 All right, podcasters round table, round 119. What do your show notes look like? Are they super long? Do you only write a couple of sentences? Do you not do show notes at all? Where do you post those show notes? I need three tags, you put them in your RSS tags, do you put them on your website? All these interesting things, but I think actually we're gonna dive more into how do they actually display on where you have your podcast? But we're gonna dive into that more stories. Behind the scenes, we did restart this. We never do that here, but we just, I'm bumbling things around. So we did restart it. And Dave, co-host, welcome to the round table, again. Yes, glad to be here. I am of the camp of, I occasionally will write a book for show notes. I've been on kind of a kick lately, but we will be talking about how they look like caca in many places. I was gonna say the more the merrier, but we shall see. All right, and new round table or Sevilla, welcome. Thank you, I appreciate that. What's your podcast? My podcast is childless, not by choice. It just celebrated three years in July. So approaching episode 100 in November, well, this month. Oh, your high school diploma. Your podcast equivalent of the high school diploma is what I like to say, episode 100. That is very cool. Are you gonna do anything special? I'm always curious how podcasters celebrate that 100. Well, I've already recorded my episode. I got four women from my platform to come on with me one night and we talked, one of them was in the UK. Rest of them were scattered around the country. So we just kind of got the time together and talked for about an hour. Very cool. Well, pre-congrats, since it's already been recorded. Thank you, thank you. It's always a cool moment. All right, so let's dig in. I think actually we will hold that show. Daniel is gonna join us. So we will hold the show notes topic because he's, this is something Daniel, I know Daniel's definitely taken deep dive into it. Of course, it's Daniel. And him and I have gone back and forth more than once about show notes and how they display and ID3 art and all that stuff. But so let's look at something else. Let's start off, Sevilla, with your other one here. It says I Heart Podcast Awards. What is that about? Apparently they have their first awards coming up sometime soon. I think it's January. I'm not looking at anything else right now but I think it's in January and they're building it, it seems, as if it's like a new thing to have podcasting awards. So when I saw this originally, I saw someone tweeted out and they called them out. They're saying, hey, do you think it's a good idea to represent yourself as the first podcast awards when there's been podcast awards pretty much every year since podcasting has existed? We are intimately familiar. Dave's Hall of Famer, which is part of the podcast awards. But I went and looked and I wasn't sure if it felt like the announcement they made, it said the first ever. And I felt like they just left out I Hearts because everything else I found was the first ever I Heart Podcast Awards. But did you know, did anyone respond to this stuff? Are they actually holding themselves out as being the first podcast awards or is it the first I Heart Podcast Awards? I wish I could remember because I actually heard an ad for it on the radio. Of course. Then that made it sound like the first ever podcast awards. Yeah, that did too. Yeah. And I was like, eh, okay. I wish I should pull up that tweet. It's too buried now because I am curious if they ever responded and unlikely that they responded to it. I have it on my Instagram at podcast helper. There's a picture. I was in San Francisco just as total aside, but I saw the I Heart building and I took a picture and I made a joke that I was so hard to get into I Heart that I drove up to the front door through my podcast in and drove off. Cause you remember back in the day, Dave, back in the day, it was like, how do you get on I Heart and it was just a pain. And it's easier now, right? I mean, you just simply submit through, well, if you're on a, well, that sigh makes me think maybe it's not but on Lipson it's pretty easy. Well, first they make you wait. I want to say six weeks. So they kind of make sure that, you know, you're going to actually continue podcasting. And right now when you submit, you're gonna- Wait, wait, wait. You need to wait six weeks of your show being new or six weeks after the point you submit, even if you have a hundred episodes. No, boy, that's a great question. So you don't know. So that's fine. I honestly don't know. Yeah, but I think it's six months. Yeah, cause if you start with like Lipson and you've been doing it for two years, that's a great question. But usually it's six weeks from when you like sign up. So I don't know if we could reach out to iHeart and say, hey, can we waive the six weeks waiting thing? But the thing that's kind of weird is you wait that time period, then you submit and you're probably gonna wait at least another six weeks to get actually added to iHeart, which is kind of like, if it was gonna take that one to get submitted, why not just submit it when I first joined? And if I'm still there when you actually get to it kind of thing, but- Yeah, that's a pain. The radio industry is again a little brash. I think there was recently, I don't know if we talked about it on the last roundtable, but how the radio said, we're kind of here. We're gonna take over now. There was an article like that. I don't know who wrote it, but- I forget the guy, but it was kind of like, hey, thanks for getting it this far. We got it from here. Yeah, it's like- And now they have, now this radio company has a turned podcast or added podcasting is now the first podcast award. I am curious if that is, if they are holding themselves out that way or they've just misworded it or what's going on there. Yeah, it's one of those things I've always tried to, because I know originally, I mean, if we go way back in the day, podcasting was kind of like, we're gonna stick it to the man and we're gonna be anti-radio because- It's pirate radio, man. Pirate radio. And then as things have gone on, I'm like, you know what? I think we could probably learn something from these folks. There's a lot of radio guys that's like, here in the next 8.6 seconds, I need you to be funny and entertaining while we tie both your hands behind your back and blindfold you, because they have such constraints on their time and what they can say and what they can do. And so I was like, let's give them a bit of a break because I'm sure there's stuff we can learn from them. And I think there are things that they can learn from us. But with this whole like, all right, you guys sit at the kids table. We've got it now. I don't know, it's in, they're great people like Seth Ressler who does some things with Jacob's media. And obviously, Eric K. Johnson who works for iHeart. You know, there are plenty of radio peeps that, you know, have embraced podcasting. I think it's just some people that are like, hey, look at this fun toy. Well, to come in and take over. Ty Benden in the chat asks, which podcast awards is the most meaningful to podcasters you know, the holy grail? And I would say, I feel like there's only, has there ever really been, so I would say, well, gosh, where is it now? It's the podcast, is Todd's back to doing it, right? Cause it was that podcast movie. This thing has moved all over the place. But there has been sort of a, Todd Cochran has been, he's had the podcast awards forever for a long time. And that's always sort of been, I think in our circle has been the award, right? Because we know until it was gamed and all that stuff. But that has been the most consistent offering for such a long time. Yeah. And it's, it's sometimes had a home and sometimes did not, but Todd always, if it didn't have a place to earn an event to do it