 Okay, so good evening, and welcome to the third session of the Jews for Judaism Counter-Missionary Survival Seminar, and this evening's program is called The Real Messiah, Part 2. And I just want to very, very briefly summarize what we covered last week, because tonight's discussion is based upon last week's class. Last week we really tried to understand what is the biblical concept of the Messiah. Often people try to discuss was Jesus the Messiah, was this person the Messiah, was that person the Messiah, and it's obviously a useless discussion unless you know exactly what a Messiah is. We don't know what a Messiah is, there's no way of knowing whether someone is or isn't the Messiah. You have to have clear definition. So what we saw last week was that the Bible does speak about many messiahs, many people in Jewish history who were anointed with oil, they had oil placed on them, and that is the act of anointing. In Hebrew the word anointing is masiach, so any person that was anointed would be called a Messiah, a masiach. And in the Bible we saw that kings were anointed, so David was a Messiah, Shaul the first king of Israel was a Messiah. We saw that the high priests like Aaron, Moses' brother was anointed, he was a Messiah. The Bible speaks about people that were prophets that were anointed, they were messiahs. But the question is, does the Bible ever speak about a special Messiah that it was going to come in the future? And because this Messiah is special, we call this one not just any Messiah but the Messiah. And we saw last week that the Bible does speak about a special king who will rule, he will be the leader of the Jewish people, in the future and the Bible describes what that future will look like. We saw that the Bible spends a lot of time describing a new, different, better kind of world. For all of human history, the world has been broken. The world has been a place far from the ideal, especially for the Jewish people. We have suffered, we have been in exile, the world doesn't like us too much. And yet, the Bible says that one day the Jewish people will return from their exile, we will all come back to live in our homeland, there will be peace for the Jewish people in their homeland and we will be able to have our temple, which is now in ruins. And when that happens, all the Jewish people will return to following the Torah. The Bible speaks about the transformation of the Jewish people physically and spiritually that we're going to return to God, we're going to return to our land, we're going to return to the Torah and to the commandments of the Torah and the Bible says when that happens, the nations of the world are going to turn to us and ask us to teach them about God. So the Bible says that the knowledge of God will spread throughout the entire world. The Bible says every person on the planet is going to believe in God and when that happens, there will be peace throughout the world. And the Bible says that at that time there will be a wise and righteous king who will be a descendant of King David and that is the Messiah. That person is the Messiah. And what is important to understand is that there isn't anything else in the Bible about a future Messiah who will come. That's all we have, the picture I just described. And so we know based upon this understanding that the Messiah has not yet come. Because again, to repeat, the Bible describes, the Bible emphasizes what the world will look like when the Messiah is here. The world does not yet look like that, the Messiah has not yet come. So we saw that the major reason why, the major reason why we understand that Jesus was not the Messiah is because none of the prophecies of the Bible will fulfill in his time. We saw, by the way, two other additional factors. One was that the Bible tells us something that will happen before the Messiah comes which is that the prophet Elijah will return and that didn't happen before Jesus. And we saw that there was no real proof that Jesus was a descendant of King David. The only proof there is, is the Christian Bible. But that would be like a person going to court and saying that someone owes him a million dollars and the court says, can you prove it? And he says, I tell you that they owe me a million dollars. So the fact that the Christian Bible tells us that Jesus is a descendant of David does not prove it, it's not real proof. And we saw that not only is there no real proof that Jesus came from the line of David we saw actually that there are many problems with the genealogy of Jesus. Many problems with his ichus and we're not going to go into them again tonight. So that was last week's class. And what we want to do this week is begin to understand so what do Christian missionaries say in response to last week's class? How do they answer this question? So the major response of Christianity is to say that it's true. They agree that Jesus did not fulfill any of those prophecies but Christians insist but Jesus will return. He will come back in the future and when he comes back he will do all those things the Messiah is supposed to do. That is what Christians call the second coming and the Messiah is going to have a second coming. Now one question we could ask tonight is so why did he come the first time? And we're not going to get into that tonight maybe in a few weeks but let's try to understand what is our response? What is the Jewish response to this claim that the Messiah is going to come back after he dies without fulfilling any prophecies? And at some point in the future now it's 2000 years later what is our response to this Christian idea that yes Jesus was the Messiah and we'll see that he will fulfill all of the prophecies when he returns. So we're going to share five points. Point number one is that this idea is just a theory. It's a claim but it has no basis in the Bible. There's absolutely nothing in the Bible about the Messiah coming and then failing and then coming back thousands of years later. So it's a concept which has no basis in the Bible. Second problem. If you remember from last week we had those two circles the A circle and the B circle and the B circle were those about ten passages in the Bible which spoke specifically