 Oh, let me change the lighting here. Oh wait, that's the wrong camera and that's why I got it. That's better. There we go. The laptop. The laptop camera is my one fail and buying this particular laptop for Linux. It wasn't clear that it was meant to be controlled by a proprietary Windows driver. So, okay. Really have a lot today because I think all of us, both of us have been busy with other things. Some of them governance related but not things we discussed in this meeting. Yep. So is there any reason not to go ahead and merge the charter guidance into drafts. And so, I want to end. Only because right now it's, it's failing the Netlify check. Oh, okay. Right. And we haven't been able to figure it out because Carolyn's been on vacation. Yeah, so as soon as Carolyn comes back and tells me I suspect there's some header stuff I need to add to this file to make Netlify happy. I just don't know what it is or specifically why it's failing and how to fix it. So I suspect it's probably, it's probably not a big deal I just need Carolyn's help to do it. I'm going to look at the others and just sort of guess at what's wrong. But I think it's probably better just to wait so that we don't do something that breaks the stuff that she's working on. And that's kind of it. My, you know what my governance time for the past two weeks has been taken up with so likewise. And actually, it occurred to me that, you know, messing around with elective that there's a second way that the CNCF could effectively be multi tenant elective that would probably be more manageable for them. Yeah, then spinning up individual instances for a project that's going to use it. Of course that might also be administrateable for them mostly I just need to finish getting it packaged up and transferred. We, we ran into a hitch with transferring ownership of the elective IP to the CNCF, namely that the dot io TLD is blocking domain transfers. I heard that from someone else someone else was saying that. Yeah, the dot io TLD has always been kind of questionably managed it's one of those things where the UK kind of looted that domain from the island that owned it. And it's in the hands of someone we don't actually know who now some shady contractor. Wow. I've stopped registering new dot io domains and CNCF registered elective dev but then we need to transfer all the certificates and everything over and I just haven't gotten around to it. Yeah. Wow. So yeah. The way. So that's what that's kind of waiting on because it would be nice to offer that as a resource to projects. Yeah, for sure. So much easier than the other things. Yeah. Yeah, I mean we had little tiny growing pains around like the, you know, getting the directory structures named and things like that. But even with the little growing pains, it was still way easier than tracking down all the email addresses and managing that and dealing with the bounces Oh my God. Yeah, the. So, let alone the fact that saves is increasingly being used for spam. And, and as a result, it's on a lot of people's block list. The. So, yeah. The. Yeah, I mean obviously. We, the nice thing about doing it for a K native is that we've had an opportunity to actually find some of the additional sort of missing bits. Yeah. Like the fact that you couldn't mix, initially couldn't mix directories between non-electo and electo elections, which I fixed. I feel like it should deal with formatting problems a little bit more elegantly. And I've been working on that, you know where if a candidate's profile isn't formatted correctly should refuse to display the auction entirely, which is what it's doing now. Should just not display that. Yeah, candidate. Yeah. You know, and a bunch of other sort of little stuff. During the internship we focused on getting the core voting behavior working correctly, which was the important thing. Exactly. And now it's a matter of adding exception code for all the various ways that people can break it. And is the intern still working on it or is the intern gone. Occasionally, he's got a real job now. So, okay. I think we pushed a fix this week, though, for, for one of the things that I identified so nice. I mean, but it's one of the reasons why we choose this is it's a flask app. So, when we get it transferred over and we people start using it it's going to be very easy to get fixes. Yeah, the Even people who don't particularly do much Python can handle flask. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well that was the choices we offered the internships was it could be either Python or go. Because among our team of three mentors those were the two languages that all of us knew. Yeah. Because I mean obviously a JavaScript thing would have also been okay from a public perspective. But we only had one of us who felt we knew JavaScript enough to mentor it so. I actually do a lot of Python but it's all it's all more on the like data side. So like I know I know the bits about Python that involve like gathering and manipulating data. And those are the books that I know. Why don't you look at flat flask is pure MVC. So the functionality components really are completely separate from the presentation components, which is is good for back end people like us because I'm sure I would need help as if I have to fix the CSS or something. Yes, which I am just no good at at all. No, I'm, I've broken things in really terrible ways. Editing CSS files. Oh my god the my I had to update my online store for pottery. I just went through this long thing where I was trying to change the typefaces ended up breaking the store entirely had to revert everything gave up. Yeah, that's surprisingly easy to do things like that. The people try to tell me CSS is not real program. Like yeah okay great you fix it. If it's so easy you fix it. So. All right. Cool. Well if we don't have. Do we have anything else outstanding. I don't think so I think that's the charter that's the only. Yeah, I mean I have other stuff to do like integrate charter statements into the templates, but I have not been able to get to that. And it also feels premature before we well, except we're going to merge charter at least as a draft. Yeah. I'm also hoping that Carolyn is back this week because I was just going to ask you when she gets back. I don't know I just pinged her in slack, because it would be really nice to get the website live before it could come. I'm going to be afraid that we actually missed the window for that already because any CNCF staff are going to be poorly available. Yeah. But she looks like she's online. Last week I think that had a little palm tree. Okay, her status so she might be she might be around this week. Okay, the. One thing I'm going to start a discussion, and I'll just ping you in slack when I do it is, and this is kind of more related to the other working group is trying to come up with a short list like 10 or 12 metrics that all projects should look up because the problem