 of a marking on the drive. We were like, this is why we can't leave California. This drive alone. We, years ago, we went camping at the campground by Ventana and the Ventana Inn. Yeah, and so my daughter and I decided to hop on over to the Ventana Inn for massaging. Good for you. This is the way to camp. Absolutely. Hey, Lisa. Hi, how are you? I'm good. All right, I'm good. Good. You're good. Where is everybody? Is there all I'm gonna grab a glass of water? I will say that I did the opposite of your 10-mile hike and sat in sweatpants and ate everything in sight. So maybe I need to get on that. That sounds nice. That's right. It's all a balance. Are you enjoying? That's right. Oh, okay. Hola, Prof. Hola. Chair Kiefer. Hey, friend. Chair Kiefer. Hi, Eloni. Hi. So just a heads up. We are waiting for Ann. Oh, it looks like she just got one. Great. I also believe Kevin Becerra should be in viewing mode currently. Oh, yes. Waiting to join us. Yes, thank you. Ann, can you do an audio and video chat? Awesome. Thank you. Great. Are we waiting on any other members before starting our meeting? Nathanson. If we have a quorum, we can get started. And we have one to, I think we can, right? Yeah, we have four. We have four. All right. In a timely manner, I will get started with our meeting today. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the November 29th special meeting of the Art and Public Places Committee. Pursuant to government code section 54953E in recommendation of the Health Officer of the County of Sonoma, Art and Public Places meeting, sorry, Art and Public Places Committee members will be participating in this special meeting via Zoom webinar. Members of the public can participate in the meeting via Zoom or by calling in. Lonnie, will you please let our members of the public know how they can participate in today's meeting? Yes, if you're a member of the public wishing to make a public comment, you can do so by pressing the raise your hand icon at the bottom of your Zoom screen. And if you're calling in, you can press star nine. Great, thank you. And to do our call to order, great. And moving on, I'd like to do our roll call. Lonnie, if you could do a roll call for our committee today. Absolutely, let the record reflect that all members are present with the exception of Board Member Nathanson and Board Member Sayers. Great. And since this is a special meeting, do I need to do public comment, ask the public comment before our scheduled items? No, since this is a special meeting, we're just focusing on the scheduled items today. Great, thanks for the clarification. So, jeez, I can't even remember his name. Are we missing a Board Member, not Nathanson? Yeah, Jeff, Nathan and Bob are all not present. Okay, thank you. But we can continue with the meeting since there are four Board Members present. Yes. All right, with that, I will move to item three, scheduled items, 3.1. We have workshop number three, community-based participatory research presented by the Kinzen creative team. This is the third in a series of workshops that build on the introductory presentation by the city's equity officer with a more specific lens towards the arts sector. The Kinzen creative team will lead and facilitate a discussion about community-based participatory research with a presentation from on the margins. We'll now hand it over to Tara to introduce our presenter today. Oh, thank you so much, Kristen, and welcome everyone. I know you all know Nico and Kevin and they don't need, well, they always need amazing introductions, but you do know them, so I won't go into too much detail. It's a pleasure to have them back doing the third workshop professional development with you all in the series that we've been working on. So today I will just turn it right over to Nico and Kevin, let them introduce their guest, and I am hoping I'll be able to share my screen in just a minute or Lonnie, as I'm not sure, but we'll have your presentation up in just a second. Cool, hi. So welcome, welcome, we are here. Number three, we are building, Chair Kiefer, I love the way your intro had, like all my talking points built into it, which means I'm gonna go through mine super fast. So I know we've talked about this, but for the sake of continuity, I just wanna point out that, so we started with PD-1, Lindsay Roberts-Green, taking diversity, equity, inclusion, access and belonging, and putting them through the lens of the arts, thinking about our affinity bias, thinking about how we make decisions and how everything we do can be an opportunity to reinvestigate, are we doing this in a way that is diverse, in a way that is equitable, in a way that there's access and inclusion, and that people feel that they belong. And then we had our last professional development with the artists, where they were so candid and generous, letting us know how much work they do at every single step along the way to make their art happen for the communities that we serve. We learned about the struggles to find space and the struggle to find resources and how, in spite of all of it, they make these incredible events happen and they still have these dreams that they are manifesting that are happening and benefiting our communities. Then we had a little bit of time to reflect on that. So we are here now to think about the other kind of constituency that we serve, which is the larger public. We've talked a lot about artists in the art sector and now we're gonna focus a little bit on how we engage responsibly and enthusiastically and respectfully with community as we are making the decisions that we're making as we're supporting the artists who we support. And we are so, so, so fortunate to have with us Danny Dominguez and I want to pass it to Nico to do the intro to Danny. Awesome. Hi, y'all. Happy Tuesday. Hope everybody is in some sweatpants but with a fancy top post, a good week of hopefully eating family and friends. My name is Nico Kimms and I'm the founder and lead consultant of McKimms and Creative and it is my joy and pleasure to introduce a collaborator of ours at Kimms and Creative, Dr. Daniela Dominguez, Danny with that slick back ponytail. Come on, that bun. Danny is a psychologist, a professor and a fun Nina. Little, some facts about Danny. Danny is born and raised in Mexico. He's a lover of basketball and soccer. He's a fierce assistant professor at the University of San Francisco. He's a lover of Inca and Cholo's Quinklet Dogs which is the hairless dog. So pass it over to Danny and Tara just so you know, I believe Danny is ready to screen share and we'll guide that presentation herself if that's possible to our screen share. Great, can you all see my slides? Thank you for that lovely introduction, friend. Love it, it feels so fancy, you know? Yeah, you can see. Thank you. All right, y'all. So let's go ahead and get started as you can see and as Nico mentioned, I am an assistant professor at the University of San Francisco but I also have the unique privilege of being able to be engaged with the Sonoma County community as a licensed psychologist. So I have the honor of being able to provide individual counseling, couples counseling, group counseling to our community since Sonoma County. And so today I'm coming in with my researcher hat on but also all of that experience is informed by my role as a licensed psychologist. And so we'll go ahead and tell you a little bit more in just a second but let's go ahead and get started right now just by kind of introducing you to some of the works that I have already done in the community. My office is in San Francisco but I work in Sonoma County full-time. So I'm familiar with the area, I'm familiar with the region and some of the social, cultural and political stressors that our communities are facing. And so I would love to encourage you to at any point in time, you can raise your hand, raise your digital hand and ask any questions you might have. So I'm gonna do a little bit of didactic work but I'm also going to infuse the didactic work with a case study that I will be presenting and I will be able to serve as a consultant. So if you are in the process of thinking through how you would like to conduct your research, please feel free to ask any questions. You can stop me, you can let me know in the chat box and I'll go ahead and come right over to you. So let me switch this over here, bring in my chat box. So before we get started, if I could just have you all introduce yourselves by sharing your, the name you would like for me to use today and then also if you feel comfortable your pronouns as well, please let me know in the chat box please, is there a chat box friend? I'm sorry to interrupt Danny, thank you. However, I think we have to disable the chat box when we have a public meeting. So Lonnie, if you could confirm that but I believe that's our process. Yes, that is correct. Got it. Okay, well, just if I come to you I might ask you to share the name that you would like for