 Yeah, well, so we don't follow proficiency education right for the records. Yeah, and let me just see this up a little bit more because it's interesting and I don't think I know when having these conversations But when I go for coffee in Montpelier, and I sit this to you and even today running into a family Proficiency, I keep hearing concerns about proficiency education. We've heard them from some of our members that they're concerned with proficiency education we're gonna look at it in more detail tomorrow, but the Miscellaneous education bill likely has whether to get voted out or not to drop off something in there about you know Some kind of study around proficiency education Should we continue? We see that some states are saying kind of maybe put on the brakes What what are you hearing more in more detail from your members, okay fair enough Thank you for the introduction. Yeah So for PVGRs, you know proficiency-based grading requirements, yeah are Schools that required to do them. Yeah, they require they are yeah, okay in some level and so not all schools are doing it Yeah, they receive public money. Yeah, just say it that way and Where it's being done and done well, I think it was a great That is a little bit of a broken record here. There was a fair amount of Professional development that led up to it. Yeah, there are some places where there's less than a lot of PD Before we're done. And so people then whether it be the staff Parents students were not as well-informed as they could have otherwise been So I think I think your notion of in the Miscellaneous bill Education bill having a study in there of some kind. It's always good to take a look at what you've asked people to do And see whether it's working for students pretty primarily. Yeah What you heard from your constituent and one of my members Megan Morgan put Lucy which that's by the year a few weeks ago She mentioned she had to keep two grade books. That's right And that does not seem wise use of her time or her colleagues time around the state. We're doing that And in large measure, I think that's because kids who are aspiring to college May Out of state for example may encounter schools where they're not so familiar with PBDRs and it's they're left the admissions officers. I guess admission staff or left Scratch in their head. What is this something new something different? How do I square that with kids from other states where there's an ABC kind of rating system? It's a different rating system. So that that is of concern to parents who Want their kids to do well. That's maybe what you're hearing in the coffee shop Want them to go to the best college they can Get into and can afford and all those fun discussions that take place as parents will And if they're seeing or sensing some Problem with their child's ability to matriculate as college that they think they could handle Financially and academically then that's a concern. I think that's the what you're hearing that we did pull our members in 2019 about And there's Partly 2019 before before before cove before cove April 2019 So pre-covid and fair enough and thinks I Don't think I've heard much in the way of improvement or more noise about it Yeah, pretty noisy back then people in the pandemic hit and you know, there were bigger problems. Yeah So, you know, one of the things we we heard from our members was And I'm happy to show this with you. I'll make tailored a little bit because some of the stuff is not relevant for this discussion But three quarters were not involved in the development of the plans. So that's that's a problem Yeah, I would say right if you're gonna do something with staff and ask them to do something You want to make sure they're involved at the ground level and and get buy-in and yeah intimacy with the discussion Half of our members didn't think there was adequate resources to implement the the change That was a change that they didn't see was resourced well And a fifth said they didn't receive adequate the excuse me a fifth said they received adequate professional development means for this didn't this on the level in the very degrees of Yeah, and Half of the murder did not receive adequate Training the transition so it's sort of you've got the build-up and then as we involve into it So that there's room for improvement. I would say for those schools that are doing it and Just to confirm every school is supposed to be right. I believe that's right I think that is yeah, because I know I searched. There's nobody I don't think there's any PPR police. Yeah, yeah, right? That's yeah, I'm even candid with you that okay, and I don't believe all the schools again Who are receiving public tuition dollars are doing that at all or required to do it. Yeah, and so There's a disparity in how it's being implemented Yeah, and disparity in how it is rolled out and I think that it's wise for you Suggesting this links, but we'll take a look at that. Yeah, see whether it's working for families and students primarily Yeah, I think do you have any sense for members around that college time whether or not, you know Because it's it's a different grading system If you've decided to all of a sudden switch to college I mean, is this causing any problems with admissions? Do you know anything about that? You know, that's a little bit out of my bill. Yeah. Yeah, so Uh, I don't know but what I hear any goblins probably what you do is people are concerned about Is a three On on my child's report card. Yeah equal to a student who's in some other state who's