 Paul, how are you brother? Yeah, good mate, good. How's the weather in Wales? Wet. Yes. Wet, but for the time of year we're lucky. It's quite mild. Yeah, it has been mild, hasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I've been going out for my run in the morning and thinking, Blimey, this is, what do they call it? Bulmy, isn't it? Bulmy. When it's... This is global warming, mate. I hate the cold. I don't have time to be cold. Yes, I'm the same. I could quite happily live somewhere an awful lot warmer all year round. Yes, got you. I'm just going to say hello to our wonderful friends at home. I hope your new year is absolutely fantastic. It's my great pleasure to welcome Paul to the podcast. Before we begin, we're going to say a big thank you to Roger Littlehaze, who put Paul and I in touch. Roger sent me a message and said, Well, mate, we'll be good on your podcast. And I thought, oh, yes, he bloody well will, won't he? Because Paul's got an incredible story starting back in the military and then going through to the Olympics. And I'm looking forward to learning more as much as I dare say everybody at home is. And Paul, royal Welsh fusiliers, from my understanding in the army, that's a very proud regiment. Yeah, well, my history goes back to 1689. And obviously it's no more now with the cats and the playing around at the military gym. It's now called the Royal Welsh Merge with the South Wales borders and the RRW back in 2005, I think. But coming back there, you know, Royal Welsh fusiliers, very proud history. Yeah, I always think about that when you hear these regiments merging because it kind of scrubs around all the esprit de cord, doesn't it? You know? It cuts it out. And so when I joined, it was classed as a family regiment. So you had guys, you know, brothers, cousins, and it was a huge influx of, it was a huge, and what was it called? God thing on being proud, being proud of something. Now, you know, all these great city people in Whitehall don't know Jack about the military. They just don't pay what looks good and they merge these regiments and it loses its identity. Yes. Yes, when you look at the landscape of it all, Paul, the whole of the British army is going to lose its identity because it's now been merged into Europe and they're doing it all. Yeah, it's going to cut again, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it's all this, they call it future soldier. Yeah. Yeah, don't get me started on that subject because that's the bloody big can of worms, that is. But tell me, were you from a military family, Paul? No, I wasn't. Just always wanted to join the military from a toddler and it was something I wanted to do. And as soon as I could, I joined, in fact, I joined before I left school. You know, I went down to the recruiting office, walked in at 16, said, I want to join the army. The guy then sent me upstairs to the doctor. He was there, cough. Yeah, you're okay. That was my medical. And he said, right, give off the deep cut to what they call it, what they call it, taste of the can. Yeah. From the end, they sent me to the IGLB, the infantry duty leader, the Italian folks in the can. Wow, so you were in the junior leaders, that's a blast from the past. Yeah, it was. I remember that, it was almost like the kid's army, wasn't it? It was like a military academy, wasn't it? Yeah. What's the Americans called it? An academy, you know? Gosh. 16 to 17 year olds. I know it really brings it home to you that just... What, is it a boy soldier as they call them? Yeah. Kind of savage, isn't it, when you think about it? When you think about the job that they might have to go and do? Well, it was treated like a school, really, it was like a... You know, we had... three terms. He asked me, a report was sent back to your parents. She said, how are you doing? Well, it wasn't bad for the English, it was military training, field craft, weapon handling. You know? Yes. And as a teacher, we taught them to take lessons and stuff, you know? I tell you what, mate, if they taught me that stuff at my school, I would have blown the bloody place up. Ha ha! I tell them, school for me, that was my school. You know, I was bright in school, but I had no interest in school at all. You know, kids stay in school at my school. Yes. So, what's it like when you actually leave the junior leaders then and go to your regiment? Was that a big shock? Yeah, well, obviously, you're coming in from boys' command, you know? Yeah. And you join the guys who've been there, done that. But as I said, this is where the... the family environment, the regiment's coming to it, because they just embrace you into it, you know? Yeah. Obviously, they don't see your age. Unless you can do the job, that's all they're concerned about. Yes, I bet. And, um, were the, um, boys' fusion... fusion days, did they go down south? They, no, we, um, funny enough, we were in Germany and we were kicked off. And then they posted us, my company, to, um, Canada. And then when the Gallagher went up, we were on standby, but, uh, they didn't send us down there at the end. Yeah, it's... that's a weird one, isn't it? Because... It was... it was, um, it was a bum-tension moment to think that we could be sent down. We were only in Canada, but at the end, the police said no, you know? Yeah. Did you want to go? Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's what it's meant to do, isn't it? You know what I mean? You don't drive your own Marines or any other forces, you know? I normally embrace this war, but, uh, you know, you've got a job to do, and that's what you do. Yeah, I remember I was on guard duty once in the Marines, and the security guard was an ex-Marine. All right. And he said that when his unit went down south, he was held behind for rear-party, and I... my heart just sunk for this blow. I mean, I'm like... Yeah, that's got to be the worst thing ever. Yeah. It's bizarre, isn't it, really, because that might have saved his life or might have saved him getting his head blown off, or losing his eyesight or something. That's right. But the mentality when you're in the forces is you just... you want to be included. You want to go and... Well, that's what you're there for, you know? Yeah. You don't join up just for the job. Although, obviously, a lot of it is... you know yourself. You don't get a lot of jobbies. Yeah. You know, you pay to do a job. Well, we've got something in common, haven't we, because when they asked me at the end of training, which unit do you want to go to? I said four-two, Commander, because I knew that they were going straight on active service in the Northern Ireland conflict. So I found myself... I had a bit of a weird... geographical experience in Belfast, Paul, because my little group, there was about 20 of us, we were called the Commando Reserve. We were like this little reserve troop that were going to float around. And first of all, we were attached to end company, which was White Rock. Right, yeah. And we did two weeks at White... or a week at White Rock, and then we got tasked to go and support Lima Company at Girdwood Park. And that's when it all kicked off, and that's when I realised why we'd done all this training before we went. Well, we were 81, we were 18, we were doing the hunger spikes, and that was in Delta Company. And we were posted to the West Belfast, which included the infamous Divas Flats, Lower Falls, Springfield Road, Falls Road, and then going up into the... you know, up into the Protestant areas. So we had quite a big area to cover. And it was quite quiet, first of all. But then, obviously, the hunger spikes started going off. And that's when it all kicked off. Yeah. Ireland was a... just a crazy time for a service person. Yeah. And I don't even like to go there and talk about what the civilians, you know, who lived there, must have gone through. Yeah, definitely. But it was such a big contrast. You know, you could be trolling the Protestant area, and you could relax to some