me to use and then also pronouns, sounds good. All right, so let's go ahead and get started. I wanna share a little bit more about my experience in conducting research. So at the University of San Francisco as an academic of course I'm asked by the institution to conduct research and to publish. But initially when I first started Marvel as a professor I wasn't sure that research was for me. I felt like research was really sterile. I had wrong ideas about what research needed to look like. I imagined myself I think wearing like a lab coat and really thinking about how to control specific variables. And I didn't necessarily know that research could be conducted in a way that was fun, that was colorful, rich, and also culturally responsive. And so today I'm going to talk a little bit about the work that I have done specifically in Sonoma County. You could also look me up at my researcher website which you can just Google Daniela Dominguez and all of my other articles are there. But today I'm gonna talk about the investigations that I've done within our specific region. So as far as the work that I have done in the past three years, I conducted some studies, a couple of studies in Sonoma Valley. One is called Finding Positive Health in Fortalezas en Comunidad. And it's a case study in Sonoma Valley that really explored what are the unique assets, the strengths and resources that the Latinx community in Sonoma Valley possesses that allows it to overcome socio-cultural and political stressors. That emerged as a result of the fires, as a result of anti-immigrant sentiments, pre-migration trauma, post-migration trauma. And we've been able to wrap up that study. There's a report also online through the Hanna Institute that you can check out so that you can know a little bit more about the work that I do. Then I also conducted another study in Sonoma Valley which is called Sueños de Sonoma. And that study was a little bit different and it focused on really understanding the Latinx community's desired vision of the future. What are their hopes? What are their dreams? What are they looking forward to? And then right now, I am conducting a study in Cloverdale in Northern Sonoma County. And I haven't concluded, I haven't finished that particular study, but I will be using it as a case study today so that we can work on it together, okay? So that's a little bit about my experience and all of these three research studies are community-based in nature, specifically community-based participatory research. And so to get a sense of where you are all at and what your experience with research has been, I was wondering if you could raise your hand if you have participated in research in the past. Just participated, a research participant. Maybe you have completed a survey. Maybe you have, okay, I see board member Jeff. Okay, thank you all. Remember, wonderful, thank you all. So a lot of you. Now raise your hand if you have conducted research in the past, not participated, but actually been the investigator or one of the investigators, okay? There are a couple of folks in the room. Now raise your hand if you have used community-based participatory research in your career. Okay, so we have few folks who are familiar with the research. So please feel free to also chime in and add any suggestions or recommendations for the rest of us as we're learning about this particular methodology. Okay, we're now gonna go deeper into what CBPR is. The agenda for today is I'm going to define community-based participatory research, and I'm going to share some of my experiences as a researcher using CBPR in Cloverdale, okay? But before we even go into details about what CBPR is, we first have to understand what research is all about. As we use that word, we throw it out all the time, but what is research? So research is the process of creating new knowledge, as simple as that. Research is the process of creating new knowledge, and research studies aim to answer a question or questions. So as you've been working together, maybe there have been times in which the dialogue has taken you to a place where you're like, you know what? I don't know if we know answers to this question. What are some of the questions that you all have had that you have wanted to explore? Perhaps that is a question view that you would like to answer through research. So research aims to answer a question or questions. So for example, in a couple of the research studies that I've done, specifically the one in Sonoma Valley, I explored the strengths and resources that the Latinx community has. And the reason why I did that wasn't just because I, as a researcher, wanted to know more about the strengths and resources in that particular area, although it's very interesting, that was a response to a particular need and an interest that a couple of the organizations had in that region, which is a unique trait, a unique characteristic of CBPR, which we'll talk about in just a second. So research aims to answer a question or questions. So the answers to these questions also depend on what kind of researcher you are, what kind of methodology you use. So specifically for today, we'll focus on CBPR. But I want us to walk through the research steps that investigators often take before they publish a report or before they actually fund a program or publish an article. So the process of engaging research generally involves six steps. First is the creation of a question. So for example, Nico and I are currently working on a project where we're trying to answer, how should we invest $500,000 in Sonoma County to support local artists and culture workers? So first is a creation of a question. What questions do you have at this moment in time that you would want to answer? Okay, that's the first step. What do you want to know? What does your committee want to know? So you've all been doing a lot of work, you probably have been rolling up your sleeves. What question are you trying to answer in this moment at this time? Then the second step is the method. How will you actually answer that question? Once you've identified the question that you're hoping to answer, you need to figure out what kind of steps do I need to take to make sure that I actually answer the question. So is this going to be research that will be conducted in the lab? Is this going to be a research that will happen on the streets in the community? Is it quantitative research, where the data that the study's going to spit out are numbers and charts? Or is that a qualitative study? Are you trying to collect stories or testimonials? What is the method that you want to use? What is the type of data that you want to collect? And then the third step is the data collection process, which involves actually using tools to be able to gather information. So it could be individual interviews, focus groups, surveys, community forums. Is there anything that you've used in the past in terms of data collection tools that you would like to bring forward? So we have individual interviews, focus groups, community forums, surveys. Anything else? Some of you have conducted research in the past. How have you gathered information? I've used surveys previously and surveys and interviews. Okay. And had those interviews been individual interviews or group interviews? Individual interviews, not focus groups, but just individual conversations. Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing. Depending on the tool that you're using, I would imagine that the information that you collected from surveys was different from the information that you collected from those individual interviews, right? So depending on your research question, that's going to determine the method that you want to use and then the method's going to determine the tools that you want to use. And I'll walk you through the case study right now just to make sure that we kind of put this into practice. But I just want you to start thinking about what questions are emerging for you? In your current role right now in this committee, what are some questions that are coming up? Questions that you want to see answered to support the community. And then the next step is the analysis process. So the analysis process is simply figuring out what do these answers mean? When I look at all of the data, what does the data actually tell me? Then there's of course the dissemination, you've analyzed the data, you publish a report, you go to a community forum, you share it out, right? And ideally, after you disseminate that data, there's action. And here's where we get stuck usually as academics. I know a lot of colleagues and I've done this myself, where we conduct research, we collect that data, we conduct surveys, we do our individual interviews or focus groups and then it says I have been signed out because my account is signed from another device. Can you still hear me? Okay, maybe that's a little mistake. So once you collect all the data, for some academics