landlord is required to fulfill certain obligations to the tenant. And also I would hope too that there are laws in place where there's no recourse. So that a tenant has the capacity to try to advocate for themselves or their children or their family. And there is no way for the landlord to be like, ha ha, I guess he's not getting a lease next year because you did this and you made me spend this kind of money. There are laws. Yes, they're absolutely, they're absolutely, they're absolutely our laws. And they don't always get followed and they can be difficult to enforce. And so that's where the advocacy comes in is to make sure that folks know what their rights are and know when to identify when something is illegal. Cause sometimes things can be unfair and unjust but not illegal unfortunately. But there is a very clear line about what's legal and what isn't in terms of fair housing law and landlord tenant law. And so we help people identify that and to advocate for their rights and to speak up when things aren't done. And that's again really important. I wanna let our viewers know to make sure that they know to call the hotline and talk because they have this incredible resource for you guys to be able to reach out to them and talk about some of your problems. The supports are there. You are in a community that does care about you and your family. And everybody wants you to be in safe and functioning housing, which I have heard. I know we've all heard the horror stories on social media. So it's nice to know you guys are there. And so I kind of also wanted to talk to it. This is the 55th anniversary of the Fair Housing Act. And so I kind of wanted to get your first of all a overview of what the Fair Housing Act actually means for a viewership and the anniversary and what that means for you. Sure, well the Fair Housing Act was passed in 1968. And it was part of the civil rights movement is what led to its passage. And what it does is it puts protections at the federal level against people being treated unfairly in their housing based on who they are, based on their skin color, where they're born, their sex, gender identity or sexual orientation, whether they have a disability or not and other factors. And what this means is that everyone has equal opportunity to housing choice and the right to have a home and live in a home, buy a home, rent a home, finance a home, live in a home free from discrimination or harassment. And I think it's important to note that this law has been on the books at the federal level for 55 years and we still have housing discrimination. Do you still see, I mean I guess that's the next question, is do you still see people who are not in compliance with the Fair Housing Act? Absolutely. Of course. Which actually Vermonters like to think that maybe they don't have that in the state, but it, so you do see it. Yeah, the most of the complaints that come into both Vermontley-Gallade and the Human Rights Commission are on the basis of disability. So people being treated unfairly based on having a either a mental or physical disability or being in recovery from substance abuse. And then these, this sort of second and third most common issues are based on race and also having children as well, the presence of minor children. Goodness gracious, you're not allowed to have kids. We're not even gonna get to talk about that. And you're born a certain way, we're never gonna take care of that either. I mean, it's terrible. And you think after 55 years we would have gotten somewhere, and right? Yes, but enforcement is what the problem lies. It's key, and laws is fine. But you give people the choice to follow it or not, but the consequences of not following it is not really there. The enforcement. The enforcement piece. The burden is put on the complainant, which is usually the renters. Oh, wow. The people being discriminated against. Really? So the plaintiff is disproportionately put on trial. It sounds like a really bad rape case. And no, I'm just saying though, but the burden of proof is on the tenant, which marginalizes a lot of people further. And that's unfortunately not really equitable. Becausely as well. Exactly. And that's unfortunate. I didn't realize that. And when someone is, say, facing discrimination when they're looking for housing, when they're trying to rent an apartment, for example, if they know perhaps that they're being treated unfairly, they still really wanna get into that apartment. And so often they won't make a complaint or won't know what to do because they wouldn't wanna jeopardize getting into that safe and stable housing. Luckily with the fair housing law, you can file a complaint after the fact. So I wanna also thank you both so much for being on the show. I very much, this is a very interesting conversation. I have learned a lot. I hope all of you have learned a lot as well. If you do have housing questions, please reach out. Again, the hotline is at the bottom. They're here to help you. There's a lot of help in the state of Vermont. This is an ongoing crisis in the state of Vermont. I know we didn't get to go into as much solution-based talking as I wanted, but maybe for next time. Thank you guys so much for all you do. And remember to reach out and stand up for your rights because tenants do have rights. People in mobile home communities have rights. The state is there to help you. And all you need to do is find the help. And we have access at the bottom of this screen and ways that you can contact and reach out and see what your rights are. So thank you guys again so much for being here. I'll see you guys again next month. Take care, bye.