 the recording, I hope. Yeah, definitely. There will be two files, one with both of our video and one with just my video and the local recording. I will send both to you. Thank you very much. Thank you. And I wonder, before we do the talking points, I wonder whether you have any questions for me. Maybe you wanted to know why we are doing this and the audience and how do we navigate the next 30 plus minutes? I did ask about the audience. And I understand you can't review anything specific about your students, but maybe you can paint a general picture of who is in the audience. And hi, everybody in the audience. Well, they are sleeping at the moment, because most of my audience are at least in America, in the East and the West Coast. And I have about 30, 35 students. And this is the spring term that we're teaching about the concept of European society and the mistrust of the government. So we use the pandemic, the COVID-19 as a context. So all of them are second semester junior. Some of them are sophomore. So they're all American. Some of them are from mainland China. I think there are two of them. And two of them are Chinese-American who are in San Francisco. And they are of various majors. So they're not really one major because the combination of humanities, science, and marketing, so various of major. But they have one common thing which they really wanted to learn more about Europe and how governments in times of pandemic gained the trust or lost the trust of the citizen. So I thought that this is really something that I wanted to pick your brain if I may. It's just to have your input on it. Could I ask you a question? Yeah, of course. And so, of course, Taiwan is not a European government, not yet. We have not yet joined the European Union. No. So I guess this is a... It's a bit of a far front road. I know, I know. So it's a case study, but it's not a European context, right? I would not make specific commentaries on Europe. And the reason why I bring you in the picture is too far because I have seen an interview that you have done with another news media. So some of my students, let me just give you this context. Our main campus in Boston. And so we have probably 50% of transgender students who are actually into politics. They're not conservative per se, but they're quite progressive. So many of them are basically not Trump-supported. So I thought that is quite interesting to... Once I actually look at your video... Okay. And I thought, wow, I wanted to inspire some of my students who are in the process of transitioning, but also wanted to do public goods in terms of collective goods, which is very non-American because many of them think of themself rather than a collective group. So I want you as a first digital minister in Taiwan, which is really a rising country, which has so much to show the world how Asian perspective can work in various aspects. So I thought, well, it would be interesting for you to share your input. So I wanted to just bring you in the picture and do the interview in two separate sections. One is really look at your work in Taiwan Cabinet and how you look at trust and mistrust in a very dynamic way. That's your expert. And second, I wonder whether you feel comfortable talking about your perspective about transitioning as transgender role in the collective sense in Taiwan, particularly. And so that if students are a little bit understanding, oh, this is how one of the Asian countries think of in a progressive way, how transgender and transitioning is being perceived. Does that make sense? Sure, certainly. Again, I can only comment on my personal experience. I can't really make generalizing like this is how Asian country work. Because in this particular regard in particular, I don't think Taiwan is particularly the Asian. And I mean, I hope of course that the other Asian countries will join us, but seeing that how Taiwan is the first to legalize marriage equality, seeing how gender mainstreaming has been the accepted norm indeed institution-wise for the past 14 years or so, I can't really in good conscience say, Asian countries are all like that. Right, of course. Because my understanding, and I could be wrong on that, said 2019 in May, if I'm not mistaken, that is really the first time that in Taiwan same-sex marriage has been recognized. In the context of, I wouldn't say America, but I live in Amsterdam. I've been in Dutch for 20 years. So I would imagine that from where I stand, Taiwan is a bit latecomer if I may. I know, I know. So the first in Asia doesn't say much when you're in a global context. It's the point I want to make. Good, good, good. Thank you, thank you. Shall we start with the introduction? Because normally if I were doing the recording, I would first of all introduce my students that here is Audrey Tan of Tang. Sure, of course. And she is the first digital minister since 2000. I think 2015 or 16, 16 exactly. So Audrey, if I may, we start the conversation. Thank you for your time one more time. Audrey, would you mind telling our viewers briefly what you do as your role of the minister in Taiwan cabinet, if I may? Sure. So hello, everyone. Good luck, good time. I'm Audrey Tan, Taiwan's digital minister. I'm in charge of open government, of social innovation, and also of youth engagement. My