what happens is they publish an article and then it sits at the library. So ideally what we want to make sure we do is that the data that we collect that we analyze that it is disseminated widely and that it actually results in action. Does that make sense? So these are the research steps. Okay, so I want you for a minute to reflect on these next questions, right? So here's where I really need a little bit of audience participation. I just want you to reflect on, to critically think on, when was the last time that you participated in a research study? If your inbox is anything like mine, you have probably received index cards from your local community or surveys. When was the last time you participated in a research study? Just think about that. I want you to also think about what was the researcher like? The developers of that instrument that was sent out to you or that survey, what was that researcher like? Did you meet the primary researcher or did you only have access to the instrument? I also want you to think about what was your role as a participant? What were you being asked to do? Is was it just bubbling things in? Was it answering qualitatively, having like handwritten responses, typing things out, recording something, drawing something? What was your role as a participant? And then what benefits did you get out of your participation? What benefits did you get while you were answering the questions and then afterwards? What action was taken after you concluded, after you completed the survey or the instrument? And the last question is, what were your experiences like? Were they positive? Did you have a good time? Was there joy involved? Was it a colorful research study or rich research study? Were they negative? Was it harmful or re-traumatizing? Or was it simply, meh, you know, like I just ran through it really quickly. I don't know where that ended. It was blend. I feel neutral about it. So just have the wheels turn, think critically about what your experiences have been with the research. And whenever you're thinking about conducting a research study, create a bridge between that experience and what you wanna do next. Because if your experiences were meh, we don't wanna be there. If your experiences were negative or re-traumatizing, that's very harmful. What we wanna make sure we do is that the experiences of our participants are positive, that they're rich, that they're colorful, and that they lead to action and social transformation. That's really the goal, right? Any questions so far before we jump into definitions and what CDPR looks like or comments? Okay, all right, perfect. So let's go a little deeper. So we know that research can be a little boring. That's at least what I thought, but it doesn't always have to be that way. It can be boring and it can be cold and sterile when we're focusing on transactional interactions. So what do I mean by transactional? What I mean by transactional is when you don't know who the research is, you don't know who the primary investigator is, and that person is asking you, requesting that you provide them with information, provide them with knowledge, with your responses, with your lived experiences. That can result in exploitation and erosion, the researcher taking something from you. In fact, some scholars talk about that as being recolonization, right? Where someone comes in, dominates, takes information from you and then departs. So transactional relationships, that can make the research not only sterile or painful but harmful over time. There are people that also feel, and this was my experience in Sonoma Valley when I was called to do the first research study, called Fortalezas. When I started going around and asking people what their experiences with previous research was, they would say, well, a researcher from so-and-so university which shall remain anonymous, came, collected information and then departed and we never heard back from them. We don't know what resulted from that. We don't know if there was a study that was published, they just took our data. So that's profiting from the community, which can be very dehumanizing, right? Because basically we are turning people, our community members, our siblings into folks who are just going to give us information. And that can create this connection between the city, between the county and the community. So what we do wanna do is instead of moving into transactional interactions as researchers, is to move into transformative interactions. What we want to do or what we hope to do and what I'm striving to do, and I'm really flawed and Nico will tell you that, but I try to remind myself of that every day. My why, and he always starts his presentation with what is, you know, what his why is to uplift the human spirit, is that correct friend? To uplift the human spirit. My why is to be an ongoing pursuit of liberation. And so for me to be an ongoing pursuit of liberation, I have to think about how can I be in right relationship to the communities that I wanna radically love with the communities that are around me. And so that extends not only to my work as therapist, but also my work as researcher. If I am engaging in conversation with a community, I wanna make sure that those conversations in some ways are nurturing. In some ways are cultivating a deeper relationship. That I am accountable. If I say I'm gonna be there at La Luz Center to collect data at nine, I'm gonna be there at 830 or 845, that I'm accountable, that I show up, that I come through. It also requires investment. Making sure that you see yourself as being a part of that community, at least temporarily, without appropriating, right? Without saying I'm from this community, but for you to see yourself as part of that community, long-term, over time. And all of this humanized relationships and leads to connection, that's what we wanna do. This is the space where we want to exist as researchers. We wanna be transformative and we wanna be relational. So now we're going to go into CBPR, which I would argue and propose that CBPR, when it's done right, is deeply transformative. If it's transsectional in nature, it is not CBPR. So community-based participatory research encourages engagement and full participation of community partners in every aspect of the research process. From the question that you identify, the answer that you already have in your mind, whatever question popped up for you when I asked, what research question would you wanna have answered? You would want to involve the community from that very, very early stage, from that question to dissemination and action. So CBPR is deeply embedded in community. It is not about the researcher. It's not investigator-driven. It is completely community-driven. Okay, any questions about this? Now, if there is little or no relationship between the researcher and the community, it is not CBPR. CBPR does not conduct research on people or use the community as a laboratory. It conducts research with people. So you're not walking in front of your participants or behind your participants. You're walking with your participants. You are just one of the researchers. The community is a co-researcher. So how can you turn your community members into co-researchers? Perhaps as using a culturally humble approach, asking more questions, starting to form relationships with community partners in the areas that you want to be doing research in. So this is a definition of CBPR. It just encourages engagement and full participation from community partners in every aspect of the research process. How did I come to CBPR? Before CBPR, I was conducting a lot of testimonial research. And testimonial research is basically the type of methodology where you're basically asking folks to tell you their story, to tell you their testimonial. And I started conducting testimonial research because I was doing a lot of work in the Mexico-US borders, specifically in Matamoros with refugees and asylum seekers. And in order for me not to ask a lot of questions that were intrusive or that would profit or that would fool from people, I wanted to use an approach that took a non-expert stance where I would just listen to folks. But it became clear that conducting testimonial research with very large samples would have been very difficult. So the type of research that I wanted to conduct in Sonoma County, I needed a methodology that would allow me to put community first, be culturally humble, but also be able to collect more data over time. And I found CBPR because I write about feminism and CBPR has its roots in feminist theory and community organizing. And Nico knows, Nico is a community organizer, I also identify as a community organizer. We recognize that feminist theory and community organizing is about creating conditions of empowerment or communities on the margins, but that this has to result in community action for social change. And so when I learned that CBPR existed at the intersection