 Good morning, I'm Cindy Kang, Associate Curator here at the Barnes Foundation and I'm delighted to welcome you to today's program which kicks off our new exhibition Water, Wind, Breath Southwest Native Art and Community. It opens today and it will be on view in our Roberts Gallery through May 15th. Now part of the important groundwork for this exhibition has been to connect with the Indigenous communities in which the Native works in the Barnes collection were created. And this show has served as a catalyst to discuss inclusion of our local Indigenous peoples, the Lenape, and land acknowledgement as a way to understand and honor the history of the Lenape on this land and our place within that history. So I'd like to read our land acknowledgement statement which you will find on the wall of the exhibition and in the future in a permanent location here at the Barnes. The Barnes Foundation is situated in Lenapeho King, the ancestral homeland of the Lenape people. We acknowledge and honor their enduring relationship to this land and commit to serving as responsible stewards of it, guided by their knowledge and culture. All Lenape people, those still in the region and those driven from it by European and American colonizers, are welcome back to this piece of their homeland and we invite all people to join us with the Lenape and other Indigenous peoples to build a more inclusive and equitable learning space for present and future generations. Now, over the past few years, I've had the pleasure of working with the Exhibition Co-Curators, Lucy Fowler-Williams, who is Associate Curator-in-Charge, and Jeremy Asablos, Keeper of American Collections at the Penn Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, and Tony Chavarria, Curator of Ethnology at the Museum of Indian Arts and Culture in Santa Fe. I've been stewarding this project at the Barnes and we are so delighted to present it as the premier exhibition of the Barnes Foundation's centennial year. So today you'll be hearing from Tony, Lucy, and a very special guest, the renowned Pueblo sculptor Roxanne Swenzel, who made new work that is included in the show and I will let Lucy introduce her more properly later. But before I hand things over to Lucy and Tony, I wanted to say a few words about how this exhibition came to be and give you a very brief sense of its structure. So the Barnes, while best known for its collection of Impressionists, Post-Impressionists, and Modernist European Painting, is also home to a very rich collection of Southwest Native art, including Pueblo and Abba Ho Pottery, Textiles, and Jewelry. And to highlight this important part of the collection, we invited Lucy and Tony to develop this exhibition featuring approximately 100 works of historic and contemporary Southwest Native art. And they've created a project that emphasizes how these works are central to the health and well-being of the communities in which they were made. Now, as you'll see on the following slides, the exhibition is divided into five sections that integrate the historic and contemporary works to show that these arts are living traditions. We start with Pueblo Pottery, which explores the spiritual aspects of clay as well as the history of Spanish colonization and move on to Navajo weaving, which similarly emphasizes the spiritual nature of this practice as well as the effects of American colonization. Then Southwest Native Jewelry, which explores the meaning of silver and turquoise and Navajo pieces and shell and stone in public samples. Dr. Barnes' journeys to the Southwest in the early 1930s, where he was deeply moved by a Pueblo winter fear dance that he attended. And finally, the dance itself as a communal practice of renewal that continues to reverberate through the works of contemporary Native artists today. So the exhibition is accompanied by a fully illustrated 224 page catalog published by the Barnes Foundation in association with Yale University Press, which also serves as the collection catalog for the Barnes and Southwest Native art collection comprising 239 pieces. And this publication is a major contribution to the field, offering the first in-depth scholarly examination. And it combines the most current anthropological practice and technical analysis with the cultural expertise and lived experiences of Native scholars, specialists, and artists. So it really is unique and special among our collection catalogs. So now please welcome Lucy to introduce Tony and Roxanne. She will be followed by a presentation from Tony and then one from Roxanne. And then the three of them will have a conversation and there will be time at the end of the program for questions. So please do type them in the chat. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you, Cindy, so much. Good morning, everyone. And thank you for joining our program this morning here at the Barnes Foundation. My name is Lucy Fowler-Williams and as co-curator of the exhibition Water, Wind, Breath Southwest Native Art in Community. It's my truly great honor to introduce today's program, hosting two special guests from Santa Clara Pueblo in New Mexico. First, my colleague and co-curator, Tony Chavarria, will begin our program and share an introduction to his community of Santa Clara. Tony is the curator of ethnology at the Museum of Indian Arts and Culture in Santa Fe. We are also joined today. I'm so excited to share this with you by Roxanne Swencel. And Roxanne is an internationally recognized ceramic artist and she has created a new piece for our exhibition. Her work is in collections and museums around the world. She has exhibited at many places, including the White House in Washington, D.C., and she's won numerous awards. She created her own gallery near her home just north of Santa Fe. And her art addresses personal concerns and social commentary around the care of self and family and cultural heritage and the earth. In addition to her work in clay and bronze, Roxanne is president of the Santa Clara Pueblo based nonprofit called the Flowering Tree Permaculture Institute, which she co-founded 35 years ago in 1987. The organization is focused on teaching, sustainable living, and agriculture. Now I'm really excited to turn it over now to Tony. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I would like to just before we start to thank Lucy and Cindy and staff of the Florence Foundation. And again, also very special thanks to Roxanne for being here today. So this is a matter of intro. I just thought I would share basically like the place and where we come from and where the material exhibition comes from and how that can inform the work set of the juice. So the lens that we come from and what is now called the American Southwest are very dry. It's a high desert environment unlike the aerial view of flying into Philadelphia where there's so much water and there's so much water that's even in your air. Whereas in New Mexico, even at this time of the year, when it can be still dry, even during the winter, that humidity levels of 9%, 8%, 6% aren't unusual. And it's a place of like canyon lands, forests, valleys, and where water again is a precious commodity. And it's been something that has been held special and sacred for people who have lived there for millennia. And when moisture does occur, sometimes it's in very, very sporadic places and very short in length. And it can also be seen from very far distances. Sometimes the moisture will evaporate before it hits the ground. So this rain is called Berga where it evaporates. And oftentimes it will trail behind the cloud and this is referred to as this type of rain and the zoom that's seen for this is going to be seen in the types of sashes that are worn on dancers. We have an example that's also in the exhibition. And then in the valleys, there are down by the rivers where there's enough water, you get the false case of cottonwoods, some elms, and where the field lands occur. And then through the change of the seasons, you can note what season it is by the types of colors that are around. And this is when it's starting to change in the fall to a golden color on the cottonwood trees. And then there are mesa tops, plateaus or such that mark historic and sacred events to Pueblo people and remain very special and honored to this day. For example, Black Mesa near San Aldefonso and Santa Clara Pueblos. Life, you know, seizes its chance in the region. And again, it will take advantage of the short range of the moisture and then to bloom and try and reproduce in the shortened times it has. And the creatures of this land too will often, you know, are adapted to not using much water. And sometimes you are blessed by a visit from one of them, including this road runner here that can fly a little bit and largely runs around the ground and eats many other animals as well. This one was part of the family that was breaking up snails and then eating the inside. They're blessed with incredible vistas and that reflect both the cosmology and life ways of the people there. And these vistas can be reflected in the work that is produced. For example, here in an outdoor pottery firing, you can see a bowl that has a little piece taken out of the rim on the upper right there. And then the dances that occur throughout the year that have been postponed because of the pandemic that people long for. And so when these dances are done, whether they are done on ceremonial feast days, at art markets, at people's houses, every time this occurs, it is a celebration of the endurance and resilience of a long-lived culture that continues to continue to this day. And then a culture that also is adapted to other outside influences. And for example, this is a dance that is generally done at Santa Clara Blvd on Christmas Day. This is a way to the past to continue to do traditional activities and inwardly by outwardly honoring a saint or a holiday. And so people there to live in the here and now, they transverse cultures and adapt to things. And they indigenize other aspects, whether it's pop culture, whether it's other outside influences and forces, whether it can be a Star Wars themed Native wedding, and other activities, even such as graduations and baptisms. And so they continue this practices today so that they can continue for the future and for sort of an inspiration and to seek balance. As mentioned for the exhibit, it's really part of the material that is being produced. It is for a better life just to, as part of well-being and even though these dances, the practice of making art, that is, these are all parts of that. And so I'll stop sharing now and I will turn it over to Roxanne to begin her presentation. Hello. Can everybody hear me? I hope so. I'm Roxanne Swenzo on the Pablo of Santa Clara Pablo and I'm honored to be here today. All right. We all exist here and are here today in all of our lives because our ancestors figured out how to survive. It's amazing that there are people all over this earth and it's because our ancestors figured out how to survive in the places that they were. Some of my ancestors came from the Mesa Verde area. They became the Pueblo peoples of today. And I come from the tribe of Cop or Wenge, the last of the town of people. And I'm honored and happy to be here today to share with you some of my story. We could go to the next picture. As