 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my favorite person in the world my co-host my longest time friend. It's Tyler. What's up, buddy? How you doing? You're gonna do this every week Every single week Good to be here. I'm so excited for our guests tonight and this topic absolutely this is a great It's a great topic and there was really only one man. I could come to for it. It's the it's the most dangerous man in wargaming It's the magical mr. Mephisto. How you doing buddy? I'm awesome, man. I'm actually pretty great So happy to be here. I'm happy for the topic and The second most qualified, but hey what was sick? So get me He would have been another one that would have been good. I mean admittedly Thinking about this show like, you know real talk There was like the Venn diagram of overlap of people who could like intelligently talk about this topic is Pretty small it wasn't huge. That's not us. That's not a slap against anybody in the community It's just like I think this is the kind of thing that like you and I and Hey, whoa And a couple other people have really thought about a lot and most other people have never thought about at all No fault of their own. They just have lives Well, I mean, that's that's one thing I was thinking about like today just trying to come up, you know prep myself So really I'm like, what's the use of us knowing all of this, right? It's highly dubious information But today we're gonna be talking about the psychographic profile of Warhammer armies and we're gonna be we're gonna be tearing the armies That's right. It's a tear show everybody. It's a tear show, but instead of the normal a b c d f z s q pi theta list Instead we're gonna talk about Timmy Johnny and spike and if you don't know what the heck I'm even talking about Don't worry. Don't worry. We've got you covered We're gonna take you through what this concept is where it comes from and how it can be applied to worry my reason I do think this is important because in the end it helps you pick the right armies that actually you will gain Like a positive psychological utility from playing see perfect see look at that you you Like premise and solution perfect right at the intro. There you go. Uh, all right CJ says I'm an s tier player because I have fun when everyone has fun That would make you an s tier player that that should be our definition of s tier players Absolutely, right S tier is like people who play like that or bill susa who can win with fec as we'll mention in a moment It's just a mad bad. Yeah, that's that's all it is At any rate, let's get into the news Yeah, just rubbing it in our faces All right, as usual it looks like it's a 40k thing with this rumour engine. It is who cares I saw Warboss kergan said that he thought it was a corpse grinder cultist Which apparently is a cannibalistic cult gang that hangs out in the hive cities of necromunda for anybody who cares Yeah, they have really cool looking weapons. It's cool looking gang Yeah, um, it could also be the new corn stuff There's been sort of a rumor that they've been sitting on a corn remake on a guy. What are they like the World eaters or something? I don't I don't know chaos marine regiments. So you'll have to forgive me Yeah, um other than other than the emperors children, which is the only one worth knowing But uh of the bad guys, but uh, which are the ones that have the most possible noise marines Because those are the only ones I would care about the emperors children. That's that that's correct. Those are the good ones Yes, it's yeah, like sort of main slinnish ones um at any rate the uh The rumor is they've been sitting on on a remake of those for about a year and a half And just been like they had to send a couple back to re-sculpt and they weren't happy with some of them It didn't quite come together. So they just kind of shelved it for a little while. So maybe this is that who knows I don't know I have an alternate theory. Um, it's empire waves too. Sure. Absolutely. I'm gonna get that going now It's a steak chainsaw. It's just like a wood It's like this is that this is the anti-vampire stuff. So it's actually like a chain. It's a chainsaw, but with like blessed Right, I had to necro that one for everyone. You know, first of all, that's a movie I'm in for a second late Let's do it. Okay All right, so Are we there yet? Is it finally The sunday that we're gonna get the preview of these two battle tomes. No You don't think so? No We're still not there Uh Does rob have his sign ready like well, if we don't get the FAQ signs Yeah, then rob is going out with the sign this saturday. Can we send him additional signs to go stand? We're more than six weeks out now for the four week FAQ. So Okay, well, they had to release war cry or whatever or uh kill team Yeah, uh new four Yeah, well If we do get it this sunday that would keep their commitment of the august release or at least pre-order That would be the 28th and then release on the fourth So here's open here's open We did get a couple of more articles or quirkland's preview article Which let me pull it up here Anything stand out to you guys. I did see there was a little bit detail on that massive Uh bow That they haven't yeah, I mean we got it. So the only thing that matters out of all of these articles Okay, like I don't mean to shortcut the discussion But there's one thing that matters out of all of these articles All right, and it's how the tree bow works Because that's what we were all asking. What is the damage profile on this giant thing that shoots trees at people in in cruel boys, right? So it turns out it's one shot We don't know the hidden wound yet because they didn't have that in the article. I'm assuming it's probably going to be like Threes and twos would probably be my guess off the top of my head Slightly inaccurate, but if it hits it wounds because you're putting a tree through somebody, right? Right, it's like it's the old cannonball principle, right because all the original cannons were like fours and twos Like inaccurate, but if they hit Whammo, right? Anyways, uh, which I played a game where I still have some of those original cannons on my steam tank this last weekend Three rounds in a row three ones to wound with that cannon loved it. It's great um at any rate the uh The the way it works is like this. It's base damage is two Okay, and then you roll a die For the equal to the you roll a number of dice equal to the wounds characteristic of the thing you just hit Okay, so for every five plus you then the damage increases by one Right up to a maximum of 12 up to a maximum of 12. Yes and so First of all just just a slight amount of no fun allowed in there. They had to get just a little Just a little bit I was immediately insulted because my worst on the giant caps at 10 for no reason and he can like auto hit 10 But yet theirs gets to go to 12 for fine. Whatever. I'm not still angry about that I mean giants are gonna get a lot of good stuff apparently So I can't be too. I just feel like I'm the rich kid complaining at this point, but um, obviously immediately everybody does the mega gargantt math, which just means you do 12 to mega gargants like that's That's the instant math because you're rolling 35 dice right 12 of them on average are going to be five pluses So it's immediately capped bam. It's a it's a 12 damage shot into into giants into mega gargants Seems all right. It's all right That's that's a good chunk out of one of them. Yes. That's uh, that is a great counter action to the giants So especially gonna be some way to make that thing fire twice Right. I mean it is the giants world and we're just kind of living in it right now So it's it's okay to like start uh taking them down the peg. I think yeah So that's the thing to soft talk about those articles. I mean All of this means nothing until we get the books because we got to know how this stuff looks But yep Yep If we want to know them, yeah, let me know them sweet synergies, baby. That's what I want to know Did they get this right or not? That's the question right? I mean war clans was for my money one of those like low-key sort of great books from last edition completely agree It's a fantastic look And like are can they please can we get the repeat like, you know Like I mean, I've said it before I've said it before the previous book Where I was like just reprint what you've currently got and then every time they've done it They haven't but they've made it better And that's a really high bar like three times in a row now. They've just made it better Can we get a fourth or will we get slanished? I love that it's become a verb now. It absolutely has Uh, I mean just one one row one last bit before we move off of this They've actually got a couple like decent spells too, which is always I think a pretty good indicator though Like when you have a couple like good spells. Yeah, there is there. You're absolutely right. There is a couple good spells Um big fa ec says wounds Per unit or model. No, no, it's the wounds characteristic of the unit you're targeting So like if you shoot annihilators with it, you would roll three dice Right and so it's it's you know chances are it does three damage That would be the mathematical average of that. It's meant to shoot big things it's meant to shoot dragons and giants and You know vampire lords on zombie dragon and crap like that Like that's what you want to put it into because then you're getting like five six seven damage shots The real question is going to be what's the rend because if it's like rend neg one Big thumbs down if it's like red neg three Yeah thumbs up And yes, I am aware soren. We'll talk about it. Uh, all right Uh, cool Yeah, so I just got a heads up about five minutes ago. Apparently we have some dracoth rider stats But bam, that's right. So we got leaks of the dracoth rider both the lord celestante on dracoth as well as the uh Uh The dracoth riders themselves. We know the dracoth riders are battle line in hammers of sigmar As I've said, I've always been a hammers of sigmar player. So It's I'm glad to glad it tape checks out like I went back and go back and look I've always said it. I've always been a hammers of sigmar player. Um, I'm excited for my all dragon army because the Nitroconus will make my dragon riders battle line and hammers will make these guys battle line and all of the dudes I'm currently painting will never get used which is exciting Um, but there was a significant stat upgrade here like the base dracoth now If you look he's the last profile here, you see how they're matching the little colored sections the numbers whatever One two three four So the base dracoth on the lord celestante is four attacks threes and threes neg two rend two damage So definitely a nice upgrade if we go over here to the regular fulminators They're their dracoths are three attacks each instead of four, but still good Uh, still three threes neg two two damage So like neg two rend attacks and two damage on the dracoths is fantastic upgrade The lord celestante seven wounds three up they say Nine bravery. So a great hero like that's fantastic. That's what you want to see I don't know if he'll be any good or not. We'll see He his profile is like fine. I'm not that interested in it. He's he's not really what I'm here for Uh, the question is do the fulminators still do what they used to do as far as their special rules go that we don't know But the concussers baby, I'm all about these concussers because they were sort of the damage dudes if you remember Yep, and the concussers are three attacks threes and threes neg two two damage for the guys on top So total per model you're getting six attacks at threes threes neg two two damage Pretty sweet. That's great. Yeah, I don't think any of them were Minus two rends previously. No, so it's a lot of up rend and a lot of up damage the desolators and the fulminators are both still Uh, only one damage, but they did both go to neg two rend and the fulminators got two extra attacks as well They went from three attacks to five attacks, which is good So if their special ability is good They could be the pick right if you're not trying to get them for damage like if they're if they still have the you know bonus to Shooting or whatever like they you know, they get tougher against things that shoot at them Like they get a plus one to save against things that shoot at them or something like that That could be a really really amazing ability because then that unit just becomes just almost unshiftable to a lot of ranged threat Well, and we and we've seen they're willing to play with capturing rules with storm cast internals too so like You know that that could be a good omen as well and Is anyone else getting deja vu with 3.0? Because it feels like we're kind of in the realm of like the more things change the more they say the same I remember when I was getting in like the old mixed order lists were like a pack of fulminators and Running mixed order and stuff like I mean, I hope you're your old hammer's list. Basically is what I'm saying. Yeah, sure Of course Yeah, right. Absolutely. Yeah, the list that les martin stole. Yeah Yeah, absolutely. Um, but yeah, I mean like these are great stats So yeah, six wounds by the way on these guys, they'll still come in packs of two obviously So which is I love I love packs of two six wounds meaning they count as two for taking objectives Two meaning you can reinforce them to four and still use the good coherency rules So Yeah, man You guys are great and I'm all about the whole unit just down the line being rendegg too just everything Yeah, yeah pretty tasty So very cool digging it I think that's it for the news. I know we got some events. Was anything else in news? uh Let's see Yes, there was my friend. How could we forget about the suns of betta? Did I not put that in there? Oh, yeah, the suns of betta. Yeah, here it is. No, I just missed it. Okay. I was gonna say I thought I had it in there Yep All right folks hold on I'm ready for the spice. This is good. We're gonna get like full spice medium spice Yes, as as crazier is pointing out. They used to be five wounds. They're now six. I didn't mention that, but it's just awesome The the drake off right or so all the better for crag knows players really super upgrade all around I'm stoked about drake off. I was hoping they'd be good. They were good. Okay. Now. It's angry time All right, the thing we absolutely positively 100 in no way shape or form needed in this edition We're getting so yay in the newest white dwarf We revealed that we are going to get new core battalions and new grand strategy and or ease and battle tactics for every army so we can look forward to these in the storm cast and uh war clans book as well. I am not pleased about any of this and Like this is truly the worst of all possible worlds The best part about having the new core battalions was them going. Hey, remember how we couldn't balance battalions? We were all like, yeah, you can't and they were like, well, don't worry about that anymore We made a simple set of like six And maybe we'll throw a couple in seasonally for spice in the ghp that have to do with that year's theme And then that's what everybody uses and I'm like Wonderful. Yeah Great. This is what I wanted. I feel like we have parity here and sure Some people can take advantage of some of the battalions better than others. There's no doubt about that right but of course we all know that uh That like in the whole it's still Generally balanced right like most armies can get a hold of like a warlord if you wanted Everybody could take hunters of the heartlands, which is something most people liked Right. I'm not done yet. But I'm gonna pause. No, no, no, keep going. No, I'm just Um, just the only thing is like at least everyone's at the same party now, right? Like right It felt like we were all together like yeah, we've all got this and sure Giants couldn't really take the battalions. Oh, I've such I've seen at defending this like a hundred times and it is the most Smooth brain take on defense for this move. Okay, like I'm sorry. I play giants. Am I excited about these battalions? Sure. I'm gonna love putting him on the table. I already did I played a game this last weekend with these new battalions. I ran a Uh, I ran like a two drop giant list where all three megas had artifacts. It was great okay And like boy, did I feel pretty good. I'm not sure how my opponents felt as I ran slip shot over them, but sure uh the The nature of the core battalions being like giants can take advantage of so it's okay giants get these all right Is is the the superest of bad faithist arguments because they're gonna do these for everybody else too And so now we all just get our own battalions again and the giants let me flip over the core battalions because these are the first ones We should talk about so first of all, I love a four Like real things that happen with the bosses the stomp in the hood so long as I'm not even gonna talk about that deep but Is it confirmed this is this is for everyone and not just sons? Yes, because they said this is the first of something and everybody's gonna get this treatment In the new battle tomes and in the upcoming white dwarves. They got a sold white dwarves, man. They got to right And so like hey look if they if they if the battle tomes come out and they're like hey We were lying the marketing people were wrong and lied to you when they talked about it I'd be like yeah fine great Best possible scenario. Okay. Yeah, like there's a coffee stand on the post at note. Yeah, they didn't get the article Yeah, but like, you know what this boss of the stomp means is that all giant armies now If you want are going to be either like you can be one drop with two artifacts Which is something you couldn't be ever before fantastic. That's a great play You can be one drop with three artifacts if you want intake or tribe So that's pretty great You can be two drops four artifacts In taker tribe also fun Okay Or two drops three artifacts in any other tribe And Yeah, I mean it's just it's really good. This is whatever who cares about this like it's it's fine Sure, they're both unified like I don't know why giant like giants were already in one of the better drop positions Because you were more or less always four drops, which is actually the competitive number to just roll off with people So I don't know why we suddenly needed to always go to either two or one, which is what this means is going to happen Like this this construct of these battalions says they're always either two or or one Yeah, well, I No, you two you first time I was gonna say that I think that's a big deal I mean at least at the tournament that I've seen a list that I've been saying There's a lot of one drops and two drops that are out there So if they're now not automatically having to go first every game and you know now potentially opening up that double turn That's that's pretty big deal. But but sure they were already low drop They were already low now. You can just be one or two your choice every time Right like period that's like every giant list because of the way these are constructed is either one or two drop Or you're doing it wrong Hmm Okay, and then Then the like whatever these are terrible that we have to now put up with these and everybody will have their own battalions Like things I don't want I don't want to know what new change house is going to look like or whatever Okay, right. I don't want to know But where are you saying that they said that that was in the original thing where they talked about in the white dwarf It's like this is the in the white dwarf. It says like this is the first of all the articles We're gonna launch up to bring you up to yeah We won't be able to launch all the battle tomes. We're gonna do a series of white dwarf articles And we're introducing all the new rules that will bring your armies up to 3.0 readiness with their new rules That you can expect to see for all armies. It was something You know, it was yeah the language is very like prescriptive like it was it made it sound like it was foreshadowing like the future So right Yes, this is this is it and there's more to come right like this is this and there's more to come right Right now. I should point out. You're absolutely right. So hams is pointing something out like you can there is a slash here Okay, so you have to like make decisions about how you're you're doing this stuff because my point is you can play with it It's either unified or the the thing. Yes, that is absolutely correct You can take the unified you can go into take or tribe you get the bonus artifact from take or tribe Right and so on and so forth. So yes, you're you're absolutely right um the The grand strategies in the battle tactics is actually what drives me crazy. Okay because like the The thing that that really like grinds my gears is the grand strategies and battle tactics We all were pulling from a unified pool. So you kind of knew what they were And you could there was counterplay against them. You could play with them. You knew what people are trying Now the fact that all of these are just straight terrible like i'm not even going to talk about them because they're all bad Okay um Means nothing to me Right, like you would never use these battle tactics Because they're just like more things you have to remember and they're almost all just on a dice roll that you have no control over right Um, like hope you're like roll a three up complete your battle tactic Roll it one or two. You don't that's what that's what most of these are Okay But just like let's multiply this out 25 armies great now. We've got 75 additional battle tactics, but let's that's But that's not really what's going to happen Okay, what's really going to happen is not every army will get this treatment Because you're not going to get a battle tome or a white dwarf article out for every army Not in any rapid amount of time So what's going to happen is you'll get Uh, you'll get let's say 15 armies Between all the battle tomes and the white dwarf articles in a in a year. Let's just say Okay So that's 45 unique battle tactics That that theoretically just go from year to year and carry over regardless of the ghb Right So 15 armies have them 10 don't And of those 15 armies and those 45 battle tactics some are going to be slam dunks Right some like the fact that these are all terrible doesn't tell me anything about what's coming in the future And some of them will just be Uh, some of them will just be Bad Some of them will be really good. They'll just be more autocompletes and suddenly those army can go to five Right away Because they've got two to three that are great In their personal list and then they can just get whatever the lowest hanging fruit is out of the base list Whereas the have nots will then struggle. This is a bad idea I've said it from the very beginning. I'm against it. We should all be playing from one list I shouldn't have to memorize 45 different battle tactics So Ran it's over Matt what are your thoughts? Well, I think Your your best I think is the strongest take and all of that is like You said something before rewind like to might have been your hammer's a sigmar era That you said this but you said something along the lines of we play a game of of perfect information But not perfect recall, right? and That's what you're doing when you're divvying up this Stuff we're supposed to all have the same amount of information about everything at all times And you're just putting another sort of like a wedge between that perfect information perfect recall If it's all coming out the core book, you know, if it's all coming out the like the awesome little like ghb Version we got with the core rules, right? Like if it's all coming out of there, it's the one thing You know, it's we're all on the same page You know, uh, I mean that's we can both look at the list together We're both looking at a shared eight and it's great. I love it It's one of my favorite things honestly about current 3.0 is like this is the eight I still think that's too many by the way, but whatever. I'm living with it. Like I'm looking at the eight going This is our eight. Which one are you, you know, like, oh, it's your turn. Don't forget to pick your battle tactic And they're like, oh, I'm doing this one and I'm like, okay. I know what that one is All right, let me think about it Yeah, you like narrow your eyes and you try to like you're about to like you're you're locked in your They go, well, I'm gonna pick broken ranks and that battle line is what I'm picking and I'm like, okay immediately I'm like, can I save that battle line unit, right? Do I have the command points to To all out defense them in the appropriate phases? Should I focus on a redeploy with them to pull them away? Right so that they can't charge them. Can I deny them this battle tactic? Right because I know what it is and somebody's gonna say I'm using that's mine and I'm like What was that again? And they'll be like, oh, it's the one where I kick an objective and roll 2d6 and then Magically, I either complete the battle tactic or don't and you have nothing to say about it. Yeah And I'm like, okay great Which by the way, it's terrible like that's a terrible terrible terrible terrible battle tactic They had a hard time getting to eight compelling battle tactics and you're they're gonna have five Like there are the thing is there's just gonna be like a couple of niche ones throughout if this is the future, right? Like I'm gonna live in the speculative for a moment here if this is the future There's gonna be like