of feminist theory and community organizing, I was like, this is it. I wanna know more. So I began to do more studying and ended up collaborating with a few people at the University of San Francisco and went deep into it. And here are some of the reasons why I really like CBPR. So there's probably already, or there have been some problems that you've already identified within your local region. Maybe you've already conducted research and it hasn't gone the way you expected, or maybe you didn't necessarily collect the data you were hoping for. What's really cool about CBPR is that the community identifies the problem. They're the ones who make the call or you make the call and your prompt is very general. You might wanna ask about what are the needs in a very broad way or what are the assets? But you don't come in already with an established agenda. The community defines the problem and you work with the community to identify what that problem is. You flesh it out with them. So community-based participatory research is, again, being with the community, having the community as school partners and then working together to figure out a way to build community capacity. The last aspect that I really appreciated was that what happens, and we've seen this also, I think, in our county, is that a lot of the research studies are not accessible to folks. Some of them are public, some of the reports are online. Like the Portrait of Sonoma is a great example of you click it, you download it, it's public. A lot of the research studies sit in journals that cost money, where you need tech, you need internet to access them. With community-based participatory action research, the data is actually owned by you as the investigator and the community. So you all own the raw data. So it's not like you can leave, you can depart and then leave the community behind. Again, from the research question, all the way to the publication, all of y'all are sharing information. Questions, comments, responses, reactions. When you say that the data is owned by the community and the researcher, what type of publications do you mostly see for how that research body is materialized? How does it come about as the final product then when it is being shared and what tools do you think are really needed in order to make sure that that's equitable? That's a great question. I usually give them all of the data and of course it's you want to de-identify whenever you as a primary investigator, you have to be very thoughtful about the fact that sometimes communities are small and even if they're not small, there can be identifying information where there could be a confidentiality breach. So what you want to do is de-identify all of the information, you could use IDs and then once everything's de-identified and there's no risk, I do give the community the raw data, which in I think all three cases, they didn't necessarily ask for the raw data or felt like that raw data was helpful, but what they really wanted was a PDF and the PDF I made publicly available, it's for example on the on the margins website and it's also available on my academic profile and I gave them the link and I said, please feel free to disseminate this report quietly. Before you get to the point where you publish the report with community-based research you want to have community forums where you check in with them about what you found, what were the results of, so after your data analysis, what were the answers to your questions? And then you want to ask, did I get all of this information right? Is there anything that I missed? Is there anything that you all would like to add right now? So there are opportunities for people to give more input and then you can adjust it before you publish it. So the published product needs to be one that the community signs off on. Does that make sense? Perfect. Thank you. And I believe there were more questions. I have a question. Yes. You can go ahead Ann. Okay. My question was about time and timeline and how long it takes for you to earn the trust and recognition and place making that allows you to have that position you're taking and source the data you want from people. Like is there a plan for that part too? Or do you have an entry point that's more official that allows that to kind of go quickly? That is a really good question. I think the reality is that I don't know if a lot of CBPR researchers, there are a few in the area that I'm in relationship with. We're fantastic. But even if they have CBPR experience they might not be from the local area that's requesting the research study. And so what we wanna make sure that we do is that again you take a non-expert stance or a really culturally humble approach and that you start with key stakeholders. So folks that you know, organizations that you know are respected in the community have a good reputation or even leaders in the community. So for example, with my first research study in Sonoma Valley, I knew that the request was to study the Latinx community. So in Sonoma Valley, doing my research asking the community around they said La Luz Center and Nuestra Voz. So I went to La Luz Center, I went to Nuestra Voz and I said, hey, there has been the request for this study. What do you think? Is this something that you think would be helpful to the community? Who do you think we should interview? And then it kind of becomes a snowball effect, right? So you don't necessarily have to have a deep long-term relationship with the community that you want to study, as long as you connect with folks who already have that existing relationship. That's interesting. Yeah, thank you, it's helpful. Thank you, that's a great question. Anyone else? My question was very closely related to Anne's about how to connect with the community and I guess like if the community is identifying the problem, how do you identify the community that's going to identify the problem? Or how do you know where to start? All amazing questions. So the beautiful thing about work that, and we talk a lot about like ancestors and people really doing the work. The beautiful thing about people who have already done the work is that they've kind of have paved the way. So there are already reports and existing data that let us know where the margins in Sonoma County are. Whether it's life expectancy or salary or social determinants of health, people know who's struggling and what are those regions. And so that's actually why our organization is called on the margins because the work needs to start with those who have been like disproportionately under-resourced or who are underserved or marginalized. And so you can start there by establishing like a radius. What's the community that you wanna focus on? What's the population of interest that you have? And then making those calls, making the calls to the organizations that are known in that area for having a good reputation for being in right relationship with communities there. Great question. Any other questions? Okay. All right. So we talked a little bit about these research steps. So now we're gonna go into a little bit of the case study that I have been doing in Cloverdale. And let me give you a little bit of the origin story so that you can kind of get a sense of how a CVPR study can go down. So I received a call from the Health Care Foundation of Northern Sonoma County who said, we want to be of support. We understand that there are needs in the Cloverdale community, the research is out there. But we just don't know necessarily how to go about collecting that data. And we've heard that you've done CVPR. So they called and I said, I've never been to Cloverdale. I don't know what that community is like. Don't know what the population is. But let me do my research. Let me make some calls. And more importantly, who do you know in that area that I can call and connect with? So the Health Care Foundation said, you need to connect with nuestra comunidad, la familia sana and Alexander Valley Healthcare. So those were the first three phone calls that I made. And I asked them the question. I said, there is this information out there that the Cloverdale community has needs. But there isn't necessarily like a tangible answer about what to do about addressing those needs. What do you all think? So they basically gave me the research question. What they wanted to know was if there were to be or if there was investment in the Cloverdale area, what should they invest in? That could result in positive health. So that was a question. We wanna make sure that the folks are healthy. We wanna make sure that they're taking care of themselves. We know that maybe they want to take care of themselves but that the resources are not readily available. So how can we support them? And so we basically created a collective. That was the first step. I said, I'm not from the Cloverdale community. I don't wanna be a savior. I don't wanna recolonize. Who needs to be at the table? Who do