 Thank you to our guests from joining us from across the country. We are here to see Marlon Peterson, Kisi Limon and Tango Esim Martin and celebrating Marlon Peterson's book, Bird Uncaged. And that is available at your library or your favorite independent bookstore as well as all of our authors books are available. We wanna welcome you to the unceded land of the Ohlone Tribal people and acknowledge the many wrong Mutush Ohlone Tribal groups and families as the rightful stewards on the lands of which we reside here in our Bay Area. The library is committed to uplifting the names of these communities and families. And we also encourage you to learn more. That link that I put in there has a link to a great reading and resource list. And we have lots of other programs that you can catch on YouTube about first-person culture and land rights. It is Summer Stride, not just for kids. So make sure you sign up for your Summer Stride reading and do that 20 hours, get your iconic San Francisco love libraries tote bag, just like you see there in the drawing by the amazing Kailani Juanita. Again, just really quick, some shout outs for what we have going on coming up. Lots of book talks, author talks every single Tuesday night and a few other times, June, July and August. So come check it out, including Total SF, August 24th. So much, tomorrow night we have our own Tom Amiano with his book, Kiss My Gay Ass. So come check that out, it's gonna be a fun one. It'll be sad when I have to stop saying Kiss My Gay Ass. All right. And so this tonight's program is aligned with our Jail and Reentry Services Department. I don't know if many of you know that we have this service at our library. So we serve all of the jails in San Francisco. We've been serving youth jails and prisons since for over almost 20 years now. And luckily those are about to become obsolete in San Francisco. So we're happy when that happens. We don't have to serve that. But I've heard it said that we do reference mail everywhere from west of the Mississippi. So this department is an amazing department and I'm so proud of the work they do. And we have a couple other programs this summer aligned with this department and partnership with Jail and Reentry Services and Oakland Public Library will be having Dr. Keisha Middlemass and Reuben J. Miller. And their books are based on race and politics and re-entering. And then we have our friend Troy Williams who we love so much. And he is part of the film, The Prison Within. And they will be screening the film as well as having a panel film discussion afterwards. So join us for these two important events. And then tonight I can't even say how amazing I am that Tongo, one is just, we're so proud of Tongo and happy that he's our eighth poet laureate of San Francisco. And we thank him for all that he brings to our library beyond just the poetry because I've been, you know, I'm totally like, again, starstruck here. I've been wanting to get Keisi Lamon for so long. So I'm just so, yes. So, but anyway, buy the books, check out the books from your favorite library which is San Francisco Public. We have them all, we have extra purchase. You can do e-books, you can do audio books. And the audio book of Bird Uncaged is narrated by Marlon. So it's very good. Is that right? Correct, yeah, it is. Okay, so Tongo is our poet laureate, as I said. He has several books out, Heaven is All Goodbyes and Someone's Dead Already. And his upcoming book, Blood on the Fog is coming out in September. And without further ado, Tongo, thank you so much for everything you bring to us and we'll turn it over. Thank you very much and appreciation everybody tuning in. I have prepared some words. As so-called citizens file in and out of an ever modernizing violence, a race to consciousness, facilitated by the minds of people like Marlon Peterson and Kiese Lehmann is the only hope for new hinges, lying minds, performing excavation with teeth and cheekbone, selfless minds, even helping ghosts with their food first. The blues hopes for peace. The blues deserves peace. So many of this players dying old and slums are dying as a federal horse bet, environmental whiteness on imperialist naturalism behind an improvised porch, the ruling class floating neighborhoods off to be adopted, swath neighborhoods with new call signs while we live under freeways every few minutes. As children, they rarely do try to drink us whole. They'll grow shoes and all. One way to a sweet tooth president, so-called citizens walking around with eyes closed, one floor beneath eyes closed, the actual people we are impersonating, chasing scraps wishing to be a capitalist gums. Winter in America or noon in the back of a squad car, bringing your stomach to a gun fight. I haven't spoken enough about liberation today. Haven't spoken enough about American nightmare. Did not protect enough of my siblings today. You know, when you start looking for unity, then comes pain. I've written poems before, mind you, but I will never have any offering more honest before the universe and the offering of these two brothers. I'm not sure they would call it a father time, maybe a toddler or twins, cosmological constant dangling like fish hooks in the city on Tarkin Taylor, on Terry Boulevard, no string and whatnot. We have for sure been to the Bible with a capital B. These two are good old fashioned victory on the page. Move your mind and be healed. It is my only honor to be known as a writer in your time. So without further ado, please give it up for my brothers, Kiese, Lamey and Marlon Peterson. Come on, man. Thank you, Tongo, but damn, bro. Yo, I knew Tygo was gonna do that to us, fam. I knew Tygo was gonna do through shit to make us kind of be like, uh, uh, uh. Yeah, we can't start so. No, we're supposed to end it off. But listen, listen, I wanna just thank, uh, San Francisco Public Library for making a space for us, fam. You know, um, I just was telling Tygo, like, I used to see Tygo and Jackson probably like four or five times that it may be like the fifth or sixth time we were at this event hosted by, you know, our sister Noelle Dila and Noelle asked everybody if they wanted to read something. And I'm looking around like, damn, oh my fuck don't want me to read none. And then Tygo big ass was like, hey, I'll read some, but ain't nobody gonna want to go after me because I'm the best poet up in this. But, and I was just like, I was like, yo, I just thought Tygo loved us and was tall. Bro, bro, this dude did some shit. I feel it bone deep, like every time I read his words. So, you know, you the illest man, you the illest, you the illest, you the illest. And we just grateful to be here in your city with you. So Marlon, though, before we start talking, can we, can we get a little bit of a reading from you from this book for people who haven't, haven't, haven't read it yet? For sure, for sure. And this is the, the, the piece I picked is Tongo and Spide, a little conversation we had before we came on yet. So it's made out in the book, it's in the chapter, Sponge. I'll just go right into it. Moses, a 50-something year old man was a devout 5% from the Bronx. He wore glasses with jester using shadow boxing moves, mid conversation and used words with the fluidity of a college professor. He was also in his uptink prison jail bed. I got to know Moses through a mutual friend who knew I had an interest in working with young people after I got released from return home. At that time, I had no idea how I would work with kids or whether I'd be allowed to since I had a conviction for a violent felony. But it was an idea that I spoke about with acquaintances. Getting word on my interest, Moses invited me to attend a youth assistance program, yeah, meeting. He said, he said school groups came into the prison on occasion, this group met to prepare for those groups. Until that point in my bed, I did not intellectually engage with anything other than Joe's reading or meetings. I believe that the teachings of the world, meaning secular books and the like serve no real benefit. They can only draw me away from my relationship with Jehovah, my relationship with God is what I believe have protected me from the worst of prison, the concentrated violence. I was fearful of losing God's protection and was intentional about not doing anything that could place me in his disfavor. This how it was for a youth program. And though I was having doubts about my religion, a meeting about kids was no threat to my faith. Except that when