a couple of just like great ones just absolute like slam dunks for a couple armies Which is gonna dilute some of that parity if I can go back to battalions for a second I just I just I'm curious your thoughts on this because you have a very strong opinion on this. Um Do you think that? Maybe we don't all get battalions. Maybe it really is just like oh man like I would love it make Gargants gargants can't use them all like it really is like there's a coffee stain on the post at no Really is like gargants get these um, that's it that does pose an interesting throttling mechanism for gargants as the 3.0 develops and power. I don't want to call it power creep just like power Sort of ship just around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like as power jockeys around you have another lever to pull with With Sons of Bahamut an army that's very very very difficult to balance with points Now you can like inject these new You know, you can throttle with those battalions like I what do you think on that? Or yeah, I don't disagree like giants pose a really interesting challenge right because it's a four-unit army Right, like that's what it is by that. I mean it's like that's it and you and it's your army's four units And you play four units like that's what you have you have some combination of four Megas or packs of babies like that's what you've got. That's your army Right, and so, you know, it just makes it like And look i'm not saying the the giant ones are op like it's not my argument. Please don't Mishear me. Okay. Like I don't think it makes I don't I certainly don't think it makes giants any weaker It's certainly a power up for them Okay But like my concern is not giants is op hence is bad. Please don't read these don't be so reductive with my take Right. I'm not like that. I just want to go ahead and jump this out there. Yeah uh and so the My take is we didn't need these they're bloat Ultimately what it comes down to is they're bloat like look. I'm excited. I loved taking basically like an extremely like a two-drop giant list Uh With an extra artifact in it or whatever. I was like, yes, it's great This is what I want. Thank you for the candy. Right like all the candy for me like I took multiple, you know, like Uh, somebody got I had two casters in my giant army I don't know how that happened, but suddenly that's true I had two casters and a five up ward save because I had the little shiny You know ear piece and then somebody was carrying the arcane tome and then somebody had a five up ward Felt pretty good to me. Yeah. Yeah Something then it just goes back and forth of who has the flaming sword who has the mystic shield, you know It's a could go either way. Who's going to be in the fight? Right. I need it. Yeah, who needs the oh who needs the d so, uh You know, it just it just isn't necessary But the battle tactics and the strategy is what really if you want to pull like the thorn in my paw Like it's this. Mm-hmm. The battalions are just like it's breaking. What was a perfectly simple elegant system Okay And but this is just nonsense. This is nonsense, right? Yeah, just getting back One thought on this just coming back from a tournament. We had a scoring sheet And that scoring sheet had the battle tactics and grand strategies on it Obviously, you're not going to be able to do that with however many battle tactics grand strategies We're going to be looking at here soon. Sure. And so Yeah, I've really enjoyed as well this more constrained Shared space that we've been operating in and this potentially conceivably is going to blow that out of the water Yeah, yeah, it doesn't make a lot. I'm not really sure what the upside is on it Yep, but here we are apparently Should we real quickly say what these are you haven't actually mentioned what the Three battle tactics are I could run through them real quickly. I mean sure. I'll just I'll give them real quick the the The grand strategy is make the land tremble when the battle ends you complete this grand strategy If any friendly units made a run or charge move in every battle round So it's a win more one the only way it's slightly better than the normal one Is if like the only way you'd you'd lose this is if all your giants got engaged every round right and The Like so you could make one of them run or charge You understand what I'm saying, right? Yeah, otherwise you're just gonna run or charge every round like with one guy You can always do it. So unless somebody like alphas all four of your giants and gets them all engaged Yeah, right Then you Then you can't whatever it's that's the only excuse where this isn't There there were this is just generally worse than keep all your battle line alive or keep all your monsters alive Yeah, the only way it doesn't the only way it's better is if you get tabled in round five But you've already had a turn So you have to get tabled at the bottom of five Yeah Then it's better. See I just hear galaxy brain strategies down the line is all is all I'm hearing right now The battle tactics are matched to each one of the giants Okay, so that's mine is you pick an objective not in your territory kick it into your territory ridiculous. You'd never take it Because most objectives are pretty far outside of your territory and you'd have to like line up a kick The first one to get it so near to your territory that the second one Just almost can't fail because otherwise you're just rolling 2d6 and going. Hope I get high enough Right, it's just complete dice. There's nothing else to it Like you're five inches away because it has to land wholly within your territory Right. Okay. Well, then I hope you can roll at least a five or whatever right or a six Like but if you don't you lose it. That's it. It's just rolling dice to get complete about tactic The next one is the wrecking crew you complete this tactic a faction terrain feature in your if a faction terrain feature In your opponent's army is demolished in this turn. First of all hilarious second A random roll Right outside like it's a random roll on the breaker or if you're in the breaker tribe You can make your babies do it as well or your monsters can do it if you have if you use the general monster ability, right? So but again, it's a random roll it's three up One or two you fail three plus You succeed now you can have multiple giants around it all trying to roll three ups So sure it's probably the best one But again, it relies on actually there being opposing faction terrain Not every army has that so there's going to be some games where you literally don't ever you could not theoretically use this um, and then man man's Whatever the last one is. I don't know. It's the worst one. Okay You complete this tag the worst one. Yeah, if a friendly worstomper mega gargant uses hurled body And then the enemy that you pick for the first part of this ability is slain and then it and How I don't have any ands we need here, but and an enemy battle line unit is picked as the target for the second part of the ability and Suffers any mortal wounds as a result I don't know why my dogs are all down here. Happy doggo. Yay Hey, I know I was gonna show me when it's a dog. I show math. Yeah, dog. I show now. I guess she's she's lazy. She's over there So the point is like just so for everybody who doesn't know the math Hurled body the way you do is you have to you grab the model you have to roll over their wounds characteristic So you got you get a plus two to that if you're an unwounded worstomper not super hard most time But then you have to pick a battle in here for the target and the hurled body to cause the mortal wound It's just a straight up four up check Because no bonus that ever it's just roll a four up it happens Okay, and then they have to suffer the wound They can't save against it So, yeah, that's a that's a strange one. Yeah. Yes. They're all bad But I don't care. I don't care that these are bad future wounds might not be Yeah, right Well to os can always make their own choices on The grassroots game. Yeah We'll see. Yeah, we'll see that's I'm not excited about this direction, but I don't know Maybe maybe those be some bright sides some upsides. I doubt it. But maybe anything else on news I know I think that is uh, all of the news. I'm sorry to bring everybody down with that rant But uh, yeah Just just for mind everyone that dragons are probably going to be actually sweet like Dragons will be sweet and I am excited about them. All right. So, yeah, let's let's talk some pick of the week gentlemen Matt, what would you like to share with everybody for uh for pick of the week? Um, well, so I want to do a little bit about a community building thing before I get into my my uh Pick of the week, which is a summer slaughter just wrapped last weekend. 98 people run by Jared and the the oh and five, uh, you know, the uh Basement war gamers, right 98 people on the east coast. This is like one of the Biggest tournaments they've had in 10 years for for fantasy and I just you know Awesome, uh, you know people who are curious about tournaments and they feel kind of like landlocked Not a way like there's there are tournaments out there and so just shout out to them for doing a great job So, um, you got Martin Orlando now with the Atlantic City open and so that's two east coast tournaments that are just, you know cropping up now to really sort of bring in some more events. I think that's really awesome. Um For pick of the week, I gotta I gotta shout out people in jack gang So first of all snit bag. Uh, he's been a consistent member of of of the people who support me and he started streaming recently He's an actual painter, which I am not so you can go and watch him Paint stuff and then come watch me just have opinions on things. Uh, so snit bag on twitch And if you don't do the twitch thing on youtube, you got the pants mafia You know pants mafia youtuber pants mafia aos. That's you know christian wear Minimum pants max maximum pants moderate pants those three just absolute paragons of the community doing bat reps christian did like a world tour where he went around like Playing everybody doing bat reps and now they're doing some tts stuff and just sort of like challenging It's just that sort of like cross pollination Like you're seeing awesome players play like cool people from across the world on this this humble little youtube channel And uh, yeah, so just just shout us to pants mafia Very nice. Love it. Awesome Tyler your pick of the week. Why don't you let me do my pick of the week last? Okay, that's that'll leave that'll leave in some hobby That's fine. We'll do that. Uh, my pick of the week is actually, uh, richard gray He put up part two of his painting actually a 40k thing But it doesn't really matter because it's more just the lessons richard gray has a channel on youtube for those of you Not familiar with richard's work. He's one of the best painters in the world He is absolutely amazing One of my personal painting heroes and idols and the fact that he has now decided to start putting content Out on youtube as well. Um, they are very long episodes. They are just him talking as he takes you through exactly what he does to paint Uh, I will the the most recent one is linked. He takes you through a lot of different Theories and concepts and recipes and everything else as he's working there and just you know really Shows you how to achieve extremely and well what he's painting is according to him extremely high tabletop Let's be honest for most of us. It would actually be display Because that's the nature of richard gray um, but his he's a master of understanding lighting and color and the way paint works and uh texture and everything else It's it's a masterclass every episode and I couldn't recommend it enough So if you're interested at all in painting as a part of this hobby, uh, go check it out Say go Yeah, well said. Yeah, he's incredible Okay, so a few picks of the week We've got a was coach's latest talking 3.0 with constantinos. He stole our guest events We were going to have constantinos on and do a blades of corn show Uh, it's incredible constantinos knowledge of corn is it's hard to beat The man knows his corn So if you're if you want to see what you can do with that faction right now 3.0, definitely check that show out Very nice. It is. Uh, everything will be linked down in the description Uh, so hobby time. Tyler, do you just want to do we want to jump straight into this? Is that where you want to go? Well, let's jump straight into that. Yeah, this is going to be the other. Yeah, I don't so I'm going to try to form complete sentences here Uh, my brain has been in shock all day So I Stepped outside this morning and I had a box from Vince I he had asked me for my mailing address a week or two ago and I had no idea why And I get the box inside and I start to open it. It's a bunch of bubble wrap Uh unwrap the first piece of bubble wrap And none other than a beautifully painted little piggy Falls out of it a gorgonzola So I immediately text Vince asking What have you done? because I don't know what's going on And so I call him And thankfully he answers And he tells me about a culprit that he has in the scheme Uh, none other than Anthony Pocastro. Of course, you know, he's always good candidate for crazy Horse in the chat. Yes, absolutely crazy horse in the in the chat. Yeah And so again, I'm both on the phone and Proceed to learn This doesn't I don't know. I don't want to I don't I don't know how to talk about this because it's very Uh, yeah I can tell the story if you want let me you want to do it. I know I'm not going to do this very well No, that's fine So here's the story. Tyler had some beautiful armies and for various reasons had had had to get rid of them So he was currently without army but playing a lot and he'd been playing a lot of iron jaws And I had always told him he should play iron jaws and he's been playing iron jaws and really enjoying it and so Tyler I owe a lot both for stepping in for tom as well as helping me out in several other ways I'm deeply indebted to the man for my entire life And so mr. Pocastro Anthony contacted me and said Hey, if I Can score an iron jaws army Would you paint it up for tyler? I said sure Uh, it was probably a little longer conversation than that, but I said sure and um So I did make anthony assemble them. I will say that openly Uh, but he was nice enough to do that and then he boxed them up and shipped them to me Uh, I painted the army. Um, there will be a fun video coming out about this in a couple weeks Um, I did record everything so you can see how I painted the whole army And I also did that just so tyler would literally have a video visual reference in case He needs to ever have anybody paint anything else all the steps are there So people know how to recreate this scheme, but I also thought it would be a fun video because I uh Painting an army is always a fun thing to do as a video and uh, it was all in yellow I wanted to do my take on the classic gw yellow iron jaws But not make them look so bright and I don't want to say dumb But, uh, the regular yellow iron jaws just don't like Cartoonish, right? Yeah, thank you. That's thank you. That's the perfect word. I wanted them to look much more like Gritty and brutish and like they're actually people who fight So they are amazing Thank you. They turned out so well Uh, so yeah, so tyler's got an army now. There are actually two Uh mall crushes they I don't I don't have them both in this picture because for various reasons you'll see in the video How I did how it's gonna happen. There's a there's there's some fun stuff that happens there Why the one mall crush is not in this picture, but they're they're both now painted with tyler So that's that's awesome. This This community man. Come on Meff, what the hell what like This is absurd I mean That's awesome It couldn't happen to it like I mean I joke that you're the godfather of aos content and and you you don't take the Take the term but you've done a lot for this community Those early scurvy and wells and kind of like a rallying cry for some of this stuff I it couldn't happen for a better guy, honestly, so I'm very This this makes me happy and I Just hearing about this Like curiously living through my my friends in the community Yeah, my brain was literally constantly repeating wtf the like for good three hours just on repeat like just like I don't understand Reality. Anyway, I don't I don't mean I don't know how to react to it. I'm kind of overwhelmed today by this I mean it is very you know to to folks like us something like this gesture is is beyond meaningful And I'm deeply appreciative While pollcaster and vince decided to do It's not deserved. So I'm kind of sitting uncomfortably with it, but but I'm very grateful for it It's a phenomenal army. I love iron jaws vince has been telling me. Yeah, I need to play them for years To have an army painted by someone who doesn't paint people's armies This is not something vince does It's very yeah, it's Now you gotta you gotta go to nash con and beat best painted like beat his army Tyler's not joining us at nash con because originally we were going to surprise him with it at the tournament like just be like You know, oh here. We brought an extra army for you. Oh, it's yours. You know, like this is one of the the lessons math Never dared to miss nash con Weird things Yeah, yeah, no fair fair anyway. So yeah, there you go. So that was that was the big secret project I was working on obviously I couldn't talk about it because I was there but Hilariously as I pointed out there was a couple shows we did where I left some of the models around behind me in the shot Like in here like a david lynch film. Yeah, exactly So that people could go back and be like, oh was there the whole time? Yeah. Yeah, so there you go fantastic Uh, so anyways, yeah, so that's the that's the iron jaws army. I hope you get lots of good play out of it and enjoy it there, buddy Uh, oh, yeah, quit building trees and start smashing and bashing trees. That's right. Let's go Beyond excited So, yeah, and like I said, all of it's recorded for a video. So it'll you'll people will be able to if you like the scheme and want your own Uh, dirty yellow iron jaws. It's it's uh, you can you can follow the steps and join in the fun. So there you go um It was not an army in 24 hours. I will tell you that much We've been talking about this secret project for weeks like more than a month. It seems like Well, you know, we don't run on actually like I am yeah, I believe I was I I think I might have been working on it during ranta thought man. I'm pretty sure when I was on I think it was right off screen. I was working on it. I'm pretty sure I don't I donated during your segment Oh, that's insane. I'm so naive like I feel with all of this Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is what I was painting during the rant with amazing. Yeah, I had to make sure I didn't pull it up into camera Ever, right? So, yeah, fantastic Yeah, there you go. All right So, well, you're more than welcome tyler and I hope you enjoy And I'm not looking forward to seeing you at some tournament sometime soon with them You got to go beat him with the army as like like on the table, but then also in the painting competition The two of you are like the top of the list. I can't I've never played a game with either of you Which is absurd. That is somehow seems wrong. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna correct that Uh for my hobby time, um The uh, it's been a obviously I finished all that up and shipped that out. That was actually done last week But um, it's been very busy. I got my second rat done for rat cat for my rat cast and I'm working on my third I've got the third one's armor almost done Maybe like 20 minutes left on the armor for the red plates and then it's all the non-metallic steel And then once you get that done, then it's just slam dunk a rune from there. It's just a little little tiny detail So, um, I've got this scheme down now to about like I'm not doing the bases I figured out the bases took a long time So I'm just gonna do all the bases at once at the end Because I think that because the bases I can mass produce. So I've got them down to maybe like 12-ish hours Something like that 10 12-ish hours. That's actually pretty doable So, um, I'm hoping if I practice on enough of these little guys when it comes time to paint the drakoffs and the dragon riders and stuff That I'll I'll be able to go Then it won't be that much longer Um, I mean it's still a normal storm cast on the back of them. Then I just have to add a monster in right Uh, so Yeah, there we go. So that's so third rat in the pipeline I'm coming along. I'll have a whole unit of vindictors pretty soon in weaker two Are you like No, we're gonna say buddy Are you using storm vermin heads for those because those like the actual like the nice right on like I don't know if it shows. Wow. This is I mean, I thought the proportions would be whack But like they're not no they're storm vermin have big heads Honestly, almost too big. I had to use very particularly like this is one of the female bodies right And like you have to use kind of the smaller heads for the females This is actually one of the bigger ones that I didn't really notice until I put her head on And I was like, oh geez that actually looks kind of too big So on the rest of them I have the sort of smaller Head. Yeah, storm vermin heads are big. Um, So, yeah, they fit right on great. Yeah, they're chunky like on the on the dude bodies because the dude frame is slightly bigger Uh, they fit. I mean just like aces perfect. It's exactly the right size Will skig be the cell cellstone prime I will skig will be in the army. Yes 100. Um, that the whole the whole army is because of skig um, and and all of that uh The uh, will I have rat dragons? Yes. I mean, there'll be dragons. It'll just be rats writing them because it's a storm cast army It's not like fall into chaos or anything like that. It's it's redeemed skaven. So they are good right, uh, and so like I've got to be careful how much Skaveny crap I integrate because they wouldn't like the dragon would still be the dragon It was a redeemed skaven given amount, right? He didn't right So like it'll be more through freehand patterns or stuff like that skig will either be on a toralon a Star drake or he'll be the knight Draconis or you know something like that. He'll be he'll be one of the mounted guys So, uh, there you go. Oh, no, I get her like write notes in This is a future setting to our game, right? Yeah, right. Like yeah, I've got nobody gives a crap about my narrative But I do have a whole Well, like I do have a whole story I'm going to write up and put in a little booklet that I take with the army like this will be a super tryhard army as to how Skig led a bunch of skaven to be redeemed and stuff like that. So You hear that everybody, uh, vince venterella confirmed narrative player. Yes, exactly. God sting Right and donnie rongo says so you can't have a celestate rat on vermin drake. I mean, I can yeah exactly like I It wouldn't be it would still be the normal dragon now That's not to say I can't make little modifications or stuff like that or speak through the color palette Like I'm gonna have some of them with lightning arcing from them and all the lightning arcing out of my storm cast Is going to be green just as like a manifestation of The skaven still make green lightning, you know just little touches like that, right? Right, right Yeah, any who Yeah, cool. Uh, so that's what I've been working on. Uh, good stuff I also got a bunch of videos made because I had to because I've gotten very busy weeks ahead of me. So Um, so as I got some some videos loaded up Uh, meh, what about you man? What's been your what's been your hobby time? So, uh, I actually for the first time since January 2020 Have put paint on a physical model, but not just one. Uh, oh Three models. Oh Physical paint put on them within the last week just color blocking right now. It's all right some bar geists and uh And I'm not a good painter, but gosh darn it. I uh, I put paint on a brush and I put that paint on models. So That's eight. That's that's fantastic and I applaud it. There is nothing wrong with that Uh, even even some base coats is still painting. You know what they look better than right now meh If I'm sure of they look better than they did when they were great plastic, brother So, yeah, right on you're here. You have already made them made them better. They're battle ready Uh, there we go So Right clicker guys. I'd be remiss about it mentioned, uh, attended fly monkey over the weekends at witch talk, kansas An amazing event. I just wanted to thank the to charles fox. It was his first two-day air Charles is a longtime watcher of the show He did an amazing job with it. So thank you, charles And also another longtime viewer. Sean sear was my first game Sean Gave me a hell of a game. Yeah, he beat my butt with his legion of the first prince Played it incredibly well Cairo's bellicor bloodthirst of instant st rage wrath of corn blood thirst sturds and pinks two by five dagos Portal and live swarm. I think that was your list, Sean And of course all the nonsense summoning that you're getting every turn, you know, just five pinks popping up every turn Just for just for funsies Uh, great game Great guy, great list But the the tournament overall was was really excellent. So thank you, charles. Nice. Well speaking of tournaments Let's bring up the event list and talk about that. Yeah, here we go. So we have a new event list Uh, make