 Hello everyone, this is Ross at teacher talk at the most influential blog on education in the UK today I am delighted to be joined by Ben Brown Ben a former deputy head teacher We're gonna unpick his history and find a little bit more about him But he's also the founder and director of a great little network called Ed roundtables Ben. How are you? No, it's lovely to talk to you know We're gonna go deep here as we said just offline before we press record and so we're gonna unpick Toxic school culture your own life as a teacher What Ed roundtables is and we'll see where we end up along the way But and can we start off with a little kind of synopsis of you? Your your let's start with just your teaching experience first of all, okay, so I guess my teaching experience I've got 17 years of primary teaching under my belt. Yeah, try to remember when I qualified now. God. It's that long ago 2001 ish 2002 that card it's been that long ago. I can't remember I Started out was I started out doing supply routes every year I knew on the course was all frantically applying for jobs and I didn't want to that was a mature student So it was sort of okay. I've I want to find a place that I want to work Yeah, that's way of doing that. I thought was to go on supply hone my skills Actually check out a lot of the schools see what they were like As a I don't know if he's true But as a man, I tended to end up doing supply in difficult year six classes particularly on Fridays So that was That was a lot maybe that maybe that's when they plan They're a kind of layer putt PPA for the week ahead wasn't it and you had to do the cover a year six Friday afternoon Well, you're better teacher on a Monday morning or a Friday afternoon not of interest Probably Tuesday, I'll be honest Tuesday's okay Tuesday was all right by Tuesday Monday It was sort of like right it's gonna work and you you going with good intentions But some I think it's it's the shock after the weekend isn't it? I believe and Hagerty maths Craig Who does the Hagerty maths? He? No, it's Paul. Paul Hagerty Craig 80. I forgot his name. That's bad He His website all the collections of math summer across the country apparently Tuesday's the most popular day to hand in homework I suspect because teachers forget or kids forget to do it and Remind you on Monday and perform better on Tuesday Right, okay. Let's let gives a synopsis. What's Ed round tables and we'll come back to both these topics as we go through Ed round tables is I find it hard to put into words. It's essentially a tribe of headteachers Who are there to support each other it's it's like professional development through conversation so peer discussion right nice So there's lots of sharing Lots of opening being vulnerable. So if you if the idea is create a safe space So it's a bit like the Vegas of education. I guess what right there stays there Okay, I like it. I like that might have to join Right, so I'm gonna unpick the why and and and the mechanics of how it came to be in and actually what happens in that network Before I do one. I'm just gonna apologize to Colin Colin Hagerty. I've just double checked My apologies for the great bit of software But Ben can I rewind you back to your 16 year old self and could you tell me what you were like as a kid at school? Please I was actually generally well behaved You need to try and keep my head down. I've had a bit of mutual time in school, right generally is quite a loose term, isn't it? Yeah, I did get involved in a few things I probably shouldn't have done but right away with it. Okay, let's not go there Okay, never never appeared on my yeah reports or anything like that Any memories of a teacher and why at that time for secondary school. Yeah, I had a really good Form tutor actually she was bonkers Miss stashko Bonkers in a good way. Yeah. Yeah, Ukrainian Via Toggedon Right, okay, and where where did you where'd you go to school? Area I was in Southeast London. Okay, that's why I was I was born and born and bred Up to I was about 18 and then left for uni, right and what what happened next after kind of Where was university? I've been to university a few times, right? Started off at York uni doing archaeology. Yeah, that did that for a year and realized I hated the academic Side of it right to be out doing the dig in and the physical stuff and exploring I think I wanted to be Indiana Jones still was the problem Hey, I'm the lectures tends to be in those dark rooms where they turn lights and slides have come on I'm right five minutes. I was asleep. Yeah, I think I think I would be too And so where did the where did the teacher conversation happen? So I dropped out of uni did various things for a few years including Stuff. Oh, yeah construction retail odd jobs, right real wide-knit. Okay Ended up at uni again learning quantity surveying But they weren't paying me enough for the job for me to carry on doing it I asked for a wage rise. They said they couldn't do it. So I said, right. I'm off going back to uni then So finally went back to uni. What was I 20? 