 Okay, we're going to start the first session of the climate change of the building scale summit There will be a second session on April the 5th It's been organized by David Benjamin here. Thea Jamal Edin here and myself and yes, Hake As plural tour puts it we live in a new regime a new climatic regime And that's something that is shaking our societies in a very deep way The building it's something that is being redefined Not only the building as a as an artifact or as an apparatus, but also the very practice of building What it means what it implies? What is the way that we do it? Climate change is not a problem that architecture better architecture more effective architecture more detailed architecture Will make disappear But something that undermines the modern paradigm in which a big part of these same practices have been founded on Columbia is up search a clear environmental focus. It has the this building Has a long history of discussing environmental issues ecological issues climatic issues And it's something that has a trajectory the urban design initiatives can have been Discussing climate change for a long time of the Buell Center has posed the question of climate together with the CCA with the Canadian Center of architecture from the perspective of architectural history and Theory Columbia books has produced a major Work on climate change climate architecture and the planetary imaginarium Climate change in the way. It's been discussed here is both a commitment to face the planetary challenge challenges we face but also in understanding architectural device as entities that exist in the interaction with others and Unfold across scales This particular summit is doing something different where to what is been happening here before We're looking at the scale of buildings or at the building scale climate change as something that it's on the one hand Discussing scales itself and making us understand them differently But also as a way to discuss what buildings have to do with climate change and what's the way that that very notion It's transformed now We also interrogate what is The sense of urgency that we're dealing with or what it implies for our practices That's why we call it summit Summit because we're facing things that are unavoidable It's not an a cultural speculation but it's something that we engage politically and We need also to find ways to situate this discussion to find particular specific realities We we can address in detail materials locations evolution of geographies forms of politics specific things that are Changing and that we have to reengage with it's not about let's say keep doing the same things But also acknowledging that our practices are becoming something very different We also think of a summit as a place that needs to produce something needs to produce a Knowledge or needs to produce tools or it needs to produce references that somehow change the course of the discussion and the course of Practices, so we consider this and this is something that we've been discussing in depth as a working session that We would encourage everyone to to to use as a way to produce Knowledge and we're also thinking of a format that could enable to get in depth There's a series of first bird conversations among practitioners or Teams that basically will talk of a very particular project one project allowing them there to Go in detail to go in depth into the the development of that project and then having a self Driven conversation with their per Also, we have done an effort to test arch up or to to be sensitive and to find or to experiment ways to reduce the The impact of the environmental impact of these sessions Some of the you will see that some of the people are connecting online avoiding to increase basically the the missions and Consumptions by flying people unnecessarily and the people that are here that are not based in New York mainly Had other things to do so we're we're trying also to experiment with the formats and we We would very much appreciate your patience if things get difficult at one point Great. Well, thank you Andres most of you probably know this but I'm David Benjamin director of advanced studios and in part of his capacity of co-organizing this Andres is a director of the AAD program. So that's partly to say that this is a series of events that's both a Required part of the advanced studios curriculum So this is basically a class But it's also a public forum For exploring critical issues that are important to the to the world more broadly as Dean Amal Andreos has stated at G-SAP climate change It could be considered ground zero for a shared discussion about architecture's engagement with the world The magnitude and the stakes could not be clearer But at the same time architectural action on climate change involves the territory of uncertainty Climate change is complex and no single formula is adequate responding to climate change Requires not only technical aspects such as energy consumption and carbon footprint But also social and political aspects such as inequality and public policy So on the one hand we might draw on history in these kind of discussions for example One interesting reference for me is that in 1973 a young Swiss architect named Walter Stahill Was working on a study for the Commission of the European Communities and searching for ways to save large amounts of energy in the construction industry Instead of looking at technologies such as more efficient lighting or cooling Stahill actually turned to behavior patterns and socio-economic issues in explaining his line of thinking he noted that quote some of our major problems are interlinked and Cannot be solved one by one Stahill and his collaborator Genevieve red a Mulvey Eventually reached the conclusion that these problems could be best addressed by Their term Substituting manpower for energy in a report called jobs for tomorrow They wrote the creation of new skilled jobs can be achieved in parallel with a considerable reduction of energy consumption Through and this is their term Prolongation of the useful life of materials and products Stahill and ready Mulvey called this prolongation Reconditioning and they had in mind repairing and tuning up cars as well as renovating and adaptively reusing buildings Furthermore the report emphasized that the jobs created by reconditioning would be fulfilling meaningful ones for the workforce So Stahill and ready Mulvey's line of thinking itself was not new Of course all accounts of industrialization involve an increase in productivity Due to machines taking over the labor of humans which basically translates to Machines consuming energy to do work instead of humans and animals consuming food to do work But at the same time it was refreshing for Stahill and ready Mulvey to suggest that this trend could be Actually selectively reversed through humans taking back some of the work from machines Although this was not new this articulation was certainly influential and Stahill eventually extended it into the actionable mantra that we all know. Well of reduce reuse recycle also to the concept of cradle-to-cradle and to the framework of a circular economy all of which Inform our current understanding of climate change at the building scale So on the one hand we might draw on history and at the same time in this kind of discussion We might also draw on science as this audience probably knows well in the fall of 2018 The United Nations intergovernmental panel on climate change Released a report that was both familiar and unfamiliar It built on facts. We already knew about climate change Carbon emissions caused warming which causes sea level rise and extreme weather and loss of biodiversity Which in turn causes disease and hunger and migration and human death But it also reached a new conclusion The world has only 12 years to halt carbon emissions and avoid the most catastrophic global effects The warming target of 1.5 degrees Celsius rather than 2.0 degrees is required not optional the difference of half a degree dramatically improves our odds of preserving any coral reefs at all Avoiding the collapse of insect life escaping the trigger of irreversible planetary transformation and minimizing drought floods extreme heat and poverty for hundreds of millions of people Urgent and unprecedented action is required not eventually now But most importantly in this context we should think about design So we should think about history. We should think about science, but we should also think about design and The contribution of this series as Andres was describing Contribution to the discussion that's already taking place at GSAP and elsewhere is to start from the practice of architectural design and kind of build out Advanced studios at this school have a unique opportunity to address climate change at the scale of the building and to address climate change through design and With this in mind We've invited an amazing and diverse group of speakers to help us explore these topics today and in our next session later this semester Some of the questions we might engage include how might buildings be designed with the scope that extends beyond a single site client and moments in time What are specific and actionable methods for addressing carbon footprint Biodiversity and social equity What are the best ways to balance? quantitative and qualitative factors in design and perhaps Also, how should architects design in a context of increasing uncertainty as Andres mentioned this is a session that's meant to be a kind of working session. We encourage a lot of participation from the audience and I will now after kind of having given an overview of our thinking behind these This series of events. I will introduce our very first panel and we'll jump right into the presentations and discussion So this first session will involve presentations from Ginger Krieg Dozier Nicola Dellon and Julian Chopin in this session will address climate change at the scale of the building by looking at building materials We'll look at low embodied energy low Embodied carbon materials as well as materials that are grown from living biological organisms And we'll also look at strategies of material salvage and material reuse our first speaker is Ginger Krieg Dozier. She's co-founder and chief executive officer at biomasan a new startup company Utilizing natural biological processes for growing cement construction materials biomasans products make it possible to manufacture in ambient temperatures enabling savings in energy costs and zero carbon emissions Krieg Dozier has over seven years of business experience working with a diverse team of scientists engineers architects builders Investors granting agencies and strategic partners her background includes sustainable material development from prototype to commercialization and environmental architecture prior to founding biomasan She worked as an assistant professor of architecture at the American University of Sharjah in the UAE and North Carolina State University I've known Ginger for several years been inspired by her work and it's a real personal pleasure for me to welcome her to present today Ginger Thank you so much David for the warm introduction First of all, thank you all for for joining. I know this is an audience that Is primed and ready to you know discuss, you know The conditions of climate change in a summit type of setting and I'm happy that I'm able to be part of that conversation today So I want to start with this line Following David's introduction of you know, where we are today. This is a line that wakes me up every morning It's it's definitely something that I feel is is amplifying and what this line is is from NASA So the the climate group at NASA They're you know doing everything they can to measure just how much CO2 we have in our atmosphere right now and You know, you can see the line is going off the charts You know it 411 parts per million and that's what that was in January and I can assure you that it will continue to go up after that so For me, this is you know It's it's a ever-driving sign of motivation that we need to be able to find a way to Flatline and then go down from this incredible Problem that we have with with actually what I believe is a it's a resource that we can utilize carbon dioxide So we're going to have to science the shit out of this essentially and taken, you know Matt Damon's words from the Martian, but You know, there's there's not a silver bullet answer to to what's happening with CO2 It is going to take a lot of different technologies and brains together to really figure this out But I do believe we are all up for the challenge right now The 19th and 20th centuries were the ages of chemistry and physics Many advances were happening at those times and as you can see from the data All a lot of you know population growth was happening at the same time in the drive to build materials do different types of Technologies were all Reliant on our understanding at that time of chemistry and physics And it's been said recently that the 21st century is the age of biology and I highly believe that because I do think that you know if you look at Just bacteria themselves only Less than a thousandth of a percent of bacteria have been discovered So there are several, you know just looking at one fragment of biology in terms of the microorganisms There are lots of potential an opportunity for different types of learnings and technologies that can be embedded and gained and gleaned from that By a technology just as a sector is ever-growing There are lots of advances made every day in the field whether it be in how we grow food fertilizers All the way to what I'm going to introduce is a way to grow materials So my background is in architecture. I I view the world through that lens from very early on I From from early even in school I went to Auburn University for my undergrad and I had an opportunity there to do a lot of design build With Samuel Mockby. He started the rural studio and what was incredible about that is that? You know there there was a drive to make things to do things not just talk about them But actually you know physically get on the ground and build so That's that's where I started from and then after that I I worked for a little while and then I went to graduate school at Cranbrook Academy of Art and started to explore different ideas around material and Right before I went to Cranbrook I had moved five times and I had all these different possessions and each move I realized I was losing more and more of these possessions and they were just saddled on to me So when I was at Cranbrook part of my exploration there Were it was looking at materials that would dissolve when you were done with them And then it started to lead into different types of materials that were about performance and looked at porosity So ways of actually embedding intelligence and building materials that had something to do with a sustainable focus So for example Materials that had a high you know high and sort of value. They self-healed. They absorbed pollution All of those ideas were very early in them What when I left Cranbrook one of the things that I took with me was You know that this next step what I what did I want to really look at next and spend a considerable amount of bandwidth on and I had just finished reading this incredible book called by mimicry Written by Janine Banias and she goes through the book and she lists Different examples of scientists and how they're learning to make different materials By studying nature and this book came out in 1997, but it's still so relevant even today And throughout the book I remember reading about marine Environments and marine structures and that we still haven't figured out how to make glue as strong as a barnacle So a lot of these you know topics were we're starting to be discussed and so One night I was actually doing an internship in New York at over architects And I was sleeping on the floor and thought I want to grow a brick So that's where that's where my my mind started in terms of trying to figure out how how can you grow a brick? Brick is a ubiquitous Form of construction. It's it's very easy to understand It's a it's a modular unit and a platform that really started to embed a way of You know trying to tackle a science within a certain form So this slide here what one thing that I want to mention is We've had a lot of advances in terms of stone and masonry types of construction over the years And you know if we just look at the very beginning I mean stromatolites are an Incredible material that is biologically created. It's the one of the oldest Biological fossils that says stone like material and then we moved You know into clay brick So we started to take dirt and clay and add fire and have a strong and durable material and then stone masonry Happens which in some cases were places or Enhances the mate this the brick masonry construction and then we we invented Roman concrete and then we forgot How to do it? So there's a period of time that you can see between Roman concrete and Portland cement which was invented in 1824 By the way in someone's kitchen, which is incredible And that started to change everything You had populations that were increasing everyone's you know moving to an urbanization, you know levels You started to have reinforced concrete so Construction could get much higher and more dense within that And then I just lead here that in 2015 we had our first installation of a biological cement so in looking at these different materials you can see that we've had some Severe impact from that. This is a stone quarry The stone doesn't replace itself. It is a finite resource Then going into bricks Over 800 million tons of CO2 are released every year from just the clay brick industry and that's simply because you're taking you know a Actually, you're taking agricultural land and converting that into a Material that becomes inert, but you're using such a high energy source to be able to do that And then lastly cement What's interesting about the manufacturing of Portland cement is that you start with calcium carbonate which? Comes from limestone deposits Likely biologically created and you take that and you burn it at high temperatures Just to get the calcium and you release the carbon so for every pound of Portland cement that's produced you have a pound of CO2 that's emitted from that and Concrete as widely used as it is is the second most consumed substance on the earth following water and Recently a report from the Chatham house in June of 2018 Mentioned that it was responsible for 8% of global CO2 The last number that I recall reading about just how much CO2 was being emitted from the production of Portland cement was 5% And that came from Columbia University and now it's 8% So why being less bad is not good enough so In terms of architectural materiality you're looking at you know your your bricks your concrete your stone There are certainly ways that you can make things better. I call them band-aids You you can you know try to find a different Supply of energy you can you know some some manufacturers are taking tires and burning those instead of using fuel which You have more problems even from that. I don't think it's I don't think being less bad is good I think you're you're not addressing the real problem of what's happening You have to go to the molecular Understanding of what you need that material to do and how you can make it better with different supply chains So by Mason has it has a different vision by Mason started in 2012 I Was teaching architecture at the time and I was doing this research of trying to grow a brick in my second bedroom And once I started to get things working I had a big decision to make and that decision was to stop what I was doing and put all of my efforts Into getting a company off the ground because I believed it was the best way to make the impact as fast as I could So at by Mason we have We're very ambitious ambitious, but we have a vision and mission that really looks at finding ways of replacing The way that we make materials in specific cementitious based materials So looking at nature, this is a beautiful coral It was something that was quite intriguing to understand again You know looking at some of the work that Janine Banias is doing But when you start really getting down to how the structure of coral which is a strong and durable cement That's made at ambient temperatures underwater. It doesn't hurt the surrounding environment in fact it helps the surrounding environment in terms of how it's produced and One of the things that I learned when I was researching how I wanted to understand well How how is this possible? How do you you know? How does? How do these different geometries take place how you know? All of those make a lot of sense in terms of how it actually performs as a composite material and what I learned was that the coral As it's growing has a symbiotic relationship with a microorganism and that microorganism is what's Possible for allowing a if you think of a 3d printer a small You know laminar Templating of just where the calcium carbonate crystals are starting to form and so you know again Think of it like a 3d printer and you start to get this type of arrangement fascinating simply because it's something that is It's a place for us to start it's a place for us to try to understand how not just how we can mimic this but employ it So what we do is is we literally grow the cement with bacteria. We use a natural organism that comes from a marine environment We partner with nature, which is one way that I like to describe it to create the strong and durable cements similar to coral reefs And we form them with the building blocks of calcium and carbon And carbon is sequestered into the calcium carbonate So it was important for us as we're going through this journey And you know from an architectural perspective is truly trying to understand how we can Mold and shape these different supply chains together So we believe our cement is revolutionary not evolutionary We're not taking something that currently exists like Portland cement just trying to make it better We're trying to just do it a different way a better way And so what's different about bias cement as compared to Portland cement is that you can predict the strength of that It has an engineered performance. It's three times stronger than a concrete block We do have some development where we're actually getting much higher than that And it's producing completely ambient conditions and that was very important for you know You're taking a biological system and making it You know work in a condition that it wants