extent. But then you'd cross the road into the Catholic area, and you'd have to switch on. It's really more, you know, and the hostility between just the street, you know, just crossing the road. Yeah, I remember we went out on a night patrol. I think it was... I think it was round about the time the SAS had just filled this young lab with about, I don't know, 20-odd rounds. Sorry if I get this wrong, folks, but... There was a rumor of this... I don't even want to say it because I get in trouble, but there was a rumor of a certain policy in the Special Forces when it came to engaging the... Yeah, in a room. You know, engaging the other side, let's say. And we went out on a night patrol round about then, and I remember our brief was if you come across a... nationalist... I don't like to use the T-word, it will get demonetised, but that's what we called him back then. You come across a nationalist... you know, shoot him. Say him, there were some hers, weren't there? Yeah. But shoot him. If you come across a lawyer list, you know, setting up a device or something, it's up to you. But obviously, you're coming by the rules. Yeah. You've got rules of engagement and all that. But when you're in there, you know, on the ground, and you're just kicking off everywhere, you know, you've got to interpret everything because you see him. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like, you know, you can't... you've got to go a bit further about that, like I said. Yeah, it's a funny conflict. I've had my suspicion since who was behind it all, and now a lot of stuff's coming out of the woodwork about that they reckon British intelligence ran the IRA. There was a lot more to it. Yeah. A lot more to it. Yeah, I'll say ran, you know, they were controlling some of their main players. Let's say, and after, I don't know, what we've seen on the planet these last 20 years, cough, cough. Yeah. It doesn't surprise me that these shenanigans go on and the gullible public just keep buying. You know, you've got certain people saying they were never in the IRA, cough, cough. Yeah. You know what I mean? We know for a fact that didn't work. But, you know, again, you let down this Northern Ireland agreement. You know, I could go into the politics of it and all that. Let's just instead talk about our experience, Paul. What was it like the first time you left a barracks to go on patrol? Haley. The first time I realised. You know, I was 18 years old and I patrolled onto the Falls Road and, you know, you'd heard a lot about it and you thought, wow, you know, you know, my eyes were going everywhere. Every person who's come up to me, I thought, well, hang on, they're going to shoot me or whatever. The very first time. Yeah. Did you get... Did you get load into a false sense of security initially? Not at the beginning, but as time went on and as months went on, we tended to get more a blasé of honour, you know. Never stretch off. You couldn't afford to do that. But you knew the area. You knew the ground. Yeah, I've found towards the end of our tour, I just love going out on patrol. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like a little mini-adventure for a... I know it's so daft, but I didn't think I wanted it to end, to be honest. Because at the time, that's what it was paid to do. Yeah, it's weird. I've heard people say, if you go out on patrol and say you're not scared, then you're lying, right? I honestly, I was never scared my whole time there, even though quite a lot of things went bang. And even I remember one of our last intel briefs was, they said, fellas, think of it like this. There's Semtex in every lamppost. I don't think, because we were so busy and we tried to do stuff out there, I don't think you think about being scared, because you're doing a job, you're out there doing so many things that it doesn't pop into your head at the skate. Perhaps when you get back and reflect on it, and you think, oh, I'm all... You know, right at the time, I can honestly say, you know, it didn't pop in my head. You know? Yes, yes, got you, got you. Did you lose anyone over there, Paul? No, luckily we didn't. We went through the ten hunger strikers, and all the riots and the shootings and the bombings, but luckily we didn't lose any of our boys. Yes, I remember, so in 1981, the hunger strikes, I was 11. Okay. And I remember it was on the news every single night, wasn't it? Yeah, well I was 18, I had my 19th birthday in a summer in Kingston's Blue Station. I had my 19th birthday in a river, on Dartmoor in winter. That was quite fun. Yeah, the hunger strikes. So, if I remember right, there's been a brilliant film was made in the last two or three years about this. It's really worth a watch. I can't think of the name. I'll have a look on the internet in a second. Really, really worth a watch. Bobby Sands was obviously the... He was the first to go, he was. Yeah. He starved himself to death, didn't he? Well, they all did. All the ones who died. Did they all die, yeah? Yeah, it was the terrible one. God, that's commitment to a cause, isn't it? Oh, definitely. In some ways, you've got to buy a commitment. Yeah. It didn't mean much to my son that I... the activity went up. Yeah. This sort of stuff gets overlooked, and yet this is the sort of... I think what we need to understand more as a society is that these men were so committed, committed to a level that as the 19-year-old me as a squaddie on the street, I could never understand, you know? They were very committed, you must say. You know, a lot of cities start in south and down. Yeah. And like you said, their commitment, you've got to admit. You know? Yeah. But to us, if I said any truth, it was given to me because they were seen as the enemy. Yes, Paul, they were, weren't they? And I'd be honest, you know? There'd be people up there and saying, I don't know, you know, why did they commit? They were the enemy. So when they went, they went. Yeah. You know? Yes, or... I mean, they did these dirty protests as well, didn't they? Where they would... Well, that was part of the... Yeah. And they were... Stuff they would do with, like, excrement and... Yeah. But they spent it all over the walls of the cell. I'm not judging these men, folks at home, by the way. I'm just saying... No, you can't judge them. No, you've got to, like I said, you've got to mind their commitment and what they want to achieve. Yes. You know, for anybody who's willing to die for their cause. You know? But like I said, to me, it didn't mean much to me when they went, you know? No, of course. I mean, you were, what, just a teenager at the time? I was 18, yeah. I was 11 years old, so to be honest, it was just, like, nasty jokes in the school yard, in the school playground. Yeah, that's right. But, you know, like I said, to me, they were the enemy. At the time, so when they went, they went. Yeah. You know, I didn't shed a tear over them. Yes. Did you get many contacts? Yeah, oh yeah. Every day. Every day. As soon as Bobby Sands went, the threat level went up twofold. You know? And we say, remember, we was on Springfield Road. And riots going on. And Roger Williams was part of it as well. And I was left down on the corner, covering my boy, the mates. And I looked across the street, and there was like dust flicking out, mortar. I thought, well, what's all that? And I didn't realise that I didn't know it. There was bullet rounds flying over my head. Somebody from behind me was shooting at me. Luckily, I was kneeling down. But I never heard anything. I stood to the stand and never heard the shots. That's all I saw were these, like mortar, brick mortar, coming up to the house in front of me. Yes, got ya. I'm just looking for a photo while we speak, so I can show our friends at home the craziness of it all. Maybe I'll have to find it another time, but I've got this photo when I'm over there. And it's this little lad putting my berry on. It was at the Divis Flats, you know, the hardest, one of the