 Get some giggles. Hang on. Quit it, Chase. I'll look away. I know. If you do something, it's going to make me go. Come on, sir. Are you ready? Here we go. I'm Scott Rouse with Body Language Expert and Analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation and body language. I created the number one online body language course, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark? I'm Mark Boden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language to help people all over the world to stand out, win, trust, and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase? Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years of the U.S. military. We're at the number one bestselling book on human behavior, profiling, influence, and persuasion. And I train people in those things today. Greg? Greg Hartley. I'm a former honorary interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor of written 10 books on body language and behavior. Put together this number one BodyLanguageTactics.com course with Scott Rouse. And I spend most of my time on Wall Street in corporate America. All right. Not long ago, we interviewed Don Wells about his daughter, Summer, who was missing. And we got to go to King, Greg and I went to Kingsport. We all four couldn't go. And the only two that could go were Greg and I. So we had a little meeting and we got all our questions together and decided how we'd approach this. So what you're going to be seeing as we interview him, as you saw, if you've watched the interview with him, like Greg always says, it's just the tip of the spear. That's all we were. What we were representing all four of us. So that's real important to know. And as we go through these, we're not going to go through every section of the interview. Just the parts that we think are important that people are going to look at and go, oh, this means this and oh, that means that when we'll find out if those actually do mean that or not. Greg, you want to add anything to this? Yeah. So a couple of things. We met this guy in a hotel. This is not an interrogation room. We don't have badges. We don't have handcuffs. We don't have any of that kind of control. Number one, we want to mention that. Number two, the guy came there willingly and stayed as long as we talked to him and finally left. I will tell you that at least 33% of people will be disappointed with our conclusion no matter what we come up with during this. This is a very serious case. We cannot say the name Summer Wells is missing enough times. She's still missing. We don't know what happened to her. And we really need everyone to pay attention to that. We'll flash up her information. As we went through this, we had our own ideas and we have to overcome those. Any bias you have in your head, you have to come up with that. The other thing is to remember, like I always say, if you're interrogating someone, you have absolute control. You can do a lot of things you can't do when you're sitting face to face with someone. And to Scott's point, if you start pounding the desk and saying, you know, where is this person? Well, guess what? This will be a really short interview. So a little bit different questioning technique, a little bit different style. And you'll also realize the guy when he first came in said to us, look, I don't talk really well. So he wanted to be comfortable and we want to make sure he's comfortable and he was more than willing to participate. And we appreciate that from this family. Trying our intent is to get as much information out about Summer Wells as we possibly can. So we hear us use her name at every turn. That's it. Yeah. Sometimes you'll see us laughing along with Don. We're trying to, at the beginning of that, we're creating a rapport, getting him to like us and want to tell us stuff so he feels safe. And some of these videos are going to look a little bit nervous, especially at the beginning as we get the baseline videos. Because at that point, he isn't really connected with us yet. He can't tell. He's been stung a couple of times, people coming out and do it with an agenda that he wasn't aware of when they were videoing and that came out later and didn't look too good for him. But so as we go through this, remember, that's the way this looks. Also let me add that that day, Don had his ears were stopped up and they really were. Because sometimes we'll ask him a question, he'll say, what, you know, like, and people go, Oh, he was, this is where he's busted. He couldn't hear. We talked to him out in the parking lot before that for, you know, five, 10 minutes. And he was, huh? Well, everything, because he couldn't hear well. And he kept saying, listen, my ears are clogged up. So when you see that, it's not him being shocked by the question. He just didn't hear it. He couldn't hear him. We know the difference in those two, the way those look. So just so you know. And he prefaced it with that and we went in knowing that. So all right. You guys ready? Here we go. Here we go. How long does the, the, the, the Saturday school last for the kids? We'll be there at 9 30. Well, they have, we got our first class and it runs about an hour, hour and a half. And then we go to the big, uh, to the big room together. And the kids are, are separated from every year at the first class. And then we all joined together in a big room and so they have teacher different. I guess you got different teachers. Yeah. Rob and, uh, and other ones that teach the younger ones. And there's a lot of kids there that are extremely happy. Yeah. How many, how many classes are there? Do you think? Well, you got your younger kids and then you got your, you know, uh, I'd say there's about three or four different classes and groups are all the, so all the, all the girls and boys that are at summer's age are in the same class. Yes. Who teaches that class? They have us. Uh, I can't remember her name. Uh, I know Robin. I think maybe Robin teaches the youngest ones. Yeah. So she was her teacher. I think so. Yeah. And that's why she was so proud, you know, to give Robin that little yellow necklace and the bracelet. All right. Mark, why don't you go first? Yeah. So I'm going to talk here about what I think he's very good at, because if you, if you look across the interview on a whole, you're going to go, I seems to not know some details, but he knows the details he knows and he doesn't know the details that he doesn't know. And what he does seem to know pretty well is, is spatially like you can tell distance and he knows if something's, you know, the big room, maybe can't name the room, but it's, it's the big room. So, uh, not good at knowing the names of kind of all the classes that people will be in. So you get little micro shoulder shrug on that, even when he mentions, you know, the buckets that people are put in, the partitions that they're putting, he's not quite sure. So as a, as a baseline, we've kind of got to go. There's stuff that he's going to know and we'll get downward intonation and we'll get a lot of certainty and there's stuff that he just won't know. And some of the stuff he won't know, you and I might go, well, why don't you know that? Like, how come you don't know how old your kids are? Well, just, just so you know, it takes me ages to work out how old my kids are. Okay. And I love my kids and I've spent my whole life with my kids. Okay. I would consider myself a pretty good father. And if you go, how old are your kids? I go, huh, because I have dyslexia and numbers are really hard. Now, I don't know what medications Don is on. I don't know what learning difficulties he may or may not have. That would take a different type of interview. But I have to put into this that he's, he won't necessarily not know things because he's covering stuff up. He's just going to not know stuff because that's not the stuff that he knows. Now, what he does come with the idea of being proud. Okay. So an emotional idea and he illustrates that clearly demonstrates the pride there of the yellow necklace, the bracelet. Oh, and they're extremely happy. Again, happiness, pride. So he's able to access the idea of other people having emotions. That that can be quite important. And he knows the stuff that he knows going to leave it at that chase. What do you got for us? Yeah, I agree with you on this baseline and development here. What we're starting to see that it's common, even in the other videos and the rest of this video, that Don starts to answer a question before Scott or Greg was finished asking a question just because he's got the gist of it. He says, Oh, I understand what this question is. I'm just going to go ahead and start answering. So that's a baseline behavior for him. And there's a lot of illustrations and body narrations here. You're starting with the necklace to this bracelet. And we're starting now to see this tendency with his eyes, more specifically his blinking. And when Don is processing data when he's trying harder to come up with something or to remember the specific details while he's talking, his blink rate is very quick. So there's an eye flutter there. So the more confident he is with the information, the less often he blinks. So we see one thing when he's really confident about something that he's talking about, there's a marked lowering in how often Don blinks in here. So those are the two things I'd like to just point out in the baseline. Scott. All right. As I'm asking these questions, I've got my arms open like this and my questions are going and they'll stop them halfway through the question and hoping he'll pick up on what I'm saying. And then I'll move to further into that question. So it keeps him on his toes to be paying attention. So he so it feels like even though he's been asked these questions before, if he has been, then he'll be trying to take in that information to make sure it's the first that this is the first time he's been asked that question before. We are seeing those things where he's unsure about the guys nailed that. And he's not sure because he doesn't know he hasn't there hasn't been in depth thought about those things. So he's just relaying information. Not he's not comfortable with us yet. He's really not he's really not in with us yet. So he's he's he's a little stand not standoffish, but he's a little bit. He's holding back just a touch. But at the same time, the innocence and the eyes up and all that. This isn't I mean, Don's a great guy, but he's nothing. He's not the most innocent guy in the whole wide world. So it's in that position, having a camera, a camera on you, being accused of something like this. A lot of people have accused him of it. Nobody in law enforcement has. That's going to make him act that way as well. So he's going to be a little bit standoffish and worrying about how he looks to us, especially since he knows who we are and what we do. And that's the reason we're there specifically to do that. So but I think he's holding up pretty good so far in this part. You're right, Mark. We see a couple of things that let us know he's not sure. It's not deception. I'm not seeing any deception in here whatsoever when it comes to these answers. I'm just seeing him be unsure. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so let's walk down the same path. We start off looking at a factual presentation. We ask the right questions to get him to give us facts, just facts. There's no reason for him to tell us anything stupid. So we're looking for information about how he processes information. Mark, love the fact you picked up on the pride. He's talking about this jewelry. His chin rises even to show pride. That's what we typically associate with pride. When he's accessing and chasing with you, the blink rate is an indicator of processing. And he only answers questions that he's picked up on. If he doesn't truly understand the question, we'll see him stop, condition the question, maybe ask my house. We'll see it more than one time in here. But when he does understand the question, he just spits out facts and he gives you what he's got. Now, sometimes his understanding of the question may be tainted. And some of that. And Scott, I would also say this. You see us behaving differently there than you see us behaving here. I told you, I got all these wrinkles on my forehead from using my forehead. And I don't do it a lot here, except for to show you what things look like. But when I'm talking to someone, I'm constantly twisting my forehead and looking at them. And you'll be able to pick our body language up as well, going through this. This is a good opportunity for us to see what's normal for him with little stress. And Scott's dead on when he came into the place. He was stressed. He knows what we do. And he came in to talk to us. I'll leave it at that. All right. Well, how long is the Saturday school last for the kids? We'll be there at 9 30. Well, they have. We got our first class and it runs about an hour, an hour and a half. And then we go to the big, to the big room together. And the kids are separated, remember? Yeah, the first class. And then we all joined together in a big room. And so they have teacher different. I guess you got different teacher stuff. Yeah, like Robin and other ones that teach the younger ones. And there's a lot of kids there. They're extremely happy. Yeah. How many, how many classes are there, do you think? Well, you got your younger kids and then you got your, you know, I'd say there's about three or four different classes and groups. Are all the, so all the, all the girls and boys that are summer's age are in the same class. Yes. Who teaches that class? Do they have a son? I can't remember her name. I know Robin. I think maybe Robin teaches the youngest ones. Yeah. So she was her teacher. I think so. Yeah. And that's why she was so proud to give Robin that little yellow necklace and bracelet. He's moving forward then. And did he ever, did he ever teach him or anything he'd ever do? David. Yeah. Our pastor? Yeah, I started, you know, I'm David. Okay, we got David Dawson and then you got David, David, our pastor. David the pastor, yeah. The pastor. He teach the adults like I would go to his class and my wife, you know, the older ones and he's got an awesome class. I love it. Absolutely love it. But never, never kid, never even work with the youth group or anything? Not, not the pastor. I don't know what he teaches in their school. You know, I'm not familiar with that too much. I've been there, but I don't know. Yeah. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, here if we watch him, he uses illustrators. I would go, he walks through and he's, he's focused on what you're asking. But he's also trying to give you information. He's talking to Scott, trying to give him information. You'll notice that brow rise in him. Look at him and then look at me to see that we're perceiving. There's nothing to hide. But this is his request for approval, his chance to look and see if we are agreeing with what he's saying or understanding what he's saying. There's no reason to agree. We just need to understand his blank rate. Again, you see the processor speed come in, as you would call it, Chase, as he gets to something where he needs to think, his processor speed starts to go in to overdrive. And then he nods for affirmation to see if you're getting it. A lot of eye contact with both me and Scott looking to make sure that we're understanding what he's saying, not yet understanding why we're asking this. If you ask him, I guarantee he wouldn't have said they're trying to get a baseline. He would have said they're digging for something. And when you ask a person a question, they first internalize that question, understand what it means before they try to answer. And we're seeing that. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. These are these are the baseline questions. So we're seeing a little bit more of the blinking as they're just kind of getting close to any of these parts of the story that require some processing speed. And what Greg and Scott are doing here is very common in interview and interrogation. I think it should be way more common in employment screenings when somebody's going up for a job. But this baseline is a critical part of a conversation where I'm understanding how does this human being behave when they're not under stress? They're not being accused and they're answering things that are truthful and that I can prove to be true, which is and we're looking for that that behavior. So just to just as an aside to this, if you are an interrogator or a job interviewer, you're in the business of talking to people and detecting deception. Change is more important than understanding like here's what crossed arms mean. Here's what genital covering means. Looking for changes and deviations in that person's behavior is a big deal. Somebody says scratching your nose is a lie or deceptive behavior. If someone scratches their nose all the time, the time they're probably being deceptive is when they stop. So we're looking for changes more than just these singular behaviors. And that's a great definition of baseline Chase just gave you. That's it. Yeah. And so and this is kind of Greg and Scott continuing to probe a little bit. And for most people, it would just sound like, OK, they're just asking this ancillary information to start building an idea, a story, a narrative and an understanding of this environment. And we're seeing Don still on baseline. He's comfortable illustrating. So keep that in mind as we're going forward. He's comfortable illustrating with his hands. He's showing things. He's pointing and is using his body to show the story. Mark. Yeah. So often if I'll interview people, I will try and get them to be emotional, try and get them to use emotional words, eventually try and get them to self reflect, talk about themselves and see how they manage that. What's really interesting about this is he's going again by himself into emotional areas. I love it. It's awesome talking about the the the class. Now, you might say and you'd have every right to say this. Well, maybe he's putting that on. Maybe he's trying to put up a front. Maybe he wants to project this mask to us of being involved in in the church. I don't get that from the way he says it. It's quite understated. It has downward inflection to it. He doesn't look for approval on that. It has a lot of earmarks for me that suggest he's being honest about he does love it. It is awesome. And that's something we might expect with somebody who is trying to find a new community. If you're going to buy into that narrative that he puts forward. And I'm not saying you should. If anything, I'm trying to give you some other ideas to go with here because you already have your biases and that's OK. But what if I'm right? I mean, you can say, hey, Mark, you don't know anything. You're not right at all. That's that's OK. You can do that. But what if I'm right? Because if you're wrong early on, if your ship is a degree off of meaning at the start of your journey, you're so far off as you've gone down this narrative. So what I would suggest is as we go through this, just close up your ideas a little bit, make them a little more lean, a little less extreme right at the start. And you might be able to hit the target at the end rather than the being way, way off. So I'm going to say when he says I love it, it's awesome that he's being honest about that. You could prove me wrong in the end, but I'm going to go with he's being genuine about that. Scott, what do you got for us? All right. One of the most important things we wanted to get to was finding out when he was explaining something if he was doing it for the first time. If he was if he was making something up. So the part about the confusion between the that we discuss there was trying to have him spend that was I'm confused. I don't know what's going on. Are you talking about this guy or this guy? Because we knew there were two that were the same name. So we as we went in, we wanted to make sure that we got that his exclamation explanation of things. So when we were confused how he would look when he was explaining things to us, but then again, he was still up and we get this was taken. This was filmed a little bit after. I believe it was after he cried a little bit, wasn't it, Greg? Yes, that's why his eyes are watery like that. So and he was he's coming down from from from an emotional or trying to come back up from an emotional down at this point. But so we got a good handle on his baseline for explaining something he thinks we're confused about. So if we don't understand something, he's explaining for the first time as he was there in that explanation. Well, no, if we get in, if it were to get sticky and we'd start talking about some other specifics that we need to know about, is he being, as he said this before, is he making it up? That's where that's was that was the reasoning behind that. So you guys covered everything else. All right, one thing to point out, Scott, I think it's important because this is a long video. We're not going to cover every interaction we had with him, a couple of things to point out. Number one, Don does have a checkered past. I mean, I'm not going to try to defend this guy for whatever is going on in his past, but every one of those things, no matter what you say, may or may not be true, we don't know all the