 All right, we are picking up work this afternoon on H273, which came to us a while ago. We did have an introduction to this by the sponsor of the bill. It's an act related to promoting racial and social equity in land access and property ownership. It is only related to the previous bill that we heard through the fact that it's promoting racial and social equity in land access. And then there's the concept of property ownership and there's a long list of intent and findings in this bill that are important for us to know about. I'm not sure we can get to them all today, but I'm gonna pass the microphone to David who's also just gonna let us know how we can be looking at this language at the beginning of the bill before we get to the bill itself. David. Good afternoon, again, everyone. David Hall, Legislative Counsel. I'm gonna pull my screen up if that's okay. Please do, yeah. H273, an act relating to promoting racial and social equity in land access and property ownership. I wanted to start up at the beginning with a statement of purpose as introduced because it features a language construct that is used throughout the bill and I think helps frame, apropos of our conversation this morning about populations that are targeted for assistance or engagement in these different bills. This is a different and more expansive way of approaching the issue framing the population. So this bill, you'll see on line 12, proposes to promote racial and social equity in land access and property ownership by creating grant programs, financial education and other investments targeted to Vermonters who have historically suffered from discrimination and who have not had equal access to public or private economic benefits due to race, ethnicity, sex, geography, language preference, immigrant or citizen status, sexual orientation, gender identity, socioeconomic status or disability status. So that is obviously an expansive list of Vermonters who have historically suffered from discrimination and not had equal access to economic benefits. We talked a little bit this morning about some of the, basically about the spectrum of ranging from protections to affirmative benefits based on different levels characterizations or categories of breaking up populations from the perspective of state action, government action. And there is, I guess the one thing that I didn't say this morning that I wanted to add to that conversation is that it's not only the letter of the law but also it's implementation where state action can be, could be challenged on the basis of equal protection. And what I mean by that is you can have a law that is basically not creating any sort of race based set aside or allocation or preference but in effect or the way that it is administered by the government, if it plays out that way in administration and in reality in effect, then you could have the bases for those challenges are the same, the burden on the state to demonstrate its compelling interest is the same. And what I mentioned this morning about the state bearing that burden and having to demonstrate having to meet that burden of proof is in that being rooted in findings is an important point that I think is informed or at least touches upon the findings here. There are an extensive amount of information an extensive amount of findings and statements of intent in the bill as it is introduced. Whether you agree with the findings whether you want to refine them or explore them that is gonna be your choice. I mean, a finding is supposed to be that it is supposed to be ideally something that you find and want to memorialize for the record that you're building. Shall I pause? Representative Kalaki, do you have a question? Thank you, David. Okay, Chair. Yeah, please. Okay. David, I just wanna know that in the purpose section is there any protected classes against discrimination that are not included in this list and any of our state anti-discrimination like housing discrimination or employment discrimination? I'll have to look back and double check on that. I'm not certain. Okay, yeah. I can look it up. It's in I think 9PSA 4501 but I'd have to cross check those to be to give you a definitive answer. Okay, thank you. Sure. And that is, I mean, that's for public accommodations and fair housing. Yes, yes. Okay, so with regard to the findings here as I said, very extensive, whether you choose as a committee or as a body or as the legislature to make these findings your own as a policy choice for you to make, I wanted to say the development of legislation and I think you've all been around a while now and know that you all hold a privilege with the attorneys in my office. It's an attorney client privilege. It's also a statutory legislative privilege that you hold so that the request for a bill, the process of developing a bill, those communications are privileged and protected and it's not my privilege to waive. It belongs to the member, the client who is requesting the work by an attorney. So I can't say too much about the provenance of the findings themselves other than to say that they obviously were developed in the course of developing this bill and proposing this legislation and the sponsor working with whomever the sponsor works with is responsible for the bill as introduced, right? Whenever you guys sign off to introduce legislation up until the point it gets released down to the world it's your baby. And