hardest Republican kind of... That was my idiotic cover. And this little lad, the kids, they don't, you know, he was that young age, he didn't obviously know the conflict. No, that's right. And I remember just looking and thinking, just how sad this all is, you know, these kids have got to grow up to this. I was on a cruise in the lift, and I had the medals on, and a black tail went. And people got in the lift with me, and they said, what's that for? I've been acting to say, you don't like to say it here. And I just said, oh, in Northern Ireland. And they said, we were in all bad over there. Just like that. No, not. The majority of the people in Northern Ireland are bloody good people, you know. Yeah, well, I've been drinking with IRA members because when I worked in Hong Kong, it was impossible to avoid them. I was a nightclub doorman, and they would come in the nightclub. I think if I remember rightly, I think it was because a lot of them had come over to, many Irishmen had come over to work on a new airport. I might be getting that wrong, but, you know, I remember one chap I was trying to speak, he just did not want to know. He just literally told me to act bold. Yeah, he almost kept it. He almost kept it. You know, I met him. I was in Tether Reef, talking to him after. And I had my G-10 watch on. I just waited, you know, military watch. And that guy came up to me and said, what was your name, mate? I went, whoa, hang on. You don't want to talk about it. I thought, hang on, who's this guy? Because you don't like to say, yeah. But he happened to be here. He was in the parachute regiment. But you're always waiting. You know, you never... I always watch what they say or who I speak to, you know, even now. Yeah, I mean, for seven years of my life, I had to check underneath my car before it got... You asked my wife, I still do it now, I go into a restaurant and I've got to sit facing the door and facing the people in front of me. You know? I hear it out my back to the door and back to people. I've got to watch the area. Still do it now, I was out for 40 years on from there, from... I remember we used to have to leave when we pulled up behind a car. Friends at home, we're talking about in the UK now, not just over the water, but in the UK, because the security was so high, you checked under your car every morning, you weren't allowed to wear uniform, like they probably are now. You had to leave a space when you pulled up behind someone at traffic lights, you had to leave a space. So if you come under attack, you had space to get out of there. Yeah. And sadly, people got shot in their cars, pulled, didn't they? Well, even in Germany. In Germany, yeah. And we was on the journey in, the threat levels up there. And that's why they changed the number plates. Because we have the German number plates, the old BFBS number plates. And the IRA and that could target them. No one, they were soldiers. Yeah. And they did. So the government then changed it to just British numbers. You know? Yes. The other side to my Hong Kong story, anyway, was one chap was like, he said, you've been in the British memory. And I said, yeah. And I said, you're in the IRA. I said, but the difference is, I'm not in the British miniature anymore. But you're still in the IRA, clearly. And then we went for a beer and it was absolutely fine. It's just one of those things, isn't it? Well, we was in there. Myself and a couple of mates of mine. We all served. And we went over to Dublin for the rugby. And we went into this pub. And it was a band playing. And they just said, it was quite packed in there. And they said, this is for the boys from the north. And we said, whoa, why not? We better get out of here. So they found out we were ex-military. Yes. Yes, of course. Gosh. So, Paul, let's, let's move on then. What do you call it? Did you call it an accident? Well, yeah, well, yeah, well. Accident, yeah. What was it? An accident. I was playing for my regiment. In Warminster. Nothing heroic. One of the things I was awful. I was into the boxing, into the rugby, into the football athletics, anything to stay up in the green. You know, the tracks. And I'm playing rugby. And I'm also going forward. But the powers would be the rugby officer that said, look, and the coach, we're looking for a mobile props. And we think you fit the bill. So I said, yeah, no problems. I'm going to play a bit of mind. So I went to the prop. And doing quite well. I was going through tries. It was working all right. But it was one of the days. It was quite a deal today, really. Down at the door, you know, wet on the foot. And I come up against the prop, you know, 23 stone. Big guy. And we went down and scrubbed. Scrub and collapsed on slippery. And scrubs kept pushing. And it was like a guitar swing. Like a twang. And you did nothing. This was like a twang. And I was hit. I was hit. Whereabouts was this in your lower back then? No, it was in my neck. Whoa. So I dislocated my spine. Spine. Spine itself at the C4 level, which is quite high up. But that dislocation crushed spinal cord. And that's what done damage. Oh, it's a cliche worst nightmare, isn't it, really? It's one of the things, you know. I was playing rugby from 11 years old. I was playing rugby. And you don't think it happened to you. And was this other guy, he was just playing, he wasn't being malicious or anything. No, no, no, no. Not at all. We just packed down into each other. The scrubs collapsed. You see this, he collapsed on top of me. Both packs were still pushing. And I just twang. You know, the neck was dislocated. And did you realise you couldn't move at that level? Did you realise you couldn't move at that moment? No, I didn't. I was wide awake. I still remember it to this day. I was up 30, 39 years now in Oxford Well. I was laying on my front. And I thought, well, I wanted to get up, but I couldn't move. I couldn't understand why I couldn't move. You know? Yeah. And the guys were kind of talking to me. Trying to keep me awake, I guess. And you know, the old nursery human, the spotty human. You know, showing the jokes of me and all that. Trying to keep me awake. But I couldn't understand why I couldn't move, why I couldn't get up. Yeah. And at what point did they move you to the hospital? Well, obviously they knew that something was wrong. And nobody attempted to move me. And they sent me there, sent for an ambulance. I think it was 20, 30 minutes after the ambulance came and took me to Salisbury Journal. And were you still conscious during all this time? Yeah. I had a strange experience. I was lying on my back. And my head was down, but I felt my body was trying to rise up. Now, whether that's an outer body experience, I don't know. But I felt like my body was rising up. But my head wasn't. And shut such a strange experience, you know. And did you have to go for tests first, or did the doctor sort? They got me to Salisbury Journal and the surgeon and that was all on standby. And I was constantly chatting and talking. I think I was frightened that if I fell asleep, I wouldn't wake up. I think that was in the back of my head. So obviously, I think I must have talked with the surgeon to death, like you. He was fed up listening to me. And usually they do it there. And I didn't do such a high up. You take on breathing difficulties. But obviously with me chatting and talking and, you know, going on. You obviously said, well, that was a breathing difficulty. So I didn't need a track lock on me, which is when they put a tube in your throat. And that's what they did. They just knocked me out and pulled my neck back into place. The dislocation back into place, you know. Yeah. At that stage, did you, is that what you thought it was? I've just dislocated my neck. Yeah, I thought, you know, I thought I'd dislocated my neck. After some therapy, I'd be back again. You know, back into my job. But I remember saying to the surgeon, I know it sounds brutal, but I think it worked for me. And I said, look, am