is the various places that we have guidance on metrics cast sort of a widen because we have a metrics thing that you wrote up and I want to get more specific, because I'm working with some new projects now. And they're human bandwidth constrained. And so I really wanted to sort of narrow it down to hey, if you're an early stage project. You know, here's this sort of list of metrics, the auto really care about right, you know, so it would be like, you know, new contributors who don't work, you know, new contributors with a subset of new contributors who don't work for your sponsoring company, and that sort of thing to add on to that document. Yeah, because we could we could edit that document to be edited to be a little more focused, if we, if we wanted to. The trick is figuring out what those particular statistics are. I popped over to the chaos project to see if they had any advice. They did have a recommended list of metrics there's 140 metrics on it. Well that's not a recommended list that's all of our metrics. So the person who works on the chaos project all the time. Yeah. This is weird so I can't actually find the project health one that I did. Because it was in contributor growth but it's gone in the right place, so contributor strategy. And it was in contributor growth. And there was other stuff that was in there right. Yeah, there was. Where is it all. I don't know under website. Yes, it's under website. Should it be. Works for me, I don't care where it is really. I would. It does kind of press the urgency of getting the website online though because made the documents much harder to find. Yeah. I don't know why I'm so excited about being up. Once the website is up it doesn't matter because people are not going to be looking at the repo. Except us. Yeah. So is it website. There I found it. Yeah. You actually got a bunch of these here. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited about it. I'm excited about it. I'm excited about it. I'm excited about it sort of a start right because obviously. The responsiveness metrics are critical ones for yourself performance. Yeah. I picked the ones that I thought most projects would need. And I tried to keep it. I tried when I wrote this document. So it's not the chaos laundry list of all the metrics you could possibly ever. Ever use. I tried to keep it really focused on. What I thought projects should care about. You know, I think it's a little more than 10. Depending on how you, how you count them. Well, some of these things are not metrics. Like, do you have a security release procedure? It's not a metric. And. There are no. I'm feeling about this. It is a metric. It is something that you measure that you make decisions based on. It's not a metric from the standpoint of. Something you can get automatically from get home. Yeah. I mean, actually, you know, honestly, for a more mature project, one of the things I would be looking at is the frequency of security releases. Because if you see that increasing. Then it shows that you have a quality control problem. The. So. There's things like, you know, for example, you know, commits PRs and issues or commits PRs and issues remaining steady or increasing over time. So. It doesn't really, the problem I have with recommending that is it doesn't tell you a whole lot. Because there are all sorts of reasons for those numbers to go up or down that don't tell you anything about. That. Whose information to the project is ambiguous, right? Issues could be going up because more people are using the project. Or they could be going up because you have a quality control problem. Yes. So I would like to recommend things to people that have a more determinative answer, like. But the metrics always require interpretation, right? I mean, this is the thing with the other remaining steady or increasing over time. If they're increasing over time and you expected them to remain steady, then there's probably something you should look at. If you expected them. You know, increase over time and they're declining, then that's also something you should look at. But they, they all require interpretation. I mean, this is, this is the, this is the tricky bit. And this is the part that, you know, everybody wants just like, I don't know the. The canonical list of metrics that I, that I can use, but depending on the. Just depends on the project. Yeah. And the size of the project and what you're trying to achieve as a project and where you are in your maturity life cycle, like, you know, a sandbox project would expect to have very. I would look at very different things than I would look at a Kubernetes. Because it's a different, just a different phase of the life cycle of the project. This doesn't help you any. Yeah. But there are probably some common things that we could probably. Summarize this in a way that, you know, if you have to measure. Five things. These are. These are a good place to start and what they might do. And we could certainly do something around that. And actually. Yeah, I'm seeing more little things. I want to add to a lot of these, like, for example. For a project that has an original sponsoring company. It really is important. Assuming that the project wants to broaden their contributor base, which presumably they do if they join the CNCF. Yeah. It's critical to actually kind of split a lot of these projects into sponsoring company, non-sponsoring company. The, which dev sets. Doesn't really help you do. Which is something to actually think about. Knowing the back end that would be hard. The. So. The, you know, and sort of other things like. Some of these things don't come from dev stats, but one of the things that somebody can manually keep track of is. Missing expected release dates. Because one of the problems I see projects getting into is, is each releases later than the previous release. And that is caused by a variety of systemic problems. Well, let me know if you want some help on the, on the metrics on picking the ones that. Make sense. And whether we might do it, do we want to do it? Is this part of this doc or is a. Separate companion doc. No, I think it's a part of this doc makes sense. I also just while we were talking, I think Carolyn and ask her to have a look at that full request. Okay. Oh, did she speak up? Not yet. Nope. Okay. Cool. Well, that's it. Yeah. Happily. Take the extra time in my evening back. Yeah. Like usual. Yeah. Like usual. Hey, I sent you that question about that fork in chat the other day. If you get a chance and can introduce me to somebody that would be cool. The one that you don't want to think about. Oh, right. Yeah. I need to find out who the heck is dealing with that. So. I will ask. Yeah. I don't honestly know. I know that we use it for a couple of things, but I don't know who's in charge. Okay. Yeah. I think it's going to be somebody to talk to you. That'd be cool. So yeah. Okay. All right. Take care. Good evening. Bye.