sure that's centered properly there There we go. All right. So yeah, we've got some august september events now. Obviously the world is in flux Uh, and you know, things are moving around but nonetheless Some events obviously this weekend is nash con which we're all excited about But beyond that, of course, which I think there is actually a spot or two open for so if anybody's gonna be around the Nashville area And you're looking for one of the most awesome events in the u.s It's uh, it's right there. Uh, but what are these events? Do you want to you want to highlight there? There's a lot of good ones Yeah, well, yeah this weekend we got gateway open ash con king in the north of norway and then the polis team championship I did want to give a shout out to melbourne gt. That was the newest one that we added So smorgan he had pointed this one out. That's going to be happening. I think september 11th and 12th So, yeah, folks can find that on facebook Yeah, just a bunch of good events. We also had quite a few Last weekends. I mentioned flying monkey Uh, I don't think you guys have heard about the cities of sigmar finisium list that took out The tournaments. I mean there were a number of fascinating lists over the weekend And I don't want to do at the hour that I did last week events No, I mean here's what I'll say the results in the first weekend of like really big tournaments Yeah, what it told me was despite Some obvious problems and there are a few obvious problems like archon is problem number one Okay, we all know he's out there. He's a big bad. He needs to be Upped in points and that's fine. Okay, and we know there's also a problem in go trek And marathi less or so, but they're both there like it's I rank those as like one two Three right as in my problems. That's my relative assignment of problematic problematism there She's perfectly fine without mind raiser. Trust me. I've got the data Sure. Well, I mean she'll be back to she'll be back to reneg to whenever we get the FAQ, but sure But but I I hear what you're saying at only rend one without mind raiser. She she can bounce Um, she's she's an honor off switch at the moment according to my last eight games or so Sure, sure But uh, but you know what we saw was actually a pretty healthy meta Like you look at these big events you look at the top tens It was a very wide swath of armies There was of course the usual suspects up there, you know, like yeah, there was zin chin Yeah, there was some like thunder lizard seraphon is clearly coming into preeminence, which I'm not opposed to that's the most fun Sort of thunder lizard version to play against or sorry a seraphon to play against because it's just big stompies I think it's super fun is what I always played um, but You know lots like those usual suspects are up there, but there were some daughters lists as well There were some cities lists you mentioned the finisium list taken it out Bill suza winning it with an fec list taken a taken out the big pulling a big 5-0 You had multiple slanish lists going 4-1 and placing in the top 10 You had several like iron jaws lists being up there Uh, the or I should souble like grave lords not a fluk. Nope. Not just piloted by brendan Like that's right soubleight did well like there was quite a lot of different lists. There was a couple stormcast lists running off of like Not a book. I guess is what I would say like Sort of some cobble together nonsense that they have right now And a couple stormcast lists did really well. Um, I mean there's more. I'm not mentioning everything when you look across the top 10 There was some nergal in there Uh, like there was a lot of different lists occupying the top 10 and that's always how I I judge the healthiness of the meta I don't just look at the top three Because like bill susa won with fec. That's a statement on bill susa Right sure fec is still in a bad place overall, but it shows that like if you're that good I mean bill susa is one of the best players in the us probably in the world world I mean, he's he's an incredible player We're lucky tom isn't here because if tom was here. He would mention that he beat bill susa on the stream Adepticon 2019 But I yeah, but at any rate, um The I'll do it for him. That's just for you tom Uh in one of the closest games tom has ever had I'll point out Uh, but you know, that's like it shows just that like hey look if you are A good pilot in this meta You can pilot your way to victory and often the top three has decided more by luck Like exactly who they played against exactly how the dice broke out Like there's lots of different things like that But the top 10 is where you see the health of the meta emerge Thank you. Nick are mentioned that there were some ogres up there as well. Yep 100 percent there were multiple ogres across all tournaments Yep, even like some blood gullet, even though it looked a little more like, uh Boulderhead, but it was actually a blood gullet list right still Yeah, blood gullet took out old town throwdown and then a carriage run list I think was in second at that one 56 players. Yep And then even at an avingori list that was up there top five Yeah, on the the cities of sigmar lists. I did would just want to go in and just give it I'm gonna go into detail. Yeah, please. It's one that you look at I mean often ECM list being in a top 10 is truly one of the most insane things that has ever been reported in the news Yeah, yeah crazier than like then pre-book seraphon adepticon, right? Like sure, right? Yeah, like crazier than that. Yeah I met uh, james Saw james tapia and met his friends. Uh, james tapia, you know, like awesome guy in the community Uh, he showed up friday night when scott's fool and I were getting a game at my friend scott and yeah met jeremy Jeremy was the one who took out the tournament with they were telling us about it that night And you hear it and you're like, um, not, you know, uh, free two. It'll be fine anointed on frost art Anointed on frost art arkham tome ghost mist. Yep And then the hurricane with the battle mage amber tide The the real key piece of the list three assassins. Yep, three assassins Six attacks. Yeah, I'm modified. I think i'm modified six to hit the three mortals I don't believe I can't I'd have to look and see are you guys might know up hand Whether you have to specify in advance in your list where they're gonna pop out which unit or if you get to choose during the game I didn't get that chance to ask jeremy that but Three by ten phoenix guard two by ten shadow warriors in the scourge render chariot warlord vanguard hunters with heartlands Yeah, just he took out the three Archeon whether they're more than three three the three top placing archie on list or three of the top placing archie on list Sure, uh, the host arcana and his last three games all three archeons. He took them out uh host arcana reapers of vengeance And then i'm forgetting the third one. What was the third one? Maybe james stop because uh archie on list. I'm forgetting which one it was but yeah Three archeons with this list to take out the tournament. Yeah, and the key was the asset No, you do not have to dictate with the assassins, by the way, which is why they're so good You could just say they're in reserve and then they can pop out of any unit you want that has They have to be one wound models basically at five or more one wound models They can pop out any like that. So obviously things like phoenix guard work um, but the key is then if they die They turn on the phoenix yams plus one to hit and wound ability, right? So it's like they pop out they get slaughtered And then and then the rest of the phoenix yard is like No, my pet human It was actually my friend dan his uh, so yeah, my dan had the other reapers of vengeance So two reapers of vengeance and one host arcana And it's pretty much, you know, the host arcana moose that we've been seeing right and the last, you know For quite a while now Frost art phoenix anointed on frost art phoenix is no joke as a piece like No, it's a super strong piece. It's a really strong piece right now So allowing that into like order wherever you can get it is isn't a bad option And you've got an army that plays with it really nicely. So Yeah, I mean neg one to wound is such a potent buff in the current meta, right? So, right Yeah, right. Yeah So, yeah, exciting times Unexpected but a great list great list great guy. Um There was one of the slinish list that when I looked at it and I literally went How this isn't one in four, that's what I'll say. So whoever you are That piloted the list with four units of pain bringers if you watch the show Please comment below. I would love the most detailed, but you can write me a novel I will read it. Okay I want to know how your games work because I saw his path to victory as well Like I actually I I saw four art lists He the five lists he played against he went for one he lost in round five against a host arcane ms each Which I was like, thank god. There's still some sense in the universe, right? But um But like I mean he beat real lists. He didn't have a bunny run. It was those were real lists. He was playing Okay And I I just like I I do not know what in the universe happened, but uh This person just became my personal hero. I want you all to know that so Yeah, good stuff Good on you. Evan Miller, sigval gludos lord of pain keeper four by five pain bringers battle reg or lord What's his list like and just Multiple pieces that I have said are trash Yep Is this is this you getting close to admitting you were wrong or absolutely not I want to know what dark packed What sort of warlock like incantation What forgotten lost gods did this man seal a blood packed with To to make this list win I mean he is no, I mean that it had to be excellent play and full kudos to him like a joking aside That is that is a great play. There's summoning is strong. You know, it's just not it is But I like what I'll say is the it's it that list going for one Shows more than anything what I'm talking about that this list is Or sorry this meta. I apologize. Yeah Is open and that if you like player skill is largely determinative right now One of the greatest things about a new addition for me or or like a new ghp Is there's that period of time where people are trying to figure it out and like There there's they're not locked in the confirmation bias of this is The list, you know this list win the tournament so that I I need to play that list to have my best chances Right now you get to actually like kind of spread your wings and Try some stuff and because the nature of the game the interactivity level Player skill is showing through a lot more because those extra decision-making steps Yeah, so I mean this is You know, you know aim for the moon everybody like this is this is your time if someone's taking on tournaments with an issue And you can do it. You got a troll list. You've always wanted to see go to the top This is the time you've got four one can be in your sights. Okay, you can do it Someone someone earlier asking a chat when is the time of the croc score? Maybe it's now. I don't know Just close this out because we've been talking about the others the nationalists that I saw Jacob Brandon scott-six hosts summer slaughter He was the top 10 sick vault senessa contorted epitome 22 bliss barb archers Wow two secret chariots two by five slick blades five seekers to drop Good on you Jacob and evan. Yeah a little more of what I would have expected like that's I've run a pretty close version of that list And it's like it is it's the finesse game list I've talked about right where you can win with it That one I understood how it's winning because like I've played a pretty close version of that list before senessa was available I think she's a great tool for it On like I think senessa is such a wonderful addition to that list because it's this sort of like finesse mobile Thing that just like can go do the work where it needs to and it's very hard to pin down and like In a sort of movement objective battle tactic world. It's actually quite strong So like that that that list I love that list. I think like seekers with the secret chariots the battle line pull it up It yeah, good for that like that one Worked in my brain if you're good and you like that type of play Which is a particular type of play by the way Which we'll talk about they're very johnny you might say it is a very johnny type of play. Yeah, you got it. That's exactly right um The um Means that like you you can win with that list, right? Yeah, right? All right. Awesome. Well gentlemen, shall we get to our main topic then? Let's do it. All right. My body is ready so Uh main topic bring up that presentation Ta-da psychographic profiles in Warhammer, okay So, um, I am excited about this I am really really excited about Psychographic profiles and what this means and what we're going to talk about tonight. We are going to tear out all the armies Don't worry. This is going to be super fun. I promise everyone Hey, what's your spirit with the tier list? That's right. That's right Uh, so tuck in for this one. I expect a lot of Conversation in the chat about what people are thinking we're getting wrong uh, so Uh Okay, but what is this thing we're talking about? I'm going to lay some ground Let me lay some some groundwork here for everybody before we begin So what's a psychographic profile? Well, it's obviously a marketing term originally, right? It's for marketing and communication And the psychographic profile as applied to gamers specifically timmy johnny and spike were originally used in magic r&d Um, I'm going to credit them to marvin rosewater because I think he's the person who probably formalized it Although I think that as he says in his original story, they kind of had been using this colloquially In concept even before he codified it, but I mean he's the one who codified it so Right, so we'll give it to him Mark rosewater is a paragon of design knowledge Like if people haven't watched his 20 lessons from, you know, 20 years of game design from the gdc conference several years back it is like It's just it's just a thing every single person who if you believe you should you want to do game design in Anyway, you need to go watch this talk period. It's just it is lessons. I think about all the time Right, or if you just want to pretend that you know more about games than you do just watch it and just regurgitate every like Also good But psychographic profiles the way they're used in marketing is because they're really asking different sorts of questions Right to to build a sort of persona and the questions that they're asking in terms of gaming Is what motivates the player to play? What kinds of things do they enjoy and what keeps them playing? All right, so it's not asking what they like But why they like it? What do they want what it's really plumbing for Is psychological utility All right, each of us draws positive or negative psychological utility from activities we participated right and like this is really simple to understand because in the completely bunk Myers-Briggs type of testing right everybody of course defines themselves by those things by the way that test isn't real It's all made up. Um not that it can't tell you things about yourself, but it's not a scientific thing. So whatever Um, it's not even a soft science really. Yeah, exactly. It's just whatever. Um The I've got a chip on my shoulder a mile high about it's astrology for slightly nerdy people Right, but the most common thing people always get from it is the extrovert introvert thing Right and there is some truth to the to the concept of extrovert. It's not so easy to put people in those camps, right? But the idea is some people gain energy They seem to get more enthused by spending time with other people, right? It doesn't tire them out They they're happy for it. It builds them up. They get more positive more excited It sort of adds spoons would be the modern Colloquial way of saying it right whereas some people spending time around a lot of others talking interacting Draws away spoons, right? That's right. Psychological utility. And so when we think about this in terms of armies It's not what you like. I think this model looks cool or I like to to you know Uh, I think that orcs are neat. That's not what we're asking, right? Like that's all fine You can have all that stuff. That's all still part of the world But what we're saying is why do you like the thing? What's the experience the expression the the goal? Right, what do you want out of engaging with this thing? right Uh, so there we go. Okay Now let's talk about the three individual ones. Um, but before I get into the three individual ones Math, I know you have a long history of playing magic as well Like what are your just any any thoughts on the basic psychographic sort of profiling or anything? I missed before we get into this I'll define all three of these. Well, I think you touched a lot on on it and with uh, you know, sort of like Utility of it like you are less I think in a sort of practical sense You are less fatigued when you're leaning into your play style Maybe maybe this is just the power of confidence and self-actualization But like when you are in You know that zone that flow state with your army I think it's because you're kind of resonating with that that psychographic profile You know if you're playing in magic that you know, if you're playing a deck you hate it shows in your play It just you know, like I'm playing this because it wins and I hate it and it just it always shows It often shows in the high tense moments because you're you're spending more sort of mental bandwidth to pilot something you dislike Then something you like That's exactly right. It's exactly right. Like I think one of the reasons this is so important I mentioned at the top of the show is because you uh you When you play things that aren't aligned to your Psychographic profile and by the way, it's very rare to have somebody sit a hundred percent in one of these like it's a spectrum It's a spectrum, of course, but like, you know So most people are like some from a and some from b lean more into a little bit of b Whatever, but whatever when you play something that's completely not aligned to your your style of play You're just going to have less fun. You will play less. Well, you'll enjoy the experience less things will tend to be more negative Stephen Powell says I'm missing vorthose. No, I am not I am not missing vorthose or melvin Vorthose and melvin are appreciation profiles. They are not mutually exclusive with this They are they are testing for a different type of thing They are not testing for the same thing a psychographic profile is testing for they are valid Like melvin and vorthose are very real Okay But uh in as much as any of this is real, of course, this is all sort of post-enlightenment categorization But uh, but they're different. They're not psychographic profiles because they're they're literally just testing you for a different sort of thing It's not play with those. It's more about design Like what you appreciate. That's why there are appreciation profiles because they're literally testing what you appreciate innately about the thing you are viewing do you read the little quotes at the bottom of the car Don't you like that's what they're looking. That's not the yeah Yeah, what's the elevator version of each just for reference? Well, let's get into it. Let's talk about that. Oh, no I meant I meant of melvin. I think melvin and vorthose sure So uh vorthose is sort of the the very narrative type of player It would be the best way I would describe it in warhammer terms, right? But it's the person who enjoys the broader vorthose appreciates the broader spectrum of what this thing Sits within they actually think they're a planeswalker at the table or that they are If they put down negash or archeon their archeon right now, right? They enjoy piloting like they like the special character because they like to Play the special character or they enjoy the greater world or the narrative of the story of it These have lots of permutations sort of in the sub levels of it But vorthose as an appreciation profile you appreciate the larger tapestry is the easiest way I would say it Of the construct of the fantasy world and this individual things place within it. You're looking at I've got marty. Orlando firmly in my head right now. Sure 100% Yeah, the dismissive magic joke is like You're the one who reads the card texts at the bottom like you read the quote like ha ha ha Like it was worth those the yes like me doing a whole narrative for skig story and using the n-world stuff is super Yeah, yeah peak peak vorthose melvin is I'm an entj fence. Please predict my astrological signs Whichever one is full of crap john, that's the one Sounds like an aries to me Yeah, the the melvin Is a little more interesting because what they appreciate is a little more on the mechanical sign, but they appreciate a sort of mechanical Symmetry jazz Where everything seems to like logically work together There's a classic card. That's an example of this That's like a 4 4 4 4 that when it comes into play does 4 damage distributed any way you want Amongst any number of target creatures or players, right? And so it's like everything about this card hums together, right? It's also a lava worm monster that spits fire. So you're like, okay. Yes Everything about this there's a repetition of the numbers not that that's necessarily part of it But it kind of helps, right? It all seems to align everything fits here. It this all logically congeals So melvin is the person most sensitive to ludonarrative dissonance Right like if you read something and it's like This is the greatest warrior that has ever walked the world Any who have stepped against him in battle have been struck down By an one blow of his incredible sword Stats three attacks four threes low-cellison on foot it's like Yeah, no, they're like I always think of melvin like um Uh like christian bail's character in american psycho like when he's at the car like he's looking at the car It's like the elegance of the car. It's like like the the print of this the way this all comes to get like that business card. Yeah 100% Yeah, yeah, just like That scene is melvin. Yes, absolutely. Hunter is so good Why i'm here That was beautiful. All right, uh Okay, ludo. What a diso what ludonarrative dissonance when the Story does not align with the mechanics of what is actually being taken normally a video game term of like the the meta narrative Is about not killing people or finding your humanity and then you're playing it in like a bullet hell Shooter where you're just walking through wasting piles of bodies, right? Like The gameplay does not match the narrative. That's the classic example of it, right? Like the last of us is probably one of the worst things for ludonarrative dissonance Um the maybe the second one. I don't know. Anyways Okay, timmy. I've picked particular models to represent all of these with the help of other folks uh, so timmy Cabbage is the mega boss on ma crush. This is which by the way in case it's not super clear. I am like 75 timmy yeah, timmy is is um Timmy is the most stereotyped one. I think of all of the But also when you were like shopping around like what model like unanimously voted Everybody said yeah, like no like the other ones. There's like some yeah, maybe like no 100 Yeah, yeah But yeah, go ahead, but he's just the winner, right? He's just the winner just unquestionably. Yeah the uh like So timmy wants to experience something He likes big monsters big effects big spells Timmy plays for the journey not the destination this often gets sort of Misapplied that timmy is a bad player or doesn't play to win like timmy's still trying to win It's just the win isn't as important as the experience like if timmy has a boring game and wins That's a worse experience than a really interesting game where cool moments happened where he lost like that Is a psychologically more rewarding experience If like if the mega boss got to go into a unit and just blow it up and just like did all the damage But then timmy ends up losing the game. He's like, okay, that was a fun game. Yeah, great game. Yeah, right And like I this is me to it like so much of this is me My most sad thing is when I play a big cool Awesome monster and then like it dies before it gets to go be a big cool awesome monster Then I'm sad about the game like even if I win I'm like Well, well your dissonance felt with with gargants is that you're a timmy and you wanted the timmy experience with your Sons of behemoth and you got a little bit more of the johnny experience, which we'll we'll go on to define too 100% 100% math. I agree. Um, I will say that the Aos is A timmy game a timmy game like if you were we were to zoom all the way out It would be more timmy than anything else And the and the most timmy that it's ever been right now. Yeah It's because we're in the year of the monsters, right? Yeah. Yeah Like cinderfall gaming says timmy uses finest hour on a grot war boss charging a bloodthirster to try and kill it Absolutely That's a super timmy move like yes Like the the the bloodthirsters at like five wounds It's highly unlikely that he's gonna get there but he's gonna take the shot right take the shot Yeah, yeah timmy is the hold my beer and watch this guy like Yeah Uh, don't worry kurran will connect it for you like he said he's not sure how to connect it to war hammer That's what we're doing here. So yeah to me like if you like Armies that feature, uh, I would say like