details, that still doesn't mean that he did this. That's the reason we went to find out what he knew about Summer Welds, not to figure out what his past was. We were digging for something specific. And so as you're watching this, and I don't think we're going to cover him crying today, I pushed him to an emotional state intentionally to see him cry. I asked him one time, how do I get to your house? A very open-ended question. And you could see the confusion in his face about what are you asking? We did that intentionally because we're trying to get, what does he do when he's embarrassed? What does he do when he's, you know, when he is confused? And then when you start digging into questions, that body language should come back. So we'll talk about it as it comes up. And did he ever teach him or anything he'd ever do? David? Yeah. Our pastor? Yeah, he's talking about David. Okay, we got David Dawson, and then you got David, David our pastor. David the pastor, yeah. David the pastor, he teach the adults, like I would go to his class and my wife, you know, the older ones, and he's got an awesome class. Love it. Absolutely love it. But never kid, never even work with the youth group or anything? Not the pastor. I don't know what he teaches in their school. You know, I'm not familiar with that too much. I've been there, but I don't know. Yeah. Are we good? Yes. All right. He starts, you know, coming up with excuses why he can't make it to work and stuff, and giving me trouble. And then the day I fired him, he was, you know, doing a pen like that there, okay? And he spent probably two hours on it. Well, it sort of took 20 minutes to coat that with mud, first coat. And we were supposed to do something else and he just jumped on that and he was speaking under his breath and just carrying on. And then he comes to me with a pan of mud and he says, there's a whole kind of traction there to get it out there and give me some different mud. So I was like, I'm all right, okay? I threw it away, got him some fresh mud and he come back at me again. He's like screaming at me, you know, I told you, did you put it back in there or what? You're familiar with that kind of behavior for somebody like that? I don't know. I don't seem like that was the kind of behavior. Well, I looked on YouTube of all the behavior that somebody on meth would have. You know, the only thing I can remember is hyperactive. Sure. But yeah, but he was screaming at me, you know, just go home. I'll take care of this job. I got this job. I'll handle it by myself or whatever. When I thought about that and I went to lunch. When I come back, I don't believe, get off the job, don't want to work with you one more second. And he didn't like that too well. All right, Chase, what do you got? So right here, he goes to about noon or one o'clock if we're looking at him with his eyes while he's talking about watching this YouTube video. This is a very vital data point for any interrogator, not that I'm relying on some chart from 1970 of where the eyes move and what it means. I'm relying on what I just observed. He was recalling looking at something and that's where his eyes go. I'm going to make a note of that. And if I'm asking him to describe something visual or something where he has to recall visual data in the future and I see somewhere different and I see him and it could be a guilt question that he looks a different direction. That is a huge red flag for me. There's equal eye contact to both Greg and Scott during his entire answers. There's a wonderful establishment of some form of baseline here. And he demonstrates a lot of comfort with his body illustration. He's showing stuff with his body. He's showing this thing, this drywall pan and pointing it up in the room that you guys were in. He's showing the bucket with the mud in it and talking about when he threw it away. And he shakes his head while he's speaking about things that he's disagreeing about. So he's saying this guy was speaking under his breath and carrying on and he's shaking his head during that. And then he's nodding while speaking about something that he took a stand against this guy which is a wonderful piece of baseline. He's nodding during positive things and when he wants you to agree, he's shaking his head during things where he's disagreeing or in some kind of disagreement with what he's speaking about. I'll leave it at that. Greg? Yeah, this guy's telling a story and he's illustrating. This is, I'm going to guess if you're his friend and you're hanging out with him, well, we know that if we've talked to him twice and we know that this guy has a storytelling kind of a personality, he's using references, that pan right there. He's giving you a reference. He's telling a story using his hands. He's illustrating these things that punctuate your words of thoughts. He's moving his hands to make points. He's making things bigger or smaller. He's using a lot of words that we don't hear him use in other cases. He does some downright eye access and when he's talking about the guy, Chase is talking about up left as he's speaking about something he visually remembers. And then he does some downright which we typically associate with emotion. So he's thinking as he's telling the story and he's giving out information. The cadence of his speech is a little more lilting as he's telling the story and telling you something and giving you a frame of reference for one of these guys. I told Scott, it's a little bit like ghost stories when he's telling you all these different people he thinks may have done something because he's trying to give you his thoughts and illustrate it with enough words to make it fit. Now when we start to ask him stories about a question that we are, sorry, we start to ask him questions about the story, Candice's story, if he doesn't have that same level of detail, it's gonna automatically make people jump to red flags. If it's secondhand story, it'll be a different way of telling. But this is him telling something that happened to him and I believe it happened to him. It's easy to follow his baseline. Scott, what do you got? Yes, he was fairly comfortable talking about this. His illustrators were open. He was very fluid with this. He was loping as he talked and loping as we just kind of go right along and everything sounds just fine. Sounds the way it should. No deception in here anywhere. No need to be for any deception in here. Everything looked the way it should look. Everything sounded the way it should sound. And we weren't getting any pushback from him on this kind of thing. Obviously for this we wouldn't, but as he went into details of stuff, again great for baseline as he starts telling about things he's experienced and is giving us that information. Because I don't think he's told anybody for the first time the things he found on the internet about drug use. I don't think that would be new to him. So that was the only part where I know I did pretty sure Greg did too, or like you're telling us about that and where he may have in his past have experienced those things. I don't know how to word it differently. I can be completely wrong, don't know. But that's the only one I made sure to pay attention to so I could know if that came up again in a situation I would recognize those cues as we went through. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so absolutely right. Couldn't agree more. He's creating a story here. You've got all the elements of the story. He does it really well. He describes it spatially. He takes on the characters. He does the voices. He does the emotions. So a great baseline as to what he'll do if he's really engaged with a story and he wants to engage you. I think he does the YouTube piece about the meth head because he wants to cast that character as the meth head. And so he goes, look, you know, authority of YouTube, data point of one, that'll be our meth head in the story. So I think that's what he's kind of doing there. I think what this says to me is, so he says, there's an upward inflection right at the start here. I think he wants us to approve of how he handles this situation. And then he describes the situation. And this is really Don's, in my mind, soap opera world because he quickly gets into this drama that is probably interesting if you're part of it. And if you're outside of that, you might well go, what's this got to do with anything that's going on here? But it is easy to get dragged in, isn't it? It's easy to get dragged in and go, okay, there's a meth head involved. Is there a bit of violence going on? And he's pretty good at doing, you know, that it was getting quite aggressive because he brubs his nose there. I think that's because he's actually getting heated himself. You'll often see people do that when they're getting aggressive because blood will rush to the nose. So I think he easily draws us, probably unconsciously, into this soap opera world that he's got of drama going on. And to an extent, we need to resist that a little bit because again, we might end up getting dragged down exactly the wrong narrative here. And we've got to keep open to where the real facts might be or the real information might be as to, well, what's happening with summer? That's all I got for you. Okay. And he starts, you know, coming up with excuses why he can't make it to work and stuff and giving me trouble. And then the day I fired him, he was, you know, doing a pan like that there, okay? And he spent probably two hours on it. Well, it just sort of took 20 minutes to coat that with mud, first coat. And we were supposed to do something else and he just jumped on that and he was speaking under his breath and just carrying on. And then he comes to me with a pan of mud and he says, there's a whole kind of traction there to get it out there and give me some different mud. So I was like, my world okay. I threw it away. I got him some fresh mud and he come back at me again. He's like screaming at me. You know, I told you, did you put it back in there or what? And you're familiar with that kind of behavior for somebody like that. It seemed like that was the kind of behavior. Well, I looked on YouTube of all the behavior that somebody on meth would have. You know, only thing I can remember is hyperactive. Sure. But yeah, but he was screaming at me. You know, just go home. I'll take care of this job. I got this job. I'll handle it by myself or whatever. When I thought about that and I went to lunch. When I come back, I don't believe. Get off the job. Don't want to work with you one more second. And he didn't like that too well. The incident with summer happened when summer disappeared. Where were you working then? See, I was at, I