work, broadly speaking, is working with everyone in order to solve structural issues, for example, overcoming the pandemic, but with no lockdown, overcoming the infodemic, with no takedown. That is to say, instead of anything that's top down, shutdown, lockdown, takedown, we make sure that people across all the different sectors can invent new ideas. For example, building a wear a mask as something that protects one's own face against one's own unwashed heart. And then amplifying this with creative means, with humor over rumor, and making sure that everybody can, with their participation, call it every number, like one, two, two, and say whatever it comes to their mind, get the explanation in the here and now, and then make suggestions, concrete suggestion that gets translated into policy in a very short timeframe. So in short, I would say, we're working on democracy itself as a form of social technology. Wow, this is quite amazing because I would imagine that just to give the context to our students that you have the first female president, if I may, Tai Ing-wen, which is really quite fresh air in Taiwan in the political history of development. I'm gonna ask you if I may, in the past couple of years, what is your view on the biggest challenge in order to fulfill the role that you have been and trust if I may? Globally, of course, the infodemic and pandemic are the twin demics that threatens the demos, right? The democracy. In particular, many jurisdictions saw a pandemic as something, as a kind of excuse to encroach on the civil liberties, to further do authoritarian control, to surveil, to collect personal data that was previously not collected by the states and so on. And so they justify it, of course, saying that we need to make this trade off between civil liberties on one side and pandemic management on the other side. But Taiwan is sort of a vindication of democracy in showing that actually having complete freedom of the press, assembly, and so on actually prevented the pandemic from going wild in Taiwan in the first place because everyone can contribute normal ways to counter it together to, for example, reach three quarters of population in just a couple of months to build a mask-wearing habits and get everybody access to PPEs and such. So this is the basic analysis of the pandemic and the same goes for infodemic. There's many jurisdictions that told the news sector, the journalist saying, your work is polarizing and so the state must censor you or to force you to publish retractions or things like that. Again, as a kind of justification because of the antisocial corner of social media, some states starts to expanse its reach in a effort of quote unquote harmonization, right, of the civil society discourse against Taiwan did not instill any administrative takedown and we rely on cross-checking on digital competence not digital literacy, competence classes and democratic participation and like YouTubers filming the counting process of the presidential voting itself and so on to foster a situation where actually the clarification spreads faster than the rumors. Again, this is a very heavy structural problem but tackled in a way that's cross-checkedown. Audrey, if I may just share with you for our American students, censorship is a taboo if I may because they really believe in threefold of information whether it is supportive or positioning to the government viewpoint. So they realize that in your context where you are in Taiwan, if I may, for our viewer who do not know the context well enough, in the past year when we had the global pandemic, I personally realized that there's a lot of misinformation and disinformation regardless on both ends. How do you balance in one way to protect the public good of correcting information which is threefold online whereas not crossing the boundary of censorship and restrictions of freedom of speech? How do you balance it in your role if that makes sense to you? Yeah, and it's not a balance between the states and the companies that run the social media in Taiwan because in Taiwan, the leading public forums include the social sector. And this is a, I guess, rather novel approach in working on this, what we call the social sector-first approach. For example, Dr. Lee will announce a message, the original whistleblower from Wuhan that says, quote, there are seven new SARS cases in the Huanan seafood market and a quote gets probably pasted on Reddit or for Chen or whatever other social media forums, but only in Taiwan's PTT, the equivalent of Reddit did it actually get the attention and the triage required so that within 24 hours on the first day of January, 2020, we start health inspections for all five passengers coming in from Wuhan thanks to the social sector contributions. And part of the reason is that the PTT doesn't have any shareholders. It doesn't have any advertisers. It's entirely subsidized by the budget of the National Taiwan University, part of our academic network. But the governance is open source. It's only governed by the people who participate and it's been like that for 25 years. That is to say, we have a digital public infrastructure that's run by the social sector so that people understand that it doesn't really pay on PTT to try to polarize people's opinion to do micro-targeting for