we need to invite? And between all of them, they said, okay, this person, this person, this person, this person, this person. So we sat down and I said, what do you think it's the easiest way for us to reach out to people? And when you say Cloverdale, what are we talking about? Is it just the city of Cloverdale? Is it the surrounding communities who actually needs to be a part of the study? And then we have started collecting data and I'll tell you a little bit about the data that we have collected and how we managed to get our hands on it. Analysis, dissemination and action. So we'll go step by step. So the research question was when we fleshed it out at that table and the key stakeholders were there, they said what we think and they identified as a population of interest. So they all identified as Latinx and as residents of Cloverdale, they said we wanna make sure that whatever we invest in is gonna be safe, it's gonna be vibrant, green, and that it's gonna be a space of belonging for residents who have not been seen, heard or valued in this area. So we wrote it down, right? So that's the objective. The objective of Nuestra Comunidad Sana, we named it Nuestra Comunidad Sana because it's a collective, so it's a blend of La Familia Sana and Nuestra Comunidad and they came up with that name. So everything that we do from the research question to the name of the collective they come up with, right? I'm just facilitating and I'm asking questions. That was a question, that was the objective. Then we move on to the method, right? How will we answer that question? If we were to invest in a green, safe space of belonging for the Cloverdale community, how do we need to, what do we need to do? What is the research design? And then how will the community know the answers that we found? So the first stage is to define the community. Let me move on to the first stage. So if you're thinking about conducting a CBPR study, you wanna ask yourself, what is the community of interest? Is it Santa Rosa? Is it Roseland? Is it Windsor? What is the community? And if we're talking about specific cities, or unincorporated areas, are we talking about the Latinx community, the black community, migrant populations? So you could go big, you could have a large sample, or you could go small. What is the community of interest? Then how are community leaders identified? Maybe you might not be familiar with that area, but maybe you know someone who could point you in the right direction and then go through that snowball effect that we were talking about. And then at some point in time, the collective that you establish, whoever's sitting at that table, needs to determine what is the inclusion and exclusion criteria? So what do I mean by that? Are we talking about, will children be included? Or will it just be adults? Are, who's gonna be included in the sample? Are elders gonna be included? Are we including Spanish speakers? Are we excluding folks who are non-citizens? Like, who's gonna be a part of the sample? And unfortunately, it does sound a little exclusionary, but we cannot interview everybody who lives in a region. So you're gonna have to determine who is gonna be a part of the sample who's going to be outside. And then what materials will you need? If your community of interest, for example, is the Latinx community. Well, we know that there are bilingual bicultural families, that there are monolingual Spanish speaking communities. What instruments and what materials do you need to have available so that people can actually answer your questions in a way that really represents what's going through their mind, their heart, their body and spirit? Let me pause there. Any questions? How are we doing? This is research, so it's not like a super, like, fun presentation. So please stop me at any point in time. Yeah, just so you know, I'm over here and thank God I'm on mute because I'm over here going, mm, mm, there's so many, like- Okay, perfect. I'm gonna lie to you. This is amazing. It's super informative and super specific and I can totally see, and I'm sure Kevin will walk us through a digestion later of how this really applies, but I think it's lining up perfectly on where we've been in our PDs, so. Perfect, great, great. Just let me know how it can be helpful because I know that you all are doing great work and I wanna make sure that this is aligned with your goals and your desired vision. So then we move into how are standards of fairness applied? If we're thinking about moving from transactional to transformative relationships, we can't just go into the community and say, tell me what a space of belonging, a space that's safe and green, a space where you feel comfortable, tell me all of that information without me compensating you for your time. So I hear that there was a question about like, how long does this take? The thing about CBPR is that it takes time and it takes financial resources if you wanna make sure that it's fair. Because if you want your sample to truly be representative of the community, a lot of our community members work full-time. Some of them have two jobs. Some of them are really busy, so if we're asking them to spend two hours with us or an hour, we wanna make sure that at least we give them a gift card and that we honor their labor. And the last question when you're selecting participants is could this research be harmful to the participants I am considering? So that is a question that we need to make sure that we address. To give you an example, when I was conducting one of my studies at the border, my co-researcher was asking about immigration status and social security. So that's gonna be harmful. If you're asking someone who's an asylum seeker or someone who is undocumented about their immigration status, that could be harmful. So when you are thinking about what questions do you wanna ask, consult and think about what is my community of interest and who is a part of that community that I can run these questions by so that they can say, yes, this is good information. There's no harm being conducted. So here's what we did in Cloverdale. When, and I know it's difficult to see but when you're thinking about moving into a community you also want to have a strategy. So I don't know exactly how you all if you want to conduct to be PR how you would want to move through specific spaces but you do need as with everything a tactic. So if you're thinking about Sonoma County Sonoma County is huge. As you start narrowing down your community of interest let's just say that you end up by saying we wanna focus on Cloverdale. Well, is it the city of Cloverdale? And then you can't interview everybody in the city of Cloverdale but my community of interest is the Latinx community. So what I wanna ask is where can I find the Latinx community within Cloverdale? And then you just start plotting. For this map I worked with a cartographer that sounds really fancy is just someone who creates maps and it's not that expensive. So you could just say I wanna focus on the Roseland community or I wanna focus on the Sonoma Valley community. And within that community I wanna make sure that I ask about this street what's between this street and this street and this street because we wanna create an art installation there. Well, then what you wanna make sure that you do is you start mapping things out so that you know where to go and ask these questions. In the city of Cloverdale once I mapped those specific I plotted those specific areas I needed to make sure that I wasn't the one going out to the community and asking questions because no one knows me. But again, I'm new to the community. So I needed to walk with someone I needed to build a relationship with my key stakeholders and have them walk with me and then also introduce me to people because especially if you're working with under-resourced maybe communities that have been harmed in the past folks are gonna be cautious and will not necessarily give you a comprehensive detailed answer. So you want to have someone next to you who has vetted you that you have a good relationship with who will open that door for you. Any reactions or questions? Just emphasizing what you just said the last part is so important about who we should when we show up in new spaces we are approaching the community that we have identified it's a community we wanna work with and hear from who do we show up with? How do we show up? I just think it's such an important thing to kind of underline. Thank you, Kevin. Yes, absolutely. You wanna make sure that you have folks next to you who could say they're cool. You know, they're all right, they won't harm you. So that's what we needed to do it in Cloverdale that what we did in Sonoma Valley and then what's also really important about this research is in a perfect world, you will not be the only person who was going to be conducting CDPR in Sonoma County long-term. This is because they're your co-researchers you're building