once it's introduced and referred by the presiding officer of the body goes to the committee now it's your bill. And so now I work for you, you're all the client and everything that comes next is gonna be your policy choice and what you wanna do with that. I'll say that and this is the last thing I'm gonna say about the findings and intense statements and turn it over to the chair that I did have a hand in the editing and the choice to leave in the citations for a lot of the findings there are primary or secondary sources that are cited in italics and I thought that it was important and significant to leave those in the text of the bill as introduced so that to the extent people wanted to know where some of this came from you could go to those sources and those don't have to stay in the bill. If you ultimately choose to keep the findings you don't also have to keep the citations but they're there for now as part of that record. And lastly, the last thing I wanna say is that the findings and intent are not in all they're not always consistent with the text of the statute that's proposed whereas the statement of purpose and the text of the statute pretty consistently refers to Vermont your suit have suffered discrimination and equal access to benefits due to et cetera the findings and intent and purpose some of that language uses terminology that is different it uses non-white it uses black it uses by pocket uses white. So as I said this morning it's usually good to be consistent across parts of a bill unless there's a good reason not to. So I would I guess raise that for your reflection whether you want all that terminology to be same or not or if it's gonna be different is there a good reason for it, et cetera. I think that's enough prefatory commentary from me on findings and intent Mr. Chair, I turn to you for how to proceed. I'm committee, what is your pleasure on this? I'm because this was given the way that David explain this again, he basically was able to take this information and put it into this form. And in order to give this information I think the time that it needs I would like to be able to invite well talk to the sponsor of the bill and find out who exactly provided this information and who wrote it and give them an opportunity during when we open this bill up for more testimony to come in and explain that, does that make sense or should we read or the option is to do that or to read it through or to skim it now? Again, I've asked you all to be prepared to read it. I'm not gonna judge you whether you have or not but because of the depth of the information and because it's really the work of individuals or a group, I'm leaning right now towards having this coming back to this and letting David just do the bill itself or the bulk of the bill. Does that John, the representative Kalaki and then Walsh? Well, I was about to reach, I think what you just said is right on page 25 or 19 which it says purpose. It seems from there on is really about what the legislative, what would happen in this bill if it was moved forward. So that I'd like to know. And the findings I did read and go into those but I think for this, just so we understand what this bill would do, what it's addressing. So I, but I think I'm agreeing with what you had just said. So thank you. Okay, Representative Walsh and then Murphy. I agree too. I think it's very important to understand the findings and in that instance, it would be really good to hear from the folks from whom that information came to make sure that we really understand it. So I agree with the strategy just outlined that we start with the purpose and move into the bill. Okay, Representative Murphy. Thank you, Chair Stevens. I don't need to be offensive and I hope this isn't taken incorrectly but I totally support your idea of let's go forward with the purpose section three and on. I think that what's in section one and two are very important. They're testimony, they're rationale, they're what the committee could consider but I am uncomfortable when we're writing legislation and we put in that much of prelude that isn't statute. It isn't what we are saying. This is what we are changing. So I just offer that and do look forward to hearing from witnesses here in testimony but that's how I would see those first 19 pages. Okay, thank you. We rarely, in this committee, I've not had too many instances. There have been some where we work with findings but again, this is slightly different. It's important to know where, how it gets included in the bill later on if we move forward with the bill is up to us but I think having it as the backup for what the intent is I think is different than even the findings that we've just put in H-157. Representative Murphy, I'm sorry, Howard. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I concur with my committee members. I would like to hear from witnesses as well. Thank you. On this historical section. Yeah. Yes. Okay, we will reach out to the sponsor of the bill, the primary sponsor of the bill and find out from him where we should invite in to take us through this material. Thank you, committee. And so David, if we can go to section three which you just rolled to and then take us through the statutory portion of the bill. Sure. Happy to do that. So section three purpose. So the purpose of the act is to invest in individual and collective land access and property ownership as a way to move towards greater racial and social equity in wealth distribution. And we reached this point after the findings discussed the disparities in wealth and property ownership and the nexus between health, wealth, property ownership, access to healthy food and land and opportunity, et cetera. So how does the bill itself, what statutory changes does the bill propose to accomplish this purpose? It creates a fund and a board and provides an appropriation. I would say similar to modeled upon in part, if you're familiar with the Working Lands Enterprise Board. So that was created many years ago. It's a board of people who are involved with Working Lands Enterprises and it has a fund and it has a board structure with a diverse group of board members who make decisions about how to allocate those funds that are appropriated to that fund. And this is a similar construct. You'll see in section four here, 10 VSA section 12, creating the Vermont Land Access and Opportunity Fund. So there is created a special fund, it's in the state treasury, it has a name. And the reference here to 32 VSA chapter seven, sub chapter five being mindful of representative Murphy's good observation this morning that it's good to know what the cross references are. There is a provision entitled 32 chapter seven, sub chapter five that relates to the creation and management of special funds within state government. So obviously we have the general fund, we have transportation fund, we have the education fund, et cetera. There are also a significant number of special funds that are state administered and are segregated. There are kind of a lot of inside baseball rules about who it finance management keeps the spreadsheet and cuts the checks and does the warrants and what happens to the interest that it earns and all that jazz. And it also says that when you create a new special fund, you need to do certain things like say who's gonna manage it, et cetera. So that's what's going on here. We're saying as a general rule, this is gonna follow the rules that all special funds follow with a few twists in B. One, the Vermont land access and opportunity board will be the one to administer the fund. That's a common construct. Two, the funds shall comprise monies appropriated to it by the general assembly and other public or private monies the board accepts. Three, unexpended balances in any earnings shall remain in the fund from year to year. They won't revert anywhere else. They don't go to the general fund. And four, the board shall expend monies from the fund consistent with the powers and duties specified in the next section. So if you're familiar with the Working Lands Enterprise Fund, you would notice that this functions basically the same way. The next section, 10 VSA 13 creates the board that manages the fund, the Vermont Land Access and Opportunity Board. So A, it's created as a function of statute and for administrative purposes would be attached to ACCD. Fairly typical means they get sort of ministerial support, administrative support from the agency. Under B, the organization, this is where obviously we specify who is on the board and how they get there and what they're, in this context, what their constituency is. So one, B1, we have the Executive Director of Racial Equity or Designee. B2, three members appointed by the Vermont Commission on Native American Affairs, at least two of whom are Abnaki. B3, two members appointed by the Vermont NAACP. B4, a member appointed by the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. Five, a member appointed by Vermont Relief Collective. Six, a member appointed by the Vermont Everytown Project. Seven, a member with financial expertise appointed by the Secretary of Commerce. Eight, a member with real estate expertise appointed by the Commissioner of Housing and Community Development. Nine, a member of farming expertise appointed by the Secretary of Agriculture. 10, a social worker with expertise in anti-racism appointed by the National Association of Social Workers, Vermont Chapter. And 11, two members appointed by the Pride Center of Vermont who are LGBTQ. Those are the board members. So C, this is kind of boilerplate member term priority composition. So a member of the board shall serve a term of three years or until the member's earlier resignation or removal. An appointing authority shall fill a vacancy pursuant to subsection B above. Three, when selecting members of the board, appointing authority shall give priority to and shall seek to a balanced mix of Vermonters who have historically suffered from discrimination and who have not had equal access to public or private economic benefits due to. And it's the same group as above in the statement of purpose. So under D, the board may elect officers establish committees and subcommittees adopt procedural rules as necessary and appropriate to perform its work. E, quorum voting a majority of the sitting members constitute the quorum. The board may take action by a majority of the members present and voting at any regular or special meeting in which a quorum is present and three permits meetings to occur through electronic telecommunications or video or audio conferencing, which is hilarious to think was a cutting edge concept added to our statutes, particularly in the authorizing statutes for business organizations 10 years ish ago. And look at us all now. F compensation, private sector