got an A. Yeah And if you're an admissions officer, how do you equate a three with an A? Is a three good? Uh, well, you know, it's one two three four The three is me the standards, you know four is doing well above. Okay. Yes, I do it How much is um, if you I don't know if you can answer that how much is the pushback That I sometimes hear against pg are just a resistance to change and how much is actual legitimate concern And if you can answer that yeah, I mean well, it's all generally and anecdotally say that people are reluctant to For change, you know change is hard I've been doing this for 20 years all sitting here and telling me I'm doing it different I was doing it wrong for 20 years, you know, that's um, and the other notion is uh that Well, you know to the earlier question, you know, what probably trying to solve here Now the idea is the flexible pathways to get more kids Into uh places where they could excel and exceed and their expectations and our expectations of them um But uh, I I think that's That change is hard for students Changes are hard for families. I mean I grew up, you know, you get number grades Yeah, uh, and and so I'm aging myself dating myself a bit on that But but we understood where we were and the kids didn't as that rolled out what I heard is that they weren't understanding where they were relative to their classmates relative to where they were and relative to the the uh curriculum in front of them and uh It may take time changes hard and But it was designed to not measure It was designed to measure student success along the road If you will and that it's in a constant effort to improve at their goals Is uh proficiency based uh learning or evaluations of that learning are they is this a unique vermont Program or is this adopted by many things it is it is out and about in the nation With varying degrees of implementation um I I think that um It's a senator gulick's question about change There are some early adopters some meeting adopters and some late adopters Of change and uh, I think what we're seeing is some people saying slow down Naturally, and I think that's what you're naturally hearing some of that. I think that's that's the noise. I hear This is let's stop take a look and see what's going on here. Thank you I found can just give us a sense of how this actually works. Is it you're just tested Over I mean, that's what's nice. Yeah, you know, but you represent teachers. Yeah, but I'm not a teacher So I don't know, you know, this is you're digging way to their their actual business of how they work day to day my understanding is It gives students more opportunity to Show mastery in a topic So might like you might be of course center You know, you might get it right off the bat and and need no five times additional work I on the other hand might have a little five or six or ten or twenty efforts, but in all seriousness, yeah That's helpful. It's designed so If you want a one-day assessment You take a one-day assessment. Yeah, you're one place everybody else is a different place Yeah, yeah, this is designed to make sure that we're all with that everybody in the classroom assuming we're classroom districts Yeah, or you're here gets to where the teacher thinks we all need to be Yeah, and we master the subject matter at that point may take you a week Two weeks need a lot longer all those sorts of things Okay, that's differentiated instruction right teachers are supposed to differentiate Yeah instruction to meet the needs of Individual students because we all arrive at the classroom door a little bit differently situated Not easy. Yeah Yeah, but it did go well in some places. I will say that yeah, and I would attribute that to pd Yeah, we're having a lot of build-up with yeah with staff. Yeah with families with students so that when they switch Everybody knew what was expected of them And that's probably a good model for most things that we do. Yeah when we make change Whether it's in a classroom or work setting or even in this building Can you just email Hayden a couple names of schools where you feel like you've heard it's gone really well So when we do get into it, we can just Hear from them as well Yeah, I mean, I can yeah, we can we heard from Megan Morgan I would say that I don't think she was I wasn't hearing Here and didn't hear your change but I assume she was not thrilled by it because that I thought you work here Yeah, you were here that day the column was Yeah, a couple other people also that would be great people that your members that really are concerned about it Well, we're going to look at language. We're going to move this in two weeks We'll have a vote to move it out, you know, go to a pros, but so sometimes the next couple weeks Kind of Anything else for mr. Fan Okay, great. Thank you. Perfect timing It's trickle is pal How are you? I'm all right. How are you good? Good to see you in senate education. I know it's very exciting Uh and mrs. Bishop. Do you want to both come up at the same time? No, no Okay, all right. Well, I mean we could whatever you want I have a couple should go together. Okay. That's all right. And then maybe we can join together. Yeah, that'd be great um So welcome to senate education. Yeah, we have your slide presentation This came out of uh some questions that we had from the college universities and then Senator weeks was asking some questions about the vermont brand And what we're wondering is uh with our friends in economic development and appropriations How are we marketing our I mean our