20 something did geography and PE Came out of that was looking around for stuff, but I was too old for most of the You know the apprenticeships and the postgraduate stuff. They all wanted somebody who was 20 21 who was willing to travel anywhere I've met my wife by that point and okay. She wasn't my wife But you know Ron yeah on that road and wasn't prepared to move around so couldn't get anywhere Was helping a friend's son out with maths so that was all right at doing that So they said why don't you be a teacher? So I've come to nothing else Right, I'll give it a go see what see what that's like and so 17 years later Where was your where was your kind of teaching experiences? Across it's broad range mostly in York and the vicinity of York Okay, all primary schools in York All primary schools in York or the vicinity of yeah and and did the deputy head position happen accidentally or was that a kind of Calculated and aspirational type move and I Initially didn't want to do any senior leadership because I had a young family I'm just thought I don't want to give up the time I want to be able to turn around and say do you know what's half three my daughter's playing the football match My son's doing something. I'm off Every now and again, which I didn't feel I could do as SLT I think that's changed actually now in terms of workload and people expect from staff so not initially I Sort of the head The deputy head left And I'd sort of been there school for six years. Yeah, and it was sort of my kids left home or at uni now So it was like probably now's the right time to start thinking more seriously about a career rather than doing what I was And did you did you enjoy school leadership? Despite his challenges, yeah, some of it. Yes, some of it. No, I think being a deputy head you're in a really interesting spot with You don't have overall say on everything so you've got to support the head and deliver deliver what the heads vision is Regardless of when you always agree with things and I think sometimes that that can be Challenging if you're in the wrong school, which is where I think I was and also because I was still teaching So it's getting the balance of those roles right the fact that you're collaborating with teachers But you've also got responsibility and expectations over and above that as well So I think it can be so could I just for a kind of historical chronological timelines? Well, what I'm just going pop to your website in 2017 you're right after 16 years of teaching you kind of started to do Education round tables to suppose if you can forgive me, I'm going to read this second paragraph Which resonates with many teachers including myself? So here it is listeners the long hours the stack of marking the demands of preparing children to pass tests Achieve standards tracking data planning outstanding generational lessons Differentiating for the least and most able managing behavior Communicating with parents jumping through government hoops and all the many other jobs that teaching involves took their toll As it does for many I felt broken could we unpick that a little bit? So we know that teaching is tough and there's a millions of things to do But what I guess that was a bit of a crisis moment for you or a light bulb or a kind of found work-life balance family thing Yeah, I was teaching and teaching deputy and it got to the point where I was doing 90-hour weeks Yeah, I didn't feel I was didn't feel I was doing either job as well as I could But yeah other than throwing more hours at it. I didn't know How to do I think you're better. Does that make sense? See I was yeah, no I was there myself, you know, I was doing 60 to 80 hours as a deputy in Westminster and My blog was already a full-time job then that was doing part-time after school hours And I've been 100 plus hour weeks. So one I was failing as a father as a husband Being a I want to be blogger or whatever else as a hobby and my deputy Job and my teaching Which I loved I started to drop balls and not feel That I was doing as good as I wanted to know I guess I also start to realize that I didn't want to be a head teacher So so did the ed round table start at that point or was it already kind of lurking away for a few years? No, it didn't I mean I crashed out. I didn't have a job to go to Yeah, I couldn't I couldn't even leave the house for about six months. So I was actually completely right So a real low moment and completely destroyed here So I guess you know 2017 the dialogue of teacher mental health was still quite new I think around that time wasn't it was it was there, but I think the resources and support Was quite hard to find I I believe what's your perspective looking back? There was talk about workload But that was about it that Yeah I'd really sort of come across in terms of well-being and mental health When there were things done like cakes in the staff room and and that sort of stuff, but yes So cake no not culture what rise its culture first cake seconds Yeah, it just may be fat more than anything So obviously you took six months out to you know look after yourself and stuff which is important And I'm sure there will be lots of challenges with that, you know employment as for one and your your kind of physical recovery So that question on Ed Brown tables when did that start? okay, so It was an idea that I'd had from Watching I'd seen various bits and pieces and reading stuff And it was sort of like well if I had a network where I've been able to speak to somebody and perhaps I would have had The answers are needed about various things because I think a lot of our time is spent reinventing stuff. Yes, or Learning how to do stuff differently Yeah I'm not saying there are any shortcuts because every school context is different So sometimes what works in one school doesn't work in another but at least having the discussion Might have made a difference to me. Yeah, that