I going to walk? And the guy turned around and he said, at this stage, we don't know it. You know. And he was quite straightforward. I asked him a straightforward question and he gave me a straightforward answer. What does a person think at that moment, Paul? Well, it's from my mind. I thought, I want to see this and I thought, you know, I don't really, how can I say that? I didn't feel sorry or sad or, I just thought, okay, let's get on with it. You know? Yeah, that sounds like a good attitude to have. Well, I had to think of the wife as well, you know. Can you tell us her side of the story then? What has she heard so far about this? Well, yeah, obviously, when I was at the injury, and I was on the rugby field, she, the guys come up and I said, look, you have to tell my wife, Lorraine, but don't tell her exactly what's happened. You know? And so Lorraine said that two guys went to the door and knocked the door in our flat and said, look, you're welcome. That's Paul's injury. And she thought, because I was always getting bumps and scrapes. She thought, oh, you know, I'll pack him there. I'm not going to pack and he'll be up the next day. But it wasn't until she got to the hospital that she realised how serious it was. Because, you know, I told him not to tell her. Yeah, but she must have been just distraught. And, well, Lorraine's quite resilient. She's, you know, she's quite, she was brought up in a military family. She follows in the army with me. So she, she, she's doing activities. Let's get on with it. And I know she hates a lot as well, for me. Yeah, I've got you. Um, what, was there any of this kind of, oh, maybe he'll war, maybe, you know. No, no. Um, as I said, the church had said to me, at this stage, we don't know, mate, if you walk again. And I don't think anybody hasn't done it. I can remember saying, oh, maybe you walk, maybe this. There was no false hope or nothing. They were quite straightforward and quite realistic on what I couldn't do. Did you have any feeling of, right, I will walk, that sort of thing? Um, yeah, obviously, you know, to me, it was an injury. I got to get over the injury, I got over my life. And I never, never ever thought I would mourn. And was there a point, Paul, where it all kind of hit home and you, you just had to accept it? Yeah. Well, what happened was after they had solved me, and they decided to take me to Cardiff for an infirmary. Now they were going to fly me in the helicopter, but apparently my, I wasn't stable enough. So they, they put me in ambulance with police escort and drove me there. You know, I actually stopped the, um, um, stopped the, stopped traffic on the 7th bridge, clinked the frame on this. Go out. And, and once I got to California for me, and then they put me, um, in the ward and the surgeon kind of saw me and the nurses and then they left me with my, you know, left me on my own then. Then it kind of hit home. But I know what's happening here. This is serious, you know. Yes. What, what did you make any, we, I guess what I'm getting to is, does it take time for it all to sort of settle in what's actually happened and to make a plan? Um, right. When, when I first started the injury, you don't think about it much. They tell, you know, they were quite, right from an early start, they said, look, you're not going to walk. You're going to use certain parts of your body and we'll get you to that stage. Um, but you're not going to walk again. Okay. It hits home. When you're then in a hospital environment and then onto a rehabilitation hospital which was Rockwood Spinal Unit, you can come into a, in a hospital environment where the people around you are all the same and the nurses are in, you're dead. So it doesn't hit home until you get out of that environment. So when I got home then, into back home, home in the house back when left hospital, it kind of hit home then. This is the rest of my life. And to be honest with you, it took me a good six, nine, nine months before I accepted what was my condition. The injury I had and I was going to be, and to be honest with you, I was a nasty son. Excuse the language. And I brought my family and particularly my wife through a lot of crap because it was just a way of trying to adjust to make it all happen to me. Yes, I bet. I bet your emotions must be all over the shop. But it was, you know, it's like, I wouldn't have done this today. You know, I wouldn't have been talking to you today. You know, you can see my hands. You know, there I wouldn't be holding the capital that way in front of people. You know, I would need it in front of people. My family would come in. I'd be in the middle of the food or something and I'd throw the plate to them all. I just didn't like the way I was eating and drinking in front of people. I didn't want people to see it. Yes, I do. Well, obviously I don't know, but I can empathise. Paul, did you hit the bottle at all? No, I didn't. That's one thing I didn't do. I didn't. My, it was, you know, being in an emergency or ex-military and you like things done and if you weren't done, it wouldn't spill away, bang. And it was frustrating that I couldn't do the littlest things or things would then spill away and to my liking. And I just used to kick off big time, you know. I used to shout and scream and it was all baller frustration. I couldn't accept that things, I had to learn to do things a different way. And because of that, then I just kicked off big time, you know. I throw tantrums and be a real nasty son to be honest with you. My misses would say I'm like that now, mate, so. Well, I would say you laugh at my wife as well. Did you, was there any part of your body you gradually got feeling back in? Yeah, well, I started getting feelings back in my arms, you know, and all over my body. It's different. The spinal injury is a strange injury to have because there's no two same people, you know. And my injury was quite high up. Paralyzed from, technically, paralyzed from the chest down that at the same time I can move my arms. I can't move my fingers, but I can move my arms. I can push around, I can eat and drink. I can feel parts of my body all over my body. My feet, strangely enough, you know, certain parts of the body. But at first, I spent the best part of four, five months lying on my back with weights drilled into my head pulling my neck straight, couldn't move. That's a weird one, isn't it? When they drilled that, it wasn't that cage thing that they... Yeah, it wasn't the case, it was, you know, the old hand drills that they had with the wine net, they down drilled two holes both sides of the head and then they attached a clamp which then landed off the edge of the bed with weights on, pulling my neck in place. That was me for the best part of four months. Does your skin just recover when they take those bolts out? Yeah, it's quite sensitive still, you know? But it's like anything else, it heals, doesn't it? Because the thing that we haven't discussed is you're not only going through this trauma, but you're also, I guess, having to consider how long are you going to be in the army for? Well, that was the other thing. That was my life, I just wanted to be in the army. As far as I'm concerned, when I joined, I was going to be there for the full 22 or more, you know? So when I was... We moved into military quarters when we got married. So when I had this accident, we didn't have nothing because at the time, the military gave you everything. Nimes, Forks, Caps, the Lot. So luckily I moved back, purposely too, back to where I lived, I was born and raised, and I moved into my family, my mum and dad. So we were lucky there because we had a good family around us. But I had no idea what I was going to do or what was going to happen. And I got attached to an ex-artillery colonel. He was like, you must have been my liaison officer for me, you know? And he put me on a posting in the military commas for three years after my accident. So I had a transition period. You