interest is we'd love for this to be the place to go to college The state to go to college and stick around, you know Come and stay in vermont because you can get the options such a wide range middlebury uvm Goddard and everything in between our state colleges and so But related to that we thought we'd also just try to understand the brand a little bit I mean we we feel it we live it But we'd love to get your perspective and I serve to serve on senate ag in the morning Which also talks a lot about the brand as it relates to maple and and dairy and and just the landscape. So Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated. I would be happy to um, and so for the record My name is heather pallum. I am the commissioner of the department of tourism and marketing And again, thank you. I don't think I've spoken to this committee before so it's exciting Um, I did think if you don't mind I thought it would be helpful You have just a couple of slides in front of you Um, they're really just visual aids, but I just thought it might be helpful If I could just give you a little bit of context on the department tourism since I haven't been in the committee before I think might be helpful just to ground our conversation as we get further into the brand. So Um, you know our mission, you know broadly fully vicious Let me step back one second since I haven't met you folks before so I've been the commissioner for about three years Um Previous to that. I was the chief marketing officer for the state of Vermont. So I've actually been within the age to commerce for 10 years um chief marketing officer is Really an interim role that provides marketing expertise and communication support to other state agencies Whereas the department tourism it's much more outward facing promoting the states broadly So that's where I was just going to mention that so the department tourism marketing We are looking outside of our borders promoting the state for visitation and then also More recently I've expanded that role to relocation as well Um, but in terms of just when it comes to tourism just so folks know You know in typical year we welcome over 13 million visitors to the state and that adds up to 3.2 billion in economic activity So that's just some high level Facts for you guys to think about so that visitor spending supports 10 of our workforce So over 30 000 for monitors. Um, and that's about about the same amount of jobs as in manufacturing Um, so again just for context that you know tourism behind manufacturing is the second larger contributor out of state dollars Um, and bringing in 387 million in tax revenue And I just say that just again for context in time in terms of the Industry that we are supporting and the work that takes to support that industry Um, so, you know, I'm I guess one other point I would make just to Kind of bring on the point is that the visitor economy that we're supporting that reaches all corners of the state So I like to say that you know tourism is rural economic development You know because when visitors come here, they're not just staying at R.C. Resorts or you know at the lodge where they may literally be putting their head in the bed But they're going to a restaurant. They're going to a downtown They're buying gas at the you know local convenience store. Um, and that really does reach all corners of the state So in terms of just the unique impact that tourism has and the visitor economy I would say it can't really be understate center. Thank you. Jared. Did you say that? This is the second largest Income generator in the state from out of state out of state dollars out and what's the first manufacturing Yeah, so it is um, I would say not to be underestimated or Or taken for granted and I'm not suggesting that folks do but it has a huge impact on our state and again time percent of our workforce So, um, okay. Yeah, what's your budget? Uh, I was going to get to that our budget. Our base budget is 3.5 million dollars Um, so, you know our role Is to promote the state to to capture interest. Um, to Capture attention and you know creating just to fuel all that economic activity And so we work at the very top of the marketing funnel people sir think about money for, you know, we're trying to get people's attention Um, get them interested inspired and then they kind of work their way down Um, but we are not selling any particular Product or activity, but we're you know, we're selling the idea of Vermont Um, and so we focus on broad brand awareness campaigns Um, to keep filling that funnel with with new visitors and to you know, nurture that brand affinity to keep vermont's top of mind for folks Um, and then I would also just make the point that you know, we're here to kind of elevate brand experiences And we're here to kind of elevate brand experiences You know, we're here to kind of elevate brand experiences To a larger audience than any one entity or any one region could do on their own So we were really taking off those iconic brand experiences that other regions or other Attractions and so forth are creating and we're trying to get them in front of the largest audience possible Um, so I would say that when it comes to talking about the vermont brand It's important to remember that the brand doesn't come from the top down It really comes from the bottom up Um, so that you know when visitors come to vermont like every interaction they have Becomes part of the brand stuff, you know every time you hear vermont on the news where you see it in a movie or you know any