 So we have about 25 to 30 minutes now for questions, comments, any other reflections. So we have two people handling the mics. So I see a hand there. And so please introduce yourself and address who you have the question for. Hi, yes, my name is Jonathan Hall. I'm an assistant professor at Uppsala University, the Department of Peace and Conflict Research in Sweden. I just have a couple of comments. I was just sitting back and reflecting on some of the connections between your different presentations, which were very stimulating and interesting. So I'm thinking about the last presentation and the case of Indonesia, and thinking about the stories we tell, and how things have changed over time, and reflecting backwards on the presentation in the middle, thinking about the framing of new wars. I wanted to just bring up in this context and really question the framing of the presentation in that way. I completely empathize with the drive to recognize the immediacy and importance of the work that we're trying to accomplish. But sometimes I worry that the framing, in particular of new wars, is actually somewhat undermining that. And at the same time, really question that paradigm given what we know from extent research on this topic. Just giving you an idea and reflecting on the last presentation, it is simply the case there are many massive episodes of violence against civilians, obviously throughout history, particularly during the Cold War. Indonesia being an important example of that. Nigeria, I'm thinking about in historical cases, during the Cold War, Pakistan, Cambodia, Sudan. These were massive episodes of violence. At the same time, if you think about war deaths as well, they were dramatic during the Cold War. You can think of, obviously, the Korean War. You can think of the Iran-Iwak War, just Vietnam War. These dwarf what we see in the current period. If you just look in the 1990s, you see a peak. You see three peaks, really. You see a peak in the early 90s at the dissolution at the end of the Cold War. You see another peak in the late 90s. And you see a current peak since 2013, 2014, a new peak. But all of these trends are actually on the decline. Now, this varies across space. So in certain regions of the world, we see more intensity. One should always remember that massive violence against civilians tends to be coupled with civil wars, not always, but they do. So what I take from that, I'm sorry, this is a long comment. What I take from that is that when we look back on history, I wonder what stories we're telling ourselves. Does this undermine what we're actually trying to do? An example being, during the Cold War, it wasn't really the ideology of the conflict per se, the local conflict that was perhaps the most central issue to why we saw so much violence and the character of the violence we saw during that period. But it was actually the ideological contestation of the great powers, and in particular, the amount of resources that they pumped into these local conflicts that made them so explosive and so violent. What I fear today is that we're seeing this, it could potentially become this again. It doesn't mean that it already has, but what you see today, for example, in Syria, is a contestation between important powers. So I'm just pointing out that perhaps the narrative could change in order to help us facilitate the goals we're trying to achieve. One last comment, if you have time. Could you just keep that a bit brief? Yes. Because give an opportunity to others. For Olga, just a couple of thoughts. The issue of does exposure to violence affect women's, for example, acceptance of wife beating? This was a finding that you had. And it was right, the period of six to 10 years old that you found this in, and you wondered why that was the case. I thought of recent research on the ontogeny of preferences, how they develop at developmental stages. Research by Bauer, for example, shows that in the ages of, say, six to 10, you have the development in childhood of egalitarian preferences. But this, when people are exposed to violence, can be coupled with greater bias towards outgroups. And what's interesting is that what you're finding like the actual support of wife beating could be a type of parochialism where you support in-group norms that have developed in that conflict situation. So you might be interested in looking at that Bauer piece. And the last thing for you was when you look at the exposure to violence in the Households and Conflict Network indicators, you seem to conflate exposure to violence with the effects of exposure to violence. So the actual, did you lose income, for example? It's not whether you were exposed to violence, but did you experience a loss? This, I think, is a problem because if you try to think about interventions, we can intervene to promote, to give resources. And resources can be useful to reduce the stress of that shock. So it's nice to, if you could disentangle those in your research, I think that could be interesting. And there's research that could help you do that from conservation of resources theory, but that's all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you. Carol and then I think Yuka had a question. Thank you. I'm Carol Newman from Trinity College Dublin. And I have a question for Marcus just on the interventions that you were working on in Uganda. So it seems that this program has a lot of different things going on at the same time. Now, I haven't read the paper. But I'm just wondering, is there any specific aspect of it that leads to each of these different outcomes or is