advertisements because all these structures in the private sector are simply not there when you have something that's run by the social sector. And so this configuration, I think, is also important in the US now, in the current US context because US as I understand right now is having a conversation around redefining the word infrastructure. So that's during the building back beta, digital is also part of the infrastructure including the broadband as human right and the public spaces in the digital world and so on that I just mentioned, which we had this discussion like five years ago in Taiwan when we're doing the infrastructure bill, a spatial act, we did include the digital equivalent into the infrastructure definition. Audrey, I wanted to zoom in into looking at just specific how Taiwan deal with COVID-19, the pandemic as a whole because I think you are the country as pretty much an entity of the world, at least in your region, if I may. And so what I wanted to say was in the past one year, there is a dispute on trust of government about how government really rehandled COVID-19. Now, from where you are, Taiwan really has been doing quite well from day one, I would imagine. Yeah, we've been post-pandemic since May, 2020. And much more so about proactive rather than reactive if I may use that word. So the trust of the government, I mean, you really probably know more than I do as in, how do we generate that trust in the context of the pandemic? Meaning, do you want it to have the element of it? Like if I have to create a formula per se, that doing this from the government side, the public would create much more better trust. And what would that formula would be if I may? Sure, to give no trust is to get no trust. So the formula is very simple, is trusting the citizens, period. And in trusting the citizens, I mean, for example, making radical transparent like daily 2PM press conferences and agenda is set not only by the journalists who can ask to their house contents, but to a toll-free number 1922 where everyone can call. For example, last April, there was a young boy who called saying, you're rationing our mask, but all I get is pink medical mask. Now I'm a boy, all the boys in my class have navy blue medical grade masks. So I don't want to go to school because I don't want to get bullied, right? The very next day on the 2PM conference, all the medical offices, regardless of gender or pink medical mask and the Ministry of Health even said the pink panther was his childhood hero. And suddenly the pink become the most hip color and the boy was the most hip boy because only he has a color that heroes and heroes here are well, right? So the point here is that by trusting the citizens to come up with reports on novel situations as well as novel solutions, there was a professor Lai who called saying, I've invented a way to sterilize to kill the virus from the mask without destroying the mask using traditional rice cookers. If you don't add water, then it actually serves as a sterilizer. And that actually got repeated experiments by the Ministry of Health and then the administrator Chen actually demonstrated that rice cooker writes in the 2PM press conference inviting professor Lai to explain the theory behind it. And so the point here is that if you can show that citizens' ideas are respected and to listen to scale and even if there's any mistakes and so on, you apologize swiftly, but always say by next Thursday we'll fix it, by tomorrow we'll fix it and then you did actually fix it. So it shows both empathy and competence. But first of all, it's still trusting the citizens to come up with these ideas in the first place. It has a transparency element there too, I suppose, right? You know, which means the government. So it's transparency, participation and accountability. I said that because where I am, you know, being a Dutch citizen for 20 years, I also understood a little bit about how Dutch actually approach public policy. I think that trust is also quite something that they really notice that it's not so much about not trusting the government, but it's the other way round. It's trusting the citizens. It's earning trustworthiness, right? By trusting the citizens. Absolutely. But I don't want to paint the whole picture all roses and blue sky. I mean, there must be some resistance, you know, to certain approach that your work or the government approaches. Can you help us a little bit about what is the resistance among the general public about that trust? And do we have a public enemy in the government, you know, in per se, in the realistic society? You mean other than the virus? For now, yes. For now, I think that's our biggest enemy. Common enemy, if I may. I know. So to answer your question, in a sense, we are the resistance in this region, right? Because as I said, there's this tendency of democracy in decline in the authoritarian model try to justify themselves as inevitable when faced with novel threats like the pandemic. And so we are in the sense, the resistance. And within Taiwan, there are also people who question or criticize the work we do. For example, our digital quarantine system, which reuses the location-based earthquake warning SMS system. Basically, if you return to Taiwan, you're asked to quarantine at your residence or at a