members are entitled to per diem compensation for each day spent in the performance of their duties. Their cross references to the standard provision entitled 32 that governs the per diem compensation for special committees, et cetera. I think that's $50 a day plus expensive but I'd have to double check that. See powers and duties. So the board shall have the authority and duty to promote racial and social equity and property ownership for Vermonters who have historically suffered discrimination as we've seen as follows. One, so this is what the board does. The board shall award grants for the purchase of primary residence to grants for the purchase of a farm property or land deemed suitable for regenerative practices. Three, grants for land access and stewardship programs. Four, funding to new and existing financial education, wealth management and regenerative natural resource programs led by focused on Vermonters who have historically suffered from discrimination. Five, the board shall retain wealth, financial and natural resource advisors who are Vermonters who have historically suffered discrimination and not had equal access. And B, use the services of those advisors to provide and create education, wealth management and regenerative natural resource services to grant recipients. Six, the board shall award grants to anti-racist mutual aid networks that support recipients of grants for homeownership and land purchasing. Seven, the board shall award grants to group proposing to share land, to create commons and for collective ownership. Eight, the board shall grant funds to the every town project to purchase and hold land and trust in every municipality in Vermont in order to promote land access and stewardship by Vermonters who have historically suffered discrimination. Nine, the board shall work with VHFA to explore ways to apply grants to mortgage subsidies and explore ways to overcome the barriers to obtaining a mortgage including debt to income ratios, redlining, impact of algorithmic systems and decision-making. Under 10, the board shall work with the Vermont Department of Taxes to explore ways to provide tax breaks to properties attached to the grants. I'll just say those last two, usually would be more a session law type directive. It's not necessarily gonna be a permanent list of duties 50 years from now versus these are more immediate work with them and then we'll come up with long-term steps action items that the board would take. But just a matter of statutory construction here or how it is constructed. So eligibility in some section H, the board shall have the authority to adopt rules concerning eligibility criteria for recipients and rules for the use of grant funds which will include income guidelines, limits on the amount of grants and rules governing the transfer of grant-funded properties, generational poverty, inheritance, and impact of any other assistance already received. And then two, the board shall allocate grants to achieve a balanced, healthy mix of private ownership and collective ownership. So as a matter again of just how this statute she has put together, you know, subsection H on the spectrum of flexibility and authority delegated to an entity, this is pretty broad, right? You know, obviously whenever you design a program, there's usually some mix of statutory guidance and requirements and then administer you fill in the details. This is quite broad and, you know, something you may be fine with, may want to flag for further refinement. I don't think it crosses the line over into a violation of the delegation doctrine which says that, you know, the legislature can't give away its legislative authority to say what the law is. It can delegate for the administration and implementation of a law once it says what the standards are. So because H1 tells them what to include, you know, as far as income guidelines, limits, other rules, you're in better shape than just a carte blanche sort of, you have unfettered discretion in determining whatever you want for how you use this money. There are, I think there's enough parameters for it to be an acceptable scope of delegation. Lastly, section six, appropriations. So this is an FY22 general fund appropriation $10 million to the Land Access and Opportunity Fund for grants and other expenditures approved by the board. And because it has the FY22 appropriation and other things that probably would coincide with the new fiscal year, the whole bill right now is slated to take effect on July 1st of this year. That's it. David, just quickly before I get to other questions. We've talked a lot about task forces and summer study committees and expenses and whatnot and the $50 a day plus expenses. When we have members of either your time or in this case, the director of racial diversity, I mean, they serve on their salary time, correct? As long as they're state employees. Yeah, so that provision that's cross-reference 32 VSA 1010 basically says you get the $50 per day to the extent you're not acting in your capacity as a state employee or other compensated position. So someone has a point, a 1.0 in an FTE. We're saying that they need to somehow fit in whatever 0.2, 0.4 that this time I take for this year for them to fit it into their existing schedules, all right? Or their designee. Yes. Representative Murphy, then Parsons. Thank you, I have a couple of questions. My first is just I noticed