at, Todd always just did it online. And then I know podcast movement had some sort of award in that. They bought the podcast awards from Todd and ran it. Yeah. That was New Media Expo. No, and podcast movement. Really? Okay. That made me not a first, but I think the podcast, anyways, I think it's always, I think it's always had this sort of similar DNA, but just answering Todd's question, I feel like for me that is, Yeah. That is kind of the source for the nerdier of us. I feel like those, the people who know of those awards are the people who've been in podcasting for just forever. And so it has a lot of clout to it based on, based on who has run it, how it was run, who has won awards, who has actually shown up. Well, that's a different issue. It was hard to get people to show up, even get awards sometimes, but. And it might be your culture too, because I mean, there's the Latin podcast awards, there's the Australian podcast awards, so there's a couple of different chapters. Yeah. And I don't know about you, I will take an award from anywhere at any time. Who was it given to me? Tavila, have you participated in the awards or do you know of any other awards? No, I only know about podcast movement and my only participation in that was 2017, when I did a voiceover. Oh, cool. Yeah, Jared asked me to do, was that when they were in Anaheim? Good question. I am so bad with time. I think it was 2017, they were in Anaheim and Jared asked me to do voiceover for one of the awards. So do we know how you get nominated for an iHeart award? I think they've already picked, it sounded like on the radio. Are there independent pod, is it from their own catalog or is it just the big names? I haven't even gone to the page, but on the radio, it sounded like they had already picked the top 10 and then you got to pick the winner. Right, that's what I'm looking at it right now and that's what they did. They have different, so it's probably the five in each category or so and then you choose. And it's probably the same this American life, Joe Rogan. Mark Maron maybe. So I think, I mean, so, Sevilla your original question, like in the form here, I always have sort of the what's the main takeaway? And you said, should Indie podcasters be okay with iHeart sounding like they discovered podcasting awards if they included some Indie podcast? So do you, I assume those are all big top 20 type podcasts. The Indie, you don't see any, what we would consider Indie, anyone who's producing a podcast that maybe a thousand or 2,000 or even 5,000 people are listening to? Well, I mean, as I look at the list because I looked at it before, I came on like a couple of days ago and Joe Rogan is on there. Right. No names stick out that you don't know or haven't heard of I assume? No, I mean, but I don't know if like two dope queens, I don't know if they're Indie or not. I just, I've heard of them. They got big. So I don't know. I mean, I don't know where, I think they're on podcast one and I want to say they have an HBO show. Yeah, they're huge now. They came up through, I don't think they were huge in the beginning. They did work their way through being huge, but I'm just curious if there's any podcasts on there that aren't currently huge. And this is a different thing, right? Like what does huge mean? But in the podcast awards, you will definitely run into categories with podcasts that you've never heard of and you'll go check it out and say, oh, maybe I like this show, maybe I don't, but it's not filled with the top 20. So, you know, it's interesting. I mean, it's just another award show. I don't know how much value I place in those awards. It's always nice to win, sure. I mean, the good news is you don't have to pay. Like I think if you want a Webby award, it's like 300 bucks. Yeah. Really? No, that's kind of different. Yeah. So I think that, you know, we should stick it to them a little bit and make sure that they are not claiming to be the first podcast awards. Yeah. Because when I see best history podcast, and you got Dan Carlin, but then I see lore and revisionist history, stuff you missed in his, like to me, I would, I don't consider lore history. Right. And I'm like, we gotta get Ben Franklin's world in there. Yeah. I mean, come on. Award-winning, award-winning, Ben Franklin's. Yeah. Awesome. All right, well, let's try to keep them honest. If you guys out there listening, if you're on Twitter and you see them claiming to be the first, make sure that the original podcast awards, is it podcastawards.com? Is that still Todd's site? It's a podcastawards.com is Todd's site. The iHeart one is just iHeart.com slash podcast-awards. Yeah. And that's, it'll take you right there. Cause if I saw an indie show on here, I would definitely vote, oh my God, anything that's like definite indie, I'm voting for. But I would be interested to see most of these that I see reply all. Yeah. And these things you can't win in these projects. Like Todd, it doesn't matter what kind of rules you make, how well you run it. There's always complaints and then people complain about how things are selected and how they're voted on. Like awards are a hot mess from what I understand. So that's why I take them with a grain of salt. Yeah. When I saw this, I was like, oh cool. Let, seriously, Todd has got death threats. From the podcast. I know, it's ridiculous. Oh my God. It's ridiculous. Like death threats for a podcast award. Come on. Oh my. That's a little crazy. They're keyword stuffers. Same people. Did we have something about keyword stuffing? I think we do. Daniel's going to bring in a story about that. Dave, why don't you grab one of your? Yeah, I will actually now make sure I describe. Are you going with the Google one? Nope. I was going to go with the, because everybody's probably wondering what this is. There's a bit of code that you can put right into your show notes that I was told would put some sort of dollar sign or something into your show notes. And it's for what you do is you put this code in, then you put a link to your Patreon or to your PayPal or some way it's a bit of code. And I did it and all it really did for me at least and it only shows in certain apps. So I'm using Overcast. And all it did is I put a link that said, testing the payment link for next week show and then put a link to my Patreon. It turns the link green. But other than that, I expected, I thought it was going to put some cool little like dollar sign or something like that. It's great for cash, Dave. It's even on this. Yeah. So to me, I was kind of like, all right. Well, so like, did we really get anything new? So wait a minute, where did you put that code? That is in my show notes. I thought you said this had to do with adding a, Oh, adding show notes. Don't even put into your show notes. I don't get it. That was, that's exactly what I did. That's a link. Yeah. It's not working in Overcast. I mean, I thought, I thought in the description actually, I thought that somewhere else, it's supposed to have a little dollar sign. Like this is code that Marco implemented, right? For Overcast specifically. Yeah. And that's where I'm like, I just followed. I got this off of a podnews.net. And he said, here's all you do. Put this code in your show notes. And I did and it turned the link green. But I don't see, at least in Overcast, if there's a little dollar sign somewhere. Did you check Marco? He's always good. If anything's implemented, it would be on his. That's true. I should have gone to, what is it? Marco.com. I have no idea what his podcast is. You should check his podcast inside of Overcast and see how that looks for sure. Yeah. Cause I just know at this point doing just this code, it turns the link green, but I was kind of like, I might be missing something. Cause this will be old news in two minutes. Why do we care? I guess everybody's all looking for, and this is one of the things I talked about