hotel. But either way, you're paid around 100 euros per day for your work as a stipend for 14 days. And if you keep this 14 days, then of course, you're free. You can go anywhere. However, if you break out of the quarantine, you get fined up to 100 times that. So it's quite a lot of money. And how, if you're in your own residence, how are we going to know that you've broken out from the quarantine? Well, it turns out that we can reuse the same location-based triangulation so that telecom towers, the three towers closest to you, can triangulate, roughly speaking, which block your end. So within about a 15-meter radius. And so we use the same technology that sends flight evacuation warnings and so on, so that if your phone breaks out of that radius, it sends a message first to you, then to your local health officers. And if they found that you're missing, then also to the police officer and so on. Now, some people questioned this saying, how are we supposed to know that this is not processed by a third party? How do we know this would not be turned into precision advertisement? How do we know that this information would not be sold to other people and so on? And so, but it turns out that because we had not declared a state of emergency, everything we do must be subject to the parliamentary oversight. So the idea is that overseeing body or legislature run this public hearing and so on, who interpolated the ministers and department bureau chiefs in charge of building this digital quarantine system. And after explaining the exactly very transparently how this works and understanding the telecoms already know where you are anyway, right? But they're not sending this information outside of any telecom. The approval rates to the measure grows from 91% to 94%. So, but we still think the 6% who did not agree because they keep us honest and accountable. And that sounds to me that go back to that trust. With that information, the citizens who are under quarantine, we know that we are not abusing information. Right, right. It's applied with equity. Absolutely. I think that that really go back to transparency, respect and also that trust. Had I not been trusting the government, I would think this is a scheme of big brothers. How would I know you won't do the information? So I think that won't work in some American conservative base, if I may. I know enough to say I live in America for quite a number of years. So I thought that that would be a lot of resistance about because so many so I've seen so many European country and American citizens went out to really just disagree government policy, asking them to stay at home. They kind of like say that we had enough. We don't trust the government. We would like to have our freedom even in times of COVID-19. So we need to go back to that trust again. It's very interesting for me. Before I move on to the second half, I have one question I wanted to pick your brain. Now you have a wonderful female president since 2016, Tsai Ing-wen, who was educated in England, London School of Economics. Did you think that your role being invited to join the government has something to do with the reservation that hold by her looking at, how should I look at Taiwan moving forward since I became president in 2016? What would you say about that, her role and your role or bringing you into the minister? Yeah, I will first say that in Taiwan, our parliament is over 40% women. And so it's not bad. Certainly not by Asian standard, but also by world standards, second only to some Scandinavian countries, right? So I think already gender mainstreaming has been the norm in the Taiwanese legislature in many part of the society and so on. Now, I'm not pretending as all roses, for example, in STEM graduates. There's still only like slightly over one quarter women. So we still need to do some work there and we're still working on that. But by and large, I think gender mainstreaming has won in Taiwan. I think Dr. Tsai's contribution is first, of course, symbolically representing that women leadership not just previously as vice president, but now as president would work really well, but also by making sure that people in all the different levels see it's not just about gender, but also about culture. For example, she also has a indigenous name. I think she is one eighth Taiwan, so indigenous culture. So during the transitioning justice work for indigenous people, she also speaks with a transcultural view on things and so on. And she also helped signing the act that makes all the 20 languages into Taiwanese national languages, including 16 or so indigenous ones, the Taiwanese Holog and Hakka, and also Taiwanese sign language, so for maximal inclusion and so on. So I think she wants to convey and rather successfully a intergenerational transcultural view on democracy by showing that democracy could be indeed a conversation between diverse cultural values, not just a position between two ideological values. I think you make a very good point and if I may say Audrey, because you point out to me that more than just about gender, it has to be about culture. So now with that, I wanted to kickstart with the second half, really just ask you very personally to share your own experience because my understanding, and I could be wrong on that, I think you were