I got to the meeting room, the blackboard had men's empowerment written as the title, followed an outline form with the words like black woman, family, economic development, African history, dealing with anger, shown emotions and manhood. The room was packed with mostly black men with a handful of Latinos. Moses was the leaf facilitator and he was assisted by another brother named Brother Rahim. I think he was an Islamist in his day job, but he liked all the men who had both religious and gang affiliations, show no separations in spiritual gesture. Ryan Robbins thought the men debated or for advice educated. The only rules were no profanity, no N word, one mic. This is no youth program preparation workshop. And I loved it. As in most spaces, I was one of the youngest men in the room. I don't recall adding much to the conversation that Thursday, but I definitely wanted to come back. An older guy gave me the book, Now, Valley Contributions to Civilization by Anthony T. Browder, and that blew my mind. God stood around named like Bell Hook and Archie Law as if it was common knowledge. It was during these discussions that I first heard anyone speak about African people before slavery. It was the first time I had men articulate the trauma we passed the little boys when we tell them boys don't cry. The first time I felt intellectually aroused in a way that religion could not offer. I was in awe of the way Moses facilitated the conversations. He used humor to interrupt and correct. He paid attention to everyone's words or so he made it look. I wanted to get nice like him. A couple of months into the program, Moses was transferred to another prison because that's what happened in the penitentiary. People get moved without reason or warning. Friends coming to your life for times, reasons and seasons then leap abruptly. The group slowly dwindled an interest and eventually disbanded several weeks after Moses left. But the group that had gotten me wide open to grow outside my faith. In some ways the answers to my doubts were being answered. I was learning from questions instead of answers. I homed me from the group, let me let me his copy of the autobiography Malcolm X. That life of Malcolm, his willingness to grow even in the public eye attracted me. His life of evolution, more than any particular aspect of his life was to me his essence, his legacy. I rest his soldiers the coldest winter ever in one day. Her fiction included a love story which fed my imagination of romance and feminine contact. I satisfied my need for the tenderness of a woman's voice and feel through intoxicating romances with Jill Scott, Ashanti and Vivian Green. I shared a passion of love with Lauren and Alicia Keys. I would experience their voices, excuse me. I experienced their songs and conversations with me. I was most deaf in the, you don't know my name video. Jill hugged me and looked deeply into my eyes in her song, Try. Lauren and I raised children together and we had a potential spiritual connection, a potent spiritual connection. Ashanti smiled warm my soul when she said I was on time and Vivian Green and I had the best days. I left to dazzle her to blushing. This was, there was a weekend radio station where I played reggae and soaking music and I had dates for every weekend. My imagination was freedom. These were my club nights. I was in my mid-20s and wished to experience those wild 20s just like everyone else. I would tie one of my betches across my cell bar so no one could see into myself. I placed a green knit cap over the lamp in my room to give it the ambiance of a dolic club. I repurposed my shampoo bottle into a beer bottle and danced a night away from my date for the night. I created the reality I needed. This is also how I survived prison. I imagined fun. I imagined love. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Oh, I love that passage, bro. I love, love, love, love that passage. All right, so I just wanna start. I'm on periodically, just try to remind people that one of the illest books that I've read in a while is Bird on Cage. Marlon just read from it. Please, please, please find a way to go out and get that book and share the book and like talk about it. One of the beautiful things about the book is that it gives us work to toil over. And I say us, like those people, those of us who purport to love each other. I think like Bird on Cage gives us a lot of work to do. And when those people purport to love each other, do work, we can get better at love. I wanna have a real conversation with you though, man. Like, I love you, you are my brother. Often we do these things. I think we try to do like, we want to not close the audience out. We wanna kinda ask questions that the audience might. And I might ask a few of those, but I just have real questions I wanna ask you if that's all right. Yeah, man, let's go, let's go. You know, that passage you just read, like I'm thinking about the differences for you between imagination and fantasy, if there are any at all. And I'm thinking about how when we met, one of the things that you used to talk about was like the fantasy of just driving out of state. You know what I mean? Like just getting, you remember that? Because you couldn't drive. Yeah. And then, and then as we got to know each other more, you would talk more about like the fantasy of like, of not just going home, not just going to Trinidad, but like going, like flying, like leaving here. I'm interested in how you could talk about like your fantasies and imagination, Marlon, has changed from when you were inside to when you directly got outside to where you are now. Can we talk about that? I wanna start there. That's the real question from PSA, not like the question. Yeah, no, yeah. You know, it's interesting, right? I think I'm at a point in my life where some of that fantasy and imagination is in some ways a struggle to accept also. Cause like some of those fantasies and some of those things I've been able to experience and various, I mean, you know, I've been able to do some of those things. Right. So sometimes it's even just sort of accept that like, oh, this stuff happened, right? And it's happening. But I think, you know, going back to that experience from that time inside to like, you know, I think the time inside and like in like, I think that's how we live, that's how we be humans. But like, there's a difference in, and that concentrated sort of space and, you know, in jail, you know, where I was at at that point in time. The level of desperation, like in the moment, like a moment-to-moment desperation, I think, you know, I think it's like, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, I think, I could say to me, gave me a somewhat of a more of a vivid imagination and fancy. I'm like, I'm putting a merge in them. Right. I think it's much more vivid of it because there was a deep deprivation of anything close to it. You know, I think like, you know, thinking about now, this varying levels of desperation that still exists, obviously, right? But I think sometimes, and this, you know, I was, you know, I'm a writer, but I'm always thinking about the work and all that, you know, it's hard for me to divorce that, you know, and I think that like, as you know, we now, and you know, everybody says we want to reimagine this, we want to reimagine that, like some new shit now, right? That's good. You know, it's good that people are saying that, right? That's gonna result in something. Sometimes I think the ability for us to sort of be as vivid as we want to be, sometimes, and I, I can be fucked up by saying this. Sometimes I think that like, we strive, I'm gonna say people like me, because I'm all accustomed to a level of desperation that makes it difficult at times to accept that desperation isn't necessary for imagination and fantasy. Yeah. I feel that deeply, man. And you know, I'm always thinking about origin narratives and then I'm always reminded that there kind of sort of is no origin to me. But when I think about some of the origin narratives and origin threads of this book and of the Marlon Peterson, I know, you know, so much of it starts not just with the letter writing that happens when you're inside, but the reading and writing you did previous to going inside. And I wonder if you can talk to me about that, you know, you talked to people about Bird and Cage. One of the things, sadly, that they're surprised about is that you were someone who wanted to do well in school, right? I'm not sure