as a mistake that podcasters are make. They're trying to do fund crowding, which is they want to do, get the funds before they get the crowd. And I'm like, I'm all about, hey, if you want to make money with your podcast, by all means have fun, but you can't get funds from three people. Dony buttons are traditionally hard to. Yeah. I mean, you could always make them a link. I thought this was going to somehow put like a dollar sign or something cool. There is supposed to be something like that. I'm pretty sure. Again, I would look up. It may be operator error in this case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I thought I had to do, I think I had to put an RSS feed. So that's what I thought. I tried it once before where I put it as like an extra code, like actually in the feed, like not in the show notes, like in the actual feed. And I looked and looked and looked and didn't see a thing happen. That's when I saw that article from James and I was like, oh, he says, just put it in the show notes. And I'm like, okay. So I grabbed it, put in my link and was like, okay, it turned to green. So there may be more to the story than at least what was on James site. Cause it, or I'm putting it in the wrong spot or something like that. But cool. So Villa, do you have, do you monetize in any way? I had a sponsor. So I'm always looking for more sponsors because the sponsor that I had in it, it's just a temporarily not happening right now. But that sponsorship covered everything. So did it not work for them or is it just something that's on hold? I don't, you know. It's on hold. They're on hold. It's not me, it's them. God, it's not, it's not me. It's you. They're making. This is, I gotta tell you, Dave, it's been great having you as a co-host. Right. Really, again, it's just not you. It's me. No, they're making some changes. So, you know, everybody's on hold. Gotcha. Cool. Well, that's good. Do you do any kind of fund crowding? Do you do any kind of ask for donations or Patreon or anything like that? I have Patreon and I have a couple of patrons and I do ask. Well, I ask for money on my episodes. I just sell them point blank and, you know, episode nine. Doesn't work. No, not, I mean sort of because I have a second patron and that patron I actually met. I stayed a day extra. Well, I stayed more than a day extra after this past podcast movement and met up with two of my followers and listeners and one of them became a patron. So, it's good when you can get to meet people that are listening, then they're more apt is what I'm seeing. But I've also had listeners send, one listener sent me money from, gosh, what country is it? The Netherlands or someplace up there. She sent me money to buy microphones. I was just like, you know, I guess she, her, the way she heard it come across was, I need money to buy microphones when all I said was, if you send money or whatever you send, we'll go towards buying microphones. And so she's PayPal me some money to buy microphones and a microphone bag and all that stuff. Nice. So yeah, you know. So you can see it, any call to action is hard to get people to take action on. So like this is not quit your day job type money, right? Oftentimes it does, it helps support. A lot of times it's almost like a thank you. People give money, they appreciate your content. It's not even, you know, patron, you know, if you work it enough, it's if you have enough, it can become recurring income. But most of the time it might cover cost and might be able to buy you new gear that you might need. Dave, do you have Patreon? Do you do a call out in your show for Patreon? Yeah, what I do is in the middle of my show, I have a tier where if you pay me $20 a month, I will literally- I usually have a tier during your show as well, but it's just, I'm like, I gotta go. But it's, if you give me $20 a month, I will list your show on your website during the middle of the show. And then if it's $10 a month, I'll put you on the website, but you don't get a mention. And then once a month, I basically read the whole list. You're doing the no agenda model there, trying to- I'm doing the no agenda model. How's that working out? I mean, do people get annoyed that they have to hear a list of people during the episode? Because that's new, that's not something, you have a lot of episodes, you've established a format as much as you mix it up, but how's that going? I think, because it's always been there. The minute Patreon came on, that was like the thing. It's like, hey, once at the beginning of the month, like this Saturday, I'll be reading the entire list. And what I try to do is, where when it's like just the $20 people, I might say, hey, it's Ray Ortega from Podcaster Studio, find him at podcasterstudio.com, and then I'll vamp. Great guy, love him. He's awesome out there in California getting tan. When I'm reading everybody's list, it's like so-and-so from such-and-such, so-and-so, and I'm just blowing through the list. All right, so I'll put you to the test a little bit. Is that value? The guy always talks about providing value. No, it's delivering value to the people that gave me value. I'm giving them a shout-out. And some might say it shows my audience that I care for my audience, but it is one of those things. That's the problem with no agenda. If you're very successful at that, you could really then ruin your show that used to give value, except for this five-minute spot in the middle where they just read a bunch of things. And that's why those guys on no agenda, I think you have to give them $50 or more to get mentioned. So. Yeah, it's tough. So what do you, I don't know, is Patreon worth it then, I guess? It is for me. I mean, if I were to grab a calculator, because I'm right now, I'm over $400, I think, for the month. And if I divide that by, say, $1,200, I think I'd get 300 downloads in that episode. It's not a ginormous show. It's 33 cents. A download times 1,000 is, no, that can't be right. I'm not making 333, there's a decimal. I think I'm making $33 per 1,000 CPM. That's about right. That's normal. I'll take that. Yeah, that's good. It's definitely better than a poke in the eye. So, and I deeply appreciate it. I mean, that basically, a big chunk of that goes to basically pay the taxes for the school podcast. Yeah. So. Hey, Daniel, welcome. Thank you, Dave. You are actually making almost $400 CPM. Yeah, that would be right. Okay. That's a big swing. Congrats. Take that podcast one. Cause I looked at it and it was like $333. And I'm like, that can't be right. I'm like, yeah, actually it is. I'd have to go look at what my numbers are. But nonetheless, I'm not making $1.50 from dynamic ad insertion, which is what I've seen lately. And I just went, wow, that's bad. Wait, how did that? I was sort of falling along. What's the CPM, Daniel? Because is he, what are your down, you're saying, how much are you making a month, Dave? Well, I gotta go look now. Cause it's almost a 400 a month. Yeah, but that would mean you're only getting a thousand downloads per episode? No, no, I'm getting like probably 400 downloads an episode. Okay, I'm making, I'll see you now. What show is this? I'm waiting for, I just lost a patron podcast. This is Ask the Podcast. I thought, I'm like, there's no way this doesn't make sense for a school of podcasting. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, that makes sense. All right. Yeah. Okay, that's why you're making so much. Cool. Wait, do you do Patreon for all your shows? No, but if you listen to the, if you listen to the podcasters round table and wanna go to askthepodcastcoach.com slash awesome, you can be some supporter. But no, I usually, I have people on occasion, they'll graduate, shall we say, from the school of podcasting. And they're like, I feel bad cause I still wanna support you. And I'm like, well, I do have a patron account and they'll come over and, you know, give me five, 10 bucks or whatever it is. It's that whole law of reciprocity, value for value thing. So. Cool. All right. Hey, Daniel. Again, welcome. Let's go to the cover story. Savilla, why don't you lead us into this how podcast show notes display in 19 different apps. That's where I got the title from. I kind of twisted it. I said, how do your show notes look? So this is open. And this is the round table, we'll open the conversation. If you wanna talk, we wanna talk about actually writing show notes and then there's this sort of more technical thing. And I was, in the lead up, I was, Daniel, I was mentioning how you and I have gone back and forth several times testing like, where does this artwork show up? Does it show up in this app? Or do you put it in the, what tag and all this? So good stuff. All right. So. All right. Anyways, let us know, Savilla, what is this about? Well, I, the article I read, which I'm a big show notes person. And- What does that mean? You mean you write a lot of show notes? I write a lot. I mean, my- Are you transcribing essentially your show or? No, I basically, I'm just writing it, literally writing, well, typing it out. So it's like a blog post. Right. Which is- Which is a podcast's blog post with audio attached? Right, which is my first, because I don't have that podcast produced anymore, but my first podcast producer, who I had from almost day one, told me to write my show notes like a blog. Cool. And S-E-O-I's my show notes, which has always been hard for me to do because my subject matter is a heart matter. So it's been a battle. But anyway, I, so I write my show notes are like a blog. And there are a couple, well, maybe a good page long, maybe a page and a half. And the person I look up to when it comes to show notes is one, Elsie Escobar, because I think she writes the best show notes. So I have been kind of like just learning from her on how to write them, you know, with the bullet points and the highlights. And I really get crazy with them, but I do it for me too, because I have a bad memory. So if I want to go back and just refer to something, I just, I can see it in the show notes. So the show notes for this show, for the round table are horrible. They're like a couple sentences because this show's all about being easy. We're just casual conversation. But it works for me in that same way, because if I'm, I always go back to the website and I type in like, has Sevilla been on the show before? Like we are 119 rounds in, I don't remember who the heck has been on the show two weeks ago. So for me, it sort of acts as like a catalog of who's been on the show. So I definitely understand the using it for reference, so with you, you said you have bullets and all that different stuff. What is this article telling us about how all that different stuff shows up in different apps? Well, I'm gonna read it because I don't have it memorized, but my takeaway from the article was that if you put links in your show notes, they don't show up the same in all of the podcast apps. And so to circumvent that, according to the article, you can, this is don't use word links in show notes, just hyperlink the actual link because some people use word links, which... So instead of looking good, it looks terrible, but it works. Right, exactly. So this does, it does depend on the app. I know Pocketcast, which is the one I use the most, does word links works great? Now it may be how it could be how this is implemented, but it's basic code, right, Daniel? I mean, what are we doing here? Why are some using word links and some will not use word links? Do we know? Well, I have to challenge the premise of this article, really. And James and I have talked about this before. And at some point, this needs to really be redone because unfortunately it used... Oh, this is also, sorry, this is from like a year ago. Yeah, but it used not invalid data, but just not good enough data to really draw a conclusion. But it is the premise, I mean, it's correct, right? Show notes do display differently depending on the app you're in. Or not. Yeah, I mean, that is correct. Exactly what displays and what's causing what to display where is different from the article's conclusions. Because in your RSS feed, so for an individual episode, there are three places, and the article does mention this, there are three places that notes or descriptions, any kind of description of your episode could go. That's the description tag, that's a standard RSS tag. There's the iTunes summary tag, which is a lot like the description tag. Those two are very much alike and sometimes there's a fallback from one to the other. And then there's the content encoded tag, which is also an official RSS tag. And the content encoded tag, that encoded part of it is part of what makes HTML inside of it work. So if you want to hyperlink instead of a URL in your notes, if you want it to say click here, or if you want it to say, podcasters roundtable, and that's a hyperlink to podcastersroundtable.com, then you have to use HTML markup to do that. How do most people access these sections of the RSS feed? Because I use Libsyn and I just have a box that I fill in my show notes. Sometimes copy paste. Yeah, it depends on the tool that you're using. Now, most of the tools, what they're going to do by default is put whatever you write as your quote show notes, however they label it. Most likely it's like a body of a word editor, right? You know what I mean? Most likely that's going to go into content encoded and maybe be duplicated into the other two fields. Some tools like Libsyn do offer for you, or PowerPress and some other tools do let you customize the text for these other fields separately from the main content. But the really important thing here is that content encoded can accept HTML. It's been able to do that for years. The podcast app, Apple podcast app has supported HTML in there for years. The description and iTunes summary tags are supposed to be shorter and they are not supposed to contain HTML. So some of these apps, and this is where the not good enough data to test all of this, because James used the twit podcast for the sample feed and that's just, that's not a good sample, a good enough sample, but some of these apps look at either the description or iTunes summary instead of content encoded. So with this, here's the thing, at this point in podcasting, like we used to know all this stuff, we knew how to, but you can't, you shouldn't have to know this, right? Like I shouldn't have to know, even have to know that one section should have less characters than another section. This is mostly, so if you are doing your own RSS feed, then you have to know that. But if you are using a service, it's on that service I think to guide you or make it easy. I mean, Lipson makes it easy, but they don't really tell me like this some community characters, it might stop me. Maybe Dave, does it stop me from putting X amount of characters? It counts your characters and then when you go over, it turns red. Right, and so again, and then Daniel, what you were saying, so sounds like it should be incumbent on the app developers to know, like they should know what the best place to pull from, right, ideally? I like the way that Apple Podcast does this actually where Apple Podcasts will, if you tap onto an episode, Apple Podcasts will display the full content with the hyperlinks from content encoded. Overcast is the same way, but something that Apple Podcasts does that most other apps don't do is Apple Podcasts also reads the iTunes summary tag. And if that's flacking, then it falls back to the description tag. They will display that in different contexts. In fact, if you're looking at an individual episode while you're playing, if the text in your iTunes summary is not a verbatim copy of the first few lines of your content, then it displays that summary in addition to your