it an overall effect on each of them? So I guess, I mean, it's important to know what the mechanisms are and how things are, what is affecting what. On the other hand, if it works, it works. It doesn't seem that it's that expensive an intervention. So I'll just be interested in hearing more about the different mechanisms underlying that experiment. And I also just have a more of a comment, I guess, for Mariana, just in relation to the videos that you were talking about. I think that economists take some time to catch up with the other disciplines in the social sciences. But there is some nice evidence coming out on the impact that role models have. In particular, we've got a project in Uganda that uses role models through videos and looks at kind of inspirational stories. And we're finding huge impacts on quantifiable outcomes, objective outcomes. So perhaps there's a literature there that we can talk about later too. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Jukka Birkela from University of Tambere here in Finland. And also I'm affiliated with UNU wider. I suppose as an economist, I'm also, it's easier for me to ask questions really regarding the presentation by Marcos here. So I would have a couple of questions. So first of all, I missed the message from the meta-analysis slide you had. So what's the purpose somehow to compare this to returns from other business skills training programs which have been evaluated? And then I would like to hear a little bit more about the rationale for the programs. So these were targeted to fairly young girls. And one of the alternatives would be to incentivize them or their parents to continue schooling rather than becoming self-employed. And finally, do you worry or do you look at the potential spillover effects on others within the same regions? Because that could have an impact on your cost-benefit analysis if there are displacement effects. I suppose some of the other outcomes that you have which are pertinent to life skills, et cetera, I mean, would be less problematic in that respect. Any other questions at this point? Okay. I had one myself which I think I could address to the whole panel and then you can all answer in sequence. So I've been quite interested in the effect of these overlapping aspects of one's identity because you don't just identify yourself as a woman. I mean, you could be a Muslim woman belonging to a certain ethnic group. So I wonder if you all have any reflections based on not just what you talked about today but in your sort of body of work on what's the importance of these overlapping identities, especially in more heterogeneous mixed societies, particularly in fragile contexts. So if you have any reflections on that, I'd be happy to hear more. So Marcus, perhaps you can start with your responses first and then we go in this order. Yeah. Okay, well, then I'm gonna hold off on my answer to your question because... Oh, red means go. Okay, I'll hold off on my answer to your question because I need to think about it some more. Carol, so it was a very good question. The Brax logic was we have a good theory as to why this all goes together. There's the space, there's the life skills and they're all necessary and the vocational skills. They're all necessary. So they wanted to test it as a composite. Inserially, and as you pointed out, it's not very expensive. So it wasn't like we could say, well, this costs really a lot. Inserially, it is being unbundled because now that they've seen the effects from Uganda, now they're curious to answer your question. Early results are not conclusive. So I think the Ebola really messed up the implementation. So I think it'll be a bit of a bit of time before we have the answer, but we're trying to answer your question. The safe space versus the skills, the different skill trainings. You give it to come to your questions. Yeah, so sorry, I rushed through that. And you also raise some other points that weren't even intended to be included. You can compare these programs to a range of different programs. What I was comparing them to that there are active labor market training programs. And there the costs line up. The effects in Liberia are much stronger, which raises I think an interesting question which we can't definitively answer is that in a post-conflict environment, do these things have more of an impact? So that's totally open. This evidence is consistent with that, but it's not conclusive. You could compare it to business training programs, which I wasn't doing. There I think the literature basically shows worse effects for women when they're powered, which isn't very often. Those studies tend to have samples that are too small to get gender differences or maybe even overall impacts. I think there's a new generation of literature coming out that will show different things, but it's still early yet. So I think compared to either of those, the Liberia case looks good. And then the final thing to compare it to is cash transfers. And I haven't done that math. The Uganda case is interesting because they were in school 80% of them and they stayed in school. So these are jobs they have around school. So it's compatible with schooling. It doesn't increase, 20% were out of school. They said they wanted to go back, but they didn't. So clearly it's not enough money or whatever other barriers keeping them from going back to school. So it cash transfers, conditional cash transfers would have higher enrollment effects, for example. So different benefits to think about. Potential spillovers, the effects I was showing you for Uganda are for