about this descendant of David who will be the king when the world has been transformed into a paradise, into a utopia. So the problem is that if the Christians were right those ten passages should be speaking about someone returning, someone coming back to be the king. However, when you read those passages in the Bible they don't speak about someone coming back or returning. It has a perspective of the person coming for the first time. That's a second problem with this idea of the second coming. The third problem is that this idea of the second coming doesn't give Jesus any credibility for the first time he was here. What do I mean by this? You could say about anyone who was a failed Messiah that they will come back sometime in the future. It's what we would call a rationalization. We would say that as an expression of necessity is the mother of invention that Christians were forced to say that Jesus will come back because he didn't accomplish anything. But the problem is if they're saying that he will only fulfill the prophecies when he comes in the future why should I believe or why should any of us believe that he is the Messiah now before he fulfills all those prophecies? So the problem of a second coming is that there's no credibility for the first coming. I mean that I could say about my great-grandfather. My great-grandfather was the Messiah. And you'll look at me and you'll say, really, what did your great-grandfather do? And I'll say, no, he was killed in Europe somewhere. But you'll see when he comes back, he'll fulfill all the prophecies. So you would say, well, look, we'll wait till he comes back and then we'll talk. But no one is going to start believing in my grandfather because I tell you one day he will come back and do amazing things. So this whole idea that Jesus is going to come back in the future that doesn't give me any sense that I should believe in him now. And Christians are not telling us we should believe in Jesus when he comes back. They're saying that we have to believe in Jesus now. Fourth problem. The fourth problem is, and this is not so much our problem. This is really more of a problem for the Christians. The fourth problem is that in the Christian Bible which speaks about Jesus coming back, it doesn't speak about him coming back in 2,000 years. It speaks about him coming back immediately in that generation. For example, in one passage Jesus says to his followers, there are some of you here standing today who will not taste death, meaning you will not die until I come back with the kingdom of God. So he was basically saying that the generation he was living in, that's going to be the generation that sees him return. Or in another passage he says, this generation will not pass away until everything is fulfilled. In many passages in the Christian Bible he says, I'm coming back soon. And this is repeated over and over and over again. So the problem here is that the concept of the Second Coming was not indeterminate. It wasn't something that could be put off for hundreds and thousands of years. In the Christian Bible the Second Coming was supposed to be in that generation. And now the fifth problem. The fifth problem is that there's one problem that cannot be remedied. It cannot be fixed by Jesus coming back. And that is, if there was a problem with his genealogy, if there was a problem with his family line being traced back to David, that cannot be fixed even if he comes back a thousand times. He cannot rewrite his genealogy. He cannot fix his ancestry. And so if there was a problem with his genealogy the first time, it cannot improve by coming back. So those are five problems with this theory of the Second Coming. So what we're going to do now is try to understand what is the Christian case for Jesus. How do they try to argue for their point of view? I'll give you an example of a story that happened to me a number of times. So I've had many discussions with Christians and they ask me, so why don't you believe in Jesus? And I give them the answer. We've just learned. I say, well, the Bible has a description of what the Messiah will be and Jesus does not fit the description. So one of the most common responses that Christians have is, yes, but what about all the miracles that he did? What about all the miracles that Jesus did? He walked on water. He healed people. He took a few loaves of bread and a few fish and he was able to feed many, many people. So they claim that he did many miracles. And their assumption is that those miracles would prove that he is the Messiah. My response, you know, Jews always answer a question with a question. So I ask this question. I ask them, tell me, how many times does the Bible tell us that we will be able to know who the Messiah is based upon all the miracles that he will do? A simple question. Again, if you remember what we did last week, we showed very clearly and consistently that the Bible has a description, a definition of the Messiah. So I ask them, tell me, how many times does the Bible tell us that the way we will be able to know who the Messiah is is because he will do miracles. And they think and they say, I can't think of any places the Bible says that. And I say, that's correct. The Bible never says that we will know who the Messiah is based upon the miracles he will do. But I go further with them and I ask, why is that? Why doesn't the Bible ever tell us that miracles will prove that someone is the Messiah? It's important to understand that. So the reason is very simple. Because in the Bible we see that many kinds of people can do miracles. Not just good people. For example, in Egypt, when Moses performed the ten plagues, actually God did them, but Moses was the front man. Moses was the representative. So when those miracles were done in Egypt and Moses was holding up the staff or hitting the water with the staff, we know that the magicians of Pharaoh were able to do the exact same miracles or at least some of them. In the Bible, God tells us that there will be false prophets and these false prophets will be able to do incredible miracles. The Bible tells us it's going to happen. There will be false prophets and they will be able to do amazing miracles. So