content. But if they are the same, then it smartly filters out the summary and displays only the full content. The point is that they're trying to avoid where you see the same sentence twice or the same paragraph twice. And that's really smart. How the heck are we supposed to know as podcasters what to put, what we should be putting? I mean, because if we don't know, we're never gonna check all these apps. We're never, you know, we could look like a doodoo or a Dave, whatever you would say in a lot of apps. So we'll never know this. Like most will never know this. What should we, what's a good? I don't even know. I don't know how to make a recommendation. Most people, well, if you're listening to this show, you'll get it right, right? What's a, okay, no falling on the show. Everyone sit down. I mean, for me, I look at Apple podcasts because right now that's still the majority of people that listen and listen to that. I understand that Spotify has no formatting. I don't think at least the last time I checked the actual desktop version of iTunes was pretty nasty. And so I just kind of like think, well, you know, I'm gonna do the best I can and use the tools I have. What's the recommendation? I mean, hyperlinked. So clickable links in show notes is really cool because you can say, hey, I don't know where you're listening. That's one of the problems here, right? You say, hey, whatever app you're listening into, look at the show notes, which is also hard because there's no standardization, but you can't say swipe up or swipe left or tap. They're all different, right? So you have to figure out some language that says, hey, you can check out the link right now or fill it. You know, we're running a survey at work and we say, hey, you can do it right as you're listening to this episode, check the show notes. And one thing is you've lost a lot of people right there, but hopefully they'll find it and the link is right there and it'll, and a good app will bring up a browser inside the app and you can do whatever you need to do. But I guess we shouldn't be, you know, Sevilla, you know, Daniel, should we be using long, ugly hyperlinks instead of trying to do word links? If we want to, if we want it to work most of the time. I use hyperlinks, I've never used the word links. And I use word links. And so maybe, that maybe even for this show, maybe it looks really, maybe it's just dead and I don't have a call to action for this show. Well, I do say go to podcastroundtable.com slash guest, but I don't really tell people it's in your app. Well, here's a problem with using the full URL, which putting that in your show notes instead of hyperlinking text, like to say podcasters round table or click here. Some podcast apps don't hyperlink that either. So especially if it's a long URL. But can't you, you can make, you can make the hyperlink, you can make the link a word link essentially, right? So you've kind of covered both your bases there. What I'm saying is for some apps. So let's, this isn't a podcast app, but this is just something probably many people are familiar with Instagram. You can't put a URL in a comment. I mean, you can put a URL in a comment on Instagram, but it's not hyperlinked. It's almost more frustrating to see. I feel like it's almost more frustrating to see a URL there that I can't do anything with because I can't tap on it. I can't select it. Or if I could, it's selects the entire comment and I have to then cut it out. It gets so frustrating to try and get a link. And in that case, it is on, you're only one platform. You're dealing with one app, one platform. Everyone knows link in the profile. Not everyone knows. They try to put hyperlinks, but in that case, it's manageable. Most people learn links in profile, but the podcast app is not manageable because there are so many. The good of podcasting is it's distributed and open and it's everywhere, but the bad is how your content displays is different in all kinds of different places. What I like to do is I say if I'm telling them about a link or an image or something like that, I say the link is in the show notes, a tap or swipe away in your app or go to and then I give them a very easy URL for my website. Theodacitytopodcast.com slash whatever, which does now work. Yeah, and so for me, I like to obviously, because you have the most control of your own website, make the biggest call to that, but then say, hey, you can click it in the show notes. And hopefully it doesn't date things. I would assume that being able to click in the show notes is something we're gonna be able to do forever, like if in the app. And so I think the most power user people know, oh, it's show notes are right here in the app. New podcast listeners, they're not gonna know that. And there's only so much they're gonna know, like they'll get there. And it's not like we should start saying if you're on Apple podcast, then you swipe this way. If you're in overcast, you swipe that way. And that's what I mean. That's what I mean. What's the best advice? I think the best advice, like you're saying, I think send them the website. You can say it's in the show, the link is in the show notes. You know, don't overcomplicate it. And especially you have to think you're baking this stuff in for the long haul. What's this gonna sound like in five years when people are listening and you're like, what? Do what? Yeah, cause it used to be swiped on now, it's swiped left. I'm trying to swipe left. And this thing is actually just quitting on me every time. Or I have, I keep getting dates. I don't know what's going on in this app. It's a bad joke. But I'm bummed. But I'm bummed. Thanks, I'm gonna have you back all the time. Someone gets the jokes. All right, well, any more takeaways? Daniel, you have a lot, you must have dove deep into this a year ago. Or did you just now recently look at it? Cause you have a lot of, you went back and forth with, you're saying it was a cradling from Pod News, right? Yeah, it's just the unfortunate thing is that the feed used was not optimized really for a test like this. And we really need to make a new test. And I've wanted, I have this file, literally sitting on my desktop that is named something like test feed. And it's a feed that I've wanted to create to test things like this that would be optimized exactly for testing things like this. So here's the little hack. If you wanna even just play with this on your own podcast to see what shows up where is if you have the tools to customize what goes into each of these fields, put in something, not like a spam word or make a made up word, but put in something so you will know where that text came from. So if you look at overcast, you'll see, oh, I know that I used this sentence and don't make it something obvious. Like this is the content, this is the summary, but something like that where you know, okay, this sentence only came from content encoded or this sentence only came from iTunes summary or description or something like that. That's really the ideal way to test this so that each of those fields have something different. And then you can know which is actually displaying in the content. And that's something I've wanted to do along with a bunch of other things, but life. Life, yeah. Back to Seville's love of show notes, putting in big books of show notes. What are you guys, Dave, Daniel has excellent show notes and to the point where you won't listen to the episode because, and now I'm talking about me, but I've heard other people say this too and it's not a bad thing. Like sometimes I just need to get an answer from an episode I've already listened to or like from the audacity podcast. But I know that piece of code or that tip or something's going to be in Daniel's show notes and it's gonna be well organized. So I'll go there and get it and get out. But at that point when someone provides something like that, you think, oh, they're