why, like you wanted to do well and you did well in school, but I'm interested in the ways of reading and writing and how your family and your mom and stuff like cultivated that. And I'm interested in that as an origin narrative. And I wanna put that in conversation with what happens when you're inside and the letters that you send back and forth to the young people. Yeah, that's a dope question. Interesting, a lot of my reading and writing, you know, in the book I speak about, I mean, I speak a lot about religion, at least, you know, in terms of how it impacted my life. Before incarceration, that's during incarceration. So prior to incarceration, I mean, I could say a couple of things. One is that I always make a joke that when I was in high school, like I hated doing homework. It was just, I don't know, it's like I couldn't do it. And I remember one history teacher, I mean, you know, she was down one day in the classroom and she's like saying how many people, how many homeworks people are missing for that, you know, that marking period. And she kept counting to like 40, right? She was like, this was like, I didn't know homeworks, right? But I'm not bragging about that. But the thing I'm just saying is that like, but I would take the textbook home and read it. Like I would read the textbook, but I just wouldn't, I just had this thing about applying it. But it was something that interesting, right? So we're saying a ground, like there's always a ground and trying to understand like where things came from, why things happened, right? And I want to couple that with like, even so like the job was upbringing, right? So I grew up reading the Bible, reading all these Bible stories, and then talking about it to people, right? And like going in the community and talking to people about it. And though those things may not be the things that fuel me now, I think that there was always a desire that like I would want to, whatever I learned, I would want to, at least when it comes to Joe Woodness, whatever I learned, I want to give it out. Like I want to share it with folks, right? I take that from there. And then also like, all the things that I think, I think one of the reasons why history sort of always sort of like attracting was that, like I said before, I like for you to understand why people were doing things. Like I didn't understand what that was back then. You know, the stories, a lot of it was like, obviously American history, all that shit, context aside, there was always like, like why is that happening? You know what I mean? And not necessarily like, like the past of tests or something. Right. You know what I'm saying? I think going inside, even the way I read the Bible and stuff, I read that shit big rigorously. I was reading that shit like, I read it, I think I said it in the book, I read it three times, right? And, but when I went into the other things, I started getting into, like it was, and inside I used to be, people don't know it's like in jail, like they had Joe Woodness going around preaching. I ain't never told you that, right? You said, watch out, go walk around the yard at one point. What? That's all the story, but like, where it was, it was, it's interesting to the whole other world in it. But then like when I started, other things I started learning and reading and all that sort of, and writing, because it was always about like, I would read the shit and I would want to write, I would write notes about it. And I didn't know what I was doing. It was just like my way of sort of recalling things. Like even as a kid, I would write this shit down, just not do nothing with it. You know, I didn't know, you know, but I'm gonna do a writing. I'm gonna, you know, I didn't like, in some ways I'm happy that some of you are exposed to what we are now, but like, I didn't know what I could, I'm gonna do with the writing. So it just for me and my edification and I think that just took me through. It became a place, it became someone, I think I was preparing myself or I was being prepared to like create a place where I can like be safe. Yeah. And you do this thing, fam, like in the book, but also, I mean, ever since I've known you, where the beginnings of, if we talk about like your beginnings of like the imaginative journey and the end, like we are like, like black folk are central to the beginning and end. And black children, I actually think are central to the beginning and end in this book. And you know, when we first linked and you brought the kids to Vassar, what was interesting was like, you know, I had a lot of groups come to Vassar and try to bring our kids to Vassar, but they always wanted the kids to be in like classics or ACON or physics classes, you know? And I just thought it was so dope how you all wanted the kids to be in a class with me, talking to me and my talking to them. But can you talk a bit about when you understood that like, like the person to whom you were talking was important as like the person talking to you. It just seems that, it seems like audience and useful black audience has always been crucial to you. But I wonder if you can just talk about a bit about where that came from? The kids, the kids, that letter, I mean, you know, I reason I always talk about it the first time I've ever published an essay, you know, in which you do that Fugoka, it's with the kids, like the kids, it was the first time I think I understood that my words could land somewhere and then it meant something to somebody. I mean, somebody would meant, first of all, I realized I meant something outside of like my parents and you know, I meant something to somebody. But those kids and the way they reacted, I mean, the way they wrote back, like they wrote, the mere fact that they wrote back, I just wanted to just let that land. They wrote back. And they kept writing back, right? But like, they would remind me that that there was still, I mean, one thing is that there was still so much work for us to do for our folks. And they would bring me like, they would like give me some, they would give me like a reason to feel like it was okay to express myself. Like they were writing to me as 11, 12 year olds about things that, at that time, I was in my, what, mid to late 20s, right? That like, I ain't wanna write about, right? And I'm not talking about necessarily like deep, like deep physical abuse. There was some of that, but not, you know, but they were writing about things that I might, I definitely was not able to articulate. And I think that for me, it was the first time I really understood how powerful the words were. Like, I mean, I was using them all the time, but like written words. That was the first time I realized how powerful it was because they never met me. They had never seen me. They didn't know what they mean. They had no pictures, they had no Instagram, nothing like that back then. So it was just like words. And I didn't have pictures to send them up to me. So they literally didn't know who I was physically, right? They were, you can Google me back then and that, right? And I can, and although I remember I got a class photo, so I finally got to put the pictures to the, I mean, to let the surface, but like, yeah, man, like I think that was the first time I realized that the words, like words were a thing. I always talk about my answer saying words are a thing. That was the first time I realized that. Yeah. And, you know, we talked about this the other day sort of indirectly, but, you know, you say they weren't directly writing like hardcore about abuse, but, you know, we've talked in your book about, my book about trauma, right? The word. I'm not sure what people mean anymore when people say that word. It's almost becoming like love. I'm not sure what people mean when they say it, but I'm on whatever, like, let's say people mean whatever they think they mean. One of the critiques of this book from people who love it and from people who like it are like, I love that shit, but that shit is hard to read. Parts of it, the first part, the first half. Can you talk to me, not just about what you wrote, but also about your ideas of this idea, of the notion that like black quote unquote trauma is something that we might need to like not engage in. I'm as much as we do. I'm not saying that. This is just a critique that I've heard of my work and a critique that I've heard of yours. Can you tell me what you think about this idea that like we might be full of black trauma. So we need to see some other