the question is, if they are false prophets, why would God allow them? Why would God give them the ability to perform miracles if they're false prophets? And the Bible says this is the 13th chapter in Devarim in Deuteronomy. The Bible says because God will be testing us to see are we going to follow him or are we going to be impressed by the miracles of the false prophet? What's interesting is that I tell these Christians that in their Bible it says the same thing. In the book of Matthew chapter 24, verse 24, it says that false messiahs will be able to do incredible supernatural miracles. So now we ask the question, if a false messiah can do miracles, then could miracles ever prove that someone is the real messiah? Obviously not. Now, this whole discussion we just had was based upon the understanding that Jesus did miracles. But that's not so simple. Another question we could ask the Christian is, how do we know Jesus did any miracles? How do I know? And they would have to say, because the Christian Bible says so, and I would say how convenient. But the question is, how do we know that those stories are true? Who wrote the New Testament? Who wrote the Christian Bible? Were they historians? Were they journalists? No. They were Christian missionaries. And in the Christian Bible, John, one of the writers, says, I am writing these stories to convince people to believe in Jesus. So he has what we call a vested interest. He is someone who is not objective. He's not a historian. He's not a journalist. He's a salesman. He's trying to promote his beliefs. And the question is, would someone exaggerate stories or invent stories if they're trying to convince people to believe in Jesus? Is it possible? So I will share with you something interesting. Today in the world, one of the ways in which missionaries try to promote their beliefs is by claiming that Christians have many miracles happen to them today. In many churches, they claim that in the churches people get healed, people's lives get better. And the question is, are all of these stories true? So I have with me a magazine that was published by Christian missionaries. This is the organization called Jews for Jesus. They have a magazine that's sent to their supporters, sent to the people that support them. And they write in here that they wanted to put together an issue of the magazine that discussed supernatural miracles and healings, people being healed. And they said that they asked all of their readers to send in stories of people who were sick and there was a doctor who diagnosed that there was a sickness and they were healed with a doctor diagnosing that there was a healing. And they say here that they were not able to receive any testimonies that were substantiated by a doctor to prove that there was a healing based upon the beliefs of Christianity. And what they say here is very interesting. They say sadly this type of experience is all too common. They said that there was one person who claimed that it was their own doctor that was healed but when the magazine contacted the doctor the doctor said that he had no idea what they were talking about. And they say this is all too common meaning it's too common that people claim that there are miracles and there are no miracles. Then they go on to say that there was someone else who wanted to write a book about miracles in the church and he did a lot of research and again remember this is not someone who wasn't a Christian that was a skeptic who was doing the research. This is a Christian who was trying to research miracles in churches and he found in all of the stories that he researched he said he found each of the instances where healing was claimed to be questionable not some of the stories all of the stories he said were questionable. So if today Christians would make up stories in order to convince people to believe in Jesus it's quite possible that 2,000 years ago the writers of the Christian Bible would also make up stories. We'll take the questions later. I'm going to tell you 2 stories that happened to me. I once met a young man who was a Jewish person that converted to Christianity and I asked him why did he convert why did he convert from Judaism to Christianity so he told me because he saw many miracles in his church and I asked him to give me some examples what are you referring to? He said once he went into the service and his back was hurting him his back was not feeling good and after the service his back felt much better. Very nice. He told me that he was driving in the car one day and he was thinking of a song on the radio and all of a sudden the song was played on the radio came up on the radio and then he told me that he was once hungry and he was in his friend's house and there was no food and he opened the cabinet and there was cookies and it was his favorite cookies those kind of stories and that's why you believe in Jesus that's why you convert he said yes because of these kind of miracles so I asked him I said do you believe that miracles can prove that a religion is true and he said yes that's why I converted to Christianity so I asked him what do you do how do you explain the miracles that I have seen I asked him if miracles prove a religion is true how do you explain the miracles that I have seen he said you've seen miracles I said yes he said tell me what you've experienced I told him two miracles and I said I have many more these are the two that I told him when I was 27 years old I was driving my car and it went over a cliff the car went over a cliff the car flipped over about 10-15 times and the car was basically crushed flat and I walked out without a scratch this is a true story I was there so I said I think that's as big a miracle as your back feeling better and then I said when I was a student in Israel my roommate's cousin was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer he was diagnosed with basically he was going to doctor said he would not be able to live he had cancer in the brain he had a tumor the whole school, my Nishiva prayed for him and he totally recovered and I told him those are two miracles that I've experienced and I said I've seen many many others so I asked him if miracles prove