to work within and there are any co2 emissions So something that's that's unique about how this works And I'm gonna go through just quickly just catch up to speed on how this takes place But what's different is that you're creating a structural lattice between grains of aggregate itself So this is a very basic overview of how how it works. So we take an aggregate base We we use We try to use as many byproducts as we can But you can use natural or waste or high-performance aggregates and then those get mixed with bacteria Everything is really developed around an existing infrastructure of how we currently make cementitious materials so We use the same type of mixer that you would use for concrete And we use the same type of press that you use to make concrete blocks or bricks Once the aggregate is mixed with the biologics it it goes into something that's a little bit different Than what you would do with a normal concrete block or say a clay brick We put it in a growth chamber where it's almost like hydroponics where it gets fed a solution of water Which can be non potable or sea water in a calcium source carbon source and a nitrogen source So we're essentially feeding it and recirculating that mixture over the material And then between 48 and 72 hours the final product is complete The reason why it ranges between 48 72 goes back to the engineered performance So if you're trying to make applications that need to meet certain specifications that have a higher strength That's where the time equivalency comes in and it's the same composition as natural stones So that's something else that's important for us is that we're essentially making limestone or sandstone within that This is what it looks like under the microscope when it's growing So, you know, you can start to see those structural lattices starting to form and how that behavior of the cement is Engaged with the aggregate particle We call this a progressive cement as opposed to a one-shot cement So if you're familiar with concrete and have had made anything out of it You know, you hope you mix the right amount of water because once you've mixed the water You start the catalytic reaction and you start to have the hardening process Because this cement grows Progressively you can actually take it's it's a lot stronger because you're creating those structural lattices and it Starts to become more dense essentially as it's growing Oh and something that's interesting about this and we're fascinated by looking at these images, but You can see the fossils of the microorganisms as well And also, you know in this lower portion here you can start to see rings of how This grows over time So something that over the past seven years that we learned, you know We started with with bricks and there's certainly a large market for bricks and and pavers But what we realized is that this is more of a platform technology that there are several different applications That can be made with this so you know started with pavers We're doing tiles and bricks. We're also doing things like dust control. We're also doing Marine cement that self-heels We're moving into mortar and then ready mix concrete So we're trying you know to not make a one-to-one replacement for materials But we're trying to see just how many different applications that this technology can start to do As a as a company and and just as a way of thinking cost quality skill and life cycle analysis are what govern a lot of our decisions that we make So just in terms of costs, you know Clearly we couldn't make something that was you know prohibitively expensive To use or you know for us having that Impact as a goal is very important. So the cost had to be low The components are activated by water which is also very important for when we work with partners quality Things that were you know, we're still learning all the different aspects of the material We test them like NASA all the time, but we realize that they retard water absorption The installation methods are the same and that's critical for for any to any new material coming to market You can't change everything So you have to find ways that it fits within a paradigm of installation and in skill sets The color and texture can be customized They can be made lighter than traditional materials and they exceed the performance and again That's that's something that we found to be very important about just how we Approach new materials is that they had to be better. They couldn't just be green or sustainable They actually had to start competing on the triple threat scale They don't shrink during manufacturing. This is a little technical and highly specific, but Concrete and clay shrink about between 8 and 10 percent during manufacturing Which can pose a lot of problems just in terms of how they're installed We use the same equipment for production that you would use for concrete block or brick and the process is automated And in terms of life cycle analysis So this is the biggest governance that we have is that it's sequesters carbon Non-potable water can be used and that's very important for us just in looking at a lot of different regions around the world Where clay and concrete are widely used you have to use potable water and in some cases that proves to be very difficult It's produced in ambient temperatures They can exhibit self-healing properties and the raw resources are waste So just going through some some quick history. This was our first pilot plant We realized we had to be the first ones to do it If we're gonna do something that we can train other people how to do so our first plant was a lot different than our current production It were you know a lot of it was was taken from the hydroponics industry We had an we use that plant to produce different orders. This one in particular was for Paving in San Francisco Which is the image here and right now we're focusing much more on tile We can grow different shapes and sizes but the tile really started To come about for us as a way to engage a much more broad audience and much more wide use of application So these are some images of our production We're pressing these units out. They go into curing. So you can see just how they're arranged here And then the only thing that we do a lot is we have to measure CO2 So believe my time is up. So I will leave it on That Which is that I don't believe that there is a silver bullet for for different ways of making material But that we all have to bring our technologies together. Thank you so much Okay, we're gonna have one more presentation and then a little bit of a discussion here up at the table on core Herro was founded in 2001 by Nicola Dalen and Julian Chopin the firm works at a range of scales on buildings installations games and exhibitions winner of the new albums of young architects in 2005 The agency has designed and delivered several cultural buildings both public and private Including a concert hall a cinema a museum and an innovation center in In 2014 the architects curated an exhibition at the arsenal pavilion in Paris on the theme of the reuse of materials in architecture in 2015 the agency won the design concept for the Paris site for COP 21 and Subsequently created the pavilion circular an experimental architecture Demonstrating a variety of reuse possibilities Since 2016 Sebastian Amard has joined the firm as a third partner and the team is now composed of about 20 architects and is developing About 15 projects throughout France. So continuing our theme in this panel of Materials and material possibilities as they intersect Climate change at the building scale. I'd like to welcome Julian Chopin from Paris In one way I was very proud to be invited by such a great university Astronomy talk about climate issues to share with you experiences But in another way, I couldn't forget that my flight would Have a huge impact around one time of C02 And so to solve the dilemma, I decided to stay here in Paris I don't want to blame anybody, but I wanted to try for myself the consequences of this kind of decision and I can just confess So it's not easy to set the limit. I Went thrice in Europe, and it's really an amazing place especially for European architects. I remember when I discovered the city after a Rand-Colas book Delirium to New York and so inspiring but actually in France We are around 10 tons of C02 by person for a year And if we want to respect Paris Climate Agreement, we need to be between two or three zones And this zone we avoid by doing this guide, this video conference, is finding maybe the easy one Of course in our work we are trying to give up low carbon solutions But I think we also must Experiment directly what will you see mean in all the other parts of our lives So, I'm Julien Chopin, architect, one of the two founders of Hong Kong And we started the office in 2001 with Nicolas Delon, my partner At the left on the picture, and now we are 28 people We have different activities as part installation, debating, and research by creating, exhibition and writing books And for this presentation, I would like to explain to you how we get into this reflection about reusing materials And I will show you one exhibition and three projects we made Everything starts with a trove, 12 years ago We were designing the temporary art exhibition for the French railway company Immutrain And we made a specific design with nice materials There are pretty gas mirrors, nice fabric And for three months at the end of the exhibition, everything was destroyed And became waste and garbage The materials were in really good shape, but nobody cares and requires not a question from the client Even for us, because nobody asked us to think about that And we were focusing on doing the best projects We didn't imagine that the material should have another life And so we tried to keep some stuff between the summer, this big mess, and we were very disappointed So the first experience we did in reusing materials was for a project for a Petit Ban It's a protein making on the scene in Paris There is a concert hall with some folk music, it's a restaurant on the terrace on the top It was built in a chicart near Paris We reused old bastard to make routine gardens on the terrace And Petit Ban means small baths It's a kind of joke to play with the name of the place 40 Bastards were collected during a housing renovation This was the building where the Bastards were coming from So the first job was to paint the outside in white and design the wooden bases It wasn't yet real architecture, but it was our first experience on reclaiming materials So five years ago, we had the chance to be the creators of an exhibition in Le Valier Barcelona As you say, the architectural centre in Paris On this, there's a topic of reusing materials It's called matélite, which has a deeper meaning in French On one side it means a dark side of the materials A grey part is pollution, and on the other side it means intelligence And the idea was to be clear enough to see the waste potential We thought it would be confidential, but this exhibition was a real success And we welcomed 100,000 people Two main parts The first one was very dark, about the addition of natural resources to build And we used some simple tools to express complex ideas For example, we used equally built-ins models to represent the world metal transformation Around 2 billion tons each year It means the same as 20 effort hours each hour We wanted to show our global footprint, focusing on materials, as sand for concrete or copper The second part was very positive With 75 examples from all over the world Showing architectural experiments at any scale and for a different type of progress So first, the idea was to focus on our double line The big division of resources, and at the same time the big amount of waste And maybe we could be playing and reusing to build a response between these two proposals The second idea was about the urban mining Just recognize that our two-day buildings were made in Matheille Dam for tomorrow's building The third idea was on historical design In the past, we claimed and reused Matheille Dam Was not an exception, but was a rule It's a main way of building So we don't need to invent something completely new, but just come back to business And the last idea was a cocktail, the Matheille mix In order of preference, we should use first organic materials Wood and all the other natural rocks Then made in Ukraine Then recycled, and finally 40 rocks And maybe the organic rig we just saw before is on the top To go forward after this exhibition The first architectural project we did with this principle was a temporary pavilion Called Circular pavilion Built for a UN climate conference in 2015 in Paris As an example of circular economy in architecture We first worked on a harvest map to connect different elements Lighting, wooden doors, condemnation, chairs on waste collection Insulating panels from a warehouse in renovation This is a wonderful door, 80 years old On site, ready to be used as a facade The chairs left in the streets by the Parisian in one month We fix them and paint them And this is the building site near the Baudelaire Paris Curro We are in the very centre of Paris near Notre-Dame Percefo And we wanted to design an iconic building as a manifesto This is the project complete With a specific facade And in this case the shape of the building itself Comes from the facade We don't wait for any volume from the sky to design the facade But our architectural conception is a reaction And the shape of the material itself helps us design Inside there is a space maybe white And the wall panels came from public exhibition as a draw At the end, 80% of the wall construction are from retained materials The second project I want to show is a turnout installation In this space called Passage on Yoram We are still in Paris This is the highest view of the day To be highway around Paris And since few years, the city of Paris experienced citizen growth To make projects for the people And one of them was to design something under this public bridge Where you can find in the weekend The kind of legal black market Which is the big free market in central Paris We propose the idea of the passage Like with an interpretation of typical walls Described by water volume There was wood, collars and mirrors And this is a simulation of the same project in the weekend With the black market And then we ask the garage name to save the Yoram panels And this is the result of two months' collection We start them in our office And cut them to the right dimensions We prepare the reconstruction And this is the final result And with the market And the aim of this project was to perform Dignity for these people who live From what they found in the street And in a way we wanted to use the same method To make architecture And this is the passage by night And the last project Is the one we are working on Called La Grande Hall in Côte-en-Bêle In Normandy The site is now an industrial waste land And there was this Amazing concrete building Which we become an industrial centre A co-working space about circular women And we are keeping one part as it is To host different events The other part are working spaces and restaurants And because it is a permanent public equipment We work very hard to convince All the permissions to reuse materials We develop a specific method To follow the material tree From the construction to our building site In this project we get the part of the budget To organise the collection of reclaimed materials As doors, wood beams, radiators, insulation panels, windows And for example this is a wood story With the old house in front The big city close to the site And there is the deconstruction time There is transport and reprocessing And finally the integration in the project And another example of the facade Where we wanted to reuse windows And this is a black fence in the picture We use the same method To give a spine And then we designed a project To adapt the dimension But unfortunately just before the construction All the windows were stolen It was a very hard time for the team But we didn't give up And last year we started by building A small temporary space to welcome workers And have meetings during the construction And here also in these small buildings All the materials are coming from around And if we don't have any other problems The building will open next September And made it for the conclusion Because it was our last experience And this year of you guys Had the chance to see it We are making the French pavilion This year at Venice Architecture and Design And this is the beginning of the French pavilion And as you may know There is alternative architecture and art And just before us The French Ministry of Culture Asked the artist Zéle Leion To design the pavilion And this project was called Studio Vénédia And we made this wonderful Real vénédia studio To invite a lot of musicians today Different kind of music each day And all was made of wood In a kind of total design And as an audience And because it's very difficult To transport materials in Venice We ended it as artwork To rebuild a new space With the same materials To create a new vision Thanks very much Thank you for that One of the questions that I Immediately came up with With the approach that you have In terms of the reuse Of these different materials I was just curious a little bit about One, it's not the easy road There are a lot of decisions that have to be made To figure out the best approaches To cut those materials down Or reorganize them How have you felt That information needs to be Translated or communicated To the installation process itself Or the construction process itself? It's a good question Because this kind of method Changed the process with the architecture Because the architect is not Can't decide all the process And he must follow And he must start work With the workers themselves And not be the one with the idea With the drawing and say Okay, you must do that When you are reusing materials You must be okay to deal With something you don't know And you must be open to what happens Because, for example, the windows We were ready to build with the windows And maybe the windows were stolen So you just have always to re-adapt And to be okay to change your design Just in the impact that Your decision not to come to New York Was a carbon-based decision How this approach that you have Of taking this completely different resource To build buildings and construction with Have you seen that also translate To an education of additional firms Or additional architects of, you know You guys are pioneering, I would assume In finding these different challenges Along the way, is that something That you've noticed any kind of uptick on Or is that something that you're concerned Or interested in? You want to know if it's something That the young architects are understanding? Yeah, I think young architects Are just, you know, it's a huge new supply chain A potential supply chain Yeah, but I think there is no choice Because as you mentioned We must focus a lot on low-carbon solutions Your approach is a natural carbon solution With your Greek And I think that's why I show the material mix And to say, okay, I think reuse Is not the solution For me, organic materials are the solution They must be the main option But we have so many waste And so many garbage And so I think maybe if we take A small percent of this all garbage Maybe we can build some very strange architecture And that's also a point I like what kind of architecture We invent because we use this kind of materials And so maybe it's also a cultural approach And not only an ecological approach And I think it's maybe your attention to biology Is the same thing You say, okay, we must make bricks differently But we also need to focus on biology Because it's a cultural different way Of looking at the world And not only physics and resources But just the living stuff I don't know if you get my point I do, I do, yeah I'm not sure if you heard David's question Right before your presentation But I thought it was a very intriguing question Because there's this notion that you work to Have something that's a today solution Or a drop-in replacement And meanwhile also thinking about what's next The pushing of wherever these new technologies Or different technologies can go I was mentioning that Portland cement At least to my understanding was not necessarily meant To replace something by one to one It was intended to make something better It was cost prohibitive and expensive And kind of ridiculous to constantly cut stone Out of the earth So this idea of having a liquid stone Changed, it changed a lot I mean it changed in terms of how we were able To build buildings much taller Reinforce concrete, you know, et cetera So I thought that question was quite key Just because I feel like it is the question Of where we are today, a lot of us You know, here's what we can do today But really this is what needs to happen And these are the steps that need to happen In between that By the way, I loved your cocktail drawing Of the different material choices I also think that the way that your work And the way that you communicate your work Are incredibly engaging to a point where It becomes a metric in terms of how decisions are made But also it's super easy to understand And I will be thinking about that The material cocktail drawing for quite a while Yeah, it was for us It was very important to find the right way To speak to people And it was very impressive That when we start to work with reusing materials Maybe, of course, the politicians understand this fact But also the workers understand it very, very well Because it's like just a reason It's like very simple to understand That it's a nonsense to throw away materials And also in the history We always hand-built the building To build the new ones So we just need to come back to this simple aspect of architecture Maybe I'm also very inspired by Rural Studio With the work from Samuel Bobby I don't know if you know this guy in US Who developed a lot of work with reusing materials And maybe for us it's a very inspiring work I don't know, what is your kind of inspiration To develop your idea to grow a brick? So I think it comes from two different places for me personally One is reading different books But also one of my favorite stories is about Bill McDonough When he was teaching a graduate studio And he walked into the classroom And he brought in a pizza And the students, you know, and he ate this pizza And they're waiting for the syllabus to come around And finally at the end of the class they said Okay, well are you going to give us a syllabus? And