Friends and family, you know when they talk about vermont all of that like the brand is that cumulative experience of all those touchpoints It's that sort of residual impression that you have in your head Of any product or place and it comes from all different areas So I just think it's important for us to remember that when we think about like people's experience with the brand It's not that it's like we are in control of that at the state level But it's it's everybody, you know, everybody is responsible for vermont brand It's every interaction that a visitor has when they're here That becomes part of their collective memory of what vermont is Um, but you know, we we then nurture that brand affinity and that might start when they're here at college You know, it might start when they're visiting friends or family or or on vacation So would you consider one of the bottom up elements to be universities? I would absolutely, but would it be reflected currently reflected in your branding? Well, it is some to some extent I would propose that it doesn't really matter where that first kernel of an idea comes from It's really more like what does that add up in a person's mind? So certainly we would hope that if folks are coming here to college, they have a positive experience Um, obviously positive for their, you know, for their career and their personal development But you know that they maybe they that's one of the reasons why they chose vermont locally for after recreation and so forth and so then we can Continue to kind of nurture that and hopefully keep them in the pipeline so to speak But to some extent I would say it doesn't really matter in terms of promoting visitation Um, or even relocation everything helps but that first there's like no wrong door. I think that way like it's it's If somebody comes here on vacation first or they come here to college first or they just come to a wedding here first You know, it's really that our job just to keep promoting vermont once they have that first And so, you know I guess I just wanted to just mention that, you know, we do see that the tourism industry has a really special part in supporting the brand I mean Very hospitality. So I'm making people feel welcome. It's you know, sharing what it is that we love about vermont with everybody else Um, you know, it's that it's supporting that tourism infrastructure Whether it's again, it's like our local restaurants or so forth that you know, when we support that infrastructure that's supporting Kind of fabric that we all enjoy as well Or I like to say that, you know, we want to go out to dinner on a special occasion You know, it takes out of state dollars You know a lot of times to keep that restaurant operating here around so it's available when us as residents want to Appreciate that asset as well Um, I did include in the packet and I don't know if it's great enough But just some example of our creative just to give you guys, you know, some idea, you know Travels certainly kind of sets the tone Um, and you know, when we you know, the current campaign running is called a place all its own And I can just you know, reach you one of our campaign lines is vermont is a place unlike any other Where life is better when you slow down look around and simply take notice A vermont can inspire or store and bring you to a whole new state Um, and so we don't have to you know, I can talk for hours about Creative and techniques and something that I know that's not but I just wanted to give you a taste of that And then if you do look at the pdf, there's a link to a video that we um helped create last summer, which I just think it's you know, it's always easy, you know, other people can say things better than you can sometimes um, and it's just a really interesting story about A family who was doing this cross-country adventure. Um, the father he is actually from vermont when they came back home Just what it meant to come back home and to share the you know, vermont experiences that he remembered as a kid with his children and so forth So just as a flavor, I just wanted to include that So then back to the back to the budget and I'll kind of wrap up here because I know we want to get back that's time and so forth but Yes, our base budget is 3.5 million and that is all in salaries and so forth So that gives us about 2 million dollars in terms of you know, kind of working capital for paid advertising in a year And you know tourism is a competitive business. So just again for context New Hampshire's budget is 10 million and manes is 17 million ours again is 3.5. Yeah um, and You know, as you can imagine it costs us the same amount of money to put an ad in Boston as it does for New Hampshire or Maine so Uh, our base funding does keep us at a competitive disadvantage. Maybe we certainly do the best that we can with that Um, and again, I know we're not talking appropriations here. So especially you know, we you know, we're talking with appropriations And we're talking with economic development folks and we're talking in this edge in education We do I mean to be honest. We've got some heavy things going on here not only with higher ed but we there is a bill that would Change even school choice in this state dramatically And you know, so all these things really are issues because they're also all economic development issues And I think in this, you know, you look at the kingdom in particular You know why certain people move to certain towns, you know, Jane Kishel Might tell you why people move to St. John. I mean