idea was always always there It wasn't really edge round tables at that point. It was just sort of that we've got the app We should be talking more. How can we make this happen? Well, I was doing that I was learning to be a salesman Okay selling selling what selling anything all sorts of stuff Most of it was with stuff like web marketing and right that sort of stuff I was doing it for various American companies and And one of the people that I was selling stuff for I wasn't very good salesman because I didn't care about what I was selling I was gonna ask you next to sell me something on your table, but I will come to that later Yeah, right. Okay, and Now We also connected some time ago about toxic school culture and stuff Give me give me your thoughts on or at least maybe some experiences you've had on on that particular topic and I think talks talk schools can be toxic for different reasons They could be toxic because of the leadership who have no consideration for people underneath or anything else and just To hate to use the word but potentially narcissistic in terms of it's it's all about them Yeah schools can also be toxic because You don't fit in with the culture. You're it's not it's it's the mixture between you and your values and everything else isn't right Lots there are lots of different schools out There's lots of different values that people have when they go into and reasons for going into into school Leadership and developing the culture and sometimes it's just that You don't fit in with that culture and I don't think it's necessarily the cultures wrong Because it is working for those people who are there who turn out to be Actually, I really like working here. There's nothing nothing toxic. I think they can be that that mismatch and Sometimes there it's the culture itself hasn't evolved fully There's a great book that I read a while ago You got it your hand I have yeah constantly going through it, which is okay this one which is quite interesting So for people listening on the podcast Tell us what it is and who it's by okay. It's a book called tribal leadership Which is by Dave Logan, John King and Haley Fisher, right now. It's based on American businesses, but the concept of it is that there are natural Groups within organizations and your organization is a whole and can be formed by a group and the idea that there's five Sort of tribal stages that you go through and the idea is that actually if you can work together You can elevate them up So it's stage one is is like your gang culture everyone's just a self the only reason they're together is to fight Against an unfair world, you know, it's it's often violent life sucks It's horrendous The next stage to is when people focus on themselves and say well my life sucks and it's all about it's all about them So, you know, you try and change anything and people look at you like what are you mad? That's gonna be too much hard work for me. What why don't I want to do that? So you get that very self-centered Approach and if everyone's like that then nothing really happens. You're all fighting each other The stage three then is the idea and this is where a lot of people are is is the I'm great I'm really good at what I do and there's actually competition between people So everyone's trying to be the best leader the best teacher the best Whatever it is which can be quite good because you know healthy competition does mean we strive to improve But at the same time it leads a bit of backbiting undermining undercutting each other But I also think it leads to that and the current of mental health pressure that oh Ross looks amazing and Ben needs to pull He sucks up and You know Teaching awards might be listened to this, but I've been a teaching award For and I've won one in the past, but I often when I'm sitting there on the judging panel I think am I rewarded in the person for their brilliance or am I really Highlighting somebody because they've clearly put in an extortion an extra number of hours behind the scenes to achieve this extra special of greatness and am I inadvertently promoting this as a way of getting a teaching award and And that's it's a tough one that so I often now as a judge really look carefully at Trying to celebrate people that might just do it as part of their job Not necessarily putting in thousands of hours. It is and I think that's part of the problem is that's the culture that was certainly encouraged by Michael Wilshaw Michael gove and those kinds of people it was it was all this is competition You know this is this is what we should be doing. We should be banging in the hours Anyone who isn't buying into this should be You know on their way cast aside I think that was certainly the situation in in the last school I was at it felt like that at times There was a lot of a lot of well, they're better. They're better. She tried you as the deputy head You should be setting the best example doing everything perfectly, which is the one that so I Want to move back to Ed Brown tables for five years on and you know getting through the pandemic as a self-employed Business as well as not easy and we're talking about consultancy in a moment But I also suspect you now see lots you talk to lots of teachers and school leaders And you've learned quite a lot in the last five years and probably trying to avoid all those nasty bad things You've experienced or seen or read about and trying to promote the opposite and The question is and what kind of