 Bingo! One o'clock, block! One o'clock, rock! We're here on Think Tech Life in the Law. We are honored, truly honored to have with us Evelyn Lance, retired lawyer and judge of the Family Court of the First Circuit. Correct. Thank you for coming on the show, Evelyn. My great pleasure. Let me talk about you for a minute. You were admitted to the bar in the state of Hawaii in 1974. You were appointed to the Family Court in 1980, and you were on the Disciplinary Commission of the Bar Association for 12 years, and you recently just got off that. Twelve years just recently. Correction, it's the Disciplinary Board of the Supreme Court. Pardon me, okay. Very important. And you have been active in the... This is really defining now. You've been active in the ABA Rule of Law project, where you started out by spending one year in Macedonia, and then you've had various trips and experiences all over the world, you know, finding out about the rule of law and trying to create awareness about the rule of law. The most important thing, really, in our time, to bring the world up to that level. What a great career you have. Well, I think this goes to the subject of this program, which is life in the law. And while the first responsibility of every attorney is to do best to represent his or her clients and follow the Code of Professional Responsibility, there are broader ways in which you can contribute. And for me, that was an opportunity a few years after I retired and after my husband had passed away and my children left the house. And at that time, about 1990, the American Bar Association developed a project which was then called CLEE, Central European Law Initiative, and to try to improve justice systems and judicial independence in the so-called emerging democracies. At that time, Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Central Asia, and I had an opportunity to do some work there and had about 10 years of wonderful experiences meeting real people all over the world other than American tourists and hopefully planting a few seeds. That's the way to travel, the real mission. So in the Macedonian experience, the shots had already been fired. And we're not in a war zone, per se, but it was like after the war zone. Well, Macedonia itself was never really a war zone. At one side, this is bordered with Serbia in the north with Kosovo and on the west Albania and the south Greece. But we arrived just after the Kosovo bombing had stopped. And the capital of Pristina of Kosovo was only about 40 miles from the capital of Macedonia, Skopje. So we were getting all the refugees and a lot of aid organizations from all over the world, Europe, Japan. And it was just a fascinating, wonderful, incredible time. Why did you do it? That's a good question. I was ready for something new to fill some gaps in my life. I've always enjoyed travel. We lived abroad for a short time earlier, and it sounded something that would really be enjoyable as well as rewarding. And it was. It was. It would, a great ten years. Ten years. So what did you do in the project? I mean, what was your day like? What kind of functions did you perform? Who did you deal with? What did you achieve? Okay, I can't give you a short answer on that. I know. The ABA started this project in about 1990 and established offices in these countries. And by the time I got to Macedonia, I think it had been going about five years, we had three, we were called liaisons. We had three American volunteer liaisons. My project was working with the Judges Association. They had a very active Judges Association and the leaders of that association really wanted to improve how they worked, how they could gain more public respect. It was a transition from the Soviet system where a minister might call them up and tell them how to decide a case. It was called Telephone Justice. It worked with the Bar Association on sustainability. They were having some major corruption problems. It was not supervised by the Supreme Court as it is here. It worked with the law school. We brought in some visiting people from the U.S. to help them establish clinical legal education because the system was so theoretical. I worked with a domestic violence NGO that was lobbying to get a domestic violence law passed and we did a lot of public education. We did a whole lot of stuff. It was great fun. So is it a sort of an arbitrage of ideas? Say, you know, what we know, what we aspire to in the U.S. as against the problems they had there or wherever you were to try to consult with them and show them a better way? I think we did not want to say we want to show you how the U.S. does it. It was international principles. We looked at a lot of international documents and conventions that I had, as an American, I had never known existed. I didn't know the difference between the European Commission. You had to prepare for this. You had to educate yourself. I educated myself when I got there. But it used to infuriate me when Justice Scalia would talk about how international law doesn't apply in the United States. He doesn't want to be considered as president either, by the way. Yeah, I think so. Well, very interesting. So aside from Macedonia and Kosovo and all that, where else did you serve? Well, I did, I was in Russia for three months. I've been to the Stans, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan. One of the most, perhaps the most exciting thing that we did in 2005, we held a conference in Amman, Jordan for Arab women lawyers and judges. They started with judges, but they weren't enough and it expanded to lawyers. We had two or three delegates from each of 14 Middle Eastern and North African Arab countries. Tony Blair's wife, Sherry Booth, the human rights lawyer, was our keynote speaker. And this was the first time these