all those things are definitely interconnected They are and we we're trying to communicate with our colleagues, you know More effectively, I'd say What we're hearing music to my ears and I think that's great and just understanding, you know Kind of where tourism fits in and how it can feel that role of continuing to tell the state's story. It's really different ways Um, I mean I mentioned at the beginning, you know our our charge I mean it was always there but like we have been spending more and more time thinking about relocation and how do we You know knowing that folks have this continuum they go through if they think about relocating to a place It is going to be based on usually it's based on a an affinity that was there that was then nurtured I mean some people might just come out of the blue but more likely they've had some experience from on and they They want to know what it's all about Um, we have never had a budget to do that And so actually in the governor's recommended budget this year There is a base increase for the Department of Tourism to actually put more money into relocation marketing So again thinking about it in the context, you know of everything you guys are talking about Um, we recognize that your marketing is all about repetitions. It's about touch points about staying top of mind It takes money. It takes money of our concerted period of time um, and so, you know, we You know relocation workforce all these things it is so important and so Let's what I try to say is like I can show you what we've done for tourism. We've spent generations investing in tourism You know, and it it takes time to to create that like again that procedural idea folks find And if we want to expand that to relocation, we're we're all in like we would love to do that but it takes time and it takes resources and You know, the reason why someone comes here on vacation is not necessarily the same reason they come here to relocate There might be parts of it, but it's it's different. It's potentially different audience. It's maybe different tactics It's not like you can just add more one one more thing on but you know Our higher education system our education system in general. Yes, that is part of our story That's part of what we have to offer. That's part of quality of life that we you know are promoted folks um But how we talk about that and how broadly we can talk about that it is a resource driven conversation not that to say Yeah, just just to give you an example Everywhere you go in the city of austin and a lot of cities in the united states you see a southern new hampshire university sign Their budget is I think I mean it is It's millions Just from marketing. Yeah, and I think our state colleges have like, you know, I you know, it's that kind of just difference. It's it's huge. So Um senator uh, do it Thank you chair. Yeah, we are working on a construction a school construction bill Because one of our thoughts is that if we can redo our school buildings across the state And really form an incredibly strong and robust public school system It will really draw people in to live And work here, which I know is different from tourism But in terms of bringing people in and keeping them. That's what we're hoping for and I was I I think it was wonderful and I will also say that you know one of the best forms of marketing is to improve the product So you're improving the product. That's wonderful. But if nobody knows that then You're just not you're just not doing as much as you're ready to do to get to that final end point, right? Once we start the building, we will that make sure that we have a social media campaign that Talks about it Yeah, yeah I'm still trying to get over the shock of your budget given What we spent on our congress person's uh, recent campaign and bloodscrew kids campaign It's just you know, it just pales with hers Anyway My question still make an amendment for the VA head You want to know I think we're already 90 million over where we are Well, I would be I would be remiss in not mentioning that Um Coming out of the pandemic there was a part of ARPA funding that was specific to travel tours amount of recreation um, so the state is getting Uh, a big number 10 million dollars to support Travel tours amount of recreation in the next few years for marketing or for Marketing we cannot use it for relocation So that's one reason why we're not coming asking for an increase in tourism funding as we have done many years before um So it gives us an opportunity To really show what we can do when we have a budget because you know, we know those sort of chicken and egg conversations Like what would you do? Absolutely Can show you this is what we can do. This is how the science of marketing works You know, this is how we can set metrics and benchmarks and really show that return on investment Um, so the conversation may not be today about tourism funding But it is never going to go away and there's never it's never too soon To start that conversation really think about what does it what will it take? For us to really nurture this industry that is bringing in So much revenue that then is available to this body to fund other initiatives Yeah, it's been money to make money. Yeah, so my question. Yeah, what platforms are you on in your campaign? We have a huge a huge mix I would say so those are just a couple examples of digital advertising So digital advertising is, you know banner ads that pop up when you're doing everything else we do online You know search it search