things are you doing with your network? Who's in it? You know range of people, you know locations that type of stuff Give us give us as much as you can so at the moment we're at about 40 schools ranging from Cornwall up to Cumbria We've got a mixture of schools So we've got some tiny tiny village schools with two or three two or three classrooms two or three teachers in it up to Schools, I think the biggest schools got 600 pupils So it's a really large Large range of context in all primary or you got any secondary or primary working on a secondary network But they're harder to Harder to get involved with stuff primary just seems to throw themselves into it secondary Little bit wary. I don't know if it's still there's an element of competition or well There's that and maybe it's a you know You've got a larger network around you as a secondary, you know I always had 250 staff around me every day and 2000 kids and Primary, you know, we're in Yorkshire now my son's in a one-form entry It's you know six seven class teachers a couple on the leadership team and Few support staff and the network is much smaller And so tell us about some of the stuff that they do when you when they come together in your round table The gender set by them. So it's actually one of the current challenges. So when we started out, which was March 2020 just before the pandemic hit, right? It was just starting I put a tweet out onto onto Twitter saying look I've had this idea the problem I'd had before no one had heard of zoom so I'd been contacting head teachers and I tried Physical ones didn't work because no one had any time. So I said, what about zoom? No one had heard of it Who's the pandemic kicked it? It was sort of like I've got this idea who wants to take part We'll talk about things The challenges you face and boy were there challenges over those certainly over first six six to six to eight months So people sort of leapt at the chance. So we had you know people like Chris Dyson at Parklands And Kersti Stubbs who was at Boothroyd at the time Lee Hill There's about 20 20 people all together They talked about everything that was going on and at the time we were typing up and releasing the report So the conversations were I was typing up and sending out. So we're talking about things like, you know Expectations for Home learning for example, how what are people doing? How do you manage it? Things like supporting parents and and and pupils who aren't so safeguarding all those sorts of things with part of the conversation But as we look at transition was it a big one I think when we released that we had over 4,000 downloads on them on the site And I know it was shared widely across email networks as well as a couple of people said, oh We've got this through the email which was absolutely brilliant. It meant it got a really wide Yeah viewing and transition at the time was a massive issue and so so From from bringing all these people together and talking about the issue to think of spot this on your website also We have the the system has its challenges, but it also has its own solutions and Give us some insights from the conversations that you are exposed to Not necessarily the challenges because we know them, but you know some of the good ideas some of the messages You're seeing and hearing time and time again most of the messages I I sit here and Arranged at making things simpler and easier for people and so it might be a conversation about I mean it might be Something as simple as what what are you doing for your yourself or your sip or whatever your STP? Which ever document it is that that you choose to be using how are you feeding that back to governors? For example, so that might be a typical Everyday conversation and people come up to whether she's a pro forum I use this works really well, and there's a lot about condensing and cutting out stuff It might be another conversation. We had recently actually Promotion somebody else Which is the people book study? Okay, nice. How so when new ideas are coming out how stuff like that being implemented in school What do you need to do beforehand? What's the impact? How are you prepping stuff for it? So there's a whole conversation for that one around actually We've done a lot on Rosenstein. We've done a lot on coaching so that teachers are really ready for this kind of Change because it is a big change and you've got a managed change as well But the idea behind it is always let's make things simpler easier. Let's have bigger impact for less work So on that note what what what great work load ideas have you seen? You know whether it's curriculum or assessment or any any Golden Nuggets Biggest biggest golden nugget it we it's weird, isn't it when you're not in a school anymore You're not quite sure what the impact of what people would choose to do is So I think maybe it may be and what what what people have shared in the group that you thought oh wow That's a great idea and a lot of it has been around things like One of my favorite ones is it's certainly around marking and how people Expected to mark and what the challenges are. I think that's quite universal now In terms of what people do it's actually let's cut out. Let's let's do you know whole class feedback Let's actually give all the feedback. We're working with specific groups while we're going around So let's not have to do the tick and flick tick and flick stuff Planning as well. It's like why what do I need to see? What do I need to