he said, this is your syllabus You need to find out where everything in this pizza And on this pizza came from What a way to start to really think about it And break apart just how materials are made And all the things that you learn about How many trips of tomato had gone All the coatings and the cans I mean it was quite incredible So that was one of the inspirations Is a different way of challenging material Trying to understand it to the molecule But also the supply chain side And then the second is I am highly fascinated with shells and coral And took that approach very early to You know, this childhood wonderment of How did this happen? How does this work? I feel like after some time researching that That was definitely an approach too And how do architects work with your materials? Because you show some very... The picture was detailed And some small... Do you have any architects who say Okay I love your brick And I will build a special project for it? Yeah, so right now We are doing different demonstrations We've done some demonstrations in the past And sales just to get architects And builders familiar with the materials So that we can gain the feedback Just as the voice of the customer or user Is important but this year We have quite a bit of demonstrations That are happening To get the product out into the world But also getting some of that feedback Some of the feedback that we have received Thus far is that it is very easy to use That it didn't change Just in terms of how you installed it We invited different masons to come And work with the material And didn't tell them it was grown But just wanted to see their impression You can construct things faster with it Some of the performance characteristics Enable that But we also felt important To not just rely on the chemistry Or biology of the material To set it apart But try to find other ways Of making it easy as possible to use So the shapes are important All of those things And we're continuing to get more feedback And iterate from that too In my mind What both of you are doing Is a kind of new definition Of sustainable architecture It's not the old version But I wonder if we still have to deal A little bit with the old version In other words, do you feel in your work That you have to deal with a kind of backlash Or a suspicion against green architecture? Is it on your radar that there's like A reaction against do-gooder, hippie, greenwashing? These kind of terms That might make people resistant To some of your approaches So that's kind of part one But part two may be more critical for me Because maybe we can overcome that really easily Is that clearly for both of you Carbon is critical And I've been thinking about that A huge amount recently as well But how do you deal with the wide range Of priorities from carbon footprint To labor, which you each both Also mentioned a little bit To aesthetics and obviously many other things But let's just think of maybe those three And do you think like Should we design solutions that have them all Or do we really need to prioritize Are there some tough choices ahead Do we have to draw the line somewhere For example, Julian, you're drawing the line at travel At least in this case And do we have to Have some trade-offs Do we have to start being comfortable with saying Like actually we can't have Exactly the kind of carbon footprint we want At the same time we're having Exactly the same kind of labor conditions we want At the same time we're having the exact kind of aesthetics Are we gonna have to make some hard choices And be honest about Not just being able to solve it all With hard work or creativity or technology And do you engage that Are you starting to draw the line yourself I imagine as soon as you draw the line You're subject to a huge amount of criticism Or objections Yeah, of course Of course it's very hard to draw the line Exactly Because I said it was the first time I did this kind of decision To say, okay, I want to come I want to come to share with you But it's not right And so in architecture It's a kind of the same And maybe for your To respond to your question Maybe I think we want an architecture Which is I think the aesthetic problem Is of this kind of architecture With reused materials It's not a real problem Because the pavilion I show with the doors Is very demonstrative Is very iconic Is very aggressive With something very strong But we also design projects Where you can see this is old materials And so I think it's the architect Must define his own architecture With dealing with this kind of materials And you can build With reused materials Without saying it Because sometimes nobody can see it So this is to the aesthetic point Now maybe for the job And for the different priority I think of course Carbon is the main issue Because it will have So many disasters But what it's interesting in reusing When you want to reuse You have to engage a lot of work Because it's very easy to throw away But when you want to deconstruct It takes a lot of time And when you want to restore To repair and then to rebuild with It takes a lot of time So I think this method Needs a lot of workers And so it's a kind of Of course ecological solution But also a social solution It works on the two aspects And also I think it produced A kind of architecture Which is more human in a sense Because it's more You don't know exactly the result When you start It's maybe like when you cook When you make a recipe Sometimes you don't want to follow The recipe exactly And you want to improvise Yeah, I love that And it was clear that the workforce The labor, the human conditions Of the labor itself And the humanistic output Was evident in your work And I can't help thinking But we probably don't have time To go into it now About the kind of yellow vest protest Yeah, of course You being there in Paris But also Ginger You employ people in your company I mean I guess many architecture firms Also employ people But you know you're thinking about Employing more laborers The typical definition of laborers I mean how do you balance those things? Yeah, so you know Because of the multidisciplinary nature Of this it takes a lot of Brains and points of departure To make a lot of these decisions That we make So we have to have that multidisciplinary approach I think the questions that you asked There's something really interesting about The question that sustainable architecture Any kind of backlash That you might get from that I think something that I've heard a lot Even from the beginning Is how conservative of an industry Construction is How slow it is And I think that there is this Continuation of that thought That happens, continues And I think the quote If you believe you can't, you're right I think that's something that If we continue to perpetuate that Then obviously we'll continue To be slow within it The other thing that you asked about The wide range of carbon Are ways that you can focus And prioritize I feel like that's a daily battle Probably it's a daily battle For all of us, but For us it's commercialization Versus R&D You want them to butt heads They have to both have Equal voices and clarity And I think the other thing About priorities are trying to do Everything, trying to have Something that solves all these problems You're going to end up with nothing If that happens So I have to go to simple quotes But Henry Ford you can Have any color you want as long as it's black I think that is another Very important thing for us Because we're architects And we, I mean You should see our galleries And the galleries we don't show Other people, but there's A lot of experimentation You're trying to learn about a material And it's different colors and options But for you to go out And make impacts or put the line in the sand About here's how much carbon we As a company do to save this year You have to limit the options You have to educate Your Customers About gray It's beautiful, here's dark gray Or light gray, which I think It makes sense, I mean it's something That is an important focus I think that it's too easy For things to move around For, you know, one idea To fold on top of another So drawing that line in the sand At least for us has happened In the material color option Well, thank you very much Julianne and Ginger for These presentations Since we're trying to also See what's the What's the implications Of all these discussions And probably climate change And being part of this Is kind of shaking all the categories In which our Knowledge is based So there's a need to rethink Many things and to change the way So I would like to do four questions That are very much focused on Kind of traditional lines of Criticality in architecture The first has to do with aesthetics And it goes Ginger To this last comment that you did On how to educate Clients on Footprint or things like this And it's about how do you Evaluate carbon Emissions throughout the process Because this is something that is The main argument in both presentations But it's not easy Actually to know the embodied Energy, for instance, we have David Benjamin Who has extensively written on that It's very complex Or to know how much energy Is required to paint A chair To collect it To place it again To move it afterwards to another place It's something that includes Some sort of complexity And that's a question about aesthetics How do we sense this? How do we use languages And sensing tools To deal with this Collectively The second has to do with Criticality in our cultures Which is capital or markets And the notion of growth Like your practices are I understand are commercial Practices as well as many other things So I think that it would be Very important to know in what way What you're addressing is also Challenging the economy So the way that you become part of You see yourself Characterizing economies And your practice in regards to them The third one has to do with Regulations and there's A huge discussion on policies And your practices are also Challenging many Kind of legal And normative frames For instance, I'd love to know What is the Liability of constructing With all doors Or for instance, what is the way that you deal Ginger with The risk of Investigating or kind of Doing research and And the last one has to do with The paradigm in which We are Departuring from the culture of resources And we're acknowledging that there's a need Of environmental engagement And that is a question about otherness And a post anthropocentric Approach to the definition Of otherness And something like very basic That is probably a question that comes to you Do we have the right To ask bacteria To work for us And that's something, for instance, in the exhibition Of cooking section that was opened That is a question that is open Whether there's a right among humans To ask trees Or to mobilize trees To get rid of our carbon So these four questions One about aesthetics The other about market The third one about regulatory frames And then about Kind of otherness In a post anthropocentric Perspective Maybe could also help Seeing how different your practices are And what is that that they're pointing to So that, you know, that's definitely How for us the whole Question started For us it was, why do we have the right To go heat, beat, and treat To get our materials? Is there not a better way to do this? And I think Just in where we are today In terms of making decisions We've had to go through A little bit of markets As well of looking at When would we run out Of the nutrient That we use Or the calcium source that we use Or the aggregates That we use These are questions that are quite important Because you need to have the understanding Of at what scale like how much CO2 can you actually Avert with this So we've set targets for ourselves We did a 50 year forecast Of, you know, we have different iterations And versions of the process And each version is a better Version of the initial version And starts to utilize different Supply chains within that Because really you have to be able To measure that impact And it's a lot There's a lot of challenges and changes And to do a 50 year forecast Is very challenging in and of itself But I'm going to Laughingly answer One question about The rights of using Biology or bacteria I think that From our From our perspective On this is that We are using them as an energy source We feed them well Which sounds funny but They have a good life They're really good And they make a big difference But I do think that there is You know, it's a good question Because you can start to look at When do you start to exploit Biology the same way that we've exploited Our natural fossil fuels I don't feel that our minds are there That it is a one to one relationship On that But rather, you know Being mindful of use Being mindful of how much of Something actually needs to be present So for us that's We have a life cycle analysis As part of our four pillars as a company So we have to answer Those in Those ways Yeah, so I will Julian, I will Stop talking so that you can Say something Maybe on regulation Maybe it's a main Main problem For us to deal with With the idea Of the risk using This kind of materials And in fact what we Discover is that we have Just to Have everybody Around the table Just to To look at What is not A problem in fact We just have to To look at The difference The different insurance Of each part of the process The clients one Our insurance Worker insurance In fact it's only a problem Of what is the risk And if you look at There is It's never a Risk but Who want to look at If there is a risk Because when you do architecture Nobody cares about the risk And nobody finally Look at the risk And when you are Reusing materials You must Look at the risk because Because always Someone is Saying to you that You can't do You can't be like this And when you look at the real risk There is no one So in fact we solve the problem By discussion Maybe the Question about Market Or economy I think We Want to To Show that Degrowth Could be An issue And it's not And it won't be An horrible World if we are in degrowth And we want to Say okay Or maybe Maybe we are Already in degrowth And we just Need to accept this fact And then to say okay We will have to deal with Less material Less energy Less and less And so if we have less We can have more Of human relations We need to What will be more Of what Because we will have less Of many things I don't know if it's clear But this is What we are looking for I wanted to thank Ginger and Julian Thank you so much for being here with us And starting off our conversation in this way And now Ziad Will make a comment And then move into the next panel Hi, thank you David and Andres and David for the organizational Effort and for inviting me to participate What struck me and this is really not a critique And maybe more of an observation Is that when we were looking at the history Of cement and concrete I couldn't help but notice that for instance The Ottoman cement was not Or concrete was not part of that Historical conversation And my question is really about I don't have a question, sorry My observation is really about how much history To still uncover before kind of Keep also moving forward Cement, Portland cement In Lebanon for instance at the beginning Of the 20th century has radically Transformed the construction industry From masonry into concrete There's a difference between Ottoman I'm not an expert either but the Islamic architecture practices Used smaller stone bigger thicker Grounds So there are many differences and I'm wondering If we also need to somehow Introduce our historical knowledge As we kind of learn to move into the future But anyway, so my name is I am happy to introduce our Second panel today Titled timber building And I'm going to be introducing Both speakers, our first Speaker for the second panel is The architectural office ultra modern Ultra modern is an award winning Architecture and design firm Located in Providence, Rhode Island The office is committed to creating That are at once modern, playful and generous Ultra modern has Experience working at a wide variety of scales From single family residences To urban scale planning Their clients include the Van Allen Institute National Park Service Chicago Parks District among many other Governmental and cultural institutions The work of the office has been Published both nationally and Internationally and has won several awards Including the architecturally Prize and architect magazine The office has also won the Chicago lakefront chaos competition In 2015 and the central falls affordable Housing competition in 2017 Ultra modern was recently Recognized as the next progressives By architect magazine The office is led by co-principal Aaron Forrest and Yasmin Wubus Yasmin received her bachelor's degree From the University of California Berkeley and her master's degree From Princeton University where She was awarded the Butler Traveling Fellowship And the Susan Underwood Prize Yasmin has also Worked in the offices of Guy Nodeson Associates and Stephen Hall Architect She has taught at Princeton University Around the Island School of Design And she currently teaches at the Cooper Union Yasmin also received The Rome Prize in architecture 2016-2017 Aaron Forrest receives Both his bachelor's degree And master's of architecture From Princeton University He's an assistant professor of architecture At the Rhode Island School of Design And prior to RISD, Aaron taught Studios at the University of Pennsylvania At Princeton University He has worked with Bernheimer architecture Guy Nodeson's an associate And in Madrid with Habilos Herreros Architectos Both Yasmin and Aaron were designers In residence at MOMA PS1 Derising current chariot and exhibition Our second speaker Via conference From MGA office in Canada Is Natalie Talowayak Natalie is a principal At microgreen architecture And a world-winning architecture and design firm Creating, engaging, sustainable And innovative projects Their goal is to produce meaningful And sustainable change in building through innovation, construction, Sciences, and design Based in Vancouver, Canada Their projects ranges from Relations to large scale international development Their design promote The health and wellness of the community And engage with the surrounding environment MGA also promotes the use of Wood and new technology extending The boundaries of timber construction And timber technology The office has completed Some of the largest modern building Timber buildings in the world Including the Wood Innovation Design Center And T3 Minneapolis MGA has received numerous honors From the Governor General's Medals in architecture The highest distinction Given to architectural projects in Canada With an education in both Architecture and engineering, Natalie's approach Is rooted in material logic Combined with an emphasis on Cross-team collaboration, Natalie is driven Towards a solution that marries Structure systems manufacturing and architecture Her career highlights include Work on the award-winning CLT construction Ronald McDonald House in Vancouver And the Mastenberg Multi-Activity Center In Sweden So this would be the end of the introduction But before I hand it over to the presenter I just would like to end with a brief Perhaps observation on the topic At hands At a time when architecture is starting To seriously and perhaps somberly Questions its impact on the environment As introduced by David At the beginning of the session Wood has emerged or maybe re-emerged As one of the most sustainable, renewable Organic building material Mobilized by practices Like our speakers today to challenge Tradition and knowledge of timber Construction techniques, pushing timber Construction norms, its spatial and Structural and tectonic capacities And in turn pushing our understanding Towards architecture and its Relationship to nature Nature as both is Place for Physical resources, in this case Replenicable resources and as a physical Environment as a whole Both our speakers today have contributed To this emerging practice with equal Degree of innovation and radicalism Re-casting architectural typologies With wood at the intimate Scale with large gestures As in the case of ultra-modern Work while also demonstrating Its scalability into the larger Architectural and urban scale As in the case with MGA's work So I'm looking forward to hear further About that and more from our speakers Please help me welcome Yasmin And Arun who will be followed on the screen By Natalie, thank you. Thank you, Ziad And also David Andres for Inviting us, it's great to be here And to be able to be part of this Very urgent and very interesting Conversation. I also have to say That we're very excited to be In conversation with MGA, we've been following Their work since before we Ever saw a piece of CLT In the flesh and so We're just very excited to be able To discuss our Communalities with them. We're going to actually start off by talking about A project that's a little unusual for us And that it's purely a kind of speculative Proposal. It came right at the end of A string of Wood projects, some of them Built and others that remain Unbuilt. There's this moment when we got A call from the editors Of CLOG to participate in an exhibition That they were organizing And they asked us to design What they called an Investment Tower. This is a phenomenon that's very familiar I think especially in New York City This idea that these apartment Buildings get built And are filled with condos that then become A kind of investment vehicle For the ultra-wealthy But are essentially Left empty. So you have these kind of big empty towers That represent a huge expenditure Of resources But are actually Essentially unused. And so knowing The kind of sustainability logic of Mass Timber, which can kind of lead you To this strange and extreme conclusion That building with more Wood leads to actually a smaller Carbon footprint. And so we kind of joked While all these people are just buying These abstract volumes of Space up in the air. So wouldn't it be just as good If they were going to buy a big Cube of wood somewhere up in the sky? And so We Basically proposed exactly that. This giant wood block Of unknown breadth and height In which real estate speculators Could essentially buy shares in it At least some of their Carbon output. So what started out As a kind of innocent fantasy Then became more and more serious First of all we needed to think about egress So we threw in some fire stairs And But since no one was going to live in there We figured the stairs could be used As a kind of public promenade Through the building. And though the primary Experience of