the average girl in the village where the program was. So it's not the participants, right? And we don't have a way of precisely untangling the spillover effects, but just looking at the data, it suggests the benefits were pretty generalized. Now the program in Uganda was very carefully crafted so there wouldn't be negative economics spillovers. It was based on sort of market gaps. Liberia, it's individual level data. So again, we can't answer this question of displacement. So there I think it's more of a concern to me, right? But in Uganda, I think the gender dynamics in those villages changed. That we know from the boys and we know from the girls as well. So there were spillovers. It's just, you would need other methods to say something useful about them. Yeah, I think I'll also utilize the space to throw a question at Marcus, but you don't have to answer it right now. I'd be interested in knowing how many of those girls were ex-female soldiers. There's a colleague of mine in Turku, Leena Vastapu, who's interviewed over 100 former ex-girl soldiers in Liberia. And basically one of her findings is that they were left out completely in the any recovery programs. And I wonder what was the percentage in your case. That would be really interesting. And I can put you in touch with her because she has some really, really interesting findings. What did those girls then do? Yes, thank you for the role model video point. Definitely something I'll be looking at together with some of my local university partners because we're basically hoping to do the videos also to not only to be shown here, but literally making a public discussion going about the complexities of peace and so on locally. Of course, there's a bit difference. There's a, I mean, the whole video concept can be problematic as well because it definitely has an urban middle-class bias. So I wouldn't, I'd be really, really careful in just using such methodologies when pushing for change. I mean, we're not yet there digitally to do that. In terms of the question of overlapping identities, definitely really, really important in the case of Archer. I can't really maybe summarize it in any easy ways, but just to say that in terms of what you mentioned about the identity politics and this kind of like the ideas about womanhood and reactionary politics, definitely plays itself out also to religious minorities, but also in terms of other, in other ways there's a, like I said earlier, there's an urban rural divide in that that some of the moral policing, for example, in the case of Archer is definitely urban biased. So let's say that the space is available for being a woman, for example, maybe much more loose when you walk out. So there's something interesting about the post-conflict urban development. How does that change your possibilities and so on? But that's just one example. The other one, of course, is that do you even recognize that the females wear combatants, first of all? I mean, so there's a whole, and the ranking in the hierarchies of that, like who gets benefits and so on. It's not only about gender. Definitely has to do with other hierarchies. Hi, let me respond to Jonathan. Appreciate the reference. Maybe I'll get more information from you later. And you asked about the economic impacts of violence in this particular question. We didn't, I mean, we attempted to disentangle the impact of this economic effects of violence on child in the study, but we didn't go really far enough because there was a lot of impact in the study already. The only issue that we saw that it's a self-reported data, and the self-reported data, especially on economic victimization, where it could be issue of people overreporting it, if they expect to be, like maybe the government kind of reimbusing them for losses. So you have to be careful with that. So, yeah, but that's a good question of going after. And we, what's my rating? Like one of my favorite cases is like Liberia, and where is a struggle? There was a female movement, a women led movement that combined a Christian and Muslim women. And we used, I mean, against this divide between a Christian and a Muslim, and brought them together in the struggle against the war. And we used the encompassing identities of women as mothers, sisters to fight the war. So it came up from different religious identity and brought them together. Thank you. I must admit that I have a bit of a problem because I'm not a researcher. I cannot tell you what we have found out from being carrying out any research or studies. What I can just tell you is what I have experienced from working in the field as a practitioner and what we have come across as such. And talking about identity, overlapping identities, then they are definitely there. It's not only when you're working, for example, in Afghanistan, it's not only about being a woman in Afghanistan, it's also, are you a Pashtun woman? Are you a Hasara woman? What is your social class? All these things, you have to take into consideration. But in a conflict setting, only being a woman, regardless whether you are a Hasara or Pashtun or Tatsik woman is in itself a very determining factor. And it doesn't matter what is your class background, you can't be very easily a victim of sexual or gender-based violence and you might not have any resources, even though you come from a high-class family. You might not have any way of escaping, so if you are a victim of that. But I forgot to mention here, I didn't have time to mention it actually in my presentation and this is something I find very important with regard to asylum seekers in