know, I'm still paying by the military, I'm still in the military for all intents and purposes. Although I'd like to see him sign me up and send me off to the war zones. I suppose I could go in the tanks, pack it up, but yeah, so I had done the transition period, but it was still strange when I went up to Codegorff in Balox in Cracow to hand over my ID card and be signed off, you know? Because I had no idea what to do, what was going to happen and what we would do. And that three years gave me enough time to get my pensions. Yes. Yes, so I'm just trying to take all this in because leaving the military, that can just throw up loads of challenges for men and women, just that in itself. You're having to go through that on top of this incredible existing challenge. I'm always amazed by people who don't hit the bottle. Well, I really didn't. I can honestly say that's one thing I did. I think, to be honest with you, there was a lot to do with the family around me. If you know the families in the bannies, they're quite close in it. And I had, obviously, my wife in the ring. She had to start the military better than me because she was born and bred into it. So she had to start some way of what I was going through. You know? Yeah. And I had my mother and father. My mother was a typical vali's mother. Wouldn't take any crap of me. Never did as a kid. I wouldn't do that. And I had the rest of the family around me. So they were the ones that sort of enveloped us and cocooned us and helped me through it. Didn't answer that. Did you receive any funding? Is that forthcoming easily? Or is that hard to get? No, no. What I did when I got up to the middle. Like I said, I was paid by the military. Like any other soldier for three years after my injury. And once I started off then, the only thing I received was, which I still received, that was my war disablement pension. My only pension. And that's what I got. And that's what I get. I didn't get no compensation. You know, I would say things are different now. If it hadn't happened now, I'd probably sit here as a millionaire. But at the time back then, I think it was a clause that you couldn't steal the crown in peacetime. And that's what they hit me with. Yeah. Well, you sound like you've worth an awful lot more than a million pounds, Paul, the way. You know, you're obviously a living legend. Someone in the comments think it's Roger has just quite rightly pointed out that obviously you're downplaying this. I mean, we haven't even talked about how is it to get... I mean, the frustration of having to learn new things. Well, one second. Yeah, I mean, the frustration of, I don't know, putting your shoes on, getting dressed, feeding yourself. This is why I just kick off Big Stone because I couldn't do it fast enough. And I couldn't do it to what? I couldn't do it without help. And, you know, I was quite independent from an early age. So I've been in the military. If you, you know, you've got a certain standard and you want to do it and you do it. Because I couldn't do it to that standard or nobody could do it to that standard because they didn't understand what I was trying to get. That's why I kicked off and just did stupid things like picking up a cap, you know? Or picking up and learning how to do a tweet and drink using different methods with a fork and not just picking up a fork in a normal way. So frustrated that I used to kick off Big Stone with it. You know? Now I couldn't give monkeys, you know, I got a cap, you know, I got this cap. I got a picking up like that. That's just tricks of the dream. And that's why I was taught better at the time because they absolved him to me and it wasn't fast enough for me. It used to frustrate me. And you know what I mean? I, I suppose, reacted by kicking off. And as I said, for the good, few months after a good six to many months after my accident I could have, could be a right horrible thought to Lorraine and to my family. But I think what pulled it out, what changed me? We are now a big family holiday to the Isle of Wight. You know, mother, father, cousins do a lot and my cousins weren't going to take no crap of me and we used to go out and do everything. There was no way they wouldn't take me. And after a few drinks they'd put me on top of it, you know, I remember outside the pub and they'd put me on top of the picnic table which is like me, they'd go off laughing. You know, you imagine the people coming up to the pub thinking, my God, what happens there? They'd stick me on a rocking horse and the kiddies rocking horses and things like that. So they wouldn't take no crap. But the way they changed my attitude was I started kicking off again in the shower room that we had. It was something that happened and I kicked off big style. I started throwing stuff. So my mum came in, shut the door, kicked everybody out. Picked up a cup and threw it. So I picked up a cup and threw it. She put a cup on my lap so she'd go and carry on. So I threw it. She'd throw another one. And we spent about a good 30 minutes throwing cups and I was going to kick it off big style. She'd carry on. She thought I could do this all day. I'm not going to take any river shopping now. I didn't as a kid. And in the end I just started laughing. I thought, why am I doing this? I'm going to have to change from that time. I learned to accept stuff. And that was the turning point. Brilliant. Paul did counselling and all, you know, psychotherapy now is a massive thing, isn't it, in society? But back then I'm guessing it was probably few and far between, was it? It did not vary. It did not vary. You're having it now, mate. Look, and I'm not even going to charge you. Yeah, that's good. It's always good to talk. I love it. That's why I started a podcast. Well, what is good about, I would say, we've got a veterans association that you probably know yourself. And I'm Secretary of World Branch. And we meet once a month, like my big guys, all, we all serve together, mostly did. And it's good to, even now, you know, four years on you can sit down at a pint with like my big guys and understand what you're all about. And it's really a way of, it's a therapy in itself, you know. It's a therapy that civilians don't understand. Yes, there's nothing like getting in contact with an old buddy. And I don't know why it's just, it's just like you hit it off. You don't hit it off because you're already hitting it off. But you just... You've been there and done that, you know? And then it's bad now. But don't get me wrong, I've got some bloody good friends that I went to school with. And they understand me brilliantly, you know? Yes. But it's always that, more veterans, like I could talk you down, as we're talking down. And you understand me and I understand you. But there'll be some civilians, I think, with what they're all about. Do you remember something you'll see with me? Oh, exactly. And it's not just in the UK. You could be talking to a veteran anywhere on the planet and you're just... I was in Florida. And I got talking to a guy exclusively in Florida. And like you said, he was the panther. He was going back and forth. It's that military family, if you like. Yes. That last roof of a lifetime. And the other thing as well is what gets overlooked in these situations and, I mean, all these awful situations, veterans' mental health, I'm going to include that. And whatever the challenge may be, obviously addiction is a big thing in the veterans' community. It's recognising that the partners need support too, isn't it? Definitely. There's a huge change now in the mental wellbeing of veterans. And I'd like to think their partners and family get that same. It's a big thing. When the family, the soldiers, is one part of it. When they go away on duty, you've got your wife or the girlfriend or the family, they go through virtually a lot of stress and a lot of feelings that they need to talk about. And I'd like to think there's something there for them. Yes. We did a podcast. I'm