a religion is true I said does that mean Judaism is true because of the miracles that I've seen so he said to me Rabbi Skoback the miracles that you saw were done by the devil by Satan to confuse you the miracles you saw were done by the devil to confuse you why? because the devil, Satan wants you to go to hell how will Satan get you to go to hell by keeping you away from Jesus remember we learned the first week that Christians believe that if you don't believe in Jesus you're going to hell forever so he said the devil wants you to go to hell and he will get you away from Jesus by performing all of these amazing miracles to keep you a loyal Jew so if he keeps you a loyal Jew you won't go to Jesus you will burn in hell forever so I said that's interesting I said do you believe that the devil runs all around the world doing miracles to confuse people he said of course that's the devil's job so I asked him how do you know the devil didn't do those miracles to confuse you how do you know that the miracles you saw were done by the devil to confuse you and he got very confused by this question ok I'll tell you one more story I was at a meeting of Christians and these were mostly Jews that converted and I spent time with one of them and I asked him his story how did he convert and he told me that he had friends that were trying to convert him and they were talking to him and giving him things to read and they were taking him to meetings and he was thinking maybe he should convert but then he said but no I'm a Jew and I shouldn't convert and he told me he was going back and forth and back and forth he was very confused he was getting very frustrated should I believe in Jesus should I not believe in Jesus what should I do he told me he got so frustrated that one day he said to God he was going back and forth he said God just tell me should I believe in Jesus or should I not believe in Jesus he told me at that moment a lightning bolt came into his room chased him all around the room it went into his stomach and came out of his head so I said to him you know if that had happened to me I would have thought God was saying no I would have thought that was a no answer why are you assuming that God was telling you yes you should believe in Jesus now the truth is that we see today in the world all religions have miracles Christians have miracles Jews have miracles every religion in the world can tell stories of miracles that happen to them so it's obvious that miracles could never teach you which religion is true miracles can show you that there's a God in the world miracles can tell you that there is God in the world but miracles cannot tell you which religion is true when we go back to the Christian Bible let's just think for a few moments these are the only stories that tell us about the miracles of Jesus the only source is the Christian Bible what we don't have is any outside corroboration any outside substantiation there are no historical sources there were historians that wrote 2,000 years ago there were people who wrote history books like Josephus or there were Roman historians there's no source outside of the Christian Bible that documents these miracles that Jesus did another question how reliable is the Christian Bible how reliable is the Christian Bible for example the Christian Bible says that when Jesus was put on the cross when Jesus was crucified the graves of many righteous people in Jerusalem opened up and these righteous people came out of their graves they walked around Jerusalem and appeared to many people that's an amazing story this is in the Christian Bible the Christian Bible is saying that when Jesus was killed the graves of many righteous Jews were opened these Jews came out of the graves, walked around and appeared to many people now I would think that if that really happened would that be a big news story a very big story that everybody would be talking about it would be amazing hey there's my rabbi from when I grew up and there's my great-grandfather it's amazing and yet there isn't any place that discusses this miracle outside of that one book in the Christian Bible as a matter of fact the Christian Bible talk about this miracle only one but there are three other biographies of Jesus in the Christian Bible no one else mentions it it's not in any Jewish sources it's not in any Roman sources so I ask myself do I really believe that that happened another example in the Christian Bible that when Jesus was born when Jesus was born the ruler at that time was someone named Herod Herod was the ruler and he got very nervous when he was told that Jesus was born because he was told that Jesus is going to be the Jewish Messiah so the Christian Bible says that when Herod heard this 10 soldiers and killed every Jewish baby boy under the age of 2 in the city of Bethlehem and all the surrounding cities because he wanted to make sure he killed this baby and he didn't know which baby it was so he killed all the Jewish baby boys under the age of 2 now again I'll ask you if that really happened would that be a big news story that this King Herod he killed all the Jewish babies in this city and all the surrounding cities under the age of 2 that would be horrible of course we would know about that story and yet no one else discusses that story except for one book in the Christian Bible it's not in the Talmud it's not in Jewish history books it's not in Roman history books so I would say I don't really have a lot of trust in the Christian Bible one more example and there are many but one more example when Jesus was put on trial he's about 30 years old he's put on trial and the Roman ruler who puts him on trial his name is Pontius Pilate Pontius Pilate the Christian Bible says that Pontius Pilate didn't want to kill Jesus he thought that Jesus was doing nothing wrong now the truth is that Jesus was claiming to be the king of the Jews that was a rebellion against the Romans that's the kind of thing where the Romans would kill you in two seconds and yet the Christian Bible says that Pontius Pilate did not want to punish Jesus he wanted to let him go why did he end up shooting Jesus because it says in the Christian Bible the Jewish mobs all the