the building would be A larger mass of wood We opened up a few gaps in the tower In order to give the public A kind of breather as they climbed up And so all of a sudden the stairs Took on a kind of structural role To keep the gaps open And these gaps Became this kind of space for Views that helped kind of orient The experience. And so reaching the top the visitors Would be rewarded with This kind of new observatory And Though the Design was entirely fictional We began to see the tower now Quite seriously as the embodiment Of an approach to wood architecture That we've been working on for a few years now As not only a kind of new sustainable Material that we're compelled to use To reduce the carbon impact of construction But as a kind of catalyst For new forms of public space And indeed for architectural production In itself. If anyone in the booth is listening We can't see the slides on our Little monitor anymore But I'll keep going. So the title of our talk Is actually taken from An essay by Siegfried Krakar called The Mass Ornament And Krakar was kind of Observing this cultural phenomenon In the late 1920s Where these traveling dance troops Such as the tiller girls pictured here Were expanding their numbers And dancing in these kind of large scale Geometrical configurations Where the kind of coordinated body parts Would dissolve into this kind of sea Of human matter And He was critical of this But at the same time saw it as A kind of symptomatic condition Of That was really a challenge To the art and architecture of the time To come up with new art forms That could address Industrial society And these kind of larger scale publics That were very new in cities at the time And so at the same time Engineers and later architects began Kind of experimenting With what were then New materials, steel and concrete To create larger and larger scales Of architecture to address these new publics And these experiments were studied And published, you know, they kind of drew The interest of the Kind of architectural Intelligency of the time Particularly Sigfried Gideon Who was very interested In the kind of new heroic forms That these materials made possible But also in the kind of lifestyle And the qualities that they could bring To architectural spaces And these are two of his publications From the time. And in this context Something as mundane as Flat plate concrete construction Became the most exciting thing possible It was like a manifesto For the new architecture This is what every Residential Tower in New York has made out of these days So today in terms Of timber architecture We're still kind of emerging from our Tiller girls moment I think We're kind of trying to find What is the, what are the New forms that are made possible by mass timber And a lot of contemporary Mass timber architecture is still Kind of working with the forms Of post and beam construction But these materials are Much larger, they're theoretically Infinite in size Because they're made up of very small pieces Glued together, they're very Strong and so all of a sudden They allow a kind of What architecture that can address the public In the way that it couldn't really Effectively before So with mass timber We're kind of in search of A kind of contemporary Maison domino But we think it's not likely to come In the form of the actual Maison domino, the point is the same Building with mass timber is not Simply a kind of technical problem It's a kind of fundamental question Of aesthetics and form What new architectures does this Material make possible So we've done a few projects With mass timber now MGA has done many more But today we're going to talk about A few of these that really try to Explore this idea of What is a new architecture made out of wood Let's see, so our first foray Into this kind of territory Of mass timber was with an Installation up at the Boston Society Of Architects called Four Corners And to start out the project We were really interested in looking At the history of New England Timber construction and Specifically the way in which Traditional timber barns are built Through what are called Gable bents or bents Which are these kind of two-dimensional Frames that basically get Repeated in a linear fashion This kind of space and architecture Of the barn But we were interested in kind of Thinking about a translation Into new mass timber technologies So thinking about The bent as something that could Be made out of CLT Cross-laminated timber Which means that kind of rethinking That it can no longer be this Two-dimensional plane but that Perhaps it could be made out of A series of complementary corners That then becomes stable through Their kind of interrelationship And so Just to go quickly through this project While the installation kind of Formally references I think The New England barn Structurally and spatially Of course it kind of turns the logic On its head And we're also really interested In the kind of detailing of the project To really have The mass timber be the Kind of not only the structural material But also the finish material So any fasteners Would be kind of minimized There weren't any heavy metal plates That you typically see with This type of mass timber construction So this project was really Our start, our first test And it gave us some ideas Of how might one work with CLT But it kind of also Made us realize some other things That kind of led to this proposal For a lakefront kiosk In Chicago Called Chicago Horizon Where I think we were able to take Some bigger leaps because of that experience So the competition Was essentially for a little kiosk Along the lake shore And starting the project And kind of researching the site And thinking about the project We came across these two Chicago references On the one hand Mies van der Roos experiments And Roof surfaces such as at IIT And then also The Rain Charles Ames film powers of 10 Which asks this really fundamental question About what happens to our understanding Of things as we kind of jump in scale So while The competition kind of called For actually a very small kiosk We felt that working with CLT We could actually produce Something much larger and more generous And something that could kind of give Basically produce a larger public space For the city And so we reframed The problem of the kiosk not as one How do you make the perfect boutique Little kiosk but rather as one is How do you make the largest Thinness kind of wood roof possible And this meant A kind of radical Simplification of things So a very simple open plan That's supported, a big roof That's supported by A kind of radial columns Glulam columns and then two small volumes Below and just to give you guys a sense This was About the square footage that was stipulated In the brief and so we decided We were trying to take a chance and see If we could actually maximize that On a different scale That was interesting to us Also architecturally is That kind of simplicity Of that move also Would lead perhaps to a kind of rich Experience so that below underneath This kind of massive plane of wood You might look out to The kind of flatness of Lake Michigan and then up above That big plane would kind of reframe Your experience of the skyline And also, you know, thinking about The kiosk not as something As a kind of self-contained object But as this kind of thing with a porous boundary That would allow a different set of A number of different publics To be kind of embraced within it And so to really take on A project of this scale We had to kind of keep the Material palette very limited And so we thought we would just Try to work with Just basically two materials A few others got added into the mix One was the CLT Which would form the structure And then chain link on the other Hand that would become The kind of Element that would be used To outline spaces And at some point in the project We thought we should kind of do a comparison Of all the kind of carbon emissions That came from various materials And those that got eaten up by the wood Because it's harvested from trees That grow and sequester carbon in the process And it was a very kind of Interesting and educational experience To go through this spreadsheet That's out there And available from the University of Bath Where you can quantify All of your materials and it tells you How much carbon you're consuming And then to kind of subtract That from this volume of wood And what was very interesting Was that in the Context of this project Even with steel connections And all this chain link fencing And stone quarried from the ground That the total carbon impact Of it Was negative On a kind of Ratio of 8 to 1 And then the idea was That these kind of few Materials could be Employed in a kind of counterpoint To each other in order to create A kind of clarity of space The CLT here is All of the horizontal structure There's no beams above it or anything else So it's really just Pairing things down to the structure In the space And in order To figure this out We worked with a colleague Brett Schneider Who came up with this idea That we would actually use two layers of CLT One on top of the other In a kind of cross hatch pattern That would then get fastened together In order to create a kind of Like you see in the Maison Domino And this was The sound was really simple But it turned out to be super complicated To figure out how to get A one-way material like wood To start to behave like a two-way material And it really came down to Working with multiple concepts Of the structure and How that informed The way these things would be Fastened together So on the left is an idea Of a pure flat plate With these stress concentrations Around the column On the right hand side This idea of these very wide Very shallow flat beams In a kind of cross hatch Or coffered pattern That would then Kind of serve to support the rest of the wood And it turned out that Working through these two different ideas The idea on the right Was actually much more efficient And interestingly None of the form changed through all of this It was only a kind of question Of conceptualizing and calculating The differences We also had to kind of think carefully About how this big monolithic plate Of wood would get assembled We'd been studying Lees Fenderow Looking at the new National Gallery And we thought well maybe they'll Build it on the ground And then lift it up on the columns After much back and forth Safety reasons to be the best way to go So they actually built it just a few feet off the ground And then kind of slowly raised it Over the course of six hours up into the air I guess aside from the wood The second material that you kind of see In the pavilion is the chain link And again it's a kind of industrial cheap material But used as a kind of architectural finish And structural material So here it's stretched Between the kind of plane of the Of the roof and the plane of the ground Thereby kind of avoiding Any kind of secondary framing That you would get at the corners And so the intention is to Really keep that space very Pure, very clean As well as the roof As well looking back The other thing we kind of thought about Is as a public space Was how do you kind of extend the life Of the kiosk into the evening And so we came up with a lighting Installation of LEDs At the two different volumes Of one set of LEDs Of cool white And one set of LEDs of Warm white that would start to have This conversation throughout the course of the evening Into the night that would kind of reward A prolonged attention And you see that Here and here But I would argue that I guess At its heart the project is really about A kind of abstraction about really Clearing the space for a kind of public To take it over Kind of wear construction on its sleeve And We really enjoy Shots like this because the project Starts to resemble some of the kind of Innocent physical models that we made early on And so we Were very interested in that kind of relationship Of how do you construct a project That's You know, that maybe uses A sustainable material but that really Tries to, you know, there are questions Of architecture and questions of What it means to be in this city That are kind of at stake As a result. So I think that's it. Thank you. So I'm Natalie at Michael Green architecture Here in Vancouver And MGA This is actually a photo of our Gattown office Here in Vancouver Photo of our kind of workspace Which is actually a 25 foot long Piece of CLT It's a photo of kind of our team here in Vancouver You can see kind of bringing that CLT paddle from the Alley near our office Through the courtyard And kind of into our office space In an old 100 year old back temper building In Gattown And for six years This is where we have kind of worked As a team focused on Back temper construction And actually from this we actually just moved Our offices about a month ago To another neighborhood And we're working for An even longer kind of table To house our team that's growing Now to about 35 people Of architects and Designers And kind of in addition to the Recent move another kind of Change in development that's really Informed the way we think And the way the approach is Is our relationship now with Katera Katera is A technology company Ultimately but really focused on Reimagining and rethinking what is The construction industry and Basically a Berkeley integrated model From design all the way through fabrication And rethinking how we Can kind of address Needs of How do we create more quality At a more affordable price And ultimately what we're focused on Is how can that be part of This larger movement to impact And sustainability And how we approach Kind of the use of timber material The way that and now that Especially with this relationship with Katera It's kind of really allowed us to Think and focus our efforts In terms of what kind of projects We take on, what kind of work We focus on and that's kind of Looked at about a 50-50 split Of projects and what we're calling Our kind of typology projects So those really focused on fabric Buildings where we live and work And kind of At scale really That's where we have the potential To really influence and really Kind of start to move the market In terms of Climate change reduction One thing that we have in common Between this kind of 50-50 split Of Projects is really again Focusing on using timber It's something that Michael and I Worked together over the past 10 years and Michael Kind of past 20 years Really about that and part of that Is that not only Is this such a great opportunity To sequester carbon but also It's a material that has An individuality It has a unique kind of Each tree is kind of special Different in a way Then it allows us to Connect to that material and value Value not only the tree itself But then the spaces and Quality of the architecture From that And kind of as we look At our body of work we focus on these Three main kind of efforts So material selection certainly We Exclusively work on kind of timber Projects which for a lot of reasons We look into shortly But we also look at how can we Create kind of a simple approach To kind of design That this kind of idea of long Life will fit, something that Will respond to change Will be in a building that can Endure over time that really In a way it takes this question Of kind of the cycle of Of tree, the cycle of how we In an industry look at Really short building timelines But how can we build Buildings that are maintained For hundreds of years and Become a really important part Of our kind of built fabric Looking at again that idea of A kind of connection to material Something when we look at office Space design that we've encountered Quite a bit is the question of Having kind of column spacing Within kind of workplaces that A constant study how can we Create kind of an efficiency Work and kind of are creative And successful and part of that Is that kind of connection to Raw material, kind of understanding Where this has come from and Then therefore kind of connecting Back to that. So we kind of look at Buildings for both the inside and Then the outside, literally how Can we connect those with the Contacts, whether that be An urban context or in this Case in Northern Canada This kind of link to Kind of on the planning. So I think this has been framed really well today And I appreciate both All of the kind of discussion And looking at Again this massive kind of Task that we have As an industry to look at 48% of our CO2 emissions from buildings And it's something that This kind of question of How do we address this In kind of a Timely manner Comes down to Really what is this speed and scale Innovation but also allowing Enough time to be considerate And conscious of what we build And what we build there And for us again it comes back down to Kind of why Math Timber and Just to kind of Describe what we say Math Timber For those who might be kind of asking We're looking at in a lot of cases A kind of panel product so From CLT, you can see on the top left Diagram it's kind of basically our Larger kind of panelized A nice white pile of it Made by two by fours and all the way Through to Nell and Made by Timber, Dell, Lam, Blue Lam, LDL and I think what's Really interesting now is These are the materials we're building with But this kind of Opportunity to focus on Even new ways of creating This kind of natural fiber To create blue less opportunities To create even less Of kind of impact By innovating through product design And then looking at our kind of our Main drivers and these are often Topics that we talk about at the beginning Of a project or with jurisdictions About the kind of The main kind of driving factors Of why we choose to design and Timber and the opportunities That we look at it so this is certainly Kind of on the theme of this Sustainable whole approach And how We can consider both Kind of carbon sequestration but also The kind of embodied carbon relative To how these buildings are built and The processes In which they're kind of designed So when we look at Kind of our understanding of what We're building now, how does that Relate to our Capital cost of embodied carbon of the Building itself versus Operational costs and this is a little Of an outdated graph but Kind of trend to see as the Building ages and the percentage Of building energy consumption that Can be tied to both either operational Or embodied and I think as we Continue to As an industry Really great strides in terms of Operations of the building, MEP systems Passive house, how Little energy these buildings Can consume over time, it puts an Even greater emphasis on What we're building now and what Those physical materials are And it's something that You know, we don't know where This kind of relationship will end up But we know to make change now And as we look at where these two These two lines cross or don't Is kind of these questions and these These decisions that are made Especially for our Fabric buildings with the Growing population So as we look at comparing Our carbon footprint for From concrete all the way Through to kind of wood grain construction Again, kind of just illustrating that Kind of story and Kind of taking Some kind of rocket Facts of one ton of carbon A meter cube of wood And For us, looking at Opportunities like the wood innovation And design center, Chris George So this is an entirely It's a dry system So it's from Design all the way through to completion It was a 14 month process And part of that was focusing on Creating a solution that didn't Rely on concrete to Either achieve structural capacity Which is often Kind of a limitation in consideration When we look at mass timber Building so 50,000 square feet Academic and office Space in Prince George Prince Columbia and really Exploring the opportunity With a simple building diagram So you can see here the ground level The structure space on the ground floor And again Kind of looking at that Construction sequence and how Pre-publication and Simplicity of The details can really accelerate The construction process This is a diagram That shows, illustrates The Construction assembly at the floor level So here you can see that dry assembly Which relies on a build up of Layers above the CLT To create your acoustic barrier And here we're exploring this Opportunity of really staggering the CLT floor plates To integrate our Lighting, our conduit Within that chaseway In an effort to Marry the MEP systems The structure and the architecture That together Would allow that kind of Celebration of that Kind of material in this tourist form You can see through the building section The intent was to Consolidate as much of that Complexity within the building floor And then really allow the perimeter To kind of be simple and Kind of expressive An image then from the interior Interior of the building there And through to the lobby Where we used LVL As our kind of feature stare Material Linking that through to an exterior canopy Also fabricated from LVL And one of the opportunities With this, with kind of wood construction Is we look at really using exterior wood In areas that are highly protected And trying to be kind of respectful And responding to that In this case we also explored Explored using Charred wood cladding As a means of Naturally kind of protecting that Cladding material on the Phase of the building These are also prefabricated Exterior, well and again With that system to look at This kind of kit of parts that could Create kind of a really efficient Construction process And in terms of We did pursue an LCA With Athena on this project And in terms of the amount Of timber and the construction Of this project the timber itself Could be grown by North American Forests in four minutes So kind of looking at that At the kind of global impact To shortly as well And from that That's kind of a local To our province project But we're looking at Exploring These kind of opportunities all over the globe So we have a project With an interesting project that I'll describe In Yalbae, Sweden All the way through To Number of projects in the States And certainly in Minneapolis Or in the Minneapolis project there And working with Sidewalk Labs in Toronto On a kind of Really interesting last timber Opportunity there. And I think as we look at These kind of global projects The question of how much supply do we actually Have and how As an industry Can we look at the cycle of this As a real Intentional use of our This is a diagram that Describes the net change In forest area across the globe And you can see That with kind of Sustainable forest practices There is real opportunity to Kind of grow that and what we've been talking about A lot here is In terms of the position