capacity. They're paying attention to how you're asking the questions how you're recording those questions how you're analyzing the data with the hopes that next time that there is a question that they wanna have answered they will know where to start and where to end. Okay. So this is again, the study of the CDPR study that we're conducting in Cloverdale we wanna know what is the safe, vibrant, colorful space of belonging look like for the Latinx community. We have been going around but before I actually entered that space I needed to kind of do like a little accountability checklist with myself and I needed to ask is this more about you and building your resume or did you wanna get those grant funds or like did you wanna get paid for this? What is that about? Keeping it completely real, right? Because CDPR takes time and so CDPR can be a little costly. So when the opportunity comes around you're like this sounds like a great contract but is this really what the community means? So when I actually had that research question I needed to check myself and ask is my question actually emanating from community priorities? And then what am I really asking from the community partners? One of my key stakeholder is an incredible leader in the community who was actually just got an award for like best community health worker in the entire region. If my research study is gonna get in the way of her being able to exercise, practice her demands and responsibilities then that's also researcher driven. So what am I really asking from my community partners? Will the results or findings of the study benefit the community? When I publish that report and I go to my graphic designer and I say hey, can you draw this community wellness center that the community has come up with? They said that they want a mural, they said that they want a jardin, a garden that they also want a place where they can learn how to cook and share recipes and ingredients and cook together and be in right relationship. When you draw that, when I present that to them will that be enough? Like what is the dissemination of finding things to look like? Is it a poster with a picture of what that space of belonging looks like? Is it a written report? Because in our culture, we prioritize written text. So what does the community actually want? And what level of responsibility will the community bear? Like once we have those answers, is it up to them to do the fundraising or what am I committing to doing? Once I have those answers, will I also commit to helping them find the funds? And am I in it for the long haul? Will I stick with them? Or will I be done once I complete my deliverables? What is my commitment? And then the reality in our community is things are costly. So will the budget actually support the labor that we're all putting into this? Because every single person in that collective has been compensated. So every time that one of those community health workers goes out with me and introduces me to people, they're getting paid. I'm getting paid, the participants are getting paid. That is ideally how it would be done. Not everybody conducts their CBPR studies in those ways, but if it truly is fair, you wanna make sure that you honor our communities. So in summary for that particular case study, let's go through the research steps. So the question was, what does a safe, vibrant green community space of belonging in Cloverdale look like? And in my mind, I was like, all right, Dana, you've conducted CBPR studies in the past, but is that really the best method for this? Or should it be something different? So we concluded, and this was also in conversation with the collective that CBPR was the way to go because they wanted to be involved. They wanted to be co-researchers. They could also sometimes tell you, we don't have the time. I want this to be researcher-driven. You go ahead, it's all good. But in this particular situation, they wanted to be involved with us. And then the data collection that we use, the tools that we use were, it was canvassing. So we have gone door to door. Of course, not being intrusive, especially with communities that are vulnerable. We go to the doors that the community health workers and the community leaders tell us to go to. We don't wanna scare anybody. So we go to those houses. We've also conducted focus groups. And you wanna conduct, a lot of people right now are moving in the direction. And I see this a lot with the county, no shade. But the county, what they've done is they do community forums. So they will have one person leading the conversation and then people will make public comments, right? And then that is used for record keeping. That works for a lot of people who feel really comfortable using their voice in large spaces, but it doesn't work for people who appreciate and feel more comfortable in intimate environments. And so what I would suggest is that when you're thinking about the tools and you're consulting with your collective, the key stakeholders, you think about what are a wider variety of tools that you can use that represents the different personalities and the different ways in which people relate. So we decided as a collective that it was canvassing, focus groups for more intimate conversation. Community events are huge. So actually, Nico saw me at one point in time. I was doing a study for the Dia de los Muertos in Sonoma Valley back in the day when we had first met each other. And what I do is I actually reach out to leaders in the community and I say, hey, can you give me a list of like your fiestas, right? The community events where I can find a bunch of people. So I've gone to buy lazos, I've gone to dances, I've gone to Dia de los Muertos. The last one that we went to the Chamber of Commerce, we did, we attended documentaries because what we wanna do is have a sample that is diverse in terms of age and racial background, language. So community events are huge and that's where you can get a lot of your participants. We are going to start doing community forums and then surveys. Surveys are helpful, but think about the last time that you completed a survey. Sometimes I just like run through stuff really quickly and sometimes the information is not accurate. And I see it also with like teaching evaluations and things like that, like how quickly people go through them. So you don't want that just to be the only source of data. And then analysis, like how do you actually, after you've done all of this, canvassing and focus groups and community events, then how do you put all of that information together? How do you digest it, metabolize it to make sense of what the data is telling you? So what I do is I use thematic analysis, which sounds fancy, but it's nothing else other than looking for prevalent themes. So with this particular case study, if I'm asking what is a safe, vibrant space of belonging look like, and they say community garden, Zumba classes, skateboard area, I analyze the data and I look at how many people are saying gardens, how many people are saying murals, how many people are saying cooking classes, what are the prevalent themes? And in my analysis, what I'm trying to figure out are what are the top three things that need to exist within that community wellness center? And then the goal is that once we have all of that information, we will go back to the community and say, this is what we found, is this accurate? Did we miss anything? What should we add? What should we take out? And then just fundraise, fundraise and organize and make sure that it happens. And I am committing to that. And I think that that's the part of like, how far do you want to go into your research? And so if you go with CBPR, I will say that you can, I would go with a group or a team of folks that could carry this work long-term just because it is time consuming. And you don't have to do it. Like if you have the funds, you can find a researcher who does that for you, who goes out to the community. So it all depends again on your time and on your budget. So this is a part of our canvassing. All we did was we created little index cards and we're asking people to complete, to answer this question. What are the three most important things you would want to see in a community wellness center in Cloverdale? We are only asking them their age, their zip code, race of the city and gender. That's it. We don't want to ask them about immigration status. It's like what information do I actually need to make sure that I get enough data that will help support the project? I don't want to bombard people with a bunch of questions. Same thing with a survey, a really long survey will result in fatigue and people will not complete it and then the data will not be accurate. And this is me asking questions in a little focus group. Focus groups have to be really small, you know, eight to 11 people. And that's how I've collected a lot of the data that's much more intimate. Things that maybe folks