was in Jonesboro. Okay. Yeah. Jonesboro, which? Yeah, Jonesboro. Tennessee? Yeah. Okay, I don't know this area very well. Yeah. How far away is that from home? Well, it takes 45 minutes to get from there to my house. Okay. And up 81 all the way. And that's where I was working. All right. Chase, what do you got? So I think there's a loping that's ever present through a lot of these things. Greg right here is probing for some more baseline and making a couple of admissions that, you know, I'm not from here. I don't know the area very well, which helps the other person to open up more. And this actually works. And his baseline is usually different when he's asking someone different types of questions. So we're going to see his eyes move different ways. We're going to see him react different ways to something called episodic memory of events and things that he recalls. And next is spatial and detail memory. So we're thinking about spatial and detail memory. This is like, what did the room look like? How big was something? And finally, we're going to see a different behavioral reaction when he's discussing a memory of dialogue and when he spoke to a person. That may not be all the categories. This is the big three that we can actually pinpoint and look for here pretty easily. Greg and Scott left the silence there for him to keep talking and it actually worked. You can see how easy this is. Greg and Scott just didn't say, okay, as soon as he became a little bit close to being finished, he continued to speak when he says up 81 and that's where I was working. He continued to talk to fill in the silence, which is great. And we're looking at both of you guys in your quarter zip fleece that had to be planned. I'm watching this video wondering about the planning for that. But Scott, I'll pass it to you. Yeah, we didn't want to go in and match like we're twinsies, but it was important to have, to at least have a look that from the top part, you had this, but the bottom part, you had jeans that were a little bit old and a little bit, and Greg had on his cowboy boots and had on sneakers. So we didn't want to look like we were, you know, FBI agents coming in in suits and like, hey, tell me what's going on. He's been dealing with all that. Of course. So we want to be kind of, so yeah, that's really good, Chase. I wanted to bring you up just so people would understand why that was important and you look unified as if you're on a team together. Yeah. There you go. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. We're okay. Well, we'll talk with it later. Anyway, where was my point? Oh, yeah. So as, and again, talking about the interrogation part of listening to Greg's tone of voice, it's real soft and it's, and it's odd for us to see Greg being all calm and soft about something for a lot of people anyway, not me. And to be so kind as he's saying all these things, especially when somebody in that situation. So pay attention to our approach to these. The way we're talking, you'll see our tone, our tones of voice voices, however you say it grammatically correct, change as we go throughout this. And our body language will change as well. Right now we're being very still. We're getting things really, really quiet. The lighting guys did a great job in there because it made it almost feel like a room in there of darkness around this light thing. The stuff we're looking at now will have to be brightened up a little bit because this edit of it is too dark. But we're trying to, we're taking advantage of that. It was really quiet in there. It was a really big room, but it was really small right there. So it gave us that intimate feel with him. And we were just close enough to reach out and touch him. That's what you want to be close enough to do that. Whereas we had, that happened a couple of times in emotional parts of the interview. So our approach to it, I'll talk about that on this end of it, was at this point to be really calm and understanding with him as we're trying to find out this information. Not only because we're trying to get him in a certain mood, we want to see how he reacts to those questions in that mode as well, in that mode that we're in as well. So that was really important. Greg, where do you got? Yeah, so one thing, I'm talking softer here, you'll notice because I'm trying to bring him down to a different place and I'm not trying to threaten. Everyone thinks I'm this mean scream and yell guy. And we always say, if you're being interrogated that way, you're really not, no one's effective doing that. You should not even realize you're being interrogated. As a matter of fact, the guys with us thought, well, I wish you'd gotten what you wanted when it was over. And we said, oh, oh, trust us, we got what we wanted. Yeah, we got everything. Because it was just a conversation. But what I was after here is the first minor probe. This is a probe. Where were you? You know, he's been asked this question a dozen times, a thousand times. And as far as I know, TBI and those guys will have cleared his story and said where he's at. So I didn't push too hard to go into on that. But when he said Jonesboro, his eye contact was really high. His blink rate goes way down, if you notice this, because he's certain of what he's saying. And then he makes intentional eye breaks occasionally. And he tells me about this 45 minutes. Now, here's something that tells me I have tapped into a part of his brain that knows I'm on a threat question. I hear him start to change his speech pattern. And he goes, and that's where I was. And to your point, Chase, he's trying to figure out what am I after? And he's trying to make sure he satisfies what I'm after. But that and, and, and, and there proves to me I hit the right spot with him. And so we're in the right cadence, we're at the right speech pattern, we're the right amount of eye contact, the right amount of silence. And you'll see us use this again as we get deeper into the questioning. We intentionally, I told him, they're going to be hard questions I'm going to ask you. And I'll tell you when I'm going to ask you hard questions. And people say, we are telegraphing. Yeah, because it creates stress. And that's a wonderful thing to say, I'm about to ask you some hard questions. Well, what are you going to ask? And you can see it in people when you do it. But if you'll watch him, he's nodding to get agreement. And when he says I'm up 81 all the way, you just should know that when a person changes this way, it means you're tapping into something that's creating stress for them. And it's clear in his case. Mark, what do you get? Yeah, so it is a stress question. It is, where were you the night of? So it's, it's one of the first questions that's going to come in, which has some heat behind it. And you might look at it and you might go, wow, there's a bit of a pause there. And he, and he doesn't seem to remember the name of the place. Or, you know, why doesn't that immediately come? Well, the things, the things in his life don't immediately come. The numbers, the things don't immediately come. The space is there for him. He knows that really well. He doesn't access the names of things so well. There's, there's a neural type that goes with that, but I'm not going to diagnose, but, and by the way, you know, body language can often just be a Rorschach test of you. So I'm going to look at him and I'm going to most likely see me and you're going to look at him and you're most likely going to see you. So what you've got to do is pick up on some of what I'm saying and go, so is Don more like Mark or is he more like me? Because I'm also going to engage my critical thinking as well and go, it feels like me. I bet he's a bit like me and he can't kind of work out the name of things. But what if that isn't true? Perhaps it's not true. So you've got to use his critical thinking ideas of perhaps and maybe. So here's one of those. We see him take a big in-breath on that and this is a critical question there and his breathing changes there. Well, I already know this is a critical question. And so I'm already primed to go, oh, I want to check out his breathing. See if that breathing changes. Does he do big breathing, heavy breathing? And on a first glance, he does. But then I go back and look at the baseline and he doesn't. So you've got to keep going back and looking at the baseline. This is not really far enough off his baseline that I would suggest that he wasn't exactly where he says he was at this point. I think any disruption in this, any deviance from the baseline that we've got is about this is a pressure question. This is an institutionalized guy. He knows that when the big questions come, you've got to be careful whatever. Whether you did it or you didn't do it, you've got to be careful. That's what I got for you on that one. Then that summer happened when summer disappeared. Where were you working then? See, I was at, I was in Jonesboro. Okay. Yeah. Jonesboro, which? Yeah, Jonesboro. Tennessee? Yeah. Okay, I don't know this area very well. Yeah. How far away is that from home? Well, it takes 45 minutes to get from there to my house. Okay. And I'm 81 all the way and that's where I was working. Is there anything about Candice's story that makes you question the story? No, not the way it played out and everything like that. I mean, yeah, you always have questions and I'd ask myself, but the way that it happened and her emotions and her state of mind. What were the questions that you had? I mean, I don't really have any, I mean, I question, I don't really have any questions. I mean, Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So this is a really good example. I had a question. I asked the thought. I heard him stammer stutter, had a follow up and I actually stepped on Scott because Scott was trying to get more information out of him here. If I'd been a little quieter, we would have gotten a little more information. But I think he was candidly, I think he's out of information was just stammering to stammer. This made me wonder, did he truly believe the story he'd been told? Because what he's telling us is a story that's secondhand. And when he tells us a secondhand story, it's rote memory. It's exactly what you expect from a secondhand story. You'll see him push his tongue out of his lips. Now, his lips are bright ruby red and we think it's probably because he smokes a fair amount and that kind of thing. But he does lick his lips a lot on when he gets under the stressful situation. Mean something maybe, but it isn't his baseline. As he's going along though, he cannot finish an entire thought. Now, he is not the most eloquent speaker and Don would tell you that himself. I'm not beating him up for the way speaks because we all have our own patterns. I have my own very southern speech pattern. But he stops and stammers and I'm sure number one, he's got to realize that Candice is going to watch this. Number two, how does it work their stories? So this is a stress moment. We're seeing something in him that causes both Scott and I to want to go. Why can't he answer that question with a simple no? If you asked me if my wife did something, I would have said no. Very simply. This is not a no. This is something much different. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, this is the point where both I was waiting for Greg to jump up his hiding and he was waiting for me to jump up signing. And but we knew better than that at that point. Because all you got to do is get up and leave if we if we leaned into him really hard at that point. And as the loping stops here, lopings, we're going to tell the story almost like something loping through a field like a horse run through a field, that kind of thing. And we're not seeing that here. He's editing as he goes along. He's self editing in real time. Should I say this? What am I going to say? Then when he decides he didn't have any questions when I said, what kind of questions do you have? And he didn't. And again, knows my tone of voice and we're saying that because we know this is important because what kind of questions do you have? So we had to say, what kind of questions do you have? Almost almost like throwing it out there. And his and when he's answering as he self edits, he's he's thinking I've got to be cool about this because you're right, Greg. He's got to go home to his life and his wife and live there. And she's going to be like, what? You don't believe me? What the hell are you talking about? You don't believe me? So he's got to deal with that. Knowing that as well, it was the reason for our soft approach. But it's really important in there because that's when you're right, Greg. That's when we both said, you know what? I'm not so sure he believes what she's saying. And this we expand on that at another point. But this is really important part of because this is not in his baseline. This is completely out of his baseline. He's really quiet. His eyes, his blink rate goes low. He's looking, he is looking at his lips, but I don't think that's pushing out sour taste and all that. I don't think that's that at all. I think it's from I think it's it's like a tick. Nervous habit he has, but that's why his lips are so slick from smoking and doing that all the time. So and licking his lips all the time. I think that's what that's from. So they were not seeing any, I'm not going to say we're not seeing deception in there because it's seeing a bunch of red flags. They're like four of them in a row right there where he starts slowing down and he's editing. But that really was a point where I go, I'm not so sure he believes what he's saying. And as he's editing himself, I think he knows what he's going to say, but he's chopping it up. And pushing things back into rows to make sure everything straight so he's good to go. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so here's what I think he does know. He says he doesn't have questions about how it played out, the physical time of the narrative, all the stuff that he's good at. He doesn't have any questions around how that story played out, the time span, the space. I don't think he's got a problem with that. It's got no questions around that. The emotions and the state of mind. Now, again, he's talked about emotions in his baseline and he's pretty good at going, you know, proud and naming emotions and happy. And so, and those are pretty basic, but that's a good baseline to say, if he thinks he knows that somebody is emotionally in a state, he's already said that he's pretty good at that, proved that he's pretty good at that. So he's got no problem with that. He says, you always have questions. So we could look, we could bias towards the idea of, yeah, maybe he does wonder is Candice's story correct, or maybe it's just the idea of, well, until you know something for sure, you always have questions. So there's the idea of mystery always exists, regardless until mystery is solved. And he says, and I've asked myself, doesn't really finish that. The question is, what have you asked yourself? Because if you ask it of yourself, is it that, well, I asked myself, could I have done more? Could I have been better? Could I have protected more? In this whole interview, you hear about how unprotected that place is. It's completely exposed with people coming up, swapping out dogs, you know, just, I'll take your dog, I'll leave some other dogs there. They come up on horses, all kinds of other stuff to do stuff and stuff and things. And so it's a bit of an odd situation up there. And maybe you would ask yourself, is this really somewhere that have I really provided the right place? Has my wife, my partner provided the right place? So it could be that. I question any eye blocks on that. Chase, what are your thoughts on this? You guys got all the good stuff here. But this video really shows us the power of baseline and how important baseline is. We know Don Wells likes to start questions as soon as he is able to get the gist of what you're asking him. This question was concise, crystal clear, and easily understood, and this amount of hesitation here would be a significant red flag for me in any interview. And I think Don starts to roll down a hill that Scott kind of put him on here and making him start to speak specifically about what he doesn't believe about the story. Because Scott kind of left a little incomplete question or just kind of tossed that up. Well, what is it? What is your question? And just kind of started this ball rolling. And there's an increased blink rate when he's saying, when he's denying that he fully believes Candice's story or he doesn't have any questions about it. And there's a single shoulder shrug, which indicates a lack of confidence in what a person is saying right at the end here. And if we scored this on the behavioral table of elements for deception, the score would be a 16 with a score of 11 indicating a likelihood of deception to be high. Does there anything about Candice's story that makes you question the story? No, not the way it played out and everything like that. I mean, yeah, you always have questions. And I asked myself what the way that it happened and her emotions and her state of mind. What were the questions that you had? I mean, I don't really have any. I mean, I question, I don't really have any questions. I mean, you've got some past. You said recently you've had some drug and alcohol things. Maybe who in your life would you think is less than above board that you deal with? Who in life has been above board? Yeah, who's less than above board? Have you ever seen? Oh, nobody that I know of except for our neighbors. And stuff like, you know, I mean, the meth heads and stuff like that and whatever like that. I mean, we're trying to fly right. And we're trying to do the right thing. I get it, man. Life is, I always say life is a challenge between being this and what is underneath. Okay. And let me back up for a minute with the stepsisters. They said they never knew we had a daughter. Two and a half, three years ago, I called my dad and they were there and they were bragging. You know, I was like, they was asking about summer. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you know. And so they said they named one of theirs, Winter. Hmm. So they knew they lied when they said they didn't know. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So in this case, we're asking him just some simple questions. Now I just lost my thought. Sorry. Hit that again. I've lost it entirely. I had something else in my mind. Let me edit that out. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I may have to watch it again. Which one was two? Oh yeah. Who's above board? Here we go. There's some comedy for you. So who's less than above board? You see him. He's like, what are you talking? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. And he does recognition. And he says in his eyes lock as he's saying this, we try to stay above board. Now I know, and he said, I've used drugs. I've done this. I've done that. So he knows some people that are less than above board by my standards. And he's probably interpreting what I'm saying. And so you see him making eye contact. And then he goes back to get out one of the stories that he came there to tell. Because clearly Don had stories he wanted to tell. These are the ghost stories I was talking about. He's going to tell you these stories. So he brings up the stepsisters. And you can see it. You can see a change in his code, in his cadence. He starts off when he's trying to figure out what I'm talking about. Stammering and stuttering and a little slow. Then makes good eye contact. Oh yeah, we try to stay above board. And then goes back into a storytelling mode. That's what I saw. And I just kind of discounted the sister's thing as just something he needed to get out. And that was that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I would agree completely. Again, you've got to be careful you don't get stuck in his soap opera. Because this really is a piece of storytelling here. It's a classic. So you've got stepsisters. So that instantly tells you that they're going to be cast in the bad light. You're going to have a Cinderella character, the symbol of virtue unrecognized, which is the dirty little wave in that summer. And you're going to have territorial aggression. So you've got fighting over the crown, which is the summer and winter battle that he talks about there. So there's some classics in there of a really good soap opera narrative of family breakdowns and territorial aggression. And so it looks a little bit like a side step into that narrative. But I think you're right, Greg. This is a story that he wants to get out. He wants to play that narrative game, that YouTube game, as much as anybody else that he sees himself as battling against that if they're going to make up a story, then I reckon I can tell a good story as well. And I would say it's a classic example because he draws down on a universal narrative instantly. If it were a truer story, there'd be more detail and it wouldn't fit so well that universal narrative. So he just kind of draws down on the classic. And just one last thing is he does that same kind of head turn away and locks eye contact with a challenge gesture there to Greg on this, same as he did with, I think, how do you get to your house? So when he gets confused or maybe more likely is worried about the nature of the question and what is this question really about? We see the aggression come out here. And he wants to sidestep this idea of who he's connected with that don't fly right. So an interesting theme that carries on there, he wants to completely take himself away from the names of the people that call by who don't fly right. There. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right. This is a really interesting one because as we're going through it, he's from the beginning of this, when we started talking to him, he suspects everybody. That's why he's bringing up all these parts about his stepsisters and people from YouTube and this and that. He suspects everybody. I mean, Greg, I don't know how many people, I think I counted up to 12 at one point he was talking about and talked to him the other day and he was suspected. The guys who came and were, you know, didn't suspect him, but he said, Hey, what about these guys that were cutting down the trees in my yard? Could that be the kind of, I'm wondering if that would be. So he's got all these things that say he's concerned and really wondering who did this. That's one thing that stood out to us as we went through this. And so that's the reason he's poking on those stepsisters. He said some bad stuff about him, whether it's true or not, I have an earthly idea. But apparently he's been recanted, but they said so probably not true. Don't know. Don't know that to be fact, but yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's what he told me anyway. So, yeah. So as he's going through this, it's really, for me, it's really simple. He doesn't know exactly where we're going in this yet. I mean, he's got a pretty good idea. But when we start asking questions like this that he's not ready for, why would you ever ask something like that? But he starts associating himself. He's using what's called, it's the same language addicts use. You hear Peter Hyatt talking about that, how people who are addicts will talk that way as well about we try to stay away from, whether I try to do this, it's like we, as a group, try to stay away from those kind of people. That's where I'll stop there to keep short. Chase, what do you got? One thing, we're just talking about the we thing here. Don is, if we divide people into using three types of pronouns in their communication. There are people that use self pronouns, team pronouns, and then others in reference to other people. And Don uses a whole lot of team pronouns, even talking about the church. Our Sunday school, we like to do this. We like to do this. Always speaking about he and Candace as our us, we. Which I think is a pretty good sign for how he feels about his connection to her at the time that he was answering those questions. And right at the beginning of this clip here, you're going to see him close his eyes almost all the way for a minute to process this question and process the data. So he's really going through his mind. He is honest. I think about trying to fly right. I think he's 100% honest. But what we don't know is his definition and his relationship to the words fly right, his relationship to the idea of what that means to him. There's this head nodding that we're seeing here is honest. There's comfortable cadence that he's loping here. He's on message. So whether or not this is rehearsed does not make it deception. We can rehearse true things all day long. This is like our YouTube intros. They're truthful and very, very rehearsed. So he's shaking his head exactly at the point that he's discussing the denial of someone else. So I think this is on message is truthful and in an interrogation scenario and maybe in a regular conversation this may come in handy. But if someone tries to do this big redirection, I'm going to treat this like when he's backing up to talk about his sisters. I will treat that as a denial and I will stop it using the same process. I'll put my hand up and say, Don, I know that's very important to you and I promise we're going to get to that in just a minute and go right back to what we were talking about. The reason I think, I can't speak for him, Scott and Greg did this, is because this is not an interrogation. He's not captive and he can walk out of that room at any time and they're not there to get a confession to a crime per se. They're there to collect data and they're specifically there to collect a whole lot of data as much as possible. That can be analyzed at a later date like we're doing right now. Yeah, I would have been impressed if we got a confession out of a guy in a holiday and conference room. Yeah. Yeah, we knew that. That's what it was. Two. Yeah, that's what it was, guys. We knew there was little chance anybody was going, well, and we didn't know Don from Adam and we'd seen him on TV and that. But it doesn't matter the fact that most people are not going to confess. I think Dr. Phil said people don't confess in a crowd, the same mindset, right? That's the way you got to look at it. You've got some past. You said recently you've had some drug and alcohol things. Maybe who in your life would you think is less than an above board that you deal with? Who in life has been above board? Yeah, who's less than above board? Have you ever heard of saying? Oh, nobody that I know of except for our neighbors and stuff like that and whatever like that. I mean, we're trying to fly right and we're trying to do the right thing. Life is, I would say life is a challenge between being this and what is underneath. Okay, and let me back up for a minute with the stepsisters. They said they never knew we had a daughter. Two and a half, three years ago, I called my dad and they were there. And they were bragging. You know, I was like, they was asking about summer and I was like, yeah, yeah, you know. And so they said they named one of theirs, Winter. So they knew, they lied when they said they didn't know. Yeah. I told you I'm going to have to ask you some hard questions. So what do you say to somebody who says, no, you're involved, your family's involved? How do you respond to that? Well, for three months, I spent on the phone for three months. I accepted every friend request there was. People want, well, I'm your friend, your family, we're good for you. And, you know, for three months, I stayed on the phone day and night trying to find her baby. He says, but your Facebook's the best tool possible to help find her. But there's this group on Facebook combating this the whole time. And we don't know who this group is or what they're up to. All right, Greg, what do you got? So this one bugged the hell out of me. I've watched this one a dozen times. I've poked on this one because it is the most anomalous thing he does through this entire, entire video. I was sitting across from him and thinking, what the hell is this guy talking about? He just shifted gears and went down the path of, I'm on YouTube. I'm doing this. I'm playing around on Facebook. I'm not YouTube, I'm on Facebook. I'm answering every email. I took every friend request. But his body language doesn't look like he's nervous or lying. I was thinking this guy's either like some mastermind, evil genius guy, and he's been playing me the whole time, or I'm missing something. And I watched this video a dozen times probably. And just over all that time, I still couldn't get exactly to what it was. And Scott pinged it. Scott, you want to tell them what you saw? Yeah. So when that happened, Greg and I were both like, oh, you can hear it. If you're in our brains, you hear us go, oh, go, here it is. Still got it now. We looked like brain toll requests. Oh, God, dude, here it comes. And so what happened was this, he didn't understand the question. He thought it was, how do you respond to those people who were saying that on Facebook, in social media? How do you, what do you do to respond to that? Not like if we were to say, so what do you think about when people say that we think you're full of it? What do you think about that? That's the way we're coming. That's the way we thought it was delivered, but it wasn't delivered. But he didn't take it that way in other words. He thought we were saying, how do you respond to those people on Facebook and on YouTube? That's his answer. That's why he goes back to, I joined all these things. Because that's the number one place to find out about a missing child. So he's telling us the things he did to help her. So his brain isn't even going down that road that he might be in trouble for something now. If you had been waiting for that question or on guard, you would have taken that question for the way it was meant. But he didn't. His head wasn't in that space. Because even if you were in there a little bit, you would have been on there and go, hey man, here's what I say. But he took, how do you respond? As how do you respond to those people on Facebook? That's what I've seen it. And after that, man, just booms. Loops right along, tells us everything. Not a whole lot there that's outside of his baseline at all. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, you guys should have called me. Because the moment I saw that, I understood, because I understand the neural type, he missed the spirit of the question. The spirit of the question is, what do you say to anybody on the planet? Nobody specific. But like anybody who says, you probably know what went on here. His brain goes, oh, you're talking about somebody specifically. And it goes, I know specifically who you're talking about. And it locates that specific person and the group they belong to. And starts to recount the story of that and how he's done everything that he could and should do to appease that individual or unnamed unspecified group. You know, the spirit of the question was, what do you say to the kind of person who doesn't believe you? He went, I know the person you're thinking of. Let me tell you everything that I've done to appease this group. So yeah, there are some neural types out there that will take you really quite literally. And he could be part of that group or it could be the pressure of this moment or simply that every question that comes is a Rorschach test. And you just go, well, here's something I want to get off my chest. You know, here's something I want to talk about. Here's what it means to me. And so I'm going to take your question and unconsciously make it the question that would mean that I could give you this answer. But look, you know, the important thing for me is is look how far awry you would go if you took his answer as being him being duplicitous or not telling the truth, or which you could easily mistake it for. If you wanted to, if