see in those sorts of conversations as a head teacher? What's my expectation? Well, actually The planning is almost irrelevant if the if what's coming in the books is It's good if if when I go and do just general walking around the classroom I see something I can see what the practice is like and that seems to be the the general Attitude of a lot of the heads, you know, they do check they do look at books and they there is, you know Yeah, that part of life that's really good. It's that part of stuff as a leader to check because you do need to check You do Let's switch the conversation. So I'm at roundtables the website Ben for that is ed Education roundtables.co.uk for people listening. So we'll shout that out again in a moment There's a short for that as well, which is it edrt.co.uk redirects there. There you go. Fantastic, right? I want to talk about the small army of educators who support the profession behind the scenes which Sometimes Amanda Spielman and others call sometimes selling snake oil No, I think that perhaps references to people maybe monetize in the whole off-stead process But not the likes of you and I who are doing good stuff behind the scenes And there's a bit of a I don't know Consultancy gets a bit of a bad reputation at least on the education Twitter circuit here or there But it you and I both know it's not without its challenges and there's the moral purpose that drives us Yes, we need to make a pound to pay our bills, etc And the question you know without me going through all slots of interesting history the question I guess is What do you love about it? What do you find the hardest working for yourself in education? I I love it because I'm actually You feel as though you're making a difference. So I don't always feel as though I'm doing much I just try and connect people and Support people share ideas because I listen to what the people are saying. I make notes and record stuff Someone says something. It's like you need to check this out. Try this And and gathering lots and lots of ideas. I've got my own ideas as well But you try and sort of suggest to people and move move things forward. So I mean I Put together one one of the things I really loved actually I put together an event head teachers conference Which is only just this weekend gone Yeah, so it's all yeah, and it's all about all about building community. So it's actually Told the story of as a leader, you know Discover your why turning that into but what's your community? Why what's your community's purpose? How do you share that? What are your values? How do you communicate values not just to your staff? But also to the parents and the children. What is it that connects you because that's the thing That's that's the thing that puts bums on seats, isn't it? And that's what unfortunately that's what schools to a certain extent are about these bums on seats You do have to do a little bit of selling because Your your viability to school depends on the number of children you get through the doors But if you can communicate really well for me marketing really good communication and you can learn a hell of a lot from it We can communicate what we're trying to do Why we're trying to do it and the values we've got for that and then share the successes and everything else Then you can start to build build the community. So it's it's everything. So we had some great people speaking. So we had, you know Vic car happy. Yeah, she came down. She's great. She's she's amazing Adrian Bethune. Yes, Adrian and again was was was fantastic John McGee who did kindness coach He did some stuff on values Emma Kell Clem Stewart who were all good souls all good soul amazing people and it's telling that that whole story. So Doing that sort of stuff. I really really love It's hard on the other side It's hard on the other side is sometimes knowing How to price yourself does that make sense? I think that's one of the things they consulted because you're like I've got a mortgage I've got growing electricity bills. I've got all this stuff I've got to put food on the table and all that sort of thing, but at the same time It's got to be where you're offering amazing value. Yeah to people. So they it becomes a no-brainer It's not like a yeah for that. It's like a Yeah, I've got to afford that. Yeah, and now some of the questions I was gonna ask you know what what tool, you know I still feel like an NQT in this whole marketing business side of my consultancy life But you you also realize that teaching does teach you a lot of things that are maybe organic and not refined and I guess now Outside away from the busy classroom. You can refine these skills a bit more read and search and kind of connect with other people So the question again is and what what tools have been your lifesavers? What kind of methods? Are you using to? Strip refine your strategic business plan or you know, you're kind of five-year plan or whatever it might be and You know, there's a lot of different questions there. So let's start with them You know what what your tools to help you work smarter as a business? I love Kanban boards. So yeah, no, I do Yeah, it's just lists and you can see what you've done. What you need to do move things around So yeah, I've been using it for five years. I've moved to I've moved to streak now though and I have to say it's Highly highly efficient It allows me to So the two or three other people that work with me we can all see each other's emails on one place There's