marketing you type into google and this is in this social media Um, you know when we can we do Social media just being so we think even So when you I was seven weeks is on tiktok for example, could he? So I think social media is both Just keeping a presence there. So we talked about earned owned and paid media So owned media is the things that we say about ourselves. So that would be on social media That would be our website. It's where we control the message Earn media is what other people say about us So we're also going to nurture pr and you know make sure that we're you know bringing journalists here things like that And then there's paid media which is we pay people to say things about us So when it comes to social media that's both earned excuse me both owned is what we're saying You know, we're keeping a good presence out there where we're Spreading our message, you know officially and otherwise and then you know, we can also like boost that message to reach a greater audience um So within paid tactics social media is part of paid, you know, we also do you know video pre-roll connected tv Those kind of paid advertising, you know, I mean print is not dead regional travel publications and then online travel platforms You know when we had the budget we do do out of home We were able to do a campaign this summer in the new york city market That was um partially to promote tourism and also partially to promote the new line extension of the amtrak train to berlinton um And you know, we have done some The new york market is a great one for us because we're not competing as heavily with fawston because we're just that which We're closer from new york So it's just a great way for us to make impression um And I just I just throw that in there. I would say another really big part of what we do is sponsored content So what that is is that we work with other publishers to write stories about us So for instance this last summer we worked with outside magazine and their family brands includes backpacker finny daily overjournal and so forth So, you know, we're working with other publishers to create stories about them off This bishop want to come on up and You can state this column that everyone views Right Betsy bishop, I'm with the remark chamber of commerce good to meet some of you I haven't had the opportunity and some old faces that I uh enjoying working with so thanks for having us You know, this is it's an interesting conversation thinking about tourism marketing thinking about the small budget I'm gonna start There's so much to talk about here, but let's I I'm gonna try to turn the conversation from the tourism space more to the space around workforce and Bringing people to live and work here to go to college here Uh at the beginning of the session, we all received an email from us with our Top three priorities, and I'm sure along with everybody else's you read them and committed them to memory Just as a refresher in case you didn't um, you know, our top priority is housing Uh workforce and advancing vermont's economy. Those are the three things that we're working on probably forever Not just this year. Um, but around the workforce piece, you know You all have heard the demographic story of vermont that we have an aging population That due to the pandemic we have seen a huge increase in the amount of folks not participating in the workforce in vermont And then we have a huge workforce problem here Usually when I say that to any group of people Somebody's handshoots up and says, you know what we should do If we could just keep more of our college kids here, it would solve the problem, right? And this is where this attaches to this conversation that you're having Um that myth has been dispelled There are not enough college students in this state to fix the workforce gap Even if you forced all of them to stay about half of them stay Even if the other half stay it's no it's only five thousand the other half is only five thousand So it's just not going to fix our workforce problems Kind of said that I don't think anybody really wants to force anybody to do anything in that in that realm You know, so we have we have these discussions Frequently, how do we market all the good things that we're doing in vermont? And we think about that in the tourism space because tourism is the only place the state has put marketing dollars into In a significant amount of money and sustained long-term commitment to show the results that commissioner pallum just talked about The budget three and a half million is poultry The amount of employees you have is seven eight nine Or more maybe we actually have 12 would include the cmo's office So so 12 employees to do that work To think about a sustained effort for attracting people to come here to live and work That's what we're talking about come here to live for four years in college come here to live here For all the things that we need to do We think that doing that in a You know Yes going to the appropriations committee and asking them for money this year next year and every other year for eternity If we're talking about making a reputation for vermont as a great place to live because we have a great public school system You can spend all the money you want on that You can have all the the beautiful schools you want But if you don't tell a single soul, they will never know and you will be sitting here wondering Why didn't we spend all that money thinking people were going to talk here? I am in a conversation in almost every committee in this