 Did you do it? What do you have to say? I am not guilty. You know, I was not there at the time that the fire started. I know there's been some allegations. Sheldon Davis killed his girlfriend in 2019. And we're going to watch a video he did, an interview with the media. And we're going to tell you, we're going to teach you the body language cues and tells a look for if you think somebody's lying to you or being deceptive. Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to watch? The first video was before he went to court when he was trying to get his story out. The second one, he didn't think it was good enough. After he went to court, he came back to try to establish his alibi. Just one point that you need to know is a few weeks before the murder of his girlfriend Denise Anderson. She had pressed charges for sexual assault and domestic assault. All right, so just to start, you were arrested and you're being charged with murder in arson. Did you do it? What do you have to say? I am not guilty. I was not there at the time that the fire started. I know there's been some allegations that I've admitted to it. That is wrong. I have not. Like I said, I didn't know about it until the detectives or the police arrested me. That's the first time I'd heard about it. So where were you then at the time the fire happened? Well, I left early that morning. I went quite a few places, but I had a job that I was supposed to do. And I left real early in the morning, but I had a lot of things to do. But I can't get into detail about everything I had to do. The case is still ongoing. But yeah, I left real early that morning way before the fire started. So her son, Nicholas Brolin, who we interviewed, said you did it. And showed us text messages. A friend of hers says you did it. And even the person who squealed on you said you did it. Are you saying that they're all lying? Well, first of all, no one was there. No one was there. But me and hers had our problems. And so some of those, her friends or whatever, think the worst of me and think that I would do that. But that's not the truth. All right, Greg, what have you got? Yeah, let's first start and we're talking about his girlfriend who has died not very long ago. And we always talk about the grief muscle being this bundle of muscles in your forehead. Those things you don't sit and do this with. When you're feeling grief, those muscles not up. You end up with this little horseshoe shaped thing at the top of your brow. And we call that a grief muscle primarily because Duchenne and Darwin called it that. But we don't see that. Let's also talk about how people resist telling the truth. Forget resistance to interrogation. But people resist by concealing, avoiding, using an accuracy and making information harder to get by using compound or confusing language and other tactics. And you'll see it all the time. He's going to do it by redirects apparent helpfulness like I'm trying to help you sticking to the case. I can't tell you because the case prevents it. It's classified. I can't share it with you. And then insinuating, evident innocence, but not actually coming out and saying it. This guy does what we call the romance or all the time where you make hard eye contact to see if a person is believing you. And watch him as he looks away. You'll see blank rates increase. But when he's making hard eye contact and he's focused, that's not there. He does something I call in the South, we call it country dumb. A person who pretends to be dumb when they're smarter than they are, but he's not smarter than that. He just thinks he is. So we're going to see him do some things and you could take advantage of a person like that by probing and poking and stroking their ego and doing a pride and ego up. So they feel like you're believing them and they fall for it. And we're going to see a little bit of that as we go. This guy's been in the system clearly at some point because he uses words like not guilty allegations, not I didn't do it, I'm not guilty. He's halting as he talks at the time the fire started. That's the first redirect and allows him to talk about the fire, not about a death. And there's some key body language in there. He turtles with his neck jetted forward and he uses that request for approval, raising his brow as he's talking to you many, many times. That first redirect allows him to get this person who's asking questions to go down the path of the fire. That allows him to talk in a way that he's already prepared for, he's got an alibi prepared. And you can hear his cadence shift as he goes and by cadence I mean how he's fast or slow he speaks. It shifts when he goes into quite a few places, had a job that I was supposed to do long vowel. Something's up there, would wanna know and dig in a little further. And when he says real early, there's a punctuation with his brow that is very odd, very odd, almost like a micro expression of anger, but then that's okay, because he goes into full blown anger and you can see it, it's contained because he's had to contain it at some point in his life. You see his lower teeth show, looks under his brow and I would guess that what we're seeing in that place if you were to freeze it is a small expression of what his anger looks like when he's in private is just what he's doing here. There's so much in here, I hate to go even this long, but when folks are challenged, they get angry, those are usually narcissists, they get really angry and that's what I think we're seeing here is some of that. There's also some faint belief when she says, or when the guy says you did it, when somebody said that he did it, you can see that the expression in his face that disbelief is gone that quickly and a new one takes over and he's doing something I would call an angry smile where he's got his upper lip is tight across his teeth and if you do an eye lock with that, that's a predatory angry smile. My wife is a private investigator and I asked her, where do you start when you start an investigation? And you know what she said? Google, I search them online. Have you ever Googled yourself and you were shocked to see the personal information exposed on one of those public listing sites? Of course, I Googled myself. You wouldn't believe what I found. It knew where I used to live, it knew my old phone number, it knew all kinds of things. I had no earthly idea we're out there. 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You can either let people continue to exploit and profit off your information or you can go to aura.com slash tbp. Aura.com slash tbp to start your free two week trial. There's also a link in the description below. Chase, what do you got? I agree with you. There's a lot in here. Just you kind of just dissected the whole thing. There's a couple of things in here that I noticed watching this. His blink rate goes up right away. And he's saying, I am not guilty. I was not there, which is a failed denial. It's not a real denial. And then there's a shift to nothing but this unusual left-sided recall. So he's looking down into his left a whole lot looking kind of crazy amount of eye movement to his left side, which down here, this left downward looking gaze is what people associate or what we associate with internal dialogue. Someone's talking to themselves or rehearsing what they're gonna say. He calls the other person's story allegations instead of lies. Greg, you touched on this. This is big when somebody's not really saying that someone else is a liar. And the interviewer says, are you saying that they're all lying? And he says, well, first of all, no one was there. There's no denial. He's unwilling to call somebody else a liar and he's using being present at the scene of the crime to separate himself from other people. I want you to think about that. He's using being at the scene of the crime to separate himself. Greg, you covered a lot. In the rest of these, I'm gonna do something different in this episode. And in each of the following videos, I'm gonna cover a few developmental, genetic, and neurological issues that can cause violence, aggression, and other antisocial behaviors. I'm gonna start with genetic factors in the next video. This guy reminds me of a perfect, exact caricature of Scott's example of a Southern lawyer. And I'll pass it to you, Scott. That was a while ago, man. Wow, I can't believe you remember that. It's a good one, though. Wow. Yeah, this thing's full of it. So I actually had to use my notebook thing today this time. So when you're dealing with facial expressions, you have to make sure they're real. Because that thing Greg was talking about, that real quick little fake concern thing in his brow, that's just him registering that he's getting a question. And we know it's something to bother him because it happens really quickly because it's supposed to bother him. But it may not actually bother him. I don't know. You'll see as we go along in these because he does it in almost every video. So keep that in mind. And the thing about that expression is that a fake expression won't stick. What you're looking for, the real expression is it sticks and it fades away. We dealt with that with the Amber Heard stuff. In this situation, it comes on so quick and it goes away. But it's this faint concern thing he's got going on. And you're right, he's focused. He laser focuses on her because he wants to make sure he's being believed. Well, when she asks him questions, those eyes get wide and he just looks and his blink rate's really low. So he's worried. Quite often we know there's an issue there when somebody's blink rate goes up and they start worrying, they start blinking a lot. But he's worried, she's not gonna believe him. But he's here for the, the only reason he's here is to get his story out. That's the only thing that he's trying to do is get his side of it out. Because apparently as we'll go through this, you'll see it's everybody's saying, this guy did it. I know he did it as this guy, man. He did it. Everybody, his best friend, his girlfriend's friends, although, so we'll see how he's fighting against those. That's what we're dealing with here. Somebody trying to set his story up to ward the other ones off. To me, when he does that head shake like that, those should be, it would be more convincing to me if he was doing this, even though he's saying no, he should be saying, he should be doing the confirmation not instead of the shake, no. Because those are out of whack. They're not going in time. So I don't know what's going on there. I'm not sure he knows what's going on there either. He's rehearsed this in his mind, but he hasn't talked about it out loud. He hasn't rehearsed it with anybody because he can't say it out loud in the jail because he looked like he was nuts. And they're saying, no, I did not. No, I did not. All those things. The non-contracted statements, those things where he says, and denials where he says, that is wrong. I have not. We know better than that because that lets us know he's been thinking about it. So you'd say, that's wrong. No, I didn't do it. It wasn't me. You shorten those because you're trying to get those out. You don't say, I did not. I have not. Nobody talks like you. Some people talk like that every time I say this. Because I talk like that every time I talk to someone. Maybe you do. But you don't say, I have not very often. I won't go into that. What might be wrong with you? Then he does that nod, yes, when he's saying, that was the first time he'd heard about it. So that's the first time I heard about it. I don't think, we know that's not true because he did it. And he's already got, he's in prison for it now. So I can say that with confidence on that. But pay attention to the nods because they're not confirmation nods. Confirmation nods come on the words. Not like, yes, I'd love to go. It's, yeah, I'd love to go. That kind of thing. You got to pay attention to that. Sorry, page two. I'll try to be just short. That's right. Where were you when the fire happened? That's what it is. When he says, and then his answer is the exact same thing twice. Watch when she asked him that. He says the very same thing two times. He tries to make it a little bit longer. He's really going hard on this, trying to get his story up and running. We see a micro expression of disgust and anger on real early when he says real early. And for me, that's an issue because it's about what time all this stuff happened. Because you're going to see that real early that changes as we go through this. Personally, I think real early is like 5.30, 5.45, right in there. So my wife says, let's give it 5.30. I'm like, yeah, I used to do that. I was a four o'clock man forever. I'm not doing that anymore. So that would be early for me. But not this cat. When you find out what time these guys getting up for his job, that's early. That's early. So, and then, I got so much on here. I'm going to eat everything up. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, well, so as you can see between us, we could probably all talk for a whole day just on this one video because it's absolutely packed. As is usually the case, I don't know who this is. I don't even know what they've done at this point. And for this character, you probably don't know who this is and what they've done because Greg has managed to pick this one out of the ether somewhere. It's not really big in the news. So fascinating to watch. And just so you know, we're the behavior panel and we're doing behavioral analysis, which means we're going to look at everything that's there, what's behavior. It's everything that people do within a context, which not only means how they're moving, what they're wearing, what context they're in, but exactly what they're saying, the cultural context around that. We're going to do all of that. And it's analysis, which means it's not art. Nobody's making stuff up as an expression of themselves. That's art. What we're doing is behavioral analysis, which means we're looking at the intelligence that we can bring to this, the critical thinking around it. So what have we got? I was not there at the time the fire started. Okay, well then, when were you there? I mean, it kind of suggests that you were there at some point. So the interviewer, quite good interviewer says, where were you then? Well, he doesn't answer with a place. A place would be a good answer to that. He answers with a time left early in the morning. Okay. With quantity, I went to a few places. Yeah, but we want to know where, what are the place, not what time, we want to know the place. Well, a few places, okay, quantity. And then it's just full of a mission. The job I was supposed to do. So we were asking for a place and now you're going to tell us about the job that did not happen. So this is just excuses and moving around the question. It's quite an extraordinary degree here. I agree with everything everybody has said. The concern there at the start, just go back and look at that concern. It's utterly mismatched in every way. It happens way too early, which suggests he already knows what the question is gonna be. It doesn't fade in the right way. Just as Scott said, everything about it makes you go, if you are analyzing this, you go, there are things that are wrong with that. Now you may get a feeling about it, but what we're seeing is the things that are absolutely mismatched about it. There's looks for approval there. There's a lot of disgust and we're gonna see a whole bunch of disgust throughout this. We'll talk about that. There's lots of adapting in the chair. We'll see that a lot. We'll see another adapter that happens a lot as his arm swings behind. We'll see that later on. Look, are you saying they are lying? Yes, would be a really good answer to that. Yes, they are lying. Yes, would be a brilliant answer, a good answer for what he does is he looks, he tests the credibility, the relationship, the character and the verity, the veritas, the truth of just one accuser. There were lots of people who are apparently accusing him. Yeah, he just goes for one of them and does a character assassination. There's so much in that that immediately makes you go, I have no idea what the guy's done and why is there in the orange jumpsuit? But right from moment one, I go, yeah, there is for sure a strong degree of summits up about this. And that's not instinct. That's just details that are clear for us to see. One of those tape replays. All right, so just to start, you were arrested and you're being charged with murder in Arson. Did you do it? What do you have to say? I am not guilty. You know, I was not there at the time that the fire started. I know there's been some allegations that I've admitted to it, that is wrong. I have not. Like I said, I didn't know about it until the detectives, the police arrested me. That's the first time I'd heard about it. So where were you then at the time the fire happened? Well, I left early that morning. I went up, I went quite a few places, but I had a job that I was supposed to do and I left real early in the morning, but I had a lot of things to do. But I can't get into detail about everything I had to do. You know, the case is still ongoing, but yeah, I left real early that morning way before the fire started. So her son, Nicholas Brolin, who we interviewed, said you did it and showed us text messages. A friend of hers says you did it and even the person who squealed on you said you did it. Are you saying that they're all lying? Well, first of all, no one was there, no one was there. But me and hers had our problems and so they probably, some of those, her friends or whatever think the worst of me and think that I would do that. But that's not the truth. I have one more thing I felt bad about going, so I didn't cover it, but one of the single best contempt faces I've ever seen is in this video at the very end. When he says that's not