just going to have a look for it now. I can't remember when it was, but we had the daughter of a serviceman on the podcast. And her father, I think, was quite high up as an officer or something. And she'd come on the podcast and say, what it was like to live with a serviceman who liked to drink and what it's like to grow up as a little girl in that environment and all this sort of... Well, as I said, my wife and my wife, she was born into the army. Her father was in my regiment, albeit he was a broad Irish Dubliner. Her father, yeah? Yeah, her father was from Dublin. But yeah, he was in a Welsh regiment. Yeah, work that one out. I think what happened was his mother was Welsh and they moved to Rexham for work. And I think he joined from there. Because he was a tailor. And in the army, he was our regimental tailor. I think that's why he married Doreen, actually, because all my kittens were done. Don't tell her that. But then he had a broad Dublin accent. He served in North Ireland as well, which is a strange one. But Doreen understood the way of the military and families. She grew up with it. So she understood better than me. And I think she cooked a lot better, understanding the wives and all that better than me. Yes. I think from a military background, she cooked better than I did when I had an accident. Yes. Well, to be honest, it's some, you know, I don't know how to say this. I'm probably going to upset someone. And I don't mean one of our listeners. I mean, so many in my family. But I mean, my girlfriend, I definitely got the better deal. Put it that way. She's lumbered with me. I did. I definitely did. She, well, that was in Germany. We were posted in Germany. And she used to work in the, do you remember the SKC, the soldiers' cinemas in Germany? No. I've been in the room. Yeah, we were never in Germany. All right. Before your time. There was a cinemas called the SKC. I can't remember what it stands for now. Anyway, and she worked in there. And that's where I met her. And in these, where she worked, you know. Yes. She was 17 at the time. That was when the sentence started, your honor. Yeah. Well. For her. For her. Yeah, that's what it was. I went and said, like, the way she met me, she hit me on the head with a frozen cornettle. With a what? A frozen cornettle. I think from back. She was afraid of that attitude. So she hit me on the head with a frozen cornettle. And I still say to this day, I think I'm still concussed. Yes. My other half, she, she cornered me at a party. And wouldn't let me go. If I didn't promise to give her a signed copy of one of my books. And I, I, I use my command of escape and evasion tactics. And I still never, she still never got that book. Right. But what she did get is half my house. And she's, she's got an under six year old. So. And that's the thing. Lorraine got me for, well, that's the worst part of the deal. We have got two sevens. So we're thankful for that. Yes. I should just explain before I go and upset anyone any further. Hello. I'm in the middle of a podcast. There we go. What did I say? But no, I should explain that we, we amalgamated our houses before people think that she's taken me for a ride. Yes. Families. Let's give a shout out to the families. Cause bloody hell. Everyone glorifies servicemen and makes them all these heroes, bloody stuff, but they don't know half the story. Do they? No. There's in the background, there's strong women. Very strong women. Yes. That goes through quite a lot. But understand it. I'd say the soldiers wives and the military wives are stronger in mind than the soldiers themselves. Yes. I'm conscious. We haven't talked about your Olympic career or history. So tell us what's the difference? Well, what are the adaptations they put into wheelchair rugby? Well, what happened was I would say I was always looking for something, something to do after I got out. And Lorraine bumped into a guy, Keith Jones, and good friend, still is a good friend, in one of the supermarkets. And he was looking to start up a wheelchair rugby team in Wales. The first ever now is back in 1989. So being a sport, I thought I could do. I signed up and we performed the pilots wheelchair rugby team. Now, whereas rugby is obviously played between inside all the grass, wheelchair rugby is played in the basketball court in Wales. And it's four sides, but it's different levels. So me being a high-level injury with less movement, I'd be a half, what class is a half point player. And they grew up in half points after 3.5 depending on your movement and the ability you have. And so different levels of movement and different abilities would have different classes, different points. And you go on court with a combination of four with eight points. So you stick a 3.5 player, half point player, two point player and one point player. So you have different levels and you have to mix it up depending on the situation. So it's full contact wheelchair sport. It's physical. I always call it chest requirements. It's very tactical, but it's very physical as well. Yeah. How do you tackle someone then? You crash it when you're wheelchair. I love it. I love it already. And if you google it, you can see some of the past posts. Yes. I'm going to try and get up a clip. Bear with me, everybody. And what's the adaptation like as a sportsman? Yeah. What's the adaptation in mind? I used to play like this, able-bodied rugby. Yeah. Now I'm playing this. Is there any transition there or is it just like, fuck it, let's just get on with it? No, let's just get on with it. It's a sport. You know? Yeah. When I started playing back in the day, I was doing the grass roots in terms of playing in this country. The teams were few and far between. And it was just in its infancy when I started playing back in the day. So the wheelchairs were, well, the chairs that you're sitting in now, every day chairs, no adaptation to nothing. I'm saying now, if you see them, they're adapted especially for you. You're not going to build like tanks. So play is... Like I said, in that day, back in the day, there was a case of, let's get on with it. You know? Yeah. It's a sport. It's a physical sport. It's an exciting sport. And it was a sport that it would really enjoy. Yeah. So I guess it was pioneering back in the day, obviously. Yeah. Well, it was back in the UK. It started in Canada and into America. In the UK, I think it started kicking off around 87, 88. But there were very few problems between the teams. Yeah. And there was no wheels at all. And this is what Keith wanted to do, set up this one street. So I was happy to come aboard. And that was back in 89. Yes, it's funny, isn't it? Because the Americans obviously play. We're watching Great Britain playing America. I've got a clip up on YouTube here. Great Britain just won the gold medal last year. Oh, really? In the Paralympics, yeah. They finally did. Yeah, it's... You'd think the Americans would have their... I don't know, would they have trouble getting their head around rugby? No. I would say the sport that you were in was formed in Canada. Yeah. Yeah. You said... The Canadians were looking for... Basketball has always been there, with your basketball. But it's more for the guys who brought me back for one another. So they were always looking for people with neck injuries with us. They're less mobile. And they found this game called... What it was called... Last time it was everything they had. Yes, it does. But they had to change it to a more PC. Does it take a lot out of your joints or anything? No, it's quite physical. Yeah. You train, you get yourself fit, you know? Is there any... Where's your doubt in the end, yes. Yeah. Is there a danger of wearing out your joints and... Yeah. Yeah, very much. There's a few boys who were burned out to the joints waiting out. Paul, I just want to ask. Well, you might not know this, but I do a bit of running now and again. It's kind of been my thing for a few years now. But have you ever thought