I look through ancient beads that I sometimes find in the hills dropped by the old ones. It's like looking through a window into the past. My imagination writes novels of what life must have been like for them. My closest connections come through my mother and my grandmother. As you can see in the next picture, my grandmother here is showing my mother how to win a wheat the old way. I come from a strong lineage of Pueblo women. Every one of them is a force demanding respect. My grandmother grew up in the old ways. She had many children and pulled them around her like a queen bee in a hive. As I said before, she did things the old way. My mother second to the eldest of nine children was fiercely beautiful and terrifying to me. She taught me how to see. She taught me how to see what you can see with your eyes. As a child during the depression, she talked about being so hungry she ate grass after watching horses eating. She survived and went on to earn a PhD in American studies alongside a degree in architecture and humanities. She questioned the logic of the American dream pitting it against the strength of Pueblo community versus individualism. She was able to articulate these differences having stirred in both worlds. Next slide. During many hardships, the Pueblos held together because of their strength as communities. Traditional Pueblo families are not just nuclear families but extends beyond the great grandparents, uncles, aunties into the past ancestors that watch over us. This piece I made for the Santa Fe Civic Center and it is a statement on community in the point of view of Pueblo people. And go on to the next picture. We can see this community if looking at corn. I was taught that the corn mothers have been teaching us about how to behave. They show us how to share space by how each kernel is unique but fits into the whole beauty of the corn. They show us how to care for each other by the way they feed us and have the ability to carry on life through their seed. They are our grandmothers and part of our family. Next slide. We could also see this community understanding in the making of a basket. If each of us is like a strand in the basket, ourselves, we are very weak but together we become strong and possibly very beautiful in our interactions with each other. And in the next picture. Pueblo people are originally a pattern literate people instead of an object literate one. In other words, we didn't focus so much on the individual or objects but more on the interactions and energies that flow between things. The movement of the universe is important to understand and align with in order to be happy and do well in life. These interpretations of energy patterns can be seen in our designs on our pottery, our weavings, our architecture and in our dances. Next slide. The songs and dance movements are all symbolic of these energy patterns. Water, wind, breath or koa ha also speaks about life being about the energies that flow through us. This is a rain dance or a gathering of energies for the sake of continuing life within and around us. Go ahead. Staying rooted to our mother, the earth is a way to remember who we are as children of this earth. She takes good care of us if we remember we are of her. And as you can see in the next slide, staying close for me has been continuing my ancestors farming practices, building practices with Adobe as my people have done for thousands of years and of course creating my expressions in clay. Next. In creating sculptures from her, she has provided me a language bigger than words for expressing my experiences through. Next. In my journey to understand myself and where I belong, I have learned a great deal about where I come from and how my ancestors figured out how to live here in the Southwest US for thousands of years. It's been a journey of remembering. In 1987 I helped co-found a nonprofit called Flowering Tree Permaculture Institute. We study the sustainable practices of our ancestors applying what we can to our communities today for a healthier future. Next. One of our projects has been the Pueblo Food Experience. By eating our pre-contact foods, we found that our health improved immensely while helping to keep our cultural practices alive through farming our original crops, learning to prepare the foods in old ways and helping to keep pottery alive and understanding the meaning behind it all. A spiritual connection to our ancestors and to place is the unseen result of these actions. Next. Remembering that we are not separate individuals, but the result of energies moving and interacting with each other is important. This cosa or Pueblo clown is making rope. He is reminding us that one strand alone is weak, but the interconnection between two will create a strong rope. Interestingly, a rope in a rope, in a rope, each strand is twisted in the opposite direction of the other. The tension of the strands going in different directions create the bond that holds them together. The energies teach us that differences are our strengths if we use them to bond together instead of to fight, as with the opposites of a man and a woman creating life with their bonds. Next. In this piece I made called Mud Woman. I am depicting the earth mother holding all her babies, us in different colored clays showing how we all are uniquely different, but still come from our mother earth. It's a reminder to treat each other with care and respect. We are all children of this creation. The quality of our relationships will determine the strength and health of our life and the life of our future generations. Next. With all this in mind, I created Strong Heart, a big dog kitty for the