stories. So I'm gonna say this. Yes, we do need to see other stories. I wanna say that of course we do. I believe in that. I wanna write those stories too. I also look around and I gotta get people understand like my background, like I don't come up as I don't come through like a traditional writing world, right? I come as like doing work like a community guy doing work in the neighborhood, right? And a lot of it's like gun violence, do a lot of work around, gun violence, interrupter and all that sort of stuff. I see our boys dying and our girls, like I see it like, you know what I mean? And I'm in this place where I get to straddle a lot of worlds, right? I'm there and next thing I could be somewhere else, you know, fucking with child, right? Like I could be in somebody different place, but like I know and I still live in Bedside, right? I still live in Brooklyn. I see that we still got a lot that we haven't been able to save, right? Like, you know, I've been blessed. Like I've been in the hood, I've been in the blessing hood. Hey, I've been a hood throughout the country. I've been in the hood in Trinidad, I've been in South Africa, I've been in the hood in God. I've been in the hood in a lot of places where a lot of black and brown folks are and it's a lot of shit we ain't skip to save. And it's why we hurt, it's one of the reasons why we hurt in so much. You know what I mean? Like when I think about, I was coming out of lens, like I wrote this book thinking about, it's a lot of violence in a book, right? Cause I went through it, right? And I didn't go through the most. Right. That's the thing, like I didn't have like the worst shit. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I just want to, I need people to understand this, like I think it's important for us to create the images and the futures we want in our art now. I think we need to create the images and the images and the images in our art now. I also, I'm, but my role, my role, my role, it's because I've seen things, it's things I can't unsee, right? You know, and if people I can't like, just misremember. You know what I'm saying? And I know, and I see it now. And I'm like, you know, even like right now, like fuck it, like they use our black pain to create policy that creates more black pain, right? So like right now, with the upticks and violence, everybody's feeling like now, man, you need police. Here in New York, if we got the top mayor or a candidate, say we need to bring back Stop and Chris, right? They're using our pain to create more policy that creates more black pain. And so I'm saying that, look, I believe we do. Cause that's how we create. But I'm also saying that like, all of us ain't had the opportunity to say what we had, what we've seen and experienced. And we can negate those folks. Cause those are the folks who make or break out communities. Yeah, bro, that's- We don't. That's a brilliant answer right there, bro. Like, yeah, that's it. That's it. That's it. And yeah, and it just gets at one of my questions often, it's rhetorical, it's like, I wonder who people think they're protected when they say we don't have, we don't want any more black trauma. You know what I mean? Like two black creators. I wonder who they think they're protected. I'm gonna say the interjection. I don't want black trauma. It ain't like I wanted, you know, we don't want it. Right. I don't want that shit. But you also don't want the person who has seen some of that stuff to feel like they cannot talk about it and write through it. Cause they can't talk about it, they can pull the trigger. Yeah, I feel that. I feel that. I'm gonna just say this one thing, like there's just one, I know, I'm just gonna say this, like this is, I put a post up on Facebook the other day, but like, I saw a video here in Brooklyn of there's a shootout happening. A man was chasing another, a young boy, which is another young boy, and it was a little one, I'm saying a young woman and a little girl. And the guy who was chasing ran and used the kids as a shield. And the other guy was still shooting. I mean, yeah, there is, there's a lot of happening there. Outside like that needs to stop. It takes, what's happening that soul in those humans' mind that they can't see the harm that they're creating. The way we could. The way you and I can see it, they're not seeing it. And I'm thinking that we need to hear that story. Right. I need to understand why a human would do that. Absolutely. You know, one of the things I do to you, for him like, and it's sort of a joke, but the fucking thing is like, you know I always mean it. Because you always, you know, used to have this group called the presidential group, like they're playing off your name, like president, right? And I don't know, Van. Like I think it's the tango vibe that makes me always think about my investment in empire too much. So like sometimes when I'm like, damn, bro, like I don't believe in presidents, but if I did, I want you to be the president of something. Do you know what I mean? And I be feeling that shit, bro, because like I know it's a bargain, but the reason I want to apologize is because I actually do not want you or anybody I love in those positions, yet there's a part of me that wants you and people I love in those positions. And I'm wondering if you can talk to me about the push and pull you have. I think there's an ultimate question about empire, but about traditional leadership, right? Like when you look at your communities, our communities, this nation, if we want to call it a nation, and you look at your skill set and you look at electoral politics, I know other people have talked to you about electoral politics. Can you tell me today, what your feeling is about electoral politics in general, like helping us deal with the shit we want to do, deal with in our communities, and what your desire is to play if you have a desire to play in electoral politics. I appreciate that. So I think, listen, I think that we are in our structure, demands that we engage in a political process. That's the side that we live in, right? I don't, that's just how the fuck the shit goes, right? Like, you know what I mean? Demands that we engage in and that's what democracy, quote unquote, democracy is. And people play their roles for people to play in that space. My thing though is the way that, the rules of that game, right? And I'm not saying everybody, I know there are people, I know people, I'm sure you know people who are like true to the people and all that, right? I'm not knocking that. But the way, I'm just sort of thinking strategically, right? Because I was, you know, we all can put our strategic hats on. And there's a thing about that, like once you get in those positions, the way to really develop power and nurture power is to be around for a long time, right? You can't go on, you gotta be around for a long time. I can come in there and stuff and do this shit, but the way that gain, the way that organization, the corporate culture is that, no, you gotta earn your shots, you gotta be here for a while, join this committee, join this, do that, that, that, that, raise that type of money. And money is always at the center. They're always at the center. How much money for rates, right? And in order to be good at it, to help our people, there are things that you have to say, I'm gonna put you to the side for our people for now. People call us diffused different words. Some people call it a compromise. And I'm saying like, those are things I'm saying like, and we, I encourage people who are able to stomach that to be able to be there because we need them there. I mean, I want people there. I just don't know if I could, man. I don't know, man, it's like, I just don't know if that's a place that would be worthy of the type of person I want to be in the world. That's real. That's a great answer. I don't know, but people be asking, people be asking. I'll be saying no, and they be asking again. Yeah, yeah. It definitely ain't worthy. It definitely ain't worthy of you. That sight ain't worthy of you for sure. I do want to ask this question though, you know. But you gonna be my speech right if I do. I have to do it on the low, bro. I'm gonna give him the speech at the joint. I'm gonna give him the speech. You wouldn't get elected with minds, bro. Yo, can you imagine that speech, man? Yeah. We should imagine the kind of thoughts. I can't imagine. You know, one of the things, man, I really do want to ask about is, you wrote this, we