 And you're welcome back to the Breakfast and Plus TV Africa. A final conversation this morning has taken us back to Kaduna State, the place where you know we had lots of protests a few weeks ago over the NLC sack of its members and now the NLC are protesting over the sack of 16 lecturers and two members of the non-academic staff in schools in the state and we've invited an education consultant Mr. Yomni Fawemi. Good morning, thank you for joining us. Good morning, thanks for having me. Good morning. All right, this discussion is very controversial because it's Labour versus the Kaduna State government once more, but this time around in the educational sector. Now Labour in Kaduna State is saying that the Kaduna State Governor has no rights, no jurisdiction, even as visitor of the school to actually sack or fire any lecturer. Let's begin with that. Does he have a right to do so? Yeah, so I mean the general law, the general rule guiding the giant university is the fact that it is the council of the university that can sack, not the visitor. The role of a visitor is essentially ceremonial financing, so the responsibility for sacking life of the council, not to the vice-councillor, not to the pro-councillor, but the council sitting together after it has gone through the process. So one, the visitor cannot sack. And again, what also makes this a big difference is the fact that when the program between NLC and the Kaduna State government and the federal ministry of government, there was an MOU that was signed, and actually part of the agreement in the MOU is that nobody will be punished for any act. And that's a standard thing after every distraction. Unions always say you can't punish and you sign it. So why do you go back to renew your worth upon it? So beyond the legal issues, there's also the moral issue. You sign something, a couple of weeks back, and you're going against it. Okay, you mentioned something there. You said you used the word due process. So when we look at this situation, we see NLC bringing our facts to say that these lecturers that were sacked, they were never queried, they never faced any disciplinary committee, they were just arbitrarily dismissed from office. I mean, why should that be? Yeah, I really can't explain it. This is an establishment law in Nigeria, and based on a plethora of positions, you can't sack an employee in Nigeria without following process. You must follow the process as you have defined in your staff and book. That university has a staff and book that has a disneyed process. There has an escalation process for discipline. There has rules and response rates for which to discipline. So if you violate your own university policies and process, there you can see you have not the right thing. The university has a right to sack any employee. I mean, the law has also established that you can't force an unwilling employee on an employer. You can't also force an unwilling employer on an employee, but you must use due process. If you refuse to use due process, they're just wasting your time. Those employees will have a right to approach Nigeria industrial cost. And it is a slam-dome case because they have not been, they have not, the due process was not used in this process of termination of a point. Well, you know, it seems a little, you know, dictatorial to just fire people that way. And how does it sound, you know, that people will be fired for simply protesting, which they also have a right to, to protest? What does that look like for Cardona State? And it doesn't seem like a lot was learned from the last protest. Did you say it sounds dictatorial, you're referring to Governor Ruffa? I thought I should do something between those two names, right? I mean, he has developed a character of being dictatorial. I mean, let's say that Governor Ruffa is one of the finest governors we have on the point of view of project execution. That man has a vision, he knows what he wants, but his methods usually doesn't work well. I mean, if employees by law have a right to protest, employees by law have a right, unions have a right to act as members to go and protest after the following process in informing people what it wants to do. And that has happened in the case of Cardona State. Also, the Cardona State government has also signed a name where you're saying I will not punish anybody for participating in that strike. Also, the laws of the land, the court decisions have also said if you want to start any employee, you have followed due process as enshrined in your company organization. So on those three legs that can make any table to stand, the government of Cardona State that would not have done the right thing if they violated all those three and go ahead. It's not been just been actually also taking an illegal act. So if you're a dictatorial because you were doing something that is right and is legal, it's even different. But here, you're committing a crime, you're violating laws. So beyond the challenge of being a dictator in a democracy, there's also the bigger challenge that you are flouting laws while you're being a dictator. It can be worse than that. I will expect the governor to do the right thing. I mean, Cardona has made a lot of progress in education. I mean, we can't take that away from the governor in the last six years, but you allow things like this to just define your legacy just because you want to score some political points or make a statement. So what hope do workers in Cardona State and maybe now use Cardona State as a point to reflect on the whole country? What hope do Nigerian workers have that their jobs are always safe whenever they decide to join a protest and they would not be fired? Is there any courts? Is there any bodies that can always stand for them and protect them against these tendencies? Okay, one of the biggest legacy of your administration in 1999-2007 was the signing into law of the Niger Industrial Court Act. That is the most significant thing that has happened to labor education in Nigeria since history and that is creating a dedicated court that undoes labor-related issues and that court has been very effective. I mean, they have had some of the finest and most brilliant people who have been president. The current one is Justice Canty, who is an excellent brilliant man. So a Nigerian worker who's right has been breached or who's right has been violated. He has a right to go to the Niger Industrial Court and they are all over the place in Nigeria. We have in Lagos and Pugia, I think in Yeneguwa, maybe like 1914. And it's not just a court for workers and employers and labor issues. It's also a court that has developed a capacity to give judgment very quickly. I can tell you that if these governors in this lecture go to court in the matter of months, they're going to get judgment. And not only that, the court has also been very brilliant in the sense that the judgment has really good on social media. Oh, I forgot, we are under a regime that has banned Twitter. But after every court decision, you get a link to the major issues there and a link of the court judgment. So you can read. It's available on Twitter. But you know what's going to happen in Nigeria where another dictator has to ban Twitter. Okay, so I want to ask you about a particular trend we've seen amongst our governors and in government where two parties, government being one, signs an agreement. And then they go ahead to re-nerge that. We know that the judiciary staff in Nigeria and the Niger government from signed an MOU regarding payments of salaries and all that