barn's show as my statement on our connection to the earth. She touches the earth with one hand and her heart with the other, making the tie conscious. Having a life is not just about the breath that flows through us, but in a manner in which we love. Our relationship to her, the earth, teaches us to have relationships to each other as humans, plants, animals, how to care for each other like our mother earth cares for us by feeding and nurturing each other, how to shelter and hold each other as our earth mother holds and shelters us, how to find joy and beauty by sharing ourselves with each other as she shares her beauty with us, and how to find strength through the knowledge that we are connected to all that is. In this way, we feel loved and we can give up. So thank you. Madhya Rakhsan, that was just wonderful. Oh my gosh, that was incredible. We just so greatly appreciate your time and energy and thoughtful presentation. That was a wonderful overview. So I think we have prepared a number of questions. I think you answered some of them in your beautiful presentation. But why don't we begin by having you tell us a little bit about your process and perhaps tell us about more about the piece that you made and your materials and tools and how you actually went about it. So creating her for our show and I know as well that it was very important for you to make a new piece for this exhibition. So perhaps you could tell us about your process and then help us know why was it important for you to make create her a new work for the show. Thank you, Lucy. Yes, thank you. Let's see, I started sculpting when I was about three years old because my mother, my grandmother and so on were all potters. And so I learned how to coil and pinch, make pots the old way basically. And so that's how I make my pieces was is by coiling and pinching the clay. I, I do use all kinds of clays now. I've dug a lot of my own clays, but I also buy commercial clays. And my reasoning for that is all clays come from Mother Earth somewhere. And so it's the manner in the respect for for that earth that that counts. So whether you go dig it or you you buy it somewhere you you give that same respect. So I coil and and pinch my pieces so they're hollow inside. I do fire in an electric kiln so that I can take, take them up very slowly and be able to cool them down very slowly because they are complicated pots. So I wanted to create a new piece for for this show because it was about Pueblo people and because the title Water, Wind, Breath is also a quote from my mother who spoke eloquently of what life is the the essence of what what it means to have life. And that movement that flow between the wind, the water movements is what makes life happen. And when you know you when you breathe in that you're taking in life you're taking in life and and energies from everywhere that you are right now. And when you release that breath you're giving so it's a reciprocal exchange constantly to have life. And that consciousness is important in order to remember how to live well you take and you also give. And that's part of the hope or how the wind, water, breath message and and you know we've been all you know, living through this pandemic time. And when I was asked about this barn show. I was feeling a great need and still do have this intense need to to get this information out to people how to live well. And in that concept from my Pueblo mindset of what I was taught. What I wanted to share with the world was a real basic basic need for us to reconnect with the Mother Earth because that disconnect has gotten us into the trouble we're in. I think and that the reconnecting of ourselves with where we're from all of us are indigenous to this earth somewhere. And that reconnection makes us strong again makes us like a strong basket again the connections are what matters. And so I wanted to make a piece that showed that again to to help people feel that feeling of being connected and what it does to you when you stop for a minute and stop running around crazy and sit with where you're from and feel that so that's where the piece came from. Thank you. It's really beautiful. And tell me Roxanne tell us did the peace change as you were making it you know from perhaps your original vision or your early ideas and how does that process work you know perhaps not in this example you could bring forward in a different example but you know many many Pueblo artists talk about the clay. Taking over and sort of you know having a life of its own in a way. So how did the process of this this piece go for you in that way. I also I also agree that the clay leads you you're in in relationship connection again is important you're allowing yourself to be the hands of the clay the medium and not only the clay but the message that's trying to come through. So as I said before I think that that need to tell the world that that our connection to the earth is important again. Isn't necessarily mine. It was given to me to put through the clay. But it's that message is that energy that's coming through that saying listen listen and I decided to listen to put it into the clay and always when I'm making a piece I get a kick out of it because I don't draw sketches I don't you know do free whatever I go well. Let's see the clay can hold up physically this way or that way you know technically I have to work with what the clay can do. So I made her kneeling because she also needed to be you know close to the ground but not laying on the ground because I wanted that heart presence to really be showing. And but always when I'm making a piece you know there's a feeling of like I wonder what it's going