we're in And even targeting two degrees Even if we could get to three degrees Over the next century The importance of not only maintaining the forest In a Kind of material for our structures But moreover how can we look at Really planting so much more To sequester At a kind of global scale Kind of the amount of carbon that we are Being faced with And it's kind of well beyond Kind of one project to project That is an approach looking at How do we build what we build Also how can we approach The kind of forest sector in a way That really does have that strong opportunity To impact the amount of carbon That we can sequester One of the studies in kind of Fields of interest that we also Explored this kind of Cycle of kind of forest of frame And through that Not only kind of each Kind of element in the kind of Human aspect and the kind of connection To where our materials come from But also looking at how How this kind Of enthusiasm and focus Can start to create innovation At every part of this process Every part of the kind of construction process One of the kind of realities That we as an industry are faced With is of course how What is the impact of cost And when we look at mass diversification It's currently It's quite variable I think It's a growing industry and it's Something where we can all see This potential of a more Advanced approach And a lot of that is rooted in Opportunities for pre-provocation But currently given Kind of the growth that really Requires all the different parties That are kind of experienced And involved to work together To build the industry And build the strength of Of that which then will relate To kind of further reduced costs And part of that cost kind of saving How we can save time on construction Sites. So looking at 15, 20 percent it depends On kind of the strategy of pre-provocation But Really kind of maximizing that Both in terms of carbon reduction But also in terms of Certainly kind of the use of those Buildings opportunities How we can address needs For housing needs for Kind of development at scale In a responsible way So 18 story Power here in Vancouver At University of British Columbia Looking at an 18 story Structure that's erected in 66 days So again really maximizing That the Simplicity and amount of crane picks The choice of What scale of the various Elements that are included into the Structure to really be part of That holistic solution And even looking at kind of construction Sites at every scale Of kind of experience from the finish Buildings through design The experience that it is to Either work or work near A construction site And when we look at the Scale development it's actually The percentage of time that work is under Construction is quite significant And when you look at a timber construction Site you know it's clean, it's dry It's relatively Quiet and in a lot of ways Kind of quite beautiful And the largest kind of bucket of interest here Is how we How does this impact the way that we Live and work in our spaces What impact does that Have On our quality of life So we look at facts like 90% 90% of our time As humans as an average Is spent indoors And that can have a profound On our well-being and So many studies kind of showing This kind of connection to nature And connection to that environment Of how it can impact Reduce stress levels And improve healing times But also kind of tests showing Experience or living In our healing spaces like this Actually will kind of speed up recovery Times and kind of that connection To nature in different ways And one of the projects where we This potential is at the Ronald Dahl House here in Vancouver So this is Women's and Children's Hospital, it's a house For 70 families And the intent is to basically link This building to the province Of British Columbia both in design And also in Kind of the way that the Kind of the materials and the kind of Graphic Wayfinding works So the series of four buildings Linked together by a central And courtyard And you can see here This is a photo of the Common living room With two kind of flanking Quarters there with the slide Beyond But really focusing the energy And the quality of those spaces At both connections to the Exteriors physically And also connections through to the Forest of BC through that link To the kind of CLT panels here CLT by structural M in this case And also using Larger LVL tables Throughout the space and And not only impacting Kind of the quality Space for people to come together And also helping with Acoustics in those spaces as well Here you can see Connection through to the Kind of sunken garden Kind of a one edge out of the Exterior kind of comes through And really links the Various common spaces together The type of construction Of this building is a blue frame CLT projects of the Model and varying walls are CLT and The infills TJI Joyce so we're looking for the Right material in the right place And in this case Part of the material Selection also was related to A strategy of how we can Build a building that will be easy to Even kind of cost effective To maintain for the cherry But also something that Will provide a very solid and Very kind of resilient backup For the planning system Here you can see through construction The construction process actually Spent up quite a bit through as we After the first kind of house Was built and the construction team Kind of became more familiar with It ended up being quite Kind of time efficient You can see here the connection Through to that wood on the Interior so in this case we used An exterior brick cladding Again looking at this really long Kind of lifespan building And also something that could Almost be like a kind of a Solid shell that would protect And kind of preserve That would kind of Edge an interior Through the back there's a kind of A play area that links through all The common areas and the Court areas there Waking up to the CLT dorm On the adjacent Public spaces Into the dining room And the common living room And when we try to approach projects From the small scale to the large These are actually playhouses that Also double as a Kind of donor recognition walls that The houses can be moved around They can be adjacent to each of the Houses or come together to create One kind of continuous playhouse And these are actually built by Local school where the Students learn about wood construction And kind of created These houses As part of the other class work And kind of coming back To this kind of story of Forest to frame and this kind of connection From a seed And how natural processes And the material logic within that Create that tree and create that life And again this kind of opportunity From within that When you take that element and then Create it kind of a fixed building Building a piece that still maintains That connection to where it came from And as a kind of holistic Solution looking at The kind of community of people Both directly and indirectly That are affected by that kind of Process in the industry And a project where that is It's kind of A bit of continuous discussion is that Oregon State Forestry School This is a location focused on Different areas of forest Resource management, ecosystems and Society and wood science Engineering so really Kind of a microcosm of the Conversation of forest and forest management All within one One kind of project and this This project is currently under construction This is actually an image of The main atrium space that was Really seen as the heart of the Project and the heart of This opportunity for discussion And collaboration and really Bringing industry, academia and The communities together to Kind of discuss and Really Push forward with the industry One of the main themes of this project Is transparency so transparency Both to Kind of within the school to Research what's going on but also Transparency literally to Kind of the connection to the Adjacent landscape. The project Is comprised of An 80,000 square foot Academic buildings of the Shots that I was just showing you And then also a larger A taller testing facility So this is actually a 35 foot Wide reaction wall And that Access Laboratory for kind of testing And innovation at the school Both these projects are being Completed next year and again Coming back to where we live Where we work why this matters This is T3 Minneapolis so this Is the opportunity of this project Is taking cues from What is so attractive And kind of appealing To old loft spaces Old warehouse spaces How can they, how can they Kind of so in demand and also create A really rich opportunity for Kind of these places where we live And a lot of that is In this project focus on simplicity Wrong materials And materials that will Get better over time so in this Case it's actually Quarantine still plotting And then nail laminated timber As the kind of the mean floor Spanning material And it's amazing How much Of a difference it can make in terms Of the success of a Thinking space and A place That really impacts the quality Of kind of our businesses Where you can see an axle Just kind of how the envelope there Kind of connects back to the building Building of the exterior Certainly focused on this kind of Idea of simplicity and kind of Timelessness and an effort To be resilient over time We really enjoyed Looking at the work and the kind of Variety of context that you guys Have worked in. I'm very interested In like you guys have done all this Research on the Kind of delivery method Of wood and all the advantages That that proposes And very curious about A kind of evolution since You guys have been involved in Wood architecture for a long time If you can kind of speak to The way The way the industry is changing From Your earliest projects to today And how you're seeing a change there And I think particularly The kind of integration of microgreen Architecture with Katerra Like why is Katerra interested in wood And what do they see that bringing To the table because that's I think A kind of explosion in orders Of magnitude in terms of That kind of delivery method And the focus thing Yes, definitely Yeah, I mean it's been interesting The kind of speed and scale Of change that we've seen from The case for tallwood 10 years Until now and I think one of In a lot of ways The industry is working now Is rooted In a lot of the smaller players There's a lot of these kind of Specialists But they're very siloed So this goes from Even just in terms of separate directors Separate material fabricators Separate kind of how the Shop drawing process works And even within the past kind of Two or three years we've seen That's don't need to change as well Certainly that's in this relationship With Katerra And I think What we're seeing is so many Kind of folks especially from the outside A little bit so Katerra coming from a technology background And looking at our construction industry And just seeing this kind of world of opportunity For how we can do this More effectively and efficiently And Part of kind of what we're trying to work through Is How does design play into that The opportunity for Collaboration Is so Present And We're super excited for that process But the mechanism In terms of how we As a kind of a collective Kind of get there I think we're in that process But certainly kind of looking at the industry itself It's still Comprised of many Small players Which is completely Interesting and then I think there's a lot of merit To that kind of Focus from individuals But it's right now how We all work together In an effort to kind of achieve a lot of these Same goals So certainly we're seeing things a lot more Opportunities for prefabrication The scale of what we can Prefab is changing But I think it's all kind of that work That we collaborate together Right now I'm kind of curious because I think I mean wood has been part of architecture For such a long time and I think it's used in You know in a real range of scales Anything from finishes to now to the structure And I feel like There's this broad range from Projects that are striving To be kind of completely, purely wood To projects that kind of Are hybrids with other building systems And I'm kind of curious about Where you guys think you're headed Or if there is this intention Because I think there are projects you know Where they try to remove all the fasteners Or they try to remove all the steel And other components And so I'm curious to see where you guys Think you might be headed In that kind of spectrum In terms of composite materials And yeah It's something You know we've discussed a lot And Looking at materials for what they do best So Composite materials is something that we are Interested in pursuing In terms of you know what it makes sense To have post tension steel for example The Oregon State project Actually has a self-centering Rocking shear wall system So it's basically comprised of CLT With post tension cables That run the length of those walls And the marriage together Of those two materials creates a system That can be occupied post disaster It's something that's the self-centering system And For a lot of reasons and that's compelling So I think that's just one example But there's other Again when we look at the opportunity For span and scale and when it Makes sense to introduce another material You know we're interested In pursuing that part of the kind of Balance and what we're kind of looking at Reviewing though is how does that affect How this building could be deconstructed And how does that affect You know certainly the kind of Carbon story but But really as soon as those materials Become Considered as a product or an element Is what is that value And how are you impacting kind of The longer LCA of the entire Kind of project so But overall as a Approach we're certainly Interested in looking at it I'm really interested in the question of Wood hype I think wood is just It's you hear what I said Wood hype like the hyping of wood Like We as architects I think have been Kind of sucked into this Industry machine You know basically the Softwood lumber industry Who have built up this entire Marketing campaign around wood And I think it obviously We thrive On that to a certain extent we're very Interested in In the kind of Capacity of wood for generosity But I think there is a large amount Of hype There's no other way to say it I'm curious I'm very interested in the kind of Life cycle diagrams that you showed That showed architecture as a kind Of output of forestry management As a way of sequestering Carbon First of all Do you think that's realistic And Where does it have its limits I think it kind of comes back To For us anyway the scale Of the issue at hand And so kind of those That discussion of forest management globally And I'm hopeful and we're hopeful That it is possible When you look at the lifespan Of the building compared to the lifespan Of a tree and the lifespan of different Fibers that are being pursued With less than a 70 year kind of life cycle But even when you map out If you had a target of 100 year Building and there's a kind of a process For deconstructing or kind of reformiting That building over time The map still adds up when you look At a kind of a 70 year cycle Even for traditional forest management And What we were really talking about Is It's such a massive kind of undertaking But there is the height of how can we Best take advantage of that To plant even more trees and plant even more Like kind of reverse this In a much more kind of global scale And think past The building scale Think past that kind of cycle But given just the kind of The bare bones of the map add up We're really hopeful that this can be That it can be effective and that is true Okay great Hi Natalie this is a nice meeting you We're about to open the floor for questions But before that if you just think starting About your questions I'm just going to ask Both of you make a quick observation Ask maybe one question that perhaps Could be shared by both First I want to thank you for the really beautiful work That you presented kind of inspiring process What I really appreciated was also kind of the rigor And the making and the thinking process Always self checking Where you are in terms of The movement of material The foot print and so on and so forth And then adjusting your process Accordingly so I think the self checking Is really becoming important part of our practice Perhaps and that can really Across in your work But so my question would be Referring a little bit to The language that you used which is On one hand you guys Talked about kind of the repression Of the details and really celebrating The architecture and the tectonic quality Of the wood as a material And in your case Natalie I think you Kept on also bringing up the simplicity Of the details and the simplicity Of the details and the building The aesthetics overall in terms of The way it looks spacious And flexible and so on and so forth So I guess the Meese kind of was the Elephant in the room but in your case It was really actually Collaborator in one sense kind of you Were doing your project vis-à-vis Thinking and halfway throughout the Presentation I Maybe I realize that maybe what you guys Are up to is really correcting That kind of museum universal Legacy that instead of using steel Or celebrating that industrial 20th century material You kind of now mobilizing the material That is much more environmentally Conscious and you kind of Adjusting it along the way Nonetheless I think the museum aesthetics Were a part of your repertoire You would talk more about that In the sense that at what point CLT becomes a material That doesn't resolve that say The previous architectural repertoire That becomes its own And then move into its own architecture Let's say language Yeah I don't know that I have a good Answer for that I think that One of the reasons that That meese or Corb is interesting to look at In terms of what is because they weren't I think both Neither of those figures was actually Particularly Interested in the authenticity Of concrete or the authenticity Of steel and how those should be How they wanted to be Expressed to use Cons phrasing I think so I think In some respects I think finding the proper The proper expression for CLT Or for mass timber may Not be the right question I think for us it's a question Of there must be something different And how do we kind of How do we poke at the conventions Of timber construction in order to Find new ways and new forms Yeah I don't know that I Have a whole lot to say Beyond that on those terms because I think it's a very interesting question I think part of it I mean it's certainly something We talk about a lot as well and I think The innovations in terms Of what these materials are and how they're Made up I think when you look at what That's a unit directional material that's a All the fires are aligned and as we look at Something like a panel product you know That's where we kind of create in a sense Something that's similar to how concrete functions You know in a two-way system But I think that as we look at What the small piece is at the scale Of material through to what is that Product there's just so much Difference between one to the other In terms of the actual piece And how that can be informed By that linearity Or that kind of unit directional material You know I It's just I feel like there's going to be As the industry and as the kind Of material logic evolves and We kind of just get into this in more detail I do think it's going to start to allow That I can't say how but I feel like Given the kind of the what's at the root Of it the potential is just so interesting So I have Two questions one is If Any of you know how much carbon is released When one tree is harvested And the second is that I've noticed that in a lot of the Project it's these kind of Slab typologies almost And what's the potential to poke Through them and have Kind of different variations And the floor slabs Kind of light wells et cetera Some views kind of vertically With the CLT construction I feel like that Question about the emissions Of a tree being cut down We don't have numbers for that So I was wondering if you did I don't actually have that I'm interested but I don't know There's definitely emissions involved In the harvesting of trees And transportation Fabrication and everything It's an industrial process Like everything else I think in terms of the opportunities For variation And form are I think they're there I think Natalie showed a lot of Examples We showed maybe less so But I think it's quite Flexible material design-wise And I think that's part of the opportunity The CLT especially Has been used mostly in housing And hotels In a kind of cellular typology And I think as Wood gets used In more building types You'll start to see much more Design Innovation for lack of a better word In terms of how to think Of more ecosystemic relationships Between the built environment And the actual forests as a resource And especially where I don't know How many people in this room have been to a timber plantation But it's quite scary In terms of monoculture These trees are planted every 50 centimeters to one meter They destroy the soil They totally exhaust it They displace indigenous populations From eastern Africa to New Zealand To Canada to every place in the world So I was wondering whether we could Think of the industry Or maybe your experience if you've seen The industry to move beyond Using trees as a resource Maybe think of these composite materials In the future as something That does not exhaust landscapes Or the livelihood of many people Even if they are arguably Sustainable source Sustainably sourced Which has been a lot of critique Towards these labels that say That is sustainably sourced When in fact maybe not so So yeah, whether the industry Into sourcing Timber from Not from trees and maybe reusing Other types of composites I think those are excellent questions I have In my past life I was a tree planter for many years And I think There's two questions there One, with what we're doing Is it effective? Is the policy And the measure of what is sustainable Is that effective? But I think the reality of Or the potential To continue to Look at how we sustainably manage Forest is real. There are ways That are far more respectful And resilient to manage a forest That does maintain the integrity Of the environment Of the It's a kind of through selective Harvesting through when that's Replanted and the measure in terms Of the policy is something that needs To be addressed and interrogated And questioned What makes sense But the opportunity is there for trees To be that source of fiber If we do it responsibly I think certainly though in parallel