transitioning in 2015, if I may. No, 2005. And so with your own experience, if I may, and how do you see gender equality and this gender transitioning process, I'm more interested about the acceptance in the context of Taiwan society. Well, it's definitely quite high, as you can see. Share with us, share with us, yeah, sure. Yeah, I think in Taiwan, when I was having my second purity in 2005, there's already quite a few high-profile cases of transitioning, so much so that people already understand what they'd like to have the second puberty. Of course, there's some curiosity and such, but I never felt discriminated against. So in a sense, the society itself is quite transparently. Now, systemically, of course, at that time is still before marriage equality. And so the, for example, legal protection status of marriage equality was still at a kind of municipal record and a civil union level, the level where I think Japan is at nowadays. So of course, still much work to be done, but it turns out this is not about gender, but rather about the idea of marriage, because in Taiwan, like in many Asian societies, marriage is not individual to individual only thing. It's also a family to family thing. And indeed, before 2007, the families and family wedding in Taiwan is recognized as social ceremony and marriage is considered legal after the marriage to family wedding happens even before they register at the Office for Household Registration. And so the people who are resistant to marriage equality mostly worry about the traditional lineages of family to family relationships will get hurt, harmed by the marriage equality. Of course, after 2008, Taiwan switched to a registration analyst system where marriage indeed is just a matter of one individual to another individual. It's like a registration, but not at all ceremony, right? You don't have to throw a ceremony. And even if you have a ceremony, that carries no legal weight. But for people who were married before 2007, they don't necessarily know this, right? So after the two referenda and the constitutional court ruling, the public service in Taiwan innovated and introduced this idea of what I call in or marriage between the bylaws without the in-laws. Right. There's no father-in-law or mother-in-law relationship and Mandarin speaking. We don't have to invent things like Rishi or Nishi or whatever. Because the two families don't wed when two same-sex individuals wed. But when the individuals wed, they enjoy exactly the same actual slightly better rights compared to their heterosexual couple counterparts. And so that's actually a very good, it's not a compromise because both generations win, in a sense. They both get to keep the value they value the most. And their shared value, which is the marriage institution itself, gets strengthened rather than taken away. So this is just one example, but it shows the general attitude to gender transformation in Taiwan, which is always about co-creating something new rather than making 45 or 49% of people suffer. I do have a very sensitive question because when I live in America, I've seen quite a number of cases of struggling kids. They're very young, they might be five or six years old who were exploring their true identity, if I may. I don't want to use gender, per se, but because they were really exploring identity. And there are sad cases about parents not knowing what to do and how to react, even though they're lovely and wanted to be supportive. But this is very unknown territory for many people, if I may. So for those who are out there struggling and not sure, regardless of how young and how old they are, because we have also elderly people who've gone through marriage and kids and still wanted to go back to transitioning. Yeah, so from your own perspective, what would you like to tell them to give them some kind of support or empathy, if I may, because I said that because I've seen friends who are in the 50s struggling. I've seen little kids, five, six years old in America struggling and parents and friends do not know what to do about it. In your perspective, it seems that you have a lot of support in the social context or also I would imagine Yeah, definitely, definitely. So what would you tell these people who are stretching their head and exploring the identity whereas not knowing what to do? Well, when I had the second puberty, I also struggled because I don't know, puberty is always a struggling time. Regardless of gender, I would imagine. Regardless of gender, I mean, the families are sure you suffer where your brain is trying to rewire itself, right? Sure, sure. So even cisgender puberties are also quite a struggle. And I struggled for a couple of years, just my brain rewiring itself, right? So I think we need to recognize this in what it is. Whether you call this transgender transitioning or whether it's cisgender, just having a puberty. This is something that people are exploring unknown territory. Indeed, they become something that's not just what they had experienced before, but a horde of new experiences that previously their minds did not even imagine that they can experience such things, right? So all this is of course very confusing. And I think two things always helped, certainly personally helped me. First is a community. So I get to