more straightforward tactics So a lot of destruction falls under this category, but we'll get there when we start tearing out the armies but like the mega boss or Um, a lot of ogres can play like this, especially like bcr, right? You know thunder lizard seraphon can play like this, right? It doesn't have to always be monsters. Sometimes it can just be big damn heroes, right? Or like things where you're just like rattling off big giant Spells or effects or things like that negash has a certain timmy quality to it because you're just like You know like the negash who cues up the like the spirit bomb with all of the arcane bolts and then just With the sword like that's a very timmy You know negash experience like it doesn't have to be like smashy it can be Like like again, it's the big experience. It's the timmy cares about the experience They don't necessarily care about they want to experience something They want to experience the big effect the big the big drama the big That's such a good word Such a good word big drama that's you nailed it right there Because the other thing that timmy is known for is timmy has the highest tolerance for randomness Okay, so like Skaven can end up being a very timmy army because it has all these random effects and a doom will blow up in your face Right. Yeah, and and that's a very timmy thing right because they'll risk it for the biscuit Because yeah, sometimes it'll go wrong and they'll be like, oh shucky darn's my thing exploded Right my but but at the same time if they use the arch warlock thing and then he blows up And he does like 18 mortal wounds to himself and rockets himself into the stratosphere That's also an awesome moment, right like to timmy. That's amazing Like it went against him, but it was memorable Right So evocative things that happen from randomness that are sort of you cannot plan They're sort of emergent moments are a very timmy thing, right I'm not sure if this is you guys, but I've always thought of timmy as related to the social contract Because maybe you were talking about experiences and you know, like I really want my opponent to have a good time on the table As as much as possible And that I find timmy armies to elicit that more often than not Timmy players man Like you're going to know a timmy player when you're playing because they're there for the experience They're you're going to run into not that you're not going to run into a timmy player on the top tables But like if you run into a timmy on mid or bottom tables your last day You're going to have a blast because they're there for the drama and the excitement and they're like Like the experience of the game and they just want to see cool cool stuff happen, right? Yeah, right and you know like Again, they're also the ones who in general they care about losing sort of the least Because that's not really what they're about now that at the same time Again, everybody likes to win games. That's not saying that it's just that like their experience isn't contingent They're fun. Let me say it that way isn't their their utility that they draw from playing isn't contingent on Winning, okay. Yeah a hundred percent. Yeah Okay, cool. So that's timmy like again, it's it's a very popular archetype It's what a lot of us are because this is a dad game and you know these make great moments and timmy likes to manufacture big moments all right Johnny for this I've picked the lore seeker Uh could have also picked the score seeker the score seeker. Yes Yep, uh johnny wants to express something about himself by playing the game often his cleverness or intelligence or Whatever creativity his creativity, right? Yeah, something like that, right? Um, but they're trying to express something about themselves Like timmy is very external looking right their fun is coming from sort of the things that happen out there in the world That's what they're drawing utility from Johnny is very like internal looking and what I mean by that is like johnny wants to see His own brilliance manifest, right? They're like they're like bond villains like dr. Doom, right? They've got like plans and meta plans and stuff like that You know johnny has again lots of different derivations, but johnny likes unusual or overlooked choices and combos Uh, johnny loves list building and picking the exact right units Like if you're the type of person who agonizes over the last 200 points of a list Because you think that making the wrong decision in that last 200 points will be the difference between you winning and losing You're johnny. It's like that's the easiest self identification, right? I actually had a I like I had to yell at tom about this because he gets caught in this rabbit hole And he was going back and forth and back and forth on like 150 points And I was like it does not matter. They're there vince the perfect 200 points are there Right chat was wondering what I am. I'm a johnny. I'm a johnny with like a like a good dash of timmy because yeah I want to express something. I want to my cleverness A johnny looks at a model or like a unit that we just like we get fascinated with we're like this Like we think this model is cool or we think this war school does something neat and we're like I can make that work Right Celestine prime, baby If if if somebody's if you've ever had this thought in your head Everybody's sleeping on this one, but I am going to show you how I got the tech Johnny uses the word tech. It's their favorite word like this great tech. This is a good tech piece like right like Yes, 100 Right there with you mad Johnny timmy all the way, baby Yeah, well, I mean that's the thing is like like so in for the magic of the gathering crowd like I loved My my deck was uh was natural order Uh progenitors near the end or survival man, which are very control very timmy style decks, but they have that big flash finish You know, I'm loyal retainers for an emre cool to win the game or bringing out Uh progenitus, which is a 10 10 for 10 like exalted or so just bunkers can't be killed can't be stopped like so The timmy finish with the johnny. I'm gonna pretend like I understood everything you just said there Right. Yeah, it makes complete sense. You're johnny in your way into the big moment, right? But you're still that's leading the way Yeah, in in warhammer terms This is somebody who has like a very careful power pair built kind of list where they're trying to like execute on a specific strategy If if you like there's another johnny thing is like having exact plays that you're going to execute at certain points, right? You you gravitate toward armies where the skill differential the skill ceiling pushes really high They love toolbox armies. Yes toolbox. Yeah, you want to have an answer for everything like benjamin sabba strikes me as a Very johnny esk player right where he's writing out beforehand all of his spell casters the two spells They have the you know the luminous big list right of everybody goes in this exact order This tries to cast this this back stops this then this then this then this then this right? That's the sort of very johnny thing, right? He's exit. He has like like a salon. He has a plan And and johnny loves it when the the moment when his plan comes together, right? That's the moment because that's the moment where his cleverness is sealed Right. It's the sort of colombo. Uh, just one more thing And we never stop talking about it when we When we like do the thing it's the I told you so I told you this work We will jettison extra information from our minds the payoff is in the expression now I lesser talked about aspect of johnny is the creative johnny like the I think he really wants to Like this can be the really meticulous painter Johnny's because they're they're really trying to like it's not just that they want to paint the cool model or the big model They have a theme for the whole army. They're You know, I mean margolino, right? Like i'm just Like you you have like a theme for the army and you want to like when people look at it You want to tell them like this is how this all came together and like that's johnny, right? Yep Okay, so that's that's johnny, uh, and Yes, as as uh, like davis just said you fell for the classic blunder. Yeah, exactly That's that's johnny right there, right? Yeah Uh, okay And then finally spike So spike wants to prove something And what spike is usually trying to prove is that they're the best, okay? In whatever that means All right, like we all have got a little spike in us when we're playing a competitive game Right, it's always a little bit there because this is a game that has some kind of win condition So unless you're playing something that's literally completely narrative and almost doesn't have a normal win There's there's always a little bit of spike in all of us, right But what spike like traditional spikes really like is raw power Yeah, okay uh efficient units answers like You know or just hard questions Okay, like i'm going to ask hard questions that i know most people can't answer. That's a spike type of thing, right? You're locked in here with me, right exactly Yes Yes, um spike is happy to net list that doesn't bother spike at all like he doesn't There's a Most spikes unless they have a lot of johnny and them don't really care about like they don't need to feel like they originated a thing The list they don't need to figure out what the list is. Yeah, that doesn't matter who made the list I won with the list, right, right? This is on me I did this Look at me. Look at me I think spike is so timmy being them I think the most sort of stereotypical of it. I think spikes are the most Misunderstood agree. Uh, it's very important to remember that they want to prove something like you can like hey whoa is Pretty big timmy vibes and stuff like that, but you don't realize he has a very spike approach to ogres Yeah, yeah, like he he wants to prove that like he can go three and two with a bad army Like you can have a spike like Like it in elsewhere and like the standings because they just they want to prove it's about proving Yeah, what they want to prove is that this army is not total trash that I could do well with this I don't think i'm going to win the tournament, but I want to show that I can punch above Average, right, right? That's a win to spike, right? I can prove that i'm better than the average bear Right, right. Yes And spike loves the moment when they win when they prove whatever that thing is they're trying to prove Win doesn't necessarily mean when I say win, I don't necessarily mean win the game Although they can be one of the outcomes It can just mean when they win what they perceive to be them. They're they're trying to prove Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, they they take that objective off from you in just like that That big moment where they have they have like it's you know, they've they've grinded they've piloted They've grinded for this moment and they're like there now you're on the back ropes Now you have to deal with me like spike has that very I don't want to say like they have very assertive energy like spikes tend to be pretty assertive And it go ahead. No, I agree. Uh, and by the way, Jordan Blight said bcr ain't trash. No, no, it's not now It's a perfectly good list now, but but Hey, we'll spend a lot of time in the wilderness playing bcr when it was had no book and was Really looked down upon that's where the beard came in like that's how he grew it is There's not like it like in the woods. Yes So but like that's just it he stuck with it because he always because of that spike part of him It's you know, like I'm gonna prove that this army can can do well rain or something Right One description that stood out to me over the years and this might be obvious a lot of folks But I really appreciate the time I think it was rallying on one of your warmer weekly shows years ago Where he had said that you know when he's going to win tournaments he Takes lives that are not going to put him on the back foot on top tables Which is kind of an obvious statement But at the time I was in a mindset early on and coming back to warhammer that I didn't Submissionally appreciate that that's a you know, that's a psychological profile. That's a player type Spike was as mentioned the one that's often most misunderstood Uh, I was misunderstanding spike early on when I got back One of the nicest people you will ever play he will help you During the game. He does not mess around. He never tries to cheat A thing from that. I don't mean like cheat in the actual game like cheating with something I mean like he's never going to win because you Didn't like because you made a mistake and he just didn't mention it You know, I'm saying like like oh, I I didn't move this guy in the right way or I didn't use this ability I should have activated it. It was automatic, right or something like that. He'll be like, hey You need to activate that thing Spike can be very very self-critical because if spikes out to prove that they're the best And there's that shadow of the doubt or insecurity in their Pursuit of being the best and trying to prove that they're the best it throws shade on that that actualization Right, right, right. Yeah, they want you to be playing well as well because they want to beat you I want you at your best, right? Like I'm going to beat you at your best But like that's spikes aren't that's one thing that spikes get in the line You're right as often being like just whack sort of people and that's just not Actually true. Anyone can do that but all these all these archetypes have negative dark sides to them, right? Yeah, that's one thing that Tom often has said that I really appreciate an experience when we played the game at Nashcon I think it was first year in Nashcon that yeah, he doesn't want to win on his opponent getting things wrong And yeah experience. Anyway, I really appreciate that that you know, even among Some players who have that orientation sort of that Johnny spike, you know, they still have that ethos I don't think that's really cool. Yeah Exactly like whether you're mean or nice isn't a matter of your psychographic profile. It's a matter of you being a good person This is again, this is about what you draw psychological utility from right and and like in other words as it interacts with A game and a set of rules and the way that those rules play If you draw psychological utility from the suffering of others that has nothing to do with this. You're just you're just a jerk Right You're just a bad person Okay So now that we've set up the basics Okay, of what all these armies are or what all these, sorry, what are these types? There will be a quiz by the way chat. I hope you'll There is a quiz later. Everybody get ready. You should see the form in the comments. You can click on No, just if you're watching jack, I believe in you. You'll you'll get this Out of the show man All right, so now let's do it. Let's tear out the armies. So here I have Uh, all of the army books over to the side of the screen And then I have a timmy johnny and a spike now. You'll notice that I have also created a little I don't know Middle area ground right Where this is the timmy johnny area This is the johnny spike area and this is the the spike timmy area. Okay, so it circles back around Okay, yeah, so below spike is the spike timmy. Yes, correct. You got it. Yep I tried to make them they are color coded to the same colors But it's a testament to how your eyes read this pattern and it screws with your your Eyes ability to perceive color. This is none of them look like the same colors Uh, don't pardon the pun, but man, this is a different tier even for you with your power points Like We're trying Okay So What can be weird about spike in assessing is there is a quality to the army that Like that is predicated upon for a spike army So like an army that was like an army cannot be can become a spike army How are we dealing with that that would be like, you know, like An army that was formally great, you know, spike's not going to necessarily waste, you know What mentioned haywall is like kind of an exception but spike's not necessarily going to waste their time on it anymore Yeah, so in other words, what's the criteria here? Right because armies can fill fit under multiples And so my argument is if it fits under multiples, we'll put it in the middle one that makes the most sense We're going to talk about current state of the armies what they are right now Okay, perfect. Okay. So not what they were in the past, but how they play right now as we perceive them in 3.0 in their current book state and, uh, you know, we will go for the majority of how the book is uh The majority of how the book would be played if there's like one weird offshoot You understand what I'm saying? Like if there's this little dangler element of it That's like just okay. I guess it could kind of be if you leaned way way into it No weird way. Maybe it could play like this. We're gonna ignore those. We're talking about the ignore the outliers We're going we're we're dealing in aggregates here. All right. Yep. All right Cool So let's uh, let's grab an army here. Who shall we grab? Well, let's grab this one right up top Let's grab daughters of cane. All right. Where are the daughters of cane going? Spike I'm so I'm just so excited to hear this after having picked daughters that came back up in 3.0 I'd hear an argument for spike Johnny, but uh Get into spike. Yeah, I'm I'm with math here. I think daughters is one of the spikiest spike armies. I mean But uh murafi was literally the iconic I picked for For this right and like spike values efficiency in it's one of the things spike values, right is efficiency and power and like of the the sort of The whole book is super efficient. Like I don't know how else to say it, right? Like it was priced so low when it came out even after the points adjustments. It's still quite Quite reasonable Okay, they have like the cheapest best god monster like pound for pound right Um, maybe like archaion is is better, but you know what I'm saying archaion is definitively better, but sure He's in his own category. He's in his own weird category. Yes. Um, but like, you know, they're like The they they rely on double tapping bow snakes. I can't think of a more spiky strategy than Then upping the efficiency of an already two hyper efficient units and ramping them into ultra efficiency You know every other I think every other dock list that I saw that played over the weekend This is a little bit of ego talking, but uh, so forgive me But I think I was the only one playing 10 snake bows. Every other list was 15 snake bows Right. You guys look at the way to way to really like reign it in there I was telling everybody you're a paragon of self-control. I was telling everybody man. I'm expecting them sports votes Friendly dock right here Good guy dock player here Thanks all the difference The thing for me that really cinches uh d ok into in the spike is the lack of a really flashy piece that would That would scream, you know, that would pull it a little bit away from that Right, you know efficiency or whatever and again all these books because we're talking about something in the aggregate That can involve multiple plays now. Sometimes this will be a little gray but to me Daughters is like one of the spikiest of spikes right now and somebody said what if the points changed? Well, then the army might be different, right? But it would still it's still I think a very spike army And it has been for almost all of its existence. We're not talking historical. We're talking right now But like spike has always been the army you took if you wanted a pretty highly competitive army like since its inception It's been like a 60% win rate. It's a spike army Well, I love that you're the relevance at the beginning of this that you know An hour ago or whatever it was you said that like this I mean you can help think about the utility of what's happening right here is you can help people Hopefully recognize what psychographic profile they they have or lean towards while listening to his banter and then gravitate towards these armies that you think are You know in line with with your with your your profile and from there, you know Do your research look into the armies more in depth? It's a really great jumping off point or a good tiebreaker if you're stuck between two armies Agree that like the value to this is and we'll get to it because I'm going to share my own personal experiences With some of these but I completely agree math like you will have a better time in this game If you play the things that are aligned to you psychographically like it just you will find yourself having more fun weirdly, right? um, so yeah So my the the ongoing modest disagreement between vince and I and daughters came we'll have to wait till another show Uh, I I I I do find and I think it's supported by data that they are I think you're right. Generally. They are more spiked than anything But there's a big but uh, you know, like you look at jp ganas's data They're the one that's most oriented around I would say skill Among many of the top armies that that's kind of been born out. They are At massive glass cannon other than marathi everything in that army generally dies and it dies quickly if you make little mistake I mean all of my games were close over the weekend uh, pretty much all of them and They there are so many micro decisions Which is probably true with a lot of armies in the game But there are so many small decisions that if you Have made wrong decisions that you know you it cost you and you lose a unit Tyler that because of that doc by playing it allows you to prove That you're a very good player No, a hundred percent a hundred percent I suppose Wait, wait, we just figured out that tyler's actually secretly been the spike all along like scooby-doo that like it was Like the whole time like he's been the spike Like Spike's not necessarily interested in in like auto wins like that that's one of those misnomers Right, like yeah, yeah, that's not that's actually probably less fun to a spike Right, like there's lots of classic spike magic cards, but it's all like efficiency Like like spike doesn't mind they never want to be on the back Right, like they just never want to be on the back, but that's their that's a really great way They love things that are like even if they carry a cost They're fine with it as long as it's super good at its role Right and like yeah, so so the cost here is fragileness, but it's okay because it's super good at its role It does that thing it does like hyper efficiently They just need to you just minimize the penalty spikes like okay, I got I understand the penalty. I can minimize that out Right. Yeah, it's generally Right, I generally agree with that. Yeah. All right Next up That's common in chat Mef and Vince need to swap places so we're lined up with our chart Oh, yeah, yeah Maggot kin of nergal this is going to be a fun one. Where did the maggot kin go my friends? And I can make a case for basically anything but going off of current This might be controversial opinion coming in I'm going to throw them in Timmy I could see so I could see them Being a spike army But I'm going to say Timmy on account of What they do is pretty overt with how they try to win the game and the nergal players are pretty like traditionalists Like they've nergal players have stuck with this ancient book and I know we're not weighing history So if you look at a lot of the neural nergal players currently playing the army They're not just coming to nergal because of buffs and stuff like that. They've they have experience with this army So for them it is that experience, you know, they they like they're all about that sickness. They're down with the sickness Yeah, I'd say the nergal players that I've known over the years and the list that I've seen especially recently Yeah, I'm not sure what the split would be but it would be some Timmy some Johnny so I mean I hadn't ever thought about spike in the way that you guys are pointing out now. So maybe Someone like me and others have been secretly a spike and not realizing it Thank you, Steven. Thank you, Steven Powell and the in the comments. We're noting that as well. Appreciate that so for example over the weekend there were a Guo a great unclean one Glotkin Sloppy bio piper Spolpox Scrivener Three by template bears three by three plague drones and I look at that and like what's going on here and dig a little bit Oh, this is a combo army. Yep combo combo combo plus one attack plus one attack plus one attack, etc And it performed really well. It took out my friend Dan his archae on quite quickly Just a bucket of mortal wounds coming this way. So that seemed to me a little bit like Johnny with that nergalist All right. Here's my argument. I think I think current nergal as it exists right now is the most Timmy Johnny 50 50 split Okay, see if I can defend that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I dig it I think you said the magic word there. It's a wombo combo army Johnny's the classic combo player by the way in magic That's like their their thing that's sort of the it's that's overstated Not every Johnny is actually a combo player, but that's kind of there just like spike gets labeled as being the whack player Johnny gets labeled as being the combo player the two card combos too by the way like Chef's kiss like yeah so um But like That they they absolutely do rely on wombo combos, right? Especially now in their current world, right? There's lots of like oh this Slavity does this and this guy