The opportunity for other fibers And other, we're quite comfortable With agriculture and food production As a kind of cycle And those are just a different Type of fiber But in terms of replacing The lowest carbon material Source to look at these penalized products I think absolutely we need to Kind of get to the bottom of that And continue to ask those questions But I think there is opportunity In both. I'm not a student I'm a city council in Cambridge, Massachusetts And I came here for this conference Because I'm intrigued at how we can Change the building code And the zoning laws and so forth To incorporate the new materials About and build the density That I think we really need to have Climate change resilient cities I think that's a huge issue I think the discussion today is on Climate change at the building Scale but I think there's no question That there's a huge impact Possibly larger impact to be had In the organization of Cities and there's a lot of People doing important work On that. I think One of the challenges for Mass timber construction has been The slow adoption of updated Codes across municipalities And When we did the Chicago project They are on a building code from 1982 So So there's They have no conception of what Mass timber is Fortunately we're doing a one-story building With no enclosures so it's not such a big deal But as you get into the larger scale That becomes a major challenge Because as a member of Municipal government looking at What the local laws are and what they Allow and what they promote is Important to do on a regular basis Natalie anything to add to that? I think the Approval of the stories with the ICC has been a Massive kind of staff In that direction I think To earn a point of the kind of Speed and I think consistency Of how the Newer Code approaches are being adopted Is something that we have certainly Come up to across North America It's very Currently quite Specific to the jurisdiction in terms of How the science And the kind of fire And the material logic Is implemented So I think again We're making a lot of good progress In terms of how The traditions are Again the speed of which those are adopted And consistency Amongst how they're interpreted Across North America Thank you so much Erin Yasmin and Natalie Thank you boss Now we have The last panel Which is Bringing here another perspective By the tradition of Friends and European Political Ecological discourse Traditions of territorial discussions The discussion and evolution of environmentalism In Philosophy but also in In the U.S. In policymaking So it's very much a way Of understanding architectural practices As something that is connected to International tensions And with the way Different scales get articulated As part Of the making of civil society The first The first speaker The first speaker is going to be Joan Palmesino Founder of the territorial agency The territorial agency defines Territories as the Complex set of relationships to things That keep us alive We're intersecting borders Established semi-stable relations In between politeness And their material base of operations Joan Palmesino Is an architect and urbanist Together with Anne-Sophie Ronstock He founded the territorial agency In 2007 An independent organization That combines architecture analysis Advocacy and action for Integrated spatial transformation Of contemporary territories And the museum of oil That has become Kind of an icon of a different way Of thinking architecture And its relationship with politics And environmental issues Also a different way of practicing In which an architectural agency Is associated with an advocacy group Like Greenpeace And it's also understanding Architectural typologies As a political force To also close It's also The author of Anthropocene Observatory The Museum of Infrastructures Unconscious North Unishable Marker-Mir and Kiruna He's been Together with Anne-Sophie Have been teaching extensively Both in Goldsmith and in AA Where they had a huge impact And a huge influence in the way And also introducing research As a design practice And as a way to connect Architecture with politics Their work has been exhibited Everywhere From the beginning with works Like mutations The unstable states of Europe To recent works That are starting to be Known And that John and Anne-Sophie Are working on Not only the way we understand The connection of architecture With environmental issues and politics But also having a great influence In institutions that Are difficult to be reached by architects Recently John Parmesino presented A proposal to the United Nations And he's following up on a big project In which they're working to redefine The way oceans are Sends the connection Of the way Humans are And can be conceptualized Following John Parmesino's presentation Will have Cooking sections Who are becoming very well known here And they have They just opened an exhibition At the Arthur Rose Gallery Cooking sections Is a duo of spatial practitioners Based in London It was born to explore The systems And the world through food Using installation, performance, mapping And video, their research-based practice Explores the overlapping boundaries Between visual arts, architecture And geopolitics since 2015 They're working on multiple iterations Of the long-term Scientific climate war Project exploring How to eat As climate changes Their work is again Is being exhibited everywhere Recent projects were presented At Manifesta XII in Palermo Also in La Fagliette Anticipations They're presenting their work Also in the Venice Biennial They were part of the 14th Venice Biennial American Pavilion They just released a book By Columbia Books as well On the Empire Shop A project that they've been developing In London and in different locations In which they're looking at food And the way it connects The way to rethinking the history Of colonialism And to situate the discussion Of post-colonialism And decolonizing practices As a material one And one that is environmental Following that we will have A 20-minute conversation Self-driven By the two speakers Andres, you're always too kind Colleagues and friends And members of the audience Something that I usually don't do And that is to start with A list of stuff that we do This is How I started thinking When Andres asked us Choose one project And go in detail about it And I really couldn't think Which one is not linked to climate change And this is just a recent list And today I'm going to focus On a little fracture A little, little part Of the Museum of Oil project That is somehow The moment that somehow Is for us A transformative project Because it has allowed us to think Of negotiations As the Specific form Of architectural Practice for us Since we started Territorial agencies The issue is very simple This is the industrial revolution The global energy assessment Which is An institution based in Vienna As calculated The human Energy used Or Transformation of energy And since 1850 Until this The first energy assessment But not as much as change We went from 160 Exagiles To 600 This is the industrial revolution And this is the inception of the Anthropocene There's not one single species In the history of the planet That has done such an energy transition And there's not one single species That has managed to Articulate This relationship between energy And body mass At such a magnitude The top Line Is The thickness of the line Is the renewable energy that we're using In the world. The rest Is fossil fuels There's a little bit of Biomass still Going on almost untouched Since pre-industrial Conditions And that is maybe Another project that we have to do But the rest is Fossil fuels If we look at the Slides that we always show as a first step With our students If we look at the same Great acceleration but in Percentage turn We start seeing what you might think Is the tragedy of the comments We tend to use one Big energy source at a time We move from wood to coal To oil and maybe to renewables And each one of these transitions Is Of course, a completely different organization A political organization Or to say it clearly Political organization means Transformation of the city It's a transformation of the city Which is an architectural practice Each one of these energy shifts Has been a major architectural practice You go from small cities Surrounded by forests To large organizations of industrial cities To the international Temporary conditions of oil Which we might call the globalization city And renewables is this Highly unstable Anxiety of trying to Get out of it What happens after the cold war Is the warm war We move from the Idea that War simply vanishes And we are now in deep war With ourselves Today I'm going to show you The Museum of Oil Which is a project that we started with Greenpeace And it's a very simple project And it connects the sky What we Talk about The atmosphere with What is underground We connect somehow The Muck of oil The Dirtiness of oil With the beautiful clouds Blue sunshine Skies that characterize Our life on the planet The question is really what happens in between And in between Something like this happens So you start seeing large organizations Like Greenpeace Or other NGOs, individuals Or major cities Or even states The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Starting really to deal With this major transformation That links what is underground With what is in the sky And how we do it is nothing else Than sensing What we are trying to articulate In this little 20 minutes presentation Is how we Start seeing a very strange Architectural phenomenon That is measuring the way Of surveying and acting On the big transformations Nothing else than an attempt To understand those situations In a way through which we Try to make sense Of the world But it is also intercepting The most sensitive part of the earth And this is what I would like to articulate today So this is a problem We have Greenpeace Major organization With millions of subscribers Having to organize these kind of Missions Very dangerous missions This one is in the Arctic And Every part of the world Asks them do this, do that, do this, do that And The actual organization of Greenpeace Is not that big So the Museum of World starts a conversation With our friends in London Of Greenpeace in order to Make them think In a different way how they organize Their research on this Sensible condition The space in between The ground and what is the sky And the interesting thing is that By reducing the factors Of the research To the idea that we have to Document how we are Becoming obsolete We live in a Sort of economy, in sort of a culture That is similar to the Neanderthals So the Museum of Oil Is a very strange idea We are documenting how we are Making the decision to keep oil in the ground Is not clear whether we are in the future Looking at us, having made the good decisions Or If it's an impossible decision To keep oil in the ground and make Oil something of the past And so it's a very strange situation But what we intercept is this kind Of situation Other people Sensing the earth Other people measuring the earth Other people trying to make sense of that space And in this case A fantastic mission Of Greenpeace Following the Statoyal Mission In the barren sea In order to make these kind of images In order to understand whether there is a gigantic gas field Underneath the Arctic Ocean What happens is that you explode High pressure Valves, makes a lot of noise Moves all the fish around Distracted, of course Somehow the entire ecosystem goes away In order to get this kind of Impossible to understand images But those impossible to understand images Are nothing else than Very Simple drawings That encode The geologists start Seving through They start understanding whether underneath Those explosions, underneath the ocean There can be Some oil, maybe in those Ripples of those diagrams There is oil, there is gas And so what is interesting for us In the exercise of the Museum of Oil Is to start understanding how the same image That could be that of the activist And That of the geologist of nature Turns either to preservation Of nature or to Exploitation of nature. It's always the same image And for us this is Maybe the architectural moment So how do you go from these kind of situations To Create these Very complex Architectural representations that the geologists Are doing. Architecture is somehow Trying to catch up with the rest of the sciences In understanding how to sense That relationship between what is underground What is in the sky And make sense for us Another situation where Somehow Sounding and Prospecting is a play Is in the boreal Forest, not in the Arctic seas But in the Arctic forest In this case it's in Canada And you start seeing these cuts That are next to that Big, gigantic Man-made scar There's all these other scars And this series of cuts in the forest And these pads The larger Element Of the largest industrial Operation in the world And this way This is the detail of the museum of What are these things How do they operate This is The Athabasca tar sands Seen over 15 years of satellite images In red you see What was there 15 years ago 10 years ago And in blue three years ago And so you start seeing The rapid expansion of this Thing just for you to understand The scale of the building Of this building The Little Round dots up there The two red ones together At the size of Manhattan So this is what happens there But this is only a little fracture Of the architecture The building that is the oil Industry So what happens is that You look carefully in this forest Apparently intact forest You start seeing these cuts The ones that we saw from above Just cuts in the forest So you can drive a truck And the truck goes around The forest and bumps The ground And the echo comes up In the sea And you can start producing Those beautiful architectural drawings Or geological drawings Of the underground And that is what allows you then To think that that landscape Can be an extractive landscape And you can start producing This Transformation of the sky And in the transformation of the sky You produce everything that keeps us alive You mentioned a nice piece Of the territories Bruno La Tour So everything that keeps us alive A forest and we saw how It is now becoming The site of a new imaginary For architecture Is in reality sensed In completely different ways by the geologists So the tar sands That are apparently The site of The major protests What we focus on Are actually a little part of the entire system What is at stake is a gigantic machinery A gigantic Architecture That senses the earth In order to get more out of it And more and more and more So this is where the museum of all Comes in because we know That we need to keep oil in the ground So our friends go there Climate crime And you understand The impossibility of such a fight But we also Know very well that we can't Keep oil in the ground If we would keep oil in the ground We would have to completely change The way we live We would have to change the building codes We would have to change the institutions We would have to change the architecture of structures We would have to change politics We would have to change the economical systems We would have to change different ways of Conceiving solidarities So the architecture of keeping oil in the ground Is an impossible situation Actually trying to fight is what keeps you alive Two thirds of humanity Are eating every day Food that is produced through fossil fuels Injection into The agricultural system So if we would have to cut that And withdraw From the world As we know it, we will die So what does Architecture do in this situation? This is where the negotiation comes in We think that the possibility Of just thinking that the space Of not Keeping oil in the ground And keeping in the ground Is actually the ground So what we think is that we have to Articulate in detail The conditions The territorial material conditions That make it almost impossible For us to make that decision So the Museum of Oil Doesn't help A little bit green piece In outlining for them How the operations Are nothing else than a design operation Of territories So what we saw of the forest Until now it's nothing else than this image And in this image every line Is a cut in the forest The I don't know if this has a pointer Maybe The tar sands are these That little thing That you see here is a cut in the forest In order to Prospect for oil This is half of Canada So what you start seeing Is that what we think is the largest Organization industrial operation In the world It's actually just a little fraction The possibilities Of thinking Of this project As looking Back at us from a nearby Future To keep oil in the ground Are very complicated because the information About oil Is scarce There's an enormous amount of data But the information that you get out of it Is so difficult to get It's almost impossible To understand oil It's obfuscating There's too much information You don't understand really what's going on So this is Canada And then comes A trade agreement Between Canada and The European Union And these are the protected Waters of Canada The agreement Transfers the environmental Protection into A situation Where it's now An economical advantage So all these documents have disappeared All the documents about Environmental records About the music About oil in Canada Oh, water in Canada Has been completely taken over So we used to have a situation Where the atmosphere, the land and the ocean were In exchange The earth system And then we took the fossil fuel And we put it in the atmosphere It's going to stay there For 300,000 years The atmosphere is going to be Full of carbon that is no longer Radioactive It's old carbon It's going to stay there for 300,000 years More than the half-time Half-life of the Nuclear Waste It's not taken over by land It's not taken over by the ocean And if it will be taken over by the ocean It will be acidification of the ocean So the question is Should we go and continue like this We take out the entire fossil fuels And put them in the atmosphere And then I really wonder Who will be here to think of that Maybe the bacteria that we mentioned before Might do something They've done that revolution Three and a half billion years ago So the question is In that transformation In taking fossil fuels out of the ground We have nothing else than the creation Of a gigantic Museum of architecture Gigantic building It actually weighs 30.9 trillion tons This is a rough estimate So the project Of the Museum of Oil And I will leave it as it is Is Nothing else than an attempt To document How it is difficult To think of keeping oil in the ground How it is almost impossible for us to think That we can leave oil in the ground But the reality of the reactions Will be I can't So who should keep oil in the ground You? Me? I should have stayed in London And not traveled here maybe So the entire difficulties That we saw even articulated In this Beautiful gathering today Indicated for us that What we need to do is to rethink Territories, rethink what keeps us alive And attachments Need to be redesigned and rearticulated And the Museum of Oil Was also part of a Big exhibition so it's also something That becomes Larger Public gathering Where that discussion is not only demanded To individual consents But it's also The possibility of architecture Of organizing that discussion As a Gathering space as an actual Material condition where people come together And discuss it and the idea Of the sensing of that landscape Of that architecture I would call it in between What is underground, the oil And what is above is Then reproducing this Project That we've done recently As a Condition where you are experiencing Directly the Enormity apparently Of oil in the ground but this is actually A detail, this is just a detail So the question when you're dealing With projects like this This is more towards Say The architectural audience here is that In my mind You're dealing with two difficulties The first one is that you don't have to make it too big And if it's too big You're just demoralizing everyone And nothing will happen But also if you make it too small It becomes difficult to handle So the question is really For me one of designing That condition where you understand That it's still manageable You can still do it If you gather and you Multiply agencies and maybe Not only make them human agencies But you articulate human agency With non-human agency That means animals and plants Or post-human agencies And the other conditions And the question of The dimension, the magnitude Is for me where architecture Somehow still can be Relevant today in thinking Climate change because To avert climate change We haven't really experienced climate change Just to make it clear We are in the anthropocene Where climate change will come If we gather That capacity of To be punctual enough To push the body And make it do something for us Then the amazing Capacity of architecture Of organizing conviviality And living together Might be the way forward So this is where I still think Architecture carries an enormous intelligence In thinking how we can live together On the planet And that's a few of the things That I wanted to tell you The territory Is not A land It's a system of Signals To stay out Stay out of what keeps me alive So it's a semantic condition But it's not only our condition It's a distributed agency Of Territorial Warning system It's an alert structure The question is Where is the negotiation Who are we negotiating with How do we move towards Reconciliation Between the people that are so dependent On oil With those that will destroy their lives Because remember that the majority of people That are suffering Because of oil Are the most dependent on oil So when we're talking about Degrowth Stopping our economy What will happen in reality We know very well is that we are exposing Enormous amounts of population To conditions that are Not possible So I think that this is The Way through which Very simple Intelligence of architecture Scale, dimensions Sensing, drawing Can somehow help Make a discussion Thank you Thank you very much For the invitation To be here and also kind of After the inauguration of the exhibition Kind of discuss some other Work that we've been developing In the past years The waters of sky have been changing color We know that sea water has no color But different color reflections Enter our eyes and sometimes we see blue Sometimes we see gray Or black Yet in recent years Sea water has been dominated By different hues And multiple pantons You're looking at Panton 15 55 U Are looking at Panton 15 65 U Are looking at Panton 15 75 U Are looking at Panton 486 U Are looking at Panton 16 45 U Are looking at Panton 157 U Are looking at Panton 1655 U Are looking at Panton 158 U Are looking at Panton 485 U In sky We heard about a house sparrow That had turned salmon House sparrows can be found In most places where There are houses As their name suggests The most common birds in the world Female and young birds Have brown, gray And black feathers While males have sometimes Less dull bits around their neck The sparrow we heard about in sky Had turned salmon It was believed to have eaten One of the feed pellets from a salmon farm Like a flamingo Eating shrimps The sparrow also turned Salmon Gray but salmon can also be red Or pink or even salmon In the water The success of salmon, Scottish salmon As a branding relies On colouring salmon fish Into one of 13 salmon Pantons Farmed salmon needs pinky fine pellets To substitute natural krill Which is otherwise available in the water Indeed Scottish salmon today Is neither entirely Scottish Or is it wholly salmon? 