collectively wrote this essay called Echo about eight years ago. And in your section, you wrote about your own assault. And you wrote how this was the first, and again, I mean, you've been playing with audience since I've known you, bro. And you are responding to Kai and Michael Denzel and Darnell Moore and me. And you say that listening to us and knowing that you're writing to us necessitated you go into a place that you traditionally had not felt comfortable. And then you take that place and you go, go, go there in the book. I wonder if you can talk about the importance if there is any importance for you of fear when writing through not just violence, but harm. Like, are you afraid before and during the writing of it? And can you talk about what it feels like if you ever do come up out of it and other people get to read it? I want to say thank you once again for that, you know, for that echo being a part of Echo Joint. Because I was the first one, like I said, the first important time I ever even let out a little bit of some of the things that happened, right? And I did it fast. You read it really fast, I just run through it, right? And I want to, like, there was a reason why I wrote through that fast. I remember writing, laying on my bed writing that. And the reason why I wrote it fast is because I wanted to rush through it. I literally wanted to rush through it. Like I said, I got, you know, as a writer, I don't know if you feel it that way, but like, you feel like you got to let it out. Like, damn, and you don't want to say it because like, fuck, I would say this out, but you got to, like you just can't. And, but I didn't know how to, so I needed to rush it out. So I need to rush the words out in that essay to let you understand like really literally what it felt, but that like it hurts so much that I can't take time on it. Moving forward, you mentioned the assault. It was, I mean, of course it's hard. I can't, I've said it many times, it's the hardest part of the book to write. And the fear, I think there was a fear of how much it would retrigger me in writing it because I'd never given detail of it. The only time I gave a detail, I have a problem with the short now podcast and my nephew, like I had the interview and that was the first time I audibly like really gave details. And I couldn't finish it. Like I still can't listen to that episode. That's amazing episode, bro. I mean, I can't listen to it. Yeah. And I can't because I, and I wanted to say it to him because he's one closest people to me. And I wanted, I was, I've always been in fear of talking about how much I've been, how much hurt I had, right? And there's a lot of reasons for that, right? I want to get to all that and what we can, but in the writing process, particularly in the writing of this book or even a lot of my other writers, I'm pushing myself to do, like I'm pushing because I also know that like anything I'm doing other people dealing with too in various ways. So I just kind of know that we're humans too. So like, I know I'm not only doing it to me. You know what I'm saying? I'm just really trying to get better. Yeah. And like I said, as a, you know, I didn't realize when I was young why I was writing and keeping things and writing and keeping things, I was preparing. I said, like, I guess I was preparing myself or preparing a way to be safe. Right? And I keep saying that word and obviously I can't wait till I grow out of using that word so often when it relates to me. But like it's, I'm working through the feelings of unsafety, right? Unsafe to, so I do that. Like it's the place where I can do it. It's the safest place for me. You know, so I'm definitely always working through it. And I'm also, but I also know what you're saying. I always get, I know that this part of me that also can be fearless. Like I know I can be both. I've experienced a lot. And you know what I mean? I can also be fearless. So I know I can get through it. That's the other part. Like I know I can get through it. It might be hard, but I know I could. You know, it's so interesting, fam. You know, I think sometimes when you write through things that appear to be tenuous for other people or you folks sometimes give you this moniker of like courageous about all things, you know what I'm saying? So like, you know, I wrote a book about my mama's relationship with me and heavy and addiction and sexual violence and all of that. So people think that, oh, he's an honest writer and courageous about all the shit that I write about. And I'm not. And the thing I think I'm least courageous about is like my actual experience and my family's actual experience with guns. I don't know how to publicly write about that because there's so many people who are still implicated and I'm not sure. But for those people who don't know you yet have not read Bird on Cage yet. I wonder if you can tell us why we should imagine and work to have a world or a place or communities without guns. And how do you speak to that part, the parts of our community that understandably and rightfully say like, I need to be strapped to defend myself. What do you, I know you got, this is a softball from my own Peterson, but can you talk about that? Now, you know what I'm gonna say? I remember being in your city one time and it's something to do. And he was talking about guns. Like, yeah, we need them shit. So like, I remember in your city in Jackson one time, a couple years ago, the one time I've been. Yeah. Here's the thing about guns, right? I do, humans have a need to always protect themselves, right? You know, post-op preservation, that whole set of thing. And that's real is not fabricated, but it's a real thing. I have my particular problems with that. Like the, first of all, guns in our community, most of us in our communities have not had good experiences with guns. Right. And we can, I wish we could like collectively just, we can all shake on that. Like collectively as a community, we have not had good experiences with guns. Right? And this, I just want to say that. So, and then moving beyond that, of course we live in the most violent country in the world. We live in a country where guns is the ethos of the country, right? This is where we make money. This is how we get powerful. This is how we run. This is how America runs on weapons. I just think that I want us to figure out ways to be less connected to the Americanism, to figure out ways to be less connected to it. Right? I mean, that's what harm reduction, whatever, right? And if you are in positions where you feel like you need to have one and protect, of course I ain't not here saying no, none of that shit. I'm just saying though that like, there's a way guns harm black and brown people, in a way that it doesn't harm white people. It doesn't, right? It doesn't harm, and I just want us to be just like, come to grips with that. I'm not saying that we don't live in a world in America without weapons. I would love it. But I'm also saying I'm also understanding like where we are in the ethos of this nation unless we undo America in any sort of way. But just understand that like we, just come to grips with that. I don't have a loan. I can do this for a loan. I can, you know, I talk about guns all the time, but like for that, right? Like come to grips that them shits do more harm to us than they do good. And they have always done more harm to us. They've always done more harm to them. And when you travel and you go to hoods and ghettos and other places, you see the same shit. Them shits do more harm to us. And that's all I'm saying. It's like we all are human beings are capable of harm and healing. We are all capable of both, right? We are both absorbing it, of inflicting it, all the shit. I'm saying that like we all in the process, we should all be in the process of trying to figure out how to be less harm. Like to be able to check ourselves. And I'm saying like one of those things is like guns harm us more than it helps us. That's all I love. That's the way I leave it. You know what I mean? And I've never had any good experience with guns. Yeah, man. Tiger, do you want to say anything about that? Yes, it's a tricky compass to play with. I think one kind of potential trajectory would be coming to terms with the fact that we need to start reabsorbing our powers or the various powers of creating reality and facilitating reality. So we know that our educational reality is not facilitated by us or nowhere near on the scale that it needs