judicial autonomy. But they're still failing to follow through. Now on May 20th, the labor unions and the Kaduna State government signed an MOU that all participants in the protest will not be victimized. But that's exactly what we're seeing now. So why do we have this repetitive cycle of government signing an MOU with the people and then breaking that same agreement? Yeah, I mean, I mean, very great question. One of the biggest challenges about the fact that many people in public office don't realize is that when you say a society is governed by the rule of law, what that means is that that society cannot be governed by the rule of man. The fact that you ascribe to the rule of law suggests that you do not want to be governed by the rule of man. And that is what has been a challenge with many state governments. They want to rule their state by the rule of man. They want to take decisions. A governor in Gumbel states, and two governors have done it in the last four weeks. I just said he's resigning the strategy of occupancy for people that already have theirs. A governor in the south-south, reverse it to be precise, who interestingly is a lawyer, said he was revoking the strategy of occupancy, or they will tell because some people went to do some police committees there. I mean, so governors have demolished houses, taking action without following the rule of law, which is very, very unfortunate, which is also what has played itself here and here. Even if there's no law that guides it, I mean, if you have signed an agreement, what is expected of you as a professional, as a gentleman, as for somebody that has been used in law and order is for you to follow the duties of what you signed. I mean, even though we know that you didn't want to sign, well, you signed eventually. So you should do the right thing. And it's very unfortunate that we have systems and processing agreements in Nigeria. And it is a government that is violating it. What you expect is that it's the other party that should be violating agreement. But where your government at the world that can't respect sanctity of contract, when it's your government that cannot respect their words, it is pretty unfortunate and totally unexpected of leaders in a democracy. You mean, is there still any hope and faith and trust and or belief in the Nigerian Labour Congress to fight for the cause of the common Nigerian? Should Nigerian workers still have faith in that body? Let's also remember that, I mean, one of the legacies, I mean, I'm trying to talk about some of the people that have done quite a lot in Labour sector in Nigeria in recent months. One of the legacies of the Babangida administration was to preach Labour Senators, which is a Nigerian Labour Congress for junior staff and the Trade Union Congress for senior staff. What has happened, however, is that because the two things have helped the cause of the Nigerian Labour Congress. One, it has more people. Of course, if you remember, the pyramid and nature of all structures, they have more members as a junior than those. So they are everywhere. They have a bigger presence in the Trade Union. And they also have some critical, critical associations in NLC. Who can hold this nation to the job? We'll have particularly an association like Nuken, that can affect the decision of petrol and product. So many people have chosen to align with NLC, even though by law, they're supposed to be members of TUC. So those lecturers, for example, in Cardinal State University, are members of ASU and thereby design members of Trade Union Congress. But they know that Trade Union Congress is not as effective as Nigerian Labour Congress. So that's why they are aligning themselves there. We will see that when people are starting Cardinal State, for example, it was Labour Trade Union or Nigerian Labour Congress that was at the forefront because they have more members. So many Nigerians say they don't trust them and that they are not as effective. But they are as effective as they choose to be. If they call out people, people will respond. Particularly when the NLC takes up an issue where people have a stake in. So, for example, if the NLC says, oh, we want to protect that they are privatizing airports, like that point when they were doing consensioning in the airport. Many people will know before that because many posseados are conserving. But when people are losing their jobs, like in Cardinal State, where people have actually lost their jobs, even if NLC calls those people out, those people will come out, right, because they're going to benefit. Now those people will come out, their children will come out, their wives, their husbands, their relatives will come out. So when NLC picks up issues that are public interest, there's more attention and more focus. Also, remember, that's the last time I've said this particular question. When NLC focuses on the states, it's more effective. So, for example, when NLC was pushing the issues in Cardinal State, it was able to get more traction. The challenge is that NLC tries to do things nationally. And of course, at the sixth state is a lot to mobilize action. So it's just like when also when INEC is in a election in the state, it's more effective than when you're doing national elections. So when NLC fits the state, you have better buckle up because they're going to give you a lot of trouble and they're going to make a lot of problems. All right. Okay, we really appreciate your time. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Thank you and have a nice day. You too. Really lots of anguish to this. And one important question that is bugging me is, will the Cardinal State government really reinstate this lecture? Because we saw what happened during the NLC protest. They said thousands of workers had been laid off. They protested, five-day warning strike. At the end of the day, the strike was called off. But we haven't heard anything about this work has been reinstated. We did the same thing with these 16 lecturers and two non-academic staff. Also, he mentioned the importance of the labor courts. The NLC haven't threatened to protest once more if they don't restate the workers. So rather than go out on the streets again, first of all, would Cardinal State be able to even handle another protest? Why don't they go to the industrial courts and set this out with the law? So lots of questions we need to ask and this issue is still unfolding and we hope to see the end of it. I agree. The industrial court definitely, like he mentioned, should be a direction that they probably should take at this point. But of course, we also understand the respect that Nigerian government in some states in particular have with regards to court judgments. So a lot of people also wouldn't have faith in that. And they would rather stand on the streets and protest and hope that their voice be heard. But it's sad, really, really sad. Like he also said, the fact that you've done something that is illegal by sacking people, you've gone, you've reneged also on an agreement that was signed in order to end the protest in state in the first place. So it's just really sad. Anyway, this is where we will be wrapping up this morning. We'll say thank you very much for your time and of course for spending time with us this beautiful Wednesday morning. If you missed out on any of these conversations that we've had, remember to join us on our social media platforms, Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. It's all at PLOS TV Africa. I am Osaogi Ogboa. My name is Annetta Felix. Thank you for watching.