the truth, his purse lips transitioned a hardcore contempt in that left eye and in that left face and a dominant eye closure. That's contempt as powerful as I've ever seen. So I was at your court hearing today. Well, first I wanna get started. What made you wanna talk to us today? Well, there's a lot of things that, in this case that hasn't come out and it's kinda been hidden and I'm kinda wondering how a lot of rumors are getting started on this case and a lot of things and they're taking a lot of things out of context that people says that they really don't know a lot about the case, you know. And so I kinda wanted to clarify some of it. What are some of those rumors you're talking about? Well, today I noticed in the forum, they put down that she was my ex-girlfriend. The fact that we were dating at the time of her death, matter of fact, we went out the night before, we went out of the weekend and stayed the whole weekend, the following weekend, we went to Detroit Lakes and stuff and we were getting along great. It wasn't like there was any animosity between the two of us. So she wasn't estranged, she wasn't your ex, she was your girlfriend? Yes, yes, at the time. And there's plenty, you know, there's camera footage from the night before, we went to the bowl of course and there should be camera footage there. We went to the bar, of course we stopped by the bar right next to the house, rather chubbed, the camera footage there, I'm sure. And the weekend that we went to Detroit Lakes, you know, we was at Zora Buzz. Once again, we came back on a Saturday afternoon, went to the bowl again, went to her place, stayed till Monday morning, no issues. All right, Chase, what do you got? Okay, so we know he's a horrible liar and he is in a way over his head here. But I wanna point something out that I think some people are gonna miss because of this. This calm and collected demeanor, coupled with kind of this soothing Southern accent. Greg, I don't remember the cool name that you had for it. It suggests a man who's comfortable in his own skin and actually knows how to use charm to influence other people. He's just been influencing different kinds of people and he thinks it's gonna work here. So this is a trait that you very commonly see in people with high social intelligence, maybe low IQ, but the social intelligence is probably pretty high. They're able to read and manipulate social situations of their advantage pretty easily. It's interesting to mention of a killer or a perpetrator here at all. No killer, no perpetrator, which is what everybody, if we were wrongly convicted, would be concerned with, especially if somebody that we say we loved was just killed. And the rumor that you might think, they're talking about all these rumors, the one rumor you might think would be the key one that he'd like to address would be the thing about him being the murderer. That's also one of the rumors that are on the internet that the reporter asked him if he wanted to address. His eyes are almost entirely in this down left internal dialogue. Not a lot of memory recall right here. He's going through lines in his head and when he says came back on Saturday, very strong kind of a mix up of anger and disgust on the face here. So let's get to the first genetic factor that affects some of these things. And the first one is called MAOA or monoamine oxidase alpha or A. And this is sometimes referred to as this thing called a warrior gene. It's an enzyme that helps break down neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain. And variants of this have been linked to aggressive behavior, particularly in males who have been subjected to early life stress or trauma. But it's worth noting that everybody with these gene variants exhibits all of these behaviors. And I just wanted to throw a quick reminder that Scott did not do the lawyer impression on the last video. So I just want to put that on here again. Got me. I'm not going to do it. It's not funny here. Or I'd do it. It's perfect. You're this guy. I know. It is perfect. It is perfect. I know. I can't believe I'll get canceled for imitating another dude like me, you know. The same skin color and everything. I'll get, I'll get, can't make fun of anybody. Steve, do you want us to misunderstand it? I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. Come on, my name is Sheldon. Sheldon. Oh man, it's tough. It's tough. All right. So we're seeing lots of low and tight illustrating. Really low, but really, he's really into it, but he's not telling the truth. So he can't go, they can't pull off a Bowden. And be like, hey man, here's what's going on. He's like, everything's really low down here. Like, you know, this, that, you know, they really, really tight. We talked about the studies on where those came from before the, from Alden Gray and Aldert Gray. And look his stuff up, because it's fantastic when it comes to being deceptive and illustrators. What he's, his cadence slows down, his tone's pretty soft, but his eye contact is pretty strong, he's still smiling. So again, he's trying to romance this woman. And by that, what we talked about is he's trying to connect with her, make her like him. He's, you know, it just looks so goofy, man. But so it's gonna be, it's gonna be tough for him to do that, cause she's not buying it. And what's happening is here, and Greg and I talked about this earlier. He starts as an interview. The next thing you know, man, she's coming right up his hind end because she's starting to interrogate him. Listen to the, to the space she leaves between her questions. It's perfect, you go, oh my gosh. And I thought maybe he slipped one in here on it and he doesn't know it. But she's talked to somebody or she's just brilliant right out of the gate of being able to ask a question and just tighten it up and not say anything for a minute. He just keeps puking. He just keeps going and going, giving up information. His blink rates pretty low. But when he talks, and I think it was Chase's thing where it's the, what do you call it? Chase where your eyes stay closed too long, but it's like a shutter speed. That's what it was. So the shutter speed on his eyes is really low as well. Which makes me, gives me impression he's got a lot of confidence. I think he thinks she's in some way, she's buying this and he thinks his story's working. So they can show a lot of things that shows he's got confidence. But now he's got his story together and he's trying to deliver it. And he does it over and over. And by the end, it gets it pretty tight. It sounds okay. But now it's his first since the first time he's been talking about it out loud. It's a little bit loose and he's gathered it up. This is why he should rehearse it out loud. And that tight eye contact is really still head and torso that real still stuff. That lets us know that he is worried. And as he goes through these emotions, we can see him. And I think we see one more little tight of those fake concern brown there. I think that tightens up on really quick. I'll leave it there. Greg, what do you got? Well, not only is his shutter speed slow, his processor speed is slow because he's not catching on to her because he thinks that he's brilliant when he comes into here. Look, he came in, not often do people say, hey, can I tell you what my alibi is? That's what he basically says when he comes in. There's some things that got wrong I need to tell you. Well, what the hell do you think he's gonna do when he says that? There's a term for charm that runs this deep. You know what that term is? Superficial charm. Guess what kind of people have superficial charm? I would be suspicious. There's no emotion, no grief. Again, no grief, none. He's talking about that. The other thing that I'd point out is he hangs out with a lot of people he considers scumbags, right? When I was a kid, they would say that guy's hanging out with the wrong crowd and I'd say, no, he is the wrong crowd. He just happens to be one of them. When all your friends are scumbags, you need a big mirror to look in and figure out are you a scumbag too? And you probably are. Just remember that. That's a good thing. When somebody tells you they're hanging out with the wrong crowd, you might look for why they're hanging out there. This is a clear attempt for him to do an iterative storytelling on how good the relationship was and then shift gears to she was a problem. That's transference. He's gonna talk about the good times, not the bad times. That's a lie of transference. I'll take good things and build a picture of great things and still not have any grief about that coming to an end. As he comes in here, now as he's telling this alibi, his tone is just flat and consistent. The female interviewer is a difference here and your whole point where he's going after trying to romance her, he leans in his eyes bulge. It's insane looking. I mean, if you go back and compare this to the guy, I think he thinks, oh, a girl interviewer is what I would guess this guy's thinking as you go in and he doesn't realize yet, oh yeah, this is gonna be a fun ride for you. He does what I call that front of mouth talking, that solicitous kind of tone like that. When he goes, I'm kind of wondering, well, that's just him trying to get her to listen to him. And then there's a lot of real smile, not toothy smile, not the upper tight lip and lots of fluid hand movement as he's doing what he thinks is charming and persuasion. If you start watching him when he does this, that's a persuasive head shake. That's a persuasive head nod. The big data intakes and agreement are these, watch him, you'll see a very big difference. There's more, there's so much to this guy guys, I'm gonna try to keep short, but his facial expressions and that forward lean and overlay opened eyes as he does whole body punctuating is, and he don't know much about the case. Again, that's a weird language for a person who didn't commit a crime. They wouldn't say case, it's I didn't do anything, you don't know about the situation. Again, he's probably been in the system, we're gonna see more pointers to it later. When she says that whole thing about these rumors, his face goes from smile to concern pretty quickly. I think he's thinking she's turning on him, she doesn't. Look, then he goes to romance or locks again. His smile gets larger when she starts to say his words. If you listen, when she repeats his word, look at his face. He starts to smile genuinely in big. And that's why I call it superficial. I think the minute you turn on this guy, that charm would go like that. That's not charm, that's superficial charm. His mannerisms are less control, his head's moving, then we were seeing in the beginning of the thing and all that front of the mouth stuff. It's just, if you think about what this guy's doing when he says there were no issues, there were no issues. It's out of the front of his mouth. And if you pay attention to this guy, either he blew up and did something or he planned this out and had himself in front of cameras and had video and conversation. Either way, it's kind of creepy. Mark, what you got? Yeah, look, I think we're all in agreement. Great interviewer here. And I don't think he quite knew what rank he was gonna get of interviewer here. What I love about her is simple, clear and quiet. Like really simple questions, really clear. And then she shuts up and lets him talk and she continually does that. I think it's brilliant. So if you do nothing else other than watch Alaya here, watch a really good simple interviewer get exactly what she needs. Brilliant. If you know her, let her know. We love what she's doing here. Disgust and disdain, a lot of disgust, again. It's turning into what I would call somebody with a malaise, a general kind of overview and feeling of disgust and disdain for the world. So quite interesting. Let's see how that continues. A lot of, what would you call it? Concern for his own image. Why do I say that? Well, he's got eye contact with that great interviewer and then every now and again, you'll see him clock the camera. What I mean by clock the camera is look the camera right down the lens. He knows the audience is down there. He knows that he's trying to get a message across to them and get a certain brand across to them. I don't think I've ever seen anybody as comically clock the camera as him other than Ricky Gervais in the office who does it brilliantly as a caricature, a parody of somebody who is self-obsessed in it. So interesting that we have that. So very definitely a performance. What else do we have there that I think is performative? Well, you're gonna be able to see him steepling all the time. This is what I mean by steepling is that he's got his thumbs up in this particular case, though you do see some people steeple like this. He has his fingers splayed and the fingertips are together. Now, why would I say this is a performance? Because people don't do this on the whole unless they've seen somebody else do it and pick that up unconsciously or they're doing it on purpose. Why don't they do it unconsciously on the whole? Because it's actually very hard for the brain to do. It's high neural load for it to do. And it's meant to look like authority or intelligence or shall I say it? Yes, status. So he knows that this should give him a brand of authority. He knows that he's doing this on purpose. Again, when did you, if you've got kids, if you've got kids or you hang around kids, like when was the first time you saw them steeple? Well, you haven't, they don't do it. Yeah, you remember the first time you saw them point, you know, point to the light or point to the moon or you know, it's like, when did you first see them do this? Well, they don't, nobody actually does that. Nobody actually does this. It's a made up gesture in order to have an effect. So what do we know from this? What's the analysis? This person is trying to have an effect for the audience down the camera. It's a performance. Will it be a performance that's good enough to fall for behavior analysts? Well, so far, no. Two videos in and I think it's an abject failure, but let's see how he does. Maybe he'll turn it around. Let's have another video. Oh, I think it's a good fella. Yeah, exactly. Well, the funny part about this is I thought when I watched the first two or three, I thought, well, maybe there's not enough in here, but he continues to delight. He just keeps going. Oh yeah, it's a joy. If you want to learn to watch when people are lying, stay tuned. This is a fantastic one. One of those tape replays. So I was at your court hearing today. Well, first I want to get started. What made you want to talk to us today? Well, there's a lot of things that, in this case that hasn't come out and it's kind of been hidden. And I'm kind of wondering how a lot of rumors are getting started on this case and a lot of things. And they're taking a lot of things out of context that people says that they really don't know a lot about the case, you know. And so I kind of wanted to clarify some of it. What are some of those rumors you're talking about? Well, today I noticed in the forum, they put down that she was my ex-girlfriend. The fact that we were dating at the time of her death, matter of fact, we went out the night before, we went out of the weekend and stayed the whole weekend, the following weekend, we went to Detroit Lakes and stuff. And we were getting along great. It wasn't like there was any animosity between the two of us. So she wasn't estranged, she wasn't your ex, she was your girlfriend? Yes, yes, at the time. And, you know, there's plenty, you know, there's camera footage from the night before. We went to the bowl of course and there should be camera footage there. We went to the bar, of course, we stopped by the bar right next to the house, rather chubbed, camera footage there, I'm sure. And the weekend that we went to Detroit Lakes, you know, we was at Zora Buzz. Once again, we came back on a Saturday afternoon, went to the bowl again, went to her place, stayed till Monday morning. No issues. So Tuesday night into Wednesday into Thursday, she stayed with you that day? Yes, yes. At your apartment? Yeah. Okay. And that was normal? Yeah. Did anything happen on Wednesday night? Did you guys get in a fight? No, no fight or nothing. And the thing is, you know, she has an ex-boyfriend that she, at one point filed a restraining order on and she even called me I think a couple of weeks before and asked for help because he was on her front porch and wouldn't leave. And see, those are some things that's not coming out. You know, they're sitting there, you know, stating like, well, I'm the problem, but you don't take somebody and ask them help if they're the problem, you know? And we have all that in text. And one thing in particular that I noticed and I did get it on tape, the weekend, because we weren't together for a couple of weeks, you know, we had separated for a couple of weeks. And when she called me to come pick her up on Friday, I think that was Friday before last, there was a note on the, when we returned to the house, there was a note that said, Sheldon's gonna kill me. And it had 726 on the note. And she didn't notice it laying there on the table. And I got it on film, you know, I recorded it. I said, there's a note sitting on the table saying Sheldon's gonna kill me. Where'd this come from? She says, I have no idea. And we recorded all this. So there was some strange things going on. So she had taken files out on this ex-boyfriend? You know, I'm not sure, you know? You know, I'm just saying that's a possibility because to be honest, she had a few exes. She didn't have one ex. She wasn't, you know, for a long time faithful, you know? She drank a lot in the bars. She was in the bars constantly. That was minding her big problem. You know, she was constantly, if it was about seven days out of the week, six, she was in the bar. All right, Chase, what do you got? When he says, when she called me to come pick her up, there's another disgust and anger, facial expression mash up there. And there's a suggestion versus a direct statement about a perpetrator. He's vaguely through wax paper, suggesting that this other person may be involved. And this is so common in guilty people that it's almost a guarantee. And they'll do this to cast doubt, but they're afraid to make any direct statements. Guilty people also do this with ambiguity and suggestion so they can test the waters. So they wanna gauge how you are gonna respond to see if they can take that road or not to discuss the other person. And this is not the behavior of somebody falsely accused at all. Next is something that in most research is called disparaging the victim. And this is from an internal standpoint, psychologically, he's wanting to dehumanize her and distance and soften the criminal behavior, his own criminal behavior to himself. And on an external level, he's trying to make the crime more cause and effect as if it might have been slightly more deserved than you initially thought. So maybe she deserved it and that's what's going on externally. And you'll see the eyebrow flashes here when he's doing this, his eyebrows are going up, showing this request for approval. I'm requesting that you show me some sign that you're getting this, that you're agreeing with me, that you're believing this. And you'll see those precisely at these statements of she drank a lot and wasn't always faithful. There's probably a couple other ones there and there's severity softening in here, softening the severity. So he uses the word literally. He uses the word problem to describe being a killer in this video, problem. This is what you call a cluster of high likelihood behaviors. This one clip has all that you might need to just make a determination about the whole case as a profiler anyway. Let's go into the genetic stuff really quick. There's something called a serotonin transporter gene and this is five HTT, if you ever looked this up. And this gene regulates the level of serotonin and a neurotransmitter that affects our moods and stuff like that is our serotonin. And some studies have even suggested that a link between certain variants of this gene and an increased risk of violent and manipulative and impulsive behavior when they're coupled with adverse emotional factors can lead to some behavior like this and some antisocial behavior which we'll be getting into quite a bit. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, that potential lack of serotonin would also give you a mood, a generalized mood of melee and like disgust and displeasure and contempt for just about everything. You know, if it's continuous. So interesting, interesting that you put that forward. The thing is she has an ex-boyfriend. Oh, well, that's the thing. Okay, that's the thing. The thing is she has an ex-boyfriend and then there's that beautiful look into camera. So here's the message. Here's the message he's trying to go. Well, look over here. There's an ex-boyfriend there. That's the thing. He then, he then says, she talks about the time when she called, the time when she called, but he looks up, I don't know whether it's to the left or the right and I don't really mind which way it is because the look up is so out of the baseline of everything else we've seen. I don't, I can't even think that I've seen him look up at all or certainly not in that direction. I don't know whether it's left or right. That for me, I simply go, hang on, that is way out of the norm for him. So my guess would be, and Greg, I'll pass to you in just a second because I'd like to know, you know, something, you know, about this more definite. I would kind of go, okay, well, he's making that up. There's something being made up around that. There's something, there's some art going on there. There's a story being created there for sure. And we have all that in text and we have all that in text and he clocks the camera as well and brings his hand around and does an adapter behind him there, adapts the environment, moves in his chair, you know, moves the environment in some way. So from that, we know that there is a potential for discomfort around and we have all that in a text and wanting us the audience to know that. Well, what exactly does the text that we have say? What exactly does it say? And why are you saying we have it? Why socialize it? I mean, it's your text, you have it. You have it in a text. And what is it? Like tell me exactly what it says. Cause my guess is it actually doesn't say probably anything like you're trying to suggest that it says and that's why you won't tell me exactly what that text is and you're suggesting that it's our text, not your text. Well, I would say here, Greg, that he is throwing out, you know, in your words, a lot of chaff, a lot of stuff to make us, you know, look at the shiny objects in the sky and to avoid having to answer real questions with real sharp data. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, let's cover a few things. Yeah, my first question is who's we? Who's we suddenly? Let's talk about we. Let's talk about narcissistic personality behavior. You know, I'm not a clinical psychologist. I'm not gonna say this guy is it. What I'm gonna tell you is narcissistic personalities, a grand eyes self with big blustery language and problems that affect them are diminished. And by that, I mean, yes, I am brilliant. I'm a great driver and I struck your dog. You know, they don't tell you they ran over your dog. They soften whatever language it is. I see it in corporate America. I've been a corporate guy a long time and I've worked with entrepreneurs. I work with founders of companies and you run into people who are gigantic personalities and anything, something bad has occurred. They diminished the impact. It's always an incident, Chase, you said it. He says, the problem. I mean, that's the way you soften the severity of whatever's happening. When he says we, in this case, I think that's exactly what it is. And a lot of these guys you'll hear at work will say, I did great things. We made a mistake. You hear that all the time, all the time. So there's that mark in terms of the eye movement thing earlier when he was asked questions and he was feeding his alibi. I think he was going to facts that he had created that kind of thing. They were asking him questions about something. They're not asking him questions that forced him to make up details. Now I think they have, I think they've asked him a question. You see a deviation from that left back over to the right. And what we're looking for is deviation. That's all we really care about. He's also, when you talk about chaff, that's a beautiful catch, but he's artful. What he does that is beautiful. Now, first of all, again, he hangs out with the wrong crowd clearly. He's telling us all about the wrong crowd, but he frames what he says. And you're going to hear it again with the thing about her is, the thing about my friend is, when he does that, you can expect, he's got a box of disparaging comments to say about them. And he frames it beautifully. The other thing that I think I see here is him, if you imagine a little kid sitting around a fire telling you a ghost story and asking you to believe it, look at that body language and tell me that's not this little chubby kid sitting around the fire going, and then the hook hand was on the car door. That's what I see is him pulling you toward and looking to see if you're following and fishing to see it. People that are in these situations get to a point where they think they're the smartest guy in the room because they have been the smartest guy in the room. And he's not. Scott, what do you got? All right, you guys have covered most everything I've got. But again, he starts with that fake brown engagement that comes and goes for it. And I think this is part of his baseline at this point. He just does that when he gets some information, he does that real quick. Sort of let her know that he's got, that he hears the question that he's concerned, which I don't think he, I don't think that counts, I don't think he is. Now, with that smile, he's still trying to romance her. He's still trying to get her to like him the whole time he tries to get her to like him. And she's not going for it. She's still doing that delivery. It's the same delivery for every question, everything. She's got just that same stale question in there. And then I thought someone was really funny in here where he says, you know, they were sitting there like I'm the problem. And if you look at him, his mouth doesn't move. It looks like a ventriloquist. The last time I saw this, I'm gonna have to word this correctly, Chase and I were in a situation where we were gonna talk to two people. And we had seen them down the hall and we were getting ready for it. Do you know what I'm talking about, Chase? Do you remember? Okay. So as they're getting ready to come down the hall and they didn't know, they didn't know that we were the ones that were gonna talk to him. I'll put it that way. And so as we saw, God, Chase does it. He goes, be cool in here, they come like that. So he starts the whole ventriloquist thing. And I start laughing, you know? Cause, and it was a serious thing cause here they came, but I started laughing. Of course they tried to at us, but I know just so we can just come in here, they come. I was like, oh, I couldn't be cool. I felt so embarrassed. Anyway, so, and one thing he's not doing is hovering over and squatting on. I didn't kill her. He's not saying that every five seconds, but she would be if you wanted to tell, if someone is asking questions about killing somebody, everything would come back around, but hang on to spend. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't do something we know. I didn't do this. Had nothing to do with it. I wasn't there. That someone's house plays and this happened. And here's, you know, you tell the story and he's not hovering over that, which you would be be scared to death that they actually thought you did this. Nothing, nothing here. All he does is trash her. Talk about how she's got drinking problems. Are we gonna see more of that here in just a few minutes? So he's not, he's not worried. He's not worried about what he should be worried about. He's focusing on all the other stuff about getting rid of everybody else, making them look bad. Yeah, I'll get everything else. Here we good? Yeah. One of those tape replays. So Tuesday night into Wednesday into Thursday, she stayed with you that day? Yes, yes. At your apartment? Yeah. Okay. And that was normal. Yeah. Did anything happen on Wednesday night? Did you guys get in a fight? No, no fight or nothing. And the thing is, you know, she has an ex-boyfriend that she, at one point filed a restraining order on, and she even called me, I think a couple of weeks before and asked for help because he was on her front porch and wouldn't leave. And see, those are some things that's not coming out. You know, they're sitting there, you know, stating like, well, I'm the problem. Well, you don't, you don't take somebody and ask for help if they're the problem, you know? And we have all that in text. And one thing in particular that I noticed, and I did get it on tape, the weekend, because we weren't together for a couple of weeks, you know, we had separated for a couple of weeks. And when she called me to come pick her up on Friday, I think that was Friday before last, there was a note on the, when we returned to the house, there was a note that said, Sheldon's going to kill me and it had 726 on the note. And she didn't notice it laying there on the table. And I got it on film, you know, I recorded it. I said, there's a note sitting on the table saying, Sheldon's going to kill me, where'd this come from? She says, I have no idea. And we recorded all this. So there was some strange things going on. So she had taken files out on this ex-boyfriend? You know, I'm not sure, you know, you know, I'm just saying that's a possibility. Cause to be honest, she had a few exes. She didn't have one ex. She wasn't, you know, for a long time faithful, you know, she drank a lot in the bars. She was in the bars constantly. That was minding her big problem. You know, she was constantly, if it was about seven days out of the week, six, she was in the bar. So, but she had also filed charges against you. Is that correct? Well, she did, but then she went to the detective and said she wanted him dismissed. Was that because you had tried to talk her out of it? No, she actually, I was told not to talk to her. So I didn't, and she called me and the detectives, I, you know, I guess they caught her in, cause she, like I said, she drank a lot and she made a couple of statements that wasn't true. And for a long time, you know, I told her, I said, I'm not coming back, back over, you know, it's pretty much over. And I thought about it and I said, well, you know, it would be kind of nice to look, look good and, you know, go back, make sure everything is straightened out. So I did, you know, and doing the process, you know, she was, she was saying that, you know, everything's going to be a lot better this time if you'll just, you know, give me another chance. But the detectives, you know, I'm sure they called her in a lie, you know, during the first time she was going to file the charges because she was drinking one night and it was late one night, but she'd had a lot to drink, you know. And so she ended up hitting me with a dog leash or something. It wasn't much to it. But anyway, the next day I left. As soon as I left, she texted me and said she missed me. And, you know, then later on she called me and said she wanted me to come back. I never went back. And then later on there was charges and or something, you know, the detective called me and I went down and talked to him and then he found out that there was some indiscrepancies in the case, you know. This is my father's name. All right, Mark, what do you got? OK, so we've got this low level, again, this underlying disgust and contempt throughout. What's the disgust? Well, you'll see the nostrils flare, you'll see, you know, the top lip tighten, the contempt, see the side of the mouth go up. Now, where have I seen this before? I think we saw it a lot at a continuous level with somebody like Amber Heard, for example. We've seen it with others that we've looked at. There is a personality type that does fit that as well. And this kind of low level malaise all the time. Take a look at that. Have a think about that for yourselves. One last thing about this, hitting me with a dog leash or something, well, as a general rule, and it may be just me, if somebody hits me with something, I can usually remember exactly what it was. Usually remember, you know, roughly speaking, you know, the kind of thing that it was. He does say maybe it was a rope later on. But but why the nondescript nature of this? Do you really not know what it was? There would be something like that. What it was, there would be something I'd like to dig into a little bit more as to exactly what this was and why this was occurring. Because it seems to be already there's this general discontent with the world and getting yourself into situations where he's in this case, the receiver of violence, but does not quite remember the tools being used around that. Well, that's either because he does remember or it happens so often that he actually doesn't remember. I don't know which one it is, but something that I'd like to get into there. Though this interviewer, again, fantastic job. Scott, what do you go on this one? All right, overall, something's not right here. This is, when you look at this, if you knew nothing else about this case or this gallery, if you watched this with the sound down to you, this is something's not right here. This whole thing, the information he's given out is just stuff he can fall back on. He's putting out so many things. He's putting out all this information. Well, all we have, remember I said that and they can fall back on that. He's creating time everywhere. This is, it's beautiful what he's doing. I see what he's doing. It's not beautiful, but there's a lot going on there. It's really intricate. Some of the things he's doing, he doesn't realize he's doing that, I don't think. We see a fake brow engagement again. And when he says, because she was drinking one night, et cetera, that chin to the single shoulder shrug thing, that makes me think that I think she was drinking all the time. And we're gonna see how this late night thing in drinking comes together in a little while. But when he does that most of the time, and I didn't realize it, I've said it before, Joan of Auro pointed it out, that when most, quite often when people raise that single shoulder shrug and the chin goes toward that, most of the time are quite often they're being deceptive. I think that's what we're seeing here. He's either not sure about this or he's making that part up to make sure that we know she's drunk every night. This whole thing is she's bad and I'm good. It's how everything is about how good he is and about how horrible she is. Birds of a feather, I'm all the time saying that. You know, they flock together. So if he's hanging out with her, he can't be the best guy in the world. He can start talking about his friend in a few minutes. You can find out what kind of guy that guy is. You're gonna see he's not the best guy in the world. He's got the worst friends, like you were saying earlier, Greg. He's not just hanging out with the bad crowd. You are the bad crowd. You're part of the bad crowd. Then we see a blend of two expressions. It's that disgust and anger. And it was on the part where he says it was late one night and on a lot to drink. That's where we're seeing the contempt. That's stuff, I believe you were talking about, Mark. And those things are flying around everywhere. But that's the first time we see a really good blend of those two. And then maybe her behavior when she was drunk at two and three in the morning really made him angry. And that's why we're seeing that when he talks about that. We're seeing the anger and we're seeing the contempt and the disgust on there. But I really think that contempt and that disgust is a combination of anger in there as well. Which makes me think he pops off pretty hard when he gets mad. He's liable to start swinging and just be a mean guy. I'll leave it there. Chase, what do you got? I'm about to agree with you a whole lot. We're seeing a lot more disparaging the victim here. It's what we said in the last video. And during his discussion of the charges that she filed, he only mentions some of the details being inaccurate or false. This is another red flag we tend to see in guilty people when they have a hard time calling somebody a liar outright. Were those indiscrepancies he was talking? Indiscrepancies he was talking about. They stole my line. That's the whole problem, dude. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. There's a lot of indiscrepancies in here. And he says, she ended up hitting me with a dog leash or something. Mark, I think part of what might be here is him decreasing the significance of the event. Like it was so minuscule that I couldn't remember it. There's double emotional accessing right here. It's the first time we see it, which is when our eyes go down and to the right. This is typically when we have emotional recall for events. This is a big deal because we haven't really seen it up to this point. And I would say, and you're about to see even more evidence for this, that this might suggest his need for control and power and this is potentially further supported by his choice of crime, just beating her to death and then setting the apartment on fire. This shows a level of brutality and physical violence that we very often see in criminals with a strong desire for power and control. And the arson could be a way to destroy the evidence, but it could also be a symbolic act of cleansing or erasing his actions for himself. And we might see what the answer is to that in a coming video. And he says, the next day I left, this means that she hid him with a dog leash, then he decided to spend the night. But he's trying to say that he tried to get away from the problem, which, you know, he's an idiot. So let's talk about some genes really quick. Let's talk about a gene called DRD2 and DRD4. These are dopamine receptor genes involved in the dopamine reward pathway. And these have also been associated with antisocial behavior and aggression in many studies. And variations in these genes might affect impulsivity and reward-seeking behavior, which maybe we're seeing here. We're definitely seeing him accuse somebody else of it. Both of the people that he's talking about making accusations of are about this thing. And we tend to do that. We tend to project a lot of the stuff that we're ashamed of on other people. Maybe we're seeing that, Greg. Yeah, a couple of things for me. First of all, let's talk about bad guys. Bad guys live among us, lots of them. And you don't recognize them because you never see the bad guy face, if that makes sense to you. And so when a person puts on their best face and we're seeing it, you saw him with a guy, now you see him with a woman. He had a bad guy face for a couple of minutes, some anger in that tightened upper lip. We don't see that yet. Just hang in there, because she's gonna do a good job of agitating him too. And we'll get to see some of that with him. But the bad guy face doesn't always come out until it's too late for people. And I also wanna say when we say he's hanging out with the wrong crowd, we're not disparaging this woman who was murdered by him because people get in bad relationships all the time that are good people, it does occur. What I'm saying is if you're kissing all your friends and being druggies and that kind of thing, you're probably not hanging out with them if you're a puritan. So just so you know. The other thing that is interesting, however, there's disgust when he talks about alcohol almost every time. And there's full blown contempt when he talks about her drinking a lot. That makes you wonder, Chase, you say it a lot and we always say, we are made of what we come from. I say we're an onion or a pearl and we just keep laying down things over it. If somewhere in your childhood, there's a whole lot of disdain for somebody who drank a lot, that can create a lot of later life issues with people who drink a lot if you don't deal with it yourself. So we have to start paying attention to him and saying, wonder why and. There's also a couple of really weird things he doesn't hear. Never, he's using strong words like never when he's talking about self. And then he uses words like or something when he's talking about charges for being violent. If you want to know how he looks when he's lying, let me show you and point it out right here to you because he does it outright lies here. He says, I never talked to her about it. And later we learn not only he talked to her about it, he recorded it on his phone. So he's lying right here. He is lying clearly. So if you want to see that over engagement, that romance or that happy face, all of that. And he moves into when he says she actually, he moves into a qualifier and then does a redirect. He says, she actually boom, boom, boom. Oh, hold on. I didn't actually talk to her about it. I was told not to talk to her just to watch him because you'll see he's trying to be smooth and polished and believable and friendly. He's going out of his way to be friendly to this person because he thinks she's believing what he's saying. He also does an uncharacteristic pause after she drank a lot and made some statements that were not true. And then does a hard eye lock like you believe me, don't you? There's a couple of others, but the one I want you to try, there's a strong request for approval early in this where you raise your brow to say, hey, you get me, right? Or approve of me, right? But he also tucks his chin and raises his brow. Try doing that and tell me that's a natural move. Something is going on in his head when he does that. So you try it and tell me what you think is going on in his head. One of those tape replays. So, but she had also filed charges against you. Is that correct? Well, she did, but then she went to the detective and said she wanted him dismissed. Was that because you had tried to talk her out of it? No, she actually, I was told not to talk to her. So I didn't. And she called me. And the detectives, I, you know, I guess they caught her because she, like I said, she drank a lot and she made a couple of statements that wasn't true. And for a long time, I told her, I said, I'm not coming back over. It's pretty much over. And I thought about it and I said, well, you know, it would be kind of nice to look good and go back, make sure everything is straightened out. So I did, you know? And during the process, she was saying that everything is going to be a lot better this time if you'll just, you know, give me another chance. But the detectives, you know, I'm sure they called her in a lie, you know, during the first time she was going to file the charges because she was drinking one night and it was late one night, but she had a lot to drink, you know? And so she hit, she ended up hitting me with a dog leash or something. It wasn't much to it. But anyway, the next day I left. As soon as I left, she texted me and said she missed me. And, you know, then later on she called me and said she wanted me to come back. I never went back. And then later on there was charges and or something, you know, the detective called me and I went down and talked to him and then he found out that there was some indiscrepancies in the case, you know? So I talked with Lenny Wilde's last week and then he also, in the court documents that were released last night, in those court documents it says that Lenny Wilde told police that because of those charges that Denise filed against you, both the sexual assault and the domestic assault, you told Lenny that you had thought about killing her because of that. No, I never told him that. I never, matter of fact, I never told him much about the case. I just told him, you know, I said, I said it bothers me that she would have done that. And he asked me, he said, well, why are you going back? Why do you go back around her? You know, he said, you shouldn't. But the thing about Lenny, there's been a lot of drug use on Lenny's part. He's been doing a lot of heavy drugs in the last couple of months and I've watched it progressed. And I've had friends say you shouldn't go around there, you know, and somebody pointed it out to me one day that he was on drugs. And I said, no, I don't think so. Well, later on I seen, you know, after going over there so much. Anyway, he's been on, you know, meth heavily. And so he's been wanting to get on the news media for he had some kind of idea that he was gonna come up with this scheme that would help him get some kind of, I don't know, he'd come up with this, I don't know, Devin's calls or whatever, where he'd get money in. And he had went to the news media a couple of times about trying to get this thing, you know, accomplished and talked to the news media about it. Well, I guess it never came about. Well, with him being on the drugs and stuff and then this case coming out, I guess maybe he saw this as his opportunity. So you're saying Lenny Wilde's lied to both us and the police in saying that you confessed to him and said that you had thought about killing Denise before? Yeah, yeah, I'm saying that. Everything that Lenny Wilde says, is it credible? It is not credible. And if they'd test him for drugs, they would find out that he was, you know, he's on drugs, simple as that. And like I said, he's went to the news media several times in the last couple of weeks and they haven't paid him no attention. And I don't know, you know, whether this, whether he thought, well, this is his opportunity to get in or not. But it sure popped up at a, you know, a funny time, you know. All right, Greg, what do you got? So let's start off by saying, guess what's still missing? Grief. We're talking about a woman he supposedly loved and he'll tell us later he loved. No grief, muscle, no engagement whatsoever. And in fact, not much downright eye accessing. This woman that you loved has died. There's been a fire in your house. There's no grief. There's no concern. There's not a furrowing of the brow. None of that. That's odd. What kind of people do that? People who don't have any negative emotions, don't know. So let's just keep playing along and see what we find out from this guy. But he's back to these big nods of trying to make contact. When we're trying to contact a person, we're trying to make sure they are on the same page as we do this. Yeah, that's data intake. Yeah, that's it. I'm approving, you said exactly what I mean. Yes, not. And then if you do this, that if you watch him, you'll see he nods his head in short strokes when he's trying to persuade and he goes the other way. Up comes another guilty language from the system. On this case, never is again. People that use words like never always to talk about themselves are interesting to me because I go, hold on. Is there any in between for you? Never and always. There's not sometimes. We don't hear that anytime in what he's saying here. There's self-amusement in this guy's face. And by that, I mean, all this upper face is smiling almost and the lower face isn't. We say Dupers Delight is that little break in the smile. And I think when you see Dupers Delight, what you're seeing is a person who can't contain themselves. And he's damn close in a couple of places here. He does a fluid redirect when he's asked about a question. He just moves off topic and just avoids it altogether. I call that fan dancing. You know, like the burlesque shows back in the old days where they would cover up nothing. You thought you were gonna get to see something and they were covering it up with fans. He's doing that elegantly as he dances around in front of us here. He starts to talk about Lenny. This is the only time we see any emotional eye accessing. Any, any, any. Nevermind this woman who's died in his house. He then frames the discourse again. You know, when I start, I usually say yeah. And or yes, and that puts a frame around what I'm saying and then that's all I got. That's the way I frame things. He frames by saying the one thing about Lenny, something about her. Listen, and now he gets the box of disparaging comments out and just starts to sling them as hard as he can. And he's got to call it the best thing he knows and that's meth. And he's doing that short headstroke. He's saying he's on meth, heavily on meth and then heavy on meth. And he's back to hard romance or in bugged out eyes. Look, this is, she's still on his side right now. So he's all lovey-dovey. He's all up on her, you know. Now he'll change in a couple of minutes and we'll see what he's got. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, everybody should have a friend called Lenny that you can just just go, well, you know, think about Lenny is and just act everybody with the whole Lenny problem. I mean, that's brilliant. The thing about Lenny and then immediate character assassination of Lenny, like that's pertinent. Well, we'll come back to that in a second. He says, she says, you told lovely question, great question, pointed, clear, simple. You told Lenny that you had thought about killing her. You told Lenny that you'd thought about killing her. A good answer to that would be, no, he's lying. That would be good. No, he's lying. And then something like, I've never thought that. Yeah, what he says is, no, I never told him that. Oh, so there's a potential that you thought about it then, isn't there? I mean, the potential you've thought about killing her, you just haven't told Lenny about it. Well, he's straight onto Lenny. The thing about Lenny and then straight into this character assassination. Greg, you say, no grief there, I agree. There isn't any grief there, but maybe he's welling up with anger for Lenny or maybe he's welling up with anger around being accused of this crime, which he, well, there's no anger. Either this guy has actually kind of relaxed into this interview quite well now from our first video. He's getting quite used to it and there's no grief and there's no anger anymore. We'll see anger coming up as this interviewer, excellent interviewer gets underneath, you know, the skin in this, into whatever he has behind that skin. You know, she gets in there, but there is very little extreme emotion or emotion of any sort. Hey, so really, really interesting. Chase, what have you got on this one? This clip is priceless. He's talking about all these charges that were filed against him and he goes, it bothers me that she would have done that. This is an extension of the calm demeanor that he's trying to convince you that he has here. I want you to imagine him saying this about these charges as if they were in fact false. He goes over to his drug addict friend's house to tell him that it bothers him real calmly. And then right on that, he's been on meth heavily. You see that little eyebrow flash again, Greg, you're talking about that. Just requesting, he's requesting some nonverbal response that the other person gets that piece. And there's some emotional accessing again here down to the right, and remember this when next time you're talking to somebody, eyes moving down to the right, some kind of emotional stuff going on. But this is at the precise point. Someone is developing a position of power over him. It's right when he's describing his friend going to the news media. And the moment the reporter starts into questioning him, watch how large his eyes get again. This is another unconscious attempt to look more innocent and like he's listening intently to her. So this reaction is so sudden because it's in the middle of a high stress lie. And I think there's a part here he says not credible. He's unable to verbally say it's all a lie. He even diverts back to saying he's on drugs again. And this is almost so bad it could be an episode of like law and order, this guy. Let's talk one more gene thing here. This is the COMT, the catacolomethyltransferase gene that regulates an enzyme that breaks down dopamine and another thing called noradrenaline in the brain. And certain variations of this in this gene might be linked to this aggressive behavior. It's been proven in some research, but a little bit more would probably be needed. But this gene is still very important. Scott, what do you got? All right, the more he throws Lenny under the bus, the more animated he gets. He's excited about doing that because he knows how important that is. And the reason he's throwing him under the bus is because he called Lenny and told him that he was thinking about killing her. Lenny's going, you know this guy called me and said he was thinking about killing her. So he's got to pull out all the stops and get a big bus and keep throwing him under it. And he keeps doing that. Like Greg was saying earlier, he just keeps throwing him under the bus. Keeps, that's all he's doing. It's like you were saying, Mark, it's just character assassination over and over and over. And he showed more emotion about this guy, saying he was going to kill her than he did about her actually being dead about being asked the question, did you kill her? He just, no, I wasn't me. And you know, no, I did not or whatever just goes right past it. No emotional