does this buff and the guo does this thing And they've been like that in the entirety of their existence, but I definitely like it now Yeah, they they do have fun big things Right, so like the the timmy parts the army to me are like the big Pusco of light lords or plague drones or a guo or something like that and souping them up and having them go Do something right or just like by the way another very timmy thing isn't always on offense. It can also be on D Like come at me bro Right, I want to experience that I can take your whole army and my my fat boy will still be standing here So they're just sitting there being like bang bang bang bang and just nothing hurting him and he walks away and he's like Is that the best you've got? Oh, yeah, they're riding home in the car ride telling you about all the things that couldn't kill their duo Exactly. That's a super timmy thing, right? Yeah, so but it's a but it's this sort of combo ish Control-ish type of thing It also is an army that frequently has like control-ish elements to it negatives to hit negatives to wound Lots of things like penalties worsening rend and it relies on this sort of like combo play That the reason I say it's almost perfectly timmy Johnny is because it's kind of like your story You were talking about with your magic deck math Where you were using Johnny-ish aspects to set up a timmy Pay-off sort of payoff Yeah, I think nergal plays a lot in the same way right where it uses these combos to defend often and then counter punch in a timmy way Right, like I move my anvils of penalty dudes and stop you from piling in and stuff like that I'm using these control-esque elements and combos Or maybe it's I use them to slingshot people and buff them and run people in but then I sort of Also have this timmy win con of a bunch of dudes who are hyper buffed running in and exploding all over you right So my argument would be it's probably one of the most pure splits between those two Right, it's never had I mean other than like black kings being Super efficient. I wouldn't call the army known for its efficiency Right or anything like that like known for its power. It's always been good, but it's never been great Right, it's always been this sort of if you can put the pieces together in the right way pick the right units Buff each other and then deliver you can have these big booms That's my argument. What do you guys think about that? I I mean I I firmly believe it's timmy like in in terms of because the experience aspect of it like like Nurgle players They want to play Nurgle, yeah, yeah There's some spike in there that like like black kings are getting really good people on tabletop simulators start start bringing out the The black kings band, but they weren't there for nurgle, you know, they were there to win Right, again if we're talking about the army and not the player Right for me. It's the experience like the experience is really what's what sells it as that So can we go johnny timmy? Are we okay with that? Are we okay? I think so I am like my main takeaway so far in the show is This difference between johnny wants to express something often cleverness versus spike wants to prove something Often they're the best not necessarily but and in that regard, you know, I don't I'd actually I need to talk my friend Jeff he's the one I'm most familiar with who's played jeff nomin the to of siege world I jeff has stuck with nurgle for forever. He's played it ever since I've known him the last six years And I suspect part of that is he's wanting to prove How good of a player he is? He's a very good player And he get he plays nurgle better than anyone else that I know that played against So I I do wonder how many nurgle players have that quality to them Yeah, but It's interesting and and so just brandon s said maybe I'm thinking of timmy the wrong way But I get almost no utility from it because they're so poor at killing stuff to me. It's a johnny spike I get that there are builds of nurgle that can kill stuff really effectively that do like explosive amounts of damage But like you're that that just means you're a particular type of timmy often as I am where the offense is what's fun to you As I said timmy can express in lots of different ways, right timmy can also be I can withstand everything I can create a cool moment where you attack me with like your whole army and it just bounces And I'm like, yeah bring it You know that kind of thing so so Um, I'm I'm gonna go ahead and put him up here. I'm gonna put him in this little space here. Yeah I respect it. I respect it right on Okay, cool beans Flesh eater courts Man this one's how to run hasn't it, um I mean Most of the death armies. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if I want to give it away Uh, but it's it's a johnny army It's at peak gristle gore. Sure, but we're not talking about asked um, but you're looking at an army similar to Right now it's in a weird state, but But you're looking at an army similar to nurgle where like getting the like you're usually Flesh eater courts lists are very modular. They're very different player to player. They tend to be like, you know You know, am I am I taking feast day? Am I taking this like the grand illusions? They're playing with big stuff So like they've got that timmy in them but when it gets right down to it like like it's it's those the The interplay of the summoning and the command abilities and like really the table play that separates Like sort of like the true fact players from People who are just sort of passing through town the last couple iterations of the army Not quite a full toolbox, but like as far as the death armies went for a spell there It was what it was like our most complete army um So so what why do you think it's a john? I'm not quite understand I think it's a johnny because the interplay of of of how you actually build the list Like it's a very very metic meticulous list build It's a very like it's a thinking man's army. Like you you really You really like put build a it starts at like the johnny experience with flesh eater courts begins at the list building Well, the johnny experience begins at list building, but this is a this is a list builders army You've got to like you're looking at the little levers. You're pulling with how you're setting it up arch regent is like actually like a super johnny spike piece, but like like it's but like efficient at what it does traditionally And just what it's bringing to the table like you're like this goes on every list because it just turns on this stuff Yeah, i'm sensitive to what you're saying and I think i'm going to agree with you when we come to a Later army, okay In death But I got to tell you man This thing to me flesh eater courts and its current incarnation is like Timmy spike all the way. Yeah. Yeah, like it's It's Like I can make my army of wins with dragons It wins with big giant dragons that go in and pile in twice and mortal and like oh, I rolled four six is 24 mortal wounds Is that a more timmy experience path to victory right? Yeah, at the same time like it's less spike now than it used to be like it's it's drifted Towards just being timmy like spike is kind of lost interest in it as that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, this is right But it's still in that space Right like to me it's still it's it's still Its identity is a timmy spike army It wants to use big monsters and big attacks and big hits or just even like Big packs of ghouls buffed up with like five six I'm trying so hard not to use the past on this army Because of like it is unquestionably when you're talking about like gristle gore Um arch regions even like 30 ghouls do were sure bad like super buff smash bat Yeah, smash back and smash this can smash that like they get this like hidden Efficiency in that army. That's why I lean on the Johnny axum axion because I don't think it does it with a couple of the exception of two pieces That army needs it's It needs to work together to get the big the big hits with the except but But the most spike piece or the biggest the reason you're playing the army is basically one of the most spike Spike timmy pieces in the game, which is which is a It's like the guy the the question you can't answer right like the ghoul the the kumquat the ghoul king on terracast is just like He is what he is. He's like, I'm gonna throw this thing at you. I'm gonna give you a question Yeah, you have no answer to because here comes 24. Yeah, yeah deal with that man Well, it's awesome, but playing that army is you're like, what's my out? Oh, yeah Can this kill it like and you're just you're just every problem The like every you're a hammer and everything looks like a nail You're just gonna see a you a bag of hammers to the fight, right? And it's just like we're gonna see what happens here You open up your toolbox. Oh, look, it's all hammers just all the way down. So that's weird You know, so I've had I've had some interesting experiences against fleshy to court's players I played one over the weekend Awesome guy shannon He was dressed to the nines. He had a fleshy to court's pen He was really leaning into the narrative of the army and incredibly painted army great display board And but I was getting Immediately the sense this is a very detail-oriented kind of johnny what I would think of in my head Which again, I'm learning may be wrong in terms of my conceptions of these things coming in tonight Johnny type type type guy Where but he was a very meticulous player you know, he Just about every choice Shannon made in our game was the right choice He made more better choices than I did Gotcha. I gave him I gave him first he had Two terra geist and a goal king on terra geist, you know, he did the spectral host He got the 10 that he needed to get all three running and charging I wasn't thinking about you could get all three in I left him like 10 inch charges He hit even with a redeploy on one piece. He hit those charges. I had the three in my face immediately Almost lost the 10 snakebos because of that, but they're like he he was just so meticulous You know so many choices You're describing a pure johnny. Yeah, you describe like pure johnny player And I think that's where you can find to these elements in these armies, right? Like it's not to say that you can't that some of these things again That's why I talked about like you can have these alternate builds You can you can express your thing because we're ceding these to where they best fit That doesn't mean it's where they only fit Right and you can have a very spike flesher to quartz player or very timmy flesher to quartz player Right your timmy flesher quartz player might only have one back of ghouls and then just oops all dragons, right? Like And so what we're saying is what's the sort of definitive Play style of this that this psychology of players, right? This psychographic profile is going to be the most attracted to it not only Most right so like opd. Oh opt said are we judging the army or the player that would pick the army? We're judging the army. Yeah the army itself and then the types of players. It's going to majority attract, right? So what's the sort of majority identity? You you want to wait like weighted toward the army itself, but with with due Observation of the types of players that are gravity towards because that's relevant information, right? Like really this is a human descriptor not an army descriptor, but it's a fun way to try to marry this together Like right friends. Yeah, okay. I see I mean I can't get off the johnny And I certainly can't say it's not a timmy army. It's winning with big packs of ghouls and dragons, you know like Uh, but like in in a former life I just said it's all three like it was just which is why it was such a problematic army because Everybody would in fact play old gristle gore Who doesn't want to win with a huge sweet dragon? Especially if it's the most efficient monster in the game, especially yadi. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah Like it was just here's the thing. I'm making the call. We're going. Okay. All right. All right. All right. I'll let you All right. This isn't my battle. This isn't my fight. Yeah, that's fine Okay, at least so we're not here until two in the morning. Yeah By the way, if you like this sort of show hit like button subscribe if you haven't already we discuss fun things like this Sometimes I like these types of shows because they're super fun. This is perfect. Okay Uh, next up. Let's uh, let's get out them gets Gloomspite gets I will defer to the wisdom of the chat. Oh What does everybody think the gloomspite gets is going to be? Uh, tyler, you got a thought on this? Yeah, I mean they they certainly strike me as a combo type army At least certainly when I think of gets when the battle tone came out I think of a player like richie, which has play series Richie Lee was doing incredibly well with gets and you know, leading into endless spells Leaning into combos surprising people negative debuffs all over the place Pretty meticulous richie is incredibly meticulous player. Again, I'm talking more about a player rather than an army Oh, it's it's a good way for you to interface with the problem Yeah, yeah So but Yeah, so I yeah, I would traditionally think of them as uh as a johnny type army may probably and then certainly You know some timmy qualities with Tragoths and you just all you know the freaking all the randomness that can take place with the army those uh, The squigs and mangler squigs. Yeah. Yeah. Yep I I think this is like a clear cut like timmy johnny like situation for me I I completely agree. I don't think we're gonna have much argument on this one It's such a clear timmy johnny, right depending on how you sort of express the army because like if you're sort of the if you're like a uh, uh A mausajork player Or a trog player You're leaning into the timmy expression of this army if you're more on the get side or the mixed counting up your netters Like you're exactly like place in your netters trying to get this thing Then you move you move and you pull the moon and you hold it in place and it's like Yeah, you know It's it just to me feels bright. I like it belongs right here next to nergal in this sort of timmy johnny space Right, like that's where it's that's where it's living Right. Yeah, I think that one's very clear kind Um now again, it could depending on how you choose to express it and that's true for a lot of these It could go up or down Yeah, right the the super more gets players who were like like the people who were manipulating and spamming endless spells They were falling way down all the way into the johnny area Yeah, yeah, the people who are running pure trog heard. They're all the way up here in timmy Right, so so like again armies can have multiple expressions, but yeah, Nathan from honest wargamer is a pure timmy Like this man through it was throwing in like, uh, uh Man the old gargant war scroll. I can't remember what it's called. He was thrown in the gargant Oh, yeah, that's just the regular Yeah Yeah, if you're playing spiders, you're over here and there's I need a new tier just called insane person Shout out to show us the paw for the mortal realm. That's right. Yeah, take that fall Uh, no, absolutely. All right, cool Uh, next up, let's grab a let's grab a let's grab a slam dunk a rune for the next one. Shall we? Or or is it? The sons of behemoth Where are the sons of behemots? The big giants in their current incarnation Tyler you want to go first or see see if you're you're really getting grasping these concepts I'm getting put on the spot again. Let's see Oh my goodness, I find this to be a tougher one. Yeah, let's see I mean the the the the initial take is timmy Now that wasn't exactly the feeling I was getting from the battle tone The way that they play on the table in my experience leads to my friends talking about bonking everything that they can just Uh, bonking crap off the table and that's all that they talk about. So that's very timmy to me Uh, I I mean, I'll I'll go with the smooth brain of more timmy than anything Okay, math. What do you think? Uh The johnny and me hurts because I know table-wide table wise It feels like johnny army plays like a johnny army in terms of just table play I I want to say johnny spike But like the players playing this army are timmies and spikes right now It's just so it's in my spike Yeah, exactly. It's it. I completely agree This is part of my problem with the book. It has a sort of personality crisis, right? And that it thinks it's a johnny army, but it's not it's a timmy spike army Yeah, right like that especially now in 3.0 like it it fell way into the spikes because it became Like hyper efficient for everything you could pack in with your battle line monster hero 35 wins and one spot like that You know, I mean I was like I said I played a game of this on on On Um, saturday with the new things I actually got a couple games in on saturday And you know the people who are on this side table were like, hey man, this doesn't feel very good And and I was like it's funny to me because to me they army feel so fragile Because I just watched the wounds falling off the giants and like they're just going to drop any seconds You know, but to the opponent It's like no, no, you had four things on the table. You now have four things on the table The dice sitting beside the guy isn't relevant. Yeah, right brent here in chat has a has a fantastic take It's not johnny in less building. Yeah 100 percent. That's that's one of the things That's what I'm saying. It stops it. It wants to play like a johnny army, but it's not a johnny army It's definitely not johnny list building, right? It's like there's not enough pieces There's not enough questions to ask myself. I'm not I if I'm not agonizing over the last 200 points It's not a johnny list. No, it's just like Do you run the one of each? And the three babies or do you do or do you double up on something to like two takers? This is the only questions you're asking now, right? Yeah, which one do you put the which one do you put the book on? And which one do you put the amulet on? Exactly Exactly And the answer is the amulet on the general taker and the book on the breaker so he can flaming weapon or mystic shield itself See all the equations are solved for johnny, right? There's nothing it's it's just yeah, exactly There's no there's no tech to it Like of course you give the the breaker the the book because then when he's before he gets himself into combat He walks himself into the mystic shield and then the round before he goes in and fights He flaming weapons his gate breaker flail and now he has a four damage neg three rend weapon And he just destroys anything he touches like it's As the as a pure johnny I should probably start using this as my own internal tiebreaker Do I have an interest in even playing the army? You know like you can get me with the timmy appeal sometimes But like if the timmy appeal is not strong enough with this army because it's not like sweet dragons or undead or monsters Right. I will say Johnny there. I'm just like Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I will say I beat this army into a timmy More timmy army by always running stomper tribe Where I get to do the big damage that I want against some of the enemy units, right? So like I'm purposely play one of the worst versions of the thing because it plays the way I wanted to Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm determined All right. Let's do a fun one here for uh for for one of our players in this chat. Here they are Let's get them out. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. It's sylvaneth time. That's right. Yeah The trees, where will the trees fall? What of these three areas could the trees possibly fall into tyler Should I should I be nice to you this time tyler? Like I'll let you start. Yeah, I'll start. I'm having some self-realization tonight. You got it. You got to digest that. You got to process Revolatory stream if epiphanies are happening go ahead. Yeah. So I I think it's actually pretty johnny like it's it's pretty pretty Like textbook johnny um it It's got some gas right now with the addition sure Yeah, but I mean you're not playing this army Because pure efficiency you're beautiful mind when you're playing this army. You're just seeing the numbers and yeah You're trying to like move buffs express your power in exactly the right place Poop trees around the board exactly right to block movement Or to get line of sight blocking when you need to and this is going to be this Thing over here that does exactly the right number of mortal wounds and then the war song revenant moves into position to use the Throne of vines and then and then set up the spell portal for next round So I can then go to and just blow up a whole portion of the board. That's like Yeah Even some of the like the the stuff you're doing on the table is just like the most johnny Like stashing a thing in the corner to like just in the corner of the table and still like here comes the tree revs They're sneaking in out of nowhere to steal your crap. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, like it's trending a little spike Certainly, I'll slide it to the bottom of the of the thing We'll actually we'll make these positional Like that we'll put this girl right in the middle because that she's so pure spike But I'll slide him toward the bottom because I agree with some people in the chat that like it's sliding a little spike here They've they've got some game and they've got some efficiency in the new one. They have a lot of three plus save Monsters and they still have reroll saves packed into some stuff. So they can get that Yeah, yeah Yeah, the change to the true load ancients commandability Which it appears that you're allowed to still beacon that out from kernauts So you can potentially be given out essentially two plus save in multiple places at the board Or your kernaut always at a three plus or two plus, you know stacking multiple times against wren's Right blah blah the the whole yeah spike wanting to prove something I mean, they're definitely like that's the thing about spike I've learned tonight that I do resonate with that. I didn't understand like certainly I would I would love to play some that's right now to prove how badass they are right? Yeah Yeah, no, I mean that that that was the that's a very spike mentality when you were like no, man This book's got gas this book's like and you're just absolutely i'm going to find the list I'm gonna prove it works. Yeah, I mean tyler what you've learned tonight about you is that you're a johnny spike Right and you're a little more spike than you thought you were and that's why Fits in so well because you want to prove something but also express something at the same time, right? Yeah, absolutely. You want to express that you're clever and prove that selvedeth can win Yeah, Dave, I'll never forget Dave griffin came out of one of the games at nash con It's like you always looked like you were so stressed out playing your turns playing still man I think guys that's true You were constantly stressed out because uh as shawn experienced in our first game dock against lesion the first prince I'm constantly just talking myself doing what you just exactly just did you're just talking out your turn and all the the different You know 100 variables that you have in front of you and you're trying to do it quickly So you can make decisions in a timely manner and just it's nonstop and it's amazing and everybody should play that army Except take away the the tree pooping nobody needs that this whole nonsense of blocking up giants by surrounding them with three trees Get that crap out of here. Sure. Yeah, okay No, keep it in I giants get no pity for me this edition I had a little bit of pity for the last edition All right, yeah, I love suds Bahamut. I like litmus test armies uh, if I was gonna if yeah if I was gonna the the OPT says do something express something prove something I would say experience something express something prove something But sure like that's that's how I would frame it. Yeah, okay cool beans, uh Beasts oh chaos other than masochistic Which isn't one well, this is where you need a fourth This is where you got the third for insane and you've got the you've got the fourth Where it's just like the kill bill speech like this is me at my most masochistic, right just like Like I am just enjoying so I know this might be an unpopular on but they're johnny spike if not pure spike depending sometimes They might not be relevant Like in terms of like the meta, but the way this army plays. It's all about Abusing the things that they do great, which is their need for speed. They're summoning speed bumps. Like you are just Like it's it's you're just absolutely The abuse and the people left on it are absolutely trying to prove that they can win with visa k It's a good point. The only people who are playing this at this point are like so spiky because they will prove that this army can do it, right? Australia, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's got a little bit of everything because like there's a there's that like You just want to run all your like your goat your goats and bulls across the table and blow stuff up But that's not how the army plays. It's a little bit of like that identity crisis thing that that gargants get is it doesn't play like that it you're playing a very You're playing a very aggressive Johnny spike or pure spike. I think they're Johnny spike right now You know, if