Jewish people pressured him we the Jews forced him into doing it so you get the impression that this Roman was very sweet very nice wouldn't harm a hair on the head of anyone but those mean the Jews they forced him the problem is that there are outside sources that speak about this Pontius Pilate he is written about in Roman sources and he is written about in Jewish sources and we know he was the most violent and vicious and brutal ruler that the Jewish people had in Israel so we have here a contradiction the Christian Bible says he was a nice guy all the other sources say he was a brutal person who killed Jews left and right as a matter of fact the Roman sources tell us so brutal that the Romans themselves took him out of Israel and brought him back to Rome because he conducted so many atrocities against the Jews so we have many reasons for doubting the accuracy of the Christian Bible now I want to discuss one more question before we end for tonight and this is a very serious question if Jesus was not the Messiah so how is it that so many people believe in him the truth is that for most of Christian history people believed in him because that's how they were raised most people in the world if you try to figure out why they are the religion that they are it's because that's how they were raised but the real question is how about 2000 years ago when Jesus had a small group in Israel they thought he was the Messiah they thought at least he would become the Messiah and they see that he is killed on the cross he is executed it's interesting what did Jesus say when he was hung up on the cross so the Christian Bible says that Jesus screamed out my God my God why have you forsaken me that's what Jesus said he said my God my God why have you forsaken me it sounds like Jesus is realizing that he failed he's realizing something went horribly wrong he understood that he didn't come to be killed he understood that he came to bring in a better world he understood that he was supposed to be the king that would make the world a better place that would let the Jewish people have their own land and he died so he understood he's not the Messiah but what about all those people who followed him how could they continue to believe in him if it was obvious that he wasn't the Messiah so I'm going to share with you a few stories and listen very carefully because these are very interesting stories in the year 1648 how many years ago was that almost 400 that's it 1648 it's almost 400 years 400 years ok so almost 400 years ago or about 400 years ago right just to give you a general frame of reference right the Jewish people were scattered all over the world right most of them were not living in Israel many of them were living in Europe and parts of Asia there was a Christian named Wabdan Chemlnitzky I probably can't spell it either anyway this he was a cassa he was a very very violent man and he conducted a pogrom a massacre of about 100,000 Jews he butchered he killed and he was very much traumatized by this pogrom it was a horrible horrible time in Jewish history there were some people who predicted that the Messiah would come in the year 1648 well guess what happened in the year 1648 there was a man named Shapatite Svi a brilliant man a brilliant Torah scholar and he claimed to be the Messiah now don't forget the Jewish people were shaking they were hoping that someone would help them someone would make the world a better place and people were predicting that this is the year it's going to happen so in 1648 this man says I'm the Messiah and you should know that many many many Jewish people followed him now what did it mean he was living in Turkey what did it mean that people followed him so what it meant was that they thought he's going to take them all to Israel because that's what the Messiah is supposed to do and what many of them did was they sold their homes or they sold their possessions and they were getting ready they were preparing to go back to Israel with Shapatite Svi however Islamic government Turkey was ruled by Muslims they threw him into prison and they gave him a choice they said either you convert to Islam or we kill you and in 1666 in the year 1666 he converted to Islam what happened to all those people who thought he was the Messiah do you still think he's the Messiah well obviously many people realized uh oh we made a bad mistake we were wrong but you have to appreciate many Jewish people had put all of their hope in this man they put all their hope in him so when he converted to Islam it was very difficult for them to say we were wrong so many of them believed that the man who was in prison is not the real Shapatite Svi they thought that the real Shapatite Svi went up to heaven the one in prison was a double and that the real one was going to come down from heaven soon to redeem us back to Israel that's what many of them believed that's story number one story number two in the United States I believe in the 1950s so maybe only about 60 years ago not that long ago there was a woman who was a channeler a channeler was someone who claimed that they were able to receive messages from outer space usually from some alien or some extra terrestrial or some spirit in outer space and this woman claimed that there was a spirit that spoke to her that she would take her pen and hold it over the paper and the spirit would move her hand and it would write messages she claimed that the message that she was receiving was that the entire world would be destroyed by a flood on a certain day she attracted a number of followers these followers tried to spread her message there was a professor a psychologist who wanted to study this group he wanted to see what will happen when that day comes and there's no flood right? obviously there was no flood 60 years ago that destroyed the whole world we're still here but he wanted to see what would happen because this woman made this prediction and the whole group that gathered around her was based upon her giving them true prophecy what they discovered was when that date came and it passed and there was no flood the members of the group did not leave the group they became even more aggressive in trying to bring people