women had ever had a chance to talk to each other. And there was a great spread. Morocco had 500 out of 3,000 of their judges were women. Saudi Arabia women were not even allowed to take the bar examination. And we had two lovely young women who had graduated from the law faculty of their university and were working in male law firms interviewing the female clients that the male lawyers weren't allowed to interview. But it was, they formed an organization and they had annual meetings for a while and then it kind of faded. You went to Nepal? I was in Nepal at a time when this was about 2009 when the Maoist rebellion had, there are several Maoist organizations but the extreme one had stopped their revolution or were stopped and they had a constituent assembly whose task was to draft a constitution and they had a year to do it but they still haven't finished it. But my part of it was to help them with provisions in the constitution that relate to judicial independence. And some of these people had no more than a third grade education and I remembered someone saying that, well the way to have an independent judiciary was to have judges elected so they would be responsible to the people. And this has always been a big issue in the United States as well of course because we have so many elected judges and while I was there I remember looking at my computer and there was a United States Supreme Court case which was decided while I was there and it was called Caperton versus Massey. Mr. Massey was the CEO of the famous Massey Mines which had had numerous disasters and was finally closed down recently but a plaintiff had brought a wrongful death action against the Massey Mines and one in the trial court and then the defendant Massey Corporation appealed to the West Virginia Supreme Court. In the meantime one of the liberal Supreme Court justice was retiring and Mr. Massey put two million dollars into the campaign of his chosen candidate and the Supreme Court then reversed the trial court decision. Members of the Supreme Court were elected by the Supreme Court. Yes well a lot of states still have that but the interesting thing was the plaintiff had a clever lawyer because in appealing to the Supreme Court and ultimately United States Supreme Court they argued that the plaintiff had been denied his due process of law during the appeal because the justice had not recused himself and believe it or not the Supreme Court ruled in this plaintiff's favor and said if it smells like a duck and quacks like a duck I thought this case would make great news all over the United States and it died in a better day. Yeah but that does in fact legally have a it's an exciting precedent when you're dealing with election of judges it undermines and that's a good thing this notion of election of judges. Well I think so and I think in Hawaii we feel very fortunate we don't have it I think there's still about 33 states that do elect judges at least at some point in the system sometimes they're appointed but then have to run for election for retention. Why don't you tell the people why it's a problem to elect judges what are the dark sides of that. Well you know I think if we had judicial elections here in Hawaii it would be very difficult as much as a judge tried to distance himself or herself from the campaign not to think that when a case came up against you in which Bank of Hawaii or first Hawaiian Bank or Hawaiian Electric was a client that there had not been a contribution to your campaign. Yeah sure yeah and there's the appearance of you know that's so important in judicial conduct and in the codes of judicial conduct is that actual impropriety is not the only impropriety there has to be an appearance of propriety and any appearance otherwise has to be avoided. Yeah and that's the center really of this part of our discussion isn't it Evelyn it's the duty of the lawyer to build public confidence in the system because one of the firmest pillars of the administration of justice is public confidence and it's very important for lawyers to do whatever they need to do whatever they have to do to build confidence and judges to in the system. And one of the things that we did in several of the places I worked was to put together a conference of judges and the media because the judges a lot of them had no understanding that their courtrooms were public and that anybody could watch a trial and you know when the media said anything the least bit questionable about them there were threats of lawsuits what else is new right. Especially now these days. But we we try to show that by having an open courtroom and having a judiciary spokesperson which could give information to the media that the judge it would be to the judges benefit because if they can show people the reasons why they are deciding a case that there will be more public trust than that will benefit the whole system. Can you carry it too far but for example what do you think about videotaping proceedings in courts. I haven't had any experience with it. I think it wouldn't happen in family court here so I don't really I think yeah I think there are cases where there's a lot of public interest and and and public of public right to know and those two are not always consistent as the. Sure his name that the the box of murdered his wife. Oh yes Simpson Simpson football player excuse me. There are cases that it might be appropriate for example if there's a constitutional issue or an issue about international dealings or something like that but I don't have a firm opinion on it. Yeah okay well it's really interesting but the general idea is that in a lawyer's daily practice taking clients taking causes advancing positions making arguments he should keep that in mind don't you think it's not an ethical thing it's