 Going back to the micro dosing or psychedelics in general. What do you think? What do you think it's needed right now? What type of research is needed to kind of keep on pushing where we're heading like I basically what I want is I don't want I Think well, there's two worlds here. There's the world of people who are enthusiasts Actually, there's three worlds with people who are enthusiasts There's the old world where it's like medicine healers and shamans and then there's a scientific world and all of them serve their purpose What do you think we need right now? What type of studies do we need to kind of really push this more into a safer narrative? What do you mean when you say safer narrative? So from it might not be a good description. So it may be more or less a more optimal way of Utilizing these medicines like you and I before the show we're talking about Iboga or like anything it can be shrooms. It can be LSD. It can be ayahuasca You pick your medicine and traditionally speaking, you know shamans would take tell you to take this much of a dose This is how you do it cool. So they have thousands of years of wisdom I get it and I respect that the exact same time I know for a fact my mother will never do that and I know she can benefit from it But maybe we find in studies that we don't need to necessarily do five grams of X maybe we come to realization that we 0.5 every four days actually gives you good results because we just don't know right now, right? And so what do you think is necessary? What types of studies right now? Do we need to kind of start doing to find these? Answers out mm-hmm. I think that's a great question and Like I'm trying to think so my answer betrays my biases so I think that we need to do more work on a variety of doses because We don't know exactly. What is the effect of dose? Robin Carr-Hartaris wrote a paper with Carl Friston. It was published this year It's it's that discusses something that they refer to as the rebus model. Okay, and So Carl Friston so Robin Carr-Hartaris is like the most famous guy who does psychedelics research But Carl Friston is I think a lot of late people have never heard of him And he's one of the most influential psychologists of our generation He came up with this thing called the free energy principle Yeah, I don't want to talk about it too much, but in this specific paper They pause it that in order to see effective change in the brain and therefore in behavior and experience You need large doses And I'm not clear on why they think that that is the case. I Respect both of these scholars immensely, right? They're awesome But I also think that this is like I think and I think that they put forward an interesting theory But again having my bias. I'm like, hmm. Why do we need large doses? Like it really seems that micro dosing does something And because there's no reliable research so far. It's really hard for me to make this claim more strongly I'm more saying Yeah, maybe the next thing we should be doing is looking at a variety of doses and I think that there are a couple of People that are interested in doing that, but one of them is compass pathways and they're mostly interested in monetizing it So I don't know that any of their work will be published in the foreseeable future I think that More broadly perhaps rather than Specific things that we should study which I would say is like different doses different schedules set and setting just like basic stuff I think more broadly that a lot of people especially the enthusiasts you mentioned They're like fast. We got to get this done now yesterday like yeah, the door is open and we got it we got it like push and I Appreciate again, this is my bias like I appreciate where they're coming from I think there are a lot of people that suffer and we could really help people If we made this more widely available But I also think that there's an inherent risk in that and we've already messed this up once Right, perhaps not the scientific community Maybe not the healers not the therapists. Yeah, it's no one in particular, but there was a perfect storm there Yeah, I read that in Michael Pollan's book. Yeah, the history. Yeah, and I thought he really did a good job Yeah, great job of that So I think that each of us wherever whichever our group is we need to kind of decide what's best long term I understand that if like you see people in your life that are suffering and you just like want to help them so much But I'm also thinking we need to try and take it slow and be careful and do really solid work So that future generations can build on this rather than you know Go leaps and bounds and then there's a lot of missing space in the middle and I'm saying this like I think again Where I'm coming from is I was doing mindfulness research before psychedelics And that's your that's it's all garbage all that field is not hundred percent Bad and it's because and I think we can really like and what's going on with psychedelics now to the beginning of the interest in Mindfulness, but it's coming on much faster. It's like oh wow This could be good for a bunch of people for a bunch of indications We should