not listening to my podcast, you're providing them such value, they'll be back. Right? They might listen to that episode. Like I said, in many cases it's an episode I've already listened to. So, but I really want that information. I don't wanna have to scrub through a whole podcast to get it. So, Dave, do you take a similar approach? I think you might be somewhere in the middle. Like this show, me, I put almost nothing. Daniel puts like really good, well, Daniel knows what to do. You know, he, instead of transcripts, this is the problem with transcripts, right? Cause it just throws up what you say, like literally just regurgitates it. But Daniel breaks it out so that it's logical flows and has actual context to it. Dave, what do you do? Yeah, when I did an episode and I asked people like, do you even look at show notes? And a lot of people don't, but they said when they did, they're usually going back doing exactly what you said, I'm looking for a link or I'm looking for something that was mentioned in the show. So I always try to do that. And I usually, what I do now is I basically type up a blog to help kind of flesh out the ideas that I wanna say in the show. It used to be the opposite. I would record this show from bullet points and then type up the blog later. And I was always coming up with something that I wish I would have recorded. So now I basically type up my show notes, get my main ideas, record it, and then kind of go from there. But I kind of go, Elsie's a great example, Pat Flynn's another guy that writes show notes so that you could pass a test on that subject. And so I try to kind of do that, but I'm actually trying to cut back on my show notes because my problem was the longer the show notes, the better chance I'm going to have a typo. So I'm trying to cut back on mine and just have bullet points, links mentioned in the show because it could be very simple and organized that way. My last show, I was talking about my trip to Australia, there's a bunch of things in the show notes that I didn't mention in the episode because I would have spent five minutes going and I spent time with this guy and he's really cool and I spent time with her and she's really cool. So, but I still wanted to shout them out. So I put them on the blog post and they saw that and I said, oh, that was really cool. So yeah, so that's basically my thought. I try to get the links and kind of like what Daniel does, you give a description of what's in the show. And in some cases people go, like I'm going to do a show in a couple of weeks about starting a network. Well, not everybody needs to start a network. Maybe they have no, they're just going to do one show. So when they come to my website and they say, hey, today we're talking about either starting or joining a network and they go, I have no interest in that. I just saved them 20 minutes. And so for me, that's, I'm fine with that. You know, they'll be back next week or maybe they'll go listen to something in my back catalog. But I want them to know upfront because the last thing I want them to do is go, man, I just wasted 30 minutes of my time. That's the last thing I want. I use that sometimes when I'm catching up on a podcast and trying to decide which episodes to skip. There are certain podcasts that I won't miss a single episode of. Other podcasts, because of the nature of their topics, sometimes episodes are not relevant to me at all. So I skip those. And I tried to make that decision by looking at the title first. But if the title isn't very descriptive, then I look at the description or the show notes of some sort. And it gets really frustrating when either one of two things happens. One is either the show notes are basically repeating the title and really giving no extra information. Title is episode title. And then show notes are in this episode, we talk about episode title. No, tell me, what are you actually talking about? But then the other frustration is when the show notes go like this. In this episode, we share the most valuable information for you to dot, dot, dot. And so the truncated show notes. And that can be a WordPress thing, or it could be, it's generally a WordPress thing if you don't have your reading settings set to display the full content. But then I don't know for one thing they wasted words at the beginning, but I don't know what the episode is actually about. And I might not know the name of the guest or the topic might not be clear. So for me, that's when I do listen a little bit to the episode, but I'd rather not waste time on an episode I could have otherwise decided I don't want. And that's on those shows that I'm not extremely loyal to or that I know this topic is not relevant to me. Ty in the chat asked, do you write show notes before after the show that you're recording? Sevilla, do you, these long show notes, are they written before you record the episode or after? They're written before, but that I have a process where if I, like for instance, I spoke with somebody in the UK yesterday and we're gonna do an episode. And so the minute I finished talking to her, I created a Google doc and I've already put episode whatever, episode in the title of the episode, her name, I've got an outline already. The minute she said, yeah, let's do this, I already created an outline. And then I'm gonna go back now and do some research leading up to the recording. And so I write as I go. So by the time the recording is done, the pod, the notes are done, the show notes are done. But back, kind of back to what the other gentlemen were saying, both of you said it in slightly different ways, but I wanna know, for instance, I'm subscribed to an astronomy podcast and so I'm already subscribed, I'm already in. It's my subject, I love astronomy, but they don't always talk about astronomy. So sometimes they have other gas or other subject. I wanna know upfront if that's something I wanna listen to. And so that's why I like show notes and not show notes that repeat the title because that really is annoying. And so yeah, I like, I just, I type as I go so I don't have a whole lot of work to do when I'm finished with the recording of the episode. Yeah, that'll really hold up an episode sometimes. Like you finished, I just recorded for an hour and then you know, you gotta do show notes and you're just like, oh my goodness, I'm gonna do that tomorrow or maybe the next day. Show notes are kind of the homework of podcasting it feels like sometimes it's just painful. But yeah, you know, I feel like, I feel like I have transitioned in the beginning where I went from writing show notes completely after to more of an outline and filling that in. I mean, I think you find, I think the thing is when you start podcasting first 10 episodes or so, it's just, it can be right off the top of your head. I mean, it's something you, you know, you have so much to say. Then you get down further and you realize I have to research this topic a little more. Like when you, like you said, you talk to someone in UK, someone you're gonna interview and you're gonna find out more information. So you sort of fill that in as you go. So I think outlines sort of come with like the maturity of your show as you go along and you have to do more work. You start putting more in a document. So it can help. It can help a lot. And obviously we know, we don't wanna read our notes. But how close do your notes follow your episode? If they're that, are the notes more, is there more content in your notes severely than the actual episode? Well, honestly, a good portion of my show notes are the questions I created for the interview. And so I start with, you know, the questions for me are an outline anyway. Yeah, I'll start off with some questions, but if we start to divert a little bit, I'll go with the conversation. I'm not gonna stick to my questions. You know, I'm pretty conversational in my episode. So