to be our medical reality and also our military reality. So if we start to groom ourselves for an epoch of real self-determination, grooming our unity for an era of self-determination, I think that would be a good compass to dance with. But that's my concern right now with our people is just really how inhibited we are because the first thing we do is surrender power, surrender various powers. But it's an impossible quick solution. And the belief with a lot of us and our folks is that the gun is not a surrender power, right? That's what I think it gets complicated. I think you've got some folks believing like I've got to be strapped because I ain't going to surrender power. Go ahead. No, no, I get it. It's not like I get it. I get it completely that the gun, it can be a symbol of giving up. We've given up so much. So there's no question about that. I just want to know, this is a conversation around power. Then how much real power can we manifest in the power of the gun in this wretched society, American society? We don't want to just chuckle it without what we have. But there's so many other places where, like Tungo said, we give up so many ways to give up power. Those other places that we give up power, and we can sit here and name a whole laundry list of it, we can calculate the impact of those things that we give up in other ways to return to power. Because once again, it's hard, man. It's hard, and I get it. But my thing is, though, it's just that I also think about this deepening this individual on the micro level is that I don't know why we live in a nation where we got to make, like, 3 million new guns every year. Like, we make mad new guns every year. So there is power, but there's also a capitalist interest in the fact in us believing that we need them shits. Yeah. Like, there's a great corporate interest that we continue to feel that we need them shits. Why the fuck we got to keep million? We make more guns per year in America than we make children. Right. Just like, you know, I just want to think about, like, you put your money with your mouth, and we got more guns in the country than we got people. Right? So I'm just saying, like, this is a corporate interest. And that's not like we're saying, like, they make a new batch every five years. They're making them shits all the time. Sometimes you got to consume them somehow, and there ain't that many rabbits out there to shoot. Now, you know the wild thing to me, y'all, is that, you know, a lot of us either individually or, you know, direct mommas, fathers, aunties, folks who raised us, you know, growing up in black in this country, like, you know, you know people who use them, use them, use them guns, right? You know, like, we know killers, right? Or we are killers, whatever. But my problem is, like, I just don't, like, you know, I know a lot of young people who are not young anymore, who have a lot of bodies on them, brother. Like, I just don't know many brothers and sisters and gender non-conforming black folks who got a lot of, like, who killed people who we know have harmed us. So, like, the whole self-defense shit when I'm talking to people who are so pro-gun, I just don't ever, I can't, the part I can't read my mind around is, like, we know the people who are fucking killing us, we know where they stay at, we know, we see them driving around neighborhoods, and I'm like, how come the killers ain't doing what the killers do? I'm not saying they should, but I'm just saying it just, that perplexes me. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm not going to toggle. Real quick, you know, you can't even begin to operate militarily when, you know, the number one power, the power of how you define yourself in the collective or the whole, you determine yourself to be a part of, until that becomes sane, and until that becomes scientific, you can't even build, you know, you can't even build a proper defense. Yeah, I mean, you talk about organization, and it's like, how do we organize folks to be able to be, you know, if they're going to use weapons, use them in a way that brings love to our communities, right? That's, you know, how do we organize folks that way, right? And I'm down for that any day of the week, right? And there have been many, there are attempts at that. I'm going to say they were, there are attempts that even at this moment, the thing though is like, you know, the violence, we also got to get to like, you know, the violence that we see in our communities aren't because we just are inherently violent, like a gun can't stop the violence. That's like saying police would stop it, right? Like the guns can't, guns can't stop the violence because guns ain't the reason, aren't at the root of why the fuck we harming each other, right? Or why, you know what I mean? And that's where you only got to look at, put the spotlight at the nation, right? Like you can't just look at like, you shit that's going on to us, you always look at the spotlight like, how that shit is coming from someplace else, right? I just saw this big Gregory doctor of the day, the screen is going to come out on Independence Day. And one of the quotes in it was, a one of quotes that he said in the shit was, all the dirt that you've seen on me came from America. I was like, so is it. And then the other quote he says like, why does America keep expecting black and brown people to be better than it? You know what I mean? And like, you know, so like any, listen, any issue in terms of, you know, I always say it because, you know, oftentimes when people who have been like in the gun violence prevention or that sort of community work, they come out and only stick on like, what we need to stop doing, what we need to start doing with each other. And like, of course, we need to start, we need to stop doing a lot of shit, right? And we need to start doing different things. There's no question. But like, I can never put us in a vacuum. Like we are not, we are not divorced from like the violence of we see every day. We can never be, we're not other, we, you know, we're of it now. You know what I mean? Like of it now in so many ways. Let me ask you a question, Marlon. Have there been some organizing efforts that you've seen lately that have been effective or inspired you or even giving you some ideas? In terms of like, just in general, oh, I think someone in particular type organizing. I mean, I always look at like the work that we used to, I say we, people are still doing it. I was a violence interpreter back at the start when I was 2010 here in New York. And the way we worked was, first of all, we were like people from who, from the hood, like those who did time, you know, from the neighborhood. And part of our thing was that we didn't interact with police and we had like, there was a supervisor who always told the police that we don't fuck with the police, but we didn't. Meaning that like, we met with people and we congregated. We kicked it with dudes, people in our community who we know was like hitters. Like people who we knew were the most likely to shoot or shot. We had those relationships. And you know, the purpose of doing that was like build relationships with those folks so that like, in case something happens, they could be like, well, I ain't gonna spaz out because Marlon, I'm dudes on the strength of Marlon, I'm not gonna do it. You know what, I'll use me as an excuse, whatever. Right? The reason I'm sort of bringing that up, one is that like, that's grown a lot. A lot of people talk about that now. A lot of cops just talk about it now. But there's something to be said about valuing the people who are the most devalued in the neighborhood to be able to bring some sort of health to the neighborhood. Right? There's something about that. And there's something about being able to, the power of organizing those folks. Right? I mean, this is a lineage, right? So anything that we do now is done before. A passage did that shit. Like, you know what I mean? Like they organize certain groups of people. That's why the passage was so powerful at a one point in time, right? Could they organize the people who are most likely to fuck up the neighborhood? Right? That's where the power is, right? So that encourages me that people are doing that in various ways now. I don't think there's any new, I mean, if there's no new shit, we call it a new name now, right? But like, there's a lineage of people who I think who I've seen, and I've seen this grow in other places where they have