maybe try it for this try it for that and then Instead of kind of trying to understand How it does what it does what exactly it does Who it's good for what it's good for now You just have my mindfulness like mindfulness mindful that everyone it's just like a buzzword that means nothing and We can't afford to do that with psychedelics like you could break people's minds with psychedelics. I've known people who've snapped from it Yeah, so I am worried that we're gonna go the same route and instead of having Psychedelic this psychedelic that and just it being super popular You're just gonna have nothing again Because these substances are powerful same thing like in marijuana like and listen I'll be the first one. I've done a lot of drugs I've OD twice back in my party days like I'm to 34. This is when I was like 18 19 Oppers and downers raves three nights like end up in the hospital. I like Anyways, I've done it all mm-hmm I've done almost Almost all of this psychedelics. I've had crazy trips brother My worst trip was edibles. Hmm. Hands down. Really hands it down. What was that like? Oh fuck the worst I'll tell you I know it's probably like I think it was like four or five hundred milligrams It's a lot. This is a long time ago. Mm-hmm, and I knew what I did so it's not like. Oh, it's a mystery The thing was like when I overdosed twice before it's like I'm not conscious. Okay, so I there's like a brief one hour tour window. I feel fucked then I'm blackout Then I'm offline. I wake up. I'm in the ambulance or the hospital So the actual feeling of the experience is non-existent. Mm-hmm. So there's no pain. There's no psychological Ramification is like, oh shit. I know what kind of what happened here. I am don't do that again Obviously, I didn't learn from my first lesson Psychedelics is like, okay, I'm going through the process. Yeah, it's scary depending on what you're doing Okay, however shrooms is I mean a shrimp edibles is a whole different level So one they do become psychoactive when you eat it as opposed to smoke it. I Was sitting on a bed Pale faced Cold sweats running in and in and out of the washroom for like six hours keys Shivering like this in a fucking wormhole. The problem is you're conscious of what you're experiencing. That's the problem It's not enjoyable and I'm just there like this For hours no joke just for our shaking in this wormhole and the fucked up thing is like I know I'm fucked up I know what I did and like your mind is racing as opposed to like I've done You know, I've done DMT the vape. I've done heroes journey of shrooms and I'm blasted Like it's like a crazy experience and I have bad trips on shrooms gonna be wrong, but it's I can't I can't even come it's not even on the same fucking planet as me taking edibles But yet here we are edibles now coming everywhere and I'm like you guys like Fucking be careful with fucking edibles. So I wonder what's gonna happen, right? Like there's so with a like federal election Yes now and Sheer saying hey, maybe I won't keep weed legal and which is just crazy to me But then so you have I think people are gonna vote for that people I think there's still Canadians and people globally who really think that may yeah, maybe weed shouldn't be legal Yeah, and then you got those people and you've got edibles and that could be a bad mix like People could get really bad trips same as you. Oh, yeah, so Yeah, I'm worried to be honest. Yeah, I'm like this is Like I'm so excited about what's going on right now with psychedelics But I'm also worried because I can see that it's a double-edged sword Like for me the research that I care about going Forward is yes, I agree like let's figure out the dosage. Let's figure out quality how you grow it You know standardization is really important set in setting actually creating a playbook like anything in life, but also then Figuring out, okay, like we mentioned this isn't for everybody. Mm-hmm. Like how many people are on pharmaceutical drugs? SSRIs benzos Ritalin Adderall, whatever you name it. Mm-hmm. I'm not a scientist here. I'm enthusiast But I'm gonna view this from Occam's razors like just basic perception I Don't know if that's a good idea that you should be doing psychedelics while you're on these pharmaceutical drugs Right, you know what I mean? Yeah, I agree most people maybe and I think that way, you know, I mean, so it's like we There should be precautions let me put it that way. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure and I think we actually understand the like neurochemistry of certain psychedelics pretty well like LSD has been studied extensively by like people like David Nichols who is brilliant and he's like, yeah, I'm kind of a fanboy He's awesome. He's so smart. And he's where's he in the States? Yeah, and he's kind of I think he's retired already But his son Charles Nichols is still doing work So I'm going to a conference this weekend that he's organizing. That's just like on psychedelics by scientists for so cool I've never been to one of these every conference I go to is like, you know, half scientists half everyone else. Yeah So yeah, I'm pretty pretty stoked