the questions are more of a guideline. So there's no dead air or, you know, what do I ask her next or whatever. They're a guideline, but they're a good portion of the show notes as well. But you said you practically write a book. So there's more than just a question in there, right? Well, the questions, sometimes I have my take on things which typically happen when I'm doing a monologue. And so if I'm doing a monologue, then pretty much what I said in the episode is gonna be in the show notes, if that makes sense. Yeah, do we see, are you, Daniel, do you think we see real benefit to this in terms of Google? Like, you know, people aren't finding the round table on Google because of the show notes, but they're probably finding your show because of the show notes. I get a lot of traffic because of the search and engine optimization of the show notes for both the Audacity podcast and when we did our TV show fan podcast, because people were searching for those kinds of things, especially educational content, I think absolutely must have good, thorough show notes. Because people are going to search for that for some of the exact terms. Some of the entertaining content, it depends on if people are searching for it, I think. Like if you do comedy, of course, you can't really write thorough show notes for comedy, but you could list out the stories that you tell or the... But does Google give you more weight for your niche if your show notes are better than the next podcast that doesn't have any show notes, right? So say you were a comedy show, but you wrote out the routine or you wrote out about the stories, all that. As opposed to another show who didn't. It depends on what someone's searching for. Because no one is going to search for, probably no one is going to search for funny story about a garage door and a bathroom scale. But I did an episode about that one. No one's going to search for that. So yeah, I'm gonna be the number one result there. Yeah, but what if people are searching for clean comedy, right? So that's the weight. That's the overall. That's not the specific episode. Right, that's what I mean. As having show notes for every episode as a sort of collection on your website, you have a website where all your podcast episodes have deep show notes. Another person has a website where they just put their podcast on their website and say we're in the same niche. I'm assuming Google would hopefully give the weight. I mean, where does Google making a judgment on at that point? It's gotta be the SEO of your actual website. I would guess this is all about measuring authority. And what I'm about to say is only a hypothesis. That's what we do here. It's a bad dismembered. There's a little campfire between us. There's actually no one listening except to people over here. We're just throwing out crazy stuff. And the more we drink, the crazier it gets. So drink up. So search ranking is based on authority. And some of the ways that Google and other search engines measure authority is the quality of content. Not only the quantity of content. Quantity does weigh into it some, but the quality of it really weighs in more. So if you are publishing an episode with high quality show notes that go along with that episode, you're putting out high quality written content on a regular basis. It might not contain those ideal keywords, but my hypothesis is that it is still building your authority. And as long as the keywords in that content is in some way related to the main keywords that you're going for, I think the person who's writing good show notes will rank better than the person writing, not writing show notes. If everything else was equal, I do think. Do you think that Google gives any weight to a podcast? So having an audio embedded on your site. So say, again, let's play the everything is equal game. We're both, one person has a blog about whatever, stitching stuffed cat animals or something. I'm making it up, but clearly. I should just talk about clean comedy. So, but one of them puts a podcast there. And really all that means is maybe they have a feed and which is interesting now because of Google podcast. Maybe they have a feed on their website, but maybe they just embed their audio. Dave, you look like you have an answer. This definitely is going to boost your SEO. What? By putting an, just by putting an embeddable player, I'm here. And here's why. Now we're going to assume you have a good podcast. And so people click, right? So you, you search in stuffed furry cat stitching. I love this show, by the way. We're making this show. Boom, right. And you go to that and you're like, oh, cool. Here's an episode on the best needles for stuffed cats. Do you know how many sales we'd make? By the way, I just want to say, I'm just telling you stuffed animal cats, like not real cats. In video, we have things called dead kittens has nothing to do with actual kittens. So I click play and I listen to your podcast and it's seven minutes long. Google doesn't know that I'm not reading. It just knows I'm on that website and I didn't leave. They got to click play. So that the trick is you giving the opportunity to spend more time on your webpage. Yeah, I would think that would definitely somehow in the SEO world give you a little like, hey, that seems to be good. Versus when you come over and this is here again, just my opinion, when I go over and I see a straight transcript, I run, I do not walk to the nearest exit because we don't write like we talk. We don't talk like we write. And I start to read it in my brain goes and I leave. So for me, an audio player will get me to stick. And I would think that's got to help an SEO. The other thing with this that helps when I talk about this in my old SEO course is that having a podcast gets you on more platforms than merely having a blog. So those platforms are potentially contributing to your website SEO too, because these could be other high authority websites by the nature of RSS linking back to your website. And so, getting a link to your website from apple.com. Now there are yes, no follow links and certain things that might not pass that authority over to you, but not everyone does that. So in general though, yeah, having a podcast lets you be in more places that you couldn't otherwise be and therefore does help you make a bigger footprint. And what I like is sometimes SEO isn't only about being number one on a search page, but it's about being the search page that every result on that page is your content. And a podcast can help you get to that point. That's cool. I like it. So Villa, do you know if people find you via the web like by search, not just the podcast? I've actually been running a poll and so far they've been doing Facebook searches. And I haven't checked lately. I don't know why, but I haven't checked lately, but the last time I searched for my podcast and just for my content, I would say I was probably most of the page. Yeah. So I mean, you've managed to go pretty niche, like very specific, very almost long tail, right? If someone's gonna be searching for childless by choice, like whatever the major keywords of that, I would hope you'd come up because it seems like you're addressing very specific topic. But I don't know, maybe it's a much bigger topic, but I suspect you started the podcast to reach people who weren't getting the information that you wanted to give them. Right, they were just my understanding from these people that are, let's say ladies because it's the groups I'm running are for mostly women, although men can be childless, not by choice as well. But my understanding from the poll so far is that they probably just got bad news or they just gave up on their ninth IUI or whatever. They're not gonna pay for any more IVFs and they're coming the terms with it. So they go on Facebook, look for Facebook groups or they just do a search, a Google search. What are