90% of Atlantic salmon Swimming in the seas And shelfed on supermarket aisles Is a domesticated species Since the 1970s Salmon slowly seized being An animal to become a profit Equation Selective breeding processes create fish Which can grow much faster To market size than In regular conditions in the wild The definition Of wild in wild animals though Is something that was made through the violence Of colonial settlement It is when nature shows signs of Collapse that the distinction Of wild and non-nawile begins To appear Wild salmon should simply be called Salmon As wild salmon was only invented As a label to refer to a system Destroyed by humans That differentiates the domestication From the non-domesticated fish And swan some remarks Domestication is what creates Disorientation in relation To the environment Rather than wild It would be more accurate to say Stream-spawning salmon as many times Hatcheries enhance the spawning Of salmon by bringing juveniles From elsewhere out into the wild Yet Farmed salmon clearly the first From stream-spawning salmon It is fed with fish Or pork-based pellets Mixed with ground up feathers Genetically modified yeast And chicken fat It is coloured artificially With pigments that make its flesh Acquire the ideal salmon tone It is marked with a black spot From vaccination on its belly Its adipose fins are clipped Disabling it from ever swimming properly Outside the farm pen It is heavily dependent on antibiotics To fight disease and parasite Like lethal sea lice Resulting for swimming in circles In close proximity Grown in the cylindrical open nets Containing about one million fish Per farm Market salmon is severely affecting Both the body of the fish But also the seabed Hundreds of kilos of salmon manure Sink through the open nets Their instruments are deposited At the bottom of the sea Suffocating the entire ecosystem Creating dead zones Invisible suspended particles Float away and give the water Supplementary colours These open nets function Like toxic toilets With open water sewage Which is discharged onto the open seas By the tidal flow One of the places we associate With salmon is Scotland Where salmon has been A food source for centuries Since the 1980s however The appearance of a multitude Of salmon farms all over the country Have been dramatically changing The aquatic landscape In 2016 a moratorium On fishing's so-called wild Salmon was passed in Scotland As their numbers have been Traumatically dropping Fishermen have been blamed For its disappearance While the environmental impact Caused by industrial aquaculture Is not held accountable And alone 15 salmon farms Are currently growing Millions of fish per year Recently many salmon Had to be sacrificed in sky As not even strong antibiotics Could keep the sea lice under control In such high concentration of fish Hundreds of thousands of fish Have been exterminated In order not to threaten The entire industry But still the industry does not Acknowledge any connection And the high concentration of animals Swimming in the same spots Farming corporations claim That the parasite is simply A natural phenomenon Instead of sacrificing fish The industry has begun To try to kill off the sea lice With chemicals Lice are becoming resistant To those antibiotics So greater quantities have to be used Together with more toxic components That are frequently found in pesticides And some nerve agents But today Scottish salmon Does not only come from Scotland Salmon hatching row Is part of an intricate transnational network Of circulation Of precious genes With eggs fertilized And incubated in different facilities And ready to be sent from farming sites To farming sites Across the world The Scottish Salmon Company Has branded itself as the purveyors Of authentically Scottish salmon Despite being registered in Jersey Owned by a Swiss bank And with Ukrainian Norwegian investors Floated on the Oslo Stock Exchange And using important Norwegian Genetic material for their Farmed salmon Greek seafood hodland sources Salmon from the wild waters Of Scotland But wild here refers to the water And not to the fish itself It is no surprise That the Spencer salmon brand name Is Loch Mooir Indeed a Scottish wilderness sounding name Yet Loch Mooir Is a place that does not exist on the map Aldi promotes best of Scotland salmon With an image of a fishing boat When it is actually farmed in Norway And the Faroe Islands Morrison's promote Is, promotes catch of the day salmon Which is sourced from farms in Norway And Scottish quality salmon Which is farmed in Norway Only smoked in Scotland The desire for consumption Of Scottish landscape Is rendered through fish matter Five out of the six Salmon conglomerates operating In the Isle of Skye depend on Norwegian owned capital And consist of corporations that were Legally obliged to monitor the Salmon farming activity in Norway Despite disguising their operations Through branches in different countries The 11 largest salmon Farm corporations in the world Have still their headquarters in Norway Given that the Norwegian Government has been introducing More environmental restriction Because of the detrimental effects Of the salmon farming on Norwegian coastal waters Some of these companies Have found fertile ground and water In less restrictive countries Like Scotland or Chile Marine Harvest The largest salmon farming conglomerate In the world is also operating In Skye waters When the Scottish clearances Happened some 200 years ago Thousands of gale people were Dispossessed, evicted from their villages And banned from living off the land As they used to Today salmon farming corporations Are replicating a similar process By clearing the seabed And as more and more Dead zones are appearing all around Salmon farms These new wave of oceanic Clearances we could say is a multi-billion business But only for a few Therefore, Scottish salmon Has become a brand that needs to be Critically rethought Not only from an environmental And ecological perspective, but also Questioning what Scottish And salmon means in that construction Farmed salmon is the result Of the fish becoming a product Of biocapital and Biomass And as Elizabeth Lyon claims It's a creature bred to be hungry And its job is to put on weight In order to Quantify the salmon's success The equation feed conversion ratio Indicates the quantity Of feed pellets, three kilos That equal in biomass gain, one kilo And that Three to one is the efficiency ratio With which feed pellets Are converted into salmon flesh The new feed pellet factory That has been built in Skye Is meant to provide 55 jobs Undoubtedly an important And significant amount for such a Small island community Yet it is still not entirely clear How many will serve local population And how many will be long lasting Positions At the same time, the new plant legitimizes The environmentally damaging presence Of open net salmon farms In the waters around the island To keep up with demand Salmon is the biggest selling seafood In the UK But even if it's labeled as organic There's a big disparity between The amount of organic labeled farms And the non-sufficient amount Of so-called organic pellets Available in the market Besides the fact that the fish Components of the pellets is made out Of Peruvian chanf anchovies among others It is also living to Another form of colonization Of the ocean, depleting resources For local fishermen in Peru In order to feed Norwegian and Scottish Salmon on the other side of the world Surrounded by the rugged landscape In the distant coastline and our Lochs of sky, there are many ways In which market salmon performs nature One of them is how Salmon is bred beyond natural Reproductive seasons Year-round consumer demands require The fish body to be constantly Fertile Farms in northern latitudes Deceive the fish to make them Think that they are living in a different Time of the year For that purpose, a black roof dome Is sometimes added on top of the Open net pens to distort Their perception, as if they Were living in a different season In winter periods of 24-hour darkness, artificial Fluorescent lights are turned On and off On and off On and off And on and off Power cycles simulate Light conditions of spring, summer Or autumn Held by artificial light And underwater heaters, this light regime Triggers the reproductive system By deceiving their sense of orientation Continuous light Accelerates fish growth So that the farm can deliver salmon All year-round They are carefully engineered Housing conditions have the power To advance or delay spawning time To produce eggs out of season 12 hours of light And 12 hours of darkness Some years have two summers And others skip a winter These accelerated growth Has consequences for the fish Which among becoming insensitive And other physical deformities Has also damaged their autolids And made the fish become deaf Paradoxically, the fact That farmed salmon cannot hear Reduces its stress from Having it in the very noisy machinery Of a floating farm Another way to perform nature In the salmon farm is the creation Of fake seaweed habitats As hiding spots for us A fish being transplanted From the southwest coast of England To Scotland to eat the sea lice That attacked the salmon Made with stripes of rubbish bags These fake habitats allow us to hide From the hundreds of thousands Of fish swimming around in the pen And eat their sea lice comfortably To such extent that rust Despite not being eaten by humans Has become one of the most sought after And expensive fish in the UK For this purpose Another disruption of the Reproductive system is the way Escapes are trapped Between being a domesticated And a wild species Guided by a memory of the magnetic field Or a smell of a place Or even the sun Reorient their migration And with it they're fulfilled Their sense of belonging. But bred in an onshore laboratory Farmed salmon lost that inherent Sense of memory. It can no longer find its birthplace upstream And return there to spawn. It is disconnected from any Natal river and disoriented in the sea Or providing that it ever escapes Where does it go? Homeless and outlawed, an escapie Becomes an alien in its original river. In Norway Escapes are listed as a threat To the so-called wild salmon population. If they're mixed with their Wild counterpart outside the farm The new fish will be part of The disrupted system. Only a few months ago 21,000 salmon fish Escaped from a farming sky. This raises the question Where does an escapie return to Or how can it find its way Back upstream? Farmed salmon tries to swim To its natal place to spawn It sometimes goes back to the hatchery That created a magnetic Or a factory imprint in its brain. Farmed salmon is only Recently becoming an animal Unless a product. With more studies and regulations Trying to understand its feelings Its memories and its sense of orientation The question still remains What is a domesticated, cultivated Or tamed salmon? Farmed salmon an industrial Aquaculture success or an environmental catastrophe From the local habitat To the global market The scales at which salmon performs Are yet to be decultured. After decades of overfishing An exhaustive salmon farming Skies waters have reached a point Where seasonal productivity, Equality and employment need to be Rethoughts. Food seasons as we know them Have ceased to exist. Or even salmon filling the shelves All year round. You have all seasons. Beyond this flattened 365 day long season What would be the new periods We could eat according to today? If humans have been changing The environments, how can we Also change our food systems To adapt to them and build Other forms of landscape? Climavore explores How to eat as climate changes A form of devouring That follows the consequences of anthropogenic landscapes Affected by intensive forms Of extraction. Different from carnivore, omnivore, Locavore, vegetarian or vegan diets It is not so much the ingredients That define climavore But rather the infrastructural responses To human induced climatic events. New seasons of food production And consumption have begun To appear. Dry seasons are sometimes More arid and sometimes less. Rainy seasons are becoming longer But sometimes shorter. The number of Frost-free nights has increased In some places but decreased in others. These non-absolute cycles Are discontinuous, disjointed, Disconnected and non-sequentially Repetitive. But do dropping water levels justify Digging deeper wells To exhaust even deeper aquifers Or could we acclimatize our existence To flexible patterns Beyond intensive water consumption? The newly imaginaries, landscapes And infrastructures reveal A new set of clues for adapting Our diet, anxieties or desires To them. Climavore aims to rethink The environmental futures of coastal Inhabitation and the coastal Commons through a diet that can Effectively transform desires And infrastructure. In the case of polluted shores By salmon farms, it takes The tidal zone as an ambiguous Site that appears, disappears Reappears and constantly Changes in size. Coastal space has no clear definition And opens up for murky Yet cleaner usership And can become today the entrance Into a new ecology But also to It's a way to rethink other Aquacultures in the Isle of Skye And its tidal zones to become A site of opportunity for more Sensitive practices. Human induced climatic alterations Of the waters, ranging from Increasing acidification of the ocean Appearances of new parasites And disappearance of species Could be approached through other forms Of eating and sourcing of nutrients. Different from intensive Salmon farming that produces An excess of nitrogen, other Creatures do opposite processes. They clean the water by breathing So do other filter feeder bibles Like clams, razor clams, scallops Barnacles but also seaweeds Like kelp, sea lettuce Or dolls. They all provide an incredible source Of easy access protein without Any need for feed or fertilizers. Despite having lost connection To date to some of these ingredients They were abandoned and used both By humans and animals. There are archeological remains Of prehistoric sheep in Scotland With marks in their teeth That indicate a kelp based diet And even in modern times A booming industry in sky Emerged for kelp based explosive During the Napoleonic wars Of the 1820s. Kelp was used to improve Poor soils for millennia. In places like Jersey, in the Channel Islands The use of seaweed collected From the ocean as fertilizer Had been a common practice With laws explicitly regulating Citizens' rights but also The optimal seasons for its gathering Certain varieties like kelp Or bladderwreck Had abounded quantities of minerals That once laid on the fields Would slowly be released And accelerate the growth of vegetables And tubers. Crofters have used the tidal zones Not only for fish traps where all sorts Of fish would be caught By the low tide but also To for its does and eat it raw Or boiled in soup. Over centuries food sourcing Enabled social structures where women Were the strength of fishing economies From sorting oysters in the beach Lifting the catch to carrying their husbands To the shore. Oysters have also been cheap sources of protein In the east coast of the US Oyster traders had these hybrid House barges from where they would Moor in different piers To sell their stock to wholesale suppliers Their mobile barges Were a hybrid between a fish Facility, a shop An impromptu eatery And a home all together After sourcing oysters From naturally occurring beds It was later discovered that they could be grown In oyster tables Structures going hundreds of meters into the sea Where oysters were washed By the tides following moon cycles In the Isle of Skye Our oyster table functions As a dining table And opens the discussion around other Aquacultures that could happen Every day at high tide The structure allows its 1,000 Oysters to breathe While each one filters up to 120 liters Of sea water per day At low tides the oyster table Emerges above the sea And functions as a dining table Where we placed some humans Over breakfast, lunch or dinner According to the tides Performative meals feature a series Of climb of our ingredients Where workshops with fishermen, politicians Residents and scientists Have been held to discuss Another cultural imaginary For the island Guests enjoyed bloody oyster cocktails Crunchy shingles or lasagna For sure Amongst many other, climb of our delights Aiming to divest away From salmon farming And develop alternative aquacultures A network of restaurants was also Established And each one replaced farm salmon For a dish in their menus We had a food truck, a local bakery A pie shop, a bar, a hotel Or a Michelin star restaurant Serving climb of our dull soup Cocoa kelp, climb of our ice cream Climb of our kelp whiskey Twice-dived climb of our scallops Or climb of our rope-grown mussel nibbles The ongoing project Is expanding into a new permanent installation The climb of our station In Port Tree To secure traineeships and placements From the professional cooking school Through pedagogical and professional development The future cooks of the island Can start introducing a new coastal Imaginary The tidal zone is a space of opportunity For discussing the spatial constructions Of the ocean and its shores To rethink coastal policy And facilitate small-scale Independent initiatives The climb of our station will also be A new place to provide legal advice And consultancy on how to Open your own oyster or seaweed farm While supporting Also how to object Planning applications that are trying To open and expand salmon farms In Scotland And all of these while serving Climb of our dishes Slowly, people coming up to sky Would ask for a sky kelp Sky dulls, sky oysters Or sky mussels Ingredients that regenerate the coast By breathing. In this era Of increasingly evident, man-induced Climatic events On the tidal zone, therefore, we can Determine what we eat as climate Changes. Well, thank you, John. It was fascinating To hear about the Museum of Oil It's a project that we really like And appreciate also what He's trying to do. And maybe One of the questions also That for us would be Interesting to discuss is this idea Not only just to keep oil in the ground And the kind of frictions around that But also what you were saying about The different scales Of magnitudes at which it operates And then As a first point Also connecting to the framework of the day On what is the building scale Or how we move beyond Kind of the immediate scale Of the building or the built environment around us But how do we consider the whole territory As a building almost Built infrastructure Or the environment As a built environment Maybe that one point And the other one Maybe to think of what other Perceptions Or cultural imaginaries we could think of Concerning those different Or multiple scales And I think also if to address The question of cultural imaginary Also the idea of The museum And kind of how the Because I think it's a very conscious choice Of course to make it a museum of oil And you touched upon it in the beginning But I think there's like Much more time back there The other day Greta Said all of that is In being the museum She was referring to politicians In Europe Trying to address climate change And she said all of this should be in the museum The idea of the museum of oil Should be dumped into the museum It's not the celebration of Say It's a little bit like going to The British Museum Where there's a clear narrative That there's been one empire after the other And then there's the British empire It's one Or there's a Particular Open air museums that I Really like and those are the Places of scene And people having the Places of scene Diet And you try to be like The caveman And you have to spend a few weeks In the Iron age Exactly like that We are the iron age Of The world We're not advanced It's so decrepit It's a zombie Economic model The way through which The oil industry operates Is through Similar way to your Salmon It's through the establishment of a ratio It's called the reserve replacement ratio The more oil you have Your Value will be Decreasing the more you consume You will be able to constantly replace Your reserves But it's difficult to replace Your reserves Especially when there's nationalized Oil companies That take over Spaces from what used to be The big oil companies So you have to go to more and more risky places You go to the Arctic You go underneath What they call the pre-salt Just off the coast of Brazil And taking out The tar from the sand Imagine it's sand with tar And you have to take away the sand It actually doesn't make any sense To take away To take energy out of the tar sands You put in more energy Than you actually take out But what is important to understand In the museum of oil Is that Of course It's more than energy But it's more than energy It's power Oil is a commodity When we think of the Transformation of fossil fuels From being in the ground to being in the sky And in the technosphere What we're describing Is the financialization of the world Is the fact that we are Living in a moment where The capital Generated by oil Any work Any reorganizing City or reorganization Of an economy Can do And so the margins Of profit for any operation Are becoming less and less And so what happens is that You cut wages You cut social security You cut quality of houses You cut budgets for architecture Art is too expensive You don't want And so you start seeing the entire Depletion, that's why I think Really understand how Oil operates and why we should keep it In the museum and put it in the museum Is that it's a