might not feel comfortable sharing at community events when people are around them or during community forums. And then if I feel like someone is sharing information that's tender, I will pull them aside and ask them individual questions, questions in an individual interview format. And then we have our last slide before I go into questions. And that is what are the challenges with CBPR? Sounds amazing, sounds great, it is fun. So as part of one of our community events which Nico attended because he recorded it, we brought Baila Folclorico, we brought Sumba classes and all of those were our community partners and we had little boxes all around the community event where people could drop that index card answering that question. And so again, it can be fun, it can be rich. You don't necessarily have to be asking them those questions. Some of people you might have to write things down for them because at this moment maybe they can't write it out. But it can be fun. That's a beautiful thing about CBPR. The challenges is that time is needed to build partnerships. Even if you make that call and you say, hey, can you hook me up? Can you introduce me to this person? You still have to do the work. Potential loss of control. There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen. When I do quantitative research, send out the surveys, collect the data, run some analysis and boom, I have my results. This is you're sharing, you're communicating, you're repairing, you're mending. There's a lot of team dynamics that are happening but then you have amazing partners that you can interact with and then people that you can go back to afterwards. There is conflict sometimes. So when you have different key stakeholders who are being compensated, depending on the division of labor and roles and responsibilities, sometimes some organizations might get more funding than others. So sometimes there might be the question of, well, why did they get more funds? And I don't see them doing this or doing that. So you have to have conversations. Ideally, prior to when that happens to say, when we feel like tension is arising, how do we want to come back to each other? What kinds of conversations do we want to have? And then tempers for reporting results may differ. Sometimes there might be challenges that you've experienced. Sometimes maybe you don't get to your sample right away because it's harder for you to access them. So knowing that the timeline might be different. You might start thinking, I'm gonna have a report done by the end of December and it's marked when you still haven't ended. So give yourself some grace time. And then for academics, this is one of those things where a lot of, one of the reasons why people don't conduct CBPR is because while you conduct one CBPR study, you could have like four published manuscripts or it's more value to have a quantitative research study than a CBPR study. Okay. Preguntas. Yes. Wow. Yeah, Cherokee for sorry. I was gonna ask Danny in your experience, what part is your, what part really revs your engine in terms of when you're getting into the writing of the research questions or figuring out the methodology, what part to you really speaks to your brain and wanting to know more about your focus group? Yeah. I think for, I, and obviously with like the blessing of the community, but I think it's really cool to allow yourself to get creative. So again, there can be written texts like those index cards, but I also have like tons of drawings from the community where we don't only say like, tell me the three things that you would want to see in a community of one or center, but we say, can you draw it out? Can you help me see what that looks like? And we seriously like, what we're gonna do is we're gonna do, and I learned this also from my friend, Nico, like doing a gallery walk where we are going to put all of those drawings and say, these are our dreams and bring out a funder and say, look at all of that. These are our dreams. How are we gonna make that happen? So for me, what like really gets me going is to think about what is the best way that I can represent community members within the area that we determined, within that inclusion criteria, that sample that might be having a difficult time using verbal data or written data. So maybe it's drawing or also relying again on the community members to make it as accessible as possible. So with our focus groups, we always have snacks. We, like that's a must. Always snacks, always coffee, always water and always childcare. So if you really want to get to the mamas out there, you want to have childcare. So that is money. But then the people that you get to interview are folks that sometimes can't take the time to join a focus group. So what gets me going is making research as accessible as possible. Thank you. Thank you. Great question. Can I ask a question about you're working in deep relationship with people and community and what happens when things change? Community is always a lot of people, a lot of perspectives. People change their mind, you might be half a through a process and somebody says, you know what? I actually, I know I said this last time, I'm actually not comfortable with that anymore. So how do you, as you're going through this process, stay flexible and responsive to the kind of changing needs of the partners you're working with? That's a great, great, great question. This happened with one of my clients, also CBPR, where one of the agreements was that to get a better sense of what the organizational was going through, that it would have been, that it was going to be helpful to interview board members because they were holding power and that it would have been helpful for us to get to know what was going through their minds and why decisions were being made the way they were. And halfway through the research study, team dynamics happened and they were like, you can't interview the board anymore. And so I think it's, you have to be super humble and say, and trust that the organization at that point in time knows what's best for their organization or for their community. And of course you wanna ask questions and it is okay to say, I wonder if we could do this or I wonder if we could do that, but with a tone of voice that invites them to also set boundaries and say, no, I actually think that at this point in time you can't have access to our board members. And then you want to always preserve that relationship. So as your co-researchers, you're sharing that relationship and you also wanna make sure that your time is being respected but you don't wanna be extractive. You don't wanna take control. It's one of those situations where you have to be mindful of power with instead of power over and be mindful of power imbalances. Just because you're already seen as a researcher then it itself gives you in some situations, credentialed knowledge or more power. And so you want to do whatever you can to make sure that you take that one down stance. That's why when I conduct research and this is just me, a lot of people are attached to the letters after their names and they should be but I'm not Dr. Dominguez, I'm Danny. Like when I'm out in community, it's Danny. And then that way it's, we try to kind of make sure that it's as flat as possible. That hierarchy is as flat as possible. Question Kevin. I have a question. When you're out there doing questionnaires, how do you compensate? I mean, I know like little gift certificates or something but if you're doing a lot of questionnaires, I mean, if you have a lot of people you're seeking questionnaires from, what is appropriate for compensation? It depends on really how much work they're doing. If a lot of the partners that I have work for organizations who are part of the collective so they're actually getting paid by the organization. So the organization gets grants and then the organization will pay the employee. In situations where I'm not partnering with an organization and I'm specifically working with, let's just say a community health worker, I'm mindful of like an hourly rate that is thoughtful and fair. And in situations for example, where I'm working with individuals where maybe documentation is an issue. Maybe they're undocumented. We just wanna make sure that they understand that once they go past $600 that then we would have to get a W-9. And so just having those conversations that way but I would say for like a focus group right now participants are getting the key stakeholders, the participants are getting $25. If it was up to me it would be more but they're getting $25 and it's a Visa gift card so they can use it for different things. And what I've heard is that that's usually what a lot of other researchers are doing and each focus group is about an hour and 30 minutes. So that's not enough but it's something that they're told they will receive before they participate. And then we just wanna make sure that if we're documenting again for