no copying and pasting over from Trello. I know you can synchronize your emails It's a bit of a digital Kanban board also But you've got the whole mail merge feature in there and it sucks all the emails in so at different stages of your Kanban board it can automate the process for you and For me for 50 quid a month is a real lifesaver Whereas you use Trello for five years I think I wish I had Trello as a teacher actually because it would be a great lesson planning tool I think curriculum plan tool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah without a doubt So I use I use a mailer mailing system as well So I've got an newsletter mailer, but I don't really I should use it for newsletters But I tend to just use it to keep the head teachers up to date I've got plans because we we're putting together teacher action groups next year. So the teachers are going to be involved So I'll have to set up a whole sequence then that'll generate automatically. So when someone says, here's your reminder Here's your reminder. Yeah, there's a whole and I'm just doing those things take so long But there you can see at that pipeline from connecting on Twitter to your website to a newsletter to a resource and then Helping people is a is a really interesting kind of process So we've talked about tools let's talk Edround table strategy and I know as an individual you're the head teacher one day in the caretaker the next day or even both on a day Is there a strategic plan? Where do you want it to be in a year? Let's start simple By the end of next year I want to be working ideally Ideally up to 200 schools Because then that would fill my my week my day really full And you work in a loan ban still have you got a couple of people to help you It's I'm working alone. Although. I've just started getting some I found a couple of freelancers Who are starting to do good work for me? So I Did build the website myself Well done A bit bit on the clunky side at times and it hasn't quite done quite what I've wanted it to So there's a freelancer coming on board it over the summer who's going to hopefully fix Right good. Yeah the issues But 200 schools in a year's time Maybe one or two secondary for the first time. Do you think I would like to I would like to have a hardcore group of you know 20 secondaries would be good because that would get you that would get them going There's not as many secondaries are there out there. So, you know out the 20 odd thousand school 25,000 schools I think 20 out of them are probably primary in five super busy if you get 20,000. So there's the So there's the online sessions. There's resources. There's newsletters. There's the is there's the annual conference So to speak can I push you a bit further in three years? What maybe you know, let's talk about some pipe dream plans. So in three years. I want it so that we've got Headteachers groups. We've got teacher action groups, which is the schools together I want to get it to the point where there is a platform for Individual teachers to come along and meet like-minded people and actually set up their own Ed roundtables groups and then from that start to build a You know, I don't know the massive sharing of Stuff because there's so much experience. I want to give people I mean some of the schools We've now got to the point where they're running sessions and we're recording videos and we're putting them up on the website So that currently individual members who sign up. We've got access to the school sessions that they did before so with the sessions on on reading on oracy on Sports premium on Applying for any HCP so I want to get more of those session stocked videos and record is enough as well. So that becomes a Bank of useful stuff I mean, I mean, I know that and it's like, you know truck for me trying to do a kind of mark plant each series of online courses I need to lock myself down for two or three weeks just to get that produced and knocked out So it's hard, isn't it? It is. Yeah. Yeah And can you give us a sense of them, you know, you're working week, you know, obviously pandemic We've both been stuck at home rather than in schools and stuff But how often are you in schools on travels and I try and get out to the to the schools. So I go to I mean, I've got a long distance But was it last week week before last I was down in down in Cornwall Visiting a salon in Cornwall Yeah, we turned it into a weekend away took my wife right said, right We're having a weekend away. We go to the school on the Monday and then we've got some got the rest of the day on the Monday We've got nice as well. You've got some for you, haven't you? Yeah, you have to you have to so where else have you been? I've been to David McPartland school flake fleet a couple of schools in Wiggins. So Meadow better fields and Where's your mains? Any international jobs yet? No, not yet. We're working not yet. Okay, right So for people listening be familiar with the podcast, you know, we've gone and we're 35 minutes in then We're doing very well, but I'm gonna switch it to a little quick fire. You're old enough to remember Timmy mallet So you can't hesitate. I've got all my notes here from our whole conversation all the different things you've said So I'll try and do a little recap on different parts and I'll see if I can catch you off guard in a moment Okay, let's start with their favorite Indiana Jones film. Oh Templar do okay Advice to your young new teacher self would be Don't shout Okay, if