the absence of numerically stating the board membership. It lists them and I tallyed them up on my fingers and I think I came up with 15, but it seemed to be an absence that I haven't noticed in other bills and whether that doesn't put a cap on it and leaves it open to be added to. Just curious on that point. You can do it either way. Sometimes when, you know, you're making a lot of refinements or changes to what the number is or who's there, it just, it, the math can get wonky and not add up as in our bill this morning. And sometimes it's easier to just be silent on the number until you actually know what the final number is. Thank you. So it would be something that we wanted to just put maybe a placeholder, a blank, something as a reminder that at some point we'd identify the quantity of members. Yes. And my other question is a little bit funny. But I realized that in the couple of places, especially on page 24 on line 21, we speak, we use the category of Vermonters. We specify Vermonters who have been affected. And I'm just curious if we ever define a Vermonter because it's a question. Are we speaking of someone who is a legal resident of Vermont? Or I mean, we've run into this with the vaccines in this pandemic. You know, is it someone who's moved here and intends to be here? Is it someone who's had history and the impact was as a Vermonter or are they just here now and over their life have been impacted? So I think that's probably a big question. Sorry, chair. I kind of opened a big door on that one. But I think the definition of Vermonter might be critical for this bill. Okay. Again, that's. That we will flag that and have that conversation. Representative Parsons, then Byron. Thank you, chair. I was just curious of. The legality of requiring a sexual preference as two members appointed who are of the LGBTQ. Are you, is that an allowable thing? I certainly wouldn't be forward if it said straight male. I can't imagine. Is that, is that a legal thing to do requiring a member. Be chosen. Based on sexual orientation. You know, my gut reaction is that it's not a legal problem. Because it's not. It's not conferring any benefit or. You know, setting up a situation where there's discrimination based on a presence or absence of any factor. I mean. It's it's absence of a factor. Well, I don't know either you have blue eyes or a person can be like if they have blue eyes, you know, I mean, either, I'm not sure what it would be like to be a member of the LGBTQ. Or in a particular way. In terms of. Confirming a government benefit or prohibiting some kind of. Activity that would otherwise be allowable, for instance, in the public accommodations act. This is a state created. Board that has, you know, once that have. A composition that's reflective of as just. Here we're talking about populations of people who have historically suffered discrimination and then a board created to try to assist them. But the, but so it's not going to that benefit or that assistance it's just going to the board member. So is it a, is it a legal problem. No, is it a policy choice for you to make absolutely. I guess I just say that if it stopped after saying a member of the be chosen by the member of the pride center of Vermont that seems totally fine in my book but it just seems saw that the state would be creating boards and you are or not allowed to be on that board based on the sexual preference in this. I hear you I think it's a, it's a policy choice for you guys, I also would say that you know as to the other constituent groups. You know, I don't know the extent to which all of these are formal organizations, whether they have a process for, you know, how this appointment would work. I was under the impression that there are two chapters of the NAACP in Vermont but I may be wrong about that so I would say on all of these you would, you would want to do your homework and make sure, you know that these are all organizations that can be recognized and operate to the extent necessary to identify members who you choose. And, and the other thing I would say is I think I am not the expert on Native American affairs, and I know that for different purposes how you refer to persons of different ancestry for purposes of federal and state laws very important. So if that in any way becomes an issue for you, it might be good to talk to Damien about that. Yeah, and I think some of the, the proposed expenditures or grants or also would have to be reviewed we don't the appropriations committee tends not to do direct appropriations to nonprofit groups unlike the I mean they'll do it to VHCB or VHFA and other organizations like that that are basically NGOs, but for instance we saw in the, I believe in H315 where the original plan was to appropriate $650,000 or so to VLCT to help municipalities deal with the planning grant money and the incoming money that's coming directly to to municipalities, and they change that so that it's a grid so it's essentially a grant that's going that's going to be given through ACCD or DHCD, but it's going to be, you know, it had to be done on an application form. Yeah, thank you. So I think I know my, my questions answer but in the appropriations section so the $10 million. That would be a one time appropriation and I assume that the opportunity fund is a revolving loan fund. Is that the intent of this is to see the money, get loaned out be recouped or would we need