a trying to see yourself as an emissary of the government to the public you're the connection between the government and the public and how the public feels about the government and if you you know diminish the quality of the government in the eyes of the public you're diminishing the system and you're undermining you know the this that the holy sacred con compact between the public and the Constitution and I think the rules in our Hawaii code of professional responsibility which pretty much follows the ABA model called they emphasize that if you look at the rules on conflict of interest and even rules on trust accounting and all those things. So you would agree with me that it goes beyond strictly compliance with ethical standards it is more of like it's it's ethical standards and an appearance that ethical standards have been complied with I think. We are doing the right thing we're doing the right thing for the country for the people we're noble and idealistic that sort of thing. And sometimes lawyers do have a dilemma as to when the personal interest of the client may not be the same as the public interest and it may not be anything which is a law violation but then that lawyer has to think that through. I remember a short story I remember a piece on TV it might have been 60 minutes or one of those kinds of programs and they had hidden cameras and they were the people who set the program up they were going to various lawyers in lower Manhattan and they were you know trying to get the lawyer to take the case and the case was money laundering it was it was a an attempt to get the lawyer to represent somebody who who pretty much presented as someone who wanted to wander money and most of them by the way this is not good most of them agreed to take the case or provided advice and some of their advice was pretty pretty sleazy. One lawyer one lawyer an older gentleman a solo practitioner in lower Manhattan they came in they presented and he said I'm not gonna do that. Good for him. And you're out of my office goodbye we're not gonna talk anymore. Well you know I think the code is clear that a lawyer may not be involved in a client who is going to violate the law in future as to representation of somebody who did launder money but is now longer no longer doing it that's a personal dilemma for the lawyer I think and that's what you're talking about. Yeah and it's something that you know you may it may be a very gray area in a given case it probably is a gray area in a lot of cases but at least it's something the lawyer ought to think about because he's part of a process he is the agent of the government in a sense part of the government and he needs to keep that in mind because his conduct is going to shape our society. On that note we're going to take a short break that's retired judge Evelyn Lance we're gonna come back and talk some more about this we can talk about you know the the international aspect and international or national and international organizations that lawyers might see fit to join and support again because of the duties of a lawyer that go beyond just practice we'll be right back. Aloha I'm Kaui Lucas host of Hawaii is my mainland every Friday here on Think Hawaii I also have a blog of the same game at kauilukas.com where you can see all of my past shows join me this Friday and every Friday at 3 p.m. Aloha. Aloha my name is Mark Shklav I am the host of law across the sea join me every other Monday when we bring lawyers who know how to get across the sea to meet people and resolve problems into your house thank you. Thank you for watching Think Tech I'm Grace Chang the new host for Global Connections you can find me here live every Thursday at 1 p.m. we'll be talking to people around the islands or visiting the islands who are connected in various aspects of global affairs so please tune in and Aloha and thanks for watching. Okay we're back we're live life in the law with retired judge Evelyn Lance who's done many many things in her career many admirable things and in the number of places and especially in Hawaii and one of the things you know is is is focused on the duty of a lawyer as a member of you know the profession as the representative of the government as a special special person in the community his duty or her duty beyond just practicing just representing clientele I think it's especially important now because we have to build confidence I mean I I think clearly what happened this recent elections a lot of people are not confident about the government that was revealed we didn't know it already and now it's time to look at exactly how you do that and one of the ways you do it is you you belong to our society our community and you've done that so I'm interested in the kinds of organizations the kinds of activities Evelyn that you feel are appropriate for lawyers to participate in the go beyond just representing clients I love to talk about that but but just briefly I you you mentioned the lawyers due to represent the government and I think you meant that in a sense of an increasing trust in the government but there are times when the lawyer has to perhaps not represent the government so one of the organizations that I've supported for several years and if I were about 20 years younger I might go to Mont Gumrielle, Alabama right now and say here I am how can I help is the Southern Poverty Law Center and they were created and founded in 1971 and started pursuing hate groups and particularly the Ku Klux Klan in 1987 the SPLC filed a bongful death suit against the Ku Klux Klan in a particularly gruesome lynching of a young man in Alabama and won a seven million dollar verdict by jury and was able to execute that judgment by having the Klan ordered to transfer their main organizational headquarters property