they got some worse changes, they got like, you know, you I could see them I could see a here a case for them being pure spike, but I think they're Johnny spike Because you're just the way you're playing the game. It's abusing abusing efficiency at what they do, right? But you have to like do that sort of Fibonacci sequence style play Sure And I think at the Johnny only gets expressed in like a lot of the really powerful lists have been these kind of huge wounds board control lists, right spread and control Like that itself is this very sort of Johnny thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, and I play them. So and I you know, like so John says 18 and lighten and go Well, and that's the thing is like You're I think you're gonna see a few few spikes really eakin out some stuff with this because Chaos of light and on disc are good actually like they're very efficient again and The problem is like real visa chaos players like me men of taste. We don't want to play that zangor crap I mean, I will because like six of them want on gore and bestig or sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah New sculpts for our bulgars. Let's go Huge difference between 10 snakebos and 15 math. That's what I'm hearing That's right. No, I just my six pack of uh, uh, like I'm still a proper visa. Yeah, I just have six in light Right, right. It's one missile. I I agree. It's Johnny spike it like it again It's the prove something aspect of spike not the I must win aspect of spike, right? Because again, that's too reductive Right, it absolutely is trying to express the the the creativity of the person playing it the cleverness of the person playing it and prove That they can win right it yeah 100 and it's current form. That's what it's going to attract. Okay. Yeah, awesome All right, let's keep going I love that we're getting our chops busted for the 10 and 6 Yeah, exactly We deserve it All right, uh night hunt. Let's do another death army here. Where are them where them ghosts at where my ghosts at So this one's this one's got a little bit of a schismatic problem going on Okay, because the players I know that are devout night hunt players are very timmy Hmm, but the army is pretty Johnny. I think in terms of in terms of how it plays I I always found this to be the most quintessential Johnny army in my house. Yeah, that's why I always found it It was the one army I really wanted to collect and almost pulled the trigger on a commission when the battle time came out And it's it's really kept that up, you know MSU and and the kind of players that I've seen do well with it like Ash McEwen You know with his MSU builds that he played and yeah, just very very Johnny to me Yeah, it's a very Johnny. I I agree with the Johnny's sake. I think it's pretty firmly Johnny Um, not quite a Johnny timmy, but I'd put it at the top side of Johnny, you know, I agree with that I completely agree with that take I Yes, it's all these like very care like you have to make a lot of choices in list building It like lives and dies in the list building phase and exactly like, you know Mastering these little buff circles and having everybody just in range of everything where you've got the right penalty And I've got the right bonuses and my chain gas is here and my chain rests are here in my This is that and so on. It is it is the It is the most what do I do what do I do with the last 200 points an army can get Like what are the 200 points that are going to make this list? Yeah, I mean tom playing knight haunt is really a pretty big indicator. Why he he loved this, right? Yeah, yeah, I guess he wanted to express just like his creativity with list building Look what I can do with next race. Look what I can do With the black coach. Look at how all combo these things together and you won't see it coming, right? When 27 inches away, I cross the board and charge you and pin you, right? Yeah, these these double uh, even the the double like black coach lists that are rolling around right now are like That's a pretty it's it's it seems flashy and timmy and it's got that But it's a very johnny like you're like, I want to guarantee That like the combo works that the that the that it get one of them levels up and I get to do the thing Right, right, right. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I agree. It drifts a little timmy, but it still sits firmly in the johnny space right with you. Yep Like there's it's not again, even when I put them here That's why I am going to stack them, you know, sort of in their areas because they are he's he's close He's close, but it's still sitting in johnny. Yeah, all right rock and roll. Let's see. Who shall we grab next? Let's grab these guys right here I don't if deep kin I d k Where are they going? I mean, didn't we give this one away? Yeah, it's fine. I mean, it's yeah Like there's there's it it it has that problem with Uh, it has that problem that jargons have we're like, there's just no there's really not a lot of johnny in the list building Right, like there's more now, but yeah, historically there hasn't yeah trying to make two turtle list work is like the most The reverse I feel engaged with it right now like but yeah Yeah, I'm gonna say it's spike up here at the top Where it's like again, it's like 20 percent johnny Right in how you you kind of build out the list and the the the pieces that you've got But it's it's sitting in spike And the high tide thing is cool. Like it's a it's a pretty you know, I think I feel like a combo player really likes the Setting up the right turn to do the thing, right? Like yeah I'd nest spike kin from bar tech. Yeah, I like that Yeah, like I think I'd net, you know, it's like in a spike. Yeah, there you go It's you know, it's got elements that timmy should love in like the big turtle and stuff like that, right? But it just that's not how it actually plays out like those Yeah, don't do those things right. Yeah Like there's don't get me wrong like I'm sure timmy loves the turn three, you know old school thing But again, we're talking current version, right? Not the old school spam a million attacks But like it's it's it is and always has been one of the most pure spike books, right? Like you're It's I mean, I feel like it's kind of past torch to to Gargantz not in terms of like spike But in terms of like what it means for the matter like you just had that all of 2.0 was just Just this this gatekeeper litmus test. Can you deal with eels charging you on territory? Yes? No And right now you can have that going on with gargantz is like can you drop two gargants quickly? Or are that you know, are you can you take two gargants off objectives? Right, and you're you kind of you so it's it's really cool the way that yeah, anyway, sorry No, I completely agree Tsirathi says it should be a timmy army because of sharks turtles and eels, but it just doesn't feel that way Yeah, and the idle it really Yeah, it really doesn't and I think it it shows with the timmy players that buy in thinking They're getting a timmy experience and like they have that like buyer's remorse with it You you saw a lot of timmy pick up the army and like it doesn't quite jive with them because they wanted that It doesn't go timmy enough. Yeah, right fair enough. Yeah Yep, I agree. It just doesn't give you the best experience Yeah, it's at least in the best place that it's been and I mean we'll probably be getting a New battle to them relatively soon when we think because it's one of the oldest But yeah, I mean pretty much everything in that book other than the usual low tan or whatnot is playable right now It's all pretty good. Turtles are insanely good sharks Revers I'd take a low tan with some reverse That'd be a bad idea. Reaves are hot right now. Yeah Alan K says deepkin is the merfolk blue tempo available. Oh the most spike ever I love it with the with the uh with the underground seas even though you're only bringing black in from the sideboard Sure I hate it. Oh the worst deck. Sorry. All right. Nope. Now. Let's do a fun one everyone. I think You should have you should apologize for that everybody. I'm right there with you. I have no idea I'm sorry. I'm sorry every magic reference. Yeah. Yeah the magic reference. I'm sorry. I have like PTSD flashbacks. That's freaking merfolk It's all right. It's all right. Here we go. All right. Um, this should this will be a fun one. We ready? Yeah blades of corn It's okay It's timmy johnny Why timmy? Okay. Well, okay. Well, okay Notice how were the only thing we pushed you to defend there was the timmy part Is the timmy part what you want or the timmy part what it is Oh see because it's not it's not timmy like the great the great disharmony of corn armies is It's it's similar with the idk stuff is like you have a lot of very timmy players buy into corn And it doesn't play timmy but they love corn so much. They don't care about the disharmony So they stick with it anyway and play it wrong So it's johnny There thank you. I couldn't defend my position because the more I thought about it I'm like no like bloodthirsters. You want them to be timmy but then like You've got like the stacking, you know vent diagram buffs and Yeah, I mean part of this at least in my mind what's gone is I'm I'm thinking of my experience Which is mostly event players tournament players, you know Crazy folks like us who are thinking about this all the time like constantinos on coach's show where constantinos knows Everything about corn. I mean the man is johnny hardcore And he's also out to prove some things with what you can do with corn and a lot of the corn players I know but is that like most of the player base, you know, there's sort of like more casual player base. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I think we got to again go back to what is the book doing right now Not what what we want the book to do So it's probably sitting right now in johnny spike Like I think it's drifted down into johnny spike with the current edition I do think of it as a very pure johnny army a lot of builds a lot of tinkering you can do with it I mean it I mean right now you're You know getting the right seasoning of blood thirsters if you're bringing archion for like some some cheekiness like it's I think it's pretty firmly johnny, but I'd hear an argument for like smack in the middle of johnny spike Here's what I'm gonna argue I think it sits smack in the middle of johnny and I'll tell you why Okay Because it does go a little timmy sometimes with the blood thirsters or stuff like that And it does go a little spike sometimes with the way you want to play it with archion and things like that Like there are expressions of the army that want to reach into those other categories But they're both the minor reaches of it. The core of the army right now is a finesse army Right that plays off of properly utilizing and trading like it's not only maintaining the buff waris because we talked about that ad nauseam Right how everything yeah for like two additions now very clear clever specific this ballet of buff waris But that's not actually how you win with the army how you win with the army is this extremely careful johnny like play Of you're executing your combos and trading exactly the right stuff to have your stuff into position at the right moment To execute the blood tithe to then move or charge or fight when out of sequence when you wouldn't expect to And like it is because of the nature of how blood tithe itself works It just seats it right and hard into johnny because blood tithe itself being this this out of Sequencing play that can just be like boom and I got you. Yep. Yep. No, right It's this it's this chess move thing Sitting in the middle of a blood army Right That's just like It really is it's the colombo moment where you're like you where your opponent thinks they're fine and then all of a sudden You're like I'm just one more now Yeah, hero face. Gotcha. Yeah hero face charge. There you go. Yeah Right. Yeah. Yeah, it is it is. Yeah. No, it's So it's again, it's not that it doesn't have those elements that reach into the other two I think it reaches up and down in equal proportion. Yeah, okay But but like it's sitting there holding you ever see do you see those things on facebook of those dudes You're like have just incredible upper body strength and will like grip a pole and turn themselves sideways You know, I'm talking about these dudes who can do like yeah, like this kind of thing. Yeah That's blades of corn. They're just gripping the pole in johnny And like sure they can like reach up into into timmy or down into spike, but they're just like We're here. I can hold myself completely sideways in this thing Yeah, the docking here deciding exactly which six heroes to bring is super johnny 100. Yeah. Yeah Like what are the exact heroes I want and what's the exact way they're gonna buff and i'm gonna play them and yadda yadda yadda I hope my externalizing my thought pattern really helped illustrate No, it's good. The the Wow it ends up. Yeah. Yeah 100% Okay, let's keep going. Uh, all right auric auric lands Oh, yeah, I think tyler can take this one Again, you know, it's it's one of those apparently I've been a fake timmy player all of my life Uh, definitely definitely johnny players. So I mean, yeah Why kind of saying they have chokingly there's certainly a hardcore element of timmy I've had the best time just, you know, having fun with this army. I'm playing this arm, but A little bit of spike because I'm playing in a part Speaking of me personally here that you know, I do like the challenge of trying to do well with iron jobs I find that intriguing, you know, all these little micro again micro decisions like Uh, without going into a lot of details, but you know the various command abilities iron sense command ability Blood tooth command ability all of that's fascinating. It's looking at a set of combos I I probably have found it to be a little bit of all three, I suppose, but I mean on the 10 It's a much better at being a timmy than the vast majority of battle tones Yeah, it's one spike at times based on its efficiency. It's gone. It can go johnny The casino war era was like pretty spike But at the same time it's a timmy army when you look at the personality of the army and how it wants you to play When you look at the very nature of like big wall and what it is Like big wall might as well just read down the line Do a bunch of cool stuff and get bigger bonuses. Yeah get big Like if you look back at my description of what I the most repeated word in the timmy description was the word big And they have a thing called big wall like I don't I don't know what else to do here folks See, I I I do I want to make a case for it being a timmy johnny and not pure timmy Because it it has a very it's very easy to play it pure timmy and all the timmy you'll you'll have fun and stuff like that The great players have to have some johnny in them to set up the perfect You know the perfect combo the 100 that's what's actually fast. It's a very It it it tricks you but it's like it's like a heavyweight boxer You know we're just coming in slugging, but the great boxers know when to slug Yeah, there's incredible depth to it like Runny, I mean it doesn't feel very mock cabbage like or iron jaws like to run your mall crushes away into a corner But you're setting up your 24 inch move with a charge Or you're like all there's all of these decisions. Yeah that this army elicits in terms of detail play. It's amazing On the tin you get big But then you open up and you're like wait I can mix this this tin that says big with this tin and get huge, you know That's the johnny like it's it's like I think it's the quintessential like like actually like psych johnny timmy army But yeah, i'm gonna put it mostly in timmy, but i'm gonna let it tow in to the timmy johnny Okay, all right, because I think to me it's like 30 johnny, but it's not on the 50 50 line that it belongs Got it in there, right? That's unfair. No, I'll I'll I like it. Okay. I dig it. Yeah, cool All right very good It's funny for a timmy game. There's not a lot of pure timmy armies. It's pretty funny My buddy who plays big wall all the time is definitely a maestro and he seems like a timmy johnny. Oh, yeah Andrew yells is a is a ranked chess player He wants to play the moat. He thinks his perspective is that like is that or war clans is like the most Chess moment type. Yeah, but while also being the most quintessentially warhammer army. It's why he loves this army It's like you can just So, yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, what's that? All right, let's grab our karadrin overlords here. All right k. Oh All right, so karadrin overlords. I'm gonna I'll start this time. Okay. Yeah Because I haven't started very much. You've been doing a great hosting. Yeah. No, let's let me get in the I can't put this all on youtube Uh karadrin overlords is sits right in the johnny spike area It always has it always will the fundamental nature of the army is pure johnny spike It relies on extremely techy list building overlapping buffs careful executions burning your Your gold at the right time uses it to use your triumphs exactly in the ways you would need It doesn't have the firepower to lift the enemy army or something like that But it had like it uses power projection to its advantage And you have to apply that power in exactly the right place and when that power is applied in the right place It is spiky as all spike because you cripple them before they ever get to do whatever they want to do Yeah, right It is That is one of the reasons people hate this army is because it will combo off and cripple them And then they'll feel like they're fighting with one arm tied behind their back for the entire game against this teleporting shooting You know nonsense, but when you look at their actual numbers They're not great like you know what I mean like if you look at the numbers of this army Like what they shoot on what they hit on what they wound on the amount of damage they do It feels Moderate at best, but when applied to the things you care about It's enough Right And so that's why my argument is the most quintessential johnny spike and again, which is why it's like tom's pen ultimate army Yeah Not ultimate pen ultimate army because he is very johnny spike And this army just speaks to him completely right and what he's angry about right now is that it's not spike enough spike enough. Yeah Sure. Yeah. No, I piggybacking off of what you said. I 100 agree Like slam dunk on this one like spell in a bottle is the most simultaneously Johnny spike item 100 yes It's still right if something is just exactly both like like johnny and Like it hit the bullseye between the exact line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, sounds spot on Uh, all right There we go. KO take your space here next to beast of chaos. You wouldn't have guessed it. Maybe tom's got another army in him there Yeah, beast of chaos. Yeah, but like it's a lifestyle. Yeah, exactly. It is a lifestyle. He can't get into it He's not cool enough Okay, uh All right, my bray homie's that I see you. I don't want I don't want to just pick uh tom's armies here We here's where I was looking for I wanted to where these guys were hiding. Let me grab them up here Disciples of z inch Where are them disciples of z inch going? See I have I have like a bias against z inch and I have to check my bias on these guys Yeah, I think they're johnny spike I want to say they're pure spike and I would say with archion pure spike Hmm, but like without archion I think it pulls them a little bit back into the johnny spike realm because you're still you're still wombo comboing, you know pink pink horrors Are Yes, the most efficient wounds. Yeah, but they're also like they're the spike part. No doubt. Yeah Yeah, but like the rest of the stuff with the spells blue scribes. There's some very johnny comboey stuff going on in there right I mean like, uh, what's his name? Uh that sets a die destiny dice are like are like pretty johnny Like they are we we want to do all the like johnny We're like we look at the destiny dice and kairos fate weaver is just like a like a super a super johnny He has a very johnny piece, right? Do you do you switch the die at the right time? Yeah, yeah, yeah So I put him johnny spike even though my impulse is to say pure spike. Sure sure tyler. What do you think? Yeah, they seem pretty quintessential johnny spike for the most part to me That's a good point math about archion and you know the host arcana build But I mean even then, you know, you're you're still having to be thoughtful To something pretty about your spells and your hero phase and and so on But yeah, pretty quintessential johnny spike in my head johnny army tuned perfectly for spikes as psi 915 I like yeah, I mean there. Oh berserk to 2112 says casting spells at nothing is the most spike I've ever seen it really like that's a great example, which I play a team game with spike on my team. It was so funny. Like I played a team game this weekend I got a lot of worry about this weekend and Disciples of spike I was teamed up with this each player and opposing us was a luminous and storm cast player So me and the storm cast had like no hero phase All right So we would just like do our one thing and then be done and then their hero phases would take like an hour Right because they're both Like my buddy who's coming down to nash con with his each army He has to his credit. He's printed out all his casters In an excel spreadsheet page all color coded all with the spells They have all color coded and he goes through and he has them in order of how he wants to cast them Okay, depending on whether or not cogs is out and then he actually check marks everyone that's successful So at the bottom of the round he can just go I got one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen faith points There we go And he has an audit trend like an auditable record Of exactly how many faith points he's that feels very johnny to me, but it's like Like I like I said my impulses just go pure spike But there's enough johnny to pull me back from From uh from doing that, but I could easily be budge Yeah, I am I am but a leaf on the wind. Yeah, it definitely does feel more spike than johnny to me right now More definitely more spike, but yeah, it does But I think that's sort of a an expression of just like it's attracting that thing right now largely because of the Archeon of it all right Um, my answer is like if we and I know that is simply he's part of the equation But I think this army is firmly johnny spike because it still has a lot of those johnny elements in it But I'll agree with you right it's definitely pushing harder into spike now But again, it's not just like power that makes you spike right right it's being able to sort of it's it's that attraction to efficiency Right to efficacy on the table, right and and zeech does efficacy really well Like desi dice are this very johnny mechanic kairos has this very johnny mechanic Like you can express your intelligence your cleverness by using these things in the right way All right Like a good zeech player is hard to beat because they're going to use all their cheats at exactly the time that's worst for you Right, yeah, right But it's like a johnny army that has been perfectly. I agree with somebody said this to has been perfectly tuned to be spiky Yeah, because it's just a johnny army that's built to cheat when whenever the points are too good I mean this is this is Whenever the points are too good for zeech it just like right into spike again instantly it falls down Yeah, it just like whoo. We fell off the ball off the balance beam right into spike land So what i'm gonna do here is i'm gonna put him like that In the johnny spike territory, but towing a little harder into spike Yeah, we all look at we've become like a three-dimensional like on a 2d plane now like Okay, cool. Yeah, and we'll see how things Shift around all right Uh ogre mothribes Where them where them ogres at? Ogres ogre mothribes. I have an answer All right Take it my answer. Yeah, take it. Yeah, they're a quintessential timmy army Really? Okay Like nothing they've ever had has been hyper efficient Okay, even the frost lord on stonehorn. He's good, but he's probably worth his points, right? He's probably always been pointed correctly. He's just a powerful piece. He's never been over efficient You're allowed to be great, right? Like this is what a great monster. He's just a good example of that thing Right, like he's not the broken example of that thing No one is there hasn't been like some call out for them to be buffed the basic ogres the mechanics they have You look at what they are hungry and eating right and these kinds of things like everything about what their mechanics say Says if you're timmy you want to play this army? We're big fat boys. We make big charges We do mortal their entire mortal wound on the charge impact hit It's a very random thing. They can have big spiky memorable moments Their winter bite thing is a very my spiky. I don't mean spike the thing. I'm sorry. It's a very random thing They can have yeah like Moments of oh that was awesome, you know like oh, I rolled, you know I rolled a 12 charge and then I rolled like a ton of sixes. I'm like, yeah These two these two little ogres or whatever came in and just blew you up son You know Like it's such a timmy army because it creates those types of moments right How do you guys think about pieces like I'm thinking about like stewart mcgowan. I'm getting his name correctly Who ran yeti's