know through the internet, many people who have transitioned before, who had similar second puberties, who had similar experiences. I helped translating a young adults novel about this particular issue. And so called Luna, I think that's the novel that I helped translate. And so all this helped tremendously because I feel not alone. So that's the first thing. And the second thing also equally important is transitioning exploration. It's not about conforming to some other stereotype. And so just like growing up, becoming adult is about expressing yourself, actualizing yourself in relation with the society. It's not about conforming to how an adult should behave in a very strict way, right? It's about creation, not just about conformance. And so instead of asking your friends or family who are transitioning to conform to a certain gender stereotype, remind them that this is about exploration and they can actually define what does it mean for them as part of the transitioning to self-define, to self-express. So having some creative outlets, it could be about writing poems, singing, paintings, whatever, that also helps a lot. I think Audrey, you make a very good point. I read somewhere, and I could be wrong that you would like to have non-binary and post-gender. And I don't know whether I read it correctly. Post-gender, exactly. So could you share with us? Please hand me a pronoun. My pronoun is literally whatever. I also have students who are gender fluids. They really want to do not to be identified by he, she. So I'm fantasizing in moving fast forward to the future if I may. Do you see a date that when, particularly your country or any country who would say when the child was born, they don't have to identify the gender? Would you see that coming in? Would you see that that is something that you would embrace, if I may? Yeah, I think one of the main developments recently has been the invention of the ex-gender, right? So previously, it's reserved in some jurisdiction to intersex people who, of course, have a biological rationale to use the ex-gender. However, nowadays, it's also being expanded. So as you mentioned, gender fluid people, gender queer people, non-binary people, post-gender people are now more and more offered the choice, right? So I mentioned the quarantine. So in Taiwan, when you go into Taiwan and file the quarantine cards, you can choose your gender as a man, a woman, or something else. So I think that is gradually become the norm. And so as you were asking, I was thinking about, did I file any forms that force a binary gender army recently? And I can't think of any. So it seems that, at least in everyday life, we're now probably already living in a more or less post-gender life. And I think this is quite liberating, even for people who identify with only one gender as cisgender. Because that also means that if they want to act outside of the stereotype a little bit, they would not be forced pushed back in. Because the entire country, just as when Minister Chen Shizhong and his colleagues start wearing pink masks, right? We become not really a woman thing anymore. Because the entire country was celebrating how pink masks can protect against the coronavirus and so on. So anyone can join and everyone can help the society to be a little bit more transgender, a little bit non-binary. I think that is the vision. And I'm not saying that we should radically do something overnight. But bit by bit, I think we are changing for the better. But there is still, if I may, I have two friends who are expecting babies. But there is still some cultural conformity that parents naturally would just go to, as you mentioned, about the pink color. They were still friends of mine. They were still thinking about using pink to pink. The baby's room should they expect a girl, whereas blue for the boys. Yeah, sure. There are still those cultural conformity there somewhere, isn't it? Yeah, so I have a friend in Iceland who run this chain of kindergartens. And they specifically taught all the young girls going to the kindergarten, the sports, the athletes, repairing machinery, and so on. And in the same kindergarten, they specifically taught young boys how to cook, how to care for one another, how to help raise babies or puppies, and so on. And so basically the idea is that the parents naturally out of social conformity or habits teach the gender, cisgender parts in their home, right? So by the time they go to the kindergarten, this kindergarten fulfills the other half so that any young child end up becoming like bilingual and by dexterous, right? They become versed in all the classically, stereotypically male and classically female work, and they grow up to be much more holistic people because they can relate to each other no matter what their gender are. And I don't think most of their children grow up being transgender, but they grow up to be better people. I hear you. I like the word that you're using, which we use it a lot also over this point, the holistic part of it. I wanted to slowly gradually go to the end of the conversation because I know I'm holding you captive as well. But I know that you were a successful programmer, right, software programmer to begin with. And you were very young I think back then when you really noticed that you have this