about doing one of these wheelchair marathons? Yeah. I could... If I started with marathons, I would still be in next week. Hey, that's all right. It's not a race. Oh, it is, isn't it? I've... Because of my left leg injury, and my arms are quite weak. Like, I've got... No, I've got biceps, but I've got no triceps. So although I could push my chair, I couldn't push it competitively enough to do my marathon. Yeah, got you. You know? And so that was never an option. This is where wheelchair rugby was a good option because you didn't have to be fast. Because my left leg injury, I was more a tactician. If you put it as to what rugby was, I would be a pro. With somebody like Keith, who was my mate, who started with a bit more mobile, he'd be more like their centre. He's more faster, more... So I think they set it up and do more tactics. Whereas he'd grab all the growlings from all at once. Can you tell us how did you get chosen to represent the UK at the Olympics? Yeah, well, obviously, you go through playing. I was playing rugby for the club. I started playing rugby then to Great Britain and Wales, etc. But what happened was then for the Paralympics in Sydney in 2000, what I did, I actually was the manager. So what I did was I decided to stop playing rugby as a player and go more to training. I was appointed as the manager of the Paralympics in Sydney. Is that a player manager or just a manager? No, I decided just to do the manager. Good. Take it easy a bit. Sounds like you. I couldn't do both. And how was it in general? It must be wonderful just to be in Australia. It was fantastic. The Paralympics were quite low-key compared to the Olympics up until Atlanta in 1996. Then you had Barcelona. But when you went to Australia, it was talked up to a different level because the Australians, by nature, embraced every sport going. And the Paralympics, they embraced it so well. They had kids coming up on school trips, doing projects on it. I'd be walking down the street and I'd be mugged, surrounded by people wanting to know what the sport and what I was doing. And they took it to a different level. And walking out on the opening ceremony into the main arena and have 60,000 people cheering and all that was a hell of a... It had never been done before. So that was the turning point for the Paralympics, I think, personally, was the Australia Paralympics. Nowadays, it's a fantastic event anyway. Doesn't it beg the question whether there should be a separate Olympics? I mean, that's... But it is in way. There's the Olympics and the Paralympics. They should be together, I combined. I never thought about it afterwards. I guess there's a lot of... There's some logistical considerations for a Paralympic. Well, obviously there's a lot. Obviously, as manager, it was part of my job. I spent the best part of two, three years setting up things. Luckily, it was the first time that the lottery funding was coming out. Because I don't even like calling it the Paralympics. I always just call it the Olympics. Well, yeah, that's right. In one way, would the Paralympics lose... Well, I could say lose the popularity. Would it get enveloped into the Olympics? I don't know. Whereas nowadays, the Paralympics is now filmed, for instance, Channel 4 do it and the crowds. So I don't know why I think at the moment I'd be happier with the way it is because it's common enemy as an individual. More of all people are loving the sport. Paul, what result did you get down there? We come forth, unfortunately. We lost out in the semi-finals stage, which probably a bit diverse, but it was what it was. But I think what we did was set the foundations. And now, like I said, last year, fantastic achievement, they won the gold. So you were helping build the team for this moment, really, or build the ethos, you know? The ethos, yes. I'd like to think so. But it was the guys that come after me that didn't all work, obviously. We just set the foundations, you know? What I'd like to think was we brought the wheelchair back to a more professional era because I secured a lot in funding. For the first time, the guys were paid for training and etc. It was before that self-fund a lot of it. Paul, let's just... As we finish off, I just want to ask you, how is it then with your interaction with the public, being in a chair, obviously having different challenges, have you had any bad experiences? I had a bad day, I did, yeah. Back in the early 80s, I was called a fire hazard, you know? I met up with some ex-soldier made to mine and we had a drink. And they said, come on, let's go to this club. So I said, yeah, I'll come to the club and they stopped me at the door and said, you can't come in here and make your fire hazard. You know, it wouldn't happen nowadays. I accepted it because that was normal. I went on a placement, Paul, right? I studied youth work at university and I did this placement at work and with young people and the building had three floors to it. And on my first day there, this lad gives us a tour of the building and all the fire extinguishers, all the exits. And when we're on the top floor, he said, right, and this is where we leave the wheelchair people when there's a fire. And I was like, what? He says, yeah, we leave them here, then we all evacuate the building. And I said, well, why would you leave them in a burning building? He said, oh, then the fire brigade will come and get them, right? That's spandex in there. Hey, I completely get it, but it just made me laugh that as a rule and release command though, there's no effing way I leave someone in a burning building. And if I could help it, right? Secondly, that this lad, to him, this was gospel, this was Bible, this was the rule. There's no breaking this rule. I'm like, oh, mate. And I said to him, why wouldn't you like trying, you know, why wouldn't you just carry them out? He said, well, if I drop them, they might sue me. See, that's the thing in there. Isn't there a strange situation where there are no days where you've got suing culture coming from America, you know? For that guy to think, I can't save him because I might get sued. Yeah. He shouldn't think like that. He should think, I'd probably move my shoulder and run it out. If I fall, well, at least I'm trying to save the guy, you know what I mean? Yes. My attitude, you know? I just want to ask you about your, your book. How's book sales doing? Because that's a tough area, isn't it? I'm not too sure. I got 32 revisions on Amazon. So positive ones. Am I that? Yes. So it must be doing okay, you know? Yes. The long, the long road back. Friends at home. There you go. I've got it up on the screen here for you, Paul. Thanks. Grab yourselves a copy. Guys, Kindle looks particularly inexpensive. I don't know why it's starting to be expensive for people back. I believe I didn't set the price by the way to tell people. Yeah. But I believe it's because I got four bills in there as well. Yeah. The thing is with some of these platforms is the publishing cost is so high that if you don't set your price at a decent level, you don't make any money, Paul, do you? You know yourself. I'm sure you've been a publisher all through yourself. So I know it went down to 11 pound of one stage. Yes. I think that was on the sale. But I know that the feedback I had, it's a good read. I tell the story of my life. What I did, what we were talking about today, you know, what's wrong. Yeah. And everything back. Just imagine if you were starting out on this journey, you just had had an accident. A book like this would be invaluable to you. Well, I hope so. I think this is, it was my son, my youngest boy, Aaron. He inspired me to do it. I was going to do something about that book, but it was going to be based on North Island, basically. And he said, what I want, that's just a part of what you had done. We've got a story to tell up there, which could inspire, as you said, other guys who went into the situation to me. So I said, oh, okay, I'll try it. I