to the mother of the young man who was killed and since then they've continued their activities their website by the way is SPLCenter.org and Southern Poverty Law Center yeah they publish a quarterly newsletter in which they and this is all on their website in which they list the number of hate crimes that are happening in each state they keep prosecuting a lot of these people they have a hate map and they have been reporting an increase not only in hate crimes in the last six months but in the number of organizations that are doing this so they are a wonderful organization and you know what they they need volunteers they need money all those things yeah I'll tell you a short story again if you don't mind I was in the Coast Guard you know and when I was transferred from Hawaii to New York City and my boss in New York City a wonderful man his name is George Weller and he was a senior officer my my boss is a lawyer officer and when I got to when I got to New York I found that he wasn't there he was actually in jail because he had been on a freedom ride in Alabama and they didn't care much that he was in the Coast Guard they just arrested him and and he had to spend some of his leave time in jail in Alabama and when he came back that's when I met him and he explained to me that as far as he was concerned this was part of his duty as a professional as a lawyer they had to do the right thing and they had to advance these you know these causes and these interests I found it quite remarkable the year was 1968 you can imagine how high feelings were running that well I remember it must have been in the late 80s or early 90s one of the annual bar association luncheons here the guest speaker was Morris Deese who was the person who started the Southern Poverty Law Center and he talked about exactly what we're talking about about the whole life in the law and how it involves organizations like SPLC so there are many organizations that you can join as a lawyer that have nothing to do with your practice they don't earn you a farthing they probably cost you money to spend your time with them on the other hand it's it's it's part of life in the law and then you've you've been a clear model in that regard you for example you have participated over years and years in the arts here in Hawaii in the in the Hawaii Opera Theater can we talk about that well you join me in that you were on the board for a time as well I've been on the board for about 35 years but to me the arts whether it's the visual arts or the performing arts round out our lives and it has been established that children's activity and music in the arts is so important in building their the way their brain works and and in making them feel a part of the larger community and Hawaii Opera while in the 35 years or so that I've been involved I've seen the artistic quality of the main productions increase fantastically we just did a wonderful traditional elbow M in October but there's also an extensive education program and the education programs of HOT reach about 22,000 school children and there's a particular project called the Opera Residency in which three or four elementary schools every year are chosen HOT education staff goes in and works with the kids and they the kids produce an opera about a one-hour version of a traditional opera they do everything they build sets they make costumes a two two or three elementary schools are now writing their own operas why Kelly was the first one and the kids write the story and the poetry for the the songs the aria and then the HOT staff will find some operatic music that that suits that particular vibe and it's a wonderful thing they even do learn how to do development by going out perhaps and asking local merchants by contributing something for the sets or the costumes HOT is trying to expand its reach to other parts of the community so for example the opera which comes up at the end of January is an opera written by Andre Previn American composer and conductor based on Tennessee Williams play a streetcar named desire I think that'll be fabulous well that keeps the art form alive doesn't exactly I don't know when I come home and feel troubled I turn on music and it does it for me yeah and it does it for other people and a great gift to a child is to show him or her that you can have the joy of music you can have the you know I go to the opera and invariably in La Boa Mama it's an emotional experience for me I can't I can't help myself and I want kids to know that how that works my children have these musical genes and they've been expressed in other ways I have a son and grandson who do a lot of rock I have another son who's a blues guitarist but it's all music and it's wonderful yeah and it's good for our community and if we want to build the kind of community that will be sustainable in the future that will come together that will be at a level that we that we we want then we have to teach them music we have to teach them togetherness we have to the lawyers have to get out there and do these things I know you've been involved in a number of charities and I admire you so much Evelyn for that well thank you but I think that this this is part of life in the law also because when you contribute to the larger community in any way at all you are contributing to a community that can have public involvement and operate by rule of law yeah that's what we do together and it makes our society better and the lawyers must should be involved you've been involved and I think that's great I think every lawyer should be involved just that way whether it's part of this practice or not we got to go now we're out of time let's retire judge Evelyn Lance we've done some wonderful things thank you so much for coming out thank you so much Jay for having me