the respect of everybody in the neighborhood to be able to build relationships with people, right? Everybody wants somebody to feel good. Everybody wants to feel good. Tango, have you seen organizing that you think the rest of us maybe should be aware of? And I am sad right now, brothers. You know, I think what was kind of missing right now is an ideological clarity that I think is really holding us back from kind of turning the corner and bringing, you know, and synthesizing a kind of a, synthesizing a movement reality that can actually become a mass reality, or that's actually synthesized from the mass denominator. And there's actually clear about well, what is a transformed society or for lack of a better word, what is a revolution? Now, what does a society look like as a revolution continues? Until we can make those agreements, we can't really put together political program and, you know, I'm like a nerdy dreamer, you know what I'm saying? But until we put together those agreements, then we can't actually line up a principled movement that can move just based on analysis, based on politics. As long as it's gaseous, what exactly we're subscribing to within of that, that's when, you know, opportunism takes over. That's when a kind of a deadly reformism takes over. And we kind of just, we lose another round to the ruling class. So if I was to campaign for anything right now, it'd be heavy emphasis on political education. I do like, also, I like people's assemblies and he's kind of like embryonic structures of self-governance and a whole kind of a whole village outreach, you know, as opposed to, you know, kind of combating this nonprofit industrial complex being that we end up with where it's like, okay, this is the youth stuff. This is the prison stuff. This is the senior stuff, you know what I'm saying? This is the art stuff, you know? Then really, really putting it into one, into one revolutionary effort that puts us back into a frame of a whole and not just an individual adventure, you know? So again, I got more problems than solutions. But that's just where I would, that's where I would push us to address. And so then it's also time for, you know, let's get together and get to the bottom of it. You know, let's have some ideological conferences. Man, let's, you know, let's have these conversations see if we can get to some agreements because we're operating on too many different planets, some way more important than others. You know what I mean? Some saving way more lives than others. But we all have to get in the same car. Yo, man, you know what? I forgot to do the questions and answers y'all because y'all motherfuckers is so incisive. I'm not sure what we supposed to do. Should we make, is there any time for any questions or answers? Anybody have to listen, have any questions or answers? Technically, we have like a minute or two left. How long is it supposed to go? It's a good question. I think an hour. It's generally an hour, but if you want to keep going, you've got the space. Well, I hope to pose some questions there. Yeah, if y'all want to ask some questions, like go ahead and please do. And thank you, Nisa, for making this space for us. I'm interested y'all, maybe I'll just throw a question out there and give people time to put some questions in the chat. I mean, I just want to ask y'all, like if we was in the car, how much money is enough money for y'all? Oh, shit. What did I got now? I'm really asking, I'll be wanting to have like basic conversations when it is about like, what does that, like, how do those of us who are super critical of this, super critical of ruling classes, like do we want to be in it? Like what, like how much money do we need? Yeah. Man, allow the zealot to speak, brother. Please, please. I think we have to get off the money thing, you know? Don't get me wrong. I mean, I don't really make real money, but I make enough money. I make time, you know. I get enough to kind of have like a decent kind of working class life, but without having to spend, you know, hours and hours and hours giving myself to account, you know? But we lose with the dollarism. Yeah. To, you know, to put some OG Malcolm in it or to put some, you know, put some Martin in it, that dollarism that they spoke of when we centered that, I think that's where some implosion happens. And, you know, we have to, it's so destructive. I mean, trying to find common ground with folks on the money thing, I think it ultimately contradicts efforts, man. You know, I don't want to starve. I don't miss, I don't miss being dead, dead, dead, bro. You know? Great, great. But it is that kind of like, that centering of money, even culturally, even people who have no, you know, it's, I think it's, I think it's actually where the devil really slides into. No question. I was thinking about what you said, my, you know, ideological clarity, and I just wanted to, I mean, I think capital and the way that we understand it makes that not impossible, but it tries hard as fuck to make it impossible, you know, to make like a particular kind of clarity around. So anyway, I'm just wondering like, what does it mean to have an, you know, ideological clarity around different kinds of self, not just self-preservation, but self-determination. Like, I don't know. I feel like we got to get, we got to get that clear point of view around the dollar while we do that sort of work. But I'm not sure how we, how we do that. I think, I think it, for everyone that's dealt with this for generations, but you started, one of the questions you asked earlier was about, you know, politics, right? And in order to get anything moving, the first question, I've, you know, the first question anybody asks you, if you're thinking about running for office. First question, ain't what your issues are, what community you want to represent, how much money do you think you can raise? That is the first question they ask you, right? And the reason I bring that in is because, like, we live in a, you know, like, in this, we are all in a place of constant conflict, right? For one is that, like, we live in a structure where wanting more is normal, right? We have to admit, wanting more is normal in this society, whether you want a new jeans, a new get your nails done, get a new sneakers, a new trip, new house, new car, whatever the shit is, right? So we live in this type of society, but also in a realistic way, in our generation, in our moment of being on this planet, there are certain things, like you're talking with me, there's certain things that we all have these internal conflicts, but like, do I really need a house? Or do I just stay in a studio in an apartment? Like, do I really? Right, do I want to build, you know, you got to own something, because you own something, you can pass it on. So we need to, you know, you wanna, you know, you can build wealth or whatever the hell is the people say own thing. I'm saying that like, you know, these are very individual decisions. I think though, right, these are very individual decisions. I, that's what I believe, right? I do think that we have to have, I remember in the wire, Omar, you're like, you got to have a code, you know what I mean? Like, you got to, you know, you see the ideology, you have to have a sensor, you have to have a core of what is it you, what is it, what's your for in life, right? And you need to be able to either have people who can check you or who love you, who can check you, or have that sort of internal consciousness to be able to do so. So that you're not getting like overwhelmed, you're not getting drunk, you're not getting drowned in the mortars. I just, I think it's something that we all battle with, right? We don't need, I don't, we can name shit, right? But I do think that I just don't wanna be, I'm not the type of person to be like, see, that person, they got too much. And I mean, sometimes I do it straight up, right? But like I'm saying like, I try not to be that person. You know what I'm saying? I'm trying not to be that person but I also don't know what it's like. Like I got a problem on dementia, right? Not on dementia, that has dementia, right? Like I would love to have way more money to take care of this. Way more, right? And I'm not saying just enough to take care of him, but enough so that a lot of shit is better for my family, right? Is that, and there's a moreness to that. It's not always necessity. We are okay, they are okay right now in the apartment that they've been living in