into the group they became more dedicated to the group not less dedicated very strange one more story in the 1970s only 40 years ago there was a Christian minister in New York who had a very strange message for his church very strange message he told his church if you want to be good Christians you must begin to live like very Orthodox Jews very religious Jews that's what he told them he said you have to wear a kippah you have to wear a beard you have to wear tzitzit you have to get a brithmi la you have to get circumcised you have to keep kosher you have to keep shabbat and all the holidays and that's what happened his entire church became very very Torah observant they began calling him Abba the Hebrew word for father they called him Abba and you should know that he attracted many Jewish people became part of this church many Jewish people became part of this church anyway to make a long story very short they discovered this man was doing terrible things he was molesting little boys in the group and they discovered that he was lying now what do you do if you're a member of this group people had spent ten years in this church they invested all of their energy to be part of this group and now they find out the leader is a very bad man do you just leave and say that our whole life was a joke well some people did many people left but many people stayed and came up with very strange explanations of his behavior they tried to rationalize explain how what he was doing was really a mitzvah it was a good thing now I just shared with you three stories where people believe in something it's very obvious that what they believed is wrong but they had a very difficult time admitting that it wasn't true many of you know about Sigmund Freud famous the doctor Freud and he once said when it comes to self-deception every person is a genius when it comes to deceiving ourselves every person is a genius and so there's an idea that people believe in something very deeply and it turns out that what they believe is not true they have a very difficult time giving up their belief so in the same way that the followers of Shaptait Svi still believed in him after he converted to Islam the followers of this channeler many of them still followed her after her predictions did not come true and the followers of this Christian minister many of them still followed him after it was discovered that he was doing horrible things so too many of the followers of Jesus had a very difficult time admitting that they were mistaken that they were mistaken in following him let's try to understand one more piece we understand now how it was possible for people who witnessed the death of Jesus to still believe in him and come up with again this explanation they said okay he died but he'll come back how did this movement spread to become the biggest religion in the world how did it spread to become the biggest religion in the world so let's share a few reasons you should know that for the first 300 years Christianity was not a very successful movement it wasn't that big but around 300 years later there was the emperor of the Roman Empire was named Constantine Constantine had a mother who became a Christian Constantine was going to fight a big battle and he had a dream that if his army would fight under the side of the cross he would be victorious he would win and that's what happened his soldiers marched with crosses on their shields and they won the battle and so Constantine decided that his entire empire he would unite them under the banner of Christianity so what happened at one point in history was that the ruler of the entire world basically that was the entire known world he told everyone now the official state religion will be Christianity so Christianity got off to a very big head start about 300 years after it was it began I want to share one more observation since that time how did Christianity spread it spread mainly over the past 1700 years mainly by force Christians a while ago many years ago came let's say from Europe to North America and they told people that you have to become Christians they didn't give people a choice so for much of Christian history people were either given a sword or a cross and they were told you kiss the cross or this sword will kiss you that's how for many many many years Christianity spread but the Rambam, Maimonides one of our great rabbis Moses, Maimonides offered another reason to explain why maybe he doesn't know for sure but why maybe did Christianity spread so he said that we know that when the Messiah finally comes the whole world will accept him the Rambam said if the Messiah came to a world where the whole world was pagan the whole world were pagans they didn't believe in God they wouldn't even know what the Messiah was so the Rambam suggests maybe the reason that God allowed Christianity and Islam to spread to the entire world because today most of the world is either Christian or Muslim the Rambam said that what happened with this was that Jewish ideas are being spread to the entire world that now the entire world knows about the Torah now the entire world knows about the concept of the Messiah the entire world believes they think they believe in the God that created the world and now when the Messiah finally comes they'll be able to understand oh now we understand that's the real Messiah so the Rambam says maybe that explains why God allowed the success of Christianity and Islam okay that's the program for tonight and if there are any questions I think you had a question and if there are any other questions we'll take them now you said that there were no sources outside of the Christian sources that verified miracles but isn't that the same for Judaism I mean where is the verification for the splitting of the Red Sea the giving of the Torah what happened in Egypt what do you say to that well I'll repeat the question do you want to see it please repeat it so the question was that we mentioned in the class that there are no outside sources verifying the miracles that took place in the Christian Bible and the question was are there any outside sources verifying the miracles of the Jewish Bible so the answer is as follows the real question