Europe. And that is the fact that there is a very high gender inequality ration in the amount of male and female asylum applicants in Europe. And I was quite surprised myself when I looked at these figures and saw that it's about 72% of asylum seekers are men and 28% are women, which is a very... Yeah, the inequality in this is quite imminent. And this is not only 72% are men, 28% women. When they apply, it seems that the outcome is more or less equal for men and women applicants but there are so much more men applying for asylum. And this is also something that is quite concerning. We saw that in all these refugees coming from Syria or from Afghanistan up to 2015, there were much more men than women. Much more men, probably because they went to Europe to try to find a safe place for the family and the idea was that the family should come afterwards or the women with the children. But then Europe closed its borders. So the women are left behind. And so we have much more men now than women as asylum seekers in Europe. And this is something that I think we really need to think carefully about. Yeah, I think, and also talking about gender or women, because it was mentioned here that women, what was it in Liberia in the recovery programs that some of the women that had been participating as competent had been left out maybe. We can see that also after the conflicts that the victims of the war, women as victims of war, especially women that have been victims of sexual violence, they are often left out in the programs after the conflict, in the post-conflict area. And we saw that very clearly in the former Yugoslavia. There are two decades since the end of the war in former Yugoslavia for reparations to be effective, reparation towards women as victims of rape in Yugoslavia. It's just now that we are seeing legislation in Croatia and in Kosovo on reparation for women that are victims of sexual violence during the war. So this is also something I just want to mention. Did you have a comment, Mariana? For getting the light. I think, Ingeborg, you are raising a really important question, and I just wanted to comment on that, the statistics about the numbers of asylum seekers and so on. There's something really important also that one has to look at the consequences of other laws. For example, in the Finnish case, the family reunification has been made so difficult that even if it's a man, I mean, there are, I mean, gendered reasons why men go first. I mean, we should also understand that. Families also have to measure the risks. Who do we send first? So currently, the Finnish government has changed the law for family reunification, basically making it so, so difficult that it's almost impossible. So, I mean, that's really, I think that's one of the, I'm so glad that you actually brought it up, the whole European role in all this and the legislations because that's for when it comes to UN Security Council 1325 implementation and in the case of National Action Plan, which Finland will be drafting again. I mean, this is one of the crucial aspects that should be raised as a form of gender discrimination, basically. Are there any other questions? Can take another round. Thank you. It's Goss Makerskos, I'm Madina from Uganda. I've actually evaluated that program myself, the BRAC program. And there's another program ongoing on the scholars program trying to look at this transition of secondary school children and how they give back the community. But this program in particular was mainly about to curb the sexual activities around young girls, mainly not to give birth at a young age. So the aspects about it, what I did ask Makerskos, they should have been heterogeneity within the impacts of these programs across regions since the clubs are actually situated within different cities. So I think partly what the lady from, I think it's a support store, but the Bandaiachi program was asking is we have the region of the Northern Uganda where there's war and what was the differences in the impacts of this program? But the war affected girls within that region, compared to the Kampala program, since they should have been heterogeneity in these impacts in terms of the sexual behavior and response. Thank you. Any other questions? Okay, thank you. Yeah, that's a good question. So at the time that we evaluated this program, it wasn't in Northern Uganda. So we're looking mostly at Kampala out through ginger and aganga a bit. So there's no difference by rural urban. We have some urban areas and rural. There's no marked difference. Now there was another program, the Wings program, right? Which you know in Northern Uganda, it's a different program, a lot more money. But it had really big effects. And the gender effects of that are interesting and they're sort of tracking them. And there was some conflict results that weren't, some violence results that weren't clear. Like there was an increase in females fighting, if I remember right. Don't quote me on that. But so they're tracking those folks into adult, into their marriages and unions and so on and sort of trying to understand how that played out. Because I think you're right. The effects would be different. And the results we're getting from Sudan seem to confirm that. Okay, so if there's no further questions or comments, then I think it's time to call an end to this session and go enjoy a cup of coffee before the closing panel. So thank you again to all the panelists for making time for this session. We've appreciated your inputs and your thoughts. And thank you to the audience for being a part of this session.