to show me and and as she was coming through. I was I was struck by you know I had that concept vaguely of going oh yeah okay she'll be doing this but when it started to come out in real form. I have to say I started to cry because it also was reminding me that I needed to do this too and it got to me it was this moment of like oh my goodness look at. She's she's doing it she's showing us how to do this and so it's very it's magical for me. That's wonderful. Tony do you want to ask a question or lead this in a in a direction. Yeah Roxanne. I just wanted to ask to on the figure that there are some some hints of red and people are asking me to us and it's kind of like sparkly. So I was wondering is that a my case just slipped there. There's my case is in the dirt that she's she's touching and so there is some sparkly my case is on her. Maybe might be showing up more on the red on her dress. And another thing I wanted to ask is that you are known for you know you're the figures that you make that they're very detailed and that they're very well formed. Especially for example like you know, like a hands and particularly the feet and you know something which can be like very hard to do. And so how did you learn to like to do like, basically like especially like feet and toes so well. Thanks Tony. I think because of the manner in which I began to sculpt is is the answer to that because I was a child very very young and even though I was being taught how to make a pot. You know I'm three years old what I really want to do is sculpt my dog so you know you're like rolling the coil and making. My dog and that was the first sculpture I made, and then I realized that I could do a lot with this material. And I had a pretty severe speech impediment as a child so I was not the I wasn't able to pronounce in words that could be understood by my parents so it was very frustrating. You know I wanted to tell them things and I was frustrated with words. So I took this clay and I started to create scenes out of it that. Then I would hand those little scenes of, for instance, when I first started school, it was really hard for me in school in public school because I couldn't speak and it was difficult for me to learn that way and so I made a little girl crying at a school desk and then I took it to my mom and gave it to her and then she could understand what was going on with me. So it's an expression and so the more I could technically get good at expressing myself through this clay medium in these little figures, the better communication I had available to me. So hands and feet, as you can see, hands and feet are very expressive things and you know the movement of a head or the wiggle of toes, they give off a message and it's a human language. We all understand those gestures, we all know what a smile feels like, we all know what a frown, we all know what a pain looks like. So it's a language that's beyond one culture, it's actually a human language. So I think I got very good at hands and feet just because of that and they also tend to be enlarged and I think that's also because of the expression quality of it being a communication tool. And yes, I've always kind of like thought of like when your work that they have what I call Roxanne proportions. You know that they do have like, you know, just like some, they're not like in the perfect proportions, but they still work and they still read, you know, as you know people and it's very well. And it's something that you often often don't necessarily notice sometimes at first is because that you're taken in by the overall figure and you know what it's trying to say. So that then it's not until later you realize, oh yeah, like the hands and feet are a little, little enlarged. That's just when you're just kind of looking at it more from like a technical point but just for you know overall that they always have these like to get these proportions that you could see oh that's a that's Roxanne that's Roxanne's piece. And you know and then it has this you know this other meaning and effect, you know, from that. Thank you, Tony. Thank you, Lucy. Roxanne about the surface her the surface of her. Do you do any painting at all on that the color is the color. Yeah, could you just walk us through that because it when you're in person in the gallery and you're taking that in. I can't imagine how you how you created that that you know her skin tones that are varied. Etc. So could you tell us a little more about that. So I when I coil and pinch them, and then I burnish them with a knife and and stones like sometimes in the face area stones polishing stones are the best tool to use. So the shinier I can make the skin, for instance, the more glow it will have the more rough it will will have a more darker texture to it. And what I tend to do then is rub iron oxide, it's just rust into the clay after I fire it once. And it'll give a very nice. I think a good skin tone. Also the in like, for instance, this my piece for the show, good strong heart has a paint put on for her dress so I actually painted the colors on her with acrylic paint literally. Her hair is a black iron oxide. And so it gives this nice, nice subtle subtlety about her. And it was important that she was touching earth, wherever she was so I made a stand for her that is has real dirt on it so that she's always touching the earth. And that was a really nice addition. We were, I was a little surprised to see that when it arrived and it really works. It's just spectacular. I wanted to ask you as well, Roxanne, if you could sort of situate us as to your space right now. I know that you have your tower gallery and Paul hockey right