to replenish this should it become exhausted through the grant process. Well, so it's a good question. You know, most of these duties actually call for grants, rather than loans. I think you would want to specify that they could be grants or loans or if you want them to be just loans and if you wanted to revolve I think that you would want to be explicit about how that is structured. Okay. And that's a conversation that we'll also have with that 79 with that section that the Senate didn't include about about the first time home buyers and where they become grants and where their loans. But this, this is, this is grant, grant heavy in this draft. And again, this is a proposal from the sponsors of the bill on that was trying to know basically that that the attorneys worked on to present it to us. Any further questions for David right now. It's definitely a different concept of bills that we've worked on in the past in the recent past so it's it's. You know so I don't, I don't want to, I don't think we need to go too deep into the weeds on it but I just wanted to make sure we started out just to hear it, and to get an understanding of what the structure of it is representative Murphy. Thank you. I first of all want to thank David for following up on my mention this morning about the following the law and when we, when we cite a section, how you know what it says, but I wondered if for the new members and just maybe a refresher for all of us. If while we have you, excuse me I'm out of breath the stump grinder came and I had to run down and speak to him. If we could have David just use the share screen and show us the ledge page and show us where to find the laws and where to even do a search of them. It really isn't very hard once you're just given a little bit of a map of how to get there, and I, if we had five minutes I think that could be really valuable in the future if not at the moment. I don't know David if you want to do a do a thing one I mean, the last gasp non technical way I would do it would be to highlight. I'm using my cursor I highlight the bill and highlight the reference and Google it with make sure you have vt in there and chance sorry you come up to where David's going to take us right now. I'm happy to do that. Let me, let me share this screen. Make sure I'm only showing the legislative page and not my credit cards David or anything. I'm going to show you the legislative page. Do you want to see my email. So you're seeing the Vermont General Assembly homepage at this point. Great. Yeah, so, you know anytime you want to go back to this obviously just would collect you click here. If you want to look up the statutes that are referenced in a bill that you're seeing then you would go to Vermont laws. And you can go directly to the statutes online right here remember that these statutes are organized by title and then by chapter, then by in some cases sub chapter, then sections, sub sections and subdivisions. They start. There's 33 titles we start sort of with the biggest picture general government legislative branch executive branch judicial branch, and then we're off to the races from there. So my ag is in six a lot of the work that I do in my other life commerce and trade are an eight and nine you guys I know do the title seven stuff sometimes the VAC B stuff we looked at this morning and sort of development act to 50 those things are we have a series of business organizations through the 11 that stuff that I work on. And we move over to judiciary type things court procedure crimes, trust, blah, blah, blah. Education, and then we move into government stuff to health, highway security, you guys do a lot of labor title 21 motor vehicles and 23 zoning subdivisions that type of regional governments are entitled 24. Not a lot in title 25 honestly the work you did for the contractors is here in 26 property real property is in 27. You Kyowa, something else I staff relates to housing and common interest communities in 27 a we've got public institutions and property kind of government services stuff. Public service title 30 is you know like the public service for telecommunications those types of things. Here we've got horse racing and gambling taxes and money is entitled 32 and then human services is the newest title title 33. Whenever you see the right the reference to 32 VSA, whatever, you would go to the link and now we have all of title 32. Right. The chapters are great the way this is set up online you can either go find the specific section you want within or you know you open the whole chapter up. And you can either again select a particular section of law, or if you go all the way down to the bottom. You can open the entire chapter at once and you know if you all are wanting to educate yourself on how a certain kind of statutory scheme is put together. It's really best to read the chapter in its entirety rather than just an independent section of law because, even though each section of law is supposed to be freestanding it. It's always part of a broader scheme, we call that often reading statutes in powering material. If you want to search, you can either go here or here and use sort of the internal Vermont search system here, or you can go one step further and actually go over to Alexis nexus, which we have a contract with so that you can do a Boolean search or more tailored search within our statutes. If you want to look up bills, rather