is is there any reason for us to believe the accounts of these books meaning the core story the core story of Judaism is that God revealed himself to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai now how do we know that story happened so there's two possibilities possibility number one is that Moses came down from Mount Sinai and claimed that God spoke to him that's possibility number one that's basically what happened in Christianity let me finish answering the question in Islam in Islam and in Christianity and all other religions for example Mohamed claims that God spoke to him through the angel Gabriel Paul claims that he claims that Jesus spoke to him he's assuming that Jesus is God but again whatever the claim is it's Paul claiming that he received a message the other writers of the Christian Bible claims Matthew's not claiming he made up these stories Matthew's claiming that he's speaking as a prophet on behalf of God so all religions basically begin where an individual claims they claim that God spoke to them the difference is that in Judaism it wasn't simply Moses claiming that God spoke to him the Jewish narrative is that every single Jew at Mount Sinai heard God speak to Moses now if it didn't happen then when the book was written and people read it and it says that your ancestors because that's the story that's written that every Jew heard God speak at Mount Sinai again it would have been simpler if the book just said that God spoke to Moses and Moses convinced everyone but the book says every person heard God speak if it didn't happen if that didn't happen when the story was finally written and people are reading it they're going to say God spoke to my ancestors well if that really happened why haven't I heard of it before meaning that if people really did hear God speak at Mount Sinai they would have told their children they would have said guess what happened to me I mean look we tell our children much smaller things in that we see a beautiful sunset or a rainbow and we want to rush and tell everybody so if someone was standing at Mount Sinai and they actually heard God speak they wouldn't just never tell their children so the problem is if this story did not happen but the writers say that it happened the people who are reading this book are going to say no I don't believe it because if it really happened like that how come I never heard of it before and my parents never told me so the unique thing about the Jewish narrative is that the original revelation was done in public in front of the whole nation and you cannot fake that meaning you can't write that if it didn't happen because if it didn't happen and you're writing that it happened it would be challenged the Jewish people challenged everything we would challenge you know everything in the world we questioned so the Jewish people never questioned whether God spoke to them at Mount Sinai and what's interesting is that this story is so firm this story has we call journalism legs that all of Christianity and all of Islam as well no one in the world questions whether or not God spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai so I think comparatively speaking the foundation of Judaism is much much different than the foundation of Christianity again to review the foundation of Christianity rests upon the testimony of one person it's one person either Paul or Matthew or Mark or Luke claiming that God spoke to them and told them to write these words the Jewish narrative is not just Moses claiming that he heard from God it's an entire nation that heard from God therefore when I read the Christian Bible I'm reading a book that I don't have much reason to trust because again it's written by individuals who simply make the claim that God spoke to them but here when I read the Jewish Bible I have a lot of reason to trust what it says so I'm not that concerned that the Egyptians didn't also write about the 10 Plagues I'm not that concerned about it because I have a very very strong reason for accepting the story as written in the Jewish Bible the second answer to your question is that archaeologists now are actually finding some evidence to corroborate the stories in the Jewish Bible we have a Tarantonian that used to live here now and lives in Israel Sincha Yaqabovic that did a film that tries to demonstrate some of the archeological evidence for some of the stories at least in the Tanakh I would emphasize that we as Jews don't need that a second thing to think about is that at the time that the Jewish Biblical miracles happened who else would have known about it the Egyptians let's say is it surprising that the Egyptians would not write about these incredible defeats we understand possibly why Christians wouldn't write about these stories but at the time of Jesus there were many people who should have had no problem writing about what he may have done so I think that the stories are very very different in terms of expecting outside corroboration and secondly whether we need outside corroboration any other questions yes which person Jesus and God Jesus is God for the Christians is Jesus God for the Christians we don't believe he was God for anyone but for the Christians I'll make it clear Christians they believe Jesus was God meaning that Christians believe that God took on human form in this person called Jesus so Christians believe Christians believe that he was God we as Jews do not believe he was God in any shape or form whatsoever we believe he was just a human being and God and Messiah Christians believe that Jesus is Messiah and God how is this possible let's answer your question let's separate the issues the first thing we discussed is was Jesus the Messiah we understand hopefully that he wasn't we understand why he wasn't and why the Christians who believe he is the Messiah why they are wrong that should be the first step we also understand even though they're wrong we understand why it's difficult for them to admit that they're wrong we understand why it was difficult for them to admit that they had made a mistake I'll give you an interesting example did you ever have an argument with someone a fight with a friend and you're arguing back and forth