really well or you know, some people who are running The the frost sabers, you know like coming down on board edges. There's more techie pieces Yeah, I mean, I think every army has those expressions, right? Like I think those things are in there like To me it sits definitely in timmy like a hundred percent. This is just a timmy army It's built for that But that doesn't mean that every single unit in there is that again, it's the majority votes Like there are techie things you can do with yeti's or with frost saber ambushes, but it's still it's not the defining aspect of the I'd cost I go a step further and sort of supporting your premise in that The most timmy way to win is making your charges Like it's it's right. Well, I would say the most but like sort of a quintessentially obvious timmy way is to like Make the big charge and stuff This is where I think with maw tribe slips a little bit into johnny in that it's not always The big alpha isn't actually always the best play really whereas with like over maw tribes It really does become like no just get the charge with the stone horn Well, I mean they also opened up in this edition 18 packs of glutton's if that didn't say go hard timmy I don't know what does right because like 72 or sorry. Uh, no, that's right. Yeah, uh, 72 wounds right uh counting as 36 bodies Right on a point. It's just like this is the timmiest thing ever like here's my big pile of meat Yeah, what you gonna do with all that meat, you know, just like that's the that's the whole thing. Yeah. No, no, no, no No disagreements for me. Yeah Right Like sure, but you know, I think that's where if you get like a johnny player playing a timmy army because they're a johnny timmy If they themselves sure then they'll express those elements of the army Yeah, they're playing with yetis, you know, like they're yeah, yeah You know, you give you give the johnny spike that is jack from re-rolling ones Uh, the ogre army and he's playing like all yetis with the With the fire belly for the neg one to hit and all that, you know, just nonsense, you know, just not yeah, yeah Okay Stormcast Eternals, where do they sit other than disappointment for another two weeks? So, so I guess we should have caveated iron jaws in case you're watching this six weeks into the future, dear human Um These are three battle tone release appraisals. Yes. Yeah, so This one's difficult I feel like it has some johnny spike to like To play with it in like sort of in the in the ideal sense But stormcast eternals is what I call the ryu of a game And ryu is always about fundamentals, which is a johnny thing. Yeah So I it makes me want to place it johnny Okay Yeah, so I played them for a full year to They were my 2019 army after hanging up sylvanath after three years They played them very combined arms, which is classic stormcast List, you know six long strikes again, not the nine because I needed to express You know that I didn't need to use nine. Uh, so that says very spike. I I suppose I had something to prove Yeah, you were you were proven. I don't need the nine. I can build the nine. Yeah, I'm gonna run I'm gonna run sell some crime your best johnny spike life. Yep Yep It was a very johnny spike list and Yeah, I loved I mean the stormcast list you see all kinds of different stormcast lists that are out there Obviously, there's a long strike list that we saw for a long time, but and now we're seeing one another spam ether wings. Yeah I think very Yeah, yeah Yeah, very very johnny, but yeah johnny and also johnny. Yeah johnny spike. Yeah johnny spike. Yeah Yeah, I I agree with those appraisals like here's the thing. This is where I think I hope we get realignment in the new book, but let me say I don't Know I don't have the cards near me. Um, if you look at the new units They're trying to build timmy units. I don't think they're trying to they don't they don't they don't they don't have a Thought in their head about this kind of stuff like like magic designers do right, but Um, but like this army should be a pretty timmy army Right. Like that should be where it's sitting It should be timmy with a little bit of johnny baked in to teach you kind of the basic list building Right, that's where it should be as the fundamental entry point to the thing good never great Balanced with options, right? That's like that's what it should be right, right? But it's not right now There's too many units that are doing too much the same thing List building is what you live or die by in storm cast of journals right now Like if you look at new vindictors new stuff like that, they're much more timmy oriented, right? Uh into like simplicity and execution of what they want to do right they can they can Sort of like run to damage to is is yeah Look at those like drakos. I looked at those concussers and my timmy senses went. Yeah, baby Like give me them Give them six attacks on threes and threes neg two for two. I'm in Yeah, and uh, you know looking for those sixes when your stuff blows up, you know Yeah That's the most amazing storm cast rule So but like but we have to wait for the new book and I agree right now They're kind of sitting right beside blades of corn. I think they're just kind of like a johnny army right now that's they're like they're an sort of an underwhelming johnny army is basically what it is, right? and That's sort of the best versions of them We see in the current world is like people who are doing really techy Exact list building with exactly the right pieces to project power in exactly the right ways And they're they're just too techy to be the intro army. They should be right now Right, they rely on like birds doing counter charges and you know again like yeah A little bit of a eureka moment here and just just a quick question for you Do you think the sort of default armies or the default state of the game should actually just be like timmy johnny's Like that should be how they should tune them Is to be like this is this is a good starter army is a timmy johnny army for the starting armies. Yes Yeah, right. So like corn like anything I would consider a starting army, which to me is like corn storm cast or storm cast orcs You know those kinds of things should all sit in that space Yeah So we'll see like I'd love to see the storm cast move up into timmy johnny land firmly Um, I I agree with our our turious who says oops all dragons has big timmy potential I agree. That's why I am so excited for that list Right because that's that is I because I am a primary timmy And like I saw that suddenly storm cast are gonna have this wave to play them That hopefully isn't garbage like that's that's my 25 spike Like I that's where that's in there because I know I have that instinct to win that's still there But like I I don't need to be great. I just need it to be good. That's all I ask You just want you you just want your three and two army that when you play great and run hot You can be contested right like you can begin it to win it. That's what I think that's I think that's a good place to I think that's a really good perspective to go into the game with yeah Yep, that's a you're exactly right math Okay, all right uh seraphon or them lizards that Yeah, they have I mean mentioned thunder lizards that is fitting now, I would say timmy spike With the thunder lizard and it appears to me. I don't I'm not that tuned into what all they're doing with those lists right now Yeah, yeah, but yeah, go ahead now No, so I think this is kind of like with your metaphor for for blades of corn, but the spike version of it It's a spike army But like it has the pole where it reaches into johnny and down into timmy perfectly. Yep Like I think it's a spike army that reaches the old version was like a lot more johnny with like the multi teleports and stuff like But it's it's not doing right So, you know, I I actually I math I agree with you like I think it's a spike army. It relies on like Now now here's my thing. I think there is still some johnny elements in it It does reach up into into buffs I think it sits kind of where zinch does where it's got like 30 percent johnny in it But it's mostly spike it relies on this sort of like ramping units to efficiency in Sort of power bombing its way through things, you know, like now with the thunder lizards, you're you're You're hitting people with with uh, you know, these big Laser beams and double tapping laser beams and and all this kind of stuff, right? There's but it's still combo riffic. In fact You know when you look at like what it is There's so much comboing and relying on and buff stacking and all these different things you had to you have to do That it to me it's such a johnny spike army Right because it relies on built combo riffic Uh Expressed power like it on its own almost all their units are garbage Hmm, right. It doesn't quite hit full toolbox though is the thing like it doesn't I don't think it does. That's why it's not like pure johnny Right. Yeah I think it still has these spike elements in the efficiency place like that is to say It got away from being pure johnny Because the units need combos, but then when they do they shoot up to a million Right. Hmm. Yeah, they get they're more they're force multipliers are better than your force multipliers, right? Like that's yeah Right. Yeah, that's fair fair read So spike johnny like like johnny. Yep. Maybe dip in a yeah, okay Dip in a toe down a little bit more into spike then then then a little bit up into johnny But yeah, like like I I agree with your read their myth of that like sometimes the thunder lizard thing can track Can like oh yay big stompy dinosaurs like I agree with you that that element's there But that's not actually how it plays. You don't just take like a bunch of stompy dinosaurs unbuffed and run forward Yeah, we're not seeing the croxagore list with all the big dinosaurs, right? Like the last one's the last time you saw what is the grand teresaur would or that click on the table? Like you just dreadsorian. Yeah redsorian. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, somebody's got first of all I don't know what you just called it grand teresaur. That's its new name. That is the best name I have ever heard Dreadsorian is dead. It is now the grand teresaur That is so much better of a name Oh my god get in charge of their naming department math that was That was just I wasn't even pitching you a ball you ran in from the dugout Jumped in front of the other batter and just smashed it into the stadium Holy crap grand teresaur I only know this one move They just started running the bases like everybody's like is that legal? All right, fantastic Oh boy, okay. Yeah, the malls of jork and the grand teresaur you got it. All right Okay, uh All right Uh, here's what we'll do. We'll do this one next for you maf. I think I know where this one sits But I'm but I'm curious as to your take. Let's talk about the Aussie arc bone reefers. Let's talk about them boner boys So right in your wheelhouse here maf Okay, yeah, so like I'm probably gonna tip tip the cards here um My appeal for the army is certainly from a johnny perspective. Sure. I really like the decision making the way rdp Mechanics were for the army. Yep Because you're looking at like you just you're just you're just playing you were playing Chas when other people were playing checkers. Sure. That's a very is a very johnny thing The list building you do agonize over those 200 last points Yep It's literally an army where for like months the discussion in the obr chat was what's the last 200 points, right? And that was like the discussion Yeah, I agree So so like formerly I would put it johnny spike, but right now it's spike Actually, because it has held a lot. Yeah 100 by the efficiency of the units Yeah, interesting I know I agree. I mean that that's certainly been what I've what I've been hearing and the results that I've seen You know you with the machine gun mystic shield from arc in Petrofex elite just having units that get on objectives and they don't die kind of old-school petrofex coming back Yeah, I mean it's I would I actually think there's a very big timmy element to it because the like it's got that like Look at what it take, you know, like look what could it kill me? Like there's a very Timmy like Uh more tech crawlers are kind of like are kind of timmy like artillery pieces because you're like Oh, they're so like, you know, like there's not really proper artillery. Look at my proper artillery, you know Like but it's it's hard to sell people on concept on like the sort of like esoterica of it And I think you got to go with like what's what's obvious again in addition to go. It was johnny spike Right there right now. It's spike it because it just it's not Johnnying super hard. Yeah. Yeah, you know mef you sold me. I I was gonna say my my inclination was to johnny spike But I think you're right. It fell out of johnny in this edition I I agree. It wants to be up here up top like it's it's I'm gonna put at the top of the area where like it wants to be So bad. It's trying to It wants to be it really like it wants to do something with its 15 Relentless discipline It's not allowed to so you just have to like no tricks just fists just you just Yeah, like I survive by just being super tough and hitting super hard and it's like it's an all efficiency play Yeah, like the strength of more tech guard, you know the strength of arcan mystic shield machine gunning. Yeah Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're exactly right. You nailed it. I haven't been been seeing many more tech crawlers and lists anymore Yeah Yeah, more tech guard your usual, you know, maybe five or two by five ponies And maybe a goths are but often not a goths are Yeah, it's kind of long. Yeah, you're not even really playing in the monster world with people Unless you're bringing art on I do think there's some fun nagash builds in there But like it's I mean your it's just efficiencies the game right now You you have a plan you execute and you grind people out Yep, absolutely Now, right. I agree. You you completely sold me there. All right slaves to darkness This is a tough one because it's so much Right like this army is just a lot Meph, what's your take on this one? I want to say Johnny I know Archeons around but I want to say pure Johnny because This is what this was one of the first books to like Me the excitement in me hasn't dwindled from when they released it for list building. Okay. It is a Johnny Dream for list building. Yeah, and how it plays on the table from like if you're going to spoilers where you're like Turn you're just doing stuff that like other armies aren't allowed to do where you're turning terrain into like shadow pools And you're you know, you're you're you're teleporting or flying on to them and you're just doing some like some some bonkers stuff Taking marauders down a peg really helped like I think the Johnny Shine and one of the mistakes. I think people are making with The army is they're not leaning into their Johnny enough to see that there's other I tend to find this quintessential Johnny spike Especially if we're going to throw in like knights at the empty throne and at least in the first prince Those are rock hard list. Yeah, yeah, sir. Are An archaeon is shortened Yeah, an archaeon is yeah, but just extraordinary efficiency and knights at the empty throne and the legion of the first prince, you know bellicor kairos Maybe a bloodthirster You know the corn demon prince plague bears for battle line It's it's just like everything and then they're summoning pink horrors or they've got to pink horrors like Knights at the empty throne the baron guard that you can't get off the table Especially now at three point all the budget can put on and it's just efficiency everywhere in the army I'm gonna apologize again But it reminds me of like of team america where it's just like what's all the best stuff we can throw in a in a In an army and slaves to darkness does that right now as you just look at what's the most efficient crap I have access to And then you put it in a list and then it's it's like oops. It works like it's good Again, it belies the heart of a Johnny though like the Johnny heart Is beating at the core of this army But okay, I'm gonna make an argument. Oh, here's my argument. All right This is truly the only perfectly balanced between all three book In the current meta Let me defend that Okay, I agree with everything you said about johnny the list building phase with this is so important Right, you have so many different capabilities wombo combos things like that You can do like it is the nature of this thing, right? Okay But it also has arc on and nights of the empty throne and stuff That's just like hyper efficient and powerful and unbreakable, right But it also has a lot of timmy elements in it It's got big goofy monsters and the eye of the gods table and chariots and chaos nights All of which really appeal to like, you know the sort of timmy aspects of stuff Like you charge in and you break somebody on the charge with these Rend to buffed corn chaos nights, right? Well, the the assassin prince is a pretty timmy piece too Like you want to make like a like a demon prince that can just go around and actually do the job Right other people aren't allowed to do if we kept going through this army We would be like the the llama kitty cat super johnny piece, right? The like you can just keep digging the the corn demon prince super johnny piece right Archeon hyper spike right now bellicor hyper spike right now, right? But again bellicor used to be a johnny piece though, you know, but he just got too efficient, right? Like he's he's just he's big and tough and and he can like get there, right? um But you could like I can keep giving examples a giant block of cast warriors bury timmy But but do does it can so you can do it, but should you do it like can you play it timmy? Yeah, I think it can I think it wants you to do all of those things like that's what I'm saying Like the big marauder packs right like timmy spike You know what I'm saying like it's just like it keeps hitting all three because it wants to combo to create efficiency But also create big moments It's doing all three in almost everything it does It is truly like the the dagger from infinity war, right? It's like perfectly balanced as all things should be It's just it is in a class of itself. I think it's one of the most Uh Best written books Right. Yeah, I can't I can't even disagree. Yeah the the way it lets you play the different sub factions each can express The different elements here in different ways Yeah Right, it's just a home run like I'm a super timmy player. I have a bunch of st S2d lists I run I love that are super timmy for me Right that rely on like charging and impact hits and and mortal wounds and big You know sort of like big explosive attacks, right? But at the same time it's got little johnny elements I use little spike elements I use that I know are hyper efficient like all those kinds of things That's expressing that part of me. I just think it is literally in a class all its own Yeah All right, so just set it off to the side Right, it's like it's it is all three Right, it's just kind of like its own thing And I I just think seeding it in any one of these or even any two of these would be disingenuous You just blow up the image to work covers like timmy giant right? Yeah. Yeah at the end Uh, yeah, I I can't really interrogate that like I mean because Obviously like I gravitate I look at it. I'm like I the johnny stuff is what makes my eyes light up and that's where I'm But you know, that's the one question I had is like, yeah, but can you actually play the uh, you know the timmy stuff and and you know Compellingly and stuff. Right. Yeah. All right Okay very good Nobody we know by the way guys Nobody needs bellicor on a for a big norrends Four up to put wounds onto some pink cores, whatever and a five upwards after all of that If we could please get rid of that in this game, uh, please and thank you. Sure. I don't know that I don't have legion of the first prince on here because it's kind of like it's I'd sort of part of this but sort of not I mean, I don't know what to make of it. I'm really getting tired of these legion of the first prince games with three layers of nonsense Yeah, it's uh Like I would love it if we just fixed the stupid bodyguard rule and made it so it's one of the other but you know Yeah, yeah, that would be nice. I don't know why we haven't done that yet. It's a mystery But I'm going to abuse it in two days Uh, so okay in in a weak way not a strong way Uh, it with you it's like cities is the weakest abuse of it. Let me just say that Uh, but go no mad prince. Okay. Anyways, so Uh, yeah, let's do who we grabbing next. Uh, these these boring little idiots. All right fire slayers I think I made my stance clear Boring isn't a tear. So where do they go spike? Spike hard spike. Yeah, I mean, I mean Yeah They have like two units Like I know magma draws you can win with them and you yeah, you could do it. You could do a timmy mag mag list Yeah, you could do a spike timmy, but I don't think that that's the You know the go ahead looks like you got a thought I I agree with your thoughts But I'm going to I I think it should toe into timmy a little So it's pulling like this like the same way You know kind of so we have these some of these armies towing like iron jaws is timmy But it towed down into the johnny timmy I think fire fire slayers is spike, but it toes down into the spike timmy All right because of things like magma draws and The nature of their units being kind of unkillable Right that kind of and it it's cool berserk. It feels like you're still playing the berserker army the experience, right? 100% like the the things that lean into the timmy portion are like the um, the what are they the um Uh, the two dudes the two like non leader heroes Yeah, the grim wrath was ever in the doom seeker or whatever, right? Like those are very timmy type heroes and what they can do and they can punch way above their weight and Like that kind of stuff. So I to me it's definitely towing in to timmy spike because of those elements because of like the mags the Yeah, because of the mags because of those types of heroes, but it's still very strongly spike, right? Like it is a very it's a unit or it's an army built on like sort of achieving through efficiency Of a pretty straightforward play style like I will grind out and win Right. Yeah I can still do some pretty terrifying lists in my opinion 3.0 like you can get I've been looking at some lists and running some lists and It's a while how much you can still get in 2000 points. Yeah, I'm pretty sure uh I I'm pretty sure that uh, there was a there was a fireslayer's list in one of those top 10s Yeah, it was like it's around still Yeah, even if there weren't I would have I would have Done my take where I'm like, oh this army can win because I do think like Ah mag like splashing in a magma draw or two like you can actually there's some compelling lists in there Yeah, I was worried that they could cure and see and that and would hurt them Too much But it's one of those things like everyone's playing with those new rules. So it It only hurt them as much as it hurt everyone else, you know, like and the right way to run them was 20s anyway, so Right, right 10 10 do work to any other person's 10 in the game. So Absolutely. Yeah All right, uh, cool. Yeah, I think that one's pretty pretty straightforward. I agree. So like, yeah, not much disagreement there It's it's sort of what it is I think that's why tom drifted away from it. It didn't have enough it didn't have enough gas in this johnny engine uh lumeneth realm lords Lumeneth realm lords i'll start on this one okay uh It is The johnniest of johnny that ever johnny to johnny Okay, like it wants to it is this it's this 100 percent it there's a really as I all many of my johnny examples so far have been Lumeneth examples the iconic as a lumeneth unit Right, um, you know, they again, they have some certainly some spike elements in some efficiency of things but uh and and sort of in the nature of like People, you know, just like oh, here's the thing that is is just pretty efficient on its own Um, severeth is a good example of like a pretty spike. Yeah, just the fox. Yeah, fox spam. Yeah Like fox spam five is a is a super Spiky type of thing, right? That's why joe cryer was playing it But yeah, love you joe, but that that's a crap list my friends get off that Just ridiculously talk segment where he flies up and and charge blocks everybody and then move blocks everybody Out the way from them. Yes The exact situation that I originally talked about being like the nightmare scenario. I I did it with Hurricanes, but he did it with foxes, but it's all the same Right at any rate. Yeah, you're a bad person joe. You should feel bad You're better than this joe. You're better than this. He's not he's been playing the horror spam scene for years He's not better than this The but it's like despite those occasional toe ins to there Like maybe the big mountain guy with his big five damage attacks is a little timmy Hammer the hammer dudes are like they they're they're pretty timmy sword masters I'd hear a case for literally any of the three like right, but and it's not that those elements aren't there You know they are But it is the army that breaks all the rules. It's the army that Lily says hold on. I have a response for that Right Like I'm gonna I'm gonna burn this I'm gonna burn a penny and then take away the bravery and give you the negative Bravery and then