and no grief. Like you were saying, nothing whatsoever. But he's really excited about this guy, Lenny, you know, the meth head. This guy of course has never done meth or he doesn't bring it up. You guys got everything. So I'll leave it there. One of those tape replays. So I talked with Lenny Wilde last week and then he also, in the court documents that were released last night, in those court documents, it says that Lenny Wilde told police that because of those charges that Denise filed against you, both the sexual assault and the domestic assault, you told Lenny that you had thought about killing her because of that. No, I never told him that. I never, matter of fact, I never told him much about the case. I just told him, you know, I said, I said it bothers me that she would have done that. And he asked me, he said, well, why are you going back? Why do you go back around her? You know, he said, you shouldn't. But the thing about Lenny, there's been a lot of drug use on Mitt Lenny's part. He's been doing a lot of heavy drugs in the last couple of months. And I've watched it progressed. And I've had friends say, you shouldn't go around there, you know? And somebody pointed it out to me one day that he was on drugs. And I said, no, I don't think so. Well, later on I seen, you know, after going over there so much. Anyway, he's been on, you know, meth heavily. And so he's been wanting to get on the news media for, he had some kind of idea that he was gonna come up with this scheme that would help him get some kind of, I don't know, he'd come up with this, I don't know, Devin's calls or whatever, where he'd get money in. And he had went to the news media a couple of times about trying to get this thing, you know, accomplished and talk to the news media about it. Well, I guess it never came about. Well, with him being on the drugs and stuff, and then this case coming out, I guess maybe he saw this as his opportunity. So you're saying Lenny Wilde's lied to both us and the police in saying that you confessed to him and said that you had thought about killing Denise before. Yeah, yeah, I'm saying that. Everything that Lenny Wilde says, is it credible? It is not credible. And if they're testing for drugs, they would find out that he was, you know, he's on drugs, simple as that. And like I said, he's went to the news media several times in the last couple of weeks and they haven't paid him no attention. And I don't know, you know, whether this, whether he thought, well, this is his opportunity to get in or not. But it sure popped up at a funny time, you know. What do you think of the people who are calling you, whether it's on social media, what have you? Lots of people are calling you a monster. What do you have to say to that? You know, they don't know the case. They don't know the case. They don't understand what's happening. They're looking from the outside in to be inside and involved. There's people that know and they don't know the whole story, but they know that the problems that I've been through in this case and watch me suffer. And a lot of them haven't spoke out yet. So they don't know the whole story. So what is the whole story? Well, I'm telling you, there's been a lot of alcoholism, especially on Denise's part. And a lot of different people she's been involved with. Do you think she was murdered? I mean, I do believe that. How I don't know, I don't know. I left, like I told them, I left the apartment complex that morning about three in the morning. What happened after, when I left, she was fine. She was sleeping, she was awake. She was sleeping, she was fine. Everything was good between us. If you could look at the camera footage from the night before when we were out, we were getting along great. We were laughing. We were not having any issues. All right, Chase, what do you got? He actually has an internal emotional response. This downright eye-accessing again to being called a monster on social media. This is kind of surprising, but I want you to think about this a little bit deeper. He's showing an emotional reaction to something he's unable to control or have any power over, something that is even taking power away from him. This is a big deal. We see this emotional thing all so far in this exact, all in all these exact instances. And he's saying they don't know the case. They're looking from the outside in. If he's innocent, wouldn't he be looking at the case in just about the same way since he wasn't there? Just a thought. And he says, there's people that know. When he thinks of these people who might have some control over the narrative, you'll see another perfect emotional accessing. These people with power over the narrative, you'll see emotional accessing the moment he mentions them. You'll see even more of these wide-eyed responses when the reporter interjects with a question. And this is more of the innocence and attention display that we talked about. One thing to note here is the effort to develop rapport is very obvious. But when, so far, have you seen a denial or an assertion that he's wrongly accused? So this semi-unconfident denial is kind of a delicate balancing act that actually requires some social intelligence. He's having to admit she might have been murdered, most likely because he believes he has to go along with the consensus. And then he also has to deny any knowledge of how it happened. So it's an interesting balancing act. So let's talk about some environmental factors here. Most experts agree that genes alone don't cause somebody to become violent or any social. Instead, these genetic predispositions can interact with environmental influences like childhood trauma or neglect to increase somebody's likelihood of these behaviors. So this kind of interplay between genetics and environment is often referred to as gene-environment interaction. That's the thing there. We'll talk about some more in the next one. Scott, what do you got? All right. He pretty much continues what he's been saying so far. What's interesting, though, is when he starts locking eyes with her, watch how you can see his pupils dilating these. I've paid really close attention to that. And that's the first and second question is when you see that, when he's laser focused to see those pupils dilating just a little bit. When he says a lot of people say that she's been involved with, he says a lot of people she's been involved with. That's when we see, again, that single shoulder shrug and that chin toward that. So he's trying to make her look really bad here. And again, that's a huge flag for deception when you see that happen. At the same time, we're seeing that dooper's delight, which is similar to me. It looks almost like, as Mark was talking about earlier, like kids look that way. This kind of started to look like a child. Quite often when you've had trauma and you'll revert back to that almost all the time. You'll not live in that world, but your behavior will be similar to that. And I think maybe there was something with his parents or something, because he looks like a little kid talking about this and he shouldn't. He shouldn't be almost giddy during all this. Then he says he left at 3 a.m. Now, what I was waiting for was this one to say, how often do you leave the house at 3 a.m.? Do you do that every day? How often do you leave at 3 a.m.? But she doesn't ask that. And another thing about that, about leaving at 3 a.m., he doesn't say, well, I was asleep and woke up. If you leave that early, see, shoot man, I got up at 2 30 because he had to get up before 3 a.m., not just when he left. So earlier he talked about 2 30 when she was all, when she'd been drinking and was drunk and all that and was making him mad. And now he's talking about leaving at 3 a.m. That must be their window for their drink time, drinking time or something, 11 to 2 30 or something. And maybe that's, obviously that's probably when this happened, since he says he left at 3. But he doesn't say, I got up and then, you always hear about people getting up at whatever time before they did something, especially in a situation like this. Mark, what do you got? Okay, so look, just as he says, I don't know the full case. I came into this analysis, not knowing what crime has been committed. I'm learning it as we go along. So really, I'm there just analyzing what I've got here. The interviewer here says, a lot of people on social media are saying, you are a monster. Okay, so I'm one of those people on social media. I'm on social media right now. This is one of those people on social media. Here I am. And I don't know what he did. And so I don't really know if he's a monster or not. But based on my analysis so far, and I would say something of an opinion, you're gonna see analysis and opinion together here, I would say what he certainly is, is a lying idiot. He's definitely lying, I would suggest. And he's definitely an idiot because he thinks he's really good at it and he's really bad at it. He's got that full Dunning-Kruger effect going on. He thinks he's better at something than he is. And Chase, I think it's lovely to get this analysis at the same time of the genes and the environment. And of course, we all get dealt the hands that we get dealt. And there are some people who get dealt awful hands in life that they're just not in control of. Maybe him, maybe others as well, hands as bad, a little bit less bad and some way, way worse. But what you have to remember is the majority of people on the planet actually don't commit violent acts even though they've been dealt that hand. And so for me, character, there's personality and people talk all the time about personality, but then there is character, which is the choices you make given the hand you've been dealt. And I would say, and the choices that you make, they're totally under your control. The hands you have, maybe not, but the choices you make are under your control. And this lying idiot is making, I think, some terrible choices. And there's a combination there of analysis and opinion, I would say. Greg, what do you got on this one? Well, we share an opinion. This guy's an idiot. I've said idiot about two people in the entire history of our show and it's been the past three weeks. One was Leticia Stout and this guy. I think they think they're smarter than they are. And he has been successful to get this far, to get the scene of the crash by being around people he might have been smarter than. But again, this woman is doing a great job and he is not smarter than she is. It's an interesting kind of twist here for me because if you watch him, again, let me point out, no grief, no grief, no grief. The only emotion we see is when he's attacked, when he's called a monster, when he's talking, chase to your point about other people that have some control. Well, that fits narcissism. When you, you'll go into fits of rage, you have shallow emotional depth, you go into fits of rage about being insulted or attacked or that kind of thing. So, okay, I'm not surprised by that. He's self-amused at the beginning of this. You can't miss that whole upper face is all smiling and the lower face is under control and he's pulling taffy with his eyes by looking and turning his head, pulling for approval. Like, yeah, I'm pretty pleased with the fact you fell for my last comment where he was disparaging his friend. When she calls him the monster, when she brings up monster, we get the guy from the very first video back. Look at that retracted smile, tightened up her lip. And I call that, if he's making hard eye contact, that's a predatory smile. If a guy is standing around looking at you and going, and you're a woman or anybody, you're probably gonna go, I don't want any part of that person, whoever it is, because it's awkward. It doesn't look natural. It looks like the person is trying to smile when they are actually there for some kind of aggression. But when she gives him a chance, he softens back to persuasion. When she asks, what's the whole story? She gives him a bone and he softens again and goes back to her. His brows up and he's short nodding, persuasion again. But after this last disparaging comment about a lot of people she has been involved with when he's talking about Denise, I think is her name, watch this, this is the single best example of what I call request for approval we've ever had in the show for one reason. And when I say request for approval, we don't do it intentionally most of the time, it's instinctive. When I'm looking at you and say, you get it, my brow goes up. When I'm asking you for approval before I move on in the story, I do it. When I'm trying to get something passed, you all do it. What's funny with him in this one after he disparages, he stops, his mouth drops open slightly and he does a hard request for approval. It rises just right there in the center. And what's interesting is it's abandoned. It's after the sentence, there's no words. It's awkward and it is a perfect example of you believe me, don't you? And then you see that hard pupil dilation you point about Scott. He's navigating language at the very end when he's talking about we were getting a long great no issues and he shrinks. Look at the line behind his head. We got another Stephanie Lazarus. Look at the line behind his head and watch him shrinking as he goes through it. Well, he doesn't have any baggage. I want you to remember these words that he says we got a long great and there were no issues. Remember that as we move through these next videos. One of those tape replays. What do you think of the people who are calling you whether it's on social media, what have you? Lots of people are calling you a monster. What do you have to say to that? You know, they don't know the case. They don't know the case. They don't understand what's happening. They're looking from the outside in to be inside and involve. There's people that know and they don't know the whole story but they know that the problems that I've been through in this case and watch me suffer and a lot of them haven't spoke out yet. So they don't know the whole story. So what is the whole story? Well, I'm telling you there's been a lot of alcoholism especially on Denise's part and a lot of different people she's been involved with. Do you think she was murdered? I mean, I do believe that. How I don't know, I don't know. I left, like I told them, I left the apartment complex that morning about three in the morning. What happened after, when I left, she was fine. She was sleeping, she was awake. She was sleeping, she was fine. Everything was good between us. We had, if you could look at the camera footage from the night before when we were out, we were getting along great. We were laughing. We were not having any issues. Just one more thing. Because police say that she had suffered traumatic injuries and so you don't know how those happened. I do not. They told me that too. And I was surprised. I was just sitting there and shocked when they told me. I was sitting there, I was like, you know, I know nothing about it. Did you love her? I did. Do you still? What's that? Do you still? I did still love her. And I haven't had time to grieve. I haven't, you know, I sat back there and I haven't been charged with this. You can look at it and say, well, he don't care. But when you get charged with a murder, you kind of focused on that. And you're not grieving like, you know, you're not thinking, there's been times I've sat back there and think she's gone. You know, that I almost wanted to call her on the phone and say, but I'm thinking she, wait a minute, she's dead. You know? And but people don't understand that, you know, to be charged with something, all of a sudden you don't know of her death. And now you suddenly being told of her death and you've been told that you've done it. Was that shocking for you? Extremely. I mean, I just, I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just wanted to withdraw from the world. Hey, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, a couple of reiterations of stuff we've seen before. Where's his sorrow? It's not there. Lots of targeted eyes now on the interviewer. Just as Scott, you were saying those, or maybe it was Greg, those predatory eyes are coming out more consistently now. Yes, if I see those, if you see those, I would want to start being careful. It's nice that there's that screen between the two of them at this point. I would quite like that screen or a long table between me and him if he's got that kind of eye contact with me. Chase, what do you got on this one? This is hilarious watching this. I wish I would have seen the pupil dilation. I watched this on my phone on an airplane. It's good. Hard to see. Hard to see, it's good. Yeah. There's emotional accessing here. You can see his eyes go down to the right into emotion, and this takes place the precise moment that a police officer is questioning him and he's in a lowered position of power in that interaction. Innocent people don't need to tell you that they got the information from the police. Guilty people are more often described any details about the scene with lots of caution because they don't wanna mix up their true knowledge with the facts of what they were informed about. This is a big difference here. And when he says, I do still love her, there's question repetition, there's no emotion, no description, and no change in tone. It's the same tone from talking about murder. Murder and love have the exact same vocal tone. And he's afraid to use the word murder, he uses the word death instead. So innocent people who he's pretending to be would be an emotional wreck. And they would also be trying to convince the public that there's a murderer out there who needs to be caught. Let's talk about another factor here. Chronic stress, substance abuse, and some other factors can further disrupt these neurotransmitter balances, which would exacerbate issues like violence and antisocial behavior. So as an example, some chronic overstimulation of the dopamine system can lead to a decrease in dopamine function overall, which can contribute to this condition called anhedonia, which is a lack of pleasure or just interest in life in general. It's a very common feature in something called anti-social personality disorder. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so let's talk about a couple of things first. No grief, no grief. There's one emotional accessing point Chase, you bring up, and that has nothing to do with her. It has to do with the police telling him something. No grief, no emotion. There's, let's go back a second, and then we hit this last thing with her, but there's shock at traumatic injuries. It's feigned shock in that brow. I think it's either that or it's a combination of that and recognition that yeah, she was damaged pretty badly. One or the other, can't really tell because those look a lot alike. I know nothing about it. Is his first reaction? Not really, we had this happen. No emotion, none. Oh, and by the way, now I understand why his grief muscles aren't involved because he hasn't had time to engage them. That's the biggest sack that I've seen in a long time. When you feel grief because of loss, all that stuff is innate in the being. It occurs. You don't have to sit around and go, oh, hold on a second, I need to grieve. I need to grieve. Grieving, yes, it's the process, but grief is a thing. Grief overwhelms you and blankets you and grieving is how you get through that process. That's how it works. This guy is just using words he's heard. I don't think he has, I think he has lack of emotional attachment to people or things, maybe he has to things, I don't know. But look, so now we know that the reason he's had this problem is because he hasn't had time to grieve. He also hasn't had time to do an emotional thought about her, not one. We see contempt, disgust, derision, not emotion, ever. There's no residual grief in his face, so he's never felt it. Even when he says she's dead, there's no emotional accessing. And then he says it was extremely shocking. We always talk about residual emotions. If it was extremely shocking, I would tell you it was extremely shocking. Not, it was extremely shocking. Scott, what do you got? All right. The police said, when the police said she suffered traumatic injuries, again, we said eye lock and the pupil dilation. And so she says, so you don't know how those happened, how the traumatic injury happened. And he says, I do not. Another non-contracted denial. He says I was sitting there in shock when they told me. He doesn't look like he's in shock. He doesn't look shocked at any of this. Doesn't even look like this, bothers him even a little bit. Nothing about her being killed. And he says he was in shock when they told him. He would be a lot quieter. There's a section here where we hear fighting facts here in a second. But, and it's on the I love you or I loved her. When he says that, it goes, yeah, I loved her. It goes, you hear fighting facts there, which indicates a lot of times when you see others might be deceptive, doesn't indicate it, but it's one of those things that comes along in the cluster of other cues that tell you that he may be deceptive. So there's no shock. There's no any remnants of shock or horror over that. The first thing out of his mouth wouldn't be, I know nothing about it when the cops tell him that. They say, here's what happened to your girlfriend. We, you know, she's dead and there's a fire and we think she got her, or what is she had traumatic injuries that killed her. You wouldn't say, I don't know anything about it. You'd say, what, are you sure? What happened? How did this happen? Did they catch who did it? Or did somebody do, what, how does this, you know, you'd have questions, you all would be saying. It wasn't me, it's right out of the gate. You know, that's kind of, that's assuming they would think that, because you're going to think the way you think, you're going to think they're going to think that as well. And then we see more of that little fake concern is Brown, lots of duping delight in here, dupers delight. But I think the interviewer does a fantastic job of asking the question and just sitting back and listening and he gets uncomfortable because now it's dawned on him what's happened, I think, that she's coming for him and he hasn't realized it. She's asking all these questions that slowly maturely or pulling these little bricks off of his wall of all this confidence he's had so far, all the steepling and all that thumbs up and everything. And she's pulling that thing apart brick by brick. And he's just looked up and saw that most of his wall is gone right now. So he's starting to get a little concern going on here. And then, let's see where I've got so much stuff here. And then when he talks about wanting to withdraw, well, you want to withdraw and you're supposed to be grieving but you want to be on TV too, huh? So what's that about? You got enough time to come out of that deep grief you're in and be on TV? There you go. I think that says a whole lot about this guy. I'll leave it there. Is that everybody? Oh, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, okay, let's have some old school, honest to goodness, evolutionary behavioral psychology. So why do we yawn? Why is it this big thing that we all do? And why is it contagious? Well, here's what we notice about our dogs is when they're moving often from excitement and out of that excitement, you'll see them yawn. It's because they're changing their state. And so why do we yawn? Because we're often changing our state from being lively to sleepy. Why is it so big and why is it contagious? So everybody can go to sleep at the same time. It's really useful as a family, as a group to go to sleep at the same time. Here's the issue though. You still need some people to stand on guard. If everybody's asleep, then who's gonna protect you from all those terrible things in the night? You need just a few people who don't yawn like you. They don't go to sleep the same time as you. They don't pick up on those signals. They can stay awake or get up early in the morning. They're not quite social like you. Well, you only need them for a certain amount of time and then we domesticated wolves. And then the dogs would be outside of wherever you were fortified in and they would wake up or stay awake during the night and they would warn you. So there is an advantage to having just a few people who don't yawn like you. They don't have the same emotions as you at the same times. So what world is he in that he would be waking up at 3 a.m.? Waking up at 3 a.m. Early, early, early as one of our contestants once said. And there are no tigers in the back of his car. Well, the tigers are maybe somewhere inside of him but he's waking up early, early, early. This is the time 3 a.m. for certainly for the culture that he's in that within the circadian cycle is when most people are in their deepest sleep. So if you get up at 3 a.m. in the morning, actually your immune system depresses at 3 a.m. That's why if you've got something, you could call a bug or a virus of some sort. It's usually about 3 a.m. that you end up getting up and being sick because the immune system shut down at that point. So why is he up at 3 a.m.? Is it because he has some job that he does at? I mean, there are outliers always. I'm doing this job at 5 a.m. at 4 a.m. at 6 a.m. Is it because of that? Is it because he's an insomniac? Or is it because he's just plainly antisocial and he doesn't keep the same hours as everybody else? And he hangs around with the people who don't keep the same hours as everybody else and they like to be up when everybody is in their deepest sleep because it gives them an advantage. This 3 a.m. situation again would hint for me around a potential antisocial, behavioural or antisocial personality disorder. But this is behavioural. He's getting up at times when most people are their most vulnerable and least active and he isn't the guard dog in this play, in this situation. He's the predator in this situation. Interesting. There, that's all I got on that one. One of those tape replays. Because police say that she had suffered traumatic injuries and so you don't know how those happened. I do not. They told me that too. And I was surprised. I was just sitting there and shocked when they told me. I was sitting there, I was like, you know, I know nothing about it. Did you love her? I did. Do you still? What's that? Do you still? I do still love her. And I haven't had time to grieve. I haven't, you know, I sat back there and I haven't, I haven't been charged with this. You can look at it and say, well, he don't care. But when you get charged with a murder, you kind of focused on that. And you're not grieving like, you know, you're not thinking, there's been times I've sat back there and think she's gone. You know, that I almost wanted to call her on the phone and say, but I'm thinking, wait a minute, she's dead. You know? And, but people don't understand that, you know, to be charged with something, all of a sudden you don't know of her death. And now you suddenly being told of her death and you've been told that you've done it. Was that shocking for you? Extremely. I mean, I just, I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just wanted to withdraw from the world. This is my father's name. Why did you leave your permanent three in the morning that morning? Well, I had a job that I was supposed to do. I had some things actually that I wanted to do early that morning and the job, what I thought would have started at five o'clock, but I had some things I had to do before then. But as it turned out, the most, you know, I wanted to get everything ready. I had to go gas them. I had somebody I wanted to speak to, but because, you know, I haven't, you know, since me and Denise had been having the problems, my finances kind of let them suffer a little bit. So I kind of wanted to try to straighten some of that out. But you didn't end up going to work that day, correct? I did not. I did. So from 3 a.m. until 4 p.m. when you were arrested, what were you doing in that time? Well, from 3 a.m., I left the house. I went gas stop. I went gas my car up, which should be on film at the store. From there, I went to... Lenny's? No, I did not go to Lenny's. You never went to Lenny's? No, I went to Lenny's, but not at that time. Okay. From there, I went to see a friend because she usually, well, she wakes up and goes to work early. And so I went there. Of course, she wasn't awake yet. I waited for a little while and she never did come out. So I don't know if she was going to work that morning or not. From there, I left there, went to the job site to see about this job. From there, I waited for a little while and it was gonna be a little 5.30, I think. So from 5 o'clock, I wound up, then I went to Lenny's and then I decided not to go that day. I said, well, I might wait till later. Go talk to Denise again. And I understood, you know. So you spent that whole day with Lenny? Yes, most of it, from about 5 a.m. to... So you say Lenny was the one who was watching the Facebook Live, not you. So if Lenny would have learned about your apartment being on fire and that somebody died in there, wouldn't he have told you that? You would have thought so. You would have thought so, but he didn't. Well, the fact was I went to sleep there and sometimes I do, you know, because I've been going over there and when I woke up, they were gone. And when I called him, he said he was, I can't remember where he was. Did he sound scared of you? No, no, he never acted scared. Are you mad at him? I am, I'm very angry because I feel like, you know, if he has some kind of agenda the way he wants to get to the news team, don't take my life for it and use me for it, you know, to get whatever you need. I know you're having, you know, he's having financial problems and stuff like that there, but to use me to get to the news media, that's pretty low. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a really good one because everything he's doing is internal conversation. You know, when we talk about internal conversation, we're saying a person's looking down into their left and they're having a conversation about what the answer should be not looking around their head for what the answer is. His happy face is gone and he can't finish the sentence. Remember we had that smile before the real smile and the bug eyes and overly attentive. This guy can't finish a thought at this point. His sentence is ramble. He even looks away. Now, when he thought she was supporting him this question, he couldn't break eye contact. You saw how riveted to her he was. Now that he feels like he's being attacked watching break eye contact. And now that she isn't doing his bidding, he says, I had things I needed to do. Like what? I would have said, like what? Give me a list. It's three in the morning. What are you doing? What are you doing? Shining shoes? What are you doing? You left your house. What are you doing out away? One other thing that's a little creepy. He's talking about an old girlfriend who has moved back here is what he's talking about. And he was going by to see her. But did you listen to what he said? He was very specific. And he said, I was waiting for her to come out but she never did. Well, that's a little creepy. I'm gonna go hang out in your parking lot and see if you come out. And then I'm gonna say hi to you. What is that about? This guy's got a whole bunch of creepy in him when I listen to stuff like that. So I just wanna go, wait a minute. I would ask that question. When she isn't doing his bidding, then the logic of his sentences starts to fall apart. I left to start a job at five but I had some other things to do. This is the only place I don't like her questioning style. I want her to say, like what? Then you hear this long inhale from him. That's something we haven't heard yet. So first time she's kind of got him on the ropes. And then he wonders and uses words that mean absolutely nothing. I would ask him who you're going to see. But when she gets to that point, he hits when he realizes that he's in a bind, he doesn't adapt her face touches, mouth blocks. When he says, I did not go to work. I think he realizes that he's in a bind and I'll just leave it. The last thing is the most important one. However, he said, I was going to talk. I thought about going back to talk to Denise and iron this stuff out. What is he ironing out? Was it one video ago? He said, we had no problems. Everything was good. What is he ironing out? I think he's starting to come apart and you see it because he starts to turtle again because of these hard questions. By turtle, we mean his neck shrinking down into his body and he's making a smaller target. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, all kinds of hands being dealt him and situations occurring that he is maybe as Chase has been certainly saying or certainly hinting towards make him feel a little less powerful. And how does he respond to that? Well, he goes and stalks somebody essentially which is to hang out outside their house without saying, hey, by the way, I'm just outside your house right now. I'm coming over to visit or I'm coming over. I'm just going to be outside your house. Don't be surprised if you see me out there. This essentially is a power play. And so what does he do when he's not feeling powerful? Well, he tries to take some kind of power in a way that most of us, most reasonable people would say, well, that's an antisocial way of doing it because you haven't told people that you are around. You haven't told people about your proximity. So body language, nonverbal, you know, and behavior. There's being somewhere and then there's indicating to people that you're going to be there because if they can't see you, if they can't see you, sometimes it's social to say, hey, I'm over here. You might not be able to see me. So you don't surprise them and you don't have one over on them. This is another example, I would say, of antisocial behavior. Chase, what are you going to do? Here's a pro tip before you move on. Don't hang around outside my house at 3 a.m. without me knowing you're there. It's not healthy. Chase, imagine three of us. So I'll give you some background into how we work as a behavior panel. Greg usually picks the videos. Scott usually cuts them up and sticks them in our little Dropbox link like a day or two in advance. And I went through these yesterday. And for this video, I was in a layover in Atlanta, which is very limited. And I only had the opportunity to do this on audio. So I was walking from one gate to another gate pretty quickly. And I listened to this on audio and I took notes by pausing it and using my AirPods to dictate a, you know, when you say, hey, you know what? I can't say the name, make a note to self. Here's my notes from yesterday, audio only. Never saw this video clip until just now we kind of walked through it. There's hesitancy. There's a loss of fluency, repetition, vagueness, spikes. There's lowered confidence, a loss of usual detail. There's pronoun shifting. He uses the word they to describe Lenny, they, they. Then there's storytelling. He says, and then from there, of course, so I, then I. Then there's an increase in softening statements, the sort of kind of, you know, I think there's attempts to reduce the credibility of the witness and inability to deny the witness statements or call them liars. And there's an inability to call a witness deceptive in general. So that's just listening to it. That's without me looking at the video at all. Let's talk about the next factor here. This is early exposure to violence. When a child is exposed to violence, it can disrupt this process