you didn't take this line that we've taken, which is, well, you just didn't understand the spirit of the question here. Chase, you got anything different from that? Shock us if you can. It sucks, you guys got everything. But I will say, you know, on the just analysis of the behavioral table of elements, if you just use that with no experience, you would have seen hesitancy. You would have seen ambiguity and you would have seen a non-answer. That's not even, that's just his verbal. That's not his body. So you would have seen all those which would have given you a score of 12. Not understanding that he interpreted that as how did you, what did you type back to these people? How did you respond to these people who were making these accusations on the internet? So I think it's fascinating, increased Blink rate at the very beginning is not deception at all. That's him processing like, oh, that's what got me. So when the Blink rate went up and I know he's processing, he doesn't need to process. Well, like, here's what I would say to a person. He needs to process. Here's all the messages and human beings that I've spoken to. And I'm going to make some sort of amalgamated answer for that. And he continues to use team pronouns here. It's our, our group and they and them all throughout the response here. So that's all I got. This is a fascinating clip. You know, and the interesting thing for me is I actually said it two ways because I saw his face when I said, what do you say to? And he kind of had a look and I said, how do you respond? And that's when he seized on the question is what I see now. And when you're asking questions, you try to get through to a person with whatever you see. And I could tell he was a little confused by what I was asking in the very beginning. That was all. But yeah, it's a great catch, Scott. I'm telling you, I'm going to have to ask you some more questions from there. So what do you say to somebody who says, no, you're involved, your family's involved? How do you respond to that? Well, for three months, I spent on the phone for three months. I accepted every friend request there was. People want, well, I'm your friend, your friend, we look forward to you. And, you know, for three months, I stayed on the phone day and night trying to find her baby because that's bigger than you. Facebook's the best tool possible to help find her. And, but there's this group on Facebook combating us the whole time. And we don't know who this group is or what they're up to. Let's let's do this. Chase, put those glasses back on a minute. Let's all decide who Chase looks like, because I know. I don't know. If I got it, it looks like that little mouse. What's that little mouse that wears glasses like that? Oh, Stuart Little. Stuart Little. Stuart Little. Yeah. Now there's going to be a swarm of art coming in from panelists. There will be. There will be. I can't wait. Did you rape your sister? No. Did you rape your niece? No. Did you molest your first son at you? No. Did you threaten to kill him? I can give you, I can give you and my kids his number and we can talk when this is done. Sure. Sure. And we'll talk to him. Sure. Did you threaten to kill him? No. Okay. I want to go last. Okay. Stuart, you want to go first? We're seeing this eye closure which guarantee you if we just aired this without our analysis we'd see a thousand comments of like, oh, there's rapid blinking. He's lying. We're looking at clusters to determine deception. We're looking at multiple things to determine deception. And we've also determined that this blinking is part of his baseline. He's processing data on every single question here. Each denial is rapid. His answer is rapid. He tends to have a lot of latency, which is a time between the end of a question in the beginning, when there is hesitation and when there's doubt and when there's like, I need some time to make something up or I need some time to think through my answer. This eye closure is not enough to say that he's being deceptive. And the only movement here of hesitation is the final denial that he makes on the very final denial, the small retreating motion of the head and some eye closure there. And neither of these would score as deceptive even adding them together would only give you an eight. So this is an excellent masterclass, mini micro masterclass in what we're talking about when we say clusters. Like here's a deceptive behavior. Here's a deceptive behavior. It doesn't mean much. And one of those deceptive behaviors that you might see is something that this person does habitually all the time no matter what they're talking about. So that's when we say baseline is important and probably secondary to baseline is looking at clusters. Scott, what do you got? All right, I'm going to say those first three. That's the last one. So different than those first three questions. Did you threaten to kill them? Oh, all the classics backs up. It says, as he says, no, it goes quieter. It goes, but you see that go up there in the middle. Man, that's when I want to. There's no reasons to lay into that because it doesn't go with what we're dealing with that point. So I laid off it. But that's the one made me get bigger. I want to go, yes, you did. You know, you did. I want to do one of those. But I didn't at that point, but I would have had every right to looking back on it. So I think I agree with Chase 100 percent. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, yeah, I would agree. So clear, confident denial in the in the first lot of them. And within that first lot, he even confronts becomes aggressive, I would say. With with Greg there, like we've seen him get at other times. And then he substantiates his claim. Not a great substantiation. Like, you know, we can go and ask these people, if you like, that's not a huge substantiation. But he does substantiate at that point. He's clearly going to go, look, let's it's not just me that's going to say this. It's other people as well. Ask the community kind of thing. So so that's that's important. But I would agree. We get swallow gesture on the last one. We get slight, slight sour taste there. We get slight head turn on that as well. Yeah, if I were to lay money, has has he threatened in some way to kill somebody in some way at some point? Yeah, probably, probably. But is it important for this situation here? I don't think so. But I think he knows. Yeah, he's he's he's had a he's had a number or he's you know, he's got angry and he said some stuff. And and I think, you know, many of us might fall into that position at some point as well. And if I ask that question, you know, and wanting to say no, we might show some of the same indicators as well. Greg, what are your thoughts on this one? Yeah, so this is a really good one for me. We always say that people can have more than one way of dealing with folks in a situation. What I think we're seeing here is Don dealing with authority where he perceives us to be authority or whatever it is. And he is very kind and polite and quiet. I guarantee you, and this is not just Don, this is everybody, there's another side we are not seeing here that swallow before he gets to that question. These are nasty questions. And if you think he's responding by his blinker that coming, any one of you just show up and let me poke you and ask you, did you do this? Did you do that? We tell you all the time that people get angry when they're accused of something they didn't do. And we can see a little bit of that and that rise and his respiration, a little bit of that. Just pay attention to him. And you'll see just a little edge rising Don at this point. I could see it there. And then I agree with you, Scott, and with you, what were the three of you, when he gets to that fourth question and he goes, no, something sounds odd and off. And I agree with you, Mark, did you threaten to kill him? It could mean I'm going to kill you if you keep that up. It could mean no, I'm going to come out there and kill you. We know that he can rant and rave. You can find him on YouTube and doing that kind of thing. But every person can when pushed to a point, I'm not defending him, but saying, I can see the other person behind there. And Don's not a little fella. He's a good size fella. So he's probably been accustomed and he works with his hands. He's probably been accustomed to being physical in his life and he had to make it through. As he told us in the very beginning of the story, I was raised in county jails. So he had to be relatively tough in his life. And I would bet with the right amount of pushing, I could get a little bit more aggression out of him. And I could sense that sitting across from him and asking these very ugly questions. And I agree with you. He went and said, we'll call my kids. He didn't say we'll call my other accusers because they're accusing. They're also accusing him of doing something to his kids. But he said my kids will tell you that didn't happen. And so there, I'll leave it at that. Did you rape your sister? No. Did you rape your niece? No. Did you molest your first son-in-law? No. Did you threaten to kill him? I can give you, I can give you my kids his number and we can talk when this is done. Sure, sure. And we'll talk to him. Sure. Did you threaten to kill him? No. All right, here we go. Do you know where Summer is? I don't know. I wish I did. Any earthly idea of what happened to her? No, I wish I did. Do you think Candace had anything to do with him? No. And what about this, anything? What might have happened to her was what? She was kidnapped. Yeah. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, very simple. She was kidnapped, seems very assured of that. Downward intonation on that. The eye contact that he has on that, really, really assured. So I'm just going to leave it at that. I've got a question about it. Any earthly idea what happened to her? And then we get this eye flutter on that. And I don't know what that might be about. So I'm kind of interested what ideas on that. Chase, what do you think? Any answer for me on that eye flutter just after any earthly idea what happened? No, I think he's processing data. I think an eye flutter wouldn't mean very much. Did you want me to go as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm done. I mean, it's just assured for me. That's the only question I have in that one. Okay, so his eye closure here, if we're just going to stick on that, is different in the question about Candice. In every other question throughout the entire video, even the clips that we're not looking at here with you, his eyes flutter when talking about Candice, they shut. They are shut down. And each of his denials contain multi-syllables there are high frequency tones, there's low frequency tones, so there's tonal fluctuation in his voice. And when it comes time to talk about Candice, Scott asked him about Candice and Scott gives, you gave him time to talk. You didn't, you didn't just let him say one thing. There's plenty, there's a huge window time for him to talk. So there's no frequency, no highs and lows, one syllable, one word answer. And it's a downward tone, which is the opposite of him talking about being kidnapped. And this stands out as being so different that this is a huge red flag. His eyebrows move and communicate in every single denial, except for the one about Candice. His head shakes slowed down and was more deliberate when it came down to talking or denying, when he's speaking about Candice. And his no turned into a nah more when he was making that denial about Candice. And he nods his head, yes, while saying that she was kidnapped, which goes with his baseline behavior, is in that he believes it and that he agrees with that statement. So I will say the, there is, I'll just say, I would suggest that there is a very high likelihood for deception around the question that Scott, you specifically asked about Candice. And I'll let you talk about that. All right. My concern with this at first was when I said, do you know what happened to her? And he said, no, I wish I did. Now, a lot of times you'll hear parents say, I wish I did after that. No, I wish I did. That's fairly common. If you go through these people that are there, ask that question. And when we got to the end, I said, what is it you think that happened to her? And I was saying these things not like, so what do you think happened to her? It was, they're very wide as I'm asking them. So he has to take them in a word at a time and almost guess what I'm going to say next, so we can get that reaction once it dawns on him. That's the part that bothered me when he said she was kidnapped. Greg has a great take on that specifically. But I think later on we get into a situation where, as he goes through, we still aren't confident that he believes Candice. And from my perception of what's going on, I'm not so sure he believes what she's saying, because what Chase, what you were saying, you've covered everything on that. So yeah, the eye and her eye blinks and her eye blocking at that point plays a huge part in that, huge part in that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, there's a difference in Chase. You're on to exactly what I was hearing. Everything else, there's the no, no. If you just listen, it's a grunt almost when he comes out about Candice, and I had the same suspicions. And the last one, I'm going to leave everything else off and just talk about the last one. Kidnapped is the first time we hear this word. He's used the word abducted before. Kidnapped is not the same as abducted. Kidnapped usually comes along with a request for something in exchange for the person. Most all humans think that. We watch TV. We know, now, could it be that it's a subtlety wasted on Don? Could be, but when I heard that word, my brain went ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, because I'm a hammer and nails are there. And I worked anti-terror through my life. Kidnapping means something. There's a reason. It's political. It's economic. He has nothing political to offer. So what in his head does he think kidnapping means? And then along with that Candice thing, it just raised all of my red flags. Now, does that mean that he intentionally did that? Don't know. Did he say kidnapping versus abduction he said in other places? Don't know. Does he know the difference? Don't know. We didn't get to that level of nuance. The last thing I'll leave you with is, when you're talking about someone you have a very tightly bonded relationship with and they've been together for a long time, your tone may be different when you're talking about them. If I ask Scott about Amber, his tone will be different than if I ask him about Chase, for example, because you never know about that. You never know. I don't know about your guys' relationship outside of work. We're very close. Chase and I are very close. Do you know where Summer is? I don't know. I wish I did. Do you have any idea what happened to her? No. I wish I did. Do you think Candice had anything to do with him? No. And what about this, and you think what might have happened to her was what? She was getting out. Yeah. Right. Great. All right. Now let's run around the room really quickly and we'll all give 30 seconds or less of what we think happened. We'll go to Mark, we'll go to Sweetie Pie, then we'll go to Greg, and we'll see where we end up there. Yeah. So, you know, what comes out of this for me is how easily he gets wound up in this soap opera that's going on concurrently with the search for Summer Wells. And I think it's quite easy for us to get wound up in that soap opera. What I take away from this is to try not to do that and try and stick to the more factual elements that we can see around us. So really, you know, this whole thing is just a lesson for me in saying can we keep things a little bit narrower and not widen it out into this extraordinary soap opera with stepsisters and all kinds of and YouTubers and Facebook and all these people involved and narrow it a little more down because I think that's where we're going to find the real issues here. When I look through the whole of the interview, I do get interested by how unsecure that area is and all the people who come up with, for all kinds of reasons, looking for her, that's where my nose would be going right now towards that. Not so much on Don. It could be wrong. Chase, your thoughts. This video really illustrates the importance of understanding microcultures and cultural differences in people. This is the reason that we baseline human beings. And when we hear these phrases like got gone and things like that, I didn't know until very recently that that's common along that entire part of the country that's a super common phrase. My mistake, I'm open to admit all that stuff because that's part of what we're understanding when we're talking to somebody that's in a microculture. We're also talking to a person with a checkered past that everyone will use to paint the future. I'm going to dip my finger in this past. I'm going to start to just paint the future. I don't be very certain about what's going on. I think that in my opinion that Don Wells is mostly honest and I think that there is a tremendous amount of doubt or uncertainty at a minimum with Candice's story or her level of involvement or her knowledge of what actually took place. And maybe there's some knowledge there. I think I went over 30 seconds. I apologize. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is one of those great opportunities for you to take away your bias. I'm going to tell you when I went there, the guy has a background. We know he has a background. He may even still be doing some things that you may or may not agree with. I'm not talking to any of that. I went there with one purpose in mind. I wanted to know what he knew about Summer Wells, what this whole thing is about and whether he was involved in the disappearance of Summer Wells. I'll tell you, based on his baseline, which we went through a lot of process to discover, pushing him into corner with some simple questions that he had no reason to lie about that caused stress and looking for that stress level to rise and then finally going right to the point and hammering and seeing him emotional about this kid the day before, I'm going to tell you, I don't believe he's involved in her disappearance. Could I be wrong? Sure. But based on everything I saw, face to face, based on everything I felt and saw and learned and thought and listened by watching and listening to his baseline and looking for deviation at the key moments, I don't think he's involved. Scott, what do you got? I agree with you, Greg. I don't think he is either. Having been there with him, I agree 100% with you. I don't think he was involved at all. He didn't answer through questions correctly to be involved as far as that goes. But I agree with you guys. This is a perfect example of, it's a great example of being able to not only watch somebody be questioned and interviewed, but be able to get the other side of the people who are interviewing it, give you their side of it as well, why we ask questions this way, why our approach was a certain way, why we were quiet here, why are we getting a little bit louder and other parts, which I think we're going to do. Are we going to do a part, next part two of this, you guys? I'm for it. Sure, we still got something to do. We should keep bringing it up until we find summer. Sure. Okay. Yeah, because they're going to find out what happened. And now, and I agree with Greg. I don't think he had anything to do with it. So at the same time, I don't think, I don't think he believes Candace or her story on that, whatever it is, you know, I guess from the TV interviews. So I think it's a great example to be able to see someone be interviewed and also get the input from people who interviewed that person and why they did it and give you an insight as to what we're thinking is to get those questions asked and to elicit those answers from them. All right. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe. All I got to do is get that little red thing down there and then hit the bell so it lets you know when we have a new one come out. I just want to say a quick thanks to Dr. Phil and the entire Paramount team here. I'm in LA. I'm staying in a really nice hotel with really crappy Wi-Fi. I texted Dr. Phil last night and he had all of this stuff set up. The producers are in here and let me kind of just borrow his little filming area. So I do want to give a shout out to Dr. Phil and the entire team here for letting me come crash the studio. Yeah, nice. Hey, can I add one thing? Guys, everybody listening. You, Summer Wells, post that photo, get her picture. I mean, we know it's in a lot of places. Get her picture everywhere. There's a little kid and she's missing still. Do what you can to find her. Yeah. Also, Greg and I got our flu shots just to chase us right over there a couple of days ago. We were there and Dr. Phil was like, you fellas want flu shots? He was getting more like, yeah, we'll do flu shots. So we got our flu shots there as well. Scott cried. He's a doctor. He's a doctor. That's right. He is a doctor. Scott cried. So it doesn't matter what happened. My reaction to it. All right. Well, thank you so much for being with us. And this is a good one, fellas. We'll see you next time. See you.