in this building about this You know that's a we just passed an aspirational goal on child care last year to have this 10 Percent so nobody spends more than 10 percent in the lead up to that conversation The conversation was if we pass that people will flock here because of that My answer is not if you don't tell them They're not going to flock here We've done some amazing things to work on climate change in this building That we accept goals. We are working toward goals vermont is a leader in that space. We're a leader in Social justice in environmental Ethic work ethic We're a leader in all of these spaces We talk a really a lot about it amongst ourselves and we love it. That's why we're here But we're not doing a good job of telling other people it takes money and long-term commitment Um, so we have asked For to start to think about adding to the department of tourism and marketing budget a million dollars to try to work on that Because if we just ask the department of tourism To dilute their message and talk about child care and climate change and colleges and anything else It it won't work. That's not what building a brand is We need to build a brand to have vermont be a place that people want to come to Not just for four days not just for a long weekend, but for a lifetime And we saw a little spark of that right during the pandemic. We saw some of that We need to think about bringing more people here people overall But that's specifically people who want to work in our workforce for all of those things Thank you. That's you being here. Um, and thank you chair, uh What was my question would be um, it's coming back to me Um rankings we do well on a lot of rankings it seems or or we have in the past I know right now we're on some rankings that aren't very good But do you find that that is a good way of telling our story or getting our message out? You know, if we were to commit dollars and a commitment to it, I have no doubt that some marketing genius Maybe that would be commissioner pelham and her team Would be able to figure out what would be the most compelling story to do the things that we want to do You know rankings are funny. I can find as many rankings that say bad things about us and some can that say good things I'm fond of thinking that we're the healthiest state in the smartest state You know all these things. I'm sure somebody can can do that and find bad rankings You know if you're thinking about what makes a person move from point A to point B It doesn't happen by seeing one thing and going Go anywhere outside of the state and ask people tell people you're from Vermont. What do they say? Ear maple maple skiing progressive cheese Bernie Sanders This is years in the making and this is our brand. These are all things we want to embrace They're all good things but what you rarely hear is a work opportunity or You know that those types of things and in order to put that on somebody's radar It's going to take an effort to do that and I think that we have those achievements You you folks have worked in this this building and passed laws every year to do good things for Vermonters If we could only take your achievements and elevate them to a place where people outside of this state would know that I think that's a worthy goal And I think that there's there's an opportunity to do that and I do think that it would be a Compliment to our tourism message. It's not like these things are different The audiences are slightly different How many of you have have met a tourist or had a guest stay at your house or or whatever and they're like Oh, I love it here, right? It was so cute. And then they often say like what do these people do here? Right, that's always like once that's where you want to capture them They came here. They had a good experience here They think like could I live there? Like haven't we all traveled and thought thought that right? I come home to vermont. So I I can't possibly think that but The point is that you we don't have an answer for them Whether that's a tourist or somebody who spent four years at college and maybe they left After college and went somewhere, but they still sort of had that heart string for vermont. How do we pluck on that? And say Since you left since you have this route in vermont, you know, maybe that's a summer camp route Maybe it's a college route. There's lots of different things people move. It takes it takes a huge effort They're not just flinging up and moving and moving and moving. It's a big effort It takes time and thought they move for family number one Some sort of route or connection They do move for climate, but like warmth not climate change, although that may be changing They do look for an affordable place to live But they also want to be in a place that they feel Sort of that camaraderie. What did you say? Commissioner appellant Her line she was reading her line from the from the power point and said it's a whole new state It sort of leads you to think like a whole new state of mind But a whole new state that could sort of be very complementary into the space to Recruit people to let people know that vermont wants more people We need more people to build houses. We need more people to go to college We need more people to join in climate solutions, but we have to In the workforce, but we need to tell them that we want them here center weeks I just had a question going back to tourism for a second. I don't want to jump So i'm just wondering if the department of tourism maintains a metric of I'm thinking of