grant purposes who's getting those good certificates to make sure that things are fair as well. Hi, Lisa, I can also chime in that just for perspective the process that we worked with the community through our strategic planning process involved some of what we're talking about here and we did pair the participants that did focus groups and one-on-one interviews. I think it was $40 gift cards for their time. So yeah. That's way more fair. Okay, great, thank you. I had another question, Danny. I'm really fascinated and intrigued by your talk about humility and down kind of level attitudes and positioning yourself around people. If you were imagining yourself advising a group of people that you weren't leading in person, how would you advise that that kind of accountability happens within the group that's running the research and those kind of skills, soft skills, whatever you call them are learned? Because I don't think it's normal that everyone has them. No, yeah. That's a really good question. So so far, I've been lucky and that I have been a part of all conversations and so I've been a part of all focus groups but I know that there will be a point in time in which that won't be the case just because it's for sustainability reasons. I do think that training is important. So those soft skills, I call them micro skills I call them micro skills and we do do a very broad type of training but it's not detailed enough. For example, we just say we talk about people when they're talking to others about remaining curious and asking open-ended questions. So we talk about the Ws and the H. When you're talking to someone in the community, you wanna ask what, when, where, who and how. You don't wanna ask close-ended questions. You wanna remain strengths-based focus and you always wanna go back to like, how is this connected to the purpose of the research? Am I getting to the point where I'm actually being nosy or is this connected to the research? So yeah, that's a really good question of training, I would say. If I had funds to train folks to conduct this research, I would make sure that a good chunk of time is spent building those micro skills. Interesting. Thanks, that's really helpful. Thank you. It's time for one more question or maybe we've come to the end of our questions. We have a lot to process. Can I ask a question to them? Please. Now that you've seen the presentation, for those of you who have not conducted CVPR or been a part of CVPR, are you intrigued about potentially conducting a CVPR study or being involved in one? Great, yay, come our way, join the movement. That's amazing. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you so much, Danny. And you can go ahead and stop sharing your screens with these beautiful faces. Yes, there we all are, both sides. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Danny, for such a wonderful presentation, so much. I feel like I was like writing down like the time so I can go back and watch the recording and hear what you said again and unpack a little more. So I was thinking when we were hearing, there's even such direct correlations to what happened with the artist's round table thanks to the way that Nico framed it. There are so many things where even the little step of you all reported back to the artists in the fishbowl, what you heard and they affirmed or added to or complicated what you reflected back. Little practices like this that were coming out of CBPR that we can do not only in the way that we are interacting and learning and researching with our fellow community members but just in how we are running meetings, how we are asking questions, what do forms look like? I love the emphasis on things being bright and fun and joyful. Every time I get an airline survey, it is not bright, it is not fun, it is not joyful. So I love breaking the trends that we see all around us to kind of live in the world in the way that we intend to. So thank you so much, Danny, for giving us these tools. We will build on these tools as you all may have expected. In our fourth PD, it will be just us goyals, it'll be just the family, no guests and we will be diving into these tools that we learned today and how we might put them into action in the APPC's work. So it's gonna be me and Nico and we're gonna really dive in. So come with lots of ideas, I'm ready to talk because we're gonna need you to. And that will be on December 13th, same time from 4 to 5.30. So December 13th, 4 to 5.30, we will be here in the Zoom room, diving deep into how to put these ideas into action, bringing back the EIA, bringing back the dreams we heard of the artists and thinking about how we are centering community as we move forward. And then also you have received an email from me about sitting up a one-on-one meeting between now and then. I've heard back from many of you. Thank you so much if I've already heard from you. If not, please find a time to connect or really look forward to having some one-on-one time with each of you. Quick 30 minute calls, it'll be painless, I promise. And with that, unless there's anything you wanna add, Nico, I think we have reached our end. Now, I just wanna say a huge, as you can tell, the brilliant, the genius, Danny Dominguez here with us, sharing knowledge. And Danny and I have been such great friends and collaborators on what does the intersection of how this represents community and how we use art as forms and means of data collection, but also relaying back and communicating back strengths, dreams, hopes of community. So there's a great kind of intersection of this research, this capturing the dreams, uplifting dreams that I think perfectly lies within this committee's kind of responsibilities. So I'm excited to see how that takes shape. And I hope you were all leaving today with Danny Slade. I'm over here doing like, I'm doing like by like, amen, hums. And then I'm also writing down all these bullet points and the greatest one I'm taking away with is that CBPR does not conduct research on community, but with community. And I think learning that muscle of how this committee does that best with community is gonna be the work that we're really gonna focus on. And so I just want to thank you for this incredible roadmap. And everybody has these slides that we're setting out in the agenda as well. And I will be going through each one of those steps as a filter for my kind of processing. And I encourage you to save those and do that as well. But just another kind of thank you to Danny. Thank you to Kevin for organizing and working with Danny to specify how this might benefit the committee specifically. But yeah, just thanks for having us. I'm excited for the next BD. Thank you, Danny. Really appreciate it. You gave us a lot of information to think about, to use, to consider, to, it was just, there was a lot there and a lot of good information. Sorry, we weren't asking, I wasn't asking that many questions just because there was so much to think about. I will echo that sentiment. And Nico, I'm glad you just mentioned what you did a moment ago about conducting a study with community. I'm a museum director, come from an academic background. The kind of research that I've been trained to do and I've conducted is generally very different than what Danny was describing. And this is extremely informational and useful. Thank you. Great, well, thank you, Kinsome Creative for organizing and thank you Danny Dominguez for that great presentation and very thoughtful food for thought really gave us a lot to chew on. And I will, at Nico's recommendation, be going back through the slides as I think about how to integrate into our future conversations and how to position ourselves to be non... Oh dear, I think Kristen got frozen there. Can everyone else hear me? Yeah, okay. Empowering our community members. I think my internet has cut out. Oh, can you all hear me? Yeah, you're back now. Oh, okay. I was just thanking everyone for great thoughtful presentation today and facilitation. And... Shoot. Well, I'm sure she'll pop right back here in a second. We do need to... Calling the meeting to a close. Yes, Kristen, before you close the meeting, we do need to just, as a formality, ask for any public comments on this item if there are any. I don't believe we have any callers, but please, please go ahead. Okay. Lonnie, if you could let us know if we have any public comments regarding this item. We do not have any email or voicemail, and it doesn't look like we have any members of the public. Great, thanks for looping us back in. With that, I will close this evening's meeting. Thank you, everyone, and we will resume later. Reminder to everyone to get back to those emails from Kevin and schedule your meeting time. So, thank you, and we'll see you guys. Our next regular scheduled meeting is the 5th of December, and this next special meeting will be on the 13th of December. Great. Thank you, everyone. Good night. Thank you so much. Have a good night.