you, what are you putting on Facebook that people are finding you? Is it your Facebook, is it your page or are you making posts or? I have a page and I have two groups. I have a group just for women who are childless, not by choice and one for everybody else, which also includes women and men who are childless, not by choice. And I have a Facebook page and then of course the website, which going back to something someone said earlier, I mentioned the website, I mean, it may have been you. I mentioned the website on my episodes all the time and not just the show notes. But I do mention the show notes because I guess maybe because I put so much work into them. I'm like, please look at this show notes. There's links in there and everything. I was gonna say, yeah, the key is that are you giving them something, you know what I mean, not just like read them, they're the episode but if you're giving them some, there's a reason to go there. Why would the podcast listener, what else would they get? And like you said, you're putting resources and links. So that's good. Cool. All right, well, I don't, Daniel, I know you have like new iPad stuff on here but maybe we'll save that one. That's USB-C. I could talk about getting kicked out of Apple podcasts. Getting kicked, well, that sounds like a really long time. Have you achieved success in that category? You're trying to kick out. You got kicked out. Oh, we didn't do the keyword stuffing, right? And I did make a joke about that for you, God, here. You said, so if we can do this in like five minutes because I do have to run, here's where Apple seems to draw the line on podcast keyword stuffing. Which will probably be the title of an upcoming blog post on the Adacity to Podcast.com but it's not there yet. So you can click the show notes by swiping left and tapping in the, no, I'm just kidding. And hold your hand. So we've talked already before about where is this line and I know, I was very vocal about, I want to know where the line is. I think I found out where the line is and what gets Apple's attention, why certain podcasts are being hit and others aren't. First of all, it seems to be podcasts that pop up into the top 200 of overall podcasts in Apple podcasts. Those are definitely getting scrutiny. I've seen podcasts, I've been tracking the charts and I've seen podcasts in other genres that are clearly stuffing keywords into the titles or the author tags and they're not being taken down but looking at the top 200 of all podcasts in Apple podcasts, all of those titles, the last time I looked at every single podcast title in there, all of them were keyword free or for the most part, if they had any kind of keywords, I really thought that's definitely a legitimate necessary need for that particular keyword. So what happened with the Audacity to Podcast is I intentionally left the title and the author tag, the way I've had it for a couple of years, knowing that the podcast could get kicked out. I wanted to know the experience and I wanted to kind of haggle with the Apple podcast support team to find out where is this line and what they said from my podcast in particular is they said it was the author tag that was offending. So they did actually tell me I could have kept the longer title if I wanted to. It wasn't a really long title. It wasn't spamming a bunch of keywords, irrelevant keywords. It was more like a tagline or a descriptive title in addition to the regular title. They did say I could switch back to that if I wanted to, I'm not going to but where I think this helps draw the line is in very simple language that Apple gave is basically put the title and the title tag, the author and the author tag and any descriptive text and get this, the descriptive fields like the description and the summary and not to mix those where it did seem like they're a little bit more flexible is in the example that I've held onto is what about a TV show fan podcast? Like welcome to level seven. How is that going to be associated with agents of shield? And it did seem like they are a little bit flexible with that title containing a little bit more as long as it's necessary. Like I think it probably would be okay to say welcome to level seven unofficial agents of shield podcast but to say welcome to level seven theories and commentaries about Marvel cinematic universe agents of shield Daredevil Netflix series that would be definitely too much and the author tag should be only the authors of your podcast. And if a business or a network is behind that then it's okay to include that name as well. So I think that's pretty clear than where the line is. I don't really like that, but now I know and that's the line that I'm enforcing on my own show. Yeah, I mean, we know Apple wants clean. So whatever that tag is asking for, that's give them that, that's what they want. Title, like I said, if it says title, just put the title. Use the description to elaborate and the author to list the author of the, well, there's the show. Okay, here's what you do. Podcastsaroundtable.com slash 117, Dave Daniel and I talked all about this. Now you have extra information. You can work yourself back in time. Like now we know pretty much where the line is as Daniel stated and you can go find out more on round 117 if you haven't watched that yet. If you are still listening to this or watching, you're the type that would dig deep, but you're also the type that already saw 117. So maybe one or two people, we'll check it out, but we're gonna bug out. This was 119, we got 120. Sevilla's gonna celebrate 100. We were talking about that. So looking forward to that for you. We'll just do a nice even 120 number next time. Podcastsaroundtable.com slash guest if you want to be, potentially be on round 120. That would be cool. Get it while it's hot. We might not be here for 121. Who knows? Who knows? Now I'm just trying. Now I'm just, what's the marketing where you're trying to sell a shortage? No, it's Crane. Scare City. Scare City, there you go. All right, this is clearly not round table on fire because there's no good business going on here. Can't even name the marketing terms. All right, well, I enjoyed it. Sevilla, let us know where we can find your podcast. Dave and Daniel already know the drill. Well, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I can be found at childlessnotbychoice.net or sevillamorgan.com. And the name of the podcast is Childless Not By Choice. Does someone have ChildlessNotByChoice.com? Apparently, somebody in Japan got it when I went looking. I haven't looked since. Yeah, keep an eye on that. That might come available, yeah, for sure. And you know, is there, there's still not really a service. Is there a service that'll tell you when a .com comes out available? Dave, Dave should know this. He's the king of .coms. No, it's a service. You can buy from GoDaddy and then it becomes available. No, it's GoDaddy, okay. How much is that? A lot or reasonable? It's like eight bucks a year, if I think it's something pretty cheap. Okay, that's fine. If it's, if it's a domain you really want. Because I'm watching podfade.com. Because I owned that at one point. Now it's owned by Steven Jean Roux. In the minute he lets that go, I'm snagging it back. You're never letting it go now. Never letting it go. Never, never. All right, that's funny. Okay, cool. Well, .net, ChildlessNotByChoice.net. Check that out. And Daniel, thanks for joining us. Thank you, Daniel J. Lewis from theodacitytopodcast.com. Keep an eye there for that blog post where I will release that extra information soon. And on the social networks at the Daniel J. Lewis. Very cool. Dave. Dave Jackson, find me at schoolofpodcasting.com. Very cool. All right, podcasterroundtable.com for bad show notes but more rounds. We'll see you next time. Wave goodbye. Oh, I'm using my mouse when I should be using a trackpad. Maybe we can break Google this time.