near your home. But can you just sort of describe where you're situated now where your studio is in connection to your home. As you're looking out that window there, we can see the beautiful Latia ceiling above you. And I believe that you made your home so could you just tell us a little bit more about your living space and all that that entails. So I grew up, not only playing with clay, but I was also farming and also building with Adobe, our family is known for building with with mud. So I continued that and at the age of 23 I built myself in Adobe solar house here at Santa Clara Pablo. And I still live in my house to this day where I'm sitting right now is actually the nonprofits seed bank office, which I built it's Adobe we has Latia ceilings out of an old fence we took down. It's all made out of Adobe so you can see the mud plaster behind me you can see a pattern in Adobe itself. Everything I make the doors I make. So this is a seed bank, one of our seed banks, and it has good internet connection so I'm using it to do this is some presentation. I also help build and finish the tower gallery in Milwaukee Pablo, and it's all out of Adobe. Beautiful structure if you're ever in this area, it's a magnificent building. So we continue to build things out of Adobe we just finished an Adobe greenhouse that we're excited to start planting in soon. So, yeah, that's where I am. Can you tell us a little bit about the plants and the seed bank. So what, what kind of seeds and what are you planting to give people a sense of that. And then also, who is doing all the watering, etc. The seeds are are I I've been saving seeds of our ancestors meaning our original crop seeds such as the corn beans squash, things like that, that are from this area from the problems of this region. And the reason for that is that they are drought tolerant and are adapted to the Southwest. Better than other species. So, I've been trying to keep those alive for a long time and share them also with the community other farmers that are interested in growing these crops out in this particular seed bank. We have, let's see if I can show you a little bit. I'm going to show you this board. This kind of shows some of the seed packet covers that we have here. So we like to make everything a little artistic so even in the seed packets it can be an opportunity to be creative and make beautiful packets of seeds. Keep the seeds very cold so they're all locked down right now in a very cold room. And I don't have an extension court to show you it, but they are there. Thank you so much. Okay, so I think that we need to transition probably to our Q&A so that the audience could ask you some questions. And I think that Cindy, perhaps we give it back to you to handle that. Hi, I mean all four of us can be on the screen, I think. But yeah, we have so many questions from the audience for you Roxanne and Lucy and Tony, because this has been such a fascinating and amazing presentation and conversation. I'll just kind of go in order. And I hope we can get to all the questions but we might not and I apologize if we run out of time. Marcy asks Roxanne, well she says your work is remarkable and your words are as well. Have you written any of this in a book with your work or with other work? Experience Book has a number of essays in it that are, it's not just a recipe book, it is also a story about Pueblo people. There's some writings by some other Pueblo members here. So it's a good read, not just for recipes but just to have some more information. And I also try to do a lot of teaching. So we teach here at Flaringtree and so we share some of this stuff with our students. Thank you. Ashley asks a question that I will pass to Lucy. Given the long history of an ethical collection methods, I would be curious to know how Dr. Barnes and the museum acquired these pieces. And Lucy has done a lot of research on this and I can perhaps also add at the end but Lucy please go ahead. Sure. Yes, thank you Ashley for that question. Dr. Barnes went to the Southwest first in the winter of 1929 and 30 and over just a two year period he purchased collections from dealers and shops there in New Mexico and also in Arizona. And he traveled to reservations and he attended Pueblo dances, went to the Navajo Reservation as well as Hopi. So he was purchasing from dealers and we have all of his letters in the archive. And you know he wasn't out in the Southwest that entire time when he was here in Marion, those dealers were corresponding with him and sending possibilities to him in Marion that he would look over and purchase if he was interested and then he would return others that he was not interested in. So I hope that answers your question. For Roxanne, Susan asks. Well she says I love thank you I've loved your work since I first saw clowns climbing out of the earth at the Herd Museum over three decades ago. She asked how do you fire and assemble that ginormous mother earth sculpture. The piece at the Denver Art Museum mud woman is made out of just mud and straw so I did not have to fire her. Denver Art Museum allowed me to go there for nine months at intervals at a time and slowly build her in place so she's actually built on spot because she would be too big to get through any doors she's 14 feet tall. And we built her out of straw first, and then we plastered her with mud. So I thought of it as with my building skills of building with Adobe it was fun because I could build a sculpture instead and use the different clays that I found between Santa Clara and Denver to coat the pieces to get the different colors. So they're just earthen dirt I had collected at different spots along the