called neuroplasticity or if you're a super nerd, we would call that synaptic plasticity and lead to the changes in the brain that increase the risk of mental health issues and antisocial behavior. For instance, exposure to violence, even in the media, even on TV or videos in a lot of cases can lead to chronic activation of the body's stress response. And this can interfere with this development of this part of the brain right here, the prefernal cortex. And this is the part of the brain responsible for decision-making, most importantly, impulse control and emotional regulation. And as a result, these kids might struggle with impulsivity, aggression and antisocial behavior. Scott, what do you got? All right. Well, then she says, why leave it three in the morning? This is completely different behavior that he's using here, Greg, he brought this up than we've seen so far. This is completely different here. Lots of micro expressions we're seeing, disgust, fear, anger, all just floating right through all those really quickly because he's thinking fast. I don't think he was ready for it to turn on him, but I think he realized that back when I was talking about the pulling the bricks out one at a time, they were seeing all kinds of classic cues of deception. See that quick, deep breath, fading facts, verbal stumbling, repeating the same things over and over, the same facts, quote, unquote. And then he's looking right down the barrel of the camera, just as he's doing this stuff like Mark was talking about earlier. And this problem here is the structure is so weird with all this because he's only rehearsed this in his brain or in his mind. He hasn't said it out loud. So as it's coming out, he's trying to edit and get everything right, structured right, but it's still, he's still stumbling over it. Then he says, I had to gas up where somebody had to speak to. This is all at three o'clock in the morning. Had to go talk to somebody at three o'clock in the morning. He's gonna wait for that girl to get up at three o'clock. He goes over to see me at three o'clock. Apparently the early bird gets the meth. Status. Status. So the interviewer, I think he did a good job which he said from three to four, what were you doing? And that's when he immediately covers his mouth. I'm all the time doing that too though, but he immediately covers his mouth because he's thinking on the fly at that point. He wouldn't expect him to get specific with him because he thought all he's gonna do is come out and tell his story about what he thought about what happened and his view of things. And then all that stuff about earlier where he was talking about, oh, you can see us on the camera there. You can see us, you know, having a good time here. I've got people, all that camera talk has stopped. He's not talking about there. You can't, you know, it doesn't say, well, you can see I was at the minimart here and then from whatever it was, I was getting gas and you can see that, none of that. We're not hearing that anymore. And now he spent all day with a meth head at this point. And he doesn't mention what time he went to sleep until she starts asking him about it. He doesn't say I went over to Linnies and went to sleep. He said I went to Linnies and she starts asking him questions and to get out of those, he says, I went to sleep. I do that sometimes when I go over there. Then apparently Linnies watching something on Facebook or something that's showing this guy's apartment on fire. And he goes to this guy's house and the guy never says anything to him about it. He never says, he's never watching his phone and goes, amen, your apartment's on fire, dude. And he, what, sorry? Yeah, your apartment's on fire. You'd be freaking out, dude, your place is on fire. You left something on or something, nothing. Doesn't he just, and when he asks, she asks him about it, he says, you know, you'd think somebody'd tell you if that had happened. You know, it's crazy talk. Then he starts again, he just starts pooping all over Linnie, just starts throwing him under the bus and getting about what a meth head he has and all that. So this is, at this point, it's just a circus for me, looking at that. All right, is that everybody? Yeah. Finally, okay. One of those tape replays. Why did you leave your permanent three in the morning that morning? Well, I had a job that I was supposed to do. I had some things actually that I wanted to do early that morning and the job, what I thought would have started at five o'clock, but I had some things I had to do before then. But as it turned out, the most, the most, you know, I wanted to get everything ready. I had to go gas up. I had to get somebody I wanted to speak to. But, because, you know, I haven't, you know, since me and Denise had been having the problems, my finances kind of, let them suffer a little bit. So I kind of wanted to try to straighten some of that out. But you didn't end up going to work that day, correct? I did not. So from 3 a.m. until 4 p.m. when you were arrested, what were you doing in that time? Well, from 3 p.m., I left the house, I went gas stop, I went gas my car up, which should be on film at the store. From there, I went to... Lenny's? No, I did not go to Lenny's. You never went to Lenny's? No, I went to Lenny's but not at that time. Okay. From there, I went to see a friend because she usually, well, she wakes up and goes to work early. And so I went there. Of course, she wasn't awake yet. I waited for a little while and she never did come out. So I don't know if she was going to work that morning or not. From there, I left there, went to the job site to see about this job. From there, I waited for a little while and it was going to be a little 5.30, I think. So from five o'clock, I wound up, then I went to Lenny's and then I decided not to go that day. I said, well, I might wait till later, go talk to Denise again and iron this stuff, you know. So you spent that whole day with Lenny? Yes, most of it, from about 5.00, 5.00 a.m. to... So you say Lenny was the one who was watching the Facebook Live, not you. So if Lenny would have learned about your apartment being on fire and that somebody died in there, when did he have told you that? You would have thought so. You would have thought so, but he didn't. One of the fact was, I went to sleep there and sometime I did, you know, because I'd been going over there and when I woke up, they were gone. And when I called him, he said he was, I can't remember where he was. Did he sound scared of you? No, no, he never acted scared. Are you mad at him? I am, I'm very angry because I feel like, you know, if he has some kind of agenda, the way he wants to get to the news team, don't take my life for it and use me for, you know, to get whatever you need. I know you're having, you know, he's having financial problems and stuff like that there, but to use me to get to the news media, that's pretty low. So you had nothing to do with Denise's murder? No, not at all. But you could be spending the rest of your life in here for that? Well, I hope not. I hope not. You know, I hope when, you know, all comes out because like I said, that night before, you know, if you look at the camera from the bowler of the chubs, we were not having no issues and we just went out the weekend previous to that and stayed the whole weekend together. No issues. But was she drinking that Wednesday? You said that's a problem for you, for you guys' relationship. Yeah, she was drinking and I was kind of letting it go, you know, because I didn't want, I didn't want no problems, you know. So that wasn't a breaking point for you that night or anything? No, no, I mean, I let it go the weekend before. Matter of fact, I, you know, I acted as if I wanted to drink with her. I just wanted, all problems resolved. I didn't want her angry with me. I didn't want no issues and if I, you know, I wanted to kind of go on with my life also. So have you been talking with police of who you think could have done this? They have not questioned me on, you know, they very little, you know, it's been very little of they, it's been more so with this, you know, I'm the focus here. Well, he's angry with her. And so we're gonna, you know, he has to be the one to do it. I don't know that there, I don't know what they're thinking because I've given them a lot of information to go on. I've given them the fact that at what time I left, you know, and they said the fire started, I don't know, 9, 9.30 in the morning. Well, I was nowhere near there that time. Okay. You said this morning that you wanted the judge to make your bail reasonable. What were you hoping that your bail was going to be set up? Well, I was hoping it wouldn't be a million cash. I was hoping that, you know, it would be less amount that I could, you know, get somebody to, you know, set up the property or something where I could get out where I could, you know, kind of move around and kind of maybe get some more information, especially get my phone back. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, if you want to see those predator eyes, what we're talking about there, the predatory gaze right at the end there where he talks about his phone, I want to get my phone back. There's that predator gaze, like there's something on that phone, something on that phone that he needs to get hold of and he is projecting that as well on other people. I hope the police haven't got my phone and monkey around with it and moved, you know, created evidence or moved evidence. So there's something up there. I wanted to kind of go on with my life. Well, he is the focused on this, isn't he? He is definitely the focused. It's all about him. It's all about his life. There's a dead woman here that he's meant to be still in love with and, but he wants to get on with his life at this point. So look, there's a lot of mismatch. There's a lot of incongruity around this classic for lies and deception. As we always say, any one of these things on its own is not enough but there's such a cluster throughout all of this. It's very difficult to see this person as anything else than a lying idiot. Chase, what have you got on this one? There's some emotional accessing again. Eyes down and right. Guess where it's at? The total loss of control, spending his life in jail. And then he says, I acted as if I wanted to drink with her. This is just hilarious at this point. This is just an idiot. Nobody's perfect. We've all got our flaws. We all have mistakes. And when somebody tries too hard to appear flawless, it tends to raise more red flags than it dispels. It can come across as disingenuous, manipulative, which can damage someone's credibility rather than enhance it. And we saw this in the Amber Heard case. The innocent party openly acknowledged their flaws and the guilty party tried desperately to be perfect, flawless and every possible mistake that they might've ever made was because of somebody else. So he says the fire started at nine. He forgot that there was also a murder. He didn't mention that. He's honing in on the details in a way that you'll only see in guilty people. He's skipping over the murder and the assault. And this is an unconscious stress avoidance response that you'll see in like 95 plus percent of interviews like this after a violent crime. He is even so stressed, he's unable to say murder throughout the entire interview. And Mark, I have it in my notes here. Something is on that phone. Something's on that phone. His tone, his posture, his eye contact all change when he talks about that phone. Let's talk about one more factor here, parental substance abuse. Growing up in a house where one or both parents are abusing drugs or alcohol can lead to kind of an unstable environment. This can affect a child's emotional and cognitive development potentially leading to antisocial or violent behavior later in life. And again, just like reading behavior, these things need to occur in clusters and not individual little spikes. Scott, what do you got? All right, I think the thing about the phone, I think he's got so much video of them being nice to each other on there because he talks about that, that he talks about where he's got her on there, somehow recorded talking about bad, doing something bad to him or being against him. And I think maybe what he's gonna do is say there's something missing from the phone. Cause remember, he brings that up. He says, I hope they don't lose anything from that. So maybe he's gonna say, there's a video on here of us being just wonderful. And she said that, I'll love you forever, I'll love you. So maybe that's the tactic he's gonna take on that. Maybe that's why supposedly he's so interested in that. But you guys are probably right. There's something on that phone or there's something not on that phone he's pretending like it was on the phone. So now he's back to that camera talk. You can, he can prove where he is. You can even prove what the demeanor was of his girlfriend while they're in the videos. That's what, that's, he's getting tight on that now. He's gonna use that for himself. And then, and this reminds me as he goes around, he's making, he's repairing all these relationships with her and with Lenny and fixing all these things. Do y'all ever see that movie where Biggie Smalls goes around, he's, you know, fixes everything with everybody before he gets killed right before that. And he goes around and makes sure everything's okay with all his friends. It's like he knows he's gonna be killed. But anyway, in the Biggie Smalls movie, that's what he does. That's what this reminds me of is that. And then he starts elongating these words. Like he says, the problem resolved and then angry with me and no issues, that kind of thing that he's thinking and he's making sure those things get across. But that, but when you start and elongating those words like that, you're doing that to get your point across at the same time you're thinking because again, his structure for this thing is just horrific, trying to tell the story. And then he adapts with that scratch there at the end. And then I think we see the greatest turtling we've ever seen of all time on here when he's talking about the million dollars for his bail. He starts turtling up really, just looks like a little turtle, it looks adorable when he's doing that. And then oddly enough, as he starts steepling, he's adapting at the same time with his, he's trying to look confident, but we know he's not because when the thumbs go up, that usually indicates or denotes, you feel good about, you feel positive about what's going on, confidence in what's happening. But as he's trying to adapt while he's trying to do that at the same time, everything just, I think, goes sideways on him there. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm especially interested in what's on that phone too. So I would love to see what's there. Well, the interesting piece is in the next, the next video is gonna tell us what's on that phone that he really wants, which is interesting. Now, one part of this, she missed a question. Did I, my heart hurts because I want to ask the question so badly when he says we were not having any issues. Well, hold on, you just told me that you were gonna go home and iron out what was going on. What the hell is it? Is it fish or meat? We want to know, just I would stop and say, explain that to me, just like that. It forces him to use words that he has not thought of and you guys are all on every time he thinks of, he has to get to a word he hasn't thought of, we see stress, we see Senate structure change, we see chase to your point, we see that eye accessing down to emotion because he's losing control. Again, no grief. Oh yeah, cause he hasn't had time to process it. That's the way it works. However, there's that short head stroke that he uses always when he's going to say no issues. He's trying to persuade this short, yeah, yeah, yeah, there were no issues, but his face is more flush than we've seen to now. Mark that predatory smile as I called it earlier is back, eye lock, straight lip across the top, really awkward, and there's a hard swallow when she's asking him what time he left and when the fire started. Wouldn't care, I wouldn't care, except I've watched this guy for now nine videos, something like that, and he has not done that yet. Why do you do it here? Why? It's a deviation baseline, that's all we can say. And now look at his head compared to the lines on the blocks behind. It's about an inch lower, which means he's turtling to your point, Scott. He's turtling on down there, and he'll get lower before this is gone. No smiles, and this phone is the key. I don't know what's in there either. I think he's, I think you're probably right. He's not smart enough to realize that when he says they took something off my phone, all I have to do is prove the record. I mean, forensic science is a beautiful thing, and when you got done in Kruger badly enough that you think you know how that works and you missed that, something's really up. Smartest guy in the room, he's in the wrong room. One of those tape replays. So you had nothing to do with Denise's murder? No, not at all. But you could be spending the rest of your life in here for that? Well, I hope not. I hope not. You know, I hope when, you know, all comes out because like I said, that night before, you know, if you look at the camera from the bowler of the chubs, we were not having no issues. And we just went out the weekend previous to that and stayed the whole weekend together. No issues. But was she drinking that Wednesday? You said that's a problem for you, for you guys' relationship. Yeah, she was drinking. And I was kind of letting it go, you know? Because I didn't want, I didn't want no problems, you know? So that wasn't a breaking point for you that night or anything? No, no, no. I mean, I let it go the weekend before. Matter