should be here to do it during lockdown. And, well, the long road back is the outcome, really. The guy called it the long road back, because it's taking me up in my 60th year on this year. And I think... You don't look a day over 85, mate. That's a lot of a good woman that is, mate. You know, I think why I call it that is being in my 60th year and how I've come to a point where I think it's accepted, you know? It is what it is. Yes. I'm just going to say, friends at home, if you've got a question for Paul, put it now, put it in capital so that I can read it on this, so I can see the question. If you've got a burning question like, Chris, why didn't you ask Paul this now is your opportunity? But literally do it in the next 30 seconds, because we're going to bring this to a close. Is there, Paul, is there anything that people should and shouldn't do? I know every situation is different and obviously people's natures are very different. For example, I can imagine someone would appreciate if you opened the door for them and another person would think you were being patronised. To be honest with you, mate, I started off... I wouldn't... I took offence at the list of things. That's because people didn't know how to react along with me. For instance, I was in the pub with my dad and he came up to me with dad and said, oh, what does he want to drink? I sat next to him and my dad took a look and asked him, he's been there. But that wasn't there being... even though it was just that they didn't know how to approach it, you know? And I said, when you see somebody in the wheelchair, just treat them as normal. We are normal people, you know what I mean? I've got a brain, I've got a function. I've done everything. I've jumped out of the planes. I've got a job now, I'm a magistrate, you know? Yes, and by pure coincidence, our friend Roger, who I've now worked out who Roger in the chat is, it's obviously Roger Littlehaze, has asked me to ask you about that. So what is a magistrate's duties? It's the justice of the piece. So it's, you know, when you were... when you got caught for everything, then you come up against me, basically. So if I get done for speeding in Wales now, we're all right, yeah? And I'll have an end to it with a couple of bob-enders in the feed post. Well, of course. Hey, if you like my girlfriend, you'll get a signed copy of my book, mate, or no maybe you won't. Oh, that's a must-read, that's lovely. And how is that then? I bet you meet some scoundrels and I bet you meet some silly scoundrels. You meet all sorts. I do criminal, I do criminal court. I also do family court and I do domestic violence court. So you meet all sorts. And you get everything from speeding, drugs, you know, assault, you have the wide spectrum. And the guys I meet, you know, my fellow magistrates, they're fantastic people, you know, from all walks of life. You know, and the court that I sit in, up in Murthartonville, I just treat there as a normal person. You're going back to what you said about how you treat people, you know? You just treat them as normal people. I just get on with my, you know, I just turn that into my job and I just do it normal at other people, you know? Yes. Can I tell you my court story? I've accumulated a few over the years because I wasn't always this well-behaved. But one time I was up, I think it was speeding. And it was one of these small local courts somewhere and the first person was up, I think they were up for stealing a loaf of bread from the court. And that case went on and on and on and on, right? There's a guy behind me. He's had to drive all the way down to the south west from Scotland because that's where he got, that's where he got his speed and took it. So he's just like looking at his watchgun. Oh, bloody hell. The next guy he's up, right? He was actually a guy I used to go to school with. He's been poaching salmon. Poaching salmon with his dog lead of all things, right? So I think that's quite a skill actually, he's poached salmon with a dog lead. So that's going on and on and on and on, right? This guy's like, oh, I don't believe, I don't believe. And that's the third person got in a box. This guy goes, and what's this guy there? Then your other is stolen the biggest bicycle. It was for anyone who's grown up in the rural countryside, you'll know why I'm finding this funny. There's one last question. It's from Rob. He's saying, would you like Boris in front of you? And I think we all know the answer to that. That's 20 years hard labour and all the rest, isn't it? Paul, listen, you've been absolutely brilliant, mate. I've thoroughly enjoyed this chat. I mean, mate, I have. Yeah, I love talking about the Northern Isle stuff, because it's... It's kind of one kind of a lit set. It's a conflict not to talk about. Yeah. And we've watched it on the podcast. We've kept a lot of stories alive. But of course, as an ambassador for the wheelchair community, if I can say that, it's just incredible talking to you again. And as an ambassador for sport, fantastic even more. So what's in the future, Paul? Well, I just kind of carry on with what I'm doing now. I'm always looking for new challenges. If it's anybody out there that's been giving me any ideas, you know? Always fancy going to the North Pole. First wheelchair guy to go to the North Pole. But I think I'm going to be a bit old for that now. And I hear the cold, so I go the way I said that. I thought it was going to say you want to go to the moon. I was going to say, well, we've got to do that. We've got to do that first. I don't think we've done it. Anybody out there say, you know, I've done a few, you know, we fought the palm tree jumps for Charity and Skydive, like I said, I got in the glider. So anything, you know, I'm always up for new challenges. Wow. Hey, I'll tell you what always impresses me are the guys who do the wheelchair skiing. Oh, yeah, I'm talking. I'm talking. No, when I... Oh, the skiing, yes. When I go snowboarding, these guys just fly past you, you know, they're mental. Yeah. And how they have the balance. It's just a ski, for friends at home. It's one ski with a chair above it. And... Yeah, the chapel or the girl, I've only seen chats, but they sit in it and they have their sticks and then they're off. Yeah. And it's just an amazing feat of balance. So there you go, mate, there's the challenge for you. Well, like I said, I don't like the cold. Well, we'll get you on one of these indoor snow places. I think there's one up near Wales, but... Right, Paul, don't stay on the line, brother, because I'm going to play this out, but just to say massive thank you again. No problem, mate. Feel free to come back on the podcast anytime and update us on what... I love people listening, you know, it's okay, you know. Oh, I think they'll think it's wonderful, mate, because I did. And yeah, I'm the judge of a good podcast now, because I've done a few. Oh, well, yeah. I have seen a few of them. I have seen a few of them. I'm not going to feel that. Yeah, so I hope you get to do a lot more, because I think you should tell your story as often as you can. Yes. And, uh, Roger's just chipped in here with your... You've been diving. We'll... Don't get to that, mate, it's not diving, mate. He was a born diver. Oh, okay. Yeah, he absolutely loves it. He breathes it in us. Yeah, we'll take that next time. I've got a few diving stories in the bag. Paul, have an absolutely fantastic Monday and incredible New Year. I hope to hook up with you at some point. I hope our futures cross. Yeah, you keep in touch, mate. I enjoyed it. Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. And to everybody at home, if you can chuck us a like on the video, that would be wonderful. If you can do this thing here, which is subscribe. Yeah. That would be awesome. Paul, I'll say goodbye to you again. Okay, mate. Goodbye to everyone at home. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Let's look after ourselves. Let's all see ourselves soon.