zombie, it's dead It's really too late Even if you try to imagine A brilliant future out of it And skyscrapers Steel and glass New York and Chicago That's It's not something that we can aim at So the imaginary, unfortunately Of oil is that of progress Of democracy It brings democracy in progress And this is the difficult part That's why it's so difficult to think An answer to your question And what is the social imaginary It's progress So how do you make progress Into something that is In the museum And this is where I think the argument And doing less I think finds difficulty I think that has a little traction I think the majority of people That are depending On our economies Based on oil Cannot imagine further cuts No matter how much we would like To think of degrowth We are living in an impoverished Society And I think that this country Like the country I live in Has experienced a recent political Terminal exactly because of that The majority of people cannot Afford degrowth Make America What is it? Also I think Within the Increasing financialization Of the environment Of the built environment It would be Something that we also think a lot about Options or choices do we have as strategies From this idea of Divestment Working in the past with Carbon tracker Or people like these collectives Organizations What kind of tactics Or spaces of opportunity Within that idea of divestment Could we think of If that's possible Keep all in the ground Means you have to push The Interesting thing for architects Is to start thinking That as an architectural project And this is where I would like to ask you Because it's obvious that For me the You mentioned Norway Norway is The largest financial Machine in the world It's the largest Fund Which is based on oil My question to you is really How much do you think that as A financial project It seems really interesting No I really like The presentation is beautiful But the idea is so beautiful Because it somehow Caters to Those who want to eat oysters And The most luxurious things Which is actually a very poor Food How you take that And you put it upside down And I think that is where Imagineries come in It's not let's imagine a new world It's a minute Manatinkering I think that what you are doing And this is the question I think in my mind What you are doing is to show That architecture is an operating system And the question for me is How much do you think that you can reboot Upgrade the operating system Reboot Reboot When you You upgrade, sometimes the upgrade Doesn't work and your machine Is stuck Do you have to reboot it Or do you simply upgrade Well I mean I think in that sense it's Bring back something one of the early paradox So that you bring In your conversation In a way In these systems that we cannot There's no possibility Just to reboot the system And from there How do you Continue to work Within the problem I think one of the interesting things For us with oysters And biophiles in general That they are filter feeders Which what it means That we are eating Right and on There's something there That in a way kind of Not only kind of And there are of course Certain grades and it's not that you eat You don't eat necessarily oysters That are coming from like heavily polluted areas And they could Be kind of they're tested But still the components That what the oysters are feeding on Is the pollution from the ocean And in that sense I think there is An interesting moment there That you have to come to terms With the fact that in order to continue Living on the planet you have to also Consume the planet that we've created So in that sense I mean I think Yes there's like a possibility To shift like to imaginaries And to kind of maybe They vest in kind of certain directions The possibility to reboot I'm not so sure But Actually I think that that is Where it is all at stake My friend Bruno Latour says Reset but it's actually reboot I think It's a very Similar concept You have to keep what you would really Like to keep And reorganize Everything recompose everything So that you can survive You can land But your project In my mind there's something more than that It's not a shifting of Imaginary It does something really interesting Because it takes what we already know Being good And simply Point it out again It's like oh look you already have it And to me that is a gesture That is really interesting Like when you mentioned the fact That there's no such thing as wild salmon Actually I disagree on that The One of the Possible markers of the Anthropocene Is the fact that the Contemporary domesticated salmon Has mutated And We have more and more Evidence Of that kind of animals In the sediment than the original Salmon with the salmon So there's a Particular condition about that It's like we have more We'll have more fossils of Chicken than any other animal In the world That's the Anthropocene But you do something really interesting Because in my mind what you're doing Is Diverting attention Diverting attention to Something that is already there And the fact that you have to go out In the tidal area And bring people there Makes other people Change their mind And I think that is exactly what architecture does It indicates, it frames It establishes something That is always recognized It's not an invention It's simply attention My question then is really How much do you think that is an architectural project Or is it an artistic Practice project Or is it an ecological project In terms of branding Because there's a lot of branding in the project And I think that is a really Undervalued Aspect of contemporary practice Is how much we can name things And we can assert them Because I think that even in The very first presentation In the early afternoon It was a new company That is asserting that we're doing something It's not just doing it You have to go assert it This is an important part of architecture Talking about things Convening like this one is important Is it an art project For a culinary project How do we deal With complex questions today How do you start Dealing with mega corporate conglomerates Be it oil, be it salmon farms Be it financial structures What kind of possibilities As spatial practitioners Or whatever form of practice Do we have to say something Or do we start shifting Because sometimes Greenpeace has an incredible infrastructure Maybe not that big But compared to other people it's quite considerable In terms of visibility Or human resources But from an independent perspective What kind of small things We can do Versus these giants That can slowly, almost like a virus Try to change things as a mode of intervention And then if it's about the creation of space Or the creation of alternative landscapes I think in that sense We enjoy collaborating with Whoever has A form of expertise Be it in the field of botany Or marine ecology Or policy making Or bringing these politicians in With the mission stuff But I think what is at the core there That there is a question of organization And that is At the end of the day it's an architectural question And that's And I think this is also Kind of To bring back the museum of oil To that also where is the space Of organization there Because I think there is Of course it exists By the means of production For instance of the museum of oil But it's something that is not Or at least in the talk today It's not something that is put At the forefront of the project But it's an institution in the making And that's clear It's an organizational structure And I think that is An important element I think that we share a lot Of these discussions about how do you think An architectural practice has an Intervention in existing Social structures In existing practices of Culture making So it's not about the object How you operate Amongst things And in that sense I think our little museum Is A strange thing because It asserts that it's An impossible museum It's not clear if it's in the future Or if it's in the past So it's a really Bizarre thing Looking from the future So is it now looking at All the destructions that we've done And no, there's no chance Oil will win But the organizational part Is also Pragmatically Associated with connecting A lot of Existing practices Of activism Behind the scenes though It's not really about Jumping off the oil rig Or climbing down The facade of The other oil museums Like Tate Modern All the cultural institutions That are heavily sponsored by oil It's not that kind of thing It's an organizational structure Behind the scenes so it has to do With having people From A legal firm Inquiring into our research Material in order to pursue A Case for Compensation against shell oil Or it's about connecting A human rights organization With an environmental organization It's about recreating conditions That are Apparently disparate But putting them as an architectural project In a way the work That you presented In the context of A Culture Kind of A moment Of climatic priorities Or sensitivity To climate If we read it from architectural practices Is very clearly Stating or kind of establishing A number of shifts One is that your projects are highly situated Both of you presented A lot of time to To prepare the Kind of field of relationships The networks of interactions That you're dealing with And that's something that It was the center of your work To also dedicating time To representing it To presenting it To constructing these realities As something that could be sensed Second thing I think that is A notion of architectural devices Or architectural Action as something that Can only be read, I would say From the perspective of Politics in action So it's in the process Of doing politics Or politics to happen As something that this collaborative Between all these different actors Architecture is One of these political actors And it makes sense As we read politics As something that happens within time And through interaction And I think that's also a very different Way of understanding The political dimension of Architectural devices I think there's another one that has to do with Huge need to Acknowledge What is the agency of architecture Or architectural action In You called Distributed agency To also be called maybe To acknowledge That there's an agency for architectural devices Architectural action But that is negotiated with others But nevertheless There's a sense of responsibility In using this agency And discussing What is the way that that agency Can be effective And that also reconstructs a little bit Massively What we mean by architecture You're bringing The discussion of semiotics In architecture, communication Imagination Or imaginaries Cultural dimension The political dimension of culture Aesthetics Sensing, reorientation, direction Pointing It's a very particular vocabulary Of what's the way architecture Makes or what's the politics of architecture So if we put all these things together We're talking of practice But practice is something different When it's dealing with the kind of Approaches that you pose Yeah, on many levels I think that what you're indicating Is for us thinking from architecture We tend to Inhabit In particular in Architecture education I think a lot of discourses Of the discipline As if the world has to look Into the architecture What we're interested In doing is from architecture Outwards Actually Our friend in Paris said they didn't want to come But they were a little bit It was a pity that they couldn't be here Because it's so nice to be invited From Colombia Actually this is the least interesting Audience that we can have Because we're preaching to converted All architects These are all architects They already know what architecture can do The interesting thing is to be an architect And go out and speak to Those who think that architecture Is too expensive It's an indulgence It will just make things more and more expensive And will stop the process So that's where I think architecture Can become interesting as a practice In the end In my understanding A professional practice is Very similar in architecture As in banking You have to scare your client If you don't do this Many dangerous things will happen Sorry to say this publicly But you have to be able to somehow Pursuade certain Decisions To occur Vis-a-vis certain risks And in my mind The major risk that we are facing Today is the fact that We are overestimating The power Of these organizations I think that they are So outstretched They appear gigantic and everywhere But actually they went thin And when you go thin You're simply overstretched And you become fragile To me that is where architecture Then can intervene and organize things So it's about thinking To say a device that Somehow can put pressure In the right moment, in the right places Conditions that are already overstretched The risk that the Oil industry poses on our economy Is much larger than the advantages That it gives Much larger We are talking about a possibility Of a mega recession That would be in magnitude Much larger than that of 2009 If the oil industry Goes bust And it could go bust Look at what has happened in this country With the shale boom And the derelict landscapes That it has left behind If the rest of the industry goes bust And it could go bust Look at what's going on in Saudi Arabia And the convulsions Of the Saudi Structures That are trying to offset their risk Now they make it Even so Abhorrent If that goes bust, we all suffer So how do we redesign it from within This is, to me, the difficult But it's so fragile And your project of The farms in Scotland makes it very clear If people start wanting clams What's the project For the Scottish Salman It is marketed to be Something exclusive If that becomes evident That it's something that people don't want They are dead business Their risk is too high Could you talk a bit more about Your experience in Dealing with practice Or the work of territorial agency In international fora Or the UN Or the NGO In terms of Response to the work Or small shifts That might have happened By discussing the work Of territorial agency in such fora And I think also Because it ties also to the question The view on this Is that the questions that we are Post with today Needs kind of Require developing new forms of practice If it can be public It's a difficult question because It's a self-reflective Question So for us territorial Agency is not An agency like an office It's a project To recognize agency In territories That means that there are Existing structures Of risk That are existing That have a capacity to act So when we are engaging And we decided early on With Ansofi that we would be engaging With Organizations both Local or international In making them understand That they are operating those Territories And if they understand their territories They will come up with better solutions Than any architect can come up with It's their interest What keeps them alive And so they have to organize that Spatial structure Which doesn't mean a continuity on the Controits Very complex spatial organization And our role is simply to make Them more alert To that condition So how we do this Practically Since we are in a school of architecture Is that our office is super small We have And everyone of them Is probably Many of you might think Even more megalomaniac than the other After oil we are doing oceans Because we thought oil was too small But in reality there are very small Projects We have a very small Team That we embed In the organization That we partner with So it's not that we have Reloads that are frontal But they are lateral Because we Put three or four People On the top floor Of Greenpeace working in a booth Amongst the other researchers And helping them So they start collaborating In a different way Or we Simply go in The Ministry of Water Infrastructure in the Netherlands And we take existing Solutions And we make them collaborate By having one or two people Working with them So it's a very small, minute Intervention in existing Large organizations Even the work And it's two or three projects That we are trying to do with The United Nations It's not the United Nations We have ocean data How to create an ocean data alliance So that we start thinking Of data about 71% of our planet Being shared And at the moment it's not shared And if we start sharing that Maybe we can act better And then you go back To what Andres is saying You have to describe the entire project As an analysis Of your client or your partners You have to be so clear about What you think they are And communicate constantly to them And say, I think that you're doing this It's not always nice For them to hear Because maybe they misunderstand you Other times they endorse you But the negotiation Is mainly with who you collaborate With If you're lucky Then you can push a political agenda That is larger Or sometimes even Local We're very proud about how We have very small projects They're not so Exhibited Well, first of all Many thanks for these fantastic presentations And for the summit in general I would like to ask you Something that is very much related To this last question Precisely about processes And I would like to ask you both About time and temporalities At some point Because You were talking about different scales Physical scales That could come from a microbiological Scale To large territories Or even, you know, oceans As Jung was saying With temporalities you are doing Exactly the same You are talking from geological times To seasons to daily life To multiple futurities So my question would be How do you deal with time And how do you deal with these temporalities Not only from a human perspective But also from an interspecies Perspective Because also both of you Are talking not only from Human perspectives But from some other Agencies Let's say I think just From practical terms One of the things That you commit Or see the opportunity In the tidal zone A space of ambiguity A murky Space of governance That is controlled by a certain Time frame That a project becomes completely Subjected to it From extremely practical Things of when you can go Install When you can actually Stand and when you drown And how does that Start to really Not organize, is not an event It not only dictates the moment Of When you have dinner or breakfast But it really starts dictating The whole mode of action Of the project How do you really commit To the cycles and the opportunities That you bring and in that sense Also the longevity The life that takes oysters to grow Is also Is much longer than the amount of time It takes a salmon for instance to grow And what do you do with that time And in thinking of Like a business structure Of the possibility to make a luxurious Item something that is kind of Can be again consumed By people as it was Done for like hundreds of years Always, you're always asking the most Difficult questions And it's always about time You start knowing You It's not really Clear For most of us But the time we are in now The Anthropocene Is One of the five Major revolutions of the planet Five One of the others includes the great Oxygenation Oxidation That means What we're dealing at the moment Is in a very limited Time span, something that we think It's Maybe A news feed In a few years We have created an event Really from The late 80s until now We created this gigantic event Which is knowledge of climate change So in 25 years We created this event That allows us to understand Five billion years What we're doing now Is Comparable to the five billion Years of the earth But I'm interested in The Event of the knowledge of climate change Which is the last 25 30 years Which is a very complex system Full of convulsions Negations And the fights And the Haspirations and all kinds of things But we are in that event So I think that that event Is for us the Interesting Time We are at incredible times IPCC tells you Before we have to radically Change Our system If you read carefully And understand The implications of the 1.5 degrees That's 1.5 degrees Globally Which means some areas Will be well above That And our friends in London Who try to block Copenhagen Will have said no It's impossible to ask large populations To be in 3 degrees Because it means That they don't have food How can you sign up to that agreement I know that this country Is trying really hard to pretend That you're not actually coming out Of the Paris agreement But in the Paris agreement Which is part of this event There's something Phenomenal We all sign up As members of this international community To the fact that we need to Stay within the 2 degrees At the end of the century Already we start thinking ahead But at the same time as you're doing that You realize that you need 5.5 planets To stay Like that So What's going on So the question of time Is really mind boggling But I think about this constantly The Carbon That we are putting in the atmosphere And it's going to stay there for a long time It's old carbon There's a fantastic scientist In London And she's calculated that the ratio At which we are putting new carbon In the old carbon in the atmosphere Is making the new and the old carbon Similar Similar to what it was in Year 1,000 So by 2050 We'll have a situation Where we cannot distinguish Whether we are in the year 2050 On the year 1,000 in terms of carbon dating Because There's old carbon that is not radioactive So the amount of radioactive Carbon would have decreased so much In Comparative terms So what it means is that So How can you start even Thinking that So Time is the most difficult element of the project And we only have 11 years So it's It's the most difficult question I think And it's not even an issue of urgency I think it's not that I think we are more in a situation Like Cuvier That tries to explain To the French And the only way that he can explain geology To the French is to tell them it's a revolution Exactly like what is happening around you Really At the beginning of the 19th century A few years after the revolution Goes in public And geology is a revolution Like you had a few years ago That's the situation we are here Discussing We are completely puzzled I'm puzzled I'm completely puzzled by the Anthropocene I think that the Anthropocene is the most incredible Solution We think always that the revolution is about to come But in the Anthropocene it has already happened It's 1950 Everything has changed So are we going to act on something that has already happened When all our social Organizations are about Progress About doing something better But we should have done something better Are we Post-revolution Pre-apocalypse Post-acropolis That means mind boggling I cannot put my head around it Maybe we can leave it here Thank you very much