for, I mean, 20 years. They don't need more necessarily, not necessarily, but I do want more because I know it could be better for him. And then the rest, you know, my mom's another thing. It's a complicated question to you. But for me it is. I just try to stay in a lot of that life. I'm gonna fuck up in that question. Oh, I love that friend. All right, let's get these questions in here and then, and then, you know, some of us gonna try to get ready for bed. Yeah, yeah. We're gonna west go east go. It's reading powerful. This for both of you. It's reading powerful. And what are y'all reading? Oh yeah, it's powerful. That's how society's a meme. I'm reading this joint called Save the Cat. And it's a joint about writing movies. That's what I'm reading right now. Oh, what? All right. It's reading powerful. So, you got a answer to that that goes slant. Man, I'm so delinquent. I just got stacks and stacks of books, man, that are not touched. I got every Gerald Horn book known that is not being touched. But speaking of money, you know, I got the myth and propaganda of black buying power and somewhere in the cut, I got the black booze, YZ. I have to get on their helmets. So I am preparing for conversations, you know what I mean? I also, you know, man, it's been sitting here for a thousand years or really has been sitting here since January 6th, a black reconstruction by W.E.B. Oh yeah. Just to get some, you know, some instruction on this neo confederate tendency that is that really that a part of the ruling class itself is leaning towards. I'm not looking for lessons from near tours on it to do this, but I'm delinquent. That's the one though, that black reconstruction. That's the one. All right, this is the last one. And then I want y'all opinions on both of these and then we're going to hopefully be up out of here. Where is the question that, wait, is this a question? All right, I found Mr. Eisen Martin's point about the need for ideological clarity is indeed so important in his comment about the atomization, if that's the right word, of the many causes is a good one. But it seems like a really big hill to get on, to join when understandably, so many causes are critical. What do y'all think about D'Ala? I'm not sure. What I get from it, they're trying to, like there's so much to deal with. How do we get to one? Because there's so many things. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I hope that's right. Mark, Mark, God, Gary, Gary, you want to try? I mean, that was your comment, Tom, go. You're about the time that's been quick. You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, I mean, I think, you know, I think, you know, you know, history is the graveyard of empires. I don't think any organizational task is impossible or beyond the competency of the people and the competency of beautiful people like you both. And so it's just, you know, yeah, it's just a matter of staying at it. It's for, I'm not giving up anytime soon. I don't have anything better to do. I'm saying that. You can't even try to figure it out and synthesize, you know, synthesize ideas from praxis, you know. Yes. Last question for real. How do y'all breathe when it feels like it's like, there's absolutely no respite in our lives? And can I double that question up, man? Because like, man, Marlon, man, you're such a, man, you're such a warrior of life. And, you know, I'm really, you know, kind of interested in like the day in, day out trenches of your just internal cultivation. You know, what are the landmarks that it's made of? What are the practices, you know? How do you, how do you, how do you dance with it? Yeah. Ah, man. Writing, you know, one way I deal with it. Music is one way I do, I'm always listening to music. Always got these headphones in my ears. You know, out of, maybe out of necessity, I've developed an ability to drift away by myself a lot. And I mean, like, like, you know what I mean? Like I've developed a, I've developed a ability, probably sometimes I'll say the gift in a curse to be very comfortable by myself. And I think one of the reasons why I said, maybe out of necessity is because of all the things, right? Like all the things, like this book I wrote ain't all the things, you know what I mean? There's a lot of things, but it ain't all the things, right? And I think I, you know, I find bodies of water to be by. Anytime well before the plane, you know, when you just fly more often, I would find a way to be by somebody or water. Water, water talks to you, ocean water, like session to me. And that's one of the ways I kind of like deal with it, right? I burn trees, I burn trees, right? That helps me sort of like, kind of like calm and deal with it sometimes. I have, you know, I got people around me. You know, I do got people around me that helped me, particularly my younger people, you know, some of my little nieces and nephews who like give me a little, a lot of energy. And for what it's worth, you know, man, this is something that I always bring this, I mean, I bring it up often. A couple of years ago, I was at, we used to have these things called black brilliance brunches, black brilliance brunch, right? When we, Darnell used to put those together and Brittany and a bunch of folks, but Brittany, Brittany Cooper. So this one particular time, I was like, I was actually going to a really deep place of depression. And it was always like early in the process of this book. And I remember they had the brunch around my neighborhood somewhere close because they would move locations. And Darnell was like, come on, man. I was like, nah, I just wanted to be in the house. I just wanted to stay in the, like, be inside. Kind of like, so I came out. And I ain't want to be there, but I was there. And I remember sitting and talking to Brittany, Brittany Cooper, we all know her, Brittany, we all know Brittany. And I don't think it was talking about anything deep in my life, but she said something to me that I always hold true, that like, pretty much took me off a cliff, helped prevent me from walking off a ledge or maybe a subway track was, Molly, you've been through worse. You can get through this. You can get through anything. You've been through worse. I don't know how much more I like Brittany though. So I'm just saying that like, so in terms of like how, like, I know I've been through worse. And I know if like, I know I've survived it. You know, I know I've survived it. Like I'm here, you know what I mean? So sometimes it's like, you know, people say you count your blessings or whatever you want to say, but, you know, we're guessing through it. It's the fact that I know I can get through it. I said that earlier about some shit about writing, right? Like, I know I could. And I think that's, it's like to end it off, pivot off like this is the last question. And that's why I'm like, I go so hard for black folks because I know we've been through shit. And I know we came through shit. And I don't think we should keep going through shit. Like do we have to go through? We live in this type of world. That's why we're here. We have all these folks out here that's organized in the legacy of so many people. But I know we can do this shit. Like, I know it. Like I just, you know, you say, you know, just like I know that I got five fingers, right? On my right head. You know what I'm saying? Grab a key. We heard that. That's my last point. Nah, but watch out the side though, man. Nah, but like, that's how I get through it. You know what I mean? I know I could. You know what I mean? You know, in particular ways in which I didn't think I could. You know what I mean? And I know we can do it as a people. So the shit that you say and the person asked about the ideological differences, you fucking could. All right, y'all. Sorry, somebody failed in my... What? Okay. I love y'all deeply and selfishly. I just really thank y'all for loving us. And I like fucking with y'all because I know y'all both trust that we're gonna win. Not sure what winning mean, but I know we're gonna win. No question. So yeah, so thank y'all. Thank y'all deeply. Thank you, Anissa. Thank you, San Francisco Public Library. Thank you deeply, deeply. Thank you for having us, Tongo. All right, Marlon. It's all love, y'all. Thank you. Much love, y'all. Thank you, thank you. Thank you and library community. We'll see you again, Tongo. Thank you so much for being with the San Francisco Public Library. Marlon, get some sleep. Kisi, thank you all. Bye, the books, check out.