and back and forth and you know that you're wrong but you have a very difficult time admitting that you're wrong does that ever happen it's very common that we are stubborn and we have a very difficult time admitting either to ourselves or to other people that we were wrong the second part of your question how did it happen how did it happen that Christians came to believe that this man named Jesus was God how did that happen so we don't really know but I can suggest two possibilities maybe three possibilities possibility number one Jesus lived in Israel dealt only with Jews the Jews understood that Jesus was not the Messiah that really should have been the end of the story but Paul, a very important person in the history of Christianity Paul was a person who never met Jesus never met him he was not one of Jesus's students but he claimed that Jesus came to him in a vision and that Jesus told him become my follower Paul realized that the Jewish people don't accept Jesus so Paul said since the Jewish people don't accept Jesus Paul said I am going to the Gentiles that's what Paul said I will preach to the Gentiles so Paul does not go around Israel preaching about Jesus Paul goes outside of Israel preaching in the southern Europe and parts of Asia Greece Turkey those areas mainly to non-Jews mainly to non-Jews that they should believe in Jesus now how did he speak about Jesus to these non-Jews he spoke about Jesus in very lofty terms if he used the expression Messiah these non-Jews didn't really know what the Messiah was and Paul would speak about Jesus being a very very almost like an angel like a divine being and so one thing that happened was because Paul was speaking basically to a non-Jewish audience and these were people who didn't have a concept of one God we have to appreciate 2,000 years ago the non-Jewish world were pagans they worshiped rocks and trees and animals and the stars and in the ancient world the Roman world they believed that there were many gods for example the Romans thought that each of the emperors was God so back then you have to appreciate that non-Jews would have very little problem with any ruler and saying that's God so when Paul was telling them this is the Messiah this is a very great person one thing that may have happened is that the audience Paul's audience may have just assumed that he must be a God the second problem maybe that would lead them to believe this I'm not going to that's all we're going to say because the next thing we'll discuss in 2 weeks so we'll leave that for now what I would say is more or less what happened let me give you maybe a good parallel listen carefully throughout its history when Christianity spread throughout the world what often happened was that Christianity would encounter a culture that had its own beliefs for example when Christianity went to Africa so many Christians in Africa even today combined Christianity with their ancient pagan practices of ancestor worship for example it's very common in parts of Africa that people worship their ancestors that's not a part of Christianity but because it was so much a part of their world view so when they accepted Christianity they made a child Christianity they took their old beliefs and they put them all together now they have this form of Christianity and when for example Catholicism came to countries that practiced Voodoo is a practice called a Voodoo it's like a form of witchcraft maybe so Christianity that spread in areas like this formed a religion called Santaria Santaria is basically a combination of Christianity and Voodoo so that's more or less what happened when Paul was spreading his Christian ideas he was spreading it to people who were very used to believing in many many gods in their world view the emperor or the ruler was God so for them to see Jesus as God was quite natural wasn't that strange okay does that answer your question that's so so is it I understand that Pontius Pilate was bad man evil but what the Christian writers have the Jews also why would they typecast the Jews as bane for the blood of Jesus is that an agenda point or is there truth to that so the question is if the Jewish people were not really responsible for the death of Jesus why would the writers of the Christian Bible go out of their way to blame the Jewish people so the answer is actually very simple the Jewish people were a small minority in the world and the Christian Bible was written after much of it was written after the temple was destroyed at least the stories of the life of Jesus were all written after the temple was destroyed and it's at a point where a separation between Christianity and Judaism is emerging the two religions are beginning to split apart because originally all the followers of Jesus were part of the Jewish community but once the temple was destroyed Paul had been already working for about 20 years converting non-Jews and most of the success of spreading Christianity was among non-Jews among Jewish people it was really totally over it was finished so the authors of the Christian Bible have an agenda their effort on some level is to make Christianity more attractive to the non-Jewish world one of the ways in which this is done is by shifting the blame for the death of Jesus away from the Romans onto the Jews the real story of Jesus and his execution was that he was a Jew claiming to be the king of the Jews the Romans considered that to be a rebellion the Romans would kill any rebel so the Romans executed him the Romans crucified him so if the Romans are the bad guys in this story it's going to be difficult to sell this the Romans didn't have any particular love for the Jews so what happens in the writing of the stories is that the responsibility for the death of Jesus is shifted away from the Romans and it's placed upon the Jews the whole Jesus story becomes a fight between the Jewish community and Jesus and the Jewish community are the bad guys that's really why that takes place okay any other questions yeah last I promised that's okay these guys have all night no I think they're tired I don't want to bother them all night what was the name of the leader in New York Jack Hickman Hickman, thank you okay Lila Tome