of fact, I had to, you know, I had it as if I wanted to drink with her. I just wanted, all problems resolved. I didn't want her angry with me. I didn't want no issues. And if I, you know, I wanted to kind of go on with my life also. So have you been talking with police of who you think could have done this? They have not questioned me on, you know, they very little, you know? It's been, it's been very little with they, it's been more so with this, you know, I'm the focused here. Well, he's angry with her. And so we're gonna, you know, he has to be the one to do it. I don't know that they, I don't know what they're thinking because I've given them a lot of information to go on. I've given them the fact that at what time I left, you know, and they said the fire started, I don't know, 9, 9.30 in the morning. Well, how was nowhere near there that time? Okay. You said this morning that you wanted the judge to make your bail reasonable. What were you hoping that your bail was going to be set at? Well, I was hoping it wouldn't be a million cash. I was hoping that, you know, it would be less of a amount that I could, you know, get somebody to, you know, set up property or something where I could get out or I could, you know, kind of move around and kind of maybe get some more information, especially get my phone back. Because my phone has a lot of information in there. Don't police have it? The police do have it. The police do have it. And I hope that there's nothing gonna be deleted out of there or any tape, you know, evidence that I've kept along the way, you know? I was thinking about that and wondering about that because we took a lot, we took a lot of pictures and a lot of video on that phone, you know. Some of it, you know, was to where, you know, where where the assault happened, I'd questioned her on the assault and taped it. Okay. Of all the charges that she tried to press on you? Yeah, well, she started to, she never, you know, then she called him and said, and at first I thought, you know, she may have been lying about that, but the detective did tell me that she called and told him that we were back together. So then the texts that we were shown from Denise's son, did she make up those? Have you ever laid a hand on Denise Anderson? Well, the only thing was that the one night that she hit me with the rope when she was drinking, I did push her off pretty heavy. And I told the detective that. I said, I wasn't light on it. I said, it was three in the morning. I was sleeping. She was up drinking. I said, and I said, you have to kind of put yourself there. I said, it ain't, it might not be right, but at the same time you wake up, somebody hitting you, you kind of might feel, I don't know, a little bit combative or, you know, you don't really know what's going on. And so that happened. But the next day, right after that, I told her, I said, I'm leaving. I said, because it's getting physical. And we don't need, I don't need physical, you know, violence, and I said, I've had enough problems with this. And as soon as I left, she text, she said, I miss you. Probably 30, 45 minutes after I left, I don't even remember, but it wasn't long. And I showed the detective that. And some of the things that she told the detective initially, she told me she didn't even want to go to the police. She said her son, you know, wanted her to go to the police. And so she stated that she did, you know, finally end up going to the police. And, but she, she, she stated a lot of stuff during the time. And it was, I guess an attention getter. All right, Chase, what do you got? When he's talking about being hit, and now it's a rope and not a dog leash. And then just invoking this drinking thing. Just, I want to invoke the drinking element. And that helps me win every argument. There's some emotional accessing. Why would there be emotional accessing? This is a single, tiny point in time where he was temporarily out of control. He was temporarily not in the top of the hierarchy in that situation. And we see emotional accessing the moment that he mentions it. And with somebody who's obsessed with control and power, I really, this reporter, this interviewer is fantastic. But I wish she would have made him feel weak right here. Greg constantly talks about this called ego down questioning. She could have just said one line that I think would make him explode. And all she would have had to say is, why were you so afraid of her? It seems like she was the one in charge. That's it. Just that little line, and he would have flipped. And you would have seen a different human being there. Let's get the next element here. Childhood abuse or neglect, experiencing any kind of physical, emotional, or other kind of abuse. Could have some long lasting impacts on mental and emotional wellbeing. And these can lead to all kinds of stuff, including antisocial behavior and violence in adulthood. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, first of all, a little behavioral principle of mind. Not every behaviorist likes this principle. It can rub them up the wrong way. I quite like it, which is once is a pattern. If you see a behavior once, chances are you're going to see it again with that person unless they have the ability to moderate and control themselves. Or if you see that behavior once, chances are they've done it before as well. You just weren't there for those moments. Now, of course, you'll be able to tell me outliers to this and of course you'd be correct with your outliers. But as a good general behavioral principle that can help you, once is a pattern, I believe to be a good principle. Now, he says, I don't need physical violence. I've had enough problem with this. Oh, so we have a pattern then, don't we? We have a pattern here. Yeah, he doesn't want any more of this because he's had enough problems with this. Okay, there's a pattern going on. I think there's a number of patterns going on between the victim here, Lenny. His whole gang are in a little bit of a pattern. It's just, you know, he doesn't have some of the controls over himself that many other people who've been dealt the same cards as him that Chase has been talking about, okay? And terrible cards to be dealt, most likely, but other people are able to moderate their behaviors. And so it doesn't become a pattern. You know, think about this. He does say at one point, you know, we've never had problems like this before. I think he says it further on in the interview. Yes, well, so murderers don't murder everybody. That's the thing about most people are able to moderate their behaviors. And even if they do a murder, most of them don't go on to murder everybody. So just because you're saying, look, I know this doesn't normally happen with me. Yeah, of course, of course. Of course that's the case. That's all I got on this one. Scott, what do you got? All right, there it is at the top of this one where he's talking about it. Well, I hope they haven't lost anything off that camera. And just any of the things that the videos I have on there. See, that's, I think I'd like to look at this case and see if he actually went in with that. The lawyer said, well, something's missing from this. Cause, but then again, this guy's not the smartest guy in the world. So maybe he thought that was a technique he could take and it would hopefully work if he needed to get out of us. If they got him, if they got him boxed in somehow. See lots of illustrating when he's talking about the phone. Again, he goes back to that and just, boy, he starts moving around. He's really excited there. And again, that smiling, supposed to give the interviewer the impression he's confident about what he's saying. He's not a good actor. Mark, you really haven't said that yet. No, I'm really surprised you didn't say this guy though. I know he's not a good actor. So I kept waiting on that and didn't hear it. I thought it was wound up with an idiot. I kind of, you know, ties it together. But he's a lot of illustrating with his head. It's moved from his hands now. He's trying to hold those still, but his head gets to going. And then he's back to steepling. And now he acts like 3 a.m. in that big of deal. Like it's not that big of a late. So that's how he approaches that now. But it's late, but 3 a.m. That's not that big of a deal. And then his thumbs are steepling again. And that lets us know he's still trying to be confident. He's trying to be confident. I don't think he knows that that's what that tells people. I think he assumes that's what it means. So he's trying to do it. It's just not working for him. Because it's telling, we're seeing all the things that say, no, you're not with that. Because his hands are squishing around. But at the same time, we're hearing fading facts as he goes along talking right in there. And let's see what else. And then he gets confident because he's back and throwing her out of the bus again. You know, that's when he starts getting pumped up again. So this guy is probably not a good guy. He can. But then you just tell by looking at him, he's probably not the greatest guy in the world. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you, Mark. The guy's an idiot. And idiots will be confident when they shouldn't be. And I think Navarro is a guy who says, when you're steepling and you put your thumbs up, by the way, it's Joe Navarro. When you put your thumbs up, it means you're showing confidence from Steve. Oh, that story. Yeah, somebody was telling us earlier, somebody in the comments and said, why are they always quoting Joan of Arc? So I guess we should probably enunciate a little more clearly just to make that point. But he starts off with, remember, I said, when he's confirming, he has big nods. When he's persuading, he does short stroke nods. Watch this very clearly in here. When he's saying yes, the police do have it. Now, here's that lie I told you in the very beginning where he said, hey, I never talked to her about this. But here he says, I recorded her telling me about the restraining order or the two charges. Well, one of the others true. In video two, he said he did not talk to her about it. And yet here he recorded it. Okay, okay, there you go. And then he, I mean, he doesn't say no ever when he's asked, did you do this or did you do that? He simply reframes what he wants to talk about. And what he does here is elegant, a very elegant reframe or redirect and trading guilt. What he does is put a picture, a box around what he wants to describe. And then he fills it up with bad things about the other person. And then he softens what he did. And if you want to see a really good example, I'll bet she does it all the time. The only thing was, remember we talked about the only thing about the thing about the only thing was the night when she was drinking heavy and hit me with a rope, I pushed her off pretty heavy. Okay, she hit me with a rope, but I pushed her off pretty heavy. But the law got involved, it was probably not pushed. It was probably a little more violent than that. But his is softened hers is blustery. That's the mark of narcissism to me. Anything negative you did to me, it's gonna be profound, anything else. I was a little bit combative. He softens at every turn and mark my favorite line in the entire thing is exactly that I had enough problems with that. Let's talk about that. That'll be the only thing I want to talk to you about. But he realizes she's got him boxed in and he comes back with that predatory smile. Guys, there's not a whole lot that I've seen anywhere else that would make me think somebody was more guilty in this guy. This has been a good exercise in lying up to now. One of those tape replays. Cause my phone has a lot of information in there. Don't police have it? The police do have it. The police do have it. And I hope that there's nothing that'll be deleted out of there or any tape evidence that I've kept along the way. I was thinking about that and wondering about that cause we took a lot of pictures and a lot of video on that phone. Some of it was to where the assault happened. I had questioned her on the assault and taped it. Okay. Of all the charges that she tried to press on to you? Well, she started to. She never, you know, then she called him and said, and at first I thought she may have been lying about that but the detective did tell me that she called and told him that we were back together. So then the text that we were shown from Denise's son, did she make up those? Have you ever laid a hand on Denise Anderson? Well, the only thing was that the one night that she hit me with the rope when she was drinking, I did push her off pretty heavy and I told the detective that. I said, I wasn't light on it. I said, it was three in the morning. I was sleeping. She was up drinking. I said, and I said, you have to kind of put yourself there. I said, it might not be right, but at the same time you wake up somebody hitting you, you kind of might feel a little bit combative or you don't really know what's going on. And so that happened, but the next day, right after that, I told her, I said, I'm leaving. I said, because it's getting physical and we don't need, I don't need physical violence. I said, I've had enough problems with this and as soon as I left, she texted, she said, I miss you, probably 30, 45 minutes after I left, I don't even remember. But it wasn't long and I showed the detective that. And some of the things that she told the detective initially, she told me she didn't even want to go to the police. She said her son wanted her to go to the police. And so she stated that she did finally end up going to the police. But she stated a lot of stuff during the time and it was, I guess, an attention getter. There's one more thing. Mark, how do things look to you so far? What do you think we've seen? So far, I think, and it's a reiteration. You've heard it from me time and time again. This from my analysis and a personal opinion here, this is a complete lying idiot of the scale that I don't think we've seen before. Will we see his like again? I kind of hope so. But unfortunately, some dreadful crimes go along with it. So hopefully not. Chase, what do you think? Mark, I'm a little depressed. We haven't got to this point yet. With you mentioning Shakespeare, Disney or the Brothers Grimm. But we did get to yawning and how that connects to the domestication of waltz, which is pretty good. So as a behavior profile, this guy, this obsession with control and power is just a key driver here. This need for control and manifest in these ways from emotional manipulation, verbal abuse, physical violence, it's about power for him. And when that power is challenged, he will explode. So the act of beating her to death is an extreme and horrifying demonstration of this need for control. It's an assertion of dominance in the most brutal and final way possible. And setting the apartment on fire could be seen maybe an attempt to mentally erase his actions and to regain control over the narrative in the course of maybe evidence. With this calmness that he has here, it's common tactic used by people with these traits. Remember that when you see someone wearing a mask, the mask is usually the exact opposite of what that person is trying to hide. All throughout your life. Remember that, Greg? Yeah, a couple of things. You talk about a mask. I think what we see is a great example of a person who has a mask when he's talking to somebody he thinks he can persuade. You see those short nods, the long nods when he's doing data intake. And yet we also see that predatory smile. We can see the difference. Those two faces are very powerful. And if you go back and you watch the very first video and you start looking at the ends of these videos when there's a freeze frame and you see this guy's face, you'll see that predatory smile and where he's trying to make eye contact and it just looks awkward and horrible. Would imagine that that's what his person sees. Let's run down a list of things that I noticed. Not much emotional attachment. Nothing about her except for disparagement. No grief. He has a reason for that, of course. I think what we're also seeing as a guy who Dunning Kruger is his lifestyle in my opinion, Mark. I think he set the fire because he thought he was smart enough to cover up something he did on an impulse. And I think what we're seeing here is one of the best examples of what lying looks like and how it can be different when you're talking to this person versus that person. And I would venture to say this guy probably has a lower opinion of women than he does of men and he thought he was working her and clearly wasn't, she was working him. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think this whole thing reminded me of when you train interrogators, when they first go in for one of their first times this is what it looks like and sounds like. Because they want to be engaged, they want to be, but they know they've got to stay back and they know they've got to be quiet. That's what that reminds me of. It's like a light interrogation before you get in there and learn how to do it and get all the, so if you're watching this, the woman who did the interview, get ahold of us. We'll train you up, we'll hook you up because you're good at that. Yeah, you're good at that. So get ahold of us, please. If anybody knows her or tell her, that's what we do. We'll show you how to do that. We'll give you some good tips on how to go, but you're doing great. You're doing really well. Great. That's what that reminded me of was that. And it's just a great example, I think of just an idiot trying to lie his way out of something and he's not very good at it. And he's just giving us gifts to be able to use to show everybody else what it looks like when you're not telling the truth. All right, thanks for another good and fellas and we'll see you next time. So what do you got?