than the statutory law itself and that is here. There's a bill act and resolution search. And this is broken down all kinds of ways. You'll also see that along the left sidebar here you can navigate. You can change sessions be careful that you're looking in the right place because if you do change your session, you will be looking at old bills and old acts. It will let you know that by turning orange. And then when you're done in an older session you can just return to our current session. Your committee pages are all here. Excellent resource for information. How specific stuff including your calendars your journals, your rules are all here same with the Senate and of course your streaming links joint fiscal office maintains its own web page and it's broken up, you know by subject and publication you can search around there. If you need to find a report that's been given to submitted to the legislature, then you would do that here. And you'll see a very long list of reports which you can refine by typing in a keyword, right. And that's about it if you need to get in touch with one of us or somebody we have the directory here. And then there's lots of nice pictures of the State House if you wanted to look around. David. Yes. So, in the bill that replumely as a co-sponsor of the age 232. Yeah, that we just heard about earlier today. There is section to 10 VSA subsection 303 is amended to read. How do I find 10 VSA subsection 303. We go to Vermont laws. We'd go to statutes online. We would scroll down to title 10. Yeah, okay. Then that's 10. That's the 10 in 10 BSA Vermont statutes annotated. What was the section again. 303. All right, so we would scroll down until we find the chapter in which 303 appears that's chapter 15. This is the creation of the Vermont Housing Conservation Trust Fund. We would open that up, and then we could either go again specifically to 303. Right, or we could open up the whole chapter, whichever one you prefer. I got, I got what I needed now thank you. Yeah, perfect. I needed that simple version. I'm so, I'm so glad to be able to do this. This is great. David, I really appreciate it. I think that not having been able to be in the house are all of our freshman class and anyone that was appointed or just didn't get to do an intro course. I don't know how they've done it. I know my first year I got a great ring through with orientation. But it, if you don't get the map, you just feel lost and it's amazing how much information is available to us if someone just gives us that key and you did a great job giving the key so thank you. My pleasure. And if we were in the building, I mean, I'm like the kind of person who would sit, if I needed to look up a word in the dictionary, I'd get back to my work a half an hour later because I'd go look at all the different words as they went along and the statutes are like that too because they're not only not only are they put in a linear fashion but they're all annotated so they have a history lesson that you can decipher eventually as you're going along to you can get lost forever in them. But this is the this technology, like I said, let's let you cut and paste and find what you're looking for for making those connections. As representative Murphy was pointing out earlier today so. All right, anything else for David right now. All right. Then let's be done for the day committee. Welcome back Chip I'm glad you rushed back for the last two minutes. Yeah, we'll we'll just be on the floor tomorrow morning and then doesn't look like I have anything scheduled after the floor. Did anybody notice a calendar today. I didn't. Yeah I don't think that there's a lot but we have we have a one o'clock back in committee right. Yes. Yeah. I just wanted to make these last couple days a little bit lighter than the first couple days of the week. We put in our hours this week and we do. We are meeting after the floor. Oh we are having an introduction and walk through. Yes. Shipping licenses. Yeah, reciprocity. Good times. And that's actually sorry we are going to work tomorrow morning after the floor and that's actually going to have a little bit of a grand home one on one. So it's a little bit of the alcohol law. That's going to talk about we're going to try to have a talker talk about what it means and what this. How alcohol spirits beer and wine are are able to be shipped because we're going to have these questions people are asking us to be able to ship different things to you know to consumer. We keep, we keep losing you. Chair, you keep freezing on us. I can take it from killer, you know, and then do can we cross state line. We couldn't hear you. Yeah. There's been a great deal of interest with the manufacturing sector, especially with COVID about opening up the ability to do direct to consumer shipping. So this is a short form that was introduced that touches on the subject through the eyes of the brewing industry. It's a bigger conversation once you get to spirits. So this is basically an introduction to the, the grander concept through this short form bill. Yeah, so we'll take some time and we'll take some time and get into the get into some of our what we can and cannot do at this point in time. There is one new bill on the floor tomorrow. It's h 20 pre trial risk assessments. So we'll, we'll do third vote on h 225 and then one more bill. Okay. All right. So let's be done for today. Thanks everybody.