your people ran in battle shocks or but my people ran in battle shocks Now I give you neg five to your battle shock test and then also because my stone mage is here. My guy still fights Maximum efficiency and oh, it's the end of your shooting phase. I move away from you 12 inches Like like literally if I was trying to explain what Johnny is to somebody I I would say it's Illumina Yeah Yeah outside of the the foxes and Eliath sent a little spam where you're double tapping from unity purpose Although, you know, make sure you're following the rules on that like you have to be shooting at the charging unit You can't use one of those units to shoot at whatever that's within 30 inches I yeah, I don't really find them to be a spike army. No there. It's me. They're very Obviously, they're very Johnny, but there's you know, one of the things that people don't We realize until they play the army like you do the traditional checklist builds Is that they often don't pass the dps check the damage per second They don't often don't have burst damage and you'll lose games because you don't have that burst damage And they're still white on wounds like they're light on wounds Yeah, you can really struggle to win to win games with that army tech lives is absolutely the most Johnny of all the gods You can't stand in my brain. I said just replace Johnny's orange rectangle with the battle tone cover Yeah, exactly. Oh real quick. Let me answer real huntsman here. Hey real huntsman. Welcome, buddy He said just joined in. What is timmy johnny and spike? They are three psychographic profiles And we are talking about what? Psychographic profiles these armies tend to represent timmy wants to experience something Big moments big effects big cool things Johnny wants to express something often cleverness cleverness cleverness Cleverness to you know likes comboing and list tech and things like that and spike wants to prove something That can sometimes be winning but it can often be but it can be other things as well, but it's to you know sort of prove That uh, you know that they're the best that they've got the stuff. Yeah that they've got the stuff Yeah, so it's super Johnny is Johnny Johnny to Johnny Johnny again It can reach into these other two, but it's as Johnny is Johnny ever Johnnyed Yeah, okay, and the the lower seeker. Did you use the lower seeker as the example? Yeah. Yeah, I do because I mean yeah having Yeah, it's course having played He can be used wrong so easy. Oh my god. Yeah, there that might be the most Have the most variance of any model that I can think of in the game right now Just in terms of yeah, the yeah There's I've seen so many players use them well and other players just kind of throw them away A good, you know, sometimes a good use of them is he can force your opponent to have to go first, right? Taking away the double turn because I mean that's yeah, that's I found that to be a pretty good play Anyway, yeah, just a really fascinating piece. Very Johnny. Yep Uh, yep, I agree. All right soul blight grave lords All right math here's a stand Just my Virko shirt here Well, it's it for my asterisk bone reaper cup. Yep Um, so uh I have the the thought in my head But I I like thought experiments So I'm gonna actually like take a little bit of a different stance than what I what is in my head and see if I can prove it If that's all right I think that this is a Johnny Timmy army. Okay so It's got some efficiency going on and a like uh Belladama is what I want every 200 point wizard in the game that cast two spells to look like Okay, every single one of the game should all look like this is this is perfect But the two spells means decision-making the the buff circles and stuff like that. That's very Johnny um The way you're stacking your grave sites to now give yourself benefits To really really maximize this army's power You're thinking The grave sites alone are john Where you place them is going to dictate you're telegraphing how you're going to fight a game Or how you're going to play the game you're even playing a little like Like liars dice with people where you put that over there like they're wondering about it um So like the johnny is all over it the variance of scrolls the efficiency Or not the efficiency it's sort of the breadth of relevant scrolls Nothing's going to dazzle you but everything in its right place There's a role for zombies versus skeletons right now. Do you think you're going to be taking a punch or dealing a bunch? You're gonna it's going to dictate which one you're using Like the best list Have wolf i'd posit. Um And then you go into like the sub factions of vircos, you know Like vircos is the best because there's always the best sub faction but Like you said evangorai just won And this is where we start to see some of the timmy come out playing with big packs of zombies is tim Like it's not the most damaging thing in the world crit fishing for those those sixes to mortal wound Like there's ways to get more efficient damage out of this army. It's just fun to put 60 zombies on the table and go You know Like same thing with the monsters in this army. You look across it in like every monster. You're just like, yes awesome You know like a vlasda is the quint is one of those quintessential just like a uh, like hey Well, and I have conversations just throughout our entire tenure of the game What is the most monster of like a monster hero can be it's vlasda versus like, uh so Yeah, like it's if you got that one as a timmy piece like this is The timmy johnny piece because it's got the spells, right? But but pound for pound they're very They're very timmy and they're in how they're expressed on the table. So I think it actually starts to drift up into timmy Because I mean blood knights. You want to run castle? Like timmy like yeah, yeah level up mechanics in there. Yeah, like rp elements. Yeah, super simmy thing, right? Oh, my blood knights leveled up like three times. I have all the special abilities They they took a johnny army in in legions of negash jettisoned the bloat from the army and just put a bunch of and just stuffed timmy into it like That's why it's a great book Yeah, you know somewhere back here tidings said Yes, this is a johnny timmy with one or two pure spike units because of johnny combos And I agree with that. I think you're like map. I agree. I think this is a johnny timmy army I think it sits right in that middle space, right? Like you look at the the various builds that are in there it wants you to play in a timmy style It has some timmy units like um again things that are good not Not like, you know spike is like, yeah, this is fine You know, I mean like you can spike if you're that type of spike you can sort of get there with this, right? But this is absolutely like a combo army that has big also big cool pieces Four drives pure timmy moments and it just like I I agree. That's what I think it sits right in that space Um, you know, like it's just it isn't efficiency for efficiency sake. It needs the johnny elements the sort of johnny Play and cleverness applied to timmy pieces and then all of a sudden you can go to a million Yeah, right. Yeah 100% Yeah, the way that I think of iron jaws is a timmy johnny. It's that on star voids Right, so blights and that was that hell of a cell was 20 more units Yeah, exactly. That was a hell of a cell's job math. You know that Yeah, I will say that it's funny because both oryx and sole blight have level up mechanics What I mean by that is it and you think what does oryx have it? Well, every time the mega bosses kill somebody They gain a wound they gain an attack they get bigger, right? So it's the same thing with your vampires in sole blight. They kill certain things. They get bigger better, right? These sorts of rpg kill mechanics of like kill and grow Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah yeah Of the not not lakavai, but the unnamed one actually a good piece But it's it's got a big literal timmy mechanic on it that I could just berserk and run around and just do Stuff like such a it's such a great like it's just oh man, it's just reignited the fire inside of me. Sure Like the timmy spark that I like I keep inside but like sometimes drift away for my pure johnny-ness like I remember what it's like to be a like a small lad and love warhammer again. Yeah, sure Andrew asked what about forthose in melvin? There are appreciation profiles not psychographic profiles We could certainly align these things to those as well But you can you'd like they don't no part of being in one of those hedges out these like you you're you're overlap They're they're completely overlapping not exclusive Okay, uh Like they're testing for different questions basically all right three left Here we go Skaven Let's grab them rats Uh, I'll I'll start with this one. Okay. Yeah Hmm Skaven is obviously the most fair army right now Oh, yeah, we Did you hear that math last week? We still we established that on the show It has been it has been factually established. Yeah, the most fair Mathematically proven in the game beyond contestation. We have we have passed hypothesis. It's I've hired a team of scientists We've done double blind studies The FDA has agreed. This is the The most fair army in the game, right? Yeah, I appreciate the hyperbole. Mm-hmm, but I kind of agree like Don't go down that road. Don't do that. Don't don't validate him. Like no We're doing so well We're getting our average up on this show. We got 13 minutes to hit our average again at three hours 30 Let's not fill it with that hot air. Let's just move on I'll I'll be I'll be straightforward about this Uh Skaven is Timmy Johnny Okay, for the same things that you just said about soul blight I could literally just lift that entire speech and put it in here Right, like the units go big they use it use Johnny like cleverness on timmy type units to achieve You know unexpected outcomes, right? Now I will say it leans a little more Johnny than than soul blight just a little bit toolbox Because of the nature of the toolbox because the nature of like you have to really use your plays At exactly the right time like when you remember you need to skitter away and trigger your combos and stuff like that When do you burn your warps to your your your rocks your green rocks? You know things like that But it's still ultimately a Johnny timmy army. That's what it is You know, it's got big units of rats and big bells and like the screaming bell itself It's such a timmy piece as a reason it's always in my army, right because it is such a like Oh ring the bell for fun. Let's see what happens And boom demon lord vermin lord. Yeah, you know, like that's the you live in the dream Yeah, right? Yeah So it just you look at the mechanics the the baseline mechanics are very Johnny-ish the pieces are very timmy-ish You put the two together. That's where you end up I I agree no disagreements The only thing is like I feel like it goes a little bit more timmy and a little bit more Johnny In both respect like in both of the ways But it rubber bands it back into the middle as as firmly as soul like grave lords. Yeah Yeah Tyler any disagreement Just the usual, you know, stone friends with more more war power. Sure crap that that destroys your arguments, but you know Yeah, the storm friends with more more war power is like the super spike element that just shouldn't be there Right, but again, it's it's the exception that isn't the army, right? Like that's That's just a a fluke of this current World that just doesn't I don't think it defines a unit with like 70 armed with 70 units in it, you know, sure Yeah, that's fair. I get it Yeah, I show be on the dull where the storm friends touched you Tyler really You've been deeply wounded Like and I'm the person who plays nagash and like and you're the one who hates them Tyler Tyler, don't worry. I only run six Storm friends when I play so there we go. So I'm that's why that's my 10 snakebos right there. Yeah, it's all fair We're all yeah I'm good guy scaven flair. Don't yeah good guy. Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll take my sports votes now, please Exactly Behold my beneficence Yes Lay your sports votes at my feet. All right cities You want to you want to have you let off let off? Yeah cities They they strike me pretty johnny there can be you know spike choices, but but first of all most johnny I mean cities in sigmar lists are all over the place and they have so much creativity so much different expression All these different you're seeing living city. You're seeing emil guard Yeah, I've seen tons different lists over the past few weeks Finish you for god's sakes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's insanity So it's got I mean, it's another one of those does have some timmy elements I could see a little bit, but I mean for the most for the most part I would say Uh primary johnny secondary spike because you are potentially pulling from some some efficient choices starting with goat trick right now Yeah, sure. Yeah, the goat trick of it all. I'm not counting him in this in this I'm not gonna drag down like if if I if like goat trick is an anchor pulling this army down here It's just like rich just boom rocketing it down into spike territory, right? Yeah, if Just just to I agree 100 percent here If lrl is like the most johnny, you know like you can get I think cities of sigmar is the most like toolbox you can get and toolbox is quintessentially Yeah, they sort of represent two different aspects of johnny is what johnny is. Yeah. Yeah, right Yeah, absolutely because again, these things can have different expressions Right. This is one of the things that's really interesting. I'll link by the way rose waters original articles Where he talks about the sub Genres of these because it's actually really interesting when you look at the different sub genres of these like the sub johnny's Like one of the sub johnny's in magic is the the innovator like the list guy Who's just like always like just really trying to make the most creative possible list to just like dazzle people with like Whoa, I did not see you ripping that card out, right? Just tacking your face off, right? Yeah, this is the person who's wishing for grape shot to kill you the first person whoever realized you could do that Right, right. And like that's so cities. Yeah, right because that's the assassins in the finicia Yeah, right, right. Yeah That is like that Boom Yeah, whereas the the wombo combo. I'm gonna execute counterspell johnny player kind of like control player is luminev Right and those are sort of two different expressions of that personality. Yeah, yeah But I mean, I definitely do have some spike elements to me. That's not just go trick I mean, I think uh, I was the 30 iron drakes. We've had that forever You know, we've got some other choices Lumen arcs like For a spell Haven't seen them as much. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I mean Huracanum, maybe it's what you're thinking a mess. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, yeah Huracanum iron drakes Phoenix guard like total spike. He's the huracanum. Yes agreed like just efficiency in 10 cities, right? Like it's it's for what it's bringing Um Yeah, so like I I agree I pushed it down in the rank more towards spike because I think it does fall down that direction Like it's definitely towing in 10 20 spike, right? Yeah, but yeah, like I agree All right, last one. Oof saved the Best for last something for last He knights hit me mafko I mean, it wants to be I think it wants to be like johnny timmy, but it's it leans This could be my bias. I think it leans johnny right now It there's really no way to play this army viably without pulling some list wizardry or table with like you're just I It's a finesse army It's it's not doing the the the timmy thing where you want to just shove keepers of secrets down people's faces and Run 30 30 blocks of daemonettes and you want to do you don't do that though You even want like the cool back breaking charges with these really really awesome new cavalry pieces. You're not doing that Um, I mean you're you're playing a finesse sort of like Dink and doink army. That's just you know sort of got you in people around. It's like uh, Like a fencer, you know, like just with a parry dagger. You're just kind of like And then you do have this like sort of like time bomb of like some really actual solid summoning to but If you're tabled before you get to summon your summoning didn't mean that much. So I mean, it's it's a johnny It's a johnny army to me. Okay. All right Yeah, yeah, I mean that's pretty much what I see as well Yeah, and when i'm seeing the results, uh, the people who are picking it up I mean, I think a byron face hammer byron's a very johnny player He's been playing slanesh talking about, you know, leaning really having a hell of a time I mean, I mean he was like the mixed order just yeah byron exactly Right like yeah, yeah, yeah Uh, but yeah, it started out as as a timmy spike army Where you got incredible efficiency. I mean, that's yeah, that's hardcore what it was when it came out and like a good friend of mine He at brice he absolutely loved it and then that went away and he's kind of that kind of player and you know, so now he's playing spry spry's Gargants because there are you know, sort of timmy spike or spike timmy right now. Yeah, and yeah, yeah So yeah, I think you generally know that I I agree with your historical read when it came out It was a hundred percent like timmy hard spike, right like yeah, because it was just so efficient at what it did my argument is It's johnny spike Now I know that sounds strange because it's also a hard book But the reason I say it's johnny spike is because one if you're partially if you're playing this army You are trying to prove something right Like you have to prove that you can do this, but it's the beast of chaos effect. Yeah, two. There are also elements in it They're still very spiky. Okay The pylon control is a very sort of johnny spike element, right? Yeah, uh, the summoning is a very spiky element like it's hyper efficient Okay pylon control. Yeah, you're you're locus Your locus stops. Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm thinking of the the slick blade seekers battalion. That's No, yeah, that's yeah. Yeah. No, just the fact that on four up slash three up you can stop right? That's right. Um, so it encourages this sort of like This sort of spiky johnny type play right that that intersection is what that locus is is about now What detracts from it being more spiky is that that's still a three up four up roll It's not slobby bilepiper. Just going like and just nailing it, right? Yeah, so you can't bet on it um The the the nature of the thing Is that it has it does have efficient summoning. It does have you know the ability to A couple solid mechanics. Yeah a couple like pretty solid mechanics But it's ultimately like it is such a finesse army You have to use to get the spike out of it. You have to channel your inner johnny. I like that. Yeah, right But it wants to it wants to play that game by like this tic tac exact play win Right, it's not doing anything else Which is the opposite axiom of what it used to be which was spike timmy Like I mean they're basically that's going to be like if it were a color wheel or we did this more like a venn diagram Those would be like kind of opposed to each other. Yeah, it flipped on its head Like this was the hard part for me with the army Yeah, yeah, right like I didn't mind when we were nerfed down, but I could still play the army in sort of the way I wanted That's makes sense But now that it flipped into this sort of play style that's probably like if you look across that line Of what it's there with None of those armies are the things I I play Right, right. Yeah, because it's sort of the least interesting play style to me Right. You like your timmies. I'm up there. Like, yeah, you like your yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah Go ahead. What were you saying? No, love it. Yeah, I think I think that's spot on it's it's interesting because like as we've been talking about this I've kind of also been Gleaning insights into into Both of how you see the game. Sure You know, which has been you know, it's just some of these things that I didn't quite quantify because You know, I you are a very cerebral person Vince and so I expect you to be more in line with like wanting some johnny stuff and you're like not get that johnny crap out of here You know like a proper timmy johnny can like bring you back but like If you were talking johnny spike, you're not interested in that right or don't seem to be No, I agree. It's it's like Now it's funny because I'm Like the army I'm playing this weekend is me banging cities Into a johnny sort of spike type of or sorry into a johnny timmy type of build right ironically Uh, like relying on sort of wombo combos and stuff like that to achieve big effects And power projection and stuff like that. It's this is the most johnny-ish list. I've ever brought to a tournament I mean, I'll say that absolutely So, uh, we'll see we'll see how that all works out It's it's not a bad sort of like bell curve that's developed here either by right Right, like I mean there's not as much timmy as I'd like But if I mean if we flip the to where these these sort of timmy spike armies were at the top We'd have to show a little bit more timmy representation. I think is what you'd see I mean, I think it's interesting that all of the destruction armies as I would have guessed Are either in or toe in to timmy in some way, right every one of them Right, like it's where like destruction is the home of timmy Right, which explains why I have an ogre army an orc army and a son's army All right, like Yep, and I I enjoy them I don't like the goblins because to me the goblins fall too much But there's both a personal aesthetic taste here, but they also fall to me a little more into the johnny category Right, they're just they've tipped over a little too far for me. I I like that death has a nice spread Like we we got You want you you want your timmy like play fleshier your courts are so black grave lords and lean Lean a little bit more into your timmy like you want your you know, you want your spike, uh, yeah Yeah, it's it's kind of cover the basis, right? Yeah, it also has two of the most pure expressions right now In knight hawn and ocr, right, which I agree with both fell into that category Yeah, um, yeah, so there you go. All right. This man fascinating guys. I really enjoyed this. Yeah, this was fun Uh It's uh, I think it's funny. Arturia said it's odd that fire slayers should be the only order army that approaches timmy Yeah, yeah, that's true. That is interesting. I hadn't thought about that, but that's a really great observation Arturia is yeah They're just sort of not you look at the order armies It's just not the experience that you tend to get out of them, right? They tend to be either falling into the like efficiency wind curve Right, or they they're in the like wombo combo Be super clever area right In in I mean we haven't brought in fluff and flavor per se and this has been from a mechanical Playing the game aspect of it But if you think about like sort of the narrative of of order that does make a certain kind of sense You know like having to be structured and Good and efficient and to try to like sort of fight back the wilds and now I'm doing the narrative thing here The sort of narrative is there the underdogs They have to work together and combine right and so they are they almost like sort of at a meta level They sort of build in Johnny this Right is what you're saying. Yeah, yeah Yes, I can post a picture of this I will save off this picture now that we have assigned it and I will tweet it out So follow me at warhammer weekly on twitter if you want to get this image. I will tweet it out There you go Um Cool Love I love I love slaves the doctor's just hanging out all hanging out all three Yes, the perfect book it gets a little gold star. Yeah, uh, all right, gentlemen. Well, this was a lot of fun This was an episode I got real excited about uh For for doing a little while back and I'm math. I'm super glad you were able to join us. This was fantastic, brother Man anytime and I love I love the the the thinking episodes where you really Getting into this this this was great and Tyler It's been so long since we hung out. So this is just I know dude. It's an honor, man. Yeah, I missed you. I can't wait to see you in person, buddy Yeah, yeah, we'll uh, we'll have to grudge or get it or just set aside some time next time we're gonna be at bruce city I'm gonna make an appearance. I'm gonna make an appearance. I'm gonna show I can't take the weekend off Unfortunately, okay, I'm gonna show up like saturday night or friday night or something like that. All right. Well, so I'm gonna be there, man All right, gentlemen. Well good show all of you out there. Thank you so much. Hit that like button if you haven't already We really appreciate it. It's so easy. It's just clicking a little button and it helps other people find this show And if you disagree with any of our picks, uh, put it down in the comments. Tell us what you think Uh, the army actually should be and why? Uh, but at any rate hit that like subscribe if you haven't already meff absolute pleasure as always, buddy Can't wait to have your back on again. Tyler. Thank you as always for all of you. We're gonna be at nashcon I'll see you in a couple days for the rest of you as always. We'll see you next wednesday