it as like a saturation point of hotels Theaters Restaurants resorts like do we do we track like how saturated we are each year on? on tourists coming in and And occupying all those available spaces all those available opportunities. Is that something that's You know, I would say there is data available for for instance the logic industry. We can get you know occupancy rates and so forth Um, not that you could but that you do Well, I guess my answer to that saying that there is not that kind of data available In terms of like how you know helpful is any restaurant let alone all the restaurants and let alone how that Transites up to us. We just don't have those mechanisms in place so You know, we have anecdotal information We you know, we work without the community level of time to understand, you know, what's new what's coming Places opening pieces clothing closing, but You know, when we're looking at metrics, we're really trying to make sure that we are spending the dollars that we have very wisely So looking at, you know, return on investment that way, you know, we're looking at just the marketing mesh like how many people are we reaching You know, how long do they how much time do they spend with the brand, you know When I mentioned the sponsor content, you know a display I'd make splash on your screen if you even look at it for a second or two But if you're reading an article and it took you five minutes to read that article We've captured your attention. I mean you're thinking about Vermont for, you know, five plus minutes That's a lot of time to make an impression And there is um on the um, certainly in the lodging industry. We've seen quite a few Building starts in lodging in Chittenden County and each one of those they do an effort of looking at sort of their competitors and that um that occupancy rate And uh, it's it's a pretty high occupancy rate So I think that that's something that certainly the lodging industry is quite Quite knowledgeable about and they do share that Can we get you back anytime? I just yeah, that would be great. We would love to continue this We're going to put some language like lean the miscellaneous education bill related to marketing and we'll talk to Senator Kitchell and senators, uh senator rump-hensfield about this. Sure one thought is um over the last two years three years now with covid there was uh Funds being put in various places to help businesses certainly in the first year or two when they were closed, right? And most of those funds have been Sent out to the various eligible Businesses To the extent that there's any funds left over in those business programs We have been asking that it gets redeployed to business programs As opposed to redeploy to other needs in state government And I think we're starting to see that come out again And if that happens finding one million dollars from those unused business funds this would In our view Look at that as helping businesses to find more people more workers Sam we Just a uh Just an aside If manufacturing is number one and tourism is number two Where would higher education be is that is that? I think we're third Do you yeah Okay, well there you go, there's a synergy. Yeah to get you know, it's not marketing support I think I I think I'd have to look at that. I'd love to get back to you. It may be that The tech industry seems to cut through lots of those industries as well. So there's um there's a There's a lot of folks when we look at that but one third of you know, when you think about the 30,000 people working In tourism or the 30,000 people working in manufacturing. That's uh, I don't know those numbers And actually you were talking about Bringing in out of state dollars, right? Yeah, and that was both. Yeah, that's not what I was referring to Right. So there's different methods, right? Like how many people work in the industry? How many out of state dollars are brought in and I think that's right? So that's Okay, whatever whatever is necessary to clear apples apples Yeah As we're concluding the conversation I just want to throw the point out there that You know when the very first time I came to Vermont was you know, we were Traveling through the state making a few stops but spending the day For two days actually in Burlington and at uvm Going around the town and then on our way back down stopping in a few different places But now if you want to uvm and spending some time there just visiting people and then checking out the rest of the state on the way back It there was this moment in my mind where I was like, all right, I don't know how But I'm gonna find a way to end up in Vermont. That's great. That's really great. That is exactly what we're talking about You got that like Yeah, I love it. You you established that route and how do we get you know, when you think about the 13 million visitors that come here every year I know without asking and surveying every single one of them. They have this great experience here I could see Senator Hashim in a commercial Saying just that message Perfect, perfect But I think my point is like that that you you Given them the root of that the touch of that with tourism How do you turn that and capitalize that and turning them into a Vermonter? And letting them know that we want them to be more than just a tourist We're not telling them that we should We have to leave it there. I'm afraid that thank you so much our office And I'd love for you to walk me to our office to talk a little bit more about that. Okay. I think towards us your sample