highway. That's great. And a lot of people in the chat turning back to the work that you made for the Barnes exhibition a lot of people in the chat were asking about the size of the work so can you talk more about, you know what size it is but also you know how you can see the size of the work. They're also asking about the stand that you were talking about. We unfortunately don't have an image of that stand so you will have to come in person to see it in the exhibition. But that that Roxanne did create a stand with dirt on it where it sits in its vitrine in the exhibition. So Roxanne if you could talk more about the size of the work and the stand you created. Yes, strong heart is about, I'm going to guess here, about 14 inches high, maybe 16 inches. So she's not very she's not real large but she's sits there and of course the meaning of it being that she's touching the ground and her heart. And she's an art piece so it had there's some contradiction there because you put something of art piece on a pedestal, you literally take them away from the earth. And I had her on the stand at the gallery and I was looking at her and I went this is not right she needs to be on the ground. I thought if I can't put her outside in the yard. If she's going to be shown in museums and galleries like that and I'm going to have to bring the earth to her. So I literally made sort of a box, put dirt in the box, and then that stays with her so that she always has her dirt with her no matter where she goes. It's really fabulous and I have to say when we were unpacking it and we saw this stand of dirt we're like oh my gosh how do we make sure this all stays with the piece because of course it's dirt so someone started to fall out. But it's it's amazing in the galleries and you all really will have to come see it. There's a question for Tony Tony could you from Deborah Tony could you tell us about the museum in Santa Fe where you work. Oh, sure. I worked at the Museum of Indian arts and culture, laboratory of anthropology in Santa Fe. It's one of the state museum and it started as the laboratory of anthropology of private institution, and then merged with the state system in 1944. And the general research area is the American Southwest. And we have a very nice bronze piece by Roxanne that will be in our permanent exhibition renovations here now and always that will open sometime this summer. That's great to hear. Another question for Roxanne, do you ever use a potter's wheel. I love to use a potter's well, because my mother knew how to use a potter's wheel and so I used her potter's wheel. And we made all our own dishes in the family on the wheel, but by way of sculpting I just do the pinch and coil method. But every once in a while if I, I don't have a wheel right now but whenever I get a chance I'm like, can I make a pot. And Roxanne, a question from Eva. Can you tell us what you mean when you say that your grandmother was old school? Old school in the context I was putting it in is the way she collected her family around her. She was such a strong community person that her kids couldn't leave if they tried. They were very reigning by her, you know, whether she had that mentality where you don't go away from community and have a career outside of the community. Everything was right here. And so you stay close to home and you help her out and whether she needs you to build an extra room on her house or fix dinner or window wheat or whatever she was expecting you there right that day. So everyone stayed very close around her like in a beehive with her. She was the queen bee for sure. I like that, the queen bee. And I think this will have to be the last question because we are getting to time. It's a question I think I missed earlier. This is for Lucy and Tony. Elizabeth asks in the curation for the exhibition, did you add culture? Yes, and just wanted to know if there were any culture artists included in in the selection of contemporary artists in the exhibition. No, we did not include culture embroidery. We did discuss the question because Dr. Barnes does have some other art from some of the Hispanic communities in, you know, the area where he was near Taos. But we did not include that it was sort of a, we had to put some boundaries on it and we really focused only on his Pueblo and Navajo works. So that's a show for another time. Well, I think that's a perfect way to end. Thank you so much, Roxanne, Tony and Lucy for this really beautiful and moving presentation and this fascinating conversation that really helps us understand Pueblo art and practice more deeply. I mean, thank you for joining us or to our audience for joining us. I hope you will visit the Barnes in person to see this exceptional work. And again, the exhibition runs through May 15. I just wanted to invite you to join us for other in person and some virtual programs related to Waterwind Breath this spring. We are offering a variety of lectures, classes and public programs that lift up native voices, culture and history. On Friday, March 25 at 6pm, we are proud to welcome the US Poet Laureate, Joy Harjo, a member of the Muskegee Nation for an evening of poetry and conversation. And for upcoming Pico Free First Sunday Family Days in April and May, we will be featuring native artists and organizations from our region. So that includes Native Nations Dance Theater. Here are the seeds and Indigenous Peoples Day Philly. And more details on all of those programs are available on our website under what's on. So thank you so much again for joining us. I hope I will get to see you at the Barnes in the remarkable Waterwind Breath exhibition. Have a good rest of your day.