I was education secretary of state, I would I Challenge off-stair to change it get rid of it What what project are you working on today? Today I'm actually chatting to quite a few different people about Various things they're doing to see how I can support and help. Okay, great. Um, what book are you reading for fun? Can't say tribal leadership doesn't know it's it's this one. Okay, and it is for people listening Entangled life. It's Merlin Sheldrake. It's all right a book about mushrooms Okay, book about mushrooms. Wow. Um, your dream job. Give me that wacky career You never had so you dabble with archaeology. You've done loads of sales. You've done retail your quantity surveying What's that dream job you never got? Oh Do you know at one point I really wanted to be an interior designer, right? Okay. Nice. Not too wacky What is your biggest career achievement to date? I Think it's actually at roundtables. I don't say on staff, but I'm now Built something that that people really seem to love. Yeah, you absolutely have and Advice for people currently work in 90 hours a week Stop don't I Know it's easy to say but Find something else to do if that's if that if it's doing 90 hours a week then your health your life your family It's all suffering. Don't do it. Yeah, and it's promoting doing all the things we shouldn't be doing Okay, if we had you know, York's a great place If we had 24 hours together, where would we go? What would we see what would we do? What would you eat? What would we drink? Oh? There's there's there's some really good curry houses in York I Carrying in there's an Argentinian steakhouse Right. I like steak. Let's go Superb the herb Argentinian steak, right? That's that's food. Where are we going and what what what we're going to go and see? em We've got to do this to go to do the walls go to go up the minsters top of the minster If it's your first time in York, you've got to climb to the top of the top of the Terran set the view I would actually I use York as a base So I think there's so much around Yorkshire itself that we probably head out and head out Get to and see the sights and sounds. That's what I like to do So, yeah, the beautiful part of the world now Let's try yourself strategy grab anything on your table Oh Christ right now. I've got random things on my table. Okay, right? You've got an oral for people listening There's an a pack of oral be toothpaste. I want you to sell it to our listeners go Okay, so one of them one of the main challenges people have you know when you smile And you feel really embarrassed about your smile and yellow teeth That bit of cabbage always gets stuck there the idea behind this. This is amazing stuff It won't won't just give you that smile that you've always wanted it may even find you your next partner. Oh, there you go, right? You don't even give us a price which is pretty good. It's okay. Um, who would you recommend I interview next and why I? Have the pleasure of working with lots and lots of headteachers some amazing headteachers I think you could choose any one of them to have an interview with but if you haven't chatted with Dave McPartland yet I haven't no I shall come get him on board today and give me the why What he's doing at his school is amazing He is quite a humble guy as well Mm-hmm He's a warrior So he's constantly stressed about it and that's how you know anyone who worries and stresses quite as much as he does It tells me they really actually care passionately about what they're doing and why they're doing it. Yeah Okay, great, right. I'll contact David. Um, so where can listeners find out more about you? Any links websites at brown tables? Where would they go the the main place to find me directly? He's probably on Twitter at ed round tables. My dms are open So if you've got any questions just far away ask you can check out the website at which is edrt.co.uk Direct to the longer website name that's being done up this summer though So probably if you want to find out what's going on and what we're doing come and speak to me Okay, and I'm gonna I'm gonna test your sales skills again. Can they get a discount if they say teacher toolkit? Oh Oh That's it. That's a good one. I'm sure something might be able to be negotiated All right, well, let's see so let's see if people listen to the end of this podcast and see if they come your way Right my final big question Ben. What would you hope to be your legacy? your epitaph my epitaph Yeah, if it's gonna be written on my gravestone, probably I'd be swearing I won't repeat it. Um in terms of what leave behind I Don't know. I just wanted people to look back and said, you know what that was good work There you go. That's all we can all hope for us both, isn't it? So Ben, thank you very much for your time. What a great Project you've got it's great to see, you know, I talked to a few people and I can see the part of your network And you know when I've created SLT chat Myself in 2011 that was because I had no one to talk to and although it's a struggle for people to keep that Twitter chat up today and Twitter is very different than it was 10 years ago. It's great to see and People you like yourself bringing school leaders together who are busy and need that time So I guess for me, you know, thank you for doing so and Thank you for your time and yeah, so that's it everyone Ben brown ed round tables get involved connect with Ben and Ben keep up the good work Thank you very much Ross. Thank you for having me