talent of it. You know what I'm saying? Exactly, now that you're a digital minister and I know I could be wrong on that, I read somewhere that you also, you have lived in Germany if I may. Yeah, for a year when I was 11, yeah. 11, exactly. So you were exposed to German culture. I lived in Germany, I studied in Germany as well. I mean, I think you also speak French, I would imagine. Not really, because I was in... I don't believe everything I read, OK? I was in Zachlan, so for a year I did learn some French. But nowadays I don't practice it much anymore, so I wouldn't say that I speak French. Je n'ai pas de lait franc-français. So I would imagine because I also study in Germany. So there is this lightness of that German culture. But my point of departure is that now you are doing what you're doing. What do you see five years from now that you're trajectory, that you must have a great plan for yourself? Meaning that I would imagine that in a couple of years you want to move on to something more that's your cause, if I may. Could you share with us your plan the next five years or ten? Well, in ten years we'll meet the global goals. So in five years we'll meet some of the global goals. And the trajectory in general in Taiwan, we just had an earthquake last night. So this is fresh of my mind. So between the Eurasian Plate on one side and the Philippine Sea Plate on the other, Taiwan, the top of Taiwan, the Saviak, or Pendogneung, or the Yushan, grows two and a half centimeters every year. So in five years it will grow, we will collectively grow around 12 or so centimeters. And so that's the trajectory. It's toward the sky. And I use this as a geological metaphor. What we will do as a society caught between the various different ideological camps, we will prove just like this marriage innovation that marriages the individual but not their families. We will continue to co-create social technologies and improve the bitrate of democracy. Currently in many parts of the world people hear about democracy and they think of just uploading three bits per person every four years just voting, which is a good start. But nowadays we have much better technology and everyone should expect democracy to also leverage the latest in digital technology in collecting the ideas in brainstorming, in coming up with new innovation without waiting for four years. And I think this is also where many democratic jurisdictions are working toward. And so my job description basically shows how I want to move in where I'm moving. So maybe I'll just conclude by reading my job description that I wrote in 2016, goes like this. When we see the internet of things, let's make it an internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let's make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let's make it collaborative learning. When we see user experience, let's make it about human experience. And whenever we hear that the singularity is near, let us always remember the plurality is here. That's wonderful to end the conversation. Audrey, thank you. So before we end the conversation and we'll edit that when you share with me the recording, I want to ask you one personal question about the threat of China. Because I mean, this is something that I, my students would blame me for not asking. I mean, they read so much about this eternal struggle between mainland China and Taiwan as independent states. And I have a lot of friends who live in Taiwan who think this is... No, really, it's not. Just a few decades back, yes. Exactly. For them, it's like ultimate, for them meaning mainland Chinese, I would imagine, particularly for the party, you know, they would really look at, this is something that we have to solve in our lifetime. Do you think in general in Taiwan, people are worried, concerned, conscious about what the future might lie for them, or for the next generation? What are you... Yeah, it's, of course, people understand the geopolitical situation. There's really no ambiguity about it. On the other hand, we also understand that democracy itself is not just defense, but also our main value, right? By being a demonstration-oriented, action-oriented, civil society-oriented policy, it means that all the other jurisdictions can look to Taiwan and see that because of our democratic polity, we are able to innovate more, innovate faster in tackling any upcoming emergent issues concerning humanity. And this is the capture in the slogan, Taiwan can help. And if everyone in the world understand Taiwan can help, and Taiwan is helping, then, of course, people would not stand by and see Taiwan being turned into an authoritarian or even totalitarian policy due to external forces. And so, I think recently, the Indo-Pacific democratic polities, as well as the US, of course, have made this point quite clear, actually much more clear than any point in the past five decades. And so, I think we're cautiously optimistic. Good, yes, because you just had a visit from the Americans coming to the government just last week. Thank you, Audrey. This has